Boat Defence Against Pirates
erik
bunch of Thai and Malaysian pirates. They apparent-
ly prey on the undefended (mostly refugees like
Viet boat people). Seldom do they go after a
private yacht. They were not very well armed
either. I saw no automatic weapons. These pirates
have been known to board merchant vessels transiting
the Strait of Malucca, at night, while they are
restricted in their ability to manuver, by grappling
up the stern. They also made it clear that they
don't like any difficult targets that resist. They
aren't in it to be heros. Apparently, any stiff
resistance, and they go off and stalk easier prey.
You might consider a 12 guage pump shotgun. You
can get a stainless steel version if you've got the
bucks. It is easy to break down, and you can put
a mix of ammo in it, from sabotted rounds (with the
range of a rifle), to various types of shot (that
require less sharpshooting skill aboard a moving
vessel). The main thing is to keep moving. It is
hard to board a moving vessel at sea, and it is
illegal for anyone, other than your own countries
naval forces, to board you in international waters.
Brent Pellegrini
pirates and drove them away. I think he also used it to get his boat off
a reef. Probably not Polictically Correct these days to blow up reefs but
....
In a previous posting, Thomas Woolman (wool...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu) writes:
> In article <3imppm$r...@griffin.itc.gu.edu.au>,
> Maurice H. Rich <M.R...@ens.gu.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>>My wife and I are planning to go sailing off-shore from Australia and will be
>>travelling through the Red China Sea where pirates with high speed
>>boats and AK47 have been known to attack private vessels.
>>
>>
>>I am building a sailing vessel 45 ft and would like some information
>>on a suitable weapon that could be either manufactured or purchased
>>with few questions asked somewhere in the world. Such a weapon
>>would have to be relatively easy to breakdown and conceal on-board.
>>
>>So if someone has some information or data in this area that is sensible
>>and useful please e-mail R.Tom...@ens.gu.edu.au
>>
>>
> I'd seriously look at an M1 Garand. The .30-06 is excellent as a man
> stopper and will penetrate boat hulls very very nicely, and give you a
> tremendous range advantage over the AK. It breaks down very nicely into
> 3 main parts (stock, receiver and trigger group) just by pulling down and
> out on the trigger guard to disassemble. It gives you good and reliable
> firepower if necessary and is also probably legal in just about every
> corner of the world. Hell, if they're legal in New Jersey (they are) they'll
> probably be OK everywhere. Plus the M1 is relatively cheap ($250 from DCM or
> $350-450 for a good condition re-import).
>
> ^TW
>
>>
>
>
Richard Jackson
#From: M.R...@ens.gu.edu.au (Maurice H. Rich)
#Subject: Boat Defence Against Pirates
#Date: 25 Feb 1995 10:40:37 -0500
#My wife and I are planning to go sailing off-shore from Australia and will be
#travelling through the Red China Sea where pirates with high speed
#boats and AK47 have been known to attack private vessels.
#
#I am building a sailing vessel 45 ft and would like some information
#on a suitable weapon that could be either manufactured or purchased
#with few questions asked somewhere in the world. Such a weapon
#would have to be relatively easy to breakdown and conceal on-board.
Mr. Rich:
I don't think I have any information but your post gave rise to some
interesting speculation.
Have you considered not going where there are pirates? If you go there, with
a weapon, you are making a commitment to fight it out if challenged. Is that
wise? I will assume that the pirates use motor powered vessels in the 30 to
100 foot range, either wood or metal hull. You already indicated that they
will be faster than you.
A pirate wants loot and he doesn't want to be dead. Sailboats are slow (easy
to catch) and easy to find (carry radar reflectors). They are relatively easy
to disable with gunfire - shoot through the sails - and hard to steer without
being very visible and exposed to fire. That would tend to make attempts to
run and hide from a faster adversary rather dangerous. Consider how your hull
material will stand up to repeated strikes by AK-47 bullets. Will your hull
provide cover in a firefight? Will bullets penetrate? Will they shatter
fiberglass or concrete and cause the vessel to founder very quickly? If
aluminum or steel, will you be able to improvise a patch?
Again, this is speculation. I would think you would like to keep them far
enough away so they don't board. Accurate fire at long range will be a
problem with any shoulder fired weapon. Even a ralitively stable sailboat
won't be very stable if you have to maneuver and long range aimed fire
requires a more stable platform than a sailboat deck. This would seem to
leave two obvious choices: close-in weapons or heavier military-size stuff. A
shotgun makes a dandy close-in weapon but you have lost ballistic advantage -
if the bad guy has an AK, he can shoot farther than you can - and you are
committed to killing one or more people on your deck from concealment below.
The other end of this equation might be a grenade launcher - M79 type - under
an M16 or larger caliber fully automatic weapon. The big risk here is being
jailed for possessing it at some port of entry in the China Sea. I would
think that any sort of rocket launcher would be bad. All those lines, sheets,
halyards, sails, etc laying about on a wood deck would make a dandy fire from
the backblast. My favorite choice (a deck mounted 50 cal M2 machine gun)
would be very inconvenient on the foredeck as your spinnaker pole and halyards
would certainly foul on it and it would most likely ruin the beautiful lines
of your vessel (and most likely tear the foredeck to pieces when fired).
I think I would reconsider your destinations or else travel in a group of
vessels that could support each other. The vision of having a running
firefight from the deck of sailboat against a better-armed, more manuverable,
faster power vessel doesn't seem like a very good idea.
CarlHK
I spent some time thinking about how to arm my boat, but then again, I was
not thinking of sailing where you plan to go. Be forewarned that many of
the "pirate" vessels you refer to in the South China Seas have turned out
to be rogue gunboats belonging to the Chinese or Vietnamese navy. They
are NOT armed solely with AK-47s. They are fast and are crewed by trained
military personnel, pirates though they be. Against those folks I
question the wisdom of bringing to bear any weaponry you may have. In
all likelihood you have a better chance of getting out alive if you did
not.
Other pirates in the area (non-military) often fit the description you
provide, but fortunately seem more preoccupied with bigger prey, such as
cargo ships and freighters. That is little comfort if you happen to run
into them however.
