Here's a problem for engineers: How to make a paper bike

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

(This topic is loosely inspired by a program I heard on NPR last
evening)

The topic was INNOVATION. They throw lots of problems at engineers and
they must come up with the solution. One problem was how to make a
bike out of paper. They must be creative and "join the dots," a phrase
the kept popping up. The engineers were celebrated as the smartest
people on Earth and they spoke about America being the mecca for them.
I really don't know how the paper bike was made, but I have another
pressing problem for them, one that may radically change the mode of
transportation in America.

My question is how to make a bike go from one side of town to the
other. Their approach, so far, has been to do a little stretch of bike
lane here and there, but they never connect them. Get it? They never
connect the dots!

I've seen bamboo bikes coming out of Africa, so they are probably the
best engineers. They may also use the bicycle more than Americans, so
they are the smartest. By contrast, bike facilities and pedestrian
facilities in my area are the dumbest in the world. You know why? Just
because our engineers are doing a 9 to 5 job and because our
politicians don't expect them to find solutions for pedestrians and
cyclists.

This is a motto for engineers:

"THE REVOLUTION IS ABOUT SOLUTIONS"


------------------------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

[thirty-six]

On Apr 9, 4:15 pm, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

Frank says "draw a free-body diagram" for proving the unatainable.
He's an idiot and he teaches this idocy.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
Cruiser Philosopher" <comandan...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The topic was INNOVATION. They throw lots of problems at engineers and
>they must come up with the solution. One problem was how to make a
>bike out of paper. They must be creative and "join the dots," a phrase
>the kept popping up.

The TV version of innovation is for entertainment and usually involves
doing something stupid or dangerous. If it were Mythbusters, it would
be a bicycle made from duct tape.

If built using conventional frame geometry, the load requirements of
the frame will make a paper or cardboard frame unrealistically fat. As
the material becomes weaker, the tube diameter necessary to carry the
mass increases. For example, a steel frame uses fairly small diameter
tubing, aluminum somewhat larger, and plastic even larger. Cardboard
would be huge. (This is also the basic problem with my inflatable
bicycle idea). When the cardboard absorbs moisture, the strength
drops further and probably will precipitate a collapse.

>The engineers were celebrated as the smartest
>people on Earth and they spoke about America being the mecca for them.

That's a problem with engineers. Throw them a problem and they will
try to solve it, never questioning whether the problem is worth
solving in the first place. Duz the world really need a paper
bicycle?

>I really don't know how the paper bike was made, but I have another
>pressing problem for them, one that may radically change the mode of
>transportation in America.

Cardboard tubing frame:
<http://www.only1egg-productions.org/AltSci/SREF/ShorelineRenewableEnergyFair.htm>
"This was an unexpected exhibit created by the students of
Shoreline Community College. Using only readily available
cardboard tubes and pressed cardboard sheets scavenged around
town, they created this amazing Paper Bicycle! "
That was in 2006.

>My question is how to make a bike go from one side of town to the
>other. Their approach, so far, has been to do a little stretch of bike
>lane here and there, but they never connect them. Get it? They never
>connect the dots!

How will a paper bicycle solve the problem of traffic management? This
sounds more like a solution looking for a problem to solve.

>I've seen bamboo bikes coming out of Africa, so they are probably the
>best engineers. They may also use the bicycle more than Americans, so
>they are the smartest. By contrast, bike facilities and pedestrian
>facilities in my area are the dumbest in the world. You know why? Just
>because our engineers are doing a 9 to 5 job and because our
>politicians don't expect them to find solutions for pedestrians and
>cyclists.

Santa Cruz is fairly high on the bicycle friendly city list. Yet,
there are few bicycles found on the city streets. That's because no
matter how the streets are painted, bicycle riding on the shared city
streets is still dangerous.

>This is a motto for engineers:
>"THE REVOLUTION IS ABOUT SOLUTIONS"

Revolting idea. Instead, I suggest:
"If you understand the problem, the solutions are obvious".

What problem are you trying to solve? If it's what I suspect, a
cardboard bicycle offers little in the way of a solution.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
> My question is how to make a bike go from one side of town to the
> other. Their approach, so far, has been to do a little stretch of bike
> lane here and there, but they never connect them. Get it? They never
> connect the dots!

How to make a bike go from one side of town to another? Learn to ride
your bike as a legitimate vehicle on ordinary roads. It's what truly
competent riders do.

By waiting for your fantasy bike lane world, you're perpetuating
dominance by motorists. Quit whining and learn to ride in _this_ world.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> That's a problem with engineers. Throw them a problem and they will
> try to solve it, never questioning whether the problem is worth
> solving in the first place. Duz the world really need a paper
> bicycle?

The world probably does not need a paper bicycle. But regarding your
comment on engineers:

1) Keep in mind that most engineers do their work as employees of
companies. If the boss says "Design this product using these
limitations," they do it or lose their job - unless they can talk some
sense into their boss.*

2) Sometimes engineers work on a problem just as an interesting puzzle
or challenge, just for fun. See
http://www.davebarry.com/misccol/charcoal.htm
for an example.

3) Are there really many engineers engaged in designing and building
paper bicycles? I doubt it.

*(I once worked at a place where an upper manager wanted to convey
production parts on automated assembly lines by floating them on air,
i.e. a conveyor made like an air hockey table. Engineers were able to
talk sense into him.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[thirty-six]

On Apr 9, 6:01 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
>

> <http://www.only1egg-productions.org/AltSci/SREF/ShorelineRenewableEne...>

> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

If metals are effectively unobtainable how do you manage personal
transportation? If paper board couldbe made with orientated fibres
then it does become a useful structural board.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:31:03 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:

>If metals are effectively unobtainable how do you manage personal
>transportation? If paper board couldbe made with orientated fibres
>then it does become a useful structural board.

Use carbon fiber, of course. There are also fiberglass, wood,
plywood, bamboo, corn starch, various plastics, and unibody molded
plastic bicycles. I could probably make a frame from Guerilla Glass,
diamond, carbon nanotubes, reinforced concrete rods, or reinforced
pottery clay. What all these materials have in common is that they
are stronger than cardboard and will survive a rain shower without
precipitating a failure.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com je...@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[thirty-six]

On Apr 9, 11:12 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:31:03 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>

> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >If metals are effectively unobtainable how do you manage personal
> >transportation?  If paper board couldbe made with orientated fibres
> >then it does become a useful structural board.
>
> Use carbon fiber, of course.  There are also fiberglass, wood,
> plywood, bamboo, corn starch, various plastics, and unibody molded
> plastic bicycles.  I could probably make a frame from Guerilla Glass,
> diamond, carbon nanotubes, reinforced concrete rods, or reinforced
> pottery clay.  What all these materials have in common is that they
> are stronger than cardboard and will survive a rain shower without
> precipitating a failure.

