Dremel Versatip for Soldering Stained Glass
Philip Lewis
1000+ deg (F i assume) temps, which should be plenty to solder, but
i'm a bit worried that it only has a 30W heating element.
I'm new to stained glass (all but cemented my first piece) and found
my pencil iron is not up to the task... needs more thermal mass.
I worry that the Versatip might be the same.
Has anyone used this tool to solder ca(l)me? What is your opinion?
--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")
Michele Blank
studio soldering iron myself, 100W. Others here prefer other brands but mine
runs about 20$ wholesale.m
"Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:qvjvez2...@unix42.andrew.cmu.edu...
Philip Lewis
>Why not just get the tool intended for the task?
Being the frugal sort, I like to get tools which are multipurpose.
*Especially* since i'm new to this craft, and don't know how long
I'll stick with it. The versatip comes with 5(?) tips and runs around
20-25... so for roughly the same price, i'd be getting more
functionality... thus a better value. (But only if it works)
>I like the inland brand studio soldering iron myself, 100W.
Good to know... I think that's what my instructor carries at her shop.
If I go with it, I'll probably build my own rheostat... or more likely
build a triac based one. ;)
Charles Spitzer
i used a standard dimmer light switch to build one for under $5.
Philip Lewis
> If I go with it, I'll probably build my own rheostat... or more likely
> build a triac based one. ;)
"Charles Spitzer" <charlie...@nospam.stratus.com> writes:
>i used a standard dimmer light switch to build one for under $5.
Yup, that would be the "triac based" one of which i spake. ;)
I couldn't believe that folks would pay for what I've seen them sold.
My project would cost around $10 and would be comprised of:
double wide metal junction box, dimmer, and split electrical
receptical. (one dimmed, one passthrough)
I should make a web page so other folks could do it as well.
Javahut
> "Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote
>> If I go with it, I'll probably build my own rheostat... or more likely
>> build a triac based one. ;)
>
> "Charles Spitzer" <charlie...@nospam.stratus.com> writes:
>>i used a standard dimmer light switch to build one for under $5.
>
> Yup, that would be the "triac based" one of which i spake. ;)
>
> I couldn't believe that folks would pay for what I've seen them sold.
>
> My project would cost around $10 and would be comprised of:
> double wide metal junction box, dimmer, and split electrical
> receptical. (one dimmed, one passthrough)
>
> I should make a web page so other folks could do it as well.
>
started in the late 70's, but the power is not uniform across the curve of
"dimming" range of the switch. Watch what it does with a light bulb. You
turn it down 1/4 of the turn and the bulb is down more than a 1/4 of
brightness. which alone is no big deal. But having this crutch prevents a
person from learning to solder to their abilities. More practice, the
better you get. My iron plugs into the wall outlet, the dimmer is useless
after a short practice time.
Philip Lewis
>Well, it wouldn't be anything particularly "new", we used them back when I
>started in the late 70's, but the power is not uniform across the curve of
>"dimming" range of the switch.
probably go for the most heavy duty one i can find... and it's likely
that it will *need* to be brought down in temp, lest i start melting
ca(l)me.
>this [...] prevents a person from learning to solder [...]
>More practice, the better you get.
>[...]the dimmer is useless after a short practice time.
so you're saying that full temp iron is ok to use if you know what you
are doing? My piece was had quite a few joints, and yes i was better
as the night went on... but i have a long way to go... esp "moving"
the solder to fill corners and less than perfect joints.
I was thinking of getting a 6' piece and just cutting it every inch or
so to practice the rejoin process... trying to convince myself that
it's not "wasting" it. Might be better to just do another piece. ;)
I have a friend who might enjoy a prairie style...
Moonraker
> I was thinking of getting a 6' piece and just cutting it every inch or
> so to practice the rejoin process... trying to convince myself that
> it's not "wasting" it.
If a $2.50 piece of lead is standing in your way of learning a technique,
methinks your priorities are messed up.
Javahut
> "Javahut" <not...@nowhere.org> writes:
> >Well, it wouldn't be anything particularly "new", we used them back when
I
> >started in the late 70's, but the power is not uniform across the curve
of
> >"dimming" range of the switch.
