Idea for future of electronic gear shift. Beware, contains actual "tech" content.

[James]

So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
switches and a battery. But what's next?

Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
using a coil?

How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
and it just happens?

It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
gear cables as long as I can.

--
J "Not and early adopter" S.

[Lou Holtman]

Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:

> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>
> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.

Lou

> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>
> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>
> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
> using a coil?
>
> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
> and it just happens?
>
> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
> gear cables as long as I can.

It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your head to buy or use anything.

Lou

[John B.]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

But think of the delicious amounts of money one will be able to spend
on these accessories and the syncopating equipment reviews that can be
written in the magazines. A whole new equipment sub-species.

[Frank Krygowski]

One thing I've done over the years with lots of decisions (home
remodeling, work-related, car buying, etc. etc.) is to evaluate
features or benefits on a dollar benefit basis, asking "What would I
be willing to spend for that benefit?"

The answer varies for each individual, of course. But with some bike
developments, the amount of benefit is greatly exaggerated. And the
"benefit" of simply being the first guy on the block with the new toy
is rarely admitted.

What would I pay for the "benefit" of trading a perfectly functioning
steel cable for a wire and battery? Hmmm....

- Frank Krygowski

[datakoll]

are connecting wires durable ? what gauge ? where's the ground ? Can the LBS use a multimeter ?

how waterproof moving parts ?

where do we get the psare rubber grommet/cover when it falls off ?

WHAT'S THE POINT ?

self powered eleccycle ?

[datakoll]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=MARKET+EVOLUTION++OF+PRODUCTS&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48


development of search terms.....from the menu maybe Goo is working on this

its like LED sneakers.....

[datakoll]

[datakoll]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=MARKET+EVOLUTION++OF+ELECTRONIC++VEHICLE+DEVICES+SYSTEMS&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48

[datakoll]

of limits

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=+GENERATING+ELECTRIC+POWER+FROM+LIVING+TREES&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48

[russell...@yahoo.com]

Is "trade" the right question? I have 9 bikes. One is Shimano Di2 electronic. I did not "trade" any of my other bikes for this one. I simply "added" it to the pool. I have bikes with Campagnolo and Shimano cable shifters. Campagnolo is clearly superior. But the Shimano provides a different perspective or even advantages in a few cases. Advantage being the ability to get cassettes with huge cogs easily. Shimano Di2 is different. The front derailleur shifting is superior. Worth it? Thousands upon thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to the car company to "upgrade" the engine on a car from 4 to 6 cylinders or 6 to 8 cylinders. Many people on this forum have paid more than Di2 cost to upgrade the engine on a car/truck. Worth it?

[AMuzi]

Options abound, which is good.

My fixed gear bike is dependable to an otherworldly level.
I change the chain annually. Haven't done anything much else
on it since 1992. Starts and runs at well below zero too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>
>> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>
> How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.

Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
cables. This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
duty cable).

And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
think about recharging? Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
dynamo powered lights.

Like Microsoft, when Shimano invents a "standard", others sprint to
catch up, not wanting to be left behind. It doesn't surprise me at all.

>> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
>> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>>
>> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
>> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
>> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>>
>> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
>> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
>> using a coil?
>>
>> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
>> and it just happens?
>>
>> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>> gear cables as long as I can.
>

> It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
> use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
> watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
> head to buy or use anything.

Well, that's an interesting question. How long will traditional cable
driven components at, say, Ultegra/Chorus level be available?

I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.

That would be a useful improvement - if it was made reliable and
serviceable.

--
JS.

[James]

On 06/07/12 03:48, datakoll wrote:
> are connecting wires durable ? what gauge ? where's the ground ? Can the LBS use a multimeter ?

If it doesn't work, you'll need to replace it. ($$)

> how waterproof moving parts ?

Campag EPS components have an IP67 rating.

http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technologies/water-proof-ip67

"The Campagnolo EPS electronic drivetrain complies with IP67
international standards.

This means that the system is able to protect its electronic components
from dust and liquid infiltration.

In order to achieve the IP67 classification, all the electronic
components of the EPS system underwent a series of tests, which proved
their ability to function perfectly under one meter of water for at
least 30 minutes."

> where do we get the psare rubber grommet/cover when it falls off ?

Campy will probably sell spares. Shimano will probably demand you spend
on a new derailleur.

> WHAT'S THE POINT ?

That's my point.

> self powered eleccycle ?

Electric scooters have been around for a while now.

--
JS.

[Lou Holtman]

Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 23:51:22 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:

> On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
> >> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
> >> switches and a battery. But what's next?
> >>
> >> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
> >
> > How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.
>
> Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
> broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
> cables.

Electric cables are ideal for internal routing and the frames are optimized for that. Tests have proved that they are very robust.

>This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
> wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
> duty cable).

The manufacturers have never tried to make them robust and by the way people replaced them with wireless ones mainly because of the looks.

>
> And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
> think about recharging?

Yep you need a battery. Recharging is not an issue once every couple of weeks or months IIRC.

> Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
> dynamo powered lights.

Ai all the prone cables you need for your dynamo powered lights. How can you live by that?

>
> Like Microsoft, when Shimano invents a "standard", others sprint to
> catch up, not wanting to be left behind. It doesn't surprise me at all.
>
> >> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
> >> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
> >>
> >> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
> >> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
> >> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
> >>
> >> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
> >> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
> >> using a coil?
> >>
> >> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
> >> and it just happens?
> >>
> >> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
> >> gear cables as long as I can.
> >
>
> > It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
> > use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
> > watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
> > head to buy or use anything.
>
> Well, that's an interesting question. How long will traditional cable
> driven components at, say, Ultegra/Chorus level be available?

As long as the electric stuff stay that expensive.

>
> I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
> pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
> changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
> like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
> chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.

Weight is not an issue, efficiency is. Front derailleur maybe primitive but it is simple, it works. The automatic trimming is the main feature of the electric powered FD IMO.


Lou

[raamman]

On Jul 5, 2:16 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:

absolutely right, and blue tooth or wireless function is the next
inevetable step. cableless brakes will follow; then a security key to
enable proper function by the rider.

[James]

On 06/07/12 08:17, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 23:51:22 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
>> On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
>>>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>>>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>>>
>>>> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>>>
>>> How is that a pain? I'm surpised how fast they opimized the frames for electric shifting.
>>
>> Electric cables are prone to being squashed, damaged and eventually
>> broken. They are not very robust compared with traditional gear/brake
>> cables.
>
> Electric cables are ideal for internal routing and the frames are
optimized for that. Tests have proved that they are very robust.
>

Which tests?

Obviously the wires inside the frame are well protected from being
squashed. They have to exit the frame somewhere though, and are then
prone to being yanked and crushed.

Hell, I once had a bike computer cable wrecked by a dog that chewed on
it. Shit happens - and more likely to an electrical cable than a SS
gear/brake cable.

>> This is why bicycle computer cables are largely replaced by
>> wireless solutions (or at the least they sell MTB computers with heavy
>> duty cable).
>
> The manufacturers have never tried to make them robust and by the
> way people replaced them with wireless ones mainly because of the looks.

I disagree.

<http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/computer/cateye/enduro-8/prd_425993_114crx.aspx>

"The reliable Enduro 8 computer offers a large gauge, heavy-duty wire -
making it ideal for off-road use and more demanding conditions."

>> And who wants a big battery pack stuck to the frame that you have to
>> think about recharging?
>
> Yep you need a battery. Recharging is not an issue once every couple of weeks or months IIRC.
>

Something I'd like to avoid - hence my idea of a miniature electrical
generator/alternator and the use of supercaps or the like instead of a
bulk storage battery and wires.

>> Not me thanks. It's one of the reasons I use
>> dynamo powered lights.
>
> Ai all the prone cables you need for your dynamo powered lights. How can you live by that?

I built mine with very heavy duty figure 8 cable. Many battery powered
lights have a separate battery pack and a cable also. I've also had a
battery die through vibration, which is another reason not to like them.

Efficiency may be difficult to match.

--
JS.

[James]

On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:

> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>
>>

>> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>> gear cables as long as I can.
>
> It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
head to buy or use anything.
>

Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
cassettes and outboard BB bearings. It's not like I'm against
innovation where I see real benefit to me.

It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
actuators replaced. 3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. My
mechanical door locks are still fine. I like DL (Distributed Locking)
as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.

--
JS.

[datakoll]

> My fixed gear bike is dependable to an otherworldly level.
> I change the chain annually. Haven't done anything much else
> on it since 1992. Starts and runs at well below zero too.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>

> Open every day since 1 April, 1972


when IC horseless carraiges loomed on the horizon, as it was, did people say "SHIT, WHO NEEDS THIS CRAP"? dissing the new IC carraige.

or did they immediately see advantages to not eating manure with meals ?

well, waht's ineffective with a bell crank clutch/brake linkage ? freezes at 15 slush ?

