Is it possible to rebuild boats and come out ahead?
tsch...@gmail.com
major auto company), is getting tired of the "lunch bucket" job, and is
really addicted to boats. Sounds good so far, andyhow, he's wanting not
necessarily to quit his job but look into a paying hobby. He looks on
ebay and the like, and sees damages, or neglected cruisers going for
what sems to be a song. and is thinking of setting up a business for
not necessarily restoring but totally rebuilding boats. This is done
with about anything on the market today, from computers to major
aircraft. He saw a charity auction sell a 36 foot Chris Craft
(fiberglass) Cruiser for about $400.00 which was rather neglected, but
seemed to have a sound hull. He's thought of totally disasembling the
boat, putting in new, modern refinements re wiring, re-gelling,
re-painting, re brightening or replacing the hardware, overhaulling the
twin GM's etc, and he thinks he can do this..resell... put into show
room condition....... and make a profit.
I told him I thought it was pretty risky, because auto customizers
usually can't sell a car for more than they have in it. Well, I
suppose some can but I'm sure many can't.
Does anybody do this as a professional company?
Tim
DB Rea
Bath Iron Works does this with guided missile frigates for the Navy... ;-)
tsch...@gmail.com
True, but they are commissioned with a heavey tax check....LOL!
I'm just talking about buying a boat dirt cheap, rebuilding/remodeling,
then reselling it.
Looks to me like ye olde phrase be true. I suppose some could take the
risk, but.....
"A boat is nothing more than a hole in the water surrounded bywool,
metal or fiberglass, that the owner does nothing more than consistantly
poor money into"
tsch...@gmail.com
True, but they are commissioned with a heavey tax check....LOL!
I'm just talking about buying a boat dirt cheap, rebuilding/remodeling,
then reselling it.
Looks to me like ye olde phrase be true. I suppose some could take the
risk, but.....
"A boat is nothing more than a hole in the water surrounded bywool,
metal or fiberglass, that the owner does nothing more than consistantly
pour money into"
Roger Derby
worth anything, he's unlikely to be able to quit his day job.
This is from personal experience, at least with the wiring side. I've been
bitten several times by the immense number of hours needed to wire a control
panel or run a cable.
Roger (Every five minute task takes three hours.)
der...@NOSPAMearthlinkNOSPAM.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
<tsch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132108011....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tsch...@gmail.com
taking it down to the bare hull and starting over!
But I deffinately agree with what you are saying. Plus a building rent
for where he is located would cost an arm and a leg. he lives in a
residential area and doesn't have enough enclosed space for the boats
he's been looking at.
I really don't see how he can come out ahead, but.....
BTW, sorry about the "double post, I tried to correct some spelling
after I hit the send key and thried to catch it on the run...LOL!
tsch...@gmail.com
MFJ's get all their stuff at contract "bargian basement" pricing.
And replacing a complete final drive could require a major sized check.
Peggie Hall
> I think that another thing he's really not looking at is that the OE
> MFJ's get all their stuff at contract "bargian basement" pricing.
Weeelll...that still doesn't necessarily make it unprofitable. My last
boat was a project boat (1980 Trojan F32 flybridge sedan)...sound, but
in non-running and uninhabitable condition. I didn't gut it to the hull,
but I did replace everything on it, completely rewired it and replumbed
it, and added/upgraded a BUNCH of things...by the time I was done, the
only things I hadn't replaced were two C-318 long blocks, the Onan 6.5kw
longblock and the Raritan waterheater. I'd budgeted replacing those, but
didn't have to. I bought almost everything at retail discount--(only
the sanitation equipment at OEM price)...and paid "retail" labor rates
for almost all the work. And still came out ahead. I paid $25k for the
boat...put about $18k into her ($3500 went into a new bottom and having
everything above the waterline wetsanded and teflon coated)...sold her
for $48k. Had I been able to get her at a price that some of the
hurricane salvage boats are going for, I'd prob'ly have only had to put
$2-3k more into hull repair, which would have made it very profitable,
especially for someone who can do a lot more of the work than I was able
to do. And there will be a lot of people who will buy and restore those
boats very profitably.
The key is: find out what a particular make/model year is going for in
your neck of the woods (NADA and BUC are good starting places, but local
factors can make a big difference)...cost out EVERYTHING, worse case
scenario...put some value on your labor...then do the math to find out
whether you can do it profitably or not.
Oh...one more thing: everything has to be done to ABYC, USCG, NFPA, UL
and any other standards, or a buyer won't be able to finance it or
insure it (they'll all require a survey for a restored salvage, or even
just an older boat). So there is a major learning curve to climb.
As for a "shed" to work in...a friend in RI who's rebuilding a 38'
sailboat (he gutted it) bought and erected a huge "industrial tent"
structure on his property...ran power to it, built scaffolding, etc...I
don't know what that kind of thing costs, but it's gotta be a LOT less
than renting space.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?fno=400&group=327
tsch...@gmail.com
those are some things to be considered.