If there is no transportation, you have to use the materials to hand.
paper mache stands up well when covered in cellulose paint.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:45:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:

>1) Keep in mind that most engineers do their work as employees of
>companies. If the boss says "Design this product using these
>limitations," they do it or lose their job - unless they can talk some
>sense into their boss.*

True. In the past, the plan was to quickly do it wrong the first
time, and leave some time do it right afterwards. When I was working
for a corporation, I had to do that several times. To their credit,
my various bosses would usually get out of my way and let me do it my
way after the initial problems became obvious. These days, there's
not enough time to even do a decent first article.

>2) Sometimes engineers work on a problem just as an interesting puzzle
>or challenge, just for fun. See
>http://www.davebarry.com/misccol/charcoal.htm
>for an example.

Yes, but that's TV style engineering. I've noticed that there seem to
be a number of TV shows that teach a thinly disguised version of basic
physics and engineering. That would be great, except they all seem to
also be bad excuses to blow something up, burn something down, or make
a huge mess. I don't recall much calculation or ever seeing a
formula.

Incidentally, I once built a charcoal barbeque igniter from a hair
dryer, a can of ether engine starter, and a piezo igniter. It worked
but melted the plastic hair dryer before the charcoal got a good
start. Wrapping the hair dryer in aluminum foil and wearing a welding
glove solved that problem. I would still be using it today except my
barbeque was flattened by a falling tree branch.

>3) Are there really many engineers engaged in designing and building
>paper bicycles? I doubt it.

True, but paper airplanes are popular engineering time burners.

>*(I once worked at a place where an upper manager wanted to convey
>production parts on automated assembly lines by floating them on air,
>i.e. a conveyor made like an air hockey table. Engineers were able to
>talk sense into him.)

That would have been fun to watch. I still have conscience problems
with getting paid to implement something that I know will not work or
sell. In the past, I've participated in far too many such academic
exercises[1].

I'm sure I could make a cardboard bicycle function. It probably would
be too fat to ride, heavier than a steel frame, unstable, and rather
ugly.


[1] In a past life, I used to design marine radios. A manufacturer
of marine hardware decided that they should get into the marine radio
business. The resultant radio literally looked like and was built
like a boat anchor. If asked to produce a bicycle, I'm sure it would
have been made from cast aluminum and weigh 50 lbs.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:

>If there is no transportation, you have to use the materials to hand.
>paper mache stands up well when covered in cellulose paint.

Paper mache bicycles and discussions:
<http://me.stanford.edu/research/design.html>
<http://www.papiermache.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2270>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APapier-m%C3%A2ch%C3%A9#Papier_Mache_Bicycle.3F>

Of course you can make it water resistant. I question how long any
manner of rigid waterproof coating would last once the frame starts to
flex. Instead of cellulose paint, perhaps a flexible latex dip might
be better. However, the problem of achieving stength with paper or
cardboard that's even close to steel or aluminum without a
rediculously large wall thickness, will remain a problem. The tubes
are going to be big and fat.

[thirty-six]

On Apr 9, 11:55 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>

> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >If there is no transportation, you have to use the materials to hand.
> >paper mache stands up well when covered in cellulose paint.
>
> Paper mache bicycles and discussions:
> <http://me.stanford.edu/research/design.html>
> <http://www.papiermache.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2270>

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APapier-m%C3%A2ch%C3%A9#Papier_Mac...>

>
> Of course you can make it water resistant.  I question how long any
> manner of rigid waterproof coating would last once the frame starts to
> flex.

Cellulose paint always flexed well enough on cars.

> Instead of cellulose paint, perhaps a flexible latex dip might
> be better.  However, the problem of achieving stength with paper or
> cardboard that's even close to steel or aluminum without a
> rediculously large wall thickness, will remain a problem.  The tubes
> are going to be big and fat.
>

I think an appropiate design would be more along the lines of the
Strida than a diamond-tubed UCI-compliant frame. Papier-mache is good
in compression and not too good in bending or tension. I think it's
use is more likely as a filler between wood veneers to make beam
sections.

[Dan O]

On Apr 9, 11:35 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

> TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
> > My question is how to make a bike go from one side of town to the
> > other. Their approach, so far, has been to do a little stretch of bike
> > lane here and there, but they never connect them. Get it? They never
> > connect the dots!
>
> How to make a bike go from one side of town to another? Learn to ride
> your bike as a legitimate vehicle on ordinary roads. It's what truly
> competent riders do.
>

I do it. You do it. A *few* others do it. Good for us, but wouldn't
it be even better for us if *many* others did it, and if everybody
felt like they could do it?

> By waiting for your fantasy bike lane world, you're perpetuating
> dominance by motorists. Quit whining and learn to ride in _this_ world.
>

This is how you advocate?

> http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/
>

Well, the author begins by suggesting that "... intact males... "
equates to intimidating. Hmmm...

Then she offers a picture of an absolutely lovely, absolutely traffic-
free road that absolutely beckons, "[Ride Meeeee... ]", and says, "...
bicycling on this street looked frightening to me... "

Then she took a class that got her over her fear ala the Krygowski
method. I have consistently said there's nothing wrong with that for
those who need it. That got her out on her bike. Keep up the good
work, Frank (though in TM's case I think these efforts may be wasted,
I think you know this, and I think you mostly just want to shut him
up.)

Then she concludes with, "I have gradually expanded my cycling forays,
and it just gets easier and more enjoyable." I have consistently said
*this* is when people will realize that riding a bicycle for
transportation is not as bad as they thought (there is no subsitute
for experience).

The question is: What will get more people out on their bikes? The
answer lies in those places where more people ride.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

I think your career as a civil engineer would be doomed. I just have
to throw this "problem" at you:

[Dan O]

On Apr 9, 11:45 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> > That's a problem with engineers. Throw them a problem and they will
> > try to solve it, never questioning whether the problem is worth
> > solving in the first place. Duz the world really need a paper
> > bicycle?
>
> The world probably does not need a paper bicycle. But regarding your
> comment on engineers:
>
> 1) Keep in mind that most engineers do their work as employees of
> companies. If the boss says "Design this product using these
> limitations," they do it or lose their job - unless they can talk some
> sense into their boss.*
>

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858505313/

> 2) Sometimes engineers work on a problem just as an interesting puzzle
> or challenge, just for fun. Seehttp://www.davebarry.com/misccol/charcoal.htm
> for an example.
>

(1) engineers, and (2) guys in general

> 3) Are there really many engineers engaged in designing and building
> paper bicycles? I doubt it.
>
> *(I once worked at a place where an upper manager wanted to convey

> production parts on automated assembly lines by floating them on air...

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-pneumatic-conveyor.htm

>...,

> i.e. a conveyor made like an air hockey table. Engineers were able to
> talk sense into him.)
>

They should just pitch in to buy one of these for the pointy-head
manager's desk:

http://www.toymania.com/columns/spotlight/hplevgame.shtml

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 16:10:22 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:

>Cellulose paint always flexed well enough on cars.