I was loooking, without adequate time, for a pyramid effect at the manufacturers.

If passing costs to consumers on complex bases...as the eletronics base moves way out from the bell crank foundry base...the more comllex a base the more value the manufacturer has in the marketplace.

you get the costs passed on, the manufacturers get larger and larger going to TYCO levels.

see all the functions involved in larger ?

no one needs this electronic but build the field and they will come right into thier wallet reality...LARGER.

METAPHYSICALLY, future reality may call back on past reality to afford its being.

Still, those small gauge wires are a muthafucker to deal with.

S

[datakoll]

EYEYEYHAHHAHHAHAH LOCAL NOISE SEZ "THEY CAN BUY A JET..."

now i think abt buying a jet maybe twice a year but a captain of industry ? maybe driven mad to afford jet ownership, a fleet of limo's, a corp yaht decked wit lolita and friends....villa on the mex coast...' trips to Hong Kong...5 exec secretaries.....

you pay the frieght: the eleccyle

[datakoll]

a jet....I'm in Boingland...the weather is superb in the Cascades. The kids are taking laps of Loops A thru C...

[datakoll]

wire is expensive.

when the electrics malfunction, where doya look ?

there's a market segment....one comes out of the ground hereabout's, ask him..

and the market segment begs exploitation for profit.

the benfit is the future self powering eleccycle.

gotta be so it is: Que Sera ! tainted meat !

[datakoll]

M-B doesnot give a HOOT waht James thinks abt servo door locks.

But muh van has a servo door lock system simplifies life IF YOU REMEBER TO UNLOCK BEFORE EVA.

I criiiinnnnnnnngggggg at the expense involved for service on an older Merc French sedan but these bike parts will cost peanuts, wrok precisely, effortlessly..

remeber, you speaking or discussing a group who goes on into the future babbling abt energy savings as if the original electricity source was cost free...like plug into your maple.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jul 5, 10:17 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
> You are getting old James. You have tio
> watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
> head to buy or use anything.
>
> Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
> cassettes and outboard BB bearings.  It's not like I'm against
> innovation where I see real benefit to me.

Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.

> It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
> actuators replaced.  3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time.  My
> mechanical door locks are still fine.  I like DL (Distributed Locking)
> as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.

To me, one of the biggest problems with electronic anything is the
lack of repairability. Mechanical systems I can usually fix with
tools I own, using homemade parts or baling wire if necessary.
Electronic part failures generally mean buying a replacement, if I'm
"lucky" enough that the device I have is still fashionable enough to
be on the market.

Derailleurs from 1940 can still be fixed by a good mechanic. Anybody
got spare electrical parts for a Mavic Zap? I doubt it. It would be
easier to find spare Betamax parts.

- Frank Krygowski



>
> --
> JS.

[John B.]

Come now Frank, it was known as "keeping up with the Jones" and was a
marketing ploy at least as early as the Roman Empire :-)

But I wonder about these marvels of progress. I once read an interview
with Eddie Merckx, I believe it was, and he was asked about the new
Shimano indexed shifting. Eddie said that it was a nice system and the
interviewer said something like, "you will probably never miss another
shift" and Merkx replied, "I haven't missed a shift since I was eight
years old".

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>switches and a battery. But what's next?

That should be obvious. A fully automatic bicycle. Such a machine
would not be for you or me. We're both accustomed to shifting to the
point where it is almost unconscious. However, there are a great
number of individuals that are not so familiar with the art of
shifting. I've seen bicycles with the detailer cables rusted in
place. For these people, a fully automatic transmission would be
quite useful.

For electric brakes, the obvious next step is to mimic the automobile
technology and add anti-skid ABS braking systems. However, that's not
the main advantage. Electric brakes are force multipliers that can
make it possible for someone with a weak grip or misadjusted calipers,
to stop the bike.

Once we add the battery, wires, and microprocessor to the machine, the
possibilities are endless. Integrated lighting system, 360 cameras,
gyro stabilization, navigation aids, can be added once a power source
is provided. However, I suspect that the initial exploitation will be
less attractive. For example, not needing to shift and using push
button brakes might translate into an excuse to yack on a cell phone
while riding.

>Those cables and the battery are still a pain.

Yep. But that's because the bicycle frame is not designed to
accommodate them. Bolt-ons always look crude. Cables should be
routed inside the tubes. If impossible, then inside a molded conduit
attached to the outside of the tubes. I use a form of flat ethernet
cable designed to lay flat under a carpet, which might be a good
start. Something like this, but with ears:
<http://www.vpi.us/cable-sf.html>

The battery is a problem. It won't require something as large as an
electric bicycle battery, but a sandwich of LiIon batteries mounted on
the inside of the frame, shouldn't be too obnoxious. Again, the frame
should be designed to accomidate the battery.

>Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
>gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?

Three problems in one sentence.
1. It would not require a heavy battery. LiIon batteries are quite
light. What's not light is the PM generator/alternator required to
charge the batteries.
2. I don't know how much power would be required to do the shifting.
Google didn't find any numbers. So, my initial guess is that it would
require more than could be supplied by the typical lighting bottle
generator (about 3 watts) and would therefore be somewhat bigger.
3. Wireless gear shifting might be tolerable. I'm not going to crash
because they missed or delayed a shift. However, wireless braking is
another story. I would want highly reliable braking, possibly with a
backup. I wouldn't trust the brakes to wireless. Too many things to
go wrong. However, a wired electric brake is fine.

>Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
>handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
>deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?

No. Piezo just doesn't generator enough power. It also generates
high voltages, which would need to be down converted to semiconductor
levels. However, a common Lithium button cell, as found in all
automotive key fobs should work.

The detailer mounted generator is possible, but the added wires might
be a bit messy. I don't think the little wheel is big enough to house
a big enough generator.

>What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
>to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
>using a coil?

Well, there's plenty of power available on the drive chain. The
problem is that it's there only when I'm cranking. Charging or
generating would stop if a were coasting or braking. That's why
lighting generators don't use a chain drive.

I suppose the chain could be magnetized to provide power. However,
since the pickup coil would only cover a small part of the chain, the
power generating capabilities would be limited. Keeping the chain
centered in the pickup coil might also be a problem as there is no
place on the frame where the chain position isn't a moving target.

>How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
>and it just happens?

It's possible, but I suspect it would not be sufficiently reliable.
Besides, it would require a helmet full of sensors, and that might
precipitate another endless helmet discussion.

>It all sounds so complicated and fragile.

It isn't really that complicated. Once you have power, wire, and a
microprocessor, the added utility will more than compensate for any
added complexity.

>I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>gear cables as long as I can.

Please don't hang yourself. This is the only on topic and intelligent
question in this newsgroup for many weeks. You are needed.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:48:42 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Derailleurs from 1940 can still be fixed by a good mechanic. Anybody
>got spare electrical parts for a Mavic Zap? I doubt it. It would be
>easier to find spare Betamax parts.

<http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mektronic>
<http://velosniper.blogspot.com/2008/11/mavic-mektronic-new-complete-set.html>
<http://bikerecyclery.com/mavic-mektronic-electronic-shifting-drivetrain-nib.html>
<http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/mavic-mektronic-group-set-parts-nos-129921356>
<http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1407580>

Reparability could become a problem. In theory, the parts should be
available for the life of the bicycle, which could easily be 50 years.
The electronic devices of today would look a quaint to people in 50
years, as vacuum tube electronics looks to us today. Presumably, in
the future, the factory could offer a bolt-on or replacement device
that serves the same function, but using more up to date electronics.
However, that's doubtful in todays throw away society.

My crystal ball isn't very clear, and my future technology projections
often miss the mark. Therefore, I like to refer to this document when
I'm told something can't be done or won't work:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>

[Dan O]

Beat me to it :-)

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 12:17:42 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Can you still buy a car with mechanical window cranks? They are long
gone over here. It is a Sedan? That is air con, radio, center lock,
electric windows and auto-transmission standard.

[Ronko]

In article <jt3bgc$m0$1...@dont-email.me>,
james.e...@gmail.com says...

>
>
>So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>switches and a battery. But what's next?
>

>Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>
>Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make
wireless
>gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>
>Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
>handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
>deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>
>What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be
used
>to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC
current
>using a coil?
>
>How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift
up"
>and it just happens?
>

>It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>gear cables as long as I can.
>

>--
>J "Not and early adopter" S.

