MA2 vs. Open Pro
cycledog
road bike. I am considering on getting a pair of Open Pro wheels w/ the
same hubs. I ride 30 miles a day, hard and fast, and on Saturday club
rides between 50 and 60 miles. Am I doing a better upgrade or am I just
wasting 250 bucks for no real improvment?
--
Earn the burn...Reap the gain!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dr AJ Clune
: I currently have a set of Mavic MA2 36 spoke w/ Ultegra hubs on my
: road bike. I am considering on getting a pair of Open Pro wheels w/ the
: same hubs. I ride 30 miles a day, hard and fast, and on Saturday club
: rides between 50 and 60 miles. Am I doing a better upgrade or am I just
: wasting 250 bucks for no real improvment?
You're wasting your money for no real improvement.
Wait until your MA2s are worn out and then replace them with some
Open Pros (nice rims, I use them, just they won't make you go any
faster than MA2s).
Alternativly, look at getting some areo rims. But then you'd probably
need a new hubs (since 36 spokes is too many with a deep section rim)
and new spokes and would end up getting two totally new rims. Much
more money. But you might notice some slight improvement in flat speed.
Arthur
--
Dr. A. Clune, Networks and Nonlinear Dynamics Laboratory,
Dept. Of Mathematics, University of York, UK.
http://biber.york.ac.uk/~arthur +44 (0)1904 433088
Jobst Brandt
> I currently have a set of Mavic MA2 36 spoke w/ Ultegra hubs on my
> road bike. I am considering on getting a pair of Open Pro wheels w/
> the same hubs. I ride 30 miles a day, hard and fast, and on Saturday
> club rides between 50 and 60 miles. Am I doing a better upgrade or
> am I just wasting 250 bucks for no real improvment?
Exactly what is it that these new wheels are supposed to do better
than the ones you have? If you use the same tires, then the wheel
frontal area will remain unchanged, the rims you have are
aerodynamically indistinguishable from the ones you are considering
while only the finish and appearance will be different. I think you
are just wasting $250. You already have the best and most durable rim
on the market, but is it fashionable...
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Ron Cooley
going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
Ron
Jobst Brandt
> What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section rims
> going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
> those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
I bougth a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mailorder, that ougth to last
for a while.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Roger Musson
>What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section rims
>going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
>those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
http://www.mavic.com/eng/prod/fiche/ma3.htm
A miserable replacement.
Kevin Yurica
Just a thought...
I recently replaced my Reflex/Ultegra wheels with an Open Pro/Dura Ace
set. This turned out to be an excellent upgrade. The DA rear hub is a
lot lighter and the whole bike seems better for it.
-Kevin
//
cycledog wrote:
>
> I currently have a set of Mavic MA2 36 spoke w/ Ultegra hubs on my
> road bike. I am considering on getting a pair of Open Pro wheels w/ the
> same hubs. I ride 30 miles a day, hard and fast, and on Saturday club
> rides between 50 and 60 miles. Am I doing a better upgrade or am I just
> wasting 250 bucks for no real improvment?
>
Joshua_Putnam
>Ron Cooley writes:
>> What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section rims
>> going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
>> those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
>I bougth a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mailorder, that ougth to last
>for a while.
I believe Alesa still makes a very similar rim, though I haven't
seen this year's catalog. Unfortunately they have lousy
distribution in the U.S.
Araya also makes a rim nearly identical to the MA-2, but again
they have lousy distribution in the U.S.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh/
David Cásseres
>In <7tlkh4$d2b$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com> jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>
>>Ron Cooley writes:
>
>>> What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section rims
>>> going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
>>> those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
>
>>I bougth a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mailorder, that ougth to last
>>for a while.
>
>I believe Alesa still makes a very similar rim, though I haven't
>seen this year's catalog. Unfortunately they have lousy
>distribution in the U.S.
>
>Araya also makes a rim nearly identical to the MA-2, but again
>they have lousy distribution in the U.S.
So, is the MA2 really out of production? The last time we heard about
this -- several months or a year ago -- it turned out not to be true. Can
anyone verify this?
--
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Ed Chait
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:7tlkh4$d2b$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com...
> Ron Cooley writes:
>
> > What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section rims
> > going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
> > those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute?
>
> I bougth a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mailorder, that ougth to last
> for a while.
>
I'm not familiar with them, but would the Sun CR-18 be a good substitute?
Ed Chait
Nick Payne
(http://www.mavic.com/eng/prod/fiche/ma3.htm). At least from the rim profile
it looks like it will be easier to get tyres onto than the MA2. I have some
Vredestein tyres at the moment which fit on CXP33 rims without problem, but
are almost impossible to fit on MA2 rims, and my wife now refuses to use MA2
rims on her commuting bike because of the difficulty of getting the tyre off
to fix punctures.
Nick
cycledog
Bike also still sell them. They are good rims, I just thought since I
will be doing some serious road racing next year the Mavic Open Pro
would be the better rim to race on. ??????
Jobst Brandt
> I recently replaced my Reflex/Ultegra wheels with an Open Pro/Dura Ace
> set. This turned out to be an excellent upgrade. The DA rear hub is a
> lot lighter and the whole bike seems better for it.
If you can feel that difference, there are great possibilities for you
as a vehicle tester. How many grams difference was the weight of the
wheel and how was this felt? Maybe you meant you could see the $$$
difference in your expenses.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jobst Brandt
> So, is the MA2 really out of production? The last time we heard
> about this -- several months or a year ago -- it turned out not to
> be true. Can anyone verify this?
I heard it first hand from the chief Mavic engineer at InterBike and
the MA-2 vanished from their web site to be replaced by the MA-3, as
you see. I just bought a dozen MA-2 rims for my use for that reason.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Tony Zanussi
>
>Ed Chait
Ed, the Sun CR18 is 22.5mm wide while the MA2 is 20.5mm wide. The CR18 is also
75 gr heavier at 535gr compared to the MA2's 460gr. Basically the CR18 is a
great rim for loaded touring, heavier riders, and/or tandem use. The MA2 also
can handle these duties, but the wider rim of the CR18 is a bit better if you
want to run 700CX35 tires. I think it is easier on the tire sidewalls. They
both have parallel braking surfaces. Mavic recommends tires 19-25mm for use on
the MA2, although I know some who go up to 700CX32. I would say rim width
choice should be made with tires and frame clearance in mind.
Tony Zanussi of Kailua, Oahu
<FulM...@aol.com>
Vintage lightweight enthusiast, Campagnolo driven, w/ some MTB blood
See my Legnano at: (www.cyclesdeoro.com/Classc_Home.htm)
Jim Johnson
) writes:
>What are those of us who love simple,
>durable, polished box-section rims going
>to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is
>discontinued? Especially those with a
>bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is
>there a substitute?
does anyone know anything about 2 models of rims that ambrosio
makes (the gentleman and the super elite) that sound similar to the
MA2's? not sure of their weights but their description in the ital tecno
flier sounds a lot like an MA2.
jim johnson
Qui si parla Campagnolo
wasting 250 bucks for no real improvment? >>
If the wheels are working-keep 'em-
If ya want lighter-look at Campag Montreals-very nice, lighter rim-
peter
Qui si parla Campagnolo
going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued? Especially
those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a substitute? >>
MA-3 from Mavic or Campag Montreals-
Both come in 32 AND 36-
36 hole rims aren't being discontinued-more 36 hole rims are made/sold
worldwide than 28-
peter
Qui si parla Campagnolo
yes-gone-replaced by a non-welded seam, single eyelet version of the Open
pro-called the MA-3-
peter
Qui si parla Campagnolo
will be doing some serious road racing next year the Mavic Open Pro
would be the better rim to race on. ?????? >>
Montreals-VERY nice rims-about $60-
peter
Tom Kunich
One thing that I've always wondered about -- why do new wheels always
ride faster than older wheels. I keep them true, but over time a hop
will always work its way onto the rim. Since older wheels of mine always
coast slower (tested that many times) I wonder if that hop doesn't
absorb a heck of a lot more energy than you'd think.
JAVAEYE
I have the "older" Montreals on my Austro-Daimler and they are quite nice
and were a good value. They were slated to be replaced this year by a new
Montreal that was similar to the Mavic Open Pro but there were production
delays last I heard. If you like the old Montreal, it may be wise to buy up a
few.
Brian Lafferty
Harry Moore
Jobst Brandt wrote in message <7tl3e5$g1p$3...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>...
>anonymous writes:
>...
>I think you
>are just wasting $250. You already have the best and most durable rim
>on the market, but is it fashionable...
It's an unfair world. Rarely does being best have anything to do with being
first, except when it's marketing.
Harry Moore
Jobst Brandt
> Montreals-VERY nice rims-about $60-
MA-2 at www.bikeusa.com is about $23. Nice jump in price but then who
cares, we're rich. This is nothing compared to boutique wheels by Rolf
and the rest.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Montreal that was similar to the Mavic Open Pro but there were production
delays last I heard. >>
'New' Montreal came out in 1999 and is continued in yr2000-VERY similar to the
rim on Nucleon/Electron. w/o offset holes-and silver only-Moskva ia no mo'-too
bad-
peter
James Thomson
>does anyone know anything about 2 models of rims that
>ambrosio makes (the gentleman and the super elite) that
>sound similar to the MA2's? not sure of their weights but their
>description in the ital tecno flier sounds a lot like an MA2.
I had a pair of wheels built with Ambrosio Super Elite rims on a bike
I rode around Australia and New Zealand. They were almost identical to
MA2's in construction, profile, and weight, and available with 32 or
36 holes. I believe there was also a single eyelet version, and an
anodised version (denoted 'Durex') much like the MA40. I can't comment
on durability as the bike was eventually stolen, but they stood a lot
of punishment in the 6 months or so I used them.
James Thomson
Stan Cox
eyelets started going in the rear one this spring. I suspected at the
time that my wheelbuilder friend had built them too tight(He was at that
time recovering from a very very bad crash on the track and his memory
was shot. I think he built everything too tight for a couple of months.
But he's better now) and I think this is what caused the eyelets to go.
I would willingly buy another pair. BTW mine were 32's and I'm roughly
195 pounds 88kg.
Stan
alex wetmore
news:eZXSrHeE$GA.326@cpmsnbbsa02...
> I'm not familiar with them, but would the Sun CR-18 be a good substitute?
The CR18 is a much different rim. It is wider, heavier and stronger.
Suitable for touring bikes and tandems, but not really what you want on your
lightweight road bike.
I thought Sun made a rim similar to the MA-2, but when looking through my
Quality catalog I didn't see anything with a similar profile.
alex
David Cásseres
<elizab...@home.com> wrote:
It's that Special Physics that seems to prevail in your own special universe.