Yes, but on plastic parts such as bumpers that flex, the stuff is
loaded with one of several adhesion promoters. The stuff usually has
miserable surface energy and has to be painted over a compatible
primer, such as a nitro cellulose resin. Painted directly onto paper
mache, the paint would dissolve the water soluble glue holding the
paper layers together causing the paper mache tube to fall apart. It
can be done, but it's not simple.

>I think an appropiate design would be more along the lines of the
>Strida than a diamond-tubed UCI-compliant frame. Papier-mache is good
>in compression and not too good in bending or tension. I think it's
>use is more likely as a filler between wood veneers to make beam
>sections.

<http://www.strida.com>
Good idea. The basic plan would be to maximize the tubing compression
and avoid any torsion, tension, bending, or shear. However, looking
at the design, the bottom tube (where the crank mounts) is totally in
tension, and bending when downward force is applied to the crank.
That's not going to work. However, it should be possible to add
fiberglass or carbon fiber tensioners to this tube to take up most of
the tension, and a cable between the seat and the crank, to reduce the
bending. Basically, use tubes where there's mostly compression and
wire tensioners where there's mostly tension or bending.

I dunno about using paper mache as filler. That would defeat the
original purpose of a paper bicycle. There are also better materials
for filler.

Too bad winter is almost over. It would have been interesting to
build a bicycle frame from ice using Pykrete:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete>
Same idea as with a paper frame. A cable down the middle of the tube
to reduce the loading in tension.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

That's the dilemma here: Knowledge or Animal Instincts. I suggest that
you both enroll in bike safety programs and animal training. I think
Dog's Whisperer is particularly important, but when you have so many
animals loose, you risk yourself in harm's way.

http://www.cesarsway.com/

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 16:40:13 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
Cruiser Philosopher" <nolionn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Santa Cruz is fairly high on the bicycle friendly city list. Yet,
>there are few bicycles found on the city streets. That's because no
>matter how the streets are painted, bicycle riding on the shared city
>streets is still dangerous."

Ah, but we have plans. For the city of SCZ:
<http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=2496>
and for the county of SCZ:
<http://sccrtc.org/services/bike/>
<http://sccrtc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2011BikePlan_SC_County.pdf>
It's not like we're standing still and doing nothing. However, the
problem is that a painted strip on the road is not going to prevent
vehicles from using the bike lane as a construction, parking, loading,
or turning lane. The only really safe bike lane seems to be a totally
separate bicycle lane, that's physically isolated from the vehicle
traffic lanes. We have some of those, but they're few and far
between.

However, there have been some excursions into lunacy.
<http://www.dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/slv/FinalReportSLVTrailFeasibilityStudypostversion.pdf>
This was an attempt to brainstorm how to provide a bicycle lane along
the narrow, twisted, dangerous, overloaded Highway 9, from Santa Cruz
and through the San Lorenzo Valley. Parts of the road include 100ft+
sheer drops adjacent to the road shoulder. To solve this problem, an
elevated bicycle roadway was proposed. See Pg 63 and 64 for examples.
No need to go to the Boardwalk for a thrill ride when you can have the
same effect on this bicycle path. BTW, only $2.8 million per mile for
the bicycle path, not including $10,000 per mile annual maintenance.

[Dan O]

On Apr 9, 5:28 pm, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

Heh. Do you suppose the "bike safety program" will successfully train
this animal?

> I think
> Dog's Whisperer is particularly important, but when you have so many
> animals loose, you risk yourself in harm's way.
>

Animals are okay (that all I am, after all). I used to work in a
County Health Dept office - the one that handles dog bite incidents.
They're all "good dogs".

> http://www.cesarsway.com/

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/feral_dogs_rule_detroit.html

[thirty-six]

On Apr 10, 1:34 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 16:10:22 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>

> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >Cellulose paint always flexed well enough on cars.
>
> Yes, but on plastic parts such as bumpers that flex, the stuff is
> loaded with one of several adhesion promoters.  The stuff usually has
> miserable surface energy and has to be painted over a compatible
> primer, such as a nitro cellulose resin.  Painted directly onto paper
> mache, the paint would dissolve the water soluble glue holding the
> paper layers together causing the paper mache tube to fall apart.  It
> can be done, but it's not simple.
>
> >I think an appropiate design would be more along the lines of the
> >Strida than a diamond-tubed UCI-compliant frame.  Papier-mache is good
> >in compression and not too good in bending or tension.  I think it's
> >use is more likely as a filler between wood veneers to make beam
> >sections.
>
> <http://www.strida.com>
> Good idea.  The basic plan would be to maximize the tubing compression
> and avoid any torsion, tension, bending, or shear.  However, looking
> at the design, the bottom tube (where the crank mounts) is totally in
> tension, and bending when downward force is applied to the crank.

Think of beams rather than tubes. A 'hollow section' beam made from
wood veneer with a corrugated paper filler could do the job nicely.

> That's not going to work.  However, it should be possible to add
> fiberglass or carbon fiber tensioners to this tube to take up most of

One has to assume if one is using paper as a construction material
that spun glass or carbon is unlikely to be available.

> the tension, and a cable between the seat and the crank, to reduce the
> bending.  Basically, use tubes where there's mostly compression and
> wire tensioners where there's mostly tension or bending.
>
> I dunno about using paper mache as filler.

For the steering rod or forks it could be the only way to get the
strength in combination with vwood veneer.

> That would defeat the
> original purpose of a paper bicycle.  There are also better materials
> for filler.

There's a "better" everything, it's been going on for nearly 300
years.

[Wes Groleau]

On 04-09-2012 19:45, Dan O wrote:
> I do it. You do it. A*few* others do it. Good for us, but wouldn't
> it be even better for us if*many* others did it, and if everybody

> felt like they could do it?

I have been noticing an increase in bicycles in my area, and I find
myself wondering whether the cause is gas prices or the fact that they
see others do it. When I got rid of my car two years ago, I was the
only cyclist I ever saw in a radius of a mile. Now I see at least one
other almost every day.

It doesn't really save money on gas--the cost of extra calories cancels
that out. But it certainly saves money on maintenance and insurance.
And registration fees. And probably on health care.

--
Wes Groleau

Armchair Activism: http://www.breakthechain.org/armchair.html

[Frank Krygowski]

Dan O wrote:
> On Apr 9, 11:45 am, Frank Krygowski<frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>>> That's a problem with engineers. Throw them a problem and they will
>>> try to solve it, never questioning whether the problem is worth
>>> solving in the first place. Duz the world really need a paper
>>> bicycle?
>>
>> The world probably does not need a paper bicycle. But regarding your
>> comment on engineers:
>>
>> 1) Keep in mind that most engineers do their work as employees of
>> companies. If the boss says "Design this product using these
>> limitations," they do it or lose their job - unless they can talk some
>> sense into their boss.*

>>...

>>
>> *(I once worked at a place where an upper manager wanted to convey
>> production parts on automated assembly lines by floating them on air...
>
> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-pneumatic-conveyor.htm

I once did plant engineering in a manufacturing plant that extruded
products from polyethylene pellets. Those were stored in huge silos
external to the plant, and blown to each extruder via a pressure system
as described in that article. That works well, even though it's noisy.
(And noise control was part of my job.)