Bluetooth

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Jul 6, 1:13 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com>

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

If they perfect the spray on battery then power may not be a problem
any longer. This link mentions a T-shirt that may be developed that
may be used to recharge a cell phone. The other material might be able
to coat the bicycle frame so that the frame itsel becomes the battery.

http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Multiformat/iPhone+4S/news.asp?c=42749

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Jul 6, 1:36 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:48:42 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>

> <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Derailleurs from 1940 can still be fixed by a good mechanic.  Anybody
> >got spare electrical parts for a Mavic Zap?  I doubt it.  It would be
> >easier to find spare Betamax parts.
>
> <http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mektronic>

> <http://velosniper.blogspot.com/2008/11/mavic-mektronic-new-complete-s...>
> <http://bikerecyclery.com/mavic-mektronic-electronic-shifting-drivetra...>
> <http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/mavic-mektronic-group-set-parts...>

> <http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1407580>
>
> Reparability could become a problem.  In theory, the parts should be
> available for the life of the bicycle, which could easily be 50 years.
> The electronic devices of today would look a quaint to people in 50
> years, as vacuum tube electronics looks to us today.  Presumably, in
> the future, the factory could offer a bolt-on or replacement device
> that serves the same function, but using more up to date electronics.
> However, that's doubtful in todays throw away society.
>
> My crystal ball isn't very clear, and my future technology projections
> often miss the mark.  Therefore, I like to refer to this document when
> I'm told something can't be done or won't work:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I like this one from that link:

"The ordinary 'horseless carriage' is at present a luxury for the
wealthy;
and although its price will probably fall in the future, it will
never, of
course, come into as common use as the bicycle."
-- Literary Digest, 1899


Here's another good one to which the Japanese replied: You want to bet
on that?

"As far as sinking a ship with a bomb is concerned, you just can't do
it."
-- Rear Admiral Clark Woodward, 1939

Cheers

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:46:32 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>If they perfect the spray on battery then power may not be a problem
>any longer. This link mentions a T-shirt that may be developed that
>may be used to recharge a cell phone. The other material might be able
>to coat the bicycle frame so that the frame itsel becomes the battery.
>
>http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/Multiformat/iPhone+4S/news.asp?c=42749

Ummm... some electric bicycles already have the battery inside the
frame:
<http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/battery-in-frame-electric-bike.html>

Perhaps an aluminum air battery?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_batteries>
The only problem is that your aluminum frame will slowly oxidize away
as the battery is depleted.

You can also take a pile of alternating nickels and pennies, insert
them in a tube full of salt water, and produce a usable battery that
will fit inside a frame tube. The advantage is that if you don't need
the power, you an extract the coins and spend them as needed.
Recharging consists of riding to the bank, replacing the coins, and
then taking a plunge in the nearest ocean to replenish the
electrolyte.

The water bottle battery has been available for lighting for quite
some time, but that's too easy. Perhaps building a spiral wrap cell
into a water bottle size battery might be useful.
<http://www.toyotaoffroad.com/Articles/Reviews/Optima/Optima.htm>

Then, there's Gruber Assist:
<http://dvice.com/archives/2009/05/gruber-assist-e.php>
<http://www.electricbike.com/gruber-assist/>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 09:09:39 -0700, Ronko <ronkr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Bluetooth

Easily jammed both intentionally and accidentally by other users of
the 2.4GHz band. That includes wi-fi, cordless phones, remote
controls, wireless video, municipal wi-fi, etc.

There are ways to obtain wireless reliability (e.g. redundancy,
frequency diversity, spatial diversity, UWB, etc), but BT is not the
answer.

[Frank Krygowski]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2012 16:16:38 +1000, James<james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>
> That should be obvious. A fully automatic bicycle. Such a machine
> would not be for you or me. We're both accustomed to shifting to the
> point where it is almost unconscious. However, there are a great
> number of individuals that are not so familiar with the art of
> shifting. I've seen bicycles with the detailer cables rusted in
> place. For these people, a fully automatic transmission would be
> quite useful.
>
> For electric brakes, the obvious next step is to mimic the automobile
> technology and add anti-skid ABS braking systems. However, that's not
> the main advantage. Electric brakes are force multipliers that can
> make it possible for someone with a weak grip or misadjusted calipers,
> to stop the bike.

I can see benefits to both automatic transmissions and electronically
assisted brakes. However, ISTM the benefits would be practically
limited to only those using their bikes in the most limited way.

For example: Someone riding at an enthusiast level sometimes wants to
gear down to take a hill by low gear spinning, and other times wants to
"shoot" a hill by keeping up speed, standing and powering over it in a
much higher gear. If an automatic decided to suddenly downshift in that
latter situation, it could cause a crash.

It's similar with braking. Sometimes both brakes are appropriate.
Sometimes (very low traction, gentle stop) I might choose just the rear
brake. Sometimes (very quick stop, dry pavement) I'll use the front
brake much harder than the rear. A computer doesn't have the perception
to tell the difference.

>
> Once we add the battery, wires, and microprocessor to the machine, the
> possibilities are endless. Integrated lighting system, 360 cameras,
> gyro stabilization, navigation aids, can be added once a power source
> is provided. However, I suspect that the initial exploitation will be
> less attractive. For example, not needing to shift and using push
> button brakes might translate into an excuse to yack on a cell phone
> while riding.

Another barrier would be price, of course. Some people (including those
posting here) are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a bike; but
as explained, I think those aren't the people who would benefit from
such technologies. And the people who would benefit tend to be the
people who think $150 is too much to spend on a bike.

> The battery is a problem. It won't require something as large as an
> electric bicycle battery, but a sandwich of LiIon batteries mounted on
> the inside of the frame, shouldn't be too obnoxious. Again, the frame
> should be designed to accomidate the battery.

We're all familiar with the limited life of batteries, whether
rechargeable or not. Incidentally, I was recently talking with a
friend, an electrical engineer, who was complaining that his
company-issued Blackberry had dropped from 3 days battery life to just
one day. But if he asked for a replacement, they'd probably give him an
iPhone instead, and according to him, its battery life is about one day
out of the box. And like me, he's not keen on changing systems to keep
up with the current fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[datakoll]

OH YEAH a regenerative eleccycle is mindbogling, ABS, silent, powerful...

doahna bitch abt Colorado Cyclist people supporting the developing market.

you own 9 bikes....oink. hey, buy 2 why stopm at one ?

electronic replacement modules...try the alley.

I'm typing on a $2G laptop without available Dell factory replacments, a 2006. grind your teeth Dude.

[Jay Beattie]

On Thursday, July 5, 2012 12:22:00 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, July 5, 2012 12:39:28 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> > On Jul 5, 2:16 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
> > > switches and a battery.  But what's next?
> > >

> > > Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
> > >

> > > Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
> > > gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
> > >

> > > Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
> > > handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
> > > deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
> > >

> > > What about the front deraileur I hear you ask?  Could the chain be used
> > > to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
> > > using a coil?
> > >

> > > How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
> > > and it just happens?
> > >

> > > It all sounds so complicated and fragile.  I'm gonna hang on to my SS

> > > gear cables as long as I can.
> >

> > One thing I've done over the years with lots of decisions (home
> > remodeling, work-related, car buying, etc. etc.) is to evaluate
> > features or benefits on a dollar benefit basis, asking "What would I
> > be willing to spend for that benefit?"
> >
> > The answer varies for each individual, of course. But with some bike
> > developments, the amount of benefit is greatly exaggerated. And the
> > "benefit" of simply being the first guy on the block with the new toy
> > is rarely admitted.
> >
> > What would I pay for the "benefit" of trading a perfectly functioning
> > steel cable for a wire and battery? Hmmm....
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
>

> Is "trade" the right question? I have 9 bikes. One is Shimano Di2 electronic. I did not "trade" any of my other bikes for this one. I simply "added" it to the pool. I have bikes with Campagnolo and Shimano cable shifters. Campagnolo is clearly superior. But the Shimano provides a different perspective or even advantages in a few cases. Advantage being the ability to get cassettes with huge cogs easily. Shimano Di2 is different. The front derailleur shifting is superior. Worth it? Thousands upon thousands of people pay thousands of dollars to the car company to "upgrade" the engine on a car from 4 to 6 cylinders or 6 to 8 cylinders. Many people on this forum have paid more than Di2 cost to upgrade the engine on a car/truck. Worth it?

Why is Campagnolo clearly superior? I'm not trying to be contentious, but I ride all the time with guys who have Campy or SRAM, and I have Shimano, and we all same to get to the gears we want without fuss or effort. My Ultegra 9sp is 15 or so years old and has yet to crap out, although the hoods on the levers are kind of wiped out and it rattles -- but it is still smooth.

I wouldn't want Di2 simply because it would add another level of complexity and would mean a crappy SS ride home when I forgot to charge my battery. I also can't remember the last time a shift on my cable-actuated race bike was not "good" -- even under load. That's where Di2 is supposed to excell, but that is not an area where I am having problems. And its heavier than Dura Ace. At least when you go to a six cylinder engine, you get more power. -- Jay Beattie.

