Hager, ACG - Another view
Jeffrey Saltzman
Could you explain what you mean by "anecdotal evidence"? You are right
that the conflict of interest is a major ethical violation, but I believe
the overgrading examples are relative to the "long-standing acceptable
numismatic standards" in use.
Anecdotal evidence is where YOU look at a coin that is graded....oh,
say......F12 and decide that it's really a G3. Or someone tells you of
their experiences with ACG's overgrading. It's a "he said, she said".
All they have to say is they are using their OWN set of standards and
then not divulge those standards. I'll tell you what....show me ANY
written standards that ICG has in their grading of coins!! Or ANY pop
report that ICG has!!! It seems that the uproar about ICG's overgrading
has now been superceded by ACG's. In reality, ICG is doing FAR more
damage than is ACG.... but that is beside the point right now. To be
overly simplistic, anecdotal evidence is "he said, she said"...and it
will NEVER work. Hell, I could set up JAG in a day (Jeff's Accurate
Grading) and be open for business in a week grading/encapsulating coins
and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it....EXCEPT to keep a
VERY close eye on me and the standards being utilized by my company and
how I'm grading my coins...AND to make your opinions known to other
through forums like RCC. But the way y'all are acting all I'd have to
do to sneeze and y'all would fold immediately.
That's why I said you MUST focus.....you HAVE to concentrate on on their
complete conflict of interest in regard to the grading and resale of
their own coins (which is NOT illegal at all....just not acceptable),
the claims they are making which everyone is bowing down and kissing
their ass over. Hager is just blowing complete smoke about taking
ANYONE to court as then HE would be the plantiff and have to refute the
charges being made against him (or rather his company), how it has hurt
his business, open their books and PROVE all of their statement about
being the largest at this, second largest at that, etc, etc. Do you
RALLY think he would allow them to EVER see the light of day??
As far as Jason Craton caving to Ms.Hager over th phone over the "just
say NO to ACG" campaign that he (or someone else) apparenly
started....well, I can't believe that he caved to a "skirt" over the
phone. I told him the same thing as I told Charles Calkins....forward
ME all of the HTML and I'll have my ISP post it up in MY name. There is
still such a thing as the first admendment and I can say pretty much
anything I want in this country....and I can set up any king of
organization that I so choose to do and there isn't a damn thing ACG can
do about it. Oh they can try and sue over lost business but, in
reality, no attorney in the world would take their case on a contingency
basis and I sincerely doubt that Hager/ACG would want to use their
operating capital on such a suit. Again, I can start a "SCC"
organization right now (Screw Charles Calkins...no offense, Buddy) and
there isn't anything you could do about it. The SMARTEST thing you
could do is just ignore me as the sound of one-hand clapping is what???
If no one pays any attention to my SCC campaign then what is the point?
You understand what I mean here?? ACG is being just plain stupid over
this "just say NO". They should just ignore everything that is being
said....totally. If they DO have the dealer network they CLAIM to have
what the hell do they care about a dozen or so loud-mouths like us are
saying on rcc??? They should WELCOME the pubicity. Call me anything
you want....but call me.
I'm sorry to be so harsh about this....but Jason caving to Ms Hager just
about made me ill. Put up or shut up. If you believe you are right
then stand up like a Man and say so. What do you think would happen if
I started an internet sight right this minute called "Just say NO to
Bush" and tried to convince every congressperson to fillabuster ALL of
Bush's legislation sent to congress?? I'll TELL you what would
happen....NOTHING. Not one damn thing. I'm protected by the First
Admendment and have the right to say anything I wish to in this country
UNLESS it will cause bodily injury to another (classic case of yelling
"Fire!" in a crowded movie therter). I don't think I've ever been
called a rebel-rouser and I'm not talking out of my ass here or trying
to be a wiseguy. I'm not one of those anti-government nuts or anti-tax
jerks. I believe in our constitution, I've studied it for 40 years, and
I cherish it.
I just can't believe y'all who supposedly put yourself on the line, cut
and ran at the first sound of gunfire in the distance (Ms. Hager's
letter and one phone call). I didn't start this campaign. I'm coming
in late due to severe health problems. But if I had been the
"ringleader", Ms. Hager's statements would have just made me dig me
heels in even harder. I'm perfectly willing to take up the mantle now
if everyone else is going to let a skirt (NO offense to you Ladies out
there) run them off.
I detest Alan Hager and ACG...not personally as I don't care to know him
personally....but because they are hurting the hobby that we all love.