But the scheme proposed by the upper manager at this other place was
entirely different. He just got fascinated with an air hockey table and
used it as a brainstorm. He was shooting for "innovative" and hit
"goofy" instead.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

An elevated bikeway is the _only_ truly separate bicycle lane. Except
for relatively rare locations (like alongside freeways, railroad lines
or watercourses) every "separated" bike lane has intersections at every
cross street and every driveway. At those locations, the supposedly
"protected" bicyclist is usually expected to fly through at speed in a
location that motorists never expect.

Those who dwell in fantasy think that surprising motorists doesn't
matter, and that protection from rare hits-from-behind is more
important. Those who study actual causes of car-bike crashes think
differently.

Sadly, landscape architects and monkeys are not among the latter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[datakoll]

ELEVATED BIKEWAYS ? there's an earth effective idea.

Like flying cars !

I'm traveling thru Utah.....forest to sagebrush....hey guys where'the grass, replanted trees, topsoil ?

why not even ferrous oxide to snot on.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

I meant we must train drivers before we can feel safe. But doesn't
hurt that we undergo some training ourselves.

>
> > I think
> > Dog's Whisperer is particularly important, but when you have so many
> > animals loose, you risk yourself in harm's way.
>
> Animals are okay (that all I am, after all).  I used to work in a
> County Health Dept office - the one that handles dog bite incidents.
> They're all "good dogs".
>
> >http://www.cesarsway.com/

From Cesar's page:

Can’t we all just get along?

Bill, our cat, recently returned home with a freshly-caught baby
rabbit in his mouth. Wilbur, our house-rabbit, sat in his pen about
three feet away, watching while Bill proceeded to eat the bunny,
leaving only the ears and tail.

I hollered at Bill. Threw pebbles. Tried to spare Wilbur the sight of
one of his own on Bill’s proverbial dinner plate. But, in typical
feline fashion, Bill savored every bite and when he was done,
stretched out beside Wilbur’s pen and washed his whiskers. The message
from Bill seemed clear: Better sleep with one eye open, Bunny-Boy.

http://www.cesarsway.com/dogbehavior/territorial/Cant-we-just-get-along

***

I do not trust drivers.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 9, 11:16 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 16:40:13 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach

> > Cruiser Philosopher"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com>  wrote:

>
> >> "Santa Cruz is fairly high on the bicycle friendly city list.  Yet,
> >> there are few bicycles found on the city streets.  That's because no
> >> matter how the streets are painted, bicycle riding on the shared city
> >> streets is still dangerous."
>
> > Ah, but we have plans.  For the city of SCZ:
> > <http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=2496>
> > and for the county of SCZ:
> > <http://sccrtc.org/services/bike/>
> > <http://sccrtc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2011BikePlan_SC_County.pdf>
> > It's not like we're standing still and doing nothing.  However, the
> > problem is that a painted strip on the road is not going to prevent
> > vehicles from using the bike lane as a construction, parking, loading,
> > or turning lane.  The only really safe bike lane seems to be a totally
> > separate bicycle lane, that's physically isolated from the vehicle
> > traffic lanes.  We have some of those, but they're few and far
> > between.
>
> > However, there have been some excursions into lunacy.

> > <http://www.dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/slv/FinalReportSLVTrailFeasibility...>

> > This was an attempt to brainstorm how to provide a bicycle lane along
> > the narrow, twisted, dangerous, overloaded Highway 9, from Santa Cruz
> > and through the San Lorenzo Valley.  Parts of the road include 100ft+
> > sheer drops adjacent to the road shoulder.  To solve this problem, an
> > elevated bicycle roadway was proposed.  See Pg 63 and 64 for examples.
> > No need to go to the Boardwalk for a thrill ride when you can have the
> > same effect on this bicycle path.  BTW, only $2.8 million per mile for
> > the bicycle path, not including $10,000 per mile annual maintenance.
>
> An elevated bikeway is the _only_ truly separate bicycle lane.  Except
> for relatively rare locations (like alongside freeways, railroad lines
> or watercourses) every "separated" bike lane has intersections at every
> cross street and every driveway.  At those locations, the supposedly
> "protected" bicyclist is usually expected to fly through at speed in a
> location that motorists never expect.
>
> Those who dwell in fantasy think that surprising motorists doesn't
> matter, and that protection from rare hits-from-behind is more
> important.  Those who study actual causes of car-bike crashes think
> differently.
>
> Sadly, landscape architects and monkeys are not among the latter.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Monkeys simply don't trust the ground. They stay in the treetops, just
in case. When they do come down they must be extremely cautious.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

I'd challenge engineers to design a pedal airplane.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 9, 10:45 pm, Wes Groleau <Groleau+n...@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> On 04-09-2012 19:45, Dan O wrote:
>
> > I do it.  You do it.  A*few*  others do it.  Good for us, but wouldn't
> > it be even better for us if*many*  others did it, and if everybody
> > felt like they could do it?
>
> I have been noticing an increase in bicycles in my area, and I find
> myself wondering whether the cause is gas prices or the fact that they
> see others do it.  When I got rid of my car two years ago, I was the
> only cyclist I ever saw in a radius of a mile.  Now I see at least one
> other almost every day.
>
> It doesn't really save money on gas--the cost of extra calories cancels
> that out.

You may argue that the food you eat pleases your senses, doesn't hurt
the environment and it's grown in America.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

If I were an engineer designing a zoo, I wouldn't throw the tiger and
the sheep together.

Different space for different species is wise among animals.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:37:10 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:

>Think of beams rather than tubes. A 'hollow section' beam made from
>wood veneer with a corrugated paper filler could do the job nicely.

Ok, except that filler doesn't add much strength. It has some benefit
in that it helps reduce buckling, but only if it's rammed hard.
Basically, the strength would be mostly in the veneer.

What I was thinking was more like this stuff:
<http://www.yazoomills.com/mailing-tubes/heavy-duty-kraft.aspx>
I don't have numbers for the strength, but something with an 0.080" to
0.100" thick wall should be usable[1]. Filling the mailing tube with
shredded newspaper and glue might improve the stiffness, but methinks
I could do the same thing by varnishing the insides, and pumping up
the tube with compressed air.

>One has to assume if one is using paper as a construction material
>that spun glass or carbon is unlikely to be available.

Y'er making it difficult for me. Would you at least allow metal
fasteners? What bothers me are the wheels. I don't have a clue on
how to make them out of paper or cardboard.

>There's a "better" everything, it's been going on for nearly 300
>years.

For filler, instead of paper and glue, I was thinking more like
expanding urethane foam (fence post compound) or compressed air.

>> I dunno about using paper mache as filler.
>
>For the steering rod or forks it could be the only way to get the
>strength in combination with vwood veneer.