[Andre Jute]

For those who haven't seen these wonders in use yet:

1. My fully automatic bike, c2002. Fully auto gershifting (not the
travesty o f "electronically assisted" shifting as on the Dura-Ace cut-
down system with a similar name). Note that it also had automatic,
electronically powered adaptive suspension. My bike didn't have the
rear suspension also available in the Cyber Nexus gruppo but it works
the same way as the front suspension on my bike. There is no battery.
What the manual call the "battery" is a capacitor in the control box.
Everything, transmission, suspension, controls, are powered by the
from hub dynamo. http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html Jeff
might like to note that the gears changing and the suspension adapting
to the terrain did not register any perceptible dips in the dyne
output to the lamp (the residual, a measure of efficiency) except in
literally the first pace of movement (after the bike had been standing
for at least two days) because the capacitor was charged within
seconds and then smoothed everything off. Elewhere I've described how
my daily ride was speeded up at least 10% by the automatic gears, from
which I concluded that the entire system, including the human
providing the electricity with his legs, was made much more efficient
by the automation. (It should be noted that all this luxury and
efficiency added only about 4oz to a fully-equipped Dutch city-sports
bike, i.e. a fast commuter or holiday tourer (Continental sense,
nothing like an American roadie imagines). I didn't manage to separate
out the contribution of the adaptive suspension at the front, but at a
guess it could be as much as a fifth to a third of the improvement;
with the auto box off, i.e. in the Dura-Ace type electronically
assisted manual shifting mode, rides over ten days were about 2-3
faster than with a comparable but strictly manual Gazelle; see
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html if you're
unfamiliar with the Dutch stadfiets. This adaptive suspension works
the opposite way to one in a car: when the bike is starting off, and
going uphill, the suspension is hard so as not to waste energy; when
the bike goes fast on the level, the suspension is soft for comfort
(softer, anyway -- Shimano misjudged their potential market and made
the suspension, in my opinion, far too hard for people who would by an
automatic bike).

2. My electrified Rohloff-hubbed bike. The quality of the Rohloff
shift when knew is best described as "High quality German agricultural
machinery". It loosens up. All the same, I decided that the available
(Australian) electronically assisted manual shift wasn't necessary.
This class of bike comes with a dynamo to drive the lamps and, and
(with additional equipment from BUMM or Tout Terrain or by DIY,
anything else you want to drive or recharge, like GPS, phone, iPad,
etc. Here it is in base spec on the day I took delivery.
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf. Here it is
turned into an electric bike; the silver bottle is the battery for the
motor in the front hub and everything is driven off it.
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html Though I don't
have a charger for a cellphone or a tablet or a GPS, because I don't
need them, the possibilities are pretty much the same (and some of the
equipment is the same) as in the hub dynamo case; the source of
charging current is merely the battery rather than a hub dynamo.

3. Frankly, like every other experienced cyclist, I think the full-
auto works to be unnecessary. But I also think that you will never get
more people cycling until derailleurs are optional. As for the
electric bike, I would have to give up cycling without the help, or
restrict it to what cardiac specialists and physiotherapists consider
suitable, and that's a recipe for frustration; better to be able to
say, "Oh, I won't staring my heart. The motor will take the strain."
Also, for commuters, it may be important that the motor will take the
sweat...

Andre Jute
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html

[Andre Jute]

BTW, so happy to something *tech* on RBT rather than endless dumb
teenager's politics and embarrassing soap opera "philosophy". --Andre
Jute

[datakoll]

the out of stock irreplaceable electronic module ?


gotta bite the module here....COMMIT !!.....

modular equipment meant for long term use age requires spare parts purchase as a hole during the point of sale.

Maybe you get a discount. hahahhaha.....

pick a distributor who does NOT drive a GT....one with kids.

[Andre Jute]

The Rule of the Early Adopter: Buy a whole gruppo as spares, even a
whole bike.

[thirty-six]

On Jul 5, 8:22 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"

What, bigger than 34? If so, please direct.

>  Shimano Di2 is different.  The front derailleur shifting is superior.

Really? I have one bike with a front derailleur, there is a 3 tooth
difference and the shifts are quick and secure whatever the load. I
very nuch doubt that shifting could possibly be superior than this. I
really don't see what I am supposedly missing, 40 years of
indoctrination on chainring selection?

[thirty-six]

Which metal goes into the tree and which goes into the ground? what
is the cell voltage and typical current available?

[thirty-six]

On Jul 5, 10:57 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/07/12 03:48, datakoll wrote:
>
> > are connecting wires durable ? what gauge ? where's the ground ? Can the LBS use a multimeter ?
>
> If it doesn't work, you'll need to replace it.  ($$)
>
> > how waterproof moving parts ?
>
> Campag EPS components have an IP67 rating.
>
> http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technologies/water-proof-ip67
>
> "The Campagnolo EPS electronic drivetrain complies with IP67
> international standards.
>
> This means that the system is able to protect its electronic components
> from dust and liquid infiltration.
>
> In order to achieve the IP67 classification, all the electronic
> components of the EPS system underwent a series of tests, which proved
> their ability to function perfectly under one meter of water for at
> least 30 minutes."

What was the rider's name?

>
> > where do we get the psare rubber grommet/cover when it falls off ?
>
> Campy will probably sell spares.  Shimano will probably demand you spend
> on a new derailleur.
>
> > WHAT'S THE POINT ?
>
> That's my point.
>
> > self powered eleccycle ?
>
> Electric scooters have been around for a while now.
>
> --
> JS.

[datakoll]

buy a distributorshipo !

lemme read your BS here ura one of the posterboys for the SF category.
I wuz thinking of emailing on ur health...change of seasons....

I bogglr over at Sonic Electronix...last fall there were 1001 Chinese backup devices.

Fidelity Electronics....

me ? Ham Radio Short Wave 6146...I'm in the Cascades on MiFi.

I fear electric windows butbutbut there were no mmanual windows....

then I took the door apart and LO ! cleaned and lubed the window device with what else Finish Line discovering electric windows ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE TWICE YEARLY CLEANING/LUBRICATION.

This is not normal.

what's normal is storebuybuy-use-trash-store-use-trash.....

ceptin' the Waterford et al

there's ura future eleccycles


we have local noise on the category eleccycle as more or less OK...'like'
eyecycle but cooler

where's the producer of the gyroscope you stand on ?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 06:34:35 +0100, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

>>"As far as sinking a ship with a bomb is concerned, you just can't do
>>it."
>> -- Rear Admiral Clark Woodward, 1939

>Wasn't he the admiral who claimed that the Tirpitz hadn't really been
>sunk, because part of her was still above water?

Dunno. I couldn't find any references to it with Google.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_H._Woodward>

A similar quote from FDR in 1922 while assistant secretary of the
Navy.
<http://books.google.com/books?id=QJBmrMW0JGYC&pg=PA126#v=onepage&q&f=false>
"the day of the battleship has not passed, and it is highly
unlikely that an airplane, or fleet of them, could ever
successfully sink a fleet of Navy vessels under battle
conditions."

Note that some of the WWII battleships had (teak) wooden decks.
<http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_are_decks_wood_on_battleships>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Doug Cimperman]

On 7/5/2012 1:16 AM, James wrote:
> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>
> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>
> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>
> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>
> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
> using a coil?
>
> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
> and it just happens?
>
> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
> gear cables as long as I can.
>

If you wanted to just get rid of the mechanical cables, you could try
wiring two servo motors together (connect all the same wires together).

I have seen people do this to make "remote" telescope focus devices, to
avoid their hand movements from vibrating the telescope by actually
touching it.
http://bellsouthpwp.com/c/h/chezrad/focuser.htm

When one servo is turned, it generates corresponding electrical signals
that will turn the other identically,, but only to the extent that the
first is turned. That is, if you turn the first 180-degrees, the second
will only turn 180 also....

[Graham]

"Doug Cimperman" <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message news:la_Jr.41880$FV6....@newsfe05.iad...

> On 7/5/2012 1:16 AM, James wrote:
>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>
>> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>>
>> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
>> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>>
>> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
>> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
>> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>>
>> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
>> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
>> using a coil?
>>
>> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
>> and it just happens?
>>
>> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>> gear cables as long as I can.

There have now been at least a couple of instances in this year's tour where the commentators have suggested that the electronic gear shifters have badly let down riders. The most obvious been Matty Goss's recent gift of a sprint to Sagan. Follow up comment seems to have been supressed I guess for obvious commercial reasons. Anyone got any bone fide evidence that the electronic shifters have failed?

Graham.

[datakoll]

one, no direct evidence only blaming...as 'it was the electrics not me' so the team, sponsor, manufacturr would immediately object, and fairly, tho to be sure the manu would stretch thge point to absurdity.