First suggestion:
1) Can you chart another route to avoid these areas? Why sail through
them in the first place when they are well known danger spots?
If you must sail for whatever reasons then:
1) Take one or two shotguns designed for maritime conditions. I use the
Remington 870 Marine magnum, which is nickel-plated and highly resistant
to corrosion. Great gun. Others to consider: the Winchester M-1300 and
the Mossberg 590 "Mariner". Officials worldwide do not have much against
these firearms and they are great defensive weapons at shorter ranges.
Use 00 buck and slugs as ammo, probably 3" shells. If you can find CS
tear gas rounds to fit the shotgun take that to. At longer ranges use the
slugs and at shorter ranges (<30 yards) load up the buckshot. Rifled
slugs fired below the waterline of an attacking boat will pierce
fiberglass and wood hulls and MAYBE even 1/4" steel plate. In your
specific case, I would recommend taking a course such as "combat shotgun"
if it is available in Australia. You can obtain video courses from the
U.S. that show how to use the weapons in tactical situations. ALWAYS
declare the weapons and accurate count of ammunition to customs
authorities. I repeat, ALWAYS declare the weapons when entering a foreign
port. You are at much higher risk in some places for lying to custom
officers then you would ever be from pirates. In parts of Asia if they
search your boat and find you indeed have weapons aboard when you told
them you did not, you, your wife and your boat are finished.
2) Also thinking specifically to your situation, I would consider taking
one semi-auto rifle designed for the marine environment. The universal
choice among boaters appears to be the Ruger Mini-14 in stainless steel.
It is solid, reliable, and stone simple to operate. It should reach out
to 200-300 yards and provides a bit longer range defense than a shotgun.
I wouldn't get anything more powerful, such as the M-1 Garand that I saw
mentioned in an earlier post, because it is very doubtful that firing from
a rocking-and-rolling boat you will hit a moving target further than 300
yards out. Yes, the M-1 bullets pack more punch than the .223 used by
the Mini-14, but the Mini-14 is stainless steel and designed for use at
sea. The M-1 is not and if you do not maintain it like a maniac the poor
M-1 will rust in no time.
3) Don't laugh, but I have a friend who carries some dynamite aboard
(crazy, eh?). He claims it is legal everywhere in the world as
"construction material", but who knows. He keeps it well hidden. He says
if he has not been able to dissuade an attacking boat with a few rounds
from his rifle, then he goes to his shotgun and if they are still coming
he plans to lob a few sticks of dynamite their way. I am not experienced
with explosives and would not fool around with this sort of thing, but
just to let you know there are others out there who do.
4) Make sure you get yourself some good optics so you can see who the
hell is approaching you. Keep a watch at all times in those waters. Use
common-sense.
And of course, enjoy sailing -- although frankly I don't think I would
enjoy sailing through that region! : ( Good luck and let us know how it
goes!
-Carl
Philip Munts
> I am building a sailing vessel 45 ft and would like some information
>
> and useful please e-mail R.Tom...@ens.gu.edu.au
There was an article in the _Combat Handguns_ VIP Protection column
about this topic a year or two ago.
I think they recommended a marine shotgun for repelling boarders.
They also advised a Barrett Light Fifty (semiauto rifle for Browning
50 machine gun cartridge) for engaging the enemy vessel at a distance.
There may be some interesting regulatory problems, however. I imagine
that Australian port authorities would not be too happy about a
private vessel mounting a .50. What ARE the international regs on
shipboard armament?
David Arthur Hall
want to fight the chinese navy might i reccommend a small tactical nuke. No
sarcasm intended but shooting back will guarantee that you are dead.
--
david_ar...@mindlink.bc.ca
ship safety branch canadian coast guard-west vancouver
Kevin Gorey
jack...@csn.net
> ... i recommend a small tactical nuke. No sarcasm intended ...
David_Ar...@mindlink.bc.ca
> ... I have a friend who carries some dynamite aboard ... friend of
internet user
Some serious paranoia here folks. Is this the Hindu.rec.boats where we
constantly reincarnate
the same topic until we perfect it? If so, I think we're probably going
to get to
cockroach world either during our next rehash of this topic or the one
after. Or perhaps
we've died and gone to purgatory and will be required to discuss this
topic 1,342,201 more
times since we didn't say enough novenas when we were sinning for real.
Pardon my simplification, but the responses here seem to fall into two
categories. Those
who feel that smiling a lot will get you out of any trouble and those
who believe in peace
through superior firepower. Having spent quite a bit of time in the 3rd
world, I can never
remember a time that a smile didn't solve a problem; I can also never
remember a time
when a gun would have solved a problem.
This reminds me of two stories. I spent a year backpacking from Cairo to
Capetown during
my foolish youth (*sigh*). During my first morning in Cairo at a sleazy
dump which
called itself a hotel I met two Canadian women. I asked them how they
liked Egypt and
got an earful about the rude, chauvanistic, dirty, ignorant Egyptians.
They were
especially incensed about the camel market where "these Arabs
slaughtered a camel right
in front of us just to shock us." So naturally my girlfriend, later
wife, and I went
to the camel market. There we met some great people, quite friendly, who
expressed
interest in us and why we were in Egypt. It turned out that they
slaughter camels at the
market, too. Nothing personal, unless you're a camel.
Second story: Man and his family are driving into a new town. At the
outskirts they see
an old gentleman sitting on his porch passing time. The man gets out of
his car and goes
up to the old gent and asks, "How are the people in this town? We're
just moving here
from out of state." The old gent squints at him and asks, "Well, how
were the people in
the town you just came from?" "Awful", says the man, "thoughtless and
rude. We're really
happy to be moving away." The old gent looks at the man and says, "Sorry
to say this, but
they're the same way here." The man looks crestfallen and drives off.
Next day another man and his family drive by the old gents house on
their way into town.
Man comes up to the old gent and asks, "How are the people in this town?
We're just moving
here from out of state." The old gent squints at him and asks, "Well,
how were the people
in the town you just came from?" "Great," says the man, "we had the best
neighbors you
could imagine. We were really sorry to leave." The old gent looks at the
man and says,
"You're in luck, son. The people here are just the same."