How about a different style for the front forks? Instead of two
forks, one large diameter tube, with a slot for a disk wheel. A
rounded end in the slot, near the top for the tire, and to prevent a
stress riser. The half round fork sections could be filled with
something solid, and braced against the more solid upper part of the
fork. If that won't play, maybe telescoping tubes:
<http://www.yazoomills.com/mailing-tubes/adjustable-shipping.aspx>
with a spring inside for the forks.


[1] when I was much younger, my father owned a lingerie factory. The
nylon net arrived on thick cardboard tubes. I would use the surplus
tubes to build all manner of strange things, many of which supported
my weight. The tubes are amazingly strong.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Wes Groleau]

I may, but I wouldn't. There's more to food than pleasure.
I also consider calories and nutrition. Sometimes the latter
takes precedence.

As for the other two points: more food means more poop.
It also means more trucks on the road delivering it.

And a good portion of it comes from South America and Canada.

--
Wes Groleau

You're all individuals!
Yes, we're all individuals!
You're all different!
Yes, we are all different!
I'm not!
("Life of Brian")

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Apr 10, 12:04 am, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

Done and concept proved way back in 1979 when the craft was flown
across the English Channel solely by pedal power. Google Gossamer
Albatross.

Cheers

[thirty-six]

On Apr 10, 6:32 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 19:37:10 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>

> <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> >Think of beams rather than tubes.  A 'hollow section' beam made from
> >wood veneer with a corrugated paper filler could do the job nicely.
>
> Ok, except that filler doesn't add much strength.  It has some benefit
> in that it helps reduce buckling, but only if it's rammed hard.
> Basically, the strength would be mostly in the veneer.

Many cheap interior doors are notthing but paper and wood veneer. It
is extremely light and sufficiently strong. It's not going to stand
up to a hammer attack, but then neither does thin-wall steel tubing.

>
> What I was thinking was more like this stuff:
> <http://www.yazoomills.com/mailing-tubes/heavy-duty-kraft.aspx>
> I don't have numbers for the strength, but something with an 0.080" to
> 0.100" thick wall should be usable[1].  Filling the mailing tube with
> shredded newspaper and glue might improve the stiffness, but methinks
> I could do the same thing by varnishing the insides, and pumping up
> the tube with compressed air.

Ypu can use that idea for legs on a coffee-table.

>
> >One has to assume if one is using paper as a construction material
> >that spun glass or carbon is unlikely to be available.
>
> Y'er making it difficult for me.  Would you at least allow metal
> fasteners?

That's a peculiar request, I really dont see the need.

> What bothers me are the wheels.  I don't have a clue on
> how to make them out of paper or cardboard.

In the same manner as carbon fibre as long as it is possible to
produce a paper with orientated strands.

>
> >There's a "better" everything, it's been going on for nearly 300
> >years.
>
> For filler, instead of paper and glue, I was thinking more like
> expanding urethane foam (fence post compound) or compressed air.
>
> >> I dunno about using paper mache as filler.
>
> >For the steering rod or forks it could be the only way to get the
> >strength in combination with vwood veneer.
>
> How about a different style for the front forks?  Instead of two
> forks, one large diameter tube, with a slot for a disk wheel.  A

D-section fork blades are not new.

> rounded end in the slot, near the top for the tire, and to prevent a
> stress riser.  The half round fork sections could be filled with
> something solid, and braced against the more solid upper part of the
> fork.  If that won't play, maybe telescoping tubes:
> <http://www.yazoomills.com/mailing-tubes/adjustable-shipping.aspx>
> with a spring inside for the forks.

I don't reckon on your sprung forks working.

>
> [1] when I was much younger, my father owned a lingerie factory.  The
> nylon net arrived on thick cardboard tubes.  I would use the surplus
> tubes to build all manner of strange things, many of which supported
> my weight.  The tubes are amazingly strong.
>

Until they receive a small side impact, and then they buckle and
collapse, I've been there. This is why it is better to think in
similar terms of general construction to the paper-spaced interior
doors.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 2:52 am, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

> <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> considered Mon, 9 Apr 2012 21:04:46

> It's been done.

Really? I want one!

Maybe engineers are told to make a paper bike to make sure they follow
stupid commands. A flying bike makes sense.

[Frank Krygowski]

You really should do some reading before doing so much posting. As in
this case, you frequently make proclamations (or as in this case,
challenges) with absolutely no background knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossamer_Condor

You're 35 years behind.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 10:33 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

My point is not to fly a bike but to put the engineers to shame.

You must realize that.

[Frank Krygowski]

My point is you should learn a little before you post.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[datakoll]

TRY UTUBE for pedalplaneing

stronger tubing ? try elliptical diagnols if a straight section down the middle...if the ellip is too complex.....eeeeyow...

nice bridge in AZ at Roosevelt Dam, a half circle suspension bridge has an X Brace tween half beams, designers post a sign IDing the structure.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

Great engineering in this design:

On Apr 9, 11:38 am, rst0 <rst0w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A more desirable and needed bike is a light weight portable bike you
> can carry in a briefcase when not needed, and unfold and work like a
> normal regular bike when needed. I bet it would sell like hotcake if
> you can design and build one and can last at least a few years.

Engineers have really worked on folding bikes. And some of them are
truly portable enough to carry around folded...

http://www.strida.com/en/products/?method=listing&sid=7

The main problem is that we don't place to ride them! It's like
selling a car and there are no roads for it. A little folding bike
though has a niche because it's safer on sidewalks, but that's no
solution either.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 10:54 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>

The evidence is all around me. "Bike facilities" are not only stupid,
they are criminal. If I were an engineer in charge of approving those,
I'd commit suicide.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:57:12 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
Cruiser Philosopher" <nolionn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The evidence is all around me. "Bike facilities" are not only stupid,
>they are criminal. If I were an engineer in charge of approving those,
>I'd commit suicide.

In the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz (county), we have an 11 member
bicycle transportation advisory committee. I don't know everyone on
the committee but of those that I recognize, none are engineers.
<http://sccrtc.org/about/committee-rosters/bicycle-committee/>
The closest approximation are environmental designers. Most are
transportation advocates and all are cyclists.

When presented with the possibility of installing a bicycle lane,
storage locker, bicycle rack, bike trail, or other grand scheme, there
are state and local codes and guidelines that almost totally determine
their appearance and construction. See:
<http://sccrtc.org/services/bike/>
under "Bicycle Facility Planning and Design Guidelines".

Occasionally, someone tries to do something creative. The effort
necessary to break or bend the rules and "guidelines" are monumental
and usually do not succeed. The result is considerable uniformity in
the construction and design of bicycle facilities.

Of course, every plan needs funding. This might help:
<http://sccrtc.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/PCL_GuideToBikePgmFndgCA-2.pdf>

If you have a better system or plan to get involved, I'm sure there's
a local bicycle advocacy group in your area that can point you in the
right direction. Also, I don't recommend suicide as it's not really
an effective form of protest.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 11:09 am, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

I missed the Strida was quoted above, but in this case I'm looking at
the convenience of it, not the performance.