'like' how many times have you pushed the button incorrectly ?

after 100 miles....

for the commontaters to commentate, the device would:

catch on fire
explode
fall of on the street
smoke profusely

whining will not do it


mass defection would....

"Hi Phil Rim here at the uh uh uh Tour. 14 riders using electrics have shitcanned electrics for manual devices. Does this improve their performance ? We'll let you know, maybe."

[datakoll]

right, the direction we would expect. Why build it if not smoother faster ?

Is there an adaptive suspension mod for countersteering in friction reduction ?

other direction you project with owner experience ?

do you have an electric group or is electric ownership solitary at this juncture ?

reads like your bike arrived independent of an LBS if not has the LBS sold others ?

what fell off ?

did you chart your heart problem ? care to write abt it for us ?

how do you watch over the heart/bike/exercise problem today after surgery ?

Gene D

[datakoll]

I HAVE DRAWN A FINE CARTOON OF Mr Goss shackled onto the castle basement wall with 5 large men and a spider wearing black robes and hoods carrying pikes.

Mr Goss sez:

"you want me to say what, I pushed the wrong button" ?

[Andre Jute]

On Jul 8, 3:32 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> right, the direction we would expect. Why build it if not smoother faster ?

Oh dear. I was talking about several different bikes, Gene. The full
auto Trek Cyber Nexus is smoother and faster than a similar manual
Gazelle with the same gearbox and general configuration. My
electrified Utopia Kranich is a very smooth bike already in manual
form; the purpose of the electrics is to permit me to keep cycling in
the very hilly town and countryside in which I live. Both are
exceedingly successful at what they're intended to do.

> Is there an adaptive suspension mod for countersteering in friction reduction ?

Not that I know of. The adaptive suspension in my Cyber Nexus Di2 full
auto gruppo is aimed at pedalling efficiency, not anti-slip.

> other direction you project with owner experience ?

Well the full auto Cyber Nexus Di2 failed in the market. I was just
about the only person who loved it. Electric bikes are the future, but
I doubt they will be full-size bikes like mine. I think it more likely
they will be Vespa-like constructions driven by batteries.

> do you have an electric group or is electric ownership solitary at this juncture ?

I'm a member of groups in the UK and Germany, and read the US group
"endless-sphere". These groups are much larger and more active than
RBT.

> reads like your bike arrived independent of an LBS if not has the LBS sold others ?

I've now imported three different bikes from dealers on the Continent,
which is two seas and several countries away from me. The
electrification program was carried out by me with parts supplied by a
British dealer. I first specced the parts and costed them with a firm
in China, hoping to save about $2-300, but my government cracked down
on grey imports with swingeing import, dumping, sales and other taxes,
so I ordered this kit, which contained every single part in my own
specification (plus a few I didn't use), from the British dealer
instead to be sure I wasn't stuck for huge import duties. There's no
point in asking any LBS around here for help with such sophisticated
bikes. They're blacksmiths. I know vastly more about electronics than
they ever will.

> what fell off ?

Doesn't happen. When you buy a bike for BMW money from a German firm,
nothing falls off. When I build something with the best components
available, nothing falls off. This isn't the States, where they sell
you crap and it is your responsibility to make it work. Every
component on my bike carries the mark of two or usually several more
standards organisations, and my German custom bike makers, on top of
all the government testing, sends every single component for private
testing to destruction. There may be crappy parts available but they
don't reach me. The Q in the Bafang QSWXK motor I fitted stands for
special quality control for finicky European customers. Bafang has a
Swiss-based operation to design and test gear suitable for Continental
customers, and the QSWXK was one of their first babies.

> did you chart your heart problem ? care to write abt it for us ?

I used to feed my HRM data to my computer but got bored with it. Then
my Ciclosport HAC4, which recorded all this for the computer, died on
the first day after the three-year warranty and I replaced it with an
inexpensive, non-recording Sigma PC40, which ironically has lasted a
decade or so. (I don't recommend Ciclosport; their gear is overpriced
shit; I do recommend Sigma gear, which works well, lasts well, and is
very good value for money.)

> how do you watch over the heart/bike/exercise problem today after surgery ?

Same as before, actually. It turns out that I'm quite a bit fitter
than expected. I've always regulated my output not by cadence but by
my respiration rate. When my heart rate hit 80% of max, I would slow
down. What with medication and surgery, the medical team and
physiotherapists have now retuned that to a target of 72-75%. (This is
much higher than they prescribe for anyone else -- they generally want
people to exercise at about 60% -- so, if you have medical problems,
you should take specific and particular advice from qualified
personnel, not just blindly do what I do.) I also have a rower and a
Nordic air strider (which the physios don't like, as it brings up your
heart rate too fast) and I'm thinking of getting a treadmill for when
the weather is really foul. I don't see the point of having an
exercise bike when I have a pretty good real bike.

What's different now is that I pay attention to warming up and warming
down. My surgeon is a cyclist, and he mentions warmup and warm down to
me every time he sees me, and one can view my recent six weeks of
Cardiac Reeducation in the Gulag of Physiotherapy as one extended
reaffirmation of warmup and warm down.

Andre Jute

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 7/5/2012 4:51 PM, James wrote:
> I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
> pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
> changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
> like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
> chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.
>
> That would be a useful improvement - if it was made reliable and
> serviceable.

And not priced like a Swiss watch?

<http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/schlumpf/antriebe_engl.htm>

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 7/5/2012 11:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
> And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
> still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
> and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
> up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.[...]

Gee Frank, I would have thought you would have known better than to use
such an argument. That Fabian Cancellara is faster using toe clips and
straps than I am using SPuDs proves nothing about the relative
efficiency of each system, due to our drastically different power to
weigh ratios. Your grant application has been denied due to flawed
experimental design.

Furthermore, whoever claimed that "clipless systems are more efficient
than toe clips and straps? The real reason for clipless" is that one
cannot get one's foot out of clips and straps while wearing cleats and
the straps cinched down properly without bending over and manually
releasing strap tension. And of course, cleated shoes are horrible to
walk in compared to recessed clipless systems. Good riddance to clip
and straps, may they be relegated to museums.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 7/5/2012 4:57 PM, James wrote:
> On 06/07/12 03:48, datakoll wrote:
>> are connecting wires durable ? what gauge ? where's the ground ? Can
>> the LBS use a multimeter ?
>
> If it doesn't work, you'll need to replace it. ($$)
>
>> how waterproof moving parts ?
>
> Campag EPS components have an IP67 rating.
>
> http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technologies/water-proof-ip67
>
> "The Campagnolo EPS electronic drivetrain complies with IP67
> international standards.
>
> This means that the system is able to protect its electronic components
> from dust and liquid infiltration.
>
> In order to achieve the IP67 classification, all the electronic
> components of the EPS system underwent a series of tests, which proved
> their ability to function perfectly under one meter of water for at
> least 30 minutes."
>

>> where do we get the psare rubber grommet/cover when it falls off ?
>
> Campy will probably sell spares. Shimano will probably demand you spend
> on a new derailleur.
>
>> WHAT'S THE POINT ?
>
> That's my point.
>
>> self powered eleccycle ?
>
> Electric scooters have been around for a while now.
>

And electric fork-lifts, electric submarines, electric railroad
locomotives, electric drag lines, etc, all of which need to meet high
reliability standards.

[Andre Jute]

On Jul 8, 6:41 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 7/5/2012 4:51 PM, James wrote:
>
> > I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
> > pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
> > changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable.  For that I'd
> > like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
> > chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.
>
> > That would be a useful improvement - if it was made reliable and
> > serviceable.
>
> And not priced like a Swiss watch?
>
> <http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/schlumpf/antriebe_engl.htm>

Two gears for HOW MUCH?

Makes a 14-speed Rohloff HGB took positively cheap!

Andre Jute

[thirty-six]

On Jul 8, 6:51 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

Clips and straps are most appropriate when wearing normal leather
soled shoes, ones that are suitable for walking in. Cleats with clips
and straps are most suitable for racing, particularly when sprinting.
They offer a light weight and most economical solution for many riders
as there is no need for special riding shoes. Rat-trap pedals don't
get flustered with clay and grit.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

But cleats and clips are terrible if you have frequent unplanned
dismounts, such as riding a MTB on technical trails.

[thirty-six]

On Jul 8, 12:19 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

Then you are walking, not riding and the most appropriate shoe is that
which is most appropriate for the ground that has to be walked on. If
that's a pair of wellies, so be it. Change back to something more
appropriate when conditions allow.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

No, I am talking about low-speed loss of balance, say when climbing on a
loose surface, and loosing rear wheel traction. With SPuDs or similar,
you un-clip, put a foot down, and restart riding, sometimes after a
*short* walk to a place with better traction. With clips, straps, and
cleats, you would be lying on the ground, still fighting to get your
feet free from the pedals.