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Louis B. Brydon
>What ARE the international regs on shipboard armament?
Hmmmmm.... I can't seem to find this section in the COLREGs.
Maybe John Baxter knows.
--
Louis B. Brydon
bry...@orca.ssd.loral.com
WA6OCZ
SEASTAR - Redwood City, Ca, Ba, USA, Terra, Sol, Milkyway
Lee Bell
: Have you considered not going where there are pirates?
Do you perhaps know where there are no pirates?
: A pirate wants loot and he doesn't want to be dead.
This is not the case in South Florida. Down here pirates want the boat
to transport their drugs from the Bahamas into Florida. You're right
they don't want to be dead, but they do want you dead. If a gun on board
convices them to look for easier pickings, carry two.
The original question was what type of gun to carry. Mossberg makes a
good quality 12 guage shotgun in a special finish to resist marine
elements. This is one good option. I carry a stainless Colt 10mm and am
looking for a stainless Ruger Mini 14 with a folding stock. If I ever
have to use a gun at sea, I prefer to do it from a distance.
CarlHK
Whatever they are and wherever you may find them does not matter. What
matters are the rules of the specific countries you are planning to visit.
The rules vary incredibly from place to place, making "international
regs" nonsense.
If you will carry any firearms aboard your boat, call the customs or
embassies of places you plan to visit and get the exact rules of what is
permitted and what is not.
FWIW, I have found as long as you declare firearms and any ammunition when
asked by customs there has never been a problem with local officialdom.
-Carl
Antoinette Marie Starratt
I've ever heard of. Regulation comes from the country that you are in.
This means that in one country you are safe to hold off declaring shotguns
and rifles since they are very common, while in others such as Indonesia
or Malaysia this sort of behavior will earn you the death penalty.
Handguns are usually illegal anywhere but in the USA and some 3rd world
countries having a civil war, and even then ...
I would venture the opinion that a rifle that uses .50 caliber ammunition
would be considered a military weapon. Certainly it would have to be
mounted in a fixed and braced position for most people to fire it without
being knocked over (how about it, you gun enthusiasts: didn't elephant
guns fire a round about that size?). There are undoubtedly more
conventional rifles that would serve that purpose and that would be
acceptable to authorities of other nations. Many places require you to
turn over all weapons anyway, especially if you don't have them in an
arrangement that is lockable and sealable.
Colin S.
--
Cheers, Tony &/or Colin Starratt ________\ enthusiastic about Keeshonden,
/ Pomeranians, cats, sailboats,
sundry sporting activities and
handicrafts.
CarlHK
>the late 70's to early eighties you may have had cause to worry,
>but I haven't seen or heard of a problem down here in recent years.
Agree. I live in Miami Beach and have spent time sailing the area and the
Bahamas. No pirates as far as I can tell or hear. Alot of drug activity
common in the 80s has abated, especially near Andros. However, there are
plenty of happy-go-lucky, drunk powerboaters who threaten life and limb,
do they count? : ) On a serious note, the biggest threat around here is
theft. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but geez, I've lost two
dinghies in no time here-- and I try to be careful! : (
>If you are planning on firing on a boat "from a distance" you had better
>be 100% sure you know who they are. I was approached by a very suspicious
> looking boat (big go-fast with four 200 mercurys) while I was looking
> for conch east of Bimini one day. There was no-one else in sight and
> they approached so that I could not see them clearly until they were
>30 feet away. It turned out to be a DEA agent, a Customs officer,
> a Coast Guard officer and a Bahamian Defence Force officer. If I had
> started waving guns at them I would have been in big trouble.
Agree. As I mentioned in previous discussions on firearms, a gun is a
thing of LAST resort, not FIRST. It is to be used only in the gravest of
extremes. Brandishing firearms at other boaters at a distance is foolish
and a sure recipe for disaster. Such behavior is illegal and seems more
likely to spark a fight than avoid one. How do fellow boaters know you
ARE not the pirate, what with waving guns in their direction for no
reason?
Why are we discussing firing at a boat at a distance anyway? 1) At a
distance it is impossible to tell friend from foe (and in any case 99.9%
of other boaters will be friend). You probably won't know trouble is at
hand until the bad guys are close by. 2) Even if you could distinguish
foe from afar, do you think you are going to hit anything firing at a
moving target from a rocking-and-rolling platform? Have you tried
shooting under these conditions? I can almost guarantee you won't rise to
the occassion.
I do not really see the need for carrying a Ruger Mini-14 (0.223 caliber)
semi-auto rifle that I have seen alluded to in this thread. Yes, it is
the choice among many boaters: stainless steel, rugged, reliable, and
stone simple to operate. It will easily reach out to 200 yards. But what
are you really going to with the darn thing? Because most situations in
which you can conceivably need a firearm will be at close quarters, such
as an attempted boarding by goblins, the most important variables in
selecting a weapon should be 1) speed of access and 2) lethality at close
ranges. A pistol probably meets the first criterion, a shotgun definitely
the second. The Mini-14, with its surgical appearance looks very much
like an assault weapon; add a folding stock and a nice size banana clip
and you will certainly scare the beejezus out of customs officials, who
may well wonder if you aren't into a bit of piracy yourself sailing the
seas with such a weapon (yes, looks are important). For many reasons the
shotgun is the preferred shipboard firearm. These include: a) lethality
at close ranges, b) easier to hit targets from moving/unstable platforms,
c) psychological impact on intruders, d) ease of maintenance under
maritime conditions, and e) it is LEGAL in virtually any country you will
sail to and f) does not alarm authorities. Pistols scare officials
(concealability), are difficult to use proficiently, often lack effective
stopping power and have short range. If you feel the need to carry one
the Ruger GP-100 revolver in .357 magnum is probably a good choice. Other
folks swear by any of the Glock autoloaders; I would stay away from them.
Whatever you want to take, make sure you know how to use it, use
common-sense and maintain the equipment (especially ammunition).
I strongly suggest that people who are overly paranoid, do not have a
straight head on their shoulder, loads of common-sense, and plenty of
training and practice using firearms avoid taking them aboard. If you
have made the decision to assume responsibility for your own defense and
decide to take a firearm with you (as I have), you have the utmost
responsibility to know what the hell you have with you (this aint the
movies) and insure the weapon does not injure yourself or innocent people.
