Rema patch fun
carl...@comcast.net
whether they can be peeled off, and what happens if you ride off on a
freshly glued patch.
This is where the thread began discussing patches:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/6d3d853c1c4fe8ce
Today, I pulled the tube out of my rear tire, lanced it with a
sharpened spoke, laid it on the customary round arm of my basement
vise, scraped at it hopefully with the cheese-grater built into my
patch-roller, brushed some Rema glue on the tube, waited five minutes,
put a Rema patch over the hole, ran the metal roller over it wildly,
popped the tube back into the tire, inflated it to 110 psi, put the
wheel in my bike, put on my costume, hunted around for my camera bag,
and rode off 17 minutes after I brushed the glue onto the tube.
At 13.5 miles on my daily 15-mile ride, I noticed that my rear tire
was going flat and stopped. Rather than change the tube, I just pumped
it up with my Topeak Road Morph and finished the ride.
As I suspected, the problem was a goathead puncture unrelated to the
test patch. The slime tube sealed things well enough to get home.
(It's not unusual for me to find several slow leaks when a tire
finally goes flat, and this one had lasted since January, an
extraordinary life-span partly due to missing almost a month of rides
due to snow.)
When I carefully peeled the patch off about 90 minutes after I put it
on, the patch came off about as reluctantly as the other patches that
had cured for 2 months or longer and had never been ridden.
There's arguably less black on the test patch's orange surface, but it
was stuck very, very firmly to the tube.
Here are 5 Rema patches, all peeled off my 700c inner tubes:
http://i16.tinypic.com/4361kx0.jpg
Left-click on the lower right in Explorer for a picture large enough
to see the tiny cross-hatching on some patches. Hard-to-see black
lines show where seams ran under the patches.
A-cold carefully peeled C-cold quick peel, 2 pieces
cured over 2 months cured over 2 months
black less black
B-cold quick peel, 2 pieces D-hot carefully peeled
cured over 2 months cured over 2 months
less black much less black
E-test patch
cold carefuly peeled
ridden 17 minutes after glue applied
removed 90 minutes after glue applied
much less black
A, B, C, and D were patched and stored as spares for at least two
months before being peeled. Those four patches were never ridden on.
E was rolling within minutes of the glue being brushed onto the tube
and was removed after touching the tube for only 90 minutes.
No patches showed any sign of air separating the patch from the tube
at the puncture, much less any Slime fluid intruding.
Slow, careful peeling removed A intact.
Quick peeling ripped B & C off the tire in two large chunks, leaving
edge material behind on the tube.
Heating with a 100 watt light bulb helped the color of D, making it
more orange, but the patch still seemed just as hard to remove. (Much
more heat might have let it peel off easily.)
All five patches came off very, very reluctantly. A normal person
would probably say that they couldn't be peeled off. Only a truly
silly RBT poster would scrabble at them hard enough with his thumbnail
to remove them.
As far as I could tell, there was no real difference in how tightly
the patches stuck to the tube, but a patch might well peel off a tube
right after gluing.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
------------------->no, just less black
>
>A, B, C, and D were patched and stored as spares for at least two
>months before being peeled. Those four patches were never ridden on.
>
>E was rolling within minutes of the glue being brushed onto the tube
>and was removed after touching the tube for only 90 minutes.
>
>No patches showed any sign of air separating the patch from the tube
>at the puncture, much less any Slime fluid intruding.
>
>Slow, careful peeling removed A intact.
>
>Quick peeling ripped B & C off the tire in two large chunks, leaving
>edge material behind on the tube.
>
>Heating with a 100 watt light bulb helped the color of D, making it
>more orange, but the patch still seemed just as hard to remove. (Much
>more heat might have let it peel off easily.)
>
>All five patches came off very, very reluctantly. A normal person
>would probably say that they couldn't be peeled off. Only a truly
>silly RBT poster would scrabble at them hard enough with his thumbnail
>to remove them.
>
>As far as I could tell, there was no real difference in how tightly
>the patches stuck to the tube, but a patch might well peel off a tube
>right after gluing.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
An email pointed out that patch E, the test patch, is not "much less
black"--it's about as black as patches B & C.
My mistake can't even be called a typo. I just plain goofed, switching
back and forth from picture to text.
CF
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> In a current thread, the topic has wandered off to Rema patches,
>> whether they can be peeled off, and what happens if you ride off on
>> a freshly glued patch.
>> This is where the thread began discussing patches:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/6d3d853c1c4fe8ce
>> Today, I pulled the tube out of my rear tire, lanced it with a
>> sharpened spoke, laid it on the customary round arm of my basement
>> vise, scraped at it hopefully with the cheese-grater built into my
>> patch-roller, brushed some Rema glue on the tube, waited five
>> minutes, put a Rema patch over the hole, ran the metal roller over
>> it wildly, popped the tube back into the tire, inflated it to 110
>> psi, put the wheel in my bike, put on my costume, hunted around for
>> my camera bag, and rode off 17 minutes after I brushed the glue
>> onto the tube.