I'm valueing all the opinions I have gotten so far.
Sounds like you did "ok"
Tim
tsch...@gmail.com
>boat...put about $18k into her ($3500 went into a new bottom and having
>everything above the waterline wetsanded and teflon coated)...sold her
>for $48k.
a 5K profit isn't bad especially when you hired all the work.
I hope you got to enjoy it a bit before the new owners took it over. ;)
Peggie Hall
Yep...and I had the use of the boat for 4 years too.
There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats" available,
some which only need cosmetic work, others which need a lot more. If
you want to do this, I suggest you start by finding one you'd like to
own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it
right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain
point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for
another one to restore.
Fwiw, I'd do it again in heartbeat...not with the idea of making a
profit, but to have everything on a 32-38' boat for <$50k that would run
$175-250k for comparable new...and with class and style too, instead
of something that looks like the inside of a refrigerator or a
fiberglass showerstall with upholstered seats.
tsch...@gmail.com
>own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it
>right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain
>point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for
>another one to restore.
Thanks Peggy. I'm going to pass this thread to my cousin. It sounds
like it would be a fun venture, but I myself don't have the finances,
nor the location to pursue this notion.
I'm in S. IL. which the only good piece of water for a big cruiser is
Carlyle Lake and thats pretty small for these types of boats. I've got
an 18 ft Chris Craft runabout, and that pretty well does it for me. I
used to have a 27 ft, Chris Craft Cavalier but the old wood hull was
too much for me to keep up with. I found out that the bigger the boat,
takes the bigger the pocket! LOL!
Jerry is down on the Mississippi though, and he's been asking some
questions, and I thought I'd post here to get a mild summary.
You made some excellent points!
Tim
Don Dando
about 10 years but over the past 40 years have built from scratch numerous
wood boats.
Yes there is good money to be made doing this work if you have space for
several boats at a time and a separate paint booth. You can not do one at a
time and shut the shop down until paint dried or glue sets, you need to be
working on the next boat while these things occur on the first boat.
The most important part is a solid contract that requires a deposit before
you begin work and allows for the customer to "escape" from the contract by
paying for the work to date in the event a major and expensive problem is
found as you dig into the boat. Include sufficient money in the deposit so
that you will not be out the cost of materials and work performed before the
major problem was found. Tackle potential problem areas first if possible.
Very few customers will pay you the money they owe you then take their boat
to the local landfill There is almost always something hidden that could
not be included in the initial estimate because it was not visible. If the
customer exercises the "escape" clause then there needs to be a enforceable
agreement concerning how soon the customer has to remove the boat from your
premises before you cut it up for fire wood. The best of customer
intentions fall apart when a major expense is uncovered and they decide not
to proceed, without an agreement about removal, you end up storing it
forever thinking he'll be there tomorrow! Then years later when you finally
dispose of it, the owner shows up the next day with his lawyer! With a
written agreement and a register letter that has a verification of receipt
returned to you, you will lessen your obligations to store it for excessive
periods.
A daily storage rate must be part of the original contract that stands out
clearly and the customer initials to signify that he has read and
understands the terms and risks of not picking up his boat within X-Number
of days after completion or after determining that work is to be stopped.
Until you move into volume business you'll not buy materials at volume
prices. Your start up profits will be somewhat low in order to remain
competitive. Until you "hone" your skills and are able to buy in quantities
that qualify for good discounts you will be working somewhat "cheap" but
then again you are in the learning curve of the business and can not demand
the rates and earnings of an old pro.
There is great satisfaction when you transform a rotted out piece of junk
into a beautify collectors item.
You can not do a perfect job overtime and you must learn to correct flaws.
Sometimes when a boat clearly needs a new bottom, the customer will reject
that need and only want you to put on new sides and decks. Give him benefit
of your knowledge that it will be a lot more costly to put on a new bottom
after the sides are already in place. Remember that the customer is always
right and what he wants is what you need to do AFTER advising him of the
consequences. I have had experiences where this occurred and the customer
then sold the boat. The new owner then brings the boat in for a new bottom,
but at that point the bottom is much more expensive that it could have been
initially. But after all, that's what I'm here for, to earn money doing the
work customers want.
Find a good supplier for fasteners, some will give you a start up hand by
allowing minor initial discounts which improve if you become a repeat
customer.
Would you plan to outsource the seats? That adds significantly to your cost
of a rebuild. The seats need to be redone and in place when you return the
boat to the customer, it provides an impressive finishing touch. I have had
to purchase 2 industrial sewing machines and learn to do upholstery work.
Here again a supplier relationship is essential.
Would you plan to sand blast and repaint the trailer? It makes a restored
boat look a lot better than a rusted trailer with chipped paint and worn out
tires, an inoperative tongue jack and inoperative winch. You'll need to
find a sand blasting company and a source for trailer tire purchases and
mounting. Inspect and repack the trailer wheel bearings. Advise the
customer if the bearings and seals are defective. Include on the contract
just what work the customer wants you to do to his trailer.