You also have a responsibility to those you love of making sure the many
liabilities of having a firearm aboard do not get you into more trouble
than if you did not have one in the first place.
-Carl
Ed Kelly
>
>
>The original question was what type of gun to carry. Mossberg makes a
>good quality 12 guage shotgun in a special finish to resist marine
>elements. This is one good option. I carry a stainless Colt 10mm and am
>looking for a stainless Ruger Mini 14 with a folding stock. If I ever
>have to use a gun at sea, I prefer to do it from a distance.
>
the late 70's to early eighties you may have had cause to worry,
but I haven't seen or heard of a problem down here in recent years.
be 100% sure you know who they are. I was approached by a very suspicious
looking boat (big go-fast with four 200 mercurys) while I was looking
for conch east of Bimini one day. There was no-one else in sight and
they approached so that I could not see them clearly until they were
30 feet away. It turned out to be a DEA agent, a Customs officer,
a Coast Guard officer and a Bahamian Defence Force officer. If I had
started waving guns at them I would have been in big trouble.
--
Ed Kelly
email - Ed.K...@mail.hcsc.com -or-
ed.k...@mail.hcsc.com -or-
e...@ada1.ssd.csd.harris.com ------------------- Phone (305) 973-5340
===========================================================================
CarlHK
easily verified by contacting the Consulates of Malaysia, Indonesia or
China in Washington (they will scare the beejezus out of you). Another
good source of information is the International Maritime Bureau in London,
which tracks piracy incidents worldwide.
I post the following short article, transmitted over the Agence France
Presse (AFP) news wire on March 2 concerning piracy in Southeast Asia:
03/02 PIRATES POSING AS FISHERMEN TERRORIZE SHIPS
KUALA LUMPUR, March 2 (AFP) - Pirate attacks are on the rise with bandits
now posing as fishermen and maritime officials in a switch of tactics to
prey on small vessels plying Southeast Asian waters, officials said
Thursday. At least 13 piracy cases have been reported in the past two
months, with nine of them occuring in January. "We have warned ships
coming to this region to be on the alert on the renewed piracy threats,"
Beverley Brown, the Kuala Lumpur-based regional manager of the
London-based International Maritime Bureau (IMB) told AFP. Brown said
Indonesian waters remained a potential flashpoint. The English language
New Straits Times reported Thursday maritime authorities
learned of the new ploy when pirates impersonating coast guard officials
intercepted the cargo ship MV Kafu Maru, enroute to Taiwan, in Indonesian
waters on January 7. They escaped with several cartons of cigarettes
worth thousands of ringgit after overpowering the crew, the daily said.
The captain, however, was able to alert the authorities and in a follow-up
operation, five suspected pirates were arrested by the Indonesian
authorities. Several other piracy cases have been reported in recent
weeks. The London-based IMB, in a report on global piracy released last
month, said pirate attacks on ships in Southeast Asia more than doubled
last year, with most cases in Indonesian waters. Attacks around
Indonesia doubled to 22 last year from 1993, pushing the total number of
attacks in Southeast Asian waters to 33. Shipping officials have for
some years called the Southeast Asian region a hotbed for pirates, who
have used violence in their thefts and in some incidences, killed their
victims. END
We should all remember that incidents against pleasure boats often go
unreported or if reported, are often not classified as piracy but filed
along with common criminal reports (burglary, murder, etc.)
I think we face far fewer criminal risks at sea than elsewere, but nasty
things do happen out there.
-Carl
John Camp
than half the cases where the cops drew their weapons and fired them, they
screwed up somehow -- shot at the wrong people, hurt themselves, got their
guns taken away, shot somebody accidently, damaged in
John Camp
it instead. So to finish it...
In years of covering crime as a newspaper reporter, I suspect that in more
than half the cases where the cops drew their weapons and fired them, they
screwed up somehow -- shot at the wrong people, hurt themselves, got their
guns taken away, shot somebody accidently, accidently or unnecessarily
damaged innocent people in some way. When a cop does it, we let it go
because we believe that he or she was trying to prevent a crime -- and the
city pays for the damage anyway.
But my point is this -- if reasonably well-trained guys make a very
high level of error in critical circumstances (guys who deal with
physical confrontation on an almost daily basis, who train regularly with
their weapons, who rehearse all kinds of gunfight senarios...and who still
screw up all the time) then the chances of a boater making an error is much
higher. And boaters are not cops, with the cop's immunity. if a boater makes
an error, he goes to jail -- in many places, there is a 3-year minimum
prison sentence for a "mistake" made with a gun, and the judge has no
discretion in the matter.
So the way I see it is this. If I take a gun on a boat, there may be ten chances
in ten thousand that I'll wind up drawing it; nine of those times I'll be mistaken,
and I'll go to prison. The tenth time, I'll be right, and I may save somebody's
life; I may still go to prison, but I'll feel right about it.
Given those odds, which I think are overstated on the chances-of-use line
(of every ten thousand trips out of South Florida, I doubt guns are drawn
as many as ten times), I'll go without a gun.
I do, by the way, own and use a number of guns; I have nothing in particular
against them. I just think that anyone who goes boating with a "I-may-need-
a-gun" mindset could be a little dangerous to himself.
John Camp
CarlHK
>So the way I see it is this. If I take a gun on a boat, there may be ten
chances
>in ten thousand that I'll wind up drawing it; nine of those times I'll be
mistaken,
>The tenth time, I'll be right, and I may save somebody's
>life; I may still go to prison, but I'll feel right about it.
>Given those odds, which I think are overstated on the chances-of-use line
>(of every ten thousand trips out of South Florida, I doubt guns are drawn
>as many as ten times), I'll go without a gun.
>I do, by the way, own and use a number of guns; I have nothing in
particular
>against them. I just think that anyone who goes boating with a
"I-may-need-
>a-gun" mindset could be a little dangerous to himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
At the risk of pounding this issue to death, I think we should
re-emphasize the purpose of having a firearm aboard. It is an instrument
of last resort. A weapon you utilize when you are convinced if you didn't
use it you would lose your life or the life of a loved one. I think if
you view it this way there is little chance of drawing a weapon
erroneously or misusing it either from the legal or moral perspective.