They can have a HUGE affect on the newbie's just now coming into our
hobby and buying up ACG's cheap crap. I hope this email somehow gets to
Alan hager or Ms. Hager about me calling his certified coins "cheap
crap". Let them come after ME. Ms. Hager already tried it once in
Fedruary 1999 about me sounding off on rcc warning folks about their
SEVERE overgrading of coins.
What do I mean about severe overgrading? I purchased a 1971D ACG MS67
from a Guy in Florida (I'm more than heppy to release his name with his
permission).....I cracked it open (so no one would know from what
grading service it came from) verrrryyyyy carefully and sent it in to
PCGS for grading. It came back a MS62. Nothing more need be said on
that coin. ****By the way, Charles....THAT is an anecdotal
experience.**** I also warned, anyone who would listen, their coins
also rattled in their holders (at least EVERY one that I've seen) which
means the rims can potentially get beat up in the long term.
She wrote ME a "cease and desist" letter and I told her to shove it.
What did it cost her to write that one letter? Maybe 20 minutes of time
+ stationary + postage...and, who knows, I might have caved.....it cost
hernext-to- nothing to try. Bottom line? I've never heard from her
again. What does SHE have to lose with one letter or one phone call???
If she can make y'all quit (like she IS doing) then she's quite a
Gal....and, frankly, y'all are.....how do I put this gently without
saying gutless....let's just say y'all don't have the courage of your
convictions. Again, I know these statements are very harsh but my ONLY
concern has ALWAYS been for the average collector who thinks no one is
ever looking out for them. That one voice will never be heard.....(sort
of like one vote doesn't make a difference....is there ANYONE who will
ever say THAT again???). And then this Gal makes one single phone call
and grown men cut and run. I'm sure glad y'all weren't with me in
Vietnam as I wouldn't have made it back.
If I've stepped on some toes here, I can live with it. I didn't even
know about this prolonged discussion or anything about the campaigns. I
was contacted and asked for my evaluation and comments. I have, I did,
and I'm sickened by what I see. THIS IS OUR HOBBY. We either defend it
or a very few quick-buck artists will take it from us.
Lest anyone think me just a moaner and groaner, I fully intend on
assuming my OWN mantle and keeping ACG light a deer in the headlights of
an 18-wheeler. If I can help any other organization, who is not going
to fold, run and hide, I'm more than happy to do so.
By the way....Mr. Hager used to be a prolific write on the Ike series in
the 80's. For anyone interested, I have copies of his book at
$35/each....autographed copies are $5.
Regards,
Jeff Saltzman
Color me thoroughly disgusted
Mark Greene
Jeffrey Saltzman <je...@ont.com> wrote:
[snippage]
> That's why I said you MUST focus.....you HAVE to concentrate on on
their
> complete conflict of interest in regard to the grading and resale of
> their own coins (which is NOT illegal at all....just not acceptable),
But could be determined fraudulent in the event that they actually have
written standards and sufficient examples of coins they slabbed *and*
sold were demonstrated to have not met them for the grades they
assigned.
[more snippage]
>forward
> ME all of the HTML and I'll have my ISP post it up in MY name. There
is
> still such a thing as the first admendment and I can say pretty much
> anything I want in this country....and I can set up any king of
> organization that I so choose to do and there isn't a damn thing ACG
can
> do about it.
Ok. What to go halves on registering a few domain names?
boycottaccugrade.com, .org, .net, etc.?
--
Mark
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Byron L. Reed - Bust Dime Freak
>and ran at the first sound of gunfire in the distance (Ms. Hager's
>letter and one phone call).
Oh, not all.
http://www.byronreed.com/BCTC/linktobctc.htm#FUGRADE
To be fair, coins are not as important to some people as the possible loss of
their livelihood. This world is full of people who have a range of interest in
the issue ranging from none, to pro-ACG to anti-ACG in a continuum on degree.
Frankly, I'd rather have a NG full of "cut and run" anti-ACG types than an NG
full of the pro-ACG types.
Jason and Richard did much more to warn others away from Accugrade than almost
anyone else here and they should be commended for their efforts. They
certainly did a hell of a lot more for the hobby than the those on this NG who
find a way to justify every offense committed by those in the business by
blaming the "stupid customers." While I understand the passion, I don't think
it should compel someone to do more than they feel comfortable doing.
Meanwhile, we hard-core curmudgeons will stand fast.
BLReed
SARCHASM: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
doesn't get it.