Jobst Brandt
> I rode a pair of Super elite durex year round for 5 years until the
> eyelets started going in the rear one this spring. I suspected at
> the time that my wheelbuilder friend had built them too tight(He was
> at that time recovering from a very very bad crash on the track and
> his memory was shot. I think he built everything too tight for a
> couple of months. But he's better now) and I think this is what
> caused the eyelets to go. I would willingly buy another pair. BTW
> mine were 32's and I'm roughly 195 pounds 88kg.
If the rim cannot hold the tension in the spoke sockets, it's a bum
rim. That is to say, the rim should be able to support spoke tension
that will not collapse the rim in compression. If it cant do that,
then it is poorly designed because it is too strong in hoop strength
compared to its spoke attachment points. That is one of the main
problem with single wall spoke support and why better rims have (or
had) spoke sockets that loaded inner and outer walls of the rim.
Boutique rims don't play by these rules, being only fashion. Those
who buy this stuff are doing themselves a disservice because the
sturdy designs are discontinued in the race for ever more exotic
appearing rims. The demise of the Mavic MA-2 is a perfect example.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Eric Salathe
> I thought Sun made a rim similar to the MA-2, but when looking through my
> Quality catalog I didn't see anything with a similar profile.
That was the M13ii; long gone. Single eyelets and a little more sidewall
than an MA2 -- never used one, but seemed the perfect PacNW rim for
longevity in the rain. Sun is terrible at keeping rim models around for
more that a couple seasons. I expect the CR18 to be phased out for 2001.
But I have a stash of the original CRT16 Chinooks bought at $8 that'll
keep that tandem going for years.
Eric Salathe
Seattle
Tony Zanussi
>Suitable for touring bikes and tandems, but not really what you want on your
>lightweight road bike.
Well, they are great if you are a Clydesdale like me. According to QBP catalog
the CR18 is 484gr, and we know an MA2 is 460gr, but another source has the CR18
at 535gr. That sounds more like it to me. I was surprised to find out the CR18
is also made in 26", 24" and 20" sizes. I really am impressed with Sun rims.
>I thought Sun made a rim similar to the MA-2, but when looking through my
>Quality catalog I didn't see anything with a similar profile.
They have the ME-13, which looks almost identical if I remember correctly. The
Sun website is down so I had no luck.
alex wetmore
news:19991011142935...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> >The CR18 is a much different rim. It is wider, heavier and stronger.
> >Suitable for touring bikes and tandems, but not really what you want on
your
> >lightweight road bike.
>
> Well, they are great if you are a Clydesdale like me. According to QBP
catalog
> the CR18 is 484gr, and we know an MA2 is 460gr, but another source has the
CR18
> at 535gr. That sounds more like it to me. I was surprised to find out the
CR18
> is also made in 26", 24" and 20" sizes. I really am impressed with Sun
rims.
I agree. I like Sun rims for most things, but do wish that they made
something like the MA-2 (ie, a bit narrower and lighter). I have CR18s and
Rhynos on most of my bikes, and a tandem with 20" wheels built around the no
longer available Sun Chinook.
> >I thought Sun made a rim similar to the MA-2, but when looking through my
> >Quality catalog I didn't see anything with a similar profile.
>
> They have the ME-13, which looks almost identical if I remember correctly.
The
> Sun website is down so I had no luck.
Someone else reported that this rim is no longer made. It also had single
eyelets.
alex
rjk3
Unless they too are discontinuing this simple technology in favor of
marketing....
In article <7tm1o8$26s$4...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>,
Ed Chait
I just built up a set of wheels with Araya CTL 385 rims.
They're narrower than MA2's, but otherwise seem like a similar design. May
be a good alternative.
I don't know if they're currently in production, but Araya has several road
models, I haven't been able to locate their website.
Ed Chait
Stan Cox
Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Stan Cox writes:
>
> > I rode a pair of Super elite durex year round for 5 years until the
<snip>
>
> If the rim cannot hold the tension in the spoke sockets, it's a bum
> rim. That is to say, the rim should be able to support spoke tension
> that will not collapse the rim in compression.
Fair point Jobst. I would still buy another pair as the last ones did me
for over 20000 miles (boy that sounds like a lot :) )
>
> Boutique rims don't play by these rules, being only fashion. Those
> who buy this stuff are doing themselves a disservice because the
> sturdy designs are discontinued in the race for ever more exotic
> appearing rims. The demise of the Mavic MA-2 is a perfect example.
More fool people for paying over the odds for fancy wheelsets. Ive just
bought a new set of MA-2 myself and the only downside is that I'd
forgotten how hard is is to ge my 23mm tyres on & off them :)
Stan
Dr AJ Clune
: More fool people for paying over the odds for fancy wheelsets. Ive just
: bought a new set of MA-2 myself and the only downside is that I'd
: forgotten how hard is is to ge my 23mm tyres on & off them :)
For me, this one factor is enough to make me prefer Open Pros.
I've got MA2s (36 spoke) on the fixed, and getting the tires on and off
is a real labour (I've tried several different tires - the ones I have
one currently aren't bad in that I can remove them on my own with only
three tire levers. I did have one set of tires that needed four levers
and three hands to get off and at least on lever to get the last bit
back on)
I've not needed more than one lever to get tires of Open Pros
(mostly various Vredistin 23mms) and have never used levers to
get them back on.
Arthur
--
Dr. A. Clune, Networks and Nonlinear Dynamics Laboratory,
Dept. Of Mathematics, University of York, UK.
http://biber.york.ac.uk/~arthur +44 (0)1904 433088
cycledog
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> Stan Cox writes:
>
> > I rode a pair of Super elite durex year round for 5 years until the
> > the time that my wheelbuilder friend had built them too tight(He was
> > at that time recovering from a very very bad crash on the track and
> > his memory was shot. I think he built everything too tight for a
> > couple of months. But he's better now) and I think this is what
> > caused the eyelets to go. I would willingly buy another pair. BTW
> > mine were 32's and I'm roughly 195 pounds 88kg.
>
> rim. That is to say, the rim should be able to support spoke tension
> then it is poorly designed because it is too strong in hoop strength
> compared to its spoke attachment points. That is one of the main
> problem with single wall spoke support and why better rims have (or
> had) spoke sockets that loaded inner and outer walls of the rim.
>
> who buy this stuff are doing themselves a disservice because the
> sturdy designs are discontinued in the race for ever more exotic
> appearing rims. The demise of the Mavic MA-2 is a perfect example.
>
>
--
If the Mavic MA-2 is such the "perfect rim", knocking off the Mavic
Open Pro series....why are there not more folks riding the MA-2?? It
seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I am the
only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look at my
wheels as cheap and un-professional.Jobst....... what do you say?
Earn the burn...Reap the gain!
alex wetmore
news:7tvobq$ps$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> If the Mavic MA-2 is such the "perfect rim", knocking off the Mavic
> Open Pro series....why are there not more folks riding the MA-2?? It
> seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I am the
> only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look at my
> wheels as cheap and un-professional.Jobst....... what do you say?
The MA-2 doesn't have the frills of most modern rims (machined sidewalls,
HA, etc), which makes it much cheaper (half the price of most other rims).
Many bike shops don't even stock the thing.
In a world where having unnecessary features and fancy colors on bike parts
is required to sell them the MA-2 isn't going to fare very well. Mavic
doesn't have strings of letters to put after the name (its not the MA-2 SUP
for instance), and doesn't charge the premium price which would make
cyclists think that it is a high quality item. They'd probably sell more
just by raising the price and making up random letters to stick on the end
of the model name.
Sun seems to be following the same trends. If you look at their current
website (http://www.sunrims.com) you can see that the CR18, Rhyno Lite, and
their other high quality, no frills rims are getting a bunch of new
"features", come in a lot of silly colors, and the price is probably
doubling.
alex
Jobst Brandt
> If the Mavic MA-2 is such the "perfect rim", knocking off the Mavic
> Open Pro series....why are there not more folks riding the MA-2?? It
> seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I am
> the only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look
> at my wheels as cheap and un-professional. Jobst....... what do you
> say? Earn the burn...Reap the gain!
You can ask the same about all colored tires, 18-spoke wheels, 9-speed
gear clusters, fiber frames and bicycles without seat tubes, to name a
few. Bicycling is fashion and nothing goes farther out of fashion
than something that has by its merit been around for a long time,
especially if its producer doesn't promote it. Each of these useless
features has increased the price of rims substantially: Anodizing,
welded joints, and machining the sides.
You might ask, why do people wear enormously baggy pants these days?
Why do basketball players wear white bike shorts under their baggy
outer pants. Why do they wear two sets of pants in the first place.
Why do women runners wear G-string high cut shorts and men have floppy
shorts?
You didn't see any reason given for the demise of the MA-2 except that
it didn't sell well to the Gee-Whiz $$ crowd.
You want logic, make it yourself.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Eric Salathe
> It seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I
> am the only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders
> look at my wheels as cheap and un-professional.
So your riding partners expect you to make money cycling? You know, I
really feel bad for all those aspiring professionals who hate cycling
yet persist even though they will never make money at it riding only on
Saturday. I ride recreationally, and I'm seldom serious.
It may help if you beat them up all the hills. I tell people that I
remove the rack and fenders when I ride with fast groups -- the
implication is that they are not. That usually shuts them up....
Eric Salathe
Seattle
ami...@my-deja.com
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> Ron Cooley writes:
>
> > What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished box-section
rims
> > going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is discontinued?
Especially
> > those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on our bikes? Is there a
substitute?
>
last
> for a while.
>
I also like the box section look of the MA2, but I heard it had the
same problem with cracking around the eyelets many Reflex (clincher)
users (incl myself) experienced, which is unfortunate since it is
supposed to be the choice for durability. I would opt for NOS MA40's
(these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2 is a poorly executed
replacement) if I could find them. The Open Pros are fine, but I would
not spend money to replace them if they have not failed (some claim
only the anodized versions are prone to fail). There are lots of other
36 hole box section rims available, many NOS, so you shoud be fine for
years to come.
b...@my-deja.com
Dr AJ Clune <aj...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> Stan Cox <stan...@bton.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> : More fool people for paying over the odds for fancy wheelsets. Ive
just
> : bought a new set of MA-2 myself and the only downside is that I'd
> : forgotten how hard is is to ge my 23mm tyres on & off them :)
>
> For me, this one factor is enough to make me prefer Open Pros.