> yes.. non linear dimming i understand... but if i get an iron, I'll
> probably go for the most heavy duty one i can find... and it's likely
> that it will *need* to be brought down in temp, lest i start melting
> ca(l)me.
>
>
> >this [...] prevents a person from learning to solder [...]
> >More practice, the better you get.
> >[...]the dimmer is useless after a short practice time.
> so you're saying that full temp iron is ok to use if you know what you
> are doing? My piece was had quite a few joints, and yes i was better
> as the night went on... but i have a long way to go... esp "moving"
> the solder to fill corners and less than perfect joints.
> I was thinking of getting a 6' piece and just cutting it every inch or
> so to practice the rejoin process... trying to convince myself that
> it's not "wasting" it. Might be better to just do another piece. ;)
>
> I have a friend who might enjoy a prairie style...
or a diamond pattern cabinet door, something that won't be a waste, but a
learning tool.
The full temp of the iron is only a shock to the first joint, as heat is
drawn out of the tip to execute the task, the iron has to keep up, you move
to the next joint quicker and the iron is working as a tool, not heating the
room sitting on a rest. The only time we use a controller is when doing
sculptural solder with 63/37. Which is not often....
Philip Lewis
>If a $2.50 piece of lead is standing in your way of learning a technique,
>methinks your priorities are messed up.
not particularly nice waste..... Hmmm... I could always take up
casting and melt it into figurines. ;)
"Javahut" <not...@nowhere.net> writes:
>The full temp of the iron is only a shock to the first joint, as heat is
>drawn out of the tip to execute the task, the iron has to keep up, you move
yup... technically a 10W iron could probably work, but the tips are
small and have no thermal mass, and the heating element cannot keep up
with the process. This is why i was wondering about the dremel
tool... can it keep up with the task.
If I really wanted to be cheap, I'd use the traditional iron I
have. big fat tip you heat with external heat source. ;)
Andy Dingley
<flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Being the frugal sort, I like to get tools which are multipurpose.
I can't afford "multipurpose" tools, I have to buy ones that work.
Philip Lewis
><flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>Being the frugal sort, I like to get tools which are multipurpose.
>I can't afford "multipurpose" tools, I have to buy ones that work.
Which is why, of course, I'm investigating the suitability of said
tool.
Have you never used a screwdriver bit, wire wheel, buffing wheel, or
sanding disk in a drill?
Rotary motion is Rotary motion. If the drill was made so that only
special "drill" bits could be made to turn in them, it would suck
mightily. I realize, however, that a drill does not have the correct
parameters (speed) for doing routing operations. I therefore have a
router as well.
Heat is heat... A device which allows for changing the way that heat
is applied to the enviroment, has more use. I'm asking for experience
as to whether this tool has the correct parameters. (in this case,
thermal mass, tip size, and/or speedy recovery)
I'll grant that there is also the argument that having the "right"
tool for the job might contribute to my continuing the craft,
and I can appreciate buying a special purpose tool when i'm going to
be using it constantly, but I've just started this craft. I've made
1 window so far... If I buy a new iron for $20 and never make another
window, I'm out $20 and the storage space of the iron. (I already have
a high wattage solder gun, and a low wattage pencil iron for
electrical work) If i buy the multipurpose tool, I'll still be out the
$20, but I'll have a tool useful for woodburning, cutting foam, etc.
If I find the tool adequate, but not a "dream" with which to work and
I find myself making lots of windows, then I might splurge for the
single purpose tool.
Can you say that this tool will *not* work?
If you have experience with this tool, I'd love to hear it.
(any experience, soldering and/or it's other functions.)
--
Thanks, and be safe.
flip
JK@work
> I was thinking of getting it for doing stained glass. The tool touts
> 1000+ deg (F i assume) temps, which should be plenty to solder, but
> i'm a bit worried that it only has a 30W heating element.
>
> I'm new to stained glass (all but cemented my first piece) and found
> my pencil iron is not up to the task... needs more thermal mass.
>
> I worry that the Versatip might be the same.
>
> Has anyone used this tool to solder ca(l)me? What is your opinion?
>
> --
> be safe.