GOT BUSTS? http://www.byronreed.com/BCTC/home.htm
Greg Drude
Count me in if you want or need some financial help in setting up the site.
I stand behind you and your comments 100% !!!
Greg Drude
Stujoe
band...@aol.com.Roy448 spoke thusly...
> >I just can't believe y'all who supposedly put yourself on the line, cut
> >and ran at the first sound of gunfire in the distance (Ms. Hager's
> >letter and one phone call).
>
> Oh, not all.
>
> http://www.byronreed.com/BCTC/linktobctc.htm#FUGRADE
>
> To be fair, coins are not as important to some people as the possible loss of
> their livelihood. This world is full of people who have a range of interest in
> the issue ranging from none, to pro-ACG to anti-ACG in a continuum on degree.
Bingo. I don't know Mr. Asthmas family or financial situation (nor do I
particularly care too.) I respect what he is doing but, as far as I am
concerned...especially after reading Kurt's post, I am not going to risk
my family's financial position over a coin in a piece of plastic.
Mr. Saltzman can call me a coward or a skirt or whatever, IDGAS.
Is he going to be there for my family if the financial need arises? At
least if I sacrifice myself for the military, I can have some good
expectation that my family will be taken care of.
I also thought that he was very unfair to Jason. Here is a guy who tried
to "do something", but admittedly is not the richest, most powerful or
most knowledgeable person to be leading a battle such as this. He comes
home from Burger King with his family, and has a phone call from Ms.
Hager and takes down the site.
I am sure he did not want to do take it down as he was trying to help a
situation that he sees as bad. I would think that he probably weighed
what a successful legal campaign might do to his family and himself and
made the decision he made.
I don't know how many ACG slabs Jason (or some of the other people
taking up this issue) has seen in person, held,bought, examined,
resubmitted, studied etc.
As for me, that number is 0. All I know about them is what I have seen
in pictures and the opinions of some people here that I respect.
I commend Mr. Saltzman if he is in a position to "fight the good fight"
and has the experience, knowledge and financial "guts" to do so but I do
not think it is fair for him to deride or judge Jason or anyone else who
tried to do something they think is right and decided for whatever
personal reason that the fight was not worth the personal risk to them.
Flame as you will.
--
Stu Miller
My coins may not be pretty but they have great personalities.
The Stujoe Collection, est. 1999
RCC FAQ: http://www.telesphere.com/ts/coins/faq2.html
Craton
> To be fair, coins are not as important to some people as the possible loss of
> their livelihood. This world is full of people who have a range of interest in
> the issue ranging from none, to pro-ACG to anti-ACG in a continuum on degree.
> Frankly, I'd rather have a NG full of "cut and run" anti-ACG types than an NG
> full of the pro-ACG types.
Hey Thanks Byron. You hit the nail on the head there. I do not have the
financial recourses to go to court and what little bit of mental
stability I have left, it would surely push me over the edge. My family
is more important then trying to get ACG to recognize what they are
doing.
>
> Jason and Richard did much more to warn others away from Accugrade than almost
> anyone else here and they should be commended for their efforts. They
> certainly did a hell of a lot more for the hobby than the those on this NG who
> find a way to justify every offense committed by those in the business by
> blaming the "stupid customers." While I understand the passion, I don't think
> it should compel someone to do more than they feel comfortable doing.
> Meanwhile, we hard-core curmudgeons will stand fast.
Thanks again, I appreciate it.
--
Jason Craton
ANA R-195238
---------------
"I am certain it will be more agreeable to the citizens of the
United States to see the head of Liberty on their coin, than
the head of presidents." - George Washington
---------------------------
"I yam what I yam" - Popeye the Sailor Man
Stujoe
stu...@NONADASPAMprodigy.net spoke thusly...
> In article <20010203041130...@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
> band...@aol.com.Roy448 spoke thusly...
> > >I just can't believe y'all who supposedly put yourself on the line, cut
> > >and ran at the first sound of gunfire in the distance (Ms. Hager's
> > >letter and one phone call).
> >
> > Oh, not all.
> >
> > http://www.byronreed.com/BCTC/linktobctc.htm#FUGRADE
> >
> > To be fair, coins are not as important to some people as the possible loss of
> > their livelihood. This world is full of people who have a range of interest in
> > the issue ranging from none, to pro-ACG to anti-ACG in a continuum on degree.
>
> Bingo. I don't know Mr. Asthmas
Should read Mr. Saltzman...don't know how that happened to get asthmas.