Anyway, this is interesting for some malicious people lurking around:

I QUOTE:

Initially, there were few constraints on the traffic engineer and
highway designer. Starting at the centerline, highways were developed
according to the number of motor vehicle travel lanes that were needed
well into the future, as well as providing space for breakdowns.
Beyond that, facilities for bicyclists and pedestrians, environmental
mitigation, accessibility, community preservation, and aesthetics were
at best an afterthought, often simply overlooked, and, at worst,
rejected as unnecessary, costly, and regressive.

...

The additional "burden" of having to find space for pedestrians and
bicyclists was rejected as impossible in many communities because of
space and funding constraints and a perceived lack of demand. There
was also anxiety about encouraging an activity that many felt to be
dangerous and fraught with liability issues. Designers continued to
design from the centerline out and often simply ran out of space
before bike lanes, paved shoulders, sidewalks and other "amenities"
could be included.

By contrast, bicycle and pedestrian user groups argue the roadway
designer should design highways from the right-of-way limits in,
rather than the centerline out. They advocate beginning the design of
a highway with the sidewalk and/or trail, including a buffer before
the paved shoulder or bike lane, and then allocating the remaining
space for motor vehicles. Through this approach, walking and bicycling
are positively encouraged, made safer, and included as a critical
element in every transportation project rather than as an afterthought
in a handful of unconnected and arbitrary locations within a
community.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/design.htm

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
Cruiser Philosopher" <nolionn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/design.htm

Please forgive my amusement, but sharing the path with bicycles,
pedestrians, scateboards, joggers, baby strollers, panhandlers, and
gawkers has been a chronic problem with several popular bike path in
Santa Cruz along the beach (West Cliff). On weekends, it can become
somewhat crowded. I usually ride in the road instead of the bike path
as I've come very close to clobbering pedestrians that were not paying
attention.

[AMuzi]

That's old news. Here is a successful 1976 effort:

http://www.humanpoweredflying.propdesigner.co.uk/assets/images/CONDOR_4.jpg

and later successful revision

http://papercastlepress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Gossamer_Albatross_II-1024x816.jpg



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 12:40 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:17:31 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
>

> Cruiser Philosopher" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bikeped/design.htm
>
> Please forgive my amusement, but sharing the path with bicycles,
> pedestrians, scateboards, joggers, baby strollers, panhandlers, and
> gawkers has been a chronic problem with several popular bike path in
> Santa Cruz along the beach (West Cliff).  On weekends, it can become
> somewhat crowded.  I usually ride in the road instead of the bike path
> as I've come very close to clobbering pedestrians that were not paying
> attention.

Same here. I rather ride on sidewalk than a scenic path along the
beach that includes pedestrians and dogs struggling for space.

But this article doesn't talk about mixed paths at all, I don't think.
Bicycles and pedestrians do not mix.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 2:33 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
> > On Apr 9, 11:47 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> ELEVATED BIKEWAYS ?  there's an earth effective idea.
>
> >> Like flying cars !
>
> >> I'm traveling thru Utah.....forest to sagebrush....hey guys where'the grass, replanted trees, topsoil ?
>
> >> why not even ferrous oxide to snot on.
>
> > I'd challenge engineers to design a pedal airplane.
>
> That's old news. Here is a successful 1976 effort:
>

> http://www.humanpoweredflying.propdesigner.co.uk/assets/images/CONDOR...
>
> and later successful revision
>
> http://papercastlepress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Gossamer_...

How about making them in China and marketing them through Walmart?

Here's the starting point...

http://www.pedalcarexpress.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_19/1097600295_4240445747.gif

That's what I'm talking about, practical stuff. Something even a kid
can use. Good challenge for our traffic engineers. It would avoid the
need for bike facilities and it won't slow down those crazy drivers.

[Frank Krygowski]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:57:12 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach
> Cruiser Philosopher"<nolionn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The evidence is all around me. "Bike facilities" are not only stupid,
>> they are criminal. If I were an engineer in charge of approving those,
>> I'd commit suicide.
>
> In the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz (county), we have an 11 member
> bicycle transportation advisory committee. I don't know everyone on
> the committee but of those that I recognize, none are engineers.
> <http://sccrtc.org/about/committee-rosters/bicycle-committee/>
> The closest approximation are environmental designers. Most are
> transportation advocates and all are cyclists.
>
> When presented with the possibility of installing a bicycle lane,
> storage locker, bicycle rack, bike trail, or other grand scheme, there
> are state and local codes and guidelines that almost totally determine
> their appearance and construction. See:
> <http://sccrtc.org/services/bike/>
> under "Bicycle Facility Planning and Design Guidelines".
>
> Occasionally, someone tries to do something creative. The effort
> necessary to break or bend the rules and "guidelines" are monumental
> and usually do not succeed. The result is considerable uniformity in

> the construction and design of bicycle facilities. ...

... which, generally speaking, is a good thing. "Innovation" in
transportation facility design should be viewed with suspicion. Most
roadway designs have developed through a process involving a hundred
years of careful deliberation and evaluation. They're based on
fundamental facts like these: humans have finite reaction times; they
can see in the forward direction much better than they can see by
craning their necks backwards to the right; while in a moving vehicle,
its difficult to instantly figure out a wildly different road
configuration; and so on.

There are fundamental principles that have arisen from such practical
considerations - things like: All vehicles going the same direction
should be on the same side of the road. Faster vehicles should pass
slower ones on the side closest to the road's center. Turns at
intersections should be made from the portion of the lane that minimizes
crossing conflicts. Road users have "right of way" and aren't normally
required to abandon the road for the convenience of others going the
same direction... and so on.

The problem is, there are now lots of "bicycle advocates" who want to
abandon all the above logic and all the design principles proven by 100
years of testing and evaluation. They call their crackpot designs
"innovative," as if blessing them with that word will allow them to
violate rules of physics and human psychology. So they design in things
like right hook crashes, and expect them to be prevented with green
paint. Or they put bicyclists on the "wrong" side of the road, and
expect head-on crashes to be prevented with paint stripes. Or they pick
one feature of a culture like that of Copenhagen, and pretend that
copying that one feature (say, a bike lane) will transform America into
Copenhagen.

What's most worrying to me is that these "innovative bicycle advocates"
have now written their own design manual, in which any crazy idea
implemented anywhere by any other "innovative bicycle advocate" is given
wondrous praise and approval. Very few have been actually evaluated for
safety and efficiency in a North American setting; yet all are
encouraged for copying. Why? Because they're "innovative!" of course!

It's very important that competent cyclists work for their right to NOT
use these crazy facilities. And to try to talk sense to the officials
who are getting seduced by the "innovative" landscape architects behind
these designs.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Indeed.

My former route is so addled with 3d grader "artsy" lane
markings, squiggly lines and odd symbols, I now ride a few
blocks over (in more traffic).

These projects (hugely expensive BTW) seem more about
aggrandizement of the ever growing martinet 'experts' at
City Hall than about cycling.

I don't think I'm allowed on my old route anyway because I
do not hold the rank of Corporal:

http://publicola.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Ballard_Bridge_bike_lane.jpg

or whatever the hell that means.