> flip
I admire the folks that attempt to change and improve the world. The
problem you'll have with SG is that we've been doing it for 1000 years
pretty much the same way. I have students bring in their Home Depot bargain
tools and home made gadgets, and we all watch them basically not do as well
as with the tools made for the SG industry. Sure your iron will work. It
just won't work very well. It's like the Dremel grinding bits.... the Sears
dry grinding wheel.... the diamond tipped glass cutter.... the electricians
pliers..... the Flair marking pens..... cutting glass underwater with a
scissors, etc.
Buy cheap glass, but not cheap tools.
--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://www.sinrodstudios.com/
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/
Philip Lewis
> I admire the folks that attempt to change and improve the world. The
>problem you'll have with SG is that we've been doing it for 1000 years
>pretty much the same way.
iron to solder? And make your own cement? (which i actully did for my
piece... although i cheated and used concrete dye instead of lamp
black... i'm such a slacker. :)
I'm really not trying to be an ass here... I have great respect for
professionals and tradition[1] in the trade... But without some
failures and a fresh perspective somewhere along the line, innovation
wouldn't happen. (a point you seem to understand as indicated by your
opening statement.)
>Sure your iron will work. It just won't work very well.
Have you seen this iron in action, or are you making an educated guess?
(I'd really like to know.)
The responce I was looking for when I started this thread was of the
type: "I've used it and it's not good for the following reasons:
..." or "Sure, I've been using it for months and love/hate/like it!"
or even "I've used it for other projects and like it, but i've not
used it for SG." and even "They sell those same types tips for regular
soldering irons, so you won't be stuck with the dremel only line".
I already know that the irons they sell for the task work (and
probably work well)... i'm looking for new information.
For good or bad, I tend to question everything. It's probably
frustrating/annoying as heck to folks... but there it is.
Unfortunatly noone here seems to have done any work (SG or other)
with the tool at all. It must be a relatively new release, I can't
find any online reviews on it. Maybe i can get Dremel to send me one
for free, So I can review it and get the info out there. ;)
Philip Lewis
[1]I participate in medieval recreation, and am interested in lots of
traditional techniques and crafts.
Moonraker
> find any online reviews on it. Maybe i can get Dremel to send me one
> for free, So I can review it and get the info out there. ;)
>
I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
Philip Lewis
>"Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>> find any online reviews on it. Maybe i can get Dremel to send me one
>> for free, So I can review it and get the info out there. ;)
>I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
heh... I can dream. I've written them and will let folks know if I
get it and if it works.
Andy Dingley
<flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Heat is heat...
And 30W of it isn't enough.
Philip Lewis
>Philip Lewis writes:
>>Heat is heat...
>And 30W of it isn't enough.
I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?
like in light bulbs:
A 60W incandescent lightbulb converts to light and to heat.
a 15W flourescent bulb is more efficient at converting the energy to
light, and therefore is as bright as a 60W bulb at 25% the wattage.
I think, in a closed box (with the box absorbing all the light and
converting it to heat) the 15W bulb would only yield 25% of the heat
that the 60W does.... so If the iron represents 100% (or near)
conversion of the the energy to heat (I don't recall seeing an iron
emitting visible spectrum radiation. ;), then knowing that 30W is not
enough is useful, Thanks.
--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Javahut
"Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> uttered ina troll like
manner ....
>
> I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
> Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?
>
> like in light bulbs:
> A 60W incandescent lightbulb converts to light and to heat.
> a 15W flourescent bulb is more efficient at converting the energy to
> light, and therefore is as bright as a 60W bulb at 25% the wattage.
>
> I think, in a closed box (with the box absorbing all the light and
> converting it to heat) the 15W bulb would only yield 25% of the heat
> that the 60W does.... so If the iron represents 100% (or near)
> conversion of the the energy to heat (I don't recall seeing an iron
> emitting visible spectrum radiation. ;), then knowing that 30W is not
> enough is useful, Thanks.
Are you the kind of guy that when someone asks the time, you want to know
how a watch is made?
Or are you determeined to keep posting this drivel until someone bites ate
the bait and says
"What the F*** is wrong with you?" Are you going to keep belaboring the
point until someone agrees with you and says , "Yeah it's a great iron go
ahead, buy 50 of them you'll love it."