[thirty-six]

On Jul 8, 2:16 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

That's usually where suplesse pays off big time for cyclo-cross.
There are four muscular inputs to each leg for each cycle of the
cranks, getting each phase at equal torque is key when climbing loose
or slippy surfaces. That and a reasonable gear ratio.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 7/5/2012 11:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
>> And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
>> still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
>> and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
>> up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.[...]
>
> Gee Frank, I would have thought you would have known better than to use
> such an argument. That Fabian Cancellara is faster using toe clips and
> straps than I am using SPuDs proves nothing about the relative
> efficiency of each system, due to our drastically different power to
> weigh ratios. Your grant application has been denied due to flawed
> experimental design.
>
> Furthermore, whoever claimed that "clipless systems are more efficient
> than toe clips and straps?

I think it was every person who ever told me I should get clipless.
They didn't speak literally of efficiency, but they used terms like
"It's so much easier" and "You'll climb hills so much faster," etc. Yet
I haven't seen evidence of that benefit.

> The real reason for clipless" is that one
> cannot get one's foot out of clips and straps while wearing cleats and
> the straps cinched down properly without bending over and manually
> releasing strap tension.

FWIW, I almost never have my straps cinched down so tightly that I can't
jerk my foot out backwards.

> And of course, cleated shoes are horrible to
> walk in compared to recessed clipless systems.

I use flat-bottomed touring shoes.

> Good riddance to clip and straps, may they be relegated to museums.

Send yours to me, please. Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
find another set or two.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Op 8-7-2012 17:49, Frank Krygowski schreef:

> Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 7/5/2012 11:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
>>> And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
>>> still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
>>> and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
>>> up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.[...]
>>
>> Gee Frank, I would have thought you would have known better than to use
>> such an argument. That Fabian Cancellara is faster using toe clips and
>> straps than I am using SPuDs proves nothing about the relative
>> efficiency of each system, due to our drastically different power to
>> weigh ratios. Your grant application has been denied due to flawed
>> experimental design.
>>
>> Furthermore, whoever claimed that "clipless systems are more efficient
>> than toe clips and straps?
>
> I think it was every person who ever told me I should get clipless. They
> didn't speak literally of efficiency, but they used terms like "It's so
> much easier" and "You'll climb hills so much faster," etc. Yet I haven't
> seen evidence of that benefit.

You seem to be the only one that meets people/idiots that make these
claims. I'm only meeting people who changed from platforms/clips to
clipless and say they wished that they had made the change much sooner
and never go back. They don't talk about performance but of ease of use
of clipless.

> Send yours to me, please. Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
> find another set or two.

The world has moved one Frank. If your wear out your clips buy clipless
as a replacement, even for you there are no disadvantages.

Lou

[datakoll]

interviewed several new to locked in pedaling riders: Learning process took some bruising. The group slower than normal.

I fell on the street once (more than once off course) when my right leg went thru the triangle as I foot avoided a surprise lane ending in the choice of Intercoastal or guardrail butt.

[Dan O]

On Jul 8, 8:49 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 7/5/2012 11:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >> Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
> >> And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
> >> still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
> >> and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
> >> up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.[...]

Of course they follow you. You always know the right thing to do, and
everyone would be lost without your wisdom, skill, and bravery :-)

>
> > Gee Frank, I would have thought you would have known better than to use
> > such an argument. That Fabian Cancellara is faster using toe clips and
> > straps than I am using SPuDs proves nothing about the relative
> > efficiency of each system, due to our drastically different power to
> > weigh ratios. Your grant application has been denied due to flawed
> > experimental design.
>
> > Furthermore, whoever claimed that "clipless systems are more efficient
> > than toe clips and straps?
>
> I think it was every person who ever told me I should get clipless.
> They didn't speak literally of efficiency, but they used terms like
> "It's so much easier" and "You'll climb hills so much faster," etc. Yet
> I haven't seen evidence of that benefit.
>

These are the "folks [you] normally ride with"? That's just a lot of
cluelessness from people who don't really Ride Bike - unless they
further explain the efficiency by recognizing the contribution of
consistent, precise foot placement - not increased power to the
pedals.

For me it's the convenience of not having to think about correct foot
placement, and never slipping off the pedal a secondary benefit. The
tiny bit of additional power I may apply against the cleat is
incidental and marginally significant at best.

> > The real reason for clipless" is that one
>
> > cannot get one's foot out of clips and straps while wearing cleats and
> > the straps cinched down properly without bending over and manually
> > releasing strap tension.
>
> FWIW, I almost never have my straps cinched down so tightly that I can't
> jerk my foot out backwards.
>

Wait a sec' - these folks are claiming clipless is nore efficient that
toe straps?

> > And of course, cleated shoes are horrible to
> > walk in compared to recessed clipless systems.
>
> I use flat-bottomed touring shoes.
>

SPD is great!

> > Good riddance to clip and straps, may they be relegated to museums.
>
> Send yours to me, please. Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
> find another set or two.
>

To each his own; more power to you. Enjoy the ride!

[Frank Krygowski]

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op 8-7-2012 17:49, Frank Krygowski schreef:

>> Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
>> find another set or two.
>
> The world has moved one Frank. If your wear out your clips buy clipless
> as a replacement, even for you there are no disadvantages.

I can ride every bike I own wearing every pair of shoes I own. Well,
except my work boots, I guess - they're limited to the bikes with plain
flat pedals.

Changing that would be a disadvantage.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Jul 8, 11:49 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

Clips and toe-straps are something I prefer on my road bikes too. I
can dismount and explore whenever theurge strikes.I can also remove my
foot from the pedal at anytime no matter where the pedal is in the
revolution. I tried many clipless road pedals and even tried the mtb
type. I found it very difficult to clip into the mtb type on the forst
attempt and almost always had to move my foot a bit for the cleat to
engage. Also, if the foot was at the 12 oclock position or close to it
disengageing was iffy it not impossible before falling over. I do ot
have that problem with clips and toe-straps. Another great thing about
staps is that I can wear any shoe I own and jump on any of my
bikcycles and go without having to have special shoes.

Cheers

[Lou Holtman]

Op zondag 8 juli 2012 21:32:12 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski het volgende:

So you would give up that advantage if clipless would be more efficient?

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Op zondag 8 juli 2012 22:01:11 UTC+2 schreef Sir Ridesalot het volgende:

I find it hard to believe that someone could not learn to operate a clip less pedal within half an hour.

Lou

[James]

On 06/07/12 23:06, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jul 2012 12:17:42 +1000, James<james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:

>>>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>>>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>>>> gear cables as long as I can.
>>>

>>> It is not complicated at all if you compare it with other stuff you
>> use without thinkng about it. You are getting old James. You have tio
>> watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
>> head to buy or use anything.
>>>
>>
>> Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
>> cassettes and outboard BB bearings. It's not like I'm against
>> innovation where I see real benefit to me.
>>
>> It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
>> actuators replaced. 3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. My
>> mechanical door locks are still fine. I like DL (Distributed Locking)
>> as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.
>
>
> Can you still buy a car with mechanical window cranks? They are long
> gone over here. It is a Sedan? That is air con, radio, center lock,
> electric windows and auto-transmission standard.
>

1998 TJ Wrangler hard top. Produced until 2006.

Has air con, radio and airbags.

Does not have elec. windows or electronic door locks.

Mine has a manual transmission because I don't like auto transmission
and neither does my wife.

--
JS.

[James]

On 08/07/12 15:41, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 7/5/2012 4:51 PM, James wrote:
>> I don't see a need for improvement on what's existing - except as Chalo
>> pointed out a while ago, that the front deraileur method of gear
>> changing is very primitive and not always 100% reliable. For that I'd
>> like an internally geared hub that doesn't weigh any more than a
>> chainring + front deraileur + a few chain links.
>>
>> That would be a useful improvement - if it was made reliable and
>> serviceable.
>
> And not priced like a Swiss watch?
>
> <http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/schlumpf/antriebe_engl.htm>
>

Correct. And I don't think the BB is the right place for a set of
gears. They need to be too big and heavy to properly cope with the
torque produced.

Better to let the chain ring and sprocket reduce that by more than half.

But that's just my humble opinion.

--
JS.

[AMuzi]

We both concur with Sharp's analysis on that.
He wrote his in 1899.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

On 06/07/12 14:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> On Jul 5, 10:17 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 05/07/12 16:39, Lou Holtman wrote:> Op donderdag 5 juli 2012 08:16:38 UTC+2 schreef James het volgende:
>> You are getting old James. You have tio
>> watch out not to become a second 'Frank'. Nobody point a gun to your
>> head to buy or use anything.
>>
>> Let's not forget, I love innovations like clipless pedals, ergo levers,
>> cassettes and outboard BB bearings. It's not like I'm against
>> innovation where I see real benefit to me.
>

> Nor am I, although I may want to see more "real benefit" than you do.
> And it can be hard to separate the real benefit from the hype. I
> still don't use clipless pedals or outboard BB bearings, for example;
> and I notice that all the folks I normally ride with usually follow me
> up the hills, despite their claims of greater efficiency.