>
> I've got MA2s (36 spoke) on the fixed, and getting the tires on and
off
> is a real labour (I've tried several different tires - the ones I
have
> one currently aren't bad in that I can remove them on my own with only
> three tire levers. I did have one set of tires that needed four levers
> and three hands to get off and at least on lever to get the last bit
> back on)
>
> I've not needed more than one lever to get tires of Open Pros
> (mostly various Vredistin 23mms) and have never used levers to
> get them back on.
>
> Arthur
lever (see www.thethirdhand.com for a picture). Its a plastic lever
that pulls the tire onto the rim. I've used it on all types of tires
and rims and have NEVER EVER had a problem. Definitely worth $10.
Brewster
ami...@my-deja.com
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> David Cásseres writes:
>
> > So, is the MA2 really out of production? The last time we heard
> > about this -- several months or a year ago -- it turned out not to
> > be true. Can anyone verify this?
>
> I heard it first hand from the chief Mavic engineer at InterBike and
> the MA-2 vanished from their web site to be replaced by the MA-3, as
> you see. I just bought a dozen MA-2 rims for my use for that reason.
>
> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
>
because many users found them to be defective. Hopefully you won't have
that problem.
JAVAEYE
>same problem with cracking around the eyelets many Reflex (clincher)
>users (incl myself) experienced,
I used nothing but MA2s for years and have one wheel set with over 25,000
miles. Never had a rim failure of any kind with an MA2.
Brian Lafferty
Jobst Brandt
>> I heard it first hand from the chief Mavic engineer at InterBike
>> and the MA-2 vanished from their web site to be replaced by the
>> MA-3, as you see. I just bought a dozen MA-2 rims for my use for
>> that reason.
> Quick thinking, maybe too quick. They might've been discontinued
> because many users found them to be defective. Hopefully you won't
> have that problem.
I've been riding MA-2 rims for more than 20 years with no problems.
What do you foresee that might occur? I am capable of recognizing a
functional manufacturing flaw and I haven't seen any.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jobst Brandt
>>> What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished
>>> box-section rims going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is
>>> discontinued? Especially those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on
>>> our bikes? Is there a substitute?
>> I bought a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mail-order, that ought
>> to last for a while.
> I also like the box section look of the MA2, but I heard it had the
> same problem with cracking around the eyelets many Reflex (clincher)
> users (incl myself) experienced, which is unfortunate since it is
> supposed to be the choice for durability.
I think you got that backwards. When the MA-2 was anodized and called
the MA-40, it began to crack around the eyelets and the entire rim in
the middle of the side wall.
> I would opt for NOS MA40's (these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2
> is a poorly executed replacement) if I could find them. The Open
> Pros are fine, but I would not spend money to replace them if they
> have not failed (some claim only the anodized versions are prone to
> fail). There are lots of other 36 hole box section rims available,
> many NOS, so you should be fine for years to come.
The MA-2 it an older rim than the MA-40, although both rims were made
from the same extrusion and were, other than the finish, identical.
The MA-2 was formerly the Super Champion Gentleman, long before
anodizing became the rage and through which cracked rims became a
common wheel failure.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
mark weaver
in the latest issue of BRAIN (bicycle retailer and industry news),
there's an article about a class action suit against mavic due to ma2
rims. apparently the suit is being brought not on behalf of ma2 riders,
but on behalf of their families, workmates and riding pals. according to
Batson D. Belfry, lawyer for the plaintiffs, frequent ma2 use, especially
for longer periods, seems to result in cantankerousness, irritability,
and pompous foolishness.
the article quoted one of the plaintiffs, zelda blundt, as follows:
"before he started this ma2 thing, my son yapst was a nice young man. he
was handsome, thoughtful, interesting to talk to, everything you could
want. over the years he's just turned into a pompous grandstanding fool.
the worst part is that i got into mtb-ing, but the ma2 disease has
totally prevented him from seeing how sweet it is to rip it up in the
dirt, and bust fat monkey air over a double jump. we don't want to drive
Mavic out of business, we just want compensation for the part of our
lives that's been lost to this insidious illness"
remember, you read it here first.
--
mark weaver
www.geocities.com/~velosapiens
(www.geocities.com/pipeline/3195)
mtb rants, reviews and rides
Joshua_Putnam
>I also like the box section look of the MA2, but I heard it had the
>same problem with cracking around the eyelets many Reflex (clincher)
>users (incl myself) experienced, which is unfortunate since it is
>supposed to be the choice for durability. I would opt for NOS MA40's
>(these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2 is a poorly executed
>replacement)
You have that backwards. The MA-2 predates the MA-40. The MA-40
is just a pimped-up MA-2, same extrusion but with a fashionable
brittle coating to impede braking.
I switched to 26" wheels a few years back, but before that I
could easily get over 20,000 miles out of an MA-2 before its
brake tracks wore thin, never had one crack around the eyelets.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh/
Matthew J. Kirsten
:>anonymous had scribed...
:Jobst Brandt wrote replied...
:
:I think you got that backwards. When the MA-2 was anodized and called
:the MA-40, it began to crack around the eyelets and the entire rim in
:the middle of the side wall.
:
:> I would opt for NOS MA40's (these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2
:> is a poorly executed replacement) if I could find them. The Open
:> Pros are fine, but I would not spend money to replace them if they
:> have not failed (some claim only the anodized versions are prone to
:> fail). There are lots of other 36 hole box section rims available,
:> many NOS, so you should be fine for years to come.
:
:The MA-2 it an older rim than the MA-40, although both rims were made
:from the same extrusion and were, other than the finish, identical.
:The MA-2 was formerly the Super Champion Gentleman, long before
:anodizing became the rage and through which cracked rims became a
:common wheel failure.
:
Just a lurker checking in, perhaps anonymous is actually confusing the
Mavic G40 with the MA40. Different animals. FWIW I'm still on a pair of
Mavic E2's, circa 1983. I keep wondering if they are they are ever going
to die.
Best Regards,
-Matthew
Fiamme Red
only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look at my
wheels as cheap and un-professional. >>
it's their problem not yours! MA2s are well made. so they weigh more than
other rims! great breaking surface, easy to get tires on an off, and they last
a long time. i matched mine with the avocet tires, fastgrip 28's.
-tom
Mike DeMicco
Brandt) wrote:
>anonymous writes:
>
>> If the Mavic MA-2 is such the "perfect rim", knocking off the Mavic
>> Open Pro series....why are there not more folks riding the MA-2?? It
>> seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I am
>> the only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look
>> at my wheels as cheap and un-professional. Jobst....... what do you
>> say? Earn the burn...Reap the gain!
>
>You can ask the same about all colored tires, 18-spoke wheels, 9-speed
>gear clusters, fiber frames and bicycles without seat tubes, to name a
>few. Bicycling is fashion and nothing goes farther out of fashion
>than something that has by its merit been around for a long time,
>especially if its producer doesn't promote it. Each of these useless
>features has increased the price of rims substantially: Anodizing,
>welded joints, and machining the sides.
>
>You might ask, why do people wear enormously baggy pants these days?
>Why do basketball players wear white bike shorts under their baggy
>outer pants. Why do they wear two sets of pants in the first place.
>Why do women runners wear G-string high cut shorts and men have floppy
>shorts?
>
>You didn't see any reason given for the demise of the MA-2 except that
>it didn't sell well to the Gee-Whiz $$ crowd.
>
>You want logic, make it yourself.
>
>Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
The MA-2 is a nice, reliable, inexpensive rim, to be sure. However, it is
heavier and wider than other racing rims, and a non-aero design. You can
thank Chester Kyle for some responsibility in its demise, as he has
preached the virtues of light, aero rims. Also, most of us are using 23 mm
wide tires. What's the advantage of a wider (and as a result heavier) rim
when running this sized tire?
--
Mike DeMicco <dem...@home.com>
Mary Sutherland
about 410-420 advertised weight. Great rims but really hard to find
now-a-days. I would take those anyday over the new Mavic open scuppers,
even though I'm using a pair right now. If anyone happens to have a set of
Module Es in 700, please let me know. Charles O'toole
Fiamme Red <fiam...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19991012215437...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
> << I am the
> only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look at my
> wheels as cheap and un-professional. >>
>
Tony Zanussi
MA-2 rims?". He asked me in a bewildered state, "Why on earth would you want
those?" and "Those are not even popular!" Mind you this is the first time I
ever met him, and he sure stuck his foot in his mouth! I left him there with
the stupid look on his face. Nothing worse than a bike shop that thinks we are
all morons or newcomers when we walk in a shop. Unfortunately this is the
typical mentality nowadays, instead of thinking practical everyone seems to
want what costs the most $$$ and looks like it cost the most $$$.
Tony Zanussi of Kailua, Oahu
<FulM...@aol.com>
Vintage lightweight enthusiast, Campagnolo driven, "steel is real!"
See my Legnano: (http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/Legnano_main.htm)
Fiamme Red
think he was any faster than riding on heavier rims. on the flip side of that,
i had a pair of open 4s, and i'm not any faster than riding on my MA2s. we've
been riding every saturday & sunday mornings the past three years.
-tom
Tony Zanussi
Yup, I see a lot of flashy riders on their anodized rimmed titanium time
machines who would be better off spending more time riding their fine machines
than talking about them. Wow, those CR-18's of mine sure are fast compared to
those circus wheels!
Tony Zanussi of Kailua, Oahu
Vintage lightweight enthusiast, Campagnolo driven, "steel is real!"
See my Legnano: http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/Legnano_main.htm
Qui si parla Campagnolo
wheels as cheap and un-professional. >>
They are bozos-MA-2s are great rims that build great wheelsets-your riding
'friends' that are on anodized, yellow spoked, goofy package wheels will
replace them four times before you have to do anything about your MA-2s-try not
to be swayed by marketing quite so much-
peter
Jeffrey L. Bell
>... most of us are using 23 mm wide tires.
Speak for yourself.
I need something reliable for the commute bike that
can run 700Cx28 or wider. I tried to buy an MA-2 the last
time I needed a new rim, but the shop only stocked rims for
twice the price.
-Jeff Bell
Eric Salathe
> The MA-2 is a nice, reliable, inexpensive rim, to be sure. However, it is
> heavier and wider than other racing rims, and a non-aero design.
That's the marketing line Mavic used to get you to pay double for rims.
You need a much deeper section than the rims you're thinking about to
have any aero effect. Most pseudo-aero rims (CXP12) are just heavier
than they need to be.