What's your real reason for posting this question, it can't be to know the
iron won't work, because it WON'T. It will begin to solder one joint and it
will crash and burn, then 15 min later it can start another, it is not
designed to do what you want to do, solder leaded glass together
efficiently.
But that is not why you are posting, I just gave you the answer to why you
are posting, you like to see your name in print.
>
>
Michele Blank
everyone that has actually lived the experience you are trying to guess at?
we have been telling you it won't work and in the amount of time we,
collectively, including you with your inquiries have spent , we could have
earned far more than the minor pittance it would have cost you to purchase
the right tool and quit wasting everyone's time. buzz off if you can't learn
from the responses given to your questions you child of a teen brain! m
A"Philip Lewis" <flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:qvj3blw...@unix42.andrew.cmu.edu...
JK@work
> Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> writes:
> >Philip Lewis writes:
> >>Heat is heat...
> >And 30W of it isn't enough.
>
> I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
> Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?
>
> like in light bulbs:
> A 60W incandescent lightbulb converts to light and to heat.
> a 15W flourescent bulb is more efficient at converting the energy to
> light, and therefore is as bright as a 60W bulb at 25% the wattage.
>
> I think, in a closed box (with the box absorbing all the light and
> converting it to heat) the 15W bulb would only yield 25% of the heat
> that the 60W does.... so If the iron represents 100% (or near)
> conversion of the the energy to heat (I don't recall seeing an iron
> emitting visible spectrum radiation. ;), then knowing that 30W is not
> enough is useful, Thanks.
>
>
Please! We don't need Stephen Hawking here.... go buy a 100w SG
soldering iron already. Spend all this free time on your design instead.
Have some fun.
flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu
I did not make clear that my questions were an effort for me to better
understand your answers and learn more about the process and tools
used. Apparently my replies came off as being argumentative.
I apologize for this failing.
"Michele Blank" <aWorkofArt.notgonnaspamme!@att.net> writes:
>we have been telling you it won't work
I started this thread with two very specific questions:
1:Has anyone used this tool to solder came?
2:What is your opinion/observations? (on the tool being implied.)
I gave a little background on my thoughts of why I thought it
might work, and what specific concerns I had.
To date, no one has answered:
(1) they have used this tool, and (2) have found that it doesn't work.
You asked a question "why I don't I just buy the purpose tool", and I
tried to explain my reasoning. Apparently, your question was rhetorical.
There was a short side discussion of dimmers, and how they worked, and
if/when they were needed. In this JavaHut explained why he didn't use
or need a dimmer (usually).
Some folks stated that "it won't work" but didn't say why
they thought that, or indicated that they had tried the tool.
Andy Dingley had the closest reply that addressed the original question:
30W is not enough. I thanked him, and asked if all 30W irons were the
same (and tried to show why I thought it was possible that they were
not, but that it's likely they were). In hindsight, a better question
would have been: "Are all X watt irons the same?".
Since he stated that a 30W iron is not enough... knowing more info on
if some elements are better than others would help me decide which
brand/wattage of iron I will buy. I was hoping for discussion along
the lines of: "I find Brand X irons to have quicker recovery than
Brand Y" or "Don't get the 40W irons for sale, they are not
enough... go with 100-150W" etc. In your first message you mentioned
that you like the inland 100W model. I replied that that was good to
know....which was an implied "thanks for that info." Perhaps I should
have created a new thread, to make it clear that I was pursuing
different information.
If my questions seemed "childish" to you, please remember that when it
comes to the SG craft, everything that is old hat to you
(collectively), is new and exciting to me. Consequently, I'm
enthusiastic.
I'm trying to understand what I can, and the way I do that is to read,
ask questions, and then probe the answers to those questions. In my
probes, I learned a little more about dimmer use (or non-use) in the
industry, sculptural solder, that "diamond tipped glass cutters" and
Flair marking pens apparently do not work very well, got a praise of the
inland 100W, etc. All good information not relating to the original
questions. Info which I might not have learned otherwise.
I'm not arguing for the sake of argument, really, I'm just trying to
gather, understand, and extract information.
I hope that I've better explained from where I was coming.
I'll try to be more clear in the future.