>> At 13.5 miles on my daily 15-mile ride, I noticed that my rear tire
>> was going flat and stopped. Rather than change the tube, I just
>> pumped it up with my Topeak Road Morph and finished the ride.
>> As I suspected, the problem was a goat head puncture unrelated to
>> the test patch. The slime tube sealed things well enough to get
>> home.
>> (It's not unusual for me to find several slow leaks when a tire
>> finally goes flat, and this one had lasted since January, an
>> extraordinary life-span partly due to missing almost a month of
>> rides due to snow.)
>> When I carefully peeled the patch off about 90 minutes after I put
>> it on, the patch came off about as reluctantly as the other patches
>> that had cured for 2 months or longer and had never been ridden.
>> There's arguably less black on the test patch's orange surface, but
>> it was stuck very, very firmly to the tube.
>> Here are 5 Rema patches, all peeled off my 700c inner tubes:
http://i16.tinypic.com/4361kx0.jpg
>> Left-click on the lower right in Explorer for a picture large
>> enough to see the tiny cross-hatching on some patches. Hard-to-see
>> black lines show where seams ran under the patches.
>> A-cold carefully peeled C-cold quick peel, 2 pieces cured over 2
>> months cured over 2 months black less black
>> B-cold quick peel, 2 pieces D-hot carefully peeled cured over 2
>> months cured over 2 months less black much less black
>> E-test patch cold carefully peeled ridden 17
>> minutes after glue applied removed 90 minutes
>> after glue applied much less black
> ------------------->no, just less black
>> A, B, C, and D were patched and stored as spares for at least two
>> months before being peeled. Those four patches were never ridden
>> on.
>> E was rolling within minutes of the glue being brushed onto the
>> tube and was removed after touching the tube for only 90 minutes.
>> No patches showed any sign of air separating the patch from the
>> tube at the puncture, much less any Slime fluid intruding.
>> Slow, careful peeling removed A intact.
>> Quick peeling ripped B & C off the tire in two large chunks,
>> leaving edge material behind on the tube.
>> Heating with a 100 watt light bulb helped the color of D, making it
>> more orange, but the patch still seemed just as hard to
>> remove. (Much more heat might have let it peel off easily.)
>> All five patches came off very, very reluctantly. A normal person
>> would probably say that they couldn't be peeled off. Only a truly
>> silly RBT poster would scrabble at them hard enough with his
>> thumbnail to remove them.
>> As far as I could tell, there was no real difference in how tightly
>> the patches stuck to the tube, but a patch might well peel off a
>> tube right after gluing.
> An email pointed out that patch E, the test patch, is not "much less
> black"--it's about as black as patches B & C.
> My mistake can't even be called a typo. I just plain goofed,
> switching back and forth from picture to text.
Too bad you didn't tale a picture of the patch on the deflated tube so
you could see whether it had bulged in the process.
Also, you didn't test how easily a patch can be pulled off right after
you got through subjecting it to your roller. As I mentioned, the
REMA man was aghast at the ease with which this removal was made.
Two things are different with your patches from the ones I used and
ones I repaired. You used a cheese grater device instead of 100 grit
belt sander abrasive and your tire had slime in it, liquids being 100x
more viscous than air. My patches cannot be removed without heat,
and, if the hole is large, as with my friends tire today, patch lift
is highly likely. These are leaky patches that cease to leak but for
a tiny bubble per second when inflated outside of a tire.
The cheese grater may be what makes removal without heat possible and
the slime most likely prevents patch lift-off. As I mentioned. I have
filled leaky tubulars with water, one of which was ridden daily for a
week, my nephew being to lazy to change the tire, the other went about
100 miles and failed for a casing rupture.
From my experience, I am doubtful that your test shows that fresh
patches don't lift and that well installed and cured patches defy room
temperature removal because there is existence proof of both of these
effect. As I said, my friend experienced patch lift on an on-the-road
patch on our ride today.
Jobst Brandt
john
Dear Carl
I have no doubt that results you have displayed & have written is
valid.
However, I have also had all the things happen that Jobst has
mentioned, when patching a tube in the 'wild'. I do a much better job
patching tubes at home, especially if they have Slime in them. I have
learned these things to make field patches more reliable:
1.) Put tube on knee @ the most radiuses area.
2.) Carefully draw an 'X' centered on the puncture, w/ a pen. (I have
no idea how anyone else centers a patch on the hole, w/ o these
lines. I know I can't)
3.) Sand an area larger than the patch.
4.) Use a clean rag or paper towel to wipe away any Slime that appears
or other debris.
