H2SO4 to battery acid
Karl Townsend
I have sulfuric acid 60 degree Baum. Almost pure stuff. How much do I let
it down to make battery acid? I don't have titration equipment, any way to
check its the right strength?
Also, IIRC, you always add water to concentrated acid, not the other way,
right?
Karl
Christopher Tidy
> Also, IIRC, you always add water to concentrated acid, not the other way,
> right?
I'm pretty sure you've got that the wrong way round.
Chris
Andrew Mawson
"Christopher Tidy" <cdt22...@cantabgold.net> wrote in message
news:465CAC73...@cantabgold.net...
"Do what you 'aughter, always ADD THE ACID TO THE WATER"
Beaten into me as a child in chemistry lessons when they taught useful
things at school
(The theory behind this is simple: the dilution of acids is
exothermic, ie it gives off heat, so start will a large mass of cool
water to absorb a relatively small amount of heat from small amounts
of acid, this way the water doesn't boil and spit at you)
AWEM
Pete C.
Also battery acid is very inexpensive at the auto parts store. I got
5gal for like $15 for my anodizing line. Don't waste the good stuff,
just go spend a few dollars for the pre mix and save the pure for
something worthy of it.
Pete C.
Karl Townsend
> Also battery acid is very inexpensive at the auto parts store. I got
> 5gal for like $15 for my anodizing line. Don't waste the good stuff,
> just go spend a few dollars for the pre mix and save the pure for
> something worthy of it.
If its a big deal, I'll do just that. But, I've got two 5 gal carboys of the
pure stuff that have been sitting around for more than ten years with no
use. If soembody knows how much to let it down, it should only take a few
minutes.
Karl
Tim Wescott
solution out of the reaction vessel and onto you, instead of _really_
_concentrated_ stuff.
Come to think of it, wear those funny goggles and an apron -- maybe a
face shield, too. Remember that evolution rewards those who don't let
their balls get burnt off.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/
Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
David Billington
Karl Townsend wrote:
Acid to water. I was told that the Sulphuric has such an affinity for
water it will jump towards it, that and considerable heat may be
liberated causing local boiling with potential consequent splashing.
>
john
Karl Townsend wrote:
Yup always add acid to the water.... Heat is created and will boil the
water if the water is dripped into the acid.
From moy old high school science teacher... do what you ought to put
the acid in the water, ( my addition) or be a bastaad and put the
water in the acid.
I would get a battery hydrometer and use that to test the concentration.
the specific gravity will vary depending on the battery mfgr. when you
get a new battery with the acid separate, the way aircraft batterys
usually come. You want the hydrometer to read a full changed condition
or have the float at the highest point out of the liquid.
State of Charge Specific Gravity Voltage
12V 6V
100% 1.265 12.7 6.3
*75% 1.225 12.4 6.2
50% 1.190 12.2 6.1
25% 1.155 12.0 6.0
Discharged 1.120 11.9 6.0
You could take a small measured amount of distilled water and start
adding a measured amount of acid to it until you get a full charge
reading on the hydrometer. Then extrapolate and mix up enough for your
battery.
John
clareatsnyder.on.ca
NO!!!!. Always add acid to water, and measure acid strength by
measuring Specific Gravity. You want about 1.25 to 1.26, depending on
the battery.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Mike Henry
"David Billington" <d...@djbillington.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:465CA710...@djbillington.freeserve.co.uk...
And add the acid slowly with gentle mixing. Depending on circumstances,
enough heat can be liberated to soften a plastic bottle so watch out for
that possibility, too.
Mike
Mike Henry
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:N027i.20497$3P3....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
The pure sulfuric we buy for the lab is 98%. I'm not familiar with the
Baume system, but that and Google may give you a start on dilution ratios.
Mike
not today
<karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
what do ya mean by rebuilding?????? How old is the battery? Is it
sulfated? Does it open under a load? I repair forklift
batteries at work and was just wondering. May be that buying a used
cell would be your best bet.
Cydrome Leader
That's backwards as others mentioned. I was taught
AAA
Always Add Acid.
Richard J Kinch
> I have sulfuric acid 60 degree Baum. Almost pure stuff. How much do I
> let it down to make battery acid?
You mean Baume. It's a specific gravity measure, not a molar
concentration. Get a hydrometer and dilute with that to the target
specific gravity.
Richard J Kinch
> Get a hydrometer and dilute with that to the target
> specific gravity.
Oh, and to convert heavy degrees Baume ("Be") to SG:
SG = 145/(145-Be)
So 60 deg Be = 1.706 SG.
Dilution to battery acid SG left as an exercise for the 5th graders.