--
be safe.
flip
"You can never completely understand anything by agreeing and making
definitions. Only by turning over the possibilities. [...] If I say I
know, I stop thinking. As long as I keep thinking, I come to understand."
-- From the movie "Insignificance" (1985)
Andy Dingley
<flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>And 30W of it isn't enough.
>
>I don't know the physics involved well enough to argue the point.
>Are all 30W elements the same, or is there a conversion factor?
There's something of a conversion factor, but not much. Electric heating
elements are all pretty efficient. However the temperature they reach is
an equilibrium between the heat going in (electricity, pretty constant)
and the heat lost by radiation and convection (increases with
temperature). They warm up until in and out flows are equal. A
physically big iron will be a _little_ colder than a tiny iron of the
same power, just because it's losing more.
You can do stained glass (small copper foil) with a 30W iron - I know,
because I've seen it done. It's also a miserable process to do and the
results are poor. You just don't have enough heat to work with
comfortably and the solder joints will have a lumpy surface. Something
with 75W or even more will give you _much_ better results and will be
easier to work with.
I use a 50W soldering iron for small electronics work, but it's
temperature controlled. I could also use a 25W or even 15W iron that was
on permanently. The difference is that the powerful controlled iron
keeps the same temperature, even when I place it on a large piece of
cold metal - the small fixed iron would drop in temperature and possibly
over-heat on a small joint. The difference is much less for stained
glass work, but I'd still rather have a big iron with plenty of excess
power and a control mechanism to keep it under control.
Andy Dingley
<aWorkofArt.notgonnaspamme!@att.net> wrote:
>What are you, like 15 years old and have to argue every point made by
>everyone that has actually lived the experience you are trying to guess at?
For all I know Philip _is_ 15 years old and has never handled a
soldering iron in his life. I'd like him to be 16 years old and
enjoying his soldering in the future, not pissed off with some people's
attitude and walking away from the whole thing.
Ignorance is always excusable, especially if someone is bothering to
ask. We aren't _born_ knowing this stuff.
Philip Lewis
>You can do stained glass (small copper foil) with a 30W iron - I know,
>because I've seen it done. It's also a miserable process to do
Thanks Andy, that's exactly the kind of info for which I was looking.
I'll look into a heavier duty iron.
--
be safe.
flip
Moonraker
<flip+sp...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:qvjlkzn...@unix42.andrew.cmu.edu...
It is the temperature of the iron's tip, not the wattage (directly) that has
anything to do with being able to solder properly. More accurately, it is
"Thermal Mass" of the iron tip at the desired temperature. The bigger the
tip, the more mass of heat, so it cools less when the tip is applied to the
lead/copper and solid solder is introduced to the joint. A small tip cannot
retain as much heat as a larger one. The wattage has to do with the
"acceptable" amount of time it takes to heat the iron tip to the required
temp. (usually 700F). 30 watts will heat an iron tip just as hot as 100
watts will, it just takes longer to get to temperature and won't recover as
fast when in use. The theory is to have a consistent iron tip temperature
so the solder melts and then cools in a predictable way.
Of course, tip size is limited by how heavy (weight wise) of an iron you
want to use and to a lesser extent on the delicacy of the project. I
basically use one iron...a 100 watt with a 1/2" tip. The iron has an
internal thermostat, and stays at 700F. Unfortunately, I burn one up every
few months due to heavy use on my part and poor QC from the manufacturer.
But that's another story.
Philip Lewis
[good info on tips/thermal mass/etc deleted]
Thanks for the info Moonraker!
>Unfortunately, I burn one up every few months due to heavy use on my
>part and poor QC from the manufacturer. But that's another story.
Is this a well known manufacturer? You seem to indicate that you
are buying the same brand, so you must like it for some reason or another.
Does it handle/work well when it works, do you have a dozen
tips to use before you give up on the brand, or do you stick with this
manufacture since other brands fail just as often with your heavy use?
I've been looking, but havn't found any sites that review various
brands of SG equipment. (nothing at epinions, amazon, etc)
I'll have to explore some of the forums on various crafting websites.
Recently, I got distracted on WetCanvas.com for a bit... kiln making,
glass blowing, and marble making... Nice step by step on making a SG
lamp too... but no comprehensive reviews on tools.
Anyone have recommendations for other sites?