As for weight, see some actual numbers at
http://www.damonrinard.com/weights.htm
MAKE & MODEL ACTUAL WEIGHTS (g) CLAIMED (g)
Mavic Open Pro 424,424,437,440 420
Mavic MA2 444,451,466,454,481 460
The extrusion die wears as rims are made (ie the hole gets bigger), so
the rims get progressivly heavier until the die is replaced. Rim weights
range up to about 10% over their ideal weight, and the maker is free to
choose anything in that range to suit their marketing goals. Remember
how Apple degraded the IIsi so as not to compete with the more expensive
IIci? So, if the difference between two models is less than 10%, they
weigh the same to within expected error. As if 80 grams (1/10th of a
bottle of water) out of 80,000 total (0.1%) would make much difference
anyway.
As for width, mavic always speced the MA-2 for the same range of tires
as the OpenPro. The difference in width at the bead seat is less than
1mm. (Outside widths are 20.6 for MA-2 and 19.5 for Open Pro, but MA-2
has thicker sidewalls, so the inner difference is less.)
Keith Bontrager has some great comments at
http://www.bontrager.com/rants/ It is interesting to note, however, that
the rims bearing his label break all his rules.
Eric Salathe
Jobst Brandt
<<< If the Mavic MA-2 is such the "perfect rim", knocking off the Mavic
<<< Open Pro series....why are there not more folks riding the MA-2?? It
<<< seems that every organized group ride and road race I attend I am
<<< the only one with the MA-2 wheel set on my bike??? The riders look
<<< at my wheels as cheap and un-professional. Jobst....... what do you
<<< say? Earn the burn...Reap the gain!
<< You can ask the same about all colored tires, 18-spoke wheels, 9-speed
<< gear clusters, fiber frames and bicycles without seat tubes, to name a
<< few. Bicycling is fashion and nothing goes farther out of fashion
<< than something that has by its merit been around for a long time,
<< especially if its producer doesn't promote it. Each of these useless
<< features has increased the price of rims substantially: Anodizing,
<< welded joints, and machining the sides.
<<
<< You might ask, why do people wear enormously baggy pants these days?
<< Why do basketball players wear white bike shorts under their baggy
<< outer pants. Why do they wear two sets of pants in the first place.
<< Why do women runners wear G-string high cut shorts and men have floppy
<< shorts?
<<
<< You didn't see any reason given for the demise of the MA-2 except that
<< it didn't sell well to the Gee-Whiz $$ crowd.
< The MA-2 is a nice, reliable, inexpensive rim, to be sure. However,
< it is heavier and wider than other racing rims, and a non-aero
< design. You can thank Chester Kyle for some responsibility in its
< demise, as he has preached the virtues of light, aero rims. Also,
< most of us are using 23 mm wide tires. What's the advantage of a
< wider (and as a result heavier) rim when running this sized tire?
The MA-2 is a 20mm wide rim and is no heavier than comparable rims
that are still being made. They are certainly lighter than most of
the high cost aero rims that make no aerodynamic difference for the
majority of riders who buy them. I don't believe Kyle had any affect
on this because it is market driven. The mark-up on MA-2 is small and
it's OLD, so it had to go.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com<
Jobst Brandt
> I has a bike shop owner here in Honolulu marvel at my question, "Do
> you carry MA-2 rims?". He asked me in a bewildered state, "Why on
> earth would you want those?" and "Those are not even popular!" Mind
> you this is the first time I ever met him, and he sure stuck his
> foot in his mouth! I left him there with the stupid look on his
> face. Nothing worse than a bike shop that thinks we are all morons
> or newcomers when we walk in a shop. Unfortunately this is the
> typical mentality nowadays, instead of thinking practical everyone
> seems to want what costs the most $$$ and looks like it cost the
> most $$$.
It is that mentality that killed the MA-2 and I think it is also a bit
of what killed Wheelsmith Bike Shop (not Wheelsmith Fabrications Montana).
This is a fashionable sport where imitating the professional "bill board"
racers is the standard of attire and equipment. The sponsors of teams
can sell almost anything to the image hungry public.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Alan Cline
the 700C T217 - in the course of that conversation the demise of the
MA-2 came up. I was assured that several thousand pairs remained in the
warehouse and availability should continue for quite awhile. I wouldn't
be suprised to see the dicounters offering good deals on these either.
The T217 is a different story however - it has been discontinued and
none remain in the warehouse. Get 'em while you can if this is your
rim!!!
Alan Cline
--
Vintage racing bike enthusiast
Frame painter and restorer
Brendan Quirk
> It is that mentality that killed the MA-2 and I think it is also a bit
> of what killed Wheelsmith Bike Shop (not Wheelsmith Fabrications Montana).
I haven't been out to Palo Alto in 3 or so years. The Wheelsmith shop is
gone? Has another nice bike shop taken its place, or does that other
shop on the main drag there through town rule the roost? -Brendan Quirk
Tom Kunich
news:3805C8...@arkansas.net...
>
> I haven't been out to Palo Alto in 3 or so years. The Wheelsmith shop is
> gone? Has another nice bike shop taken its place, or does that other
> shop on the main drag there through town rule the roost? -Brendan Quirk
Before they closed, they moved to another, perfectly nutty location across
the street from one bike shop and just half a mile from another large one.
Nothing has taken their place in Palo Alto. Palo Alto Cycles (name right?)
has remodeled, expanded and gotten quite a bit more profitable without
Wheelsmith to compete with though.
Tony Zanussi
>
>> I has a bike shop owner here in Honolulu marvel at my question, "Do
>> you carry MA-2 rims?". He asked me in a bewildered state, "Why on
>> earth would you want those?" and "Those are not even popular!" Mind
>> you this is the first time I ever met him, and he sure stuck his
>> foot in his mouth! I left him there with the stupid look on his
>> face. Nothing worse than a bike shop that thinks we are all morons
>> or newcomers when we walk in a shop. Unfortunately this is the
>> typical mentality nowadays, instead of thinking practical everyone
>> seems to want what costs the most $$$ and looks like it cost the
>> most $$$.
>
>of what killed Wheelsmith Bike Shop (not Wheelsmith Fabrications Montana).
>racers is the standard of attire and equipment. The sponsors of teams
>can sell almost anything to the image hungry public.
>
>Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
I have just started reading Tales From The Toolbox by Scott Parr, former
professional mechanic for Motorola, and it is obvious that professional riders
could care a less what brand of component or bike they are on, but just want
absolute reliability. I think Americans, compared to Europeans, are by far much
more swayed by advertising and marketing hype, and the US is the testbed not
for whether a piece of equipment works, but whether the marketing strategy
works on us and brings in the big $$$. Also, what looks better! (The latter
statement is my opinion, not out of Mr. parr's book). Mr. Parr states that the
riders usually only get the "special" bikes twice a season or so, such as
titanium, during the spring classics run, namely Paris-Roubaix. Many of their
wheels are made with straight gauge spokes for instance. Good read so far.
Anyone have comments on the book?
Tony Zanussi of Kailua, Oahu
Vintage lightweight enthusiast, Campagnolo driven, "steel is real!"
"Would you like to see more about great old bikes? Check out the Classic
Bicycle Rendezvous: http://www.cyclesdeoro.com/Classc_Home.htm
Mark Atanovich
In article <7u3c3n$mfq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Alan Cline <alan...@netscape.net> writes:
Mark Atanovich
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad
judgement."
Jay Beattie
Jobst Brandt wrote in message <7u05m3$cti$9...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>...
>anonymous writes:
<snip>
>I think you got that backwards. When the MA-2 was anodized and called
>the MA-40, it began to crack around the eyelets and the entire rim in
>the middle of the side wall.
>
>> I would opt for NOS MA40's (these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2
>> is a poorly executed replacement) if I could find them. The Open
>> Pros are fine, but I would not spend money to replace them if they
>> have not failed (some claim only the anodized versions are prone to
>> fail). There are lots of other 36 hole box section rims available,
>> many NOS, so you should be fine for years to come.
>
>The MA-2 it an older rim than the MA-40, although both rims were made
>from the same extrusion and were, other than the finish, identical.
>The MA-2 was formerly the Super Champion Gentleman, long before
>anodizing became the rage and through which cracked rims became a
>common wheel failure.
I have several Gentlemans from around 1981-2 with a gray "satin" finish --
and several MA-2s with the same finish from several years later. Is this
anodizing or some other surface treatment? -- Jay Beattie.
Jobst Brandt
>> It is that mentality that killed the MA-2 and I think it is also a bit
>> of what killed Wheelsmith Bike Shop (not Wheelsmith Fabrications Montana).
> I haven't been out to Palo Alto in 3 or so years. The Wheelsmith
> shop is gone? Has another nice bike shop taken its place, or does
> that other shop on the main drag there through town rule the roost?
Wheelsmith moved from it's downtown location to a former bank building
on El Camino Real, next to the JJ&F Fine Foods Market, before going
out of business. Mike's Bikes has acquired the residue and is having
a grand opening this weekend. It is not the same type of store
although some of the memorabilia that was on display is still there.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
David Cásseres
>Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
>> It is that mentality that killed the MA-2 and I think it is also a bit
>> of what killed Wheelsmith Bike Shop (not Wheelsmith Fabrications Montana).
>
>I haven't been out to Palo Alto in 3 or so years. The Wheelsmith shop is
>gone? Has another nice bike shop taken its place, or does that other
>shop on the main drag there through town rule the roost? -Brendan Quirk
The Wheelsmith site has been taken over by Mike's Bikes. I went in and
bought some brake cables last weekend and as far as I could tell it was a
decent-looking bike shop, still in the process of setting up. The people
I dealt with were pleasant and knowledgeable.
They didn't have the cable housing I wanted, so I went on up El Camino to
Garner's (which must be "that other shop" Brendan mentions) and got the
housing there. It's another pretty nice shop, with a much more limited
selection of bikes but plenty of other stuff, and good prices.
I seriously wonder if there's room for two bike shops that close together,
and Garner's has focused very successfully on the Stanford U. market.
--
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Jobst Brandt
> I have several Gentlemans from around 1981-2 with a gray "satin"
> finish -- and several MA-2s with the same finish from several years
> later. Is this anodizing or some other surface treatment?
If it can be scraped off with a knife it's not anodizing and I don't
mean cutting into the aluminum but a light scrape over the surface
should determine whether it is harder than steel. I am no familiar
with this coating.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
lazy...@my-deja.com
early 80's I was not permitted to use tubular tires by the rules of the USCF
and by the constraints of costs. I became familiar with the better clincher
rims of the day. My rim of choice was the Mavic Module E2, a double-eylet
box-section clincher, the precursor to the MA2. It was available with a
duller, hard silver finish and with a soft polished finish, though this may
have been a running product change rather than two different options. There
was also a cheaper, single-eyelet version called the Module E. I believe it
was some time later that the grey, hard anodized version of the same rim
became available as the G40. In any case the E2's were great rims (as are
the MA2's) and vastly less prone to dents than the Rigida 1320 that I had
used earlier. In any case the Mavic MA2 was the replacement for the Mavic
E2, NOT for the Super Champion Gentleman, which was a competitive (and
softer) product from a different manufacturer. You remember now, right?