The change from a cartridge BB to outboard bearings was very noticeable.
Not that it made me any faster, but;

a) the BB axle is held far more rigid and front derailleur rub is a
thing of the past.

b) the bearings in my Campy Ultra Torque BB have lasted 4-5 times longer
than those in Campy or Shimano cartridge BBs that I've destroyed in the
past. (4-5 years compared with 1 year that is.)

c) the bearings are easily replaceable. Those from the cartridge BB era
were replaceable, but not so easily in my experience, and the cups wore
out faster, making the repair less effective.

>> It cost a friend $300 per door to have the electronic door lock
>> actuators replaced. 3 out of 4 doors went faulty over a short time. My
>> mechanical door locks are still fine. I like DL (Distributed Locking)
>> as opposed to Central Locking, and manual window winders in my car.
>

> To me, one of the biggest problems with electronic anything is the
> lack of repairability. Mechanical systems I can usually fix with
> tools I own, using homemade parts or baling wire if necessary.
> Electronic part failures generally mean buying a replacement, if I'm
> "lucky" enough that the device I have is still fashionable enough to
> be on the market.

Yes and no. On the weekend I repaired the "clock spring" in my Jeep.
Inside the "clock spring" housing, it is essentially a coil of ribbon
cable that connects the stationary wiring loom behind the steering
wheel, to the front of the steering wheel for the air bag and horn. It
is marked "not serviceable" and supposedly must be replaced. A second
hand replacement would cost $120.

I bet I could buy a length of ribbon cable to replace the whole length
if necessary, but it was broken only a few inches from one end. I was
able to clean the insulation off the end of the ribbon cable and solder
it on to the connector and reassemble it. Now the airbag warning light
on the dash is no longer lit, and the horn works again.

> Derailleurs from 1940 can still be fixed by a good mechanic. Anybody
> got spare electrical parts for a Mavic Zap? I doubt it. It would be
> easier to find spare Betamax parts.

The possibility of a 1940's derailleur being "fixed" would also depend
on the level of damage and wear - not only the availability of spare parts.

--
JS.

[James]

On 09/07/12 01:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> I think it was every person who ever told me I should get clipless. They
> didn't speak literally of efficiency, but they used terms like "It's so
> much easier" and "You'll climb hills so much faster," etc. Yet I haven't
> seen evidence of that benefit.

I like not loosing the feeling in my toes, which is required to not pull
a foot. And I like not having to reach to loosen the strap before stopping.

Not loosing the feeling in ones toes may actually have some performance
benefit. Better circulation. Less discomfort to contend with.

--
JS.

[James]

SPD pedals often have provision for flats on one side and cleats on the
other.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5937

--
JS.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Gave them away. Besides, I think they were Wellgo with ABS clips and
nylon straps (whatever came on my now ancient Trek 6000 MTB).

[James]

On 09/07/12 06:53, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op zondag 8 juli 2012 22:01:11 UTC+2 schreef Sir Ridesalot het volgende:

>> Clips and toe-straps are something I prefer on my road bikes too. I
>> can dismount and explore whenever theurge strikes.I can also remove my
>> foot from the pedal at anytime no matter where the pedal is in the
>> revolution. I tried many clipless road pedals and even tried the mtb
>> type. I found it very difficult to clip into the mtb type on the forst
>> attempt and almost always had to move my foot a bit for the cleat to
>> engage. Also, if the foot was at the 12 oclock position or close to it
>> disengageing was iffy it not impossible before falling over.
>
> I find it hard to believe that someone could not learn to operate a clip less pedal within half an hour.
>

It is the reason an automatic transmission in a motor vehicle has become
a "requirement".

--
JS.

[Frank Krygowski]

Based on the increase in efficiency (or lack of same) I've seen: Yes,
I've chosen to give that up, if it exists.

Nobody I ride with has demonstrated any detectable improvement when they
switched. That doesn't mean the benefit is zero, but it's certainly not
very large. To me, such a benefit isn't enough to make up for the
inconvenience of changing to specific shoes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

When I have problems with SPuDs, that is an indication that the cleat is
worn excessively and needs to be replaced.

However, I do remember someone who combined SPuD cleats with almost, but
not quite compatible Wellgo pedals with very poor results.

[James]

On 08/07/12 04:13, Graham wrote:
>
> "Doug Cimperman"<dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message news:la_Jr.41880$FV6....@newsfe05.iad...

>> On 7/5/2012 1:16 AM, James wrote:
>>> So they've replaced SS cables and gear levers with electrical cables,
>>> switches and a battery. But what's next?
>>>

>>> Those cables and the battery are still a pain.
>>>
>>> Could each device generate enough of it's own charge to make wireless
>>> gear shift with no need to carry heavy batteries?
>>>
>>> Could they use piezoelectricity to power a transmitter in the
>>> handlebars, and a miniature dynamo on the jockey wheel of the rear
>>> deraileur to power the receiver and gear shift mech?
>>>
>>> What about the front deraileur I hear you ask? Could the chain be used
>>> to modulate a static (permanent) magnetic field and pickup AC current
>>> using a coil?
>>>
>>> How about a helmet with mind sensors that allow us to think "shift up"
>>> and it just happens?

>>>
>>> It all sounds so complicated and fragile. I'm gonna hang on to my SS
>>> gear cables as long as I can.
>

> There have now been at least a couple of instances in this year's
> tour where the commentators have suggested that the electronic gear
> shifters have badly let down riders. The most obvious been Matty
> Goss's recent gift of a sprint to Sagan. Follow up comment seems to
> have been supressed I guess for obvious commercial reasons. Anyone
> got any bone fide evidence that the electronic shifters have failed?
>

Thanks for posting that, Graham. I saw the footage and heard the
comments also, but cannot find much written on the subject, except that
he had some problems with his gears.

--
JS.

[Frank Krygowski]

James wrote:
> On 06/07/12 14:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> To me, one of the biggest problems with electronic anything is the
>> lack of repairability. Mechanical systems I can usually fix with
>> tools I own, using homemade parts or baling wire if necessary.
>> Electronic part failures generally mean buying a replacement, if I'm
>> "lucky" enough that the device I have is still fashionable enough to
>> be on the market.
>
> Yes and no. On the weekend I repaired the "clock spring" in my Jeep.
> Inside the "clock spring" housing, it is essentially a coil of ribbon
> cable that connects the stationary wiring loom behind the steering
> wheel, to the front of the steering wheel for the air bag and horn. It
> is marked "not serviceable" and supposedly must be replaced. A second
> hand replacement would cost $120.
>
> I bet I could buy a length of ribbon cable to replace the whole length
> if necessary, but it was broken only a few inches from one end. I was
> able to clean the insulation off the end of the ribbon cable and solder
> it on to the connector and reassemble it. Now the airbag warning light
> on the dash is no longer lit, and the horn works again.

I understand. My 1972 BMW motorcycle had each of its thumb switches
(right = starter and turn signals, left = horn and high beam) go bad,
one at a time, three separate times. The first time (shortly after I
bought the very used bike) I simply bought a replacement. The next two
times I disassembled, using reading glasses to see the tiny parts, and
did detail soldering. Once I even rebuilt the internal board with
epoxy, probably stronger than stock.

However, strictly speaking I'd consider that electrical work, not
electronics. If that switch had a microprocessor, I'd probably be out
of luck.

(P.S. I did disassemble the starter relay on that bike and alter the
transistor circuit to cure the BMW /5 "cricket" problem. That's
electronic, but involves only one transistor, which I can handle.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Me three.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

>[...]

I would have ditched all that stuff for standard Japanese switch gear.
Operating the throttle and turn signal with the same hand is an
inherently bad set-up.

Note that in the last couple of years, every redesigned Beemer now has a
single switch by the *left* grip for the turn signals.

[Dan O]

On Jul 8, 3:24 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op zondag 8 juli 2012 21:32:12 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski het volgende:
> >> Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> Op 8-7-2012 17:49, Frank Krygowski schreef:
> >>>> Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
> >>>> find another set or two.
>
> >>> The world has moved one Frank. If your wear out your clips buy clipless
> >>> as a replacement, even for you there are no disadvantages.
>
> >> I can ride every bike I own wearing every pair of shoes I own. Well,
> >> except my work boots, I guess - they're limited to the bikes with plain
> >> flat pedals.
>
> >> Changing that would be a disadvantage.
>
> > So you would give up that advantage if clipless would be more efficient?
>
> Based on the increase in efficiency (or lack of same) I've seen: Yes,
> I've chosen to give that up, if it exists.
>
> Nobody I ride with has demonstrated any detectable improvement when they
> switched.