Don Foreman
Why do you do that, Dr. Kinch? You have the knowledge and education
to directly answer Karl's question, why don't you just do that rather
than present an exercise?
whit3rd
wrote:
> I'm going to try to rebuild one cell in my forklift battery...
>
> it down to make battery acid?
Baume relates to specific gravity, the formula is
Baume :== 145 - (145/sp. gr.)
66 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.8354 = 93.19 percent H2SO4 by wt.
60 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.7059 = 77.67 percent H2SO4 by wt.
31 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.2609 = 35.93 percent H2SO4 by wt.
(all this from tabulations in my trusty Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics)
The 31 Baume concentration is correct for a fully-charged lead-acid
battery.
Roughly, to a pound of your acid, add X pounds of distilled water to
get
0.3593 = (.7767 )/(X + (1-.7767))
which is the correct target dilution with X = 1.94
All this can be checked by measuring the specific gravity of the acid
after dilution. Or during, if you just want to mix/measure/remix.
Bushy Pete
>> I'm going to try to rebuild one cell in my forklift battery...
>>
>> I have sulfuric acid 60degreeBaum. Almost pure stuff. How much do I let
>> it down to make battery acid?
Another tip to the original poster, or anyone else that is adding acid to
water:
The size of the forklift battery will mean a large volume of acid has to be
made up, so do the dilution over a period of time. Allow a few minutes for
the mixture to even out in temperature. You can see the different liquids
mixing and a distortion layer that is the mixing acid, water and different
temperature zones.
As a student we were making up a bright acid dip for cleaning metal, and we
were mixing up about 2 litres of water, 2 litres of sulphuric acid and 2
litres of nitric acid and pouring the acid into the large glass dish half
full of water caused the heating mixture to heat quicker than the glass dish
which proceeded to crack around the bottom edge and we all watched it split
and allow all the acid mixture to run down the side of the wooden box we
were working over and onto the ground. If we had allowed ten minutes halfway
through adding the acid, for the temperature to level out we wouldn't have
made the mess. It would be a good idea to do this sort of work outside, as
the acid will make a mess of concrete or whatever floor you have inside your
workshop. Luckily we did this outside on the lawn, and although it killed a
bit of grass, the spilt acid was neutralised by the soil reactions......
Hope this helps,
Peter
Karl Townsend
>>Dilution to battery acid SG left as an exercise for the 5th graders.
>
> Why do you do that, Dr. Kinch? You have the knowledge and education
> to directly answer Karl's question, why don't you just do that rather
> than present an exercise?
I've heard there's a new TV show about what a 5th grader can do that I
can't, I guess I'll have to start watching it.
karl
Karl Townsend
...
> Baume relates to specific gravity, the formula is
>
> Baume :== 145 - (145/sp. gr.)
>
> 66 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.8354 = 93.19 percent H2SO4 by wt.
> 60 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.7059 = 77.67 percent H2SO4 by wt.
> 31 Baume = Sp. Gr. 1.2609 = 35.93 percent H2SO4 by wt.
>
> (all this from tabulations in my trusty Handbook of Chemistry and
> Physics)
>
> The 31 Baume concentration is correct for a fully-charged lead-acid
> battery.
>
> Roughly, to a pound of your acid, add X pounds of distilled water to
> get
>
> 0.3593 = (.7767 )/(X + (1-.7767))
>
> which is the correct target dilution with X = 1.94
>
> All this can be checked by measuring the specific gravity of the acid
> after dilution. Or during, if you just want to mix/measure/remix.
BINGO
Many thanks, I'll get a battery SG tester and go to work.
My forklift battery can be disassembled, one cell is obviously very bad.
I'll try cleaning and regenerating it per the instructions in the FAQ link
that Gunner just posted.
Karl
Ecnerwal
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> Also, IIRC, you always add water to concentrated acid, not the other way,
> right?
Wrong.
Do as you oughta, add acid to water.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Robert Swinney
"> Why do you do that, Dr. Kinch? You have the knowledge and education
> to directly answer Karl's question, why don't you just do that rather
> than present an exercise?"
Errrr, Don. Aren't you familiar with the old saw, "There are those that
write to inform and then there are those that write to impress" Wanna guess
?
Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:v86q53pjjmrcf95on...@4ax.com...
dca...@krl.org
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:
> (The theory behind this is simple: the dilution of acids is
> exothermic, ie it gives off heat, so start will a large mass of cool
> water to absorb a relatively small amount of heat from small amounts
> of acid, this way the water doesn't boil and spit at you)
>
> AWEM
I think that part of the reason is that the acid is much heavier than
the water. So if you pour acid into water the acid sinks into the
middle. If you pour water into acid, the water floats on top, boils,
and spits at you.