Mavic gave us those OR 7's, OR 10's, SSC's... and Super Chamion had the
Record du Monde de l'Heure, Arc en Ciel... Super Champion was eventually
acquired by Wolber, hence the later Wolber Gentleman.
As for the MA2 being older than the MA-40, I think this too is inaccurate.
The G40 was introduced as a slick new version of the E2, and both were kept
in production until being simultaneously replaced by the MA40 and MA2. The
relatively scarce MA replaced the Module E. Great rims all.
Tom
In article <7u05m3$cti$9...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>,
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> anonymous writes:
>
> >>> What are those of us who love simple, durable, polished
> >>> box-section rims going to do, now that the venerable MA-2 is
> >>> discontinued? Especially those with a bunch of 36-hole hubs on
> >>> our bikes? Is there a substitute?
>
> >> I bought a dozen of them from Bicycle USA, mail-order, that ought
> >> to last for a while.
>
> > I also like the box section look of the MA2, but I heard it had the
> > same problem with cracking around the eyelets many Reflex (clincher)
> > users (incl myself) experienced, which is unfortunate since it is
> > supposed to be the choice for durability.
>
> I think you got that backwards. When the MA-2 was anodized and called
> the MA-40, it began to crack around the eyelets and the entire rim in
> the middle of the side wall.
>
> > I would opt for NOS MA40's (these are the `venerable' rims, the MA2
> > is a poorly executed replacement) if I could find them. The Open
> > Pros are fine, but I would not spend money to replace them if they
> > have not failed (some claim only the anodized versions are prone to
> > fail). There are lots of other 36 hole box section rims available,
> > many NOS, so you should be fine for years to come.
>
> The MA-2 it an older rim than the MA-40, although both rims were made
> from the same extrusion and were, other than the finish, identical.
> The MA-2 was formerly the Super Champion Gentleman, long before
> anodizing became the rage and through which cracked rims became a
> common wheel failure.
>
> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Jobst Brandt
> The Wheelsmith site has been taken over by Mike's Bikes. I went in
> and bought some brake cables last weekend and as far as I could tell
> it was a decent-looking bike shop, still in the process of setting
> up. The people I dealt with were pleasant and knowledgeable.
> I seriously wonder if there's room for two bike shops that close
> together, and Garner's has focused very successfully on the Stanford
> U. market.
There are two other bike shops within 200 yards, The Bike Connection
(three doors down) and Cardinal Bike (same ownership), stores that
cater to both ends of the bicycle market from competition to
transportation and rentals. Garner's has the benefit of being older
and having a large stock of parts, some of which are no longer being
made.
Palo Alto Bicycles in downtown Palo Alto is doing better than ever and
never saw Wheelsmith as competition for the reasons I believe had a
lot to do with their failure. It was an elite shop that catered to an
undefined group. Even their advertisement in the yellow pages has a
picture of an expensive antique wheel truing stand under the title
"store, workshop, museum". The museum was excellent but somehow the
atmosphere left the average bicyclists out of the picture. The other
problem, as I see it, was that both downtown, and at the last
location, the repair shop was first in the basement down two flights
of stairs, and then in the attic, up even more stairs (or a hydraulic
elevator that took an age).
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
lazy...@my-deja.com
Those Ambrosios are fine rims. If he actually rode them regularly for 5
years before the rear failed, I'd say that by any practical measure he did
fine. That he didn't do one in sooner on a pothole is good luck. Unless you
don't ride much or are super weak, AND super cautious rims fail. If they
last forever they are too heavy. Ask any F-1 mechanic how they decide where
to shed weight. It's the part that takes longest to fail. Not to say that
ordinary bikes are F-1 racecars, but try to see my point.
To say that the hoop strength is "too high" implies that you can just build a
rim to flex as it rotates and therby relieve stress on the spoke seat. This
is a complex system operating in a harsh environment and any attempts to
model it are just approximations. No finite element vodoo will negate
on-the-road experience at this level of design. Remember that at some point
an aluminum part will always fail, because unlike steel alloys, aluminum has
no fatigue limit. Any level of elastic deformation will eventually cause
failure. Where would you want it? One blown eyelet or a rim collapse?
BTW, you are right about double eyelets, they only make sense.
In article <7tt4i8$qqn$2...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>,
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> Stan Cox writes:
>
> > I rode a pair of Super elite durex year round for 5 years until the
> > eyelets started going in the rear one this spring. I suspected at
> > the time that my wheelbuilder friend had built them too tight(He was
> > at that time recovering from a very very bad crash on the track and
> > his memory was shot. I think he built everything too tight for a
> > couple of months. But he's better now) and I think this is what
> > caused the eyelets to go. I would willingly buy another pair. BTW
> > mine were 32's and I'm roughly 195 pounds 88kg.
>
> If the rim cannot hold the tension in the spoke sockets, it's a bum
> rim. That is to say, the rim should be able to support spoke tension
> that will not collapse the rim in compression. If it cant do that,
> then it is poorly designed because it is too strong in hoop strength
> compared to its spoke attachment points. That is one of the main
> problem with single wall spoke support and why better rims have (or
> had) spoke sockets that loaded inner and outer walls of the rim.
>
> Boutique rims don't play by these rules, being only fashion. Those
> who buy this stuff are doing themselves a disservice because the
> sturdy designs are discontinued in the race for ever more exotic
> appearing rims. The demise of the Mavic MA-2 is a perfect example.
David Cásseres
Brandt) wrote:
>David Casseres writes:
>
>> The Wheelsmith site has been taken over by Mike's Bikes. I went in
>> and bought some brake cables last weekend and as far as I could tell
>> it was a decent-looking bike shop, still in the process of setting
>> up. The people I dealt with were pleasant and knowledgeable.
>
>> I seriously wonder if there's room for two bike shops that close
>> together, and Garner's has focused very successfully on the Stanford
>> U. market.
>
>There are two other bike shops within 200 yards, The Bike Connection
>(three doors down) and Cardinal Bike (same ownership), stores that
>cater to both ends of the bicycle market from competition to
>transportation and rentals. Garner's has the benefit of being older
>and having a large stock of parts, some of which are no longer being
>made.
I had the impression that those two places were only marketing to the
lower end. If they are serious at the higher end (or the middle) that's
great news, as it means the bike market is much stronger than I thought.
>Palo Alto Bicycles in downtown Palo Alto is doing better than ever and
>never saw Wheelsmith as competition for the reasons I believe had a
>lot to do with their failure. It was an elite shop that catered to an
>undefined group. Even their advertisement in the yellow pages has a
>picture of an expensive antique wheel truing stand under the title
>"store, workshop, museum". The museum was excellent but somehow the
>atmosphere left the average bicyclists out of the picture. The other
>problem, as I see it, was that both downtown, and at the last
>location, the repair shop was first in the basement down two flights
>of stairs, and then in the attic, up even more stairs (or a hydraulic
>elevator that took an age).
I agree, the hidden repair shop was a problem. It furthered the
impression of a boutique selling only high-priced gadgetry and clothes
plus exotic bikes.
Jobst Brandt
> Jobst, Allow me to set you somewhat closer to straight.
OK. Just this once though...
> As a lad in the early 80's I was not permitted to use tubular tires
> by the rules of the USCF and by the constraints of costs.
What rule and what has that got to do with rims? So I rode tubulars
for many years and switched to clinchers in 1968.
> I became familiar with the better clincher rims of the day. My rim
> of choice was the Mavic Module E2, a double-eyelet box-section
> clincher, the precursor to the MA2. It was available with a duller,
> hard silver finish and with a soft polished finish, though this may
> have been a running product change rather than two different
> options. There was also a cheaper, single-eyelet version called the
> Module E. I believe it was some time later that the grey, hard
> anodized version of the same rim became available as the G40. In
> any case the E2's were great rims (as are the MA2's) and vastly less
> prone to dents than the Rigida 1320 that I had used earlier. In any
> case the Mavic MA2 was the replacement for the Mavic E2, NOT for the
> Super Champion Gentleman, which was a competitive (and softer)
> product from a different manufacturer.
The manufacturer was Super Champion and the rim was Gentleman and I have
such a rim and it looks just like the MA-2.
You remember now, right?
No.
> Mavic gave us those OR 7's, OR 10's, SSC's... and Super Champion had the
> Record du Monde de l'Heure, Arc en Ciel... Super Champion was eventually
> acquired by Wolber, hence the later Wolber Gentleman.
And where did it go from there? I see no Wolbers on the market.
> As for the MA2 being older than the MA-40, I think this too is
> inaccurate.
The MA-2 and MA-40 are the same extrusion. I have cross sections of
them and have had them analyzed. I also recall when the MA-40 first
hit the market, after I had been using the MA-2 for years. The hard
anodizing rave came out all at once and people here on wreck.bike
echoed that advantages of their hardness while complaining about
cracked rims and poor braking at the same time. Strange times.
> The G40 was introduced as a slick new version of the E2, and both
> were kept in production until being simultaneously replaced by the
> MA40 and MA2. The relatively scarce MA replaced the Module E. Great
> rims all.
The E had a single wall support with only an eyelet, no socket as I
recall. That is why I never used it in spite of "everybody thinks
they're great".
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
Robert Perkins
The Europeans I see on bike marathons in the Alps generally are riding the latest
expensive frames with Dura Ace, Chorus, or Record. Many enthusiasts here don't
balk at laying out $3000 US for a bike.
That being said, my regular riding companions and I ride mostly old bikes, some
still with Superbe Pro & freewheels, most with 6-7 speeds.
Rob
Jay Beattie
Jobst Brandt wrote in message <7u5oeo$ndd$1...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>...
>anonymous writes:
>
>> Jobst, Allow me to set you somewhat closer to straight.
>
>OK. Just this once though...
>
>> As a lad in the early 80's I was not permitted to use tubular tires
>> by the rules of the USCF and by the constraints of costs.
>
>What rule and what has that got to do with rims? So I rode tubulars
>for many years and switched to clinchers in 1968.
<snip>
Just out of curiosity, what rim and tires were you using in 1968? IIRC, the
first lightweight clincher tires and rims hit the market in about 1974-5.