You will want to devise a method to turn boats over when replacing the
bottom, at least on modest sized boats. You can not count on 6 good friends
coming to your shop overtime you need to turn a boat or you will be wasting
valuable time.
I would not get a Sales Tax Number initially, this will only force you to
file quarterly tax returns, even though some quitters you turned out no
work. A Sales Tax Number is sometimes required by supplier to prove that
you are actually in business and deserve a discount, so you will take your
"lumps" there but that beats the quarterly returns.
I promise to have the boat done when it is finished. I never know exactly
what hidden problems could affect a schedule so I don't make wild time
estimates that I may be unable to keep and irritate a customer, nor do I
drag my feet.
I provide prospective customers with referrals to previous customers with
their permission.
Most of all.... As they say, "Don't quit your day job" until you can no
longer afford to go to it and are earning enough for health care insurance
and a retirement plan.
It is a great vocation and requires skill, business management, dedication,
long hours initially, and resourcefulness. But it is worth it.
Don Dando
<tsch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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tsch...@gmail.com
Or having an interior that looks like a cheap fishing camper...
tsch...@gmail.com
just from your writing that you have experience and have at one time or
another graduated from the "school of hard knocks"
Jerry isn't looking to do work for customers, however. He's wanting to
buy good hull boats re-working and re-selling. So he can avoid a lot
of "customer problems" that you have mentioned. I know what it's like
in the auto-electric business to give somebody a quote...sink a lot of
money in parts& labor, just to hae them abandon it and leave it for me
to take up shelf space, THEN come back a year later wanting me hand it
over etc.
"OR" wanting me to "fix it as cheap as possible" then come back a few
months later complaining that it didn't work anymore , and hearing "you
just REBUILT that a a few months ago!"
Never again!
It didn't take long to
tsch...@gmail.com
Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Nov 26, 4:51 am).
If you buy a fixer boat you are cutting out the money lender. Instead
of making payments to a bank you are making the payment to a materials
supplier at your own pace and as your dragon hoard allows. This
assumes you have a dry place to work and neighbors who don't mind the
smoke and roar and racket and that you don't mind being exposed to
carcinogens and being filthy and broke and bone weary for years at a
time. Not that I regret a minute of it except the fiberglass layup
part.
I believe some people could conceivably make money doing what you
propose but then those type of people would probably make money doing
anything and lot's more of it doing something else besides boat
fixing. Good luck and happy sailing or whatever.
LOL! I like that part about the "dragon hoard"
Thanks!
Denis Marier
Yes if you know the boat inside out your labor is free and the equipment and
material do not cost you much and have the cash money to do it. All your
time, effort and material should be under the current value of the
refurbished boat. Otherwise it become a work of love and passion.
I am just returning from a Sailboats shopping trip in Eastern United States.
Over there I have learned that some people are buying sailboats in lot in
the United Stated.
They bring them into Canada cosmetically fixe them and sale them with a
profit.
Conversely, If you buy with the intent to fixe a boat and keep it for
yourself for years to come it becomes another story.
One of the classic financial case study used at most university is to find
out if it is worth it to refurbish a 30 -40 years old ferry boat versus
investing in a new one. The evaluation model used is called the present
value. It computes all known costs, (refurbishing, borrowing,
operating,maintenance, insurance and monetary gain) and project the value
over a period of time in the future and bring it back to today's value.
Then there are always the things that no one can evaluate with exactness.
<tsch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132436429....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
P.C. Ford
<speed...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Mr. Dando,
I've done runabout restoration for about 25 years. I enjoyed your
reply regarding making money doing restoration on rec.boats.building.
I would like your permission to post it on the Wooden Boat mag forum.
there is a similar thread running there.
Thanks.
pcf
P.C. Ford
If you wish to reply by mail, send to username, pcford and domain name
criterionweb.com
DSK
might have changed just a little.
> tsch...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Thanks Peggy!
>>
>> those are some things to be considered.
>>
>> I'm valueing all the opinions I have gotten so far.
>>
>> Sounds like you did "ok"
>
Peggie Hall wrote:
> Yep...and I had the use of the boat for 4 years too.
>
Which is a great value in itself, but not one that puts bread 7 peanut
butter on the table.
> There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats" available,
Yep. Far more than the market can absorb. Most of these boats are landfill.
> some which only need cosmetic work, others which need a lot more. If
> you want to do this, I suggest you start by finding one you'd like to
> own. Then you can take all the time you need to learn how to do it
> right, have the use of the boat once you get it past a certain
> point...and then decide whether to keep it or sell it and look for
> another one to restore.
>
The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the insurance
claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as a sistership
that was not storm damaged... plus the 2nd-hand boat market is in the
dumper right now. Everybody says "Pristine boats always sell" and that's
pretty close to true, but they don't always sell for their asking price.