Double all that for those green "You Are A Target" boxes. Bah!

[Frank Krygowski]

davethedave wrote:

> On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 22:45:08 -0400, Wes Groleau wrote:
>
>> It doesn't really save money on gas--the cost of extra calories cancels

>> that out. But it certainly saves money on maintenance and insurance.
>> And registration fees. And probably on health care.
>
> So how much is petrol then? In this day of international communication as
> a daily norm, we in other parts of the world get curious.

America currently averages about $4/gallon for gas. That's about 0.67
GB pounds per liter, or about 0.80 Euros per liter. I think yours are
about double ours, right?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 4:07 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:57:12 -0700 (PDT), "TibetanMonkey, the Beach

> > Cruiser Philosopher"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com>  wrote:

Enforce passing on the outside lane only, place SPEED CAMERAS
throughout communities and BAN CELL PHONES before you make people come
out. Ah, don't forget to place the liability on the driver. Let the
driver worry about cyclists and pedestrians.

In other words, TAME TRAFFIC.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 6:50 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

> <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> considered Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:57:12 -0700

> (PDT) the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> I think that you and Frank are in furious agreement on that subject :)

I don't agree that BIKE FACILITIES have to stupid. If American
engineers are not up to task, let's bring Europeans or Cubans.

But there's a Plan B if you find foreigners telling you what to do too
sensitive: TAKE THE LANE EVERY TIME. Make cars leave the lane to pass
you. YOU NEED SPACE. And don't forget to TAME TRAFFIC.

[Frank Krygowski]

Interesting that the Monkey is now in agreement with the most militant
cyclists. Heck, even I don't take the lane _every_ time!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 10, 10:16 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>

wrote:
> TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 6:50 pm, Phil W Lee<p...@lee-family.me.uk>  wrote:
> >> "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"
> >> <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com>  considered Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:57:12 -0700
> >> (PDT) the perfect time to write:
>
> >>> The evidence is all around me. "Bike facilities" are not only stupid,
> >>> they are criminal. If I were an engineer in charge of approving those,
> >>> I'd commit suicide.
>
> >> I think that you and Frank are in furious agreement on that subject :)
>
> > I don't agree that BIKE FACILITIES have to stupid. If American
> > engineers are not up to task, let's bring Europeans or Cubans.
>
> > But there's a Plan B if you find foreigners telling you what to do too
> > sensitive: TAKE THE LANE EVERY TIME. Make cars leave the lane to pass
> > you. YOU NEED SPACE. And don't forget to TAME TRAFFIC.
>
> Interesting that the Monkey is now in agreement with the most militant
> cyclists.  Heck, even I don't take the lane _every_ time!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Sorry, when you don't take the lane you invite drivers to squeeze you,
harass you and intimidate you. You don't share space with a beast 20
times your weight. The noise also rattles you. Some of them roar the
engine on purpose.

When you take the lane you become more visible as well. There's only
one way and that's over your dead body.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I misread the document and somehow read that it was recommending
shared bicycle and pedestrian paths. It was hinted by:
"Paved shoulders have safety and operational advantages
for all road users in addition to providing a place for
bicyclists and pedestrians to operate."
but not explicitely stated. Sorry.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Apr 10, 11:56 pm, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

And sometimes it *IS* over your very dead body.

If and when push comes to shove a car or truck will win over a bicycle
every time.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

That's a bad way to think about it. First, "dead bodies" of bicyclists
are extremely rare, and especially if you subtract those caused by the
cyclists doing really dumb things like riding drunk, at night with no
lights, facing traffic, etc. Bike deaths are barely more common than
dead bodies from falling out of bed.

Second, portraying traffic as a battle resulting in death leads to bad
decisions, like skulking along on sidewalks, which are much more
dangerous than roads, according to every study on the subject I've ever
seen.

I certainly take the lane when I judge it's safer or useful. TM is
right about that. All I was saying is I don't _always_ take the lane.
I share the lane when it's suitably safe and convenient.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

But it won't be by "accident." It would be international news and some
here will rejoice. ;)

For it to need to work though it has to be coordinate by different
people, in different cities. Not at all like Critical Mass. It could
one person in Miami, one in NYC and another in Dallas. The more the
better.

This is confirmed by the "laws of nature":

"The big fish eats the little fish unless the little fish get
organized."

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 11, 10:46 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

Do you agree that TAKING THE LANE would be safer that SHARING THE LANE?

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

All we got to do is to get the Third World on board an forget about
Western solutions. Then American engineers will face the fact that
they have to work for their money. Cuba has such a solution but it's
the wrong model: NO BANANAS and NO ROAMING FREE.

On Apr 10, 11:18 pm, RichAsianKid <RichAsian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/04/2012 7:56 PM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 6:54 pm, RichAsianKid<RichAsian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 08/04/2012 8:09 PM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 8, 5:35 pm, RichAsianKid<RichAsian...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 08/04/2012 11:23 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher wrote:
>
> >>>>> "The reason is we have now reached a moment where four words -- the
> >>>>> earth is full -- will define our times. This is not a philosophical
> >>>>> statement; this is just science based in physics, chemistry and
> >>>>> biology. There are many science-based analyses of this, but they all
> >>>>> draw the same conclusion -- that we're living beyond our means."
>
> >>>>>http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/08/opinion/gilding-earth-limits/index.html...
>
> >>>>> I won't dispute those finding because they confirm my own common
> >>>>> sense. The question is what do we do about it. One option is make
> >>>>> pregnant mothers sign an affidavit that she understands the Earth is
> >>>>> full, and that her kid won't have a nice life. We have to make her
> >>>>> understand that cannibalism is a real possibility within a lifetime
> >>>>> due to the scarcity of resources. Or maybe that cats and dogs become
> >>>>> an important part of our diet.
>
> >>>>> Another option, of course, is to learn to live within our means so the
> >>>>> Earth can sustain us for a long time. Reality is we are stealing from
> >>>>> future generations and that's not nice. There's something I can do
> >>>>> today and that's to ride a bicycle and be conscious of what I eat or
> >>>>> use. Tell you what, I won't drive a car today.
>
> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>>>http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION
>
> >>>> One prof history emeritus by name of Harold Dorn once wrote:
>
> >>>> "No species has ever been able to multiply without limit. There are two
> >>>> biological checks upon a rapid increase in number - a high mortality and
> >>>> low fertility. Unlike other biological organisms, man can choose which
> >>>> of these checks shall be applied, but one of them must be."
>
> >>>> Quite true.
>
> >>>> At the same time never forget much like fantasy kumbaya and manufactured
> >>>> notions of equality the very idea humans are somehow ultimately above
> >>>> nature is utopian to begin with. That is, more simply put, not all
> >>>> posterity are created equal; and some children are _still_ preferred
> >>>> more than others.
>
> >>>> Which of course fundamentally threatens yet another variant of idealism:
> >>>> another instance of "hope" over experience perhaps?
>
> >>>> Why not be one with nature?
>
> >>> We could support very high populations if it weren't for all the waste
> >>> and lack of planning. The Dutch get along fine with their bikes in a
> >>> highly populated land. Bike traffic seems to flow better there than
> >>> rush hour in America, which has a much lower population density. Maybe
> >>> the Third World needs to discard the Western model altogether and look
> >>> for alternatives such as the bike and the preservation of ecosystems.
> >>> The cash crops are wiping out forests and creating hunger.
>
> >>> The West has paid a hefty price for development and it's now in
> >>> crisis. I can only hope it doesn't bounce back so it'll learn to live
> >>> within its means. Perhaps the best hope we can have in the wasteful
> >>> rich countries is to have bicycles occupy our main mode of
> >>> transportation within healthy communities.
>
> >>> It's not the bike alone of course. Curitiba, Brazil, is a model of
> >>> public transportation from a Third World country. You don't need to be
> >>> rich to be prosperous.
>
> >> Look, you still have to make a choice. And some will be more valued than
> >> others in zero-sum game.
>
> >> Why fight Darwin?
>
> >> Why deplore competition when it's selection process?
>
> >> Why not accept some will be valued more than others by whatever perspective?
>
> >> Again, why fight nature? And not learn from the "West's" mistakes?
>
> > If you don't use the Xerox machine, then it makes sense. My concern is
> > that consumption habits made in West are recklessly copied, and this
> > adds to the doomsday scenario.
>
> > For example the approaches followed by Taiwan (scooters) and Singapore
> > (bullet trains) are praiseworthy given their reality not that of the
> > West. And in turn this not the reality for Africa, where the humble
> > bike could the vehicle of liberation. Adaption to the environment is a
> > law of nature.
>
> Then tell us how much more copying you can get if you parrot equality,
> liberty, or democracy. When you "liberate" the rest of the 6 or 7
> billion, how much worse will the world become?
>
> Tell us.