About the only good rims I know of before that time were the not-so-light
Super Champ Mod. 58 (or was it Mod. 52; I still have some on my touring
bike). It must have been quite a change back then switching from sew-ups. --
Jay Beattie.
lazy...@my-deja.com
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> anonymous writes:
>
> > Jobst, Allow me to set you somewhat closer to straight.
>
> OK. Just this once though...
>
I say "somewhat closer" because I welcome corrections from anyone who cares
to share them.
> > As a lad in the early 80's I was not permitted to use tubular tires
> > by the rules of the USCF and by the constraints of costs.
>
> What rule and what has that got to do with rims? So I rode tubulars
> for many years and switched to clinchers in 1968.
The point hear is that most people who rode high performance bikes rode
tubulars during the time in question. I figure there aren't really that many
people who were using this stuff, the first generation of clinchers that
offered tubular-like performance. I used clinchers at this time despite the
fact that I aspired to use tubulars like all the "good riders" In the early
80's the USCF didn't allow riders younger than 16 to use tubulars. This was
supposedly to save money for the (parents of) young riders. It also freed
the youngsters from the responsability of maintaining glued-on tires (though
plenty of seniors still had trouble).
>
> > I became familiar with the better clincher rims of the day. My rim
> > of choice was the Mavic Module E2, a double-eyelet box-section
> > clincher, the precursor to the MA2. It was available with a duller,
> > hard silver finish and with a soft polished finish, though this may
> > have been a running product change rather than two different
> > options. There was also a cheaper, single-eyelet version called the
> > Module E. I believe it was some time later that the grey, hard
> > anodized version of the same rim became available as the G40. In
> > any case the E2's were great rims (as are the MA2's) and vastly less
> > prone to dents than the Rigida 1320 that I had used earlier. In any
> > case the Mavic MA2 was the replacement for the Mavic E2, NOT for the
> > Super Champion Gentleman, which was a competitive (and softer)
> > product from a different manufacturer.
>
> The manufacturer was Super Champion and the rim was Gentleman and I have
> such a rim and it looks just like the MA-2.
>
looks just like? Well by all means, it must be the same thing. These were
two different products from two different companies. I believe they came from
different factories, but you never know in this business. The Gentleman was
comparable to the E2 and was on the market at the same time. It was not the
precusor to either the E2 or the later MA2.
> You remember now, right?
>
> No.
Isn't that around the time that you wrote the book?
You were riding back then, right?
> > Mavic gave us those OR 7's, OR 10's, SSC's... and Super Champion had the
> > Record du Monde de l'Heure, Arc en Ciel... Super Champion was eventually
> > acquired by Wolber, hence the later Wolber Gentleman.
>
> And where did it go from there? I see no Wolbers on the market.
The last Wolbers I saw were HA clinchers with no eyelets. Any company that
makes such a product probably deserves to go under. Maybe they did. The
last nice rim I saw from them was the v-section 18mm Profil. Nice.
Performance was selling Wolber rims in 1992 when I last worked for them.
> > As for the MA2 being older than the MA-40, I think this too is
> > inaccurate.
>
> The MA-2 and MA-40 are the same extrusion. I have cross sections of
> them and have had them analyzed.
Analyzed? For what? Hold up those cross sections, and it is clear that they
are dimensionally similar. Would MAVIC make two extrusions so similar is
cross section as to be visually indistinguishable. I'm guessing not. Was it
a metalurgical analysis? I think its pretty unlikely that the MA40 would be
made of a "better" alloy or have a special heat treatment. The anodizing
accounts for the differnce in price.
I also recall when the MA-40 first
> hit the market, after I had been using the MA-2 for years.
You must be thinking of when the G40 evolved from the E2 as I indicated
before. This hard anodized "upgrade" came out in about 1982. The G40 and E2
were simultaneously replaced with the MA40 and the MA-2, respectively, at
some later date. By then I had moved on to tubulars, only returning to my
senses in 1990 or so.
>The hard anodizing rave came out all at once and people here >on wreck.bike
> echoed that advantages of their hardness while complaining about
> cracked rims and poor braking at the same time. Strange times.
>
Geez, I had no idea so many cyclists were on the net when the hard anodizing
rave came out "all at once" over several years in the early 80's. I thought
that the net was just a few academics running 8086's back then.
As for poor braking, ride a set of hard anodized rims for a while and a nice
breaking surface will develop. It takes time to break in MA2's for that
matter, but less. Its the same way witn rim joints. They tend to flatten out
after a while, but they can be funky when new (Mavics seem to have the least
trouble this way). Hence the advantage of machined sidewalls. Some (very
few) riders need 100% performance without break in. Professional racers
don't ride much old equipment, and everyone else wants to think they need the
same performance. Do they? We know they don't., that's why we both advocate
for the MA2.
I don't think hard anodizing is without benefit. The finish is less prone to
scratching and corrosion than polished alloy, which is what anodizing
replaced. Besides the HA rims looked so exotic at the time, how could you
not want them? Now I see the HA finish being replaced by all sorts of "new"
colored finishes. Gotta keep the consumer happy.
> > The G40 was introduced as a slick new version of the E2, and both
> > were kept in production until being simultaneously replaced by the
> > MA40 and MA2. The relatively scarce MA replaced the Module E. Great
> > rims all.
>
> The E had a single wall support with only an eyelet, no socket as I
> recall. That is why I never used it in spite of "everybody thinks
> they're great".
The E was a box section, rim as I recall. It had only the eyelets in the
inner wall, what I call a "single eyelet." It lacked the socket and its
obvious benefits. I use the term (misnomer) "double eyelet" to describe
rims with the socket. Clearly these rims do not have an actual eylet in the
outer wall, since this would not transfer the spoke tension, but this is what
I've heard them refered to by the few who recognize the difference. I
correct people's semantics too often as it is. I'm trying to speak the same
language as other cyclists these days, even if it is painful. But that's my
shortcoming not theirs, don't you think?
JAVAEYE
>first lightweight clincher tires and rims hit the market in about 1974-5.
Panaracer had some out around that time or perhaps a bit later. The first
"generation" Panaracers had problems sticking to the road over small bumps.
Front wheels tended to not stick and over you would go. I and a few friends
had this happen two times each and we gave up on them. Then there was the
Michelin Elan.......
Brian Lafferty
Jobst Brandt
>>> Jobst, Allow me to set you somewhat closer to straight.
>> OK. Just this once though...
>>> As a lad in the early 80's I was not permitted to use tubular tires
>>> by the rules of the USCF and by the constraints of costs.
>> What rule and what has that got to do with rims? So I rode
>> tubulars for many years and switched to clinchers in 1968.
> Just out of curiosity, what rim and tires were you using in 1968?
I don't know whether it was 68 or 70 but as soon as Specialized came
out with the Touring-II I said goodbye to tubulars, especially because
Clement was shutting down.
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
lazy...@my-deja.com
shut down for? They were cerainly making fine, hand made tires in Italy
until the early 90's when they moved manufacturing to Thailand. I think they
finally gave up within the last few months.
Was the Touring II really avaiable in 1970, because my 1981 Trek 410 had
those tires mounted on Rigida 1320s. I'd be amazed if Specialized didn't
make some kind of change over those 10-plus years, even if the change was
nominal and for marketing effect. I used touring II's exclusively until I
went to tubulars. They had noting like a tubular ride, unlike clincher tires
today, which come close.
In article <7u7p05$p2e$5...@hplms2.hpl.hp.com>,
Jobst Brandt
>> The manufacturer was Super Champion and the rim was Gentleman and I
>> have such a rim and it looks just like the MA-2.
> looks just like? Well by all means, it must be the same thing.
I mean it is dimensionally identical, if you want to split hairs.
Besides, these other rim manufacturers were absorbed by Mavic at the
time they went under.
> These were two different products from two different companies. I
> believe they came from different factories, but you never know in
> this business. The Gentleman was comparable to the E2 and was on
> the market at the same time. It was not the precusor to either the
> E2 or the later MA2.
Well, I don't know that it was but everything I have seen points to
it. Mavic took over Super Champion and offered the identical rim
under the name MA-2. Draw your own conclusions. Even if it was made
on different tooling, it took the place of the Gentleman on the rim
market. I don't understand what you are pursuing. We were
disappointed when Super Champion went under and were relieved to see
that Mavic subsequently carried a rim that in every way appeared to be
the Gentleman in all respects except name.
>>> You remember now, right?
>> No.
> Isn't that around the time that you wrote the book?
> You were riding back then, right?
I was riding long before that. So what has that got to do with it?
>>> Mavic gave us those OR 7's, OR 10's, SSC's... and Super Champion
>>> had the Record du Monde de l'Heure, Arc en Ciel... Super Champion
>>> was eventually acquired by Wolber, hence the later Wolber
>>> Gentleman.
>> And where did it go from there? I see no Wolbers on the market.
> The last Wolbers I saw were HA clinchers with no eyelets. Any
> company that makes such a product probably deserves to go under.
> Maybe they did. The last nice rim I saw from them was the v-section
> 18mm Profile. Nice. Performance was selling Wolber rims in 1992
> when I last worked for them.
You missed my point. So these companies went under and yet there is
the same identical rim on the market with a different label. You say
this is not the same rim. I don't care how you define that, the
profile is the same and it has filled the demands of people who
formerly were customers of the identical rim under a different name.
Whether Mavic started from first principals and copied the rim, or
used the same tooling is irrelevant to me.
>>> As for the MA2 being older than the MA-40, I think this too is
>>> inaccurate.
>> The MA-2 and MA-40 are the same extrusion. I have cross sections of
>> them and have had them analyzed.
> Analyzed? For what? Hold up those cross sections, and it is clear
> that they are dimensionally similar.
I had them analyzed for material, but primarily for crack initiation.
Micrograms of cross sections clearly show the crazing of the anodizing
and the propagation of these cracks into the base metal. In contrast
the MA-2 showed no such cracks, both rims having similar mileage. This
was done at a time when people with similar lines of discussion as
yours claimed that anodizing had only beneficial effects on rims and
that the MA-40 was heat treated. This extrusion alloy does not lend
itself to heat treatment.
> Would MAVIC make two extrusions so similar is cross section as to be
> visually indistinguishable. I'm guessing not. Was it a
> metalurgical analysis? I think its pretty unlikely that the MA40
> would be made of a "better" alloy or have a special heat treatment.
> The anodizing accounts for the differnce in price.
Well? So what else is new?
> I also recall when the MA-40 first hit the market, after I had
> been using the MA-2 for years.
> You must be thinking of when the G40 evolved from the E2 as I indicated
> before.
I am not.