5.) Apply the glue carefully to keep it @ the minimum thickness
possible. (I use a little thin plastic strip ~ 1/2" wide)
6.) Allow the glue to cure for at least 5 minutes.
7.) Pump the tube to > its working diameter.
8.) Apply patch before the tube can loose all its air. (The exact
diameter of the tube doesn't matter, any amount > deflated helps)
9.) Take the blunt end of the Bic pen used to make the 'X' & rub the
hell out of the patch.
10.) Apply talc powder (I know what Jobst says about powder. I figure
that it can't hurt & it may help) to the area of the patch. (The
powder comes from the Zip Loc bag that held the 1st tube that was used
for the 1st flat)
I sincerely believe that if I do all the above my field patches will
hold.
I also tell anyone riding w/ me to go on w/o me due to the time it
takes to follow this procedure. If I get 2 flats on 1 ride, I head for
home, figuring I'm jinxed or I have some other problem w/ tires or
tubes or wheels.
Regards, John
landotter
> In a current thread, the topic has wandered off to Rema patches,
> whether they can be peeled off, and what happens if you ride off on a
> freshly glued patch.
>
Not a damn thing. I learned to ride on grandaddy's folder in the mid
70s. I also learned how to patch a flat on the same bike. My momma's
dad was a cheap bastard, and I've certainly inherited the streak--both
tubes had around twenty Rema patches, and didn't leak a bit.
I've been riding on freshly glued Remas since I started cycling. Never
had one fail catastrophically, just a leak or two, cuz I was sloppy
while patching.
Tubes are so dang easy to patch, and though they are cheap, at around
a fiver, two minutes to save a fiver ain't too bad of an investment.
Tim McNamara
"john" <jdr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have
> learned these things to make field patches more reliable:
>
> 1.) Put tube on knee @ the most radiuses area.
> 2.) Carefully draw an 'X' centered on the puncture, w/ a pen. (I have
> no idea how anyone else centers a patch on the hole, w/ o these
> lines. I know I can't)
Spread the glue on the tube. Pump up the tube a bit. The escaping air
will cause a small whitish mark at the hole from bubbling through the
glue, which will show you where to center it when the glue is try.
> 3.) Sand an area larger than the patch.
> 4.) Use a clean rag or paper towel to wipe away any Slime that appears
> or other debris.
> 5.) Apply the glue carefully to keep it @ the minimum thickness
> possible. (I use a little thin plastic strip ~ 1/2" wide)
> 6.) Allow the glue to cure for at least 5 minutes.
A thin layer is all that is necessary and IME five minutes is plenty
adequate.
> 7.) Pump the tube to > its working diameter.
> 8.) Apply patch before the tube can loose all its air. (The exact
> diameter of the tube doesn't matter, any amount > deflated helps)
> 9.) Take the blunt end of the Bic pen used to make the 'X' & rub the
> hell out of the patch.
I just "burnish" the patch without reinflating the tube wrapping the
tube over a frame tube or my pump. At home I sandwich the tube between
two 1/4" pieces of wood and clamp them with a spring clamp for a while.
That seems to result in good adhesion. Not so practical on the road, of
course, but as a general rule on the road I just use my replacement tube
and patch when I get home. Fortunately we don't have goatheads here-
broken glass and bits of auto tire casing wire seem to be the main
culprits.
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
>My patches cannot be removed without heat,
[snip]
Dear Jobst,
Please cut out a couple of your trusty patches, slip them in an
envelope, and mail them to me:
Carl Fogel
309 Grace
Pueblo, CO 81004
I'll post the results, whatever they turn out to be.
Either RBT will be impressed with the adhesive qualities of Jobst "The
Patch" Brandt's technique . . .
http://i13.tinypic.com/2mhsqza.jpg
Or Carl "The Thumbnail" Fogel will strike terror into the hearts of
innocent bicyclists . . .
http://i19.tinypic.com/2e52ts0.jpg
I'll wager that your patches will be foes worthy of my dewclaw.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Ben C
[...]
> 1.) Put tube on knee @ the most radiuses area.
> 2.) Carefully draw an 'X' centered on the puncture, w/ a pen. (I have
> no idea how anyone else centers a patch on the hole, w/ o these
> lines. I know I can't)
I wrap the tube around my left forefinger, with the hole directly above
a known point on that finger, and hold it there throughout the process.
Then I use proprioception to remember where the hole is after I've
smeared it with glue.
Try touching a known reference point on your left finger with your right
hand with your eyes closed. Your "sixth sense" (proprioception) will get
you much closer than in the average game of pin the tail on the donkey.
> 3.) Sand an area larger than the patch.
> 4.) Use a clean rag or paper towel to wipe away any Slime that appears
> or other debris.
> 5.) Apply the glue carefully to keep it @ the minimum thickness
> possible. (I use a little thin plastic strip ~ 1/2" wide)
> 6.) Allow the glue to cure for at least 5 minutes.