> Fwiw, I'd do it again in heartbeat...not with the idea of making a
> profit, but to have everything on a 32-38' boat for <$50k that would run
> $175-250k for comparable new...and with class and style too, instead of
> something that looks like the inside of a refrigerator or a fiberglass
> showerstall with upholstered seats.
>
I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was
properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works
and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are.
But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd suggest
what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will allow you to
sell boats for a profit... period... and you should become a broker, not
a fixer-upper.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Peggie Hall
> Peggie, wasn't it a couple of years ago that you sold your boat?
> Things might have changed just a little.
The new AND used boat market has always been, and will always be,
cyclic...or have you forgotten that you couldn't give a boat away in the
late '80s-early '90s? By '95, the market had recovered, but there will
always be a glut of used boats 'cuz fiberglass, unlike wood, can last
forever...by 1999, 67% of all boat sales had become used boats. The
market is depressed again, but that's the boat biz. There's an old joke
among boat builders: How do you make a million $$ in the boat building
biz? Start with 2 million and get out quick.
> Which is a great value in itself, but not one that puts bread 7
> peanut butter on the table.
That's not why I restored it.
>> There will always be old or storm damaged "project boats"
>> available,
>
>
> Yep. Far more than the market can absorb. Most of these boats are
> landfill.
More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many...
but not nearly as many as you might think belong there.
> The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the
> insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as
> a sistership that was not storm damaged...
What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't.
The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...and if it's
properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial.
> plus the 2nd-hand boat
> market is in the dumper right now.
That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered...it
will again. And there's a much better market for used boats in pristine
condition than for new ones...by '99, 67% of all boat sales were used
boats...that number is only gonna get higher.
> Everybody says "Pristine boats
> always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always
> sell for their asking price.
They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions.
When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.
> I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was
> properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works
> and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are.
Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more
often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's
not always done right, it's done the least expensive way. I could have
achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower
quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have
done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I
also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend)
bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right
according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing!
I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than
plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in
the previous 25 years.
> But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd
> suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will
> allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should
> become a broker, not a fixer-upper.
One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right. :) I could never be
a successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to
hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats
worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't
in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=40&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304
DSK
>> landfill.
>
Peggie Hall wrote:
> More of 'em than should may end up there because there are so many...
> but not nearly as many as you might think belong there.
>
heh heh maybe so, but I'm not the one that decides. Right now there are
a LOT of 'fixer-uppers' waiting in boatyard lots, clearly supply exceeds
demand in this particular commodity. And this past hurricane season
created so many more that there are acres of them being stored by
insurance companies pending settlement/disposal.
>
>> The problem is that a storm damaged boat will always have the
>> insurance claim on it's record, and will not ever be as marketable as
>> a sistership that was not storm damaged...
>
Peggie Hall wrote:
> What "record?" Vehicles have that kind of paper trail, but boats don't.
They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do
you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't
keep a record??
> The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...
I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for
getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value
of the boat. Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them
you paid for the boat.
Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you
negotiate with a seller, but the problem then becomes getting insurance
without professionally correcting his punch list. Others seem to almost
function as brokers assistants. It's a highly variable profession, the
one constant is that you should definitely follow your surveyor around
like a little puppy and learn everything you possibly can from him.
> ... and if it's
> properly repaired, even structural damage is immaterial.
>
Yep. One of the beauties of fiberglass, it truly can be made as good as
new... the problem is that you can't tell what's under the gleaming
surface... is it just skin deep or a truly proper repair? Some details
like the filleting & tabbing etc etc give clues as to the workmanship of
the repairperson.
>
>> plus the 2nd-hand boat
>> market is in the dumper right now.
>
>
> That much is true. But it's been there before and it's recovered...
True. All you need to do is wait!
>> Everybody says "Pristine boats
>> always sell" and that's pretty close to true, but they don't always
>> sell for their asking price.
>
>
> They do if the asking price is realistic for current market conditions.
Bingo.
That's what I'm sayin' !!
> When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
> for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
> recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.
>
That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.
One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a
given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go down.
>> I enjoy having the confidence that major equipment on my boat was
>> properly selected & properly installed, and also knowing how it works
>> and where all the key hidden bits & pieces are.
>
>
> Except for very high end boat builders, OEM equipment selection is more
> often based on price, not quality...and as for OEM installation, it's
> not always done right, it's done the least expensive way.
That's putting it politely.
Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either.
> ... I could have
> achieved the same result for about $5k less had I opted for lower
> quality materials and equipment...even less than than if I could have
> done more of the work myself...but I restored the boat for MY use. I
> also had one of the best surveyors in the country (a close friend)
> bird-dogging my every move to make sure everything was done right
> according to all the standards...she wouldn't let me short-cut ANYthing!
I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.
> I've said many times that I learned more about systems other than
> plumbing in the 2 years I spent restoring that boat than I'd learned in
> the previous 25 years.
>
It's certainly an educational experience. That amy be one reason why I
prefer working on boats to working on my house... the house isn't going
anywhere and it's a big PITA... the boat is an adventure waiting to happen!