> This hard anodized "upgrade" came out in about 1982. The G40 and E2
> were simultaneously replaced with the MA40 and the MA-2,
> respectively, at some later date. By then I had moved on to
> tubulars, only returning to my senses in 1990 or so.
That doesn't disagree with what I said. The MA-40 came substantially
later than the MA-2 at Mavic. In fact, I believe the rim had a
different name when Mavic first produced it.
>> The hard anodizing rave came out all at once and people here on
>> wreck.bike echoed that advantages of their hardness while
>> complaining about cracked rims and poor braking at the same time.
>> Strange times.
> Geez, I had no idea so many cyclists were on the net when the hard
> anodizing rave came out "all at once" over several years in the
> early 80's. I thought that the net was just a few academics running
> 8086's back then.
There were individual colored anodized rims from way back but the big
push about "hard anodizing" was relatively recent and every rim
company began to have dark olive brown, heat treated, anodized rims.
Before that the marketing was low key and aimed at color and
appearance. Then came the pseudo-science of the benefits of anodizing
that weren't there. In fact it still has only drawbacks, primarily
cracking but also poor braking until the coating wears thin or
entirely away... but then that has been discussed endlessly here.
> As for poor braking, ride a set of hard anodized rims for a while
> and a nice breaking surface will develop. It takes time to break in
> MA2's for that matter, but less.
What wears in with an MA-2. I haven't seen any change and have often
enough headed out on a ride with a new rim.
> Its the same way with rim joints. They tend to flatten out after a
> while, but they can be funky when new (Mavics seem to have the least
> trouble this way). Hence the advantage of machined sidewalls.
Not that too. There is no functional discontinuity on these rims and
anyone who claims that is a problem can join the "princess and the
pea" fable. The plug in the rim joint fits with a press fit into both
parts. For there to be a step on the outside, a difference of wall
thickness between the ends of the step height must exist. This can
happen in an extrusion over two meters of length but it isn't more
than a tenth of a millimeter.
> Some (very few) riders need 100% performance without break in.
I don't believe a word of it.
> Professional racers don't ride much old equipment, and everyone else
> wants to think they need the same performance. Do they? We know
> they don't., that's why we both advocate for the MA2.
I don't see how this derives from what you said about break in and rim
machining, etc.
> I don't think hard anodizing is without benefit. The finish is less
> prone to> scratching and corrosion than polished alloy, which is
> what anodizing replaced.
The rim must be polished before anodizing or the anodized surface will
be rough (they aren't) and rim corrosion is something I have not
encountered in all the years of my bicycling except on steel rims.
There is NO benefit to bicycling with anodizing.
> Besides the HA rims looked so exotic at the time, how could you not
> want them? Now I see the HA finish being replaced by all sorts of
> "new" colored finishes. Gotta keep the consumer happy.
Well, therein lies the problem. You think anodizing looks better. I
think metals look best in their natural color, and that (hard)
anodized rims are dirty, just as a black car is "always" dirty because
it shows every speck of foreign material.
Who are you anyway? Are you ashamed of your name or do you work for
the CIA... or both?
Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
lazy...@my-deja.com
jbr...@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt) wrote:
> anonymous writes again:
>
> >> The manufacturer was Super Champion and the rim was Gentleman and I
> >> have such a rim and it looks just like the MA-2.
>
> > looks just like? Well by all means, it must be the same thing.
>
> I mean it is dimensionally identical, if you want to split hairs.
Sorry, for a minute I thought I was an engineer.
> Besides, these other rim manufacturers were absorbed by Mavic at the
> time they went under.
This is news to me. SC was taken up by Wolber a long time ago, but as of the
early '90's Wolber was still around. I have no reason to say that they have
not since been aquired by Mavic, but it would have been in the last 5 years
or so. This conflicts with.....
>
> > These were two different products from two different companies. I
> > believe they came from different factories, but you never know in
> > this business. The Gentleman was comparable to the E2 and was on
> > the market at the same time. It was not the precusor to either the
> > E2 or the later MA2.
>
> Well, I don't know that it was but everything I have seen points to
> it. Mavic took over Super Champion and offered the identical rim
> under the name MA-2.
(Tom's note: the E2 was closer to the shape of the Gentleman than the MA2 is)
Draw your own conclusions. Even if it was made
> on different tooling, it took the place of the Gentleman on the rim
> market. I don't understand what you are pursuing. We were
> disappointed when Super Champion went under and were relieved to see
> that Mavic subsequently carried a rim that in every way appeared to be
> the Gentleman in all respects except name.
>
....the notion that the Mavic E2 or MA2 (you pick) rim became available
subsequent to Mavic aquiring or driving out of business either SC or Wolber.
As far as this "same except in name" stuff, my experience (or perhaps my
prejudice based on limited casual observation) is that I have seen far more
Gentleman rims with dents and flat spots. I think they were made of a softer
material.
>I don't understand what you are pursuing.
Okay, you asked the real question. Here's what I am pursuing: You are
wrong. That is not a bad thing, or even notable in and of itself. Hell, I'm
wrong all the time. I do generally know the quality of my information,
however. I have presented a number of pieces of information that I have
solid evidence to support, and I have treated them as facts. In addition, I
have carefully indicated where I am being speculative, or conjectural. The
facts I have indicate that you are mistaken about the history of a number of
important products about which you are believed to be an expert. Realize
that there are lots of nameless people out there who know a ton about
bicycles. Some of these people have formal training in engineering, some
have experience in the industry, some have tons of on-the-road experience,
some a bit of each. The best of these people are always learning, and
willing to entertain the notion that they have some of the facts wrong. I am
definately not getting that "vibe" from you. You're probably sick of being
told to lighten up, but I think you will learn more if you assume that, for
example, shop mechanics "who aren't ones to pick up a dictionary" may know
something you don't.
> >>> You remember now, right?
>
> >> No.
>
> > Isn't that around the time that you wrote the book?
> > You were riding back then, right?
>
> I was riding long before that. So what has that got to do with it?
>
That is what is called a petty jab. my apologies.
> >>> Mavic gave us those OR 7's, OR 10's, SSC's... and Super Champion
> >>> had the Record du Monde de l'Heure, Arc en Ciel... Super Champion
> >>> was eventually acquired by Wolber, hence the later Wolber
> >>> Gentleman.
>
> >> And where did it go from there? I see no Wolbers on the market.
>
> > The last Wolbers I saw were HA clinchers with no eyelets. Any
> > company that makes such a product probably deserves to go under.
> > Maybe they did. The last nice rim I saw from them was the v-section
> > 18mm Profile. Nice. Performance was selling Wolber rims in 1992
> > when I last worked for them.
>
> You missed my point. So these companies went under and yet there is
> the same identical rim on the market with a different label. You say
> this is not the same rim. I don't care how you define that, the
> profile is the same and it has filled the demands of people who
> formerly were customers of the identical rim under a different name.
> Whether Mavic started from first principals and copied the rim, or
> used the same tooling is irrelevant to me.
No, no, no. This gets back to the facts regarding what was available when.
And your facts are, in fact, not facts...and dat's a fact. But this is not a
problem here. If "history" is remembered inaccurately sometimes it is a big,
big, problem. In this case I doubt anyone, save myself, really cares.
>
> >>> As for the MA2 being older than the MA-40, I think this too is
> >>> inaccurate.
>
> >> The MA-2 and MA-40 are the same extrusion. I have cross sections of
> >> them and have had them analyzed.
>
> > Analyzed? For what? Hold up those cross sections, and it is clear
> > that they are dimensionally similar.
>
> I had them analyzed for material, but primarily for crack initiation.
> Micrograms of cross sections clearly show the crazing of the anodizing
> and the propagation of these cracks into the base metal. In contrast
> the MA-2 showed no such cracks, both rims having similar mileage. This
> was done at a time when people with similar lines of discussion as
> yours claimed that anodizing had only beneficial effects on rims and
> that the MA-40 was heat treated. This extrusion alloy does not lend
> itself to heat treatment.
>
Good info. Based on the observation of many ruptured HA rims, it comes as no
big surprise.
> > Would MAVIC make two extrusions so similar is cross section as to be
> > visually indistinguishable. I'm guessing not. Was it a
> > metalurgical analysis? I think its pretty unlikely that the MA40
> > would be made of a "better" alloy or have a special heat treatment.
> > The anodizing accounts for the differnce in price.
>
> Well? So what else is new?
>
I was implying that it seemed silly to do any dimensional checks when common
sense indicates that they are the same rim. Apparently you did some
metalurgical tests. That's cool.
> > I also recall when the MA-40 first hit the market, after I had
> > been using the MA-2 for years.
>
> > You must be thinking of when the G40 evolved from the E2 as I indicated
> > before.
>
> I am not.
If you say so....
> > This hard anodized "upgrade" came out in about 1982. The G40 and E2
> > were simultaneously replaced with the MA40 and the MA-2,
> > respectively, at some later date. By then I had moved on to
> > tubulars, only returning to my senses in 1990 or so.
>
> That doesn't disagree with what I said. The MA-40 came substantially
> later than the MA-2 at Mavic.
Yes, it absolutely does disagree. I said "simultaneously" and you said
"substantially later"
>In fact, I believe the rim had a different name when Mavic first produced
it.
You're not suggesting that the MA40 was a name change to the G40, are you?
They definately had different shapes. But this simple misunderstanding would
make sense of all the other stuff you have said, because the G40 did come out
substantially later than the E2. But I don't think this is the limit of your
misunderstanding.
>
> >> The hard anodizing rave came out all at once and people here on
> >> wreck.bike echoed that advantages of their hardness while
> >> complaining about cracked rims and poor braking at the same time.
> >> Strange times.
>
> > Geez, I had no idea so many cyclists were on the net when the hard
> > anodizing rave came out "all at once" over several years in the
> > early 80's. I thought that the net was just a few academics running
> > 8086's back then.
>
> There were individual colored anodized rims from way back but the big
> push about "hard anodizing" was relatively recent and every rim
> company began to have dark olive brown, heat treated, anodized rims.
> Before that the marketing was low key and aimed at color and
> appearance. Then came the pseudo-science of the benefits of anodizing
> that weren't there. In fact it still has only drawbacks, primarily
> cracking but also poor braking until the coating wears thin or
> entirely away... but then that has been discussed endlessly here.
>
As I have suggested, the advantage IS cosmetic. These two tems are not
mutually exclusive among even intelligent riders. I like the way HA rims
look and so do many other people. So what if you might have to scrap them a
bit sooner. Also, where did you see the marketing that touted the benefits
of HA? I think people saw it, liked it, assumed it was better, and consumed.
> > As for poor braking, ride a set of hard anodized rims for a while
> > and a nice breaking surface will develop. It takes time to break in
> > MA2's for that matter, but less.