I tend to blow on it, which is cheating, and I heard isn't the proper
way to do it, but seems to work OK.
r15...@aol.com
> As I said, my friend experienced patch lift on an on-the-road
> patch on our ride today.
What does that mean -- 'patch lift?' Does that mean
one of your patch jobs failed again?
I suppose we will just have to take your word for
it that you fellars sat there and let the glue dry
5-10 mins. before applying the patch.
Somehow you are unable to achieve something
that nobody I know seems to have the slightest
problem with.
Used to be I would ride tubes with 20 or 30
patches on them, and no slow leaks.
I must be some sort of patching genius, eh?
Robert
Tim McNamara
Ben C <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, john <jdr...@yahoo.com> wrote: [...]
> > 1.) Put tube on knee @ the most radiuses area. 2.) Carefully draw
> > an 'X' centered on the puncture, w/ a pen. (I have no idea how
> > anyone else centers a patch on the hole, w/ o these lines. I
> > know I can't)
>
> I wrap the tube around my left forefinger, with the hole directly
> above a known point on that finger, and hold it there throughout the
> process. Then I use proprioception to remember where the hole is
> after I've smeared it with glue.
>
> Try touching a known reference point on your left finger with your
> right hand with your eyes closed. Your "sixth sense" (proprioception)
> will get you much closer than in the average game of pin the tail on
> the donkey.
<topic drift warning>
Proprioception isn't a sixth sense. It's haptic perception which comes
from sensory nerves in the joints and muscles, which in this case is a
perception of the position of your limbs relative to your trunk. Of
course in this case there is also visual control of motor action because
you can look at the glue smear and see its center.
For a little experiment in haptic perception, put a mark on a table top.
Touch it with your finger. Close your eyes, bring your arm back to your
side, and then reach out at touch the mark with your eye closed. You
might not touch the mark exactly, but you'll be close- for most people,
within a centimeter or so. If you move your trunk, however, you'll be
way off. Note that memory is involved here too- a memory system called
"procedural memory." If you wait a few minutes before reaching out and
touching the spot with your eyes closed, your accuracy will go down.
Procedural memory can be retained for the long term with sufficient
repetition (for example, a musician learning to play a scale will repeat
it thousands of times while learning it, and will periodically practice
the scale to refresh memory and ensure retention).
We learn nonverbal tasks through motor repetition. We learn how it
feels to properly abrade the surface of the tube and how the prepared
tube should look, to locate the hole, to spread the glue in a circle of
approximately the diameter of the patch centered on the hole, etc. We
can tell by feel if there is too much glue or too little. We can tell
by visual cues and tactile cues when the glue is dry enough. Etc. It
is a particularly human ability (although perhaps not exclusively human)
that we can also enhance learning tasks like this with remembered verbal
instructions, which means we can master the process with relatively few
repetitions.
Bill Sornson
> <topic drift warning>
OK, that does it. I'm making a complete tube out of Rema patch material so
I'll never flat again.
Bill "black box analogy" S.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tim,
Myth and lore!
Next you'll be saying that I don't have to look at the keys when I
type nt ewokt ri tiy~
Oops, shifted left . . .
:)
Cheers,
Vst; Gphr;
Paul Kopit
>2.) Carefully draw an 'X' centered on the puncture, w/ a pen. (I have
>no idea how anyone else centers a patch on the hole, w/ o these
>lines. I know I can't)
Stick a toothpick into the hole and leave it there while you, sand,
apply glue and let glue dry. As you apply the patch, lift the
toothpick flag. I have 15 mm patches I can use and get them centered
over the hole.
data...@yahoo.com
successfully over a long run, consider yourself highly skilled or
fortunate.
slime tube patchs will peel off over time as the fluid works patch
loose from moisture invasion stp.
quality superglue works best following gravity drainage and surgical
surface prep.
buying specialized tubes with Conti TT/trek and panaracer messenger
works much better.
G.T.
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:45f23339$0$14132$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> Carl Fogel writes:
>
> From my experience, I am doubtful that your test shows that fresh
> patches don't lift and that well installed and cured patches defy room
> temperature removal because there is existence proof of both of these
> effect. As I said, my friend experienced patch lift on an on-the-road
> patch on our ride today.
>
I use Remas and sandpaper, no roller. Two weeks ago I had my first
experience with patch lift. I had patched a snakebit tube, installed it 15
minutes later, rode it, and the next day the tire was flat. I took the tube
out but couldn't find the leak until I submerged it in water. It was only
then that I noticed a 3-4 mm dia bulge in the middle of the patch, and tiny
amounts of bubbles coming up from one spot at the edge of the patch. This
was with 95 psi 700c tubes.
I have never had patch lift on lower pressure mtn bike tires so my habit has
been to patch and ride with the newly patched tire.
Greg