>> But as for fixing up trashed boats & selling for a profit, I'd
>> suggest what you really need is the kind of salemanship that will
>> allow you to sell boats for a profit... period... and you should
>> become a broker, not a fixer-upper.
>
>
> One really needs to be a bit of both to do it right. :) I could never be
> a successful broker...I'm too straightforward...sellers don't want to
> hear what I'd tell most of 'em they'd have to do to make their boats
> worth what they THINK they're worth. And unless they did it, I couldn't
> in good conscience represent 'em as anything but "project" boats.
>
A while back we were selling a car and I met a few of the potential
buyers. One guy looked it over, listened to me and said "Are you really
trying to keep me from buying this car?" I said 'No, I just want to make
sure you know what you're getting. There are lots of other cars you can
go buy if you want to pay more and get a free pair of rose colored
glasses.' I'm not a salesman!
DSK
Peggie Hall
> They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records. Do
> you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and doesn't
> keep a record??
But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured. Fewer than 10%
of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less
how to search a boat's history.
>> The only thing that matters for a boat is its survey value...
> I disagree strongly here. A "survey value" is primarily of benefit for
> getting insurance. It says nothing at all about the current market value
> of the boat.
Not so, Doug...most lenders also require a survey on most used boats.
> Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them
> you paid for the boat.
Not any legitimate ethical surveyor! When I bought the Trojan (for cash
btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of
things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover
it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except
for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my
insurance would be cancelled.
>
> Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help you
> negotiate with a seller...
Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor.
> but the problem then becomes getting insurance
> without professionally correcting his punch list.
Yup.
> True. All you need to do is wait!
Unless you're buyin'...:)
>> When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than $45k
>> for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market had
>> recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.
>>
>
> That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
> inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.
The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty
much flat in the '90s. However, I was able to get the original 1979
factory-dealer invoice for the Trojan...she had a retail list of $97k
with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and
other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had
doubled the price of a comparable new boat.
> One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
> interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for a
> given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will go
> down.
That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was
done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for
$43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no
payments.
> Hiring a pro doesn't always result in a very good job, either.
There are pros...and there are them who call themselves pros. Ya gotta
be careful who to pick.
> I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
> knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
> helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.
That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. :) She has sat on and/or chaired
every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's
forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn. I didn't have her survey
the Trojan when I bought it...she'd surveyed it for the last 3 owners,
knew every inch of it...so we spent a rainy Sunday in her office going
over her files and costing out "worst case" and finally coming up with a
fair "as is, where is" offer to the estate of the elderly man who owned
her. She didn't do the insurance survey either...she was in Savannah in
charge of risk management for Oympic racing venue. She did survey it for
the buyer when I sold it, though...and even though she's a friend, and
had bird-dogged everything I did to it...to the extent that I'd have bet
real money she couldn't find a thing that needed correction, she did!
Nothing major, but that lady doesn't even cut her friends ANY slack when
she works for someone else! :)
Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they
all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out
there.
DSK
>> Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and
>> doesn't keep a record??
>
Peggie Hall wrote:
> But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
> don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
> insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured.
That's a possible problem.
Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small
amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard
accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to
file a police report.
But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be
documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too
cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a
guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.
> ... Fewer than 10%
> of boat buyers even bother with a survey or know they should, much less
> how to search a boat's history.
>
For big boats? Really? I didn't know that. Even brand new boats should
get a buyer's survey.
>> Many surveyors will amiably write down what you tell them you paid for
>> the boat.
>
>
> Not any legitimate ethical surveyor!
Whoa there! There is no breach of any ethics, and I've heard it
happening quite a lot... that's on both coasts, too. The yacht surveyor
is not an economics expert and he's not a salesman, nor is he a repair
contractor. A surveyor is *not* an appraiser of dollar value, he is an
appraiser of the boats functional condition!
Market value goes up & down by season, by location, by the whims of
national & local economics... asking your surveyor for a hard dollar
appraisal is simply hanging numbers in mid air. Most likely he's got a
good idea, possibly better than the buyer. But the one who can tell you
what the last 5 boats of that type actually changed hands for is the
broker... but he has a vested interest in getting the higher possible
price out of the buyer.
The surveyor does not have a vested interest other than giving
information to the buyer. Assigning a value to the boat which allows the
buyer to finance or insure the boat is no breach of ethics... or even
etiquette... unless he's doing something like colluding to get a
kickback... or if he allows the buyer to remain ignorant of a safety
issue with the boat, which is his real job anyway.
> ... When I bought the Trojan (for cash
> btw) I needed a survey for insurance. The surveyor gave me a list of
> things that had to be corrected in order my insurance carrier to cover
> it for anything but "port risk"--iow, it couldn't leave the slip except
> for any mechanics' sea trials. I had 30 days to correct, or my
> insurance would be cancelled.
>
Yep. That's not so unusual.