If a life-threatening situation does not present itself you do not draw a
weapon. Period. End of story.
If there is a physically-threatening situation, which I define as meeting
three criteria: 1) Someone wants to hurt you, 2) that someone has the
means of hurting you, and 3) you cannot run away or otherwise avoid the
situation, you then draw a firearm.
Can you honestly say you would rather be without a firearm if goblins
board your boat wanting to get to know your wife and daughter a little
better, perhaps even wanting to get to know you better? Hmmmm. I cannot
see how a firearm can get you into more trouble if you are already on the
threshold of serious injury or losing your life, don't you think? Why
does the U.S. Coast Guard recommend that boaters who take to the seas be
armed? Why does the marine patrol (State of Florida) issue the same
advice? Why do U.S. Customs officers say the same thing? Strange, eh?
I do agree wholeheartedly that anyone who has a firearm for other reasons
than those stated above or who is not properly trained in using the weapon
is probably better off not carrying one in the first place. I also
believe anyone who carries a firearm must earnestly research and reflect
on the legal and moral consequences of carrying a weapon.
I agree it is a remote chance one will ever have to resort to a firearm.
By the same token, I also feel it is a remote chance I will sink or
capsize, yet I carry a liferaft, an EPIRB, and several other pieces of
safety equipment.
Anyway you look at it, I cannot imagine myself going down without having a
fighting chance to safe myself or those close to me.
-Carl
cho1...@dial.eunet.ch
In article <3ji0rd$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, <car...@aol.com> writes:
> Xref: chsun rec.boats:61386
> Path:
chsun!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!ne
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> From: car...@aol.com (CarlHK)
> Newsgroups: rec.boats
> Subject: Re: Boat Defence Against Pirates
> Date: 7 Mar 1995 11:15:41 -0500
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> Reply-To: car...@aol.com (CarlHK)
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Well folks, I was boarded by a group of Djibuoti oppositional fighters about
two years ago.
First of all, they approached with small fishing boats equipped with 70 hp
outboard engines. Nothing really serious you would think, but they had two
boats, each with a 1/2 inch machine gun which looked a bit rusty but I would
not bet on that. On top of this they had bazookas and every one the inevitable
AK47 in various models.
What kind of a cruiser equipment would you want to use agains such a threat???
We were in the Bab el Mandeb just inside the territorial waters of Djibouti,
nobody cares about a call on 16 and nobody would be at hand quickly enough
anyway.
We were questioned about our presence and warned that there was a civil war
(which hardly anybody knew about) in the area, that they were fighting the
government e.t.c. and after passing over some cigarettes were sent off to
international waters.
- There is no defence against sombody who wants your skin.
- Do you have the trained personnel to defend your boat, along with the heavy
equipment? I am talking of means which allow you to sink the opponent on quite
some distance.
- Modern pirates are even better equipped than that little group of partisans.
Mega
Alan M. Horowitz
Alan M. Horowitz
specific point has some merit.
On the other hand, if you use a gun correctly, you don't feel better - you
survive, and prevent your wife from getting raped.
I don't own a boat, but if I did, I would be tempted, when sailing in foreign
waters, to do the opposite of what many people reccommend - display firearms
very ostentatiously every time another boat approached me.
The best gunfight is the one that was deterred from happening.
If you have to pull out a weapon because you suddenly realize that you're a
second or two from being boarded by hostiles, you've already lost control of
the situation, and might be in a world of shit.
I certainly realize that this behaviour might get one viewed as the bad guy
by totally unarmed, innocent/goofy pleasure boaters. Or given a lot of
attention by martime patrols. In other words, scare the horses.
Well, so what? I carry openly (legal here) when using an ATM at night. I've
drawn a few looks. I feel it is an overwhelming deterrence to attack by the
sort of opportunistic criminals that our system has taught crime against
unarmed victims _does_ pay......
Alan M. Horowitz
This is a thread about piracy. You didn't encounter anything of the sort.
SE Asian pirates are as well armed as some of the poorer coast guards - heck,
they might _be_ renegade national units. The defense is to not enter those
waters in pleasure craft. Period.
The pirates-of-opportunity who are extant in the Caribbean are deterable.
Lee Bell
Florida and the Bahamas, which it appears is an accurate statement.
While there have been far fewer reported cases of piracy in this area
recently, the risk is still there and so is my gun.
The individual who was approached in the Bahamas by the U.S. Customs and
Bahamian officials needs to have his eyes checked. The boats they use
are clearly marked.
As for shooting before boarded, my reference was to a boat approaching
without permission. This means the boat is close, has not hailed me in a
way which suggests they have a legal right to approach and is unwelcome.
If my request to stand off does not do the trick, about half a dozen
shots in the water will certainly let people know I'm not interested in
company. I can't imagine having a problem with legal authorities, I've
never, ever known them to approach without hailing, identifying, etc.
If someone comes up in high powered boats with machine guns, even I'm not
foolish enough to brandish my weapon. If they want me, they have me.
The main point of this, however, is that I carry a firearm on board for
what I consider legitimate reasons and I think it inappropriate for those
who do not live, operate or otherwise experience the conditions where I
am to judge whether I should have a gun or not.
If you don't feel the need to carry a firearm on board, don't. Since I
do feel the need and am not, in any way, endangering others, leave well
enough alone.
No, I'm not angry, just concerned.
--
Brian Ryba
NEVER had a problem.
Austin Whitten
can safely sail around our planet, indeed, even live at all (why
stop at boats?), without having a gun. How you view the basic
nature of human beings will determine the degree of risk you
think you are under. I have never had much luck in changing
someone's mind on that subject. If you feel that danger from your
fellow man (gender allowed - statistics show they are usually
men) is just around the corner, then so be it.
There seems, however, to be a general agreement that guns on
boats, if present, should always be the court of last resort. I
will argue then, that practically speaking, the "ultimate
solution" is never justified, and that in all cases I have
personally heard about, it represents either a failure of
perception or of imagination.