Dan
*
Karl Townsend <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in article
<G217i.11448$296....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> right?
>
"Always do it the way that you oughta'
Whenever you're mixing, pour acid into water."
> Karl
>
>
>
ala...@iinet.net.oz
I am way out of date, been retired for 12 years, I think it is 40%
but I am probably wrong.
I used to dilute the concentrate to 25% for my analysis, 1 litre
acid to 3 of distilled water. Add ACID to WATER, very slowly, with
stirring, it should take about 30 minutes for 4 litres, just over 1 US
micro gallon (~3.8 l) and the temperature will get to about 50 C. I
had everything set up with a magnetic stirrer as it was a twice a week
job, first am, cool & useable by lunch time.
.
Alan, in Gosnells, Western Oz.
VK6 YAB VKS 737 - W 6174
Roger Shoaf
I am no Chemist, but it looks to me like you need to mix just shy of 2 parts
water to your acid for the proper dilution.
I would probably rely on the hydrometer and sneak up on the proper dilution.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitriol
==========================================
Although nearly 100% sulfuric acid can be made, this loses SO3 at the
boiling point to produce 98.3% acid. The 98% grade is more stable in
storage, and is the usual form of what is described as concentrated sulfuric
acid. Other concentrations are used for different purposes. Some common
concentrations are
* 10%, dilute sulfuric acid for laboratory use,
* 33.5%, battery acid (used in lead-acid batteries),
* 62.18%, chamber or fertilizer acid,
* 77.67%, tower or Glover acid,
* 98%, concentrated acid.
===========================================
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:G217i.11448$296....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Loren Amelang
wrote:
>Karl Townsend wrote:
>
>> I'm going to try to rebuild one cell in my forklift battery...
>I would get a battery hydrometer and use that to test the concentration.
>the specific gravity will vary depending on the battery mfgr.
There is another factor... The specific gravity of the liquid in a
flooded battery depends on the state of charge (which is what most
people use a hydrometer to measure). With the battery fully charged,
the SG is somewhere around 1.260, depending on the specific mix of
active metals in the plates. With the battery discharged, the SG is
lower, and the weight that was formerly part of the acid is now part
of the metal.
Normally, if you fully recharge the battery, the weight moves back to
the liquid and the SG is restored to nominal. That's why you normally
only add pure water to make up liquid losses.
On the other hand, when they make a new battery out of raw metal
plates, the positive and negative plates start with the same initial
composition. They get polarized through an ugly process of repeatedly
replacing the liquid with strong acid and charging the battery. So if
your particular cell's problem is chemical, it might be possible to
rejuvenate it somewhat by changing the acid and charging it strongly.
But... I wouldn't want to subject all the other cells to the charging
process it would take to try to rebuild capacity in the bad one. And I
would probably use much stronger than the specified acid during the
"rejuvenation" process. However strong it is when you pour it in, if
the process accomplishes anything its SG will change, and you will
need to dump it and install the specified SG acid when the
rejuvenation is complete.
Loren
(Who would try to find a used cell of similar construction and age...)
John Martin
>
> I think that part of the reason is that the acid is much heavier than
> the water. So if you pour acid into water the acid sinks into the
> middle. If you pour water into acid, the water floats on top, boils,
> and spits at you.
>
> Dan
Either way you do it, it can boil and throw some of the liquid back at
you.
Pour water into acid, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
mostly water with some acid in it.
Pour acid into water, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
mostly acid with some water in it.
Your choice.
John Martin
Rich Grise
> I'm going to try to rebuild one cell in my forklift battery...
>
> I have sulfuric acid 60 degree Baum. Almost pure stuff. How much do I let
> it down to make battery acid? I don't have titration equipment, any way to
> check its the right strength?
>
> Also, IIRC, you always add water to concentrated acid, not the other way,
> right?
>
I'd recommend against trying to repair a lead-acid battery without
diagnosing what caused the cell to fail in the first place. If it's
sulfated, there's nothing you can do. If it's shorted, there's nothing
you can do.
Seriously, I'd talk to your local battery guy and find out if the lead in
the broken one has any trade-in value - screwing around with a battery
like that could cause damage above and beyond just ruining the battery
worse.
Please, be safe.
Thanks,
Rich
Richard J Kinch
> Aren't you familiar with the old saw, "There are those that
> write to inform and then there are those that write to impress"
Which is neither informative or impressive. Is there another pigeonhole
for those like you?
Doug Miller
>Either way you do it, it can boil and throw some of the liquid back at
>you.
>
>Pour water into acid, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
>mostly water with some acid in it.
>
>Pour acid into water, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
>mostly acid with some water in it.
>
>Your choice.