>>
>> Some surveyors seem to specialize in 'knock-down' surveys that help
>> you negotiate with a seller...
>
>
> Again, no legitimate ethical surveyor.
You have a funny idea about ethics. This is *exactly* why the buyer
should not run out and hire the surveyor recommended by the broker.
>
>> True. All you need to do is wait!
>
>
> Unless you're buyin'...:)
>
heh heh an eager buyer is like a lamb being led to slaughter.
>>> When my husband died in '92, I'd have been lucky to get more than
>>> $45k for my 34 Sea Ray...by the time I sold her in '96, the market
>>> had recovered...I had no trouble getting $60k.
>>>
>>
>> That was good, although a small part of that would be accounted for
>> inflation and better bank rates at that time frame.
>
>
> The galloping inflation of the '80s was over by then...it was pretty
> much flat in the '90s.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but that's not quite true. Inflation was
"flat" at 2% ~ 3% which could add up over 4 years to ~ $5k, or about 1/3
of the gain in your price. Significant? IMHO it is.
> with all the factory upgrades and options. By 1996 '80s inflation and
> other factors (fewer new units, same overhead for boat builders) had
> doubled the price of a comparable new boat.
>
Same thing has happened with sailboats. But the basic designs have
gotten better, so you're getting something for the money. And keeping
them has gotten cheaper (relative to inflation) most places.
>> One of the issues that affect boats, cars, & houses, is the going
>> interest rate. If that rises (which it's sure to do) then payments for
>> a given boat (or car or house) will go up and it's marketability will
>> go down.
>
>
> That's the beauty of restoring a "project boat"...by the time I was
> done, I had everything a $180k comparable new boat had to offer for
> $43k--which is about what you'd have to put down on a new one. And no
> payments.
>
Yep... and you had a boat that you were familiar with, equipped the way
you wanted, instead equipped the dealer wanted.
I'm all in favor of fixing up boats, I just don't think it's a practical
way to make a living except for very few people.
>
>> I think I know exactly who you mean, a feisty old gal and extremely
>> knowledgable. She did a boat survey for us and did me a big favor by
>> helping dis-enchant my wife with a boat that was a disaster.
>
>
> That would indeed be Bolling Douglas. :)
Yep. She's the top.
> ... She has sat on and/or chaired
> every industry standards committee and the board of ABYC...she's
> forgotten more than most surveyors ever learn.
I'd also be interested in her opinion on whether or not surveyors are
responsible for giving buyer a cash value appraisal of the boat ;)
(I'm cheating, she had an apprentice in tow when she surveyed our
avoid-at-all-costs boat and I heard what she told him on the subject).
>
> Unfortunately, there's no regulation for surveyors that guarantees they
> all have to be that ethical...'cuz there are a bunch of charlatans out
> there.
>
Well, I wouldn't go that far... a few, sure... most become surveyors
because they love boats. There are drunks and incompetents in every
field. Boat surveying is really complex and there is no way you can look
at *everything.* The first rule of thumb is that your surveyor is going
to miss something. A good surveyor (and I think most are pretty good)
are more like detectives in that they are hunting for clues about past
or impending problems, because you'd have to disassemble the boat... or
operationally test it under severe conditions... to actually see the
problem first hand.
Y'know this has wandered quite far from the original question.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Peggie Hall
this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.
Peggie
DSK wrote:
--
DSK
> Doug, I think we've taken up all the bandwidth on this NG we should on
> this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
> of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
> considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
> to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
> peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.
>
> Peggie
Uh oh. I hope I'm not in trouble
DSK
Roger Derby
then the decision to buy hull insurance depends on one's fortitude.
(Liability insurance is a different matter.)
I haven't looked into the premiums for boats, but on my aircraft I figure
I've saved over $5,000 over the last ten years by self-insuring. While it
might have been possible to get reimbursement for hanger rash and dings, it
was too painful a prospect to consider compared to paying a hundred or two
for a replacement wing tip. I'd expect the hassle factor to be even higher
for a home-built boat or one on which the owner/claimant had done
significant work. (Pre-existing damage????)
Does your insurance really inspect your boat regularly to make sure you are
caring for it properly?
Roger
der...@NOSPAMearthlinkNOSPAM.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
"DSK" <d...@dontbotherme.com> wrote in message
news:rfqgf.3880$KP1....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<snip>
> But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be documented.
> Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was
> too cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost
> a guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.
>
<snip>
tsch...@gmail.com
>this subject...rec.boats.building still has the lowest trash-value ratio
>of any NG...I'd like to help keep it that way, and this has wandered
>considerably afield from anything to do building or repair. If you want
>to move the discussion to email, I'll be glad to continue it:
>peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net.
>Peggie
Peggie and Doug, and to all that have added...
This has been fantastic! I've forwarded this thread to my cousin
Jerry, hoping he'll respond when he gets back from vacation. I'm no
boat builder, but I've learned a lot from this thread. I'd wish you all
could keep adding. after all, this IS a NEWSGROUP isn't it???