How can one argue for NOT having a gun aboard a cruising boat, or
indeed, for not owning a gun, period, after hearing about a man
who saved his wife - by his description, a very pretty model -
from being raped in their luxury power boat (perhaps a sailboat
owner's perception - ALL powerboats appear luxurious. Come to
think of it, they all seem to have pretty women aboard too) in
the Bahamas by displaying a .38 calibre handgun, and by firing it
in the general direction of the fleeing, would-be assailants?
My first thought on the situation seemed to be flip - perhaps men
with gorgeous wives and plush boats SHOULD have guns. For the
rest of us, we can carry on as we always have, not seeing any
need for same. The more I thought about this, the more I realized
that this was the basic truth of the situation.
My wife and I have been cruising offshore for 12 years now, and
we have sailed half way around the world. Our boat is currently
in the South Pacific. Patricia is very pretty, but she was never
a model. "Discovery II", our Vancouver 27, is usually the
smallest sailboat in an anchorage.
I am a small boat advocate. One of their advantages is the small
physical and psychological "footprint" impression they leave with
local people. In cruising out of the way places, where most of us
would rather be, we are usually among locals who, if they own
boats at all, have small boats. Many times, we feel our invasion
of their space is better tolerated because of our boat's size.
Perhaps one cannot expect to sail into any port one chooses,
flaunt what one has, and expect to get away with it without
taking precautions. Judging from my last visit to the United
States, where I stayed in a "gated community" and encountered an
armed guard in the local candy store (in Beverly Hills and Santa
Monica, respectively), it seems that many expect not to get away
with it back home either.
Those precautions could legitimately consist of arming yourself
to the teeth. Several places we have visited - Panama immediately
comes to mind - do just that. There are armed guards, with semi-
automatic rifles, patrolling every shopping mall in Balboa and
Panama City.
If you make the choice, however, of not living by the gun, then
what could one have done in the Bahamas story? Assuming the facts
of the potential rape scenario as given us are essentially
accurate, especially that the assailants were clearly out to
"having my wife", with no possibility of mistaken communications,
then one has to look at the basic situation, I think, to see how
things could have gone differently.
Going into a bar after dark - any bar, anywhere, anytime -
carries with it a certain risk, not like, say, going into a tea
shoppe. My wife tells me some women are naturally flirtatious -
many times unconsciously. Do I need my wife to tell me this?
Perhaps the bit about it being unconscious. We will assume this
woman was not.
It is common knowledge that in the Caribbean and the Bahamas, the
locals have a more conservative dress code than is practiced in
other parts of the world. I will also assume that the man's wife
was not being foolish enough to enter a bar after dark wearing
clothing that could be considered provocative by the natives. I
think that I can also assume that she was not dressed like a
Muslim either. Otherwise, the interest in her would not have been
there.
Why was she not dressed like a Muslim? If this sounds extreme,
consider what we are being told we must do in the South Pacific
if we plan to visit island groups that are infested with the
malaria mosquito - to avoid going ashore after dark and if we do,
to wear clothing with long sleeves, trousers and stockings.
Plenty of repellant, of course. Sounds glamourous, right?
If one needs to routinely do this to avoid being bitten by an
insect, could one not consider doing it to avoid being "bitten"
by our fellow man? Is taking avoiding action not preferable to
having an instrument for causing human death in your possession?
If this is not your idea of fun, you could consider getting a
less flashy boat (I hesitate saying finding a more unattractive
partner).
I can, and will, comment on any other incidents that seem to
imply a gun is necessary in one's life, but I think you get the
idea. One can never be sure - an argument cannot be made that a
situation will never arise where only having a gun would save
your bacon - but if you realize that you have more control of the
situation than you think (and it really isn't that bad out there,
really), the need for a weapon becomes statistically
insignificant. (You have more reason to want to take one on
airplanes, which are routinely targeted by terrorists, than on
your boat, but if you did, you would become a potential terrorist
in the eyes of the authorities, which of course, is how you are
perceived when you sail into harbour with a gun on board).
If the need for a gun is miniscule, then, you are far safer not
having one and avoiding it's associated risks. No matter how much
training and discipline you acquire, can you be sure, in the few
stressful seconds you would likely have to make a decision, that
you will make the right one? If you are not confident that you
can recognize potentially dangerous situations before they arise,
and either avoid or defuse them, then perhaps training in this
area would be a better idea than training that teaches you to
take deadly aim. I believe this is the approach when dealing with
people who have a propensity for placing themselves in the role
of a victim.
Yours respectfully, Austin Whitten aus...@inforamp.net
Toronto, Canada
CarlHK
>can safely sail around our planet, indeed, even live at all (why
>stop at boats?), without having a gun. How you view the basic
>nature of human beings will determine the degree of risk you
>think you are under. I have never had much luck in changing
>someone's mind on that subject. If you feel that danger from your
>fellow man (gender allowed - statistics show they are usually
>men) is just around the corner, then so be it.
Human nature is infinite in its variations, which is why we are
interesting as a species don't you think? : ) There is incredible
kindness and horrendous cruelty peppered with everything in between. To
say "all people are fundamentally good" or "all people are basically bad"
are both in my mind equally mistaken statements. Some of us are wicked,
some wonderful, virtually all a combination of both.
>There seems, however, to be a general agreement that guns on
>boats, if present, should always be the court of last resort. I
>will argue then, that practically speaking, the "ultimate
>solution" is never justified, and that in all cases I have
>personally heard about, it represents either a failure of
>perception or of imagination.
Hmmm, failure of perception? When an armed assailant breaks through the
door of your house or illegally boards your boat it seems to me difficult
to miscontrue what is going on. Do you think the fellow may have barged
in to borrow a cup of sugar? Perhaps he needs an extra impeller for his
intake pump and that is why he brought the large knife along? I do agree
wholeheartedly that a firearm is an instrument of last resort and anything
short of a life thretening situation does not justify use of lethal force.
I agree (from experience) that it is highly unlikely one has to resort to
a gun, but I would rather have the means to defend myself and not need it,
then need it and not have it.