Sorry, but that is completely incorrect -- and dangerous to boot, because you
falsely suggest that it doesn't matter. The danger of boiling-induced spatter
when you add acid to water (the proper way) is so small as to be almost
insignificant. The other way around, though (adding water to acid) is actively
dangerous.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
John Martin
> In article <1180557137.253109.196...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, John Martin <jmartin...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Either way you do it, it can boil and throw some of the liquid back at
> >you.
>
> >Pour water into acid, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
> >mostly water with some acid in it.
>
> >Pour acid into water, and what it'll throw back in your face will be
> >mostly acid with some water in it.
>
> >Your choice.
>
> Sorry, but that is completely incorrect -- and dangerous to boot, because you
> falsely suggest that it doesn't matter. The danger of boiling-induced spatter
> when you add acid to water (the proper way) is so small as to be almost
> insignificant. The other way around, though (adding water to acid) is actively
> dangerous.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
You're right - somehow I reversed it while typing.
Pour acid into water, and what you'll get in your face will be mostly
water with some acid in it.
Pour water into acid, and what you'll get in your face will be mostly
acid with some water in it.
>From there, it is your choice. I know which I'd pick.
John Martin
Don Foreman
Dr. Kinch take note: this is what a responsive post looks like.
Applicable knowledge responsively and thoughtfully applied to the
query to get 'er done.
Well done, whit3rd. You set a good example.
Harold and Susan Vordos
"John Martin" <jmart...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180570006.3...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
If you've worked with H2SO4 (I have, in refining gold), you probably know
that it liberates one hell of a lot of heat when you mix it in water.
You make it sound like you'll get a little splashing-----which is not how it
goes, especially if you get stupid and dump the acid in quickly, in volume.
What happens is a rapid (often violent) evolution of steam. A steam
explosion.
Can't speak for you, but whether it's acid with a little water in it, or
water with a little acid in it, I don't want it in my face------not
now-----not ever. Great care should be used when mixing sulfuric acid
with water----even when done properly. There are acids that can be mixed
with water, or water with them, with no consequences. Sulfuric isn't one of
them.
Harold
Harold and Susan Vordos
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
news:v86q53pjjmrcf95on...@4ax.com...
That's easy to answer. He's an ass.
Harold
Harold and Susan Vordos
"Richard J Kinch" <ki...@truetex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9940B76E31B...@216.196.97.131...
Stay off his back, dick kink. For that matter, go play in the quicksand.
Harold
Harold and Susan Vordos
"Don Foreman" <dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote in message
Indeed! Well done.
Harold
Richard J Kinch
> Dr. Kinch take note: this is what a responsive post looks like.
Sorry. Thought a few key facts would inform the OP. Didn't know
"responsive" was "work out every last detail to four decimal places."
{Give,Teach} a man {a,to} fish, etc.
[CAUTION: waggish quotation of this trite proverb incorporates elision.
May not be sufficiently "responsive" for culturally feeble or public-
schooled persons.]
Richard J Kinch
>> You have the knowledge and education
>> to directly answer Karl's question, why don't you just do that rather
>> than present an exercise?
> That's easy to answer. He's an ass.
Quiet, you bilious grudge. Direct answers are rarely the best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
Matthew 13:34
Doug Miller
If only you had a *reason* to be so arrogant...
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Don Foreman
I know that one, hey! "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach
a man to fish, he'll go into debt for a bassboat, be gone every
weekend and come home stinkin' drunk."
Don Foreman
Depends a bit on the nature of the question, doen't it. Mm, yes.
"Are you hungry?" "Hunger is a relative thing in one's pyramid of
needs per Mazlov." "Cool, got plenty of gas so we'll mush on 4 more
hours to Fargo."
Karl Townsend
> I know that one, hey! "Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach
> a man to fish, he'll go into debt for a bassboat, be gone every
> weekend and come home stinkin' drunk."
Bassboat? Heck no. I'm a getting a center console deep sea fishin' boat. Or
least dreamin' about one every day.
Karl
MadD...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> I'm going to try to rebuild one cell in my forklift battery...
>
> it down to make battery acid? I don't have titration equipment, any way to
> check its the right strength?
>
> Also, IIRC, you always add water to concentrated acid, not the other way,
> right?
>
Karl,
1. Allways add acid to water not the other way round.
2. Get a battery tester, (hygrometer type), they're cheap.
3. Get a glass thermometer. (Also cheap.)
4.To cold DISTILLED water, (about 2/3 what you'll need in volume),
add acid slowly, with stirring. Check periodically with the tester.
The water will heat up. Let it cool.
When it reads 'charged` at about 68-70 Deg. F. water temp. your mix is
good.
MadDog