Wasted bandwidth? LOL! At least theres no 340+ posts on trashing
jet-ski'rs!
Tim
Peter Wiley
<d...@dontbotherme.com> wrote:
> >> They do if you know how to search USCG and insurance comapny records.
> >> Do you think an insurance comapny pays out $10K+ on boat claims and
> >> doesn't keep a record??
> >
>
> Peggie Hall wrote:
> > But the boat would have to be documented--most aren't...some states
> > don't even title boats--and the buyer would have to know who the
> > insurance company was--if in fact, the boat WAS insured.
>
> That's a possible problem.
>
> Officially, any accident or loss involving a claim of a fairly small
> amount (IIRC it's around $600) must be reported on a Coast Guard
> accident form. Just like if you put in a claim on your car, you have to
> file a police report.
>
> But you have a good point, not all storm damage is going to be
> documented. Personally, I wouldn't buy a boat from a guy who was too
> cheap or too stupid to have it insured, because IMHO it's almost a
> guarantee that he didn't take good care of it.
Strongly disagree. Take 2 different scenarios.
A daysailer. Who bothers to insure one? I don't insure mine. Ditto
small power vessels etc.
A blue water sailboat. To get insurance on one is difficult at all, and
from what I've been told comes with a list of restrictions WRT crew
numbers, allowable passage times/places etc etc.
Better to spend the money on more safety gear, better anchors etc.
PDW
Brian Cleverly
Now that all the theorists have had a say, I'd like to jump in with a few words.
I've been doing what your cousin is thinking of doing for 10 years now.
Is it a viable proposition ? Not if you intend it to be your only source of
income, and certainly not if you have no prior experience in the work.
I've kept at it because I love the work, and I am officially retired, so the
boat work is secondary income.
"Word of mouth" has generated a lot of customer repair work, which is nice, but
it takes time away from the rebuild projects.
When I resell a boat I generally get around double current market price for it,
*AND* I have a waiting list of buyers. BTW, I specialize in FRP sailboats.
Even at that, I consider myself lucky if I clear actual expenses over the life
of the rebuild. I say "actual" expenses because I do not draw pay, so my labor
is not accounted for.
One has to be extremely careful in choosing a boat to rebuild. It has to be a
popular brand/model and it has to be one that requires the least amount of work
possible consistent with the purchase price. I have been unlucky just once and
that was a boat I intended to keep for my own use (eventually cut up for
landfill). Some of the cost was recovered in selling off parts from it, but I
still lost money overall.
One must do a first class job, otherwise word will get around that your jobs are
slipshod and you'll quickly lose business. With all my rebuilds (as opposed to
repair jobs) I strip to a bare hull and rebuild from the ground up. All
electrical is renewed, as is all plumbing, and running rigging. Every fastener
in the boat is discarded and replaced with new. All tabbing is renewed and
every manufacturing defect (and there are always a lot of them) is corrected as
a matter of course. Any other item that I consider is past its prime, or that I
can not refurbish, is replaced with new. Usually the boat receives a full paint job.
Some examples are on my website, www.anzam.com .
An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate" because of
the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice... You *must* arrange to
buy at at least wholesale due to the high markups on anything to do with our
business (read "Marine")... Certainly you might be able to arrange some small
discount for things like fasteners but you won't get a meaningful discount on
higher ticket items unless you can prove you are in the business and the first
item of proof requested is your "Resale Number". Usually, a pre-requisite to
obtaining a resale number is having a business license.
Taxation implications are such that you have to have a reasonable accounting
system in operation and if you set that up correctly, doing the State Sales Tax
reporting is not an item. Just make certain you keep absolute track of sales
tax received so you don't spend it on other items.
Financing the business can be a problem. When rebuilding for resale you have to
allow for the fact that you'll be putting out money for at least 12 months
before you see any income. Fortunately, I am able to take advantage of the
continual zero APR offers I get from card companies which allows me to change to
a new card every 12 months and never have to pay interest.
If your cousin cares to contact me direct I'll be more than happy to answer any
specific questions he might have.
Regards,
Brian C
Peggie Hall
>
> An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate"
> because of the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice... You
> *must* arrange to buy at at least wholesale due to the high markups on
> anything to do with our business (read "Marine")...
Having been both a wholesale distributor and a mail order retailer,
you're right...BUT--not everything is cheaper wholesale. The discount
retail prices can often be less than dealer price (toilets are just one
example)...so while I agree that getting a sales tax certificate isn't
optional, it essential, it also pays to shop the discount retail prices
instead of blindly buying everything wholesale. With a tax #, you can
buy most things retail without also paying the sales tax...if you have
to pay it, you can deduct it from either the quarterly sales tax owed or
on your business income tax return. Which makes the other thing you
advised--a good inventory based accounting system--absolutely essential.
Brian Cleverly
> Brian Cleverly wrote:
>
>>
>> An earlier respondent advised against getting a "Resale Certificate"
>> because of the hassle involved... That is just pure bad advice...