>How can one argue for NOT having a gun aboard a cruising boat, or
>indeed, for not owning a gun, period, after hearing about a man
>who saved his wife - by his description, a very pretty model -
>from being raped in their luxury power boat (perhaps a sailboat
>owner's perception - ALL powerboats appear luxurious. Come to
>think of it, they all seem to have pretty women aboard too) in
>the Bahamas by displaying a .38 calibre handgun, and by firing it
>in the general direction of the fleeing, would-be assailants?
Well, assuming the facts of the story are correct, I will turn the
question back to you: You are on a small Vancouver 27 and two men, one
armed with a knife boards your boat and rush for your wife (in this day
and age, they may also want to get to know you a little bit better too,
no?) 1) What is your perception of the situation? 2) How do you
extricate yourself from the situation? 3) Assuming you survive the ordeal,
how do you think you will feel after the situation? I assume you will
resist the attackers in some fashion, right? First with diplomacy and
trying to talk the men out of what they are doing and then with force --
grabbing a lamp, a stick, what have you at hand. Or maybe you won't resist
because it is possible to get hurt even further, right? So, the goblins
rape your wife in front of you and then maybe rape you in front of her. Or
am I misconstruing this situation?
My point is (referring back to your earlier comment on human nature) some
people are capable of horrendous deeds. Sorry, but that's true. And I
don't want to be caught in a similar situation and not have a fighting
chance. Hey, I'm not paronoid about this issue -- I realize chances of
any of this happening are small. But if I need to defend myself I will not
settle for a candlestick or a lamp. I want enough force to at least give
me a chance. After extenisve research I settled on a 12 ga. shotgun,
which remains out of sight, but easily accessible.
>Perhaps one cannot expect to sail into any port one chooses,
>flaunt what one has, and expect to get away with it without
>taking precautions. Judging from my last visit to the United
>States, where I stayed in a "gated community" and encountered an
>armed guard in the local candy store (in Beverly Hills and Santa
>Monica, respectively), it seems that many expect not to get away
>with it back home either.
Sadly, perhaps you are right, and the decision to carry a firearm may well
hinge on the areas of the world one goes sailing. Where I sail (Florida,
Bahamas and the Caribbean), the U.S. Coast Guard, in addition to several
other law enforcement agencies, recommend being not only armed, but well
armed. they have enough reports of attacks on boaters to scare the
beejezus out of you. Of course, if I felt it was so dangerous I wouldn't
go sailing at all -- my experience, like yours, is that it is very safe
(I'm probably more at risk at land), but I also recognize that on my boat
help may be far away I would like to be prepared.
>If you make the choice, however, of not living by the gun, then
>what could one have done in the Bahamas story?
[advice on dressing conservatively, avoid teasing or flirting with men,
etc. deleted]
>If one needs to routinely do this to avoid being bitten by an
>insect, could one not consider doing it to avoid being "bitten"
>by our fellow man? Is taking avoiding action not preferable to
>having an instrument for causing human death in your possession?
No one doubts that avoiding trouble and exercising common-sense is much
better than resorting to violence to defend oneself. We all agree on
that. But, there are times that no matter how careful you are, how kind
you are, how generous and good-natured you are, and how much common-sense
you possess, evil may descend upon you. It happens every day. Sorry, but
that is life. (In next week's thread rec.boats analyzes: If God exists and
he is good, why is there so much evil?)
>If the need for a gun is miniscule, then, you are far safer not
>having one and avoiding it's associated risks.
Yes, of course, until god forbid you need a firearm. Then what?
>No matter how much training and discipline you acquire, can you be sure,
in the >few stressful seconds you would likely have to make a decision,
that
>you will make the right one? If you are not confident that you
>can recognize potentially dangerous situations before they arise,
>and either avoid or defuse them, then perhaps training in this
>area would be a better idea than training that teaches you to
>take deadly aim. I believe this is the approach when dealing with
>people who have a propensity for placing themselves in the role
>of a victim.
The wisest thing for me seems have both approaches: 1) Learn how to steer
clear of trouble. Be diplomatic. Be courteous. Smile alot. USE
COMMON-SENSE! 2) When all of that fails and you are in danger of losing
your life you resort to lethal force. How to distinguish a "dangerous
situation?" I would describe it as a situation in which if you didn't have
lethal force backing you up, you might be seriously injured or hurt. You
may tell me chances of that happening are small, but you can't tell me
they are small enough not to be concerned with (this may vary depending on
your situation and locale and where you sail).
You can take the approach of guns being potentially problematic and avoid
them. Fair enough, you will have avoided the liabilities of having a gun
aboard. But you also forego the potential benefit, that it may one day
prevent a bad situation from getting worse. It may one day save your
life. If that is a fair trade for you, then we have no argument -- you
have made a rational choice. But I hasten to add that such thinking in my
mind is a little bit akin to my friend who does not carry a life raft
aboard. " Why spend the money? Geez, and I have to maintain the darn thing
once a year? And what are my chances of capsizing or sinking? Even if I
do sink I've got my lifejacket and EPIRB and exposure suit. Who needs a
life raft?"
A firearm is like a life raft, you may never need it, but if the day comes
when you need it would you want to be without it? Like a life raft, a
firearm, if used properly, can prevent a bad situation from getting worse,
which is why I carry one.
-Carl
P.S. I yearn for a kinder world. I wish people would not hurt others. I
want peace on earth. I am gentle and generous. But, he/she who does not
stand up to evil when confronted with it, will either be destroyed or
enslaved. Sorry to sound so apocalyptic, but I think its true, no matter
how distasteful or wacky it sounds. Put your head in the sand, do plenty
of hand-wringing against violence, walk away from instruments that can
hurt others (like I once did), it will all be for naught if some day your
path crosses the person who will not hesitate to use violence against you.
Ed Kelly
>
>The individual who was approached in the Bahamas by the U.S. Customs and
>Bahamian officials needs to have his eyes checked. The boats they use
>are clearly marked.