I don't even know what asthmas means or if it is a word (dictionary.com
won't come up for me at the moment) but in case it is some kind of
insult, I want to correct it now.
John Baumgart
Mark Greene wrote in message <95g6ra$fbe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <jeffs-1D00DE....@news.ont.com>,
> Jeffrey Saltzman <je...@ont.com> wrote:
>
>[snippage]
>
>> That's why I said you MUST focus.....you HAVE to concentrate on on their
>> complete conflict of interest in regard to the grading and resale of
>> their own coins (which is NOT illegal at all....just not acceptable),
>
>But could be determined fraudulent in the event that they actually have
>written standards and sufficient examples of coins they slabbed *and*
>sold were demonstrated to have not met them for the grades they
>assigned.
Demonstrate that there are no standards! Grading coins implies applying a
standard. If there are no standards, how can they be grading coins? This
will require slabs in hand. Anyone but me going to a show tomorrow?
John Baumgart
Jeffrey Saltzman
with and I'm certain that website wasn't posted as a joke. I know
Jason's situation and we share share some health infirmities in common
(not the same but just as dibilitating). No, I wouldn't want to see
anyone (beside myself as I know ehat these people...Hager/ACG.... are
all about) go down the tubes. But you still don't cut and run at the
very first sign of 'trouble'. At least stand up and fight a
LITTLE....just enough to call their bluff. If they WERE going to
institute a lawsuit the very next step would be a formal 'cease and
desist' order on a legal document drafted by an Attorney. That is just
plain ole common sense
As I said in my post.....anyone who has already set up a website
exposing ACG or warning folks about ACG they are hereby authorized to
transfered to transfer all of the HTMLO code or whatever to me and I'll
repost EVERYTHING under my OWN name. I've never tried to put up a
website and I'm entirely too old to learn now. Just contact me and I'll
give you the ISP address of my host and you can contact them as to how
to get it placed on my ISP (or whatever the freaking language is).
I've dealt with Ms Hager once before on a 'cease and desist' and told
hger in no uncertain terms to 'shove it' and I'll be more than happy to
do so again. I would WELCOME ACG to come after me. I would WECOME them
dragging me into court. Just think of the money it's going to cost
THEM. IS there ANYONE in this whole world who thinks ACG could prevail
on what is clearly only a First Admendment issue???? Please, people,
use a little but of good ole common sense here.
Regards,
Jeff Saltzman
In article <20010203041130...@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
Jeffrey Saltzman
the rest of your post, Stu, you can read my response to Byron Reed
Regards,
Jeff Saltzman
In article <MPG.14e5f252b...@news.supernews.com>, Stujoe
Stujoe
spoke thusly...
> If they WERE going to
> institute a lawsuit the very next step would be a formal 'cease and
> desist' order on a legal document drafted by an Attorney. That is just
> plain ole common sense
I don't know if I am alone in this but I have heard and learned more
about lawsuits, cease and desist orders, attorneys and legal action from
threads on a coins usenet group than I ever have from personal
experience. Kind of weird when I think about it. :-)
So far, in my life, the only personal contact I have had with the
judicial system was when I had to serve on a Coroner's Jury, once.
Jeffrey Saltzman
in his Book entitled "A Comprehensive Guide To Eisenhower Dollars In
Accugrade 'Uncirculated, Prooflikes and Proofs'". These standards take
into consideration every single U.S. coin from Cent to $20 Gold. If
anyone would like a copy they can send me a SASE to:
Jeffrey Saltzman
P.O. Box 497661
Garland, TX 75049-7661
Now I'm SURE I'm going to get a call from ACG about reprint rights for
this and I'll tell them the same thing I told them in Feb '99....shove
it.
> But could be determined fraudulent in the event that they actually have
> written standards and sufficient examples of coins they slabbed *and*
> sold were demonstrated to have not met them for the grades they
> assigned.
> Ok. What to go halves on registering a few domain names?
>
> boycottaccugrade.com, .org, .net, etc.?
You bet. Feel free to contact me ONLY IF you know how to set up a
website and maintain it. You can use MY name as the owner of the
website.
Elmer Fusterpuck
> then not divulge those standards. I'll tell you what....show me ANY
> written standards that ICG has in their grading of coins!! Or ANY
pop
> report that ICG has!!! It seems that the uproar about ICG's
overgrading
> has now been superceded by ACG's. In reality, ICG is doing FAR more
> damage than is ACG.... but that is beside the point right now.