>> You *must* arrange to buy at at least wholesale due to the high
>> markups on anything to do with our business (read "Marine")...
>
>
> Having been both a wholesale distributor and a mail order retailer,
> you're right...BUT--not everything is cheaper wholesale. The discount
> retail prices can often be less than dealer price (toilets are just one
> example)...so while I agree that getting a sales tax certificate isn't
> optional, it essential, it also pays to shop the discount retail prices
> instead of blindly buying everything wholesale. With a tax #, you can
> buy most things retail without also paying the sales tax...if you have
> to pay it, you can deduct it from either the quarterly sales tax owed or
> on your business income tax return. Which makes the other thing you
> advised--a good inventory based accounting system--absolutely essential.
>
Absolutely agree on all points Peggy...
I didn't mean to imply wholesale was the only way to go... In fact I've been
known to buy via Ebay on more than one occasion when the high bid was under the
best I could get elsewhere.
Brian C
DSK
> Excuse me. Insurance companies are profit centers. If one has paid cash
> then the decision to buy hull insurance depends on one's fortitude.
I dunno, is risking the whole cost of an expensive toy
"fortitude"?
It may be cheaper in the short run, and you may get lucky,
but shipping businesses buy insurance for their vessels, so
it isn't just a rip-off game by insurers.
> (Liability insurance is a different matter.)
Yes, in many places it's required.
>
> I haven't looked into the premiums for boats, but on my aircraft I figure
> I've saved over $5,000 over the last ten years by self-insuring.
Well, I know a lot of people who have made an informed
choice to not insure their boats... same thing as
"self-insurance" only not as politically correct. Frankly
IMHO the cost of insuring an item is part of the cost of
owning it... if bad luck takes it from you, you couldn't
afford to own it anyway. But it's a very tempting choice
because it's an unrecoverable cost... like renting a slip...
> Does your insurance really inspect your boat regularly to make sure you are
> caring for it properly?
Some do. One of my jobs is to do insurance surveys on power
plants, and this includes evaluating the skill & knowledge
of the operating crew. Commercial vessels have to go through
the same thing. In general, though, they don't care...
perhaps people who "self-insure" are more intelligent &
motivated? Or maybe they're just tightwads?
From what I've seen, most people who skimp on insurance
skimp on other things too, and don't care enough about their
boats anyway. There certainly are exceptions, and they're
usually obvious.
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
tsch...@gmail.com
from a macerator pump ...(Well, I really do..LOL!)
but I'm getting a lot of ensight on what this would actually involve.
tsch...@gmail.com
Brian, that's nothing short of impressive!
I'm glad you posted the work.
DSK
> I've known two full fledged citizens who had "proper" insurance on
> expensive boats. Neither of them could get more than $1000 for their
> $200k boats, one after being cut in half by a Mexican shrimper run by
> a man who reeked of liquor and was too short to see over the wheel
> house ledge.
Really? Well I know a guy who was walking his dog one day
and the dog was piddling on a mailbox of a very nice home
when a car pulled up, a rich guy jumped out and said "I'll
buy your house for half a mill!" He handed over a suitcase
full of money and the guy with the dog said "sure" and
signed the papers. Later on he counted the money and found
it was only $485,000 but it wasn't his house so he didn't
complain.
Luck averages out over time. That's why insurance, on the
whole, is a smart gamble.
I'd also suspect that your "full fledged citizen" had some
sort of fault with his insurance.
> ... If a bank owns your boat and you are in your home country
> it might be a different
Yeah, especially if you make sure that your boat is insured
for that region. It makes a big difference.
> .... but I don't get that impression, especially
> for people who own their boat outright. That kind of thing is
> discouraged in america.
Ummm... what kind of thing? Owning a boat outright?
> ... If the insurance co doesn't pay you're still
> liable so what's the point in paying them to charge you money?
>
???
If you carry liability insurance, which is required in most
states AFAIK, then you don't pay a dime until the max
liability of the policy is exceeded. Since a million bucks
of liability insurance is very cheap (at least for those of
us who rarely have accidents) it's a great bargain. The
insurance company will send a very good lawyer to protect
their million bucks.
DSK
Tim W
<tsch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132808445.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> This has really been interesting, seeing I don't know a bildge pump
> from a macerator pump ...(Well, I really do..LOL!)
>
> but I'm getting a lot of ensight on what this would actually involve.
I have an idea. I will tell you once and once only because i have had a glas
of whiskey and i may put it into practice myself.
Find cheap shed. Take on restoration and repair work STRICTLY BY THE HOUR
like a garage mechanic, get some skilled kids in from college, pay £10/hr
and charge £40/hr, ONLY ON OTHER PEOPLE'S BOATS, because boat owning is an
emotional business and therefore one in which people will waste money and
you should NEVER SPECULATE on the potential gain because it is more risky
than honest hard graft. Ugly truth? yes.
Tim W