>
> What wears in with an MA-2. I haven't seen any change and have often
> enough headed out on a ride with a new rim.
>
Yeah, they work fine when brand new. I find that the braking improves when
the "clear anodizing" (correct me if it is not actually anodizing) wears
away, and a bit of rubber gets on the rim, the breaking is more forceful and
predictable.
> > Its the same way with rim joints. They tend to flatten out after a
> > while, but they can be funky when new (Mavics seem to have the least
> > trouble this way). Hence the advantage of machined sidewalls.
>
> Not that too. There is no functional discontinuity on these rims and
> anyone who claims that is a problem can join the "princess and the
> pea" fable. The plug in the rim joint fits with a press fit into both
> parts. For there to be a step on the outside, a difference of wall
> thickness between the ends of the step height must exist. This can
> happen in an extrusion over two meters of length but it isn't more
> than a tenth of a millimeter.
>
Well then, a tenth is enough for my fair ass to feel. thunk, thunk, thunk.
And I don't like it, if only for asthetic reasons. It is also a small enough
amount, in most cases, that it wears flat and smooth braking results.
If you argue with the following I will have to seriously question who many
wheels you have actually built:
Not all rim seams are even. In addition to the variation in wall thickness
that you referred to, there are other issues. If they can't exist on the
notepad, they certainly do in the stand. I have had box-section rims that
were laterally offset at the joint, plug or no plug. A gentle tap with a
mallet will sometimes put things right. The joints on Open 4's, for example,
can be knocked way off by hitting a bump, but can often be reset by a good
mechanic. Perhaps that press fit isn't so tight. Also, on some Campy rims,
perhaps defective ones, I have found easily measurable differences in the rim
width at the braking surface on new, properly built, wheels. The braking was
terrible. I thought my fork would snap at the crown. No I didn't record the
dimensional error, but the vernier caliper "saw" it easily.
> > Some (very few) riders need 100% performance without break in.
>
> I don't believe a word of it.
Some. Very few. Perhaps "prefer" or "appreciate" would be better than
"need". Personally I prefer not to feel the rim seem with by brakes. If you
haven't ever noticed this "problem" pay attention. In extreme cases it would
cause sudden small increases in braking force. Bad news in a wet corner.
>
> > Professional racers don't ride much old equipment, and everyone else
> > wants to think they need the same performance. Do they? We know
> > they don't., that's why we both advocate for the MA2.
>
> I don't see how this derives from what you said about break in and rim
> machining, etc.
>
It is the pros who arguably might benefit from this ready-to-race equipment.
The rest of us buy it because it is there, looks cool, Lance rides it, its
the "latest tech" ... whatever. Don't look down your nose at the customers
reasons. So what if he/she overbuys? This benefits the industry that makes
the stuff that allows us to enjoy a good bike ride. And if MA2s are NLA, so
what? We can ride something else. Are your demands so severe that the best
currently available stuff just won't do?
> > I don't think hard anodizing is without benefit. The finish is less
> > prone to> scratching and corrosion than polished alloy, which is
> > what anodizing replaced.
>
> The rim must be polished before anodizing or the anodized surface will
> be rough (they aren't) and rim corrosion is something I have not
> encountered in all the years of my bicycling except on steel rims.
> There is NO benefit to bicycling with anodizing.
Open your eyes! A used, 20-year-old Fiamme Ergal is not as shiny as new.
Does this make it fail? Of course not. A little corrosion is all that will
accumulate, then it stops. But it doesn't look as nice. "Cosmetic
advantage" is not an oxymoron to someone who loves the machine as he does the
sport.
> > Besides the HA rims looked so exotic at the time, how could you not
> > want them? Now I see the HA finish being replaced by all sorts of
> > "new" colored finishes. Gotta keep the consumer happy.
>
> Well, therein lies the problem. You think anodizing looks better. I
> think metals look best in their natural color, and that (hard)
> anodized rims are dirty, just as a black car is "always" dirty because
> it shows every speck of foreign material.
>
> Who are you anyway? Are you ashamed of your name or do you work for
> the CIA... or both?
I'm certainly not ashamed of my name. However I don't suffer the sort of
hubris that would lead me to write a book on a subject about which I had very
spotty knowledge, so you might not have heard of me. For your information,
the name is Thomas S. Dalton.
Steve Sloan
very fine cycling products and businesses go under. Wheelsmiths was not
only a fine business, they hosted some great cycling events. They brought
in great riders and had cycling film nights and I don't know of any other
shops that did this. You could go up to the counter and buy VeloNews and
CycleSport and they carried wool jerseys and sold Waterfords, products I
couldn't find anywhere else in the south bay.
MA2 rims are great rims. Like Jobst I bought a bunch and plan to buy
more. I am very happy with my MA2s. I have some other rims I ride, but
when they wear out I will likely replace them with MA2s. An MA2 is all
the rim I need.
Velox bar plugs are another product I miss. They just make so much sense
and look so much nicer than the plastic pieces of junk.
When it comes to racing I am a spectator not a racer. I ride about 5000
miles a year. I like lugged steel frames, mostly for esthetics. I treat
my bikes well and see no reason for upgrading what is working for me.
Maybe its because of riders like me that shops that cater to riders like
me don't stay in business. I am getting one more bike and that should
last me the rest of my life (a Rivendell.) Other than that everything is
working great. I see no reason to "upgrade."
I replace the parts that wear out (and that includes clothes) but other
than that I try not to buy a lot of stuff because I don't need to. The
stuff I have is fine. If you buy good stuff it lasts.
Could it be: if the cyclist community only bought stuff they were going to
use, used stuff until it wore out, cyclists only replaced worn components,
cycling companies always supplied parts that were backward compatible with
the parts that wear out and (gasp) parts were compatible between
manufacturers lines; there wouldn't be enough profit there for anybody?
Could it be the market depends on snazzy (faddish) looking products that
either don't last or are replaced with new "upgraded" incompatible product
lines in 12 months in order to survive?
Nah, coudn't be that.
Steve Sloan
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
John Everett
nospam_rob...@nortel-dasa.de says...
>
>I just built up two MA2 wheels tonight and the rim is 1.5-2 mm wider at
>the rim joint. I built with JB methods. How do you explain that?
I just checked a pair of MA2 wheels I built last spring (and have only ridden
once) with a dial caliper, and the joint area measures the same as the rest of
the rim to within .001" on both wheels.
--
jeverett<AT>wwa<DOT>com (John Everett) http://www.wwa.com/~jeverett
Michael Slavitch
I have similar Mavic rims, that look like satin MA/2's, and indeed
the coating can be scraped off with a knife or even a screwdriver.
Perhaps it's just satin-colored paint?
--
Jeffrey J. Potoff
The market doesn't depend on any of this stuff. As I mentioned in
another
thread, the big money in the bicycle biz is in service. Not high end
parts like everyone seems to think it is. This whole "fad" thing is a
non-issue as far as the LBS is concerned. The shop I used to work
in never sold *any* of those high end parts and yet we made lots of
cash. How ? Service. You fix anything that comes in the door. Do
it right and at a fair price and you're all set.
Jeff
Steve Sloan
<pot...@chem.umn.edu> wrote:
> The market doesn't depend on any of this stuff. As I mentioned in
> another
> thread, the big money in the bicycle biz is in service. Not high end
> parts like everyone seems to think it is. This whole "fad" thing is a
> non-issue as far as the LBS is concerned. The shop I used to work
> in never sold *any* of those high end parts and yet we made lots of
> cash. How ? Service. You fix anything that comes in the door. Do
> it right and at a fair price and you're all set.
>
> Jeff
I am a bike rider not a shop owner and I don't doubt that what you say is
true. But, I simply do not understand why bike parts manufacturers and
the bike manufacturers that market to most bike shops make such sweeping
changes to their product lines every year unless it is planned
obsolesces. I have yet to see a good reason for 9 speed groups, except
for that!
Service may be where most LBS's make their money, but it's not where
Mavic, Campy, Shimano, Rock Shox, Trek, Cannondale and many more make
theirs. I do most of my own service and maintain my bikes while letting a
bike shop do the major stuff.
I was surprised when I got into cycling and saw how the bike lines change
every year. It reminds me of when I was a kid and the new cars came out
every year. I'll never forget how excited I was to see the 1965 MustangŠ
Steve Sloan
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
Steve Sloan
<<TONS CLIPPED>>
> I'm certainly not ashamed of my name. However I don't suffer the sort of
> hubris that would lead me to write a book on a subject about which I had very
> spotty knowledge, so you might not have heard of me. For your information,
> the name is Thomas S. Dalton.
Why waste time bashing Jobst? If you don't like what he writes don't read
it. What, you don't have anything better to do? Hey I have an idea! The
weather's still nice, why not go for a ride?
Steve Sloan
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
Rob Perkins
will report back in a couple of weeks when I return from California.
Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Rob Perkins writes:
>
> > I just built up two MA2 wheels tonight and the rim is 1.5-2 mm wider at
> > the rim joint. I built with JB methods. How do you explain that?
>
> I'll have to take your word for that, I can't disprove that over the
> phone, so to speak. I have built many wheels and have never had a
> discontinuity in the rim large enough to notice when braking. I have
> had damaged rims with offsets but even those that were recoverable
> were barely audible on the brake pad and not perceptible in braking.
>
> How does this difference affect braking?
>
> Jobst Brandt <jbr...@hpl.hp.com>
lazy...@my-deja.com
net on company time, it is much harder to go for a ride without the boss
noticing. I suppose I should concentrate on getting my work done, but that's
so boring.
As for "bashing" on poor JB, I didn't start out with the intention of being
negative. I've seen some very condescending posts coming from his direction,
and he seems to generally dismiss other peoples insights (often based on
actual experience) as superstition. I just wanted to correct some things
that he was clearly confused about, mostly to see if he might entertain the
notion of his own falibilty. No such luck.
In article <sloan-20109...@labor.sjsu.edu>,
sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu (Steve Sloan) wrote:
> In article <7uifa6$oke$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, lazy...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> <<TONS CLIPPED>>
>
> > I'm certainly not ashamed of my name. However I don't suffer the sort of
> > hubris that would lead me to write a book on a subject about which I had very
> > spotty knowledge, so you might not have heard of me. For your information,
> > the name is Thomas S. Dalton.
>
> Why waste time bashing Jobst? If you don't like what he writes don't read
> it. What, you don't have anything better to do? Hey I have an idea! The
> weather's still nice, why not go for a ride?
>
> Steve Sloan
> sl...@jmc.sjsu.edu
>