You are rather pessimist about the outcome but it can only be better
than what it is. Liberation means not only democracy but liberation of
Western patterns that are rather unhealthy and unreal. I can almost
hear it: "I got to have a car to be happy." Oh c'mon, this is Africa,
you better be happy with bicycles and bananas. Yes, the West has some
mighty technology such as the Internet that we can take advantage of,
but we all can be happier by roaming free, than by driving a car and
eating McDonald's.

Excuse my copy & paste now:

Bananas and the Revolution
By Peter Schata
There is a long political history behind bananas becoming the fifth
most important food commodity in the world. They were one of the first
products where no expense was spared to create world markets for this
unmistakable fruit, turning whole countries over to banana production,
with stooge dictators controlled by the USA, in what aptly became
known as 'the banana republics'. Half a century after the big
Hollywood-style banana campaigns, the banana reflects ever more
clearly a world economic system concerned only with the kind of
'growth' that means control of the markets and massive profits. What
happens to the environment or to the people, who produce and consume
the fruit of such intentions, appears to be irrelevant.

In our democracies there is little self-determination, and we only
need to look at poverty and unemployment in Europe as well, to raise
doubts as to what is meant by 'free trade'. Such distortions of
language that hoodwink millions of people into accepting their lot,
need to be challenged and overturned. New language means new ideas,
new concepts. This is the revolution. We are this revolution!

Such a revolution is especially important if we are to find ways to
shift from the current forms of egocentric globalisation to a global
society that recognises the actual interrelatedness of all human
beings as well as our interconnectedness with the planet that supports
us.

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

This is biking in North and West Africa. Notice that no locals are
riding a bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOzl_hGRiko&feature=fvwrel

Nice music, right?

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 11, 11:42 am, "TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher"

Here's the next question for engineers:

HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THE 3 FEET LAW?

"Using a bicycle to commute to work, run errands, or for entertainment
value is an economical alternative to maintaining a car or buying gas
at the pump. It even sends an environmentally responsible message.
Unfortunately, it can also be dangerous.

Florida is one of 17 states that has enacted a three foot law with
regard to the spatial relationship between cyclists and automobiles.
One of the purposes of this rule is to cut down on Bicycle Accidents
and Car Accidents. The law states that drivers must grant cyclists a
three foot clearance at all times. Failure to do so can result in
being issued with a citation by law enforcement. On its surface the
law seems like a good idea, however, police officers find it difficult
to enforce, citing reasons such as difficulty determining whether a
driver is exactly three feet away from a bicyclist at all times."

http://injurylaw.labovick.com/2011/06/articles/bicycle-accidents/floridas-3foot-law-for-cyclists-needs-more-attention/

It doesn't take a lawyer to know this is bullshit. I noticed that a
long time ago! Is this some kind of mental masturbation? They even
made bumper stickers to make sure everybody got the point. Do you
think most people got that kind of accuracy with their their car? HAS
ANYONE EVER BEING TICKETED FOR VIOLATING THE LAW?

But the lawyers won't spare you from reality like some other people
do. They profit from it. Here is reality:

"In 2009, approximately, 630 bicyclists were killed in traffic
fatalities, a number that is 2% of all the traffic fatalities for the
year. Florida led the nation with 107 fatal bicycle accidents,
followed by California with 99. The NHTSA data also shows that car
accidents attributed to 51,000 injured bicyclists in 2009. Sadly,
8,000 of the injured bicyclists were children age 14 and under."

***

How can you hide from this reality, Mr. Engineer?

[Frank Krygowski]

> Do you agree that TAKING THE LANE would be safer that SHARING THE LANE?

I think sometimes it's safer. Sometimes there's no difference.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Apr 11, 10:46 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:

If a 3000 lbs auto hits or is hit by a 30 lbs bicycle you can bet your
last dollar that the bicyclewill come out the loser. I'm *NOT* saying
that bicycling is dangerous or that death needs to occur. All I'm
saying is that if a car and bicycle colide for any reason the bicycle
will lose. Bicyclistsneed to realize that and be on the lookout
accordingly for distracted drivers.

Example: I was riding along a quiet two land road here in town and an
approaching vanstarted to drift into my lane as it approached me from
ahead. I was able to take evasive action in time to avoid beinghit
because I was aware of what was going on ahead of me. It turned out
that the driver(male 40s or 50s) wasbusy yakking on his cell phone.
Now, if that van had hit me I can only surmize that my bicycle and I
would have suffered more damage than the van or its driver. It doesn't
matter where a bicyclist rides on the road, if he or she is struck by
a motor vehicle the bicyclist will suffer more damage than the driver
of the motor vehicle. This is why it's so important for a bicyclist to
be a ware of all that is going on around them including behind them.

Cheers

[TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher]

On Apr 11, 4:57 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> considered Tue, 10 Apr

> Average UK price for petrol yesterday* (price is a bit volatile at the
> moment, but trending upwards) was 1.4244 UK Pounds per litre, so a bit
> more than double.
>
> *prices fromhttp://www.petrolprices.com

At least they got more efficient cars to reflect that. And they pose
significantly less danger than trucks. We would have chaos here if we
had to drive Ford Focuses.