My eyes work just fine, thanks. The boat that approached me was a ~35'
center console with a blue hull and four Mercury outboards. As I said
in my posting the crew included a DEA agent and a Coast Guard officer as
well as the Customs and Bahamian Defense Force officers. There were no
markings on the boat to identify it as belonging to any one of those
four agencies. They were within 30' of my boat before I recognized
they were in uniform, as they were all standing behind the console
as they approached.
Thomas W. Hood (703)913-4308
<snip>
>
> Well, so what? I carry openly (legal here) when using an ATM at night. I've
> drawn a few looks. I feel it is an overwhelming deterrence to attack by the
> sort of opportunistic criminals that our system has taught crime against
> unarmed victims _does_ pay......
I tend to hang out is scummy pool halls sometimes and the folks I know
there would not be deterred in the least if you were displaying a gun.
In fact they would probably shoot your ass without warning _then_ take
your hard earned cash. I doubt you _really_ want to get in a small
arms pissing contest with these folks, they're used to it, you're not
(at least I should hope you're not).
Terrence D. Sargent
sailboat. I do not carry firearms, though after 27 years in the Army I
am qualified on most small arms and automatic weapons and after two tours
in Viet Nam have convinced myself that I would have the ability to use a
weapon in self defense. I'm not a "make my day" person, just one who
loves life and doesn't want to hasten it's termination.
There are times, certainly, when a firearm on board would be useful. But
please look at the practical side that comes from having one on board.
Practically, the only time it would be useful is when you are making a
passage from one country to another - i.e., you have cleared customs at
your last port and have not yet checked in at another. This is when you
would encounter the "pirate" situation and my suspicion is that a small
arm is just too small to ward off another threatening vessel - an RPG
(rocket propelled grenade) would be the smallest thing appropriate to
the threat.
Why wouldn't it be of use when you REALLY need it, as when you are
hopping from one secluded anchorage to another and are more likely to
encounter what we call the "rascals" (and rascals have been known to kill)?
The simple truth is that when entering a new country you are required to
declare if you have weapons. Answer this question in the affirmative and
they will always (in my experience) be taken away and secured until your
departure from that country. And this can interfere with your cruising
plans for a country since it isn't always convenient or necessary to
check out at the same place you check in. Reclaiming a weapon, which has
been unavailable to you when you most likely would need it, requires
returning to the same entry port.
So you decide to hide the weapon and say, "no weapons on board". Stupid.
If you are searched, and this happens frequently, and weapons are found
then you stand a chance of landing in jail and having your boat
confiscated .. at least a hefty fine and a denial of entry. If you get
through this without them being discovered and you later either brandish
the weapons to scare someone off (in which case the coconut wireless
works too well - directly to the authorities) or you maim or kill someone
in self defense, you are in deeper trouble than you can imagine for not
having declared the weapon in the first place.
Leave all of your moral, macho, and ethical debates ashore ... along with
your weapons. It just isn't PRCTICAL.
Terry Sargent, Yacht VALHALLA, Valh...@Kuentos.Guam.NET
--
Barton Tecter
Can this debate stand the interjection of such good common sense as Terry
has voiced?
--
Barton Tecter bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
Nantucket 33 "Pirate Jenny" "Nothing goes to windward
Ottawa Canada like a 747!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ed Kelly
This posting was also referring to openly carrying firearms in
foreign waters to deter potential pirates. I hope that all the people
who are promoting this attitude know the attitude of the foreign
governments towards this. Most countries do not have a liberal
attitude toward firearms. In particular, if you travel to the Bahamas
(which is the area that was originally being discussed in this thread),
you must declare your weapons and an EXACT count of your ammunition.
Should the authorities there find on your boat more or less rounds
of ammunition on your boat after that declaration, and you don't
have a good reason (like a report with the local police as to why
you have been firing rounds), to have a different count, they will
more than likely impound your boat and put you in a jail cell.
Fgd3
> declare if you have weapons. Answer this question in the affirmative
and
> they will always (in my experience) be taken away and secured until your
> departure from that country.
Not in the Bahamas. They simply require that you keep the gun in a
lockable compartment.
--Fabbian G. Dufoe, III
350 Ling-A-Mor Terrace South
St. Petersburg, FL 33705
813-823-2350
fg...@aol.com
Lee Bell
countries request (well that's how they put it) you not bring arms
ashore, but so far, no one has given me grief about weapons aboard.
The advice to check in advance, however, is very good.
CarlHK
(car...@aol.com)
wrote: : >What ARE the international regs on shipboard armament?
: -Carl
--
Lee Bell
a021...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Lee Bell
a gun aboard anytime I'm out of sight of land. Neither my wife nor I are
likely to point the gun at anyone except in extreme circumstances, let
alone fire it. We prefer to avoid trouble than to deal with it. If/When
the time ever comes that evasion is not an option, I'll be glad the gun
is aboard. I'll continue to carry it and hope I never have a use for it.
--
Lee Bell
a021...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Sean F Holland
: My experience is the same. I claim my arms and have no problems. Some
: ashore, but so far, no one has given me grief about weapons aboard.
: The advice to check in advance, however, is very good.
: CarlHK
: (car...@aol.com)
: wrote: : >What ARE the international regs on shipboard armament?
: : -Carl
: --
: Lee Bell
: a021...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Hand guns can be a serious complication and may be confiscated in some
countries (ie Mexico). Weapons can be a problem if you end up going to a
country that does not allow guns, when plans change. Cuba for example
does not want cruisier to arrive with guns, and everyone going there tht
I have talked with has left their weapons home prior to departure for
Cuba. IF you have miscounted your ammunition and your declaration does
not agree with your actual count in the Bahamas there can be a fine of I
believe $50.00 per round in error, and you are usually escorted or towed
back to Nassau to resolve this error. In fifteen years of cruising, I
have not had one instance where a gun was necessasry, however during this
same time, I have spent countless hours filling out paperwork, going
miles out of my way, and spent long hours waiting for the proper official
to retrieve a weapon that was being held until departure.
any countries require that you depost your weapons with customs when you
first arrive, and then pick them up when you clear out. Not a problem in
St. Georges Bermuda, since you come and go from the same location, but
can be a major headache when you with to clear in at Yost van Dyke, and
then clear out from Virgin Gorda. Good hunting. sfh
Sean F Holland
a027...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us