<other interesting stuff snipped>
I assume you mean ICG's overgrading of modern coinage, especially
proofs. If those are the coins you're talking about, then I'm in
agreement with you. Their PF-70's (yeah right) and cameo designations
are way off the mark. However, I've seen their grading on earlier
coins and haven't had major problems with it. As for population
reports, I think a lot of it is pure s***. With all the crackout
dealers trying to get that scuffy 66 up to a 68 multiple times, the
numbers for certain coins are a joke. At least NGC doesn't charge to
view their population reports, for what it's worth. It would be
intereting if ICG kept numbers, but it doesn't bother me if I'm bying
an ICG coin I like. As for ACG, wonder how many 71's and 72's are on
their population reports, assuming they compile one? ;)
10-4,
Erik
Steven Preston
>Should read Mr. Saltzman...don't know how that
>happened to get asthmas. I don't even know
>what asthmas means or if it is a word
>(dictionary.com won't come up for me at the
>moment) but in case it is some kind of insult, I
>want to correct it now.
Relax, Stu- asthma is not an insult; you can breathe easy :-)
-Steve
Richard Adams
>
> In article <jeffs-1950B7....@news.ont.com>, je...@ont.com
> spoke thusly...
> > If they WERE going to
> > institute a lawsuit the very next step would be a formal 'cease and
> > desist' order on a legal document drafted by an Attorney. That is just
> > plain ole common sense
>
> I don't know if I am alone in this but I have heard and learned more
> about lawsuits, cease and desist orders, attorneys and legal action from
> threads on a coins usenet group than I ever have from personal
> experience. Kind of weird when I think about it. :-)
>
> So far, in my life, the only personal contact I have had with the
> judicial system was when I had to serve on a Coroner's Jury, once.
Stu said, "He's dead, Jim."
--
----------------------------------------------------------
* Richard Adams, ANA r-195237 ackthpt(at)concentric.net *
* Free IQ Test:Insert Quarter Here -> ========= *
----------------------------------------------------------
Ed Eubanks 98-IP
<< So far, in my life, the only personal contact I have had with the
judicial system was when I had to serve on a Coroner's Jury, once. >>
I got a speeding ticket....once.....in 1979.......I think If I were sent a writ
from an habitual corpse that told me to cease....and to remove de cyst....I'd
faint....dead away....
Ed
Charles Calkins
"Jeffrey Saltzman" <je...@ont.com> wrote in message
news:jeffs-1950B7....@news.ont.com...
> Sorry, but it obviously was important enough to post a website to begin
> with and I'm certain that website wasn't posted as a joke.
Exactly. I had contacted ACG last June and asked if they would comment as
to the statement people have made that their grading isn't as accurate as
others. Diane Hager, VP of ACG (and wife to Alan Hager, I have learned)
replied many people said their grading was accurate. I found several images
of ACG graded coins on eBay that weren't accurate, and sent them to her for
her comment, as they directly refuted that statement. I didn't receive a
reply. I sent them again a few weeks later - again no reply.
They recently placed that CoinWorld ad stating among other things that they
do not overgrade, but I know that to be false. That was the main reason I
established my web site - if they were bold enough to say they do not
overgrade in print, I would be bold enough to disagree on the web.
A cease and desist email message caused me to remove it, however, not due to
threats against me, but because of threats she made against two "innocent
bystanders" who aren't even coin collectors. She actually never even
contacted me directly, despite my address being prominent on the site she
referenced. She also accused me of obviously false things, such as eBay
auction interference or being the creator of the anti-ACG webring or "Say NO
to ACG!" logo. I'm glad they were both created, and I did reference them on
my page, but she didn't even take the time to verify her facts before making
allegations.
After discussion with the innocent bystanders (who I still will not name
publicly even if she tries to drag them in again) it seemed best that if I
was going to continue, I do it on a different server to avoid even the
potential of action by her against them. Its not the most ideal place at
the moment, but it can be found here:
http://home.swbell.net/calkinsc/acg/justsayno.html
I have also received four requests, all most appreciated, to host it in all
or in part and have forwarded the text and images on to them. I have also
replied in manner more akin to my feelings, also posted to r.c.c. (as was my
original message to her). See the threads "Death of Accugrade Examined" and
"Rebirth of Accugrade Examined" for details.
No, it was not a joke. I did feel I needed to present the information
though as they wouldn't even answer my email.
--
Charles Calkins
calk...@applied-intelligence.com