There's that word: "detectable". I thought you suggested they all
raved about them. Who is doing the detecting, and what "improvement"
are they looking for exactly. (Of course, it sounds like your riding
buddies are Larry, Fred, his brother Fred, and his other brother
Fred.)

I repeat: The benefit of clipless pedals is not being able to apply
more power to the pedal cycle; it is consistent, precise foot
placement without ever having to think about it. (Admittedly, you may
not appreciate this as much if you don't at least occasionally get
radical.) ISTM that this will *necessarily* result in better overall
efficiency, but every efficiency is not measured in lap times.

> That doesn't mean the benefit is zero, but it's certainly not
> very large.

Says the guy who doesn't use them.

> To me, such a benefit isn't enough to make up for the
> inconvenience of changing to specific shoes.
>

Ah, but the shimano shoes are pretty nice shoes; and it's an excuse to
buy new shoes :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jul 8, 8:41 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 3:24 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Based on the increase in efficiency (or lack of same) I've seen: Yes,
> > I've chosen to give that up, if it exists.
>
> > Nobody I ride with has demonstrated any detectable improvement when they
> > switched.
>
> There's that word:  "detectable".  I thought you suggested they all
> raved about them.  Who is doing the detecting, and what "improvement"
> are they looking for exactly.

They are detecting that they are much faster. I'm detecting that
they're not.

Some people detect that they are much faster on red bikes, too. I
don't use those either.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2012 18:24:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:

>Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Op zondag 8 juli 2012 21:32:12 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski het volgende:
>>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> Op 8-7-2012 17:49, Frank Krygowski schreef:
>>>>> Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals? I'd love to
>>>>> find another set or two.
>>>>
>>>> The world has moved one Frank. If your wear out your clips buy clipless
>>>> as a replacement, even for you there are no disadvantages.
>>>
>>> I can ride every bike I own wearing every pair of shoes I own. Well,
>>> except my work boots, I guess - they're limited to the bikes with plain
>>> flat pedals.
>>>
>>> Changing that would be a disadvantage.
>>
>> So you would give up that advantage if clipless would be more efficient?
>
>Based on the increase in efficiency (or lack of same) I've seen: Yes,
>I've chosen to give that up, if it exists.
>

Actually Frank, the clipless pedals ARE more efficient.

With Clips one first needs to kick the pedal to get it level; insert
the foot and then reach down and tighten the strap - three distinct
actions.

With modern double sided clipless one just jams the foot in the pedal.

One action as apposed to three. :-)

[Dan O]

On Jul 8, 6:53 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 8, 8:41 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 8, 3:24 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Based on the increase in efficiency (or lack of same) I've seen: Yes,
> > > I've chosen to give that up, if it exists.
>
> > > Nobody I ride with has demonstrated any detectable improvement when they
> > > switched.
>
> > There's that word: "detectable". I thought you suggested they all
> > raved about them. Who is doing the detecting, and what "improvement"
> > are they looking for exactly.
>
> They are detecting that they are much faster. I'm detecting that
> they're not.
>

Where *do* you find these folks? OTOH, you could be wrong (gasp!)

(Notice how your edits and thread drift offers no clue to what we're
talking about.)

[datakoll]

hard to believe hard to beleive hard to....translated from the Dutch ?

ER is filled to the hard to believe ceiling with riders learning to ride clipped in.

another pro euroathlete.

I am promised several video's of Tour riders geting up from an entanglment only to step thru the triangle n go down again.

I am sure if we lookhard enough we can find a Tour type trying to unclip while riding into under a bus.

absolutes are an evil here

[Chalo]

John B. wrote:
>
> Actually Frank, the clipless pedals ARE more efficient.
>
> With Clips one first needs to kick the pedal to get it level; insert
> the foot and then reach down and tighten the strap - three distinct
> actions.
>
> With modern double sided clipless one just jams the foot in the pedal.
>
> One action as apposed to three. :-)

Or opposed to zero actions for flat pedals.

Most people are limited enough by their cardiovascular capacity that
they can't make any more continuous or average power by being attached
to their pedals, but being attached does harm their form.

Because what works for professional racers /must obviously work for
everyone/, many people of very ordinary or even subordinary
cardiovascular capacity are convinced that tacking their feet down
will help. And it does, to the extent that it disguises their
uncoordinated pedal strokes. Oh well.

Chalo

[thirty-six]

It does help to hold the feet attatched to fashionably long cranks.
A genuine suitability of crank length is typically not on the mind of
those who rave about clipless pedals. The exception being less than
5% of racers who advance to higher levels, and then they may actually
think about what is the most appropriate crank length for themselves,
but it's likely that they wont progress with overlength cranks.
If 6.1/2" cranks were the norm as was common in British Isles 50
years ago then more people here would enjoy cycling today on a daily
basis as they did back then, rather than foisting on 175mm cranks to
anyone with sporting pretensions and the bike being used at the most
of once a week.
One of the difficulties is in racing, rules demand that cranks no
shorter than 165mm be used for rollers. There follows an assumption
that road cranks should be longer and that track bikes should use the
same as road bikes if the banking permits. It's all A/T, there is no
magic crank length. Crank length should be chosen on what remains
comfortable day after day, week after week.

The alternative to appropriate crank length is to accept or choose
overlength cranks and tie feet to pedals for all riding. You might
also want special shoe inserts to correct leg length and rotation and
pay a weekly visit to a chiropracter. Being so special, you will
probably need to change handlebars.because of back pain. ;-)

The starting point for choosing crank length should be 1/5 of leg
length, measured from crotch to floor. This should be treated as a
maximum until one has the experience of a tour of at least 10 days
continual riding and two years general experience. Then one will have
the experience to choose wisely for oneself. If one can't ride flat
pedals then the cranks are likely too long.

[thirty-six]

On Jul 9, 7:06 am, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> considered Sun, 08 Jul

> I use them for the benefit in foot retention.
> The performance off the bike isn't much of an issue for me, as I can't
> walk.

This can be self-perpetuating as the lack of heavy muscular effort
means that the lymphatic ducts become stagnant, which may lead to
nerve compression and venous collapse. Lymphatic fluid is an
emulsion and so we must eat fats and drink plenty of clean water with
salt on a daily basis to maintain (or correct) our lymphatic system.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

I know several people who are now running cranks from 110 to 125-mm in
length.

[thirty-six]

On Jul 9, 11:40 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

I was thinking of trying 5.1/2" (142mm) or 150mm for my (regular)
bicycle. I have a 32" ish inside leg length. I guess those people
you write of are riders of recumbents?

[John B.]

You are correct in a strictly mechanical sense. I find that clipless,
or clips for that matter, give me a sense of having my feet attached
to the pedals as apposed to wiggling all over the place. While that
may, or may not, increase my pedaling effectiveness it does make me
feel more secure. Worth something.

[thirty-six]

Try using shoes with rubber on their soles. ;-)

[DirtRoadie]

On Jul 8, 9:49 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:

> Got any Lyotard Mod. 23 pedals?  I'd love to
> find another set or two.

Yup, two sets. I liked them, but they were permanently retired to the
junk box about 25 years ago when better options became available.
They make no sense anymore.
If the goal is to able to ride with non-cycling-specific shoes,
platform pedals WITHOUT clips would be the way to go.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=114

DR

[DirtRoadie]

On Jul 8, 7:53 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some people detect that they are much faster on red bikes, too.  I
> don't use those either.

Perhaps. I can unequivocally state that the fastest bike[1] I have
ever owned was red.

So can you identify even ONE of these other "some people" you refer
to?

DR

[1] By maximum speed recorded by cyclometer - the fact that it was a
tandem may have also factored in.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jul 9, 3:32 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Because what works for professional racers /must obviously work for
> everyone/, many people of very ordinary or even subordinary
> cardiovascular capacity are convinced that tacking their feet down
> will help.

Heck, it's obvious that what works for professional racers must work
for everyone. That's unassailable dogma, isn't it?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I've read claims that foot attachment of some sort is a safety
advantage - that, supposedly, crashes are more likely from a foot
slipping off than from a pedal or toe clip not releasing. I think the
difference would be negligible, though. I've seen plenty of non-
release topples, but I remember seeing only one slip-off fall, and
that was very unusual: some pretty extreme mountain biking by a guy
with flat pedals.

Having said that, I prefer using toe clips and straps, but I keep the
straps loose except for high intensity rides. The toe clips do make
me feel more secure, and I can get into the pedal easier than people
can clip into their so-called "clipless" pedals. Lyotard Mod. 23s are
wonderful that way.

- Frank Krygowski