Dura-Ace 10v wheels: convert to 8/9/10 with freehub transplant?
Ryan Cousineau
potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...
1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?
2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?
3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
10mm hex flats to engage in there).
Thanks,
-RjC.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
bfd
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-8E8EC4...@news.telus.net...
>A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
> potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...
>
> 1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
> from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?
>
> 2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?
>
> 3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
> bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
> the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
> almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
> and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
> into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
> before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
> 10mm hex flats to engage in there).
>
hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.
For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):
In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
this:
Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.
The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!
Ryan Cousineau
"bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
because of the outboard bearings.
Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
detailed goodness there.
bfd
Remember, Dura Ace is Shimano's racing group. The DA 9 Model 7700 rear hub
weighed around 310 or 312g (WITHOUT SKEWER). In contrast, even Campy third
level rear hub, i.e., Centaur/Daytona/Athena, was lighter than DA 9 Model
7700 as it weighed in around 260g (again, without skewer).
Looking at the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, you'll see an oversized axle like
Campy for lighter weight; the DA 10 rear hub weighs like 260g without
skewer. However, in copying Campy's design, it moved the right, drive side
bearings inboard inside of the freehub body. This appears to be weaker in
design, but you don't see the axle breaking because it is oversized.
jim beam
arguably, it is. but the shallow teeth used mean high point loading on
the f/h body, so consequently, it needs to be made of something strong
to cope - i.e. steel or ti. and that's heavier than al. plenty of
aftermarket manufacturers make shimano style f/h bodies of al and they
get badly mangled. even the expensive ones. shimano, being smarter
than the others, realized that /if/ they went with al, they'd have to
use deeper teeth to get around the point loading issue, hence that
design difference. as for the inboard bearings, again, if pure weight
is the goal, go with an al axle, and the increased diameter necessary to
make it strong enough mean you can't get the bearings outboard anymore.
it's not a purists solution, thats for sure.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
> potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...
>
> 1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
> from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?
Nope, unique axle-
>
> 2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?
Available, yes.QBP has 'em as does shimano, USA
>
> 3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
> bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
> the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
> almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
> and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
> into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
> before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
> 10mm hex flats to engage in there).
Nope, unique hub, design very much like Campagnolo with an oversized
aluminum axle, 3/16(i think) balls...
>
> Thanks,
> -RjC.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> In article <mc2dnUHVmKVjbmjYnZ2dnUVZ_uKkn...@comcast.com>,
>
>
>
> "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> >news:rcousine-8E8EC4...@news.telus.net...
> > >A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
> > > potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...
>
> > > 1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
> > > from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?
>
> > > 2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?
>
> > > 3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
> > > bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
> > > the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
> > > almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
> > > and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
> > > into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
> > > before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
> > > 10mm hex flats to engage in there).
>
> > The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
> > hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.
>
> > For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
> > current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):
>
> > EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf
>
> > In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
> > this:
>
> > EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf
>
> > Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.
>
> > The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
> > the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
> > use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!
>
> Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
> thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
> because of the outboard bearings.
Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
marketing-
>
> Thanks also for reminding me about Shimano's techdocs site. Lots of
> detailed goodness there.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
bfd
wrote:
parts for it?
I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
body. What else needs to be replaced?
A Muzi
>>>>> A friend has a set of 10-speed Dura-Ace wheels. He wants to sell them. A
>>>>> potential buyer has an 8-speed bike. You see the problem...
>>>>> 1) Can these DA hubs be "downgraded" with a (apparently steel) freehub
>>>>> from the 8/9/10-compatible 105 hubs?
>>>>> 2) are these freehubs readily available in the parts channels yet?
>>>>> 3) are these DA hubs compatible with the mainstream Shimano freehub
>>>>> bodies that are available all over the place, not least possibly from
>>>>> the new purchaser's previous set of wheels? I'm thinking of the
>>>>> almost-universal Shimano hub that can be removed by pulling out the axle
>>>>> and then unscrewing the freehub body with a 10mm hex wrench inserted
>>>>> into where the axle was (it's great fun if you've never done this
>>>>> before, mainly because you can't really see or believe that there's any
>>>>> 10mm hex flats to engage in there).
>>> "bfd" <bfd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> The basic answer to the above is No. The design of the DA 10 Model 7800 rear
>>>> hub is substantially different from any other Shimano hub - 8, 9 or 10.
>>>> For example, DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub, looks almost identical to the
>>>> current Campy 9/10 rear hub (from 2000-2006):
>>>> http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecompo...
>>>> EV-FH-7800-2252_v1_m56577569830608915.pdf
>>>> In contrast, all other Shimano rear hubs, from 8, 9, and 10 are more like
>>>> this:
>>>> http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecompo...
>>>> EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf
>>>> Notice the different in ball bearing placement on the right, drive side.
>>>> The best bet for your friend is to either run 10 speed drive train and use
>>>> the DA 10 Model 7800 rear hub. Or just get any other Shimano rear hub and
>>>> use 8, 9 or 10. Good Luck!
>> Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>>> Thanks for that answer. Makes sense. But I wonder why they changed it? I
>>> thought the old design was considered superior to freewheels largely
>>> because of the outboard bearings.
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> Cuz whern they stop making 7700 rear hubs and your 7700 hub goes
>> south, no parts, gotta have DA..gotta upgrade to 10s to have DA-
>> marketing-
bfd wrote:
> This is interesting. Has Shimano stopped making the 7700 rear hub or
> parts for it?
>
> I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
> was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
> 1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
> body. What else needs to be replaced?
The argument is not that they are junk but rather that unique designs
have little support (can't use a '98 part or another model sub) and zero
aftermarket support. Not a terrible situation now but _potentially_ fatal.
OTOH if Shimano changes _all_ road hubs to this design you're home free!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Stoppedf making the 7700 front and rear hub about 3 years ago...parts
are still available but soon....
>
> I have 2 DA 9 7700 rear hubs. I had to replaced a crack cone once (it
> was expensive - like over $20!) Other than that, I just replace the
> 1/4" ball bearings periodically and put a little oil in the freehub
> body. What else needs to be replaced?
By not making a DA hub 8/9/10s compatible, even tho they could means
they want ya to upgraqde
bfd
on a Dura Ace 9 speed (model 7700) rear hub? I know the DA 9 speed
rear hub (model 7700) uses a ti freehub body, but if that is either
not available or too expensive to replace, could I use a freehub body
from an Ultegra 9 speed (model 6500) or 105 9 speed hub?
Alternatively, I know the DA 10 (model 7800) rear hub has a totally
unique and different design. Then again, 36h DA 10 rear hubs are
available on EBAY cheap (like $55 each!)
Qui si parla Campagnolo
No unfortunately. I tried this very thing when the customer didn't
want to spend the $ on a ti freehub...so I looked at 6500 but it would
not work.
>
> Alternatively, I know the DA 10 (model 7800) rear hub has a totally
> unique and different design. Then again, 36h DA 10 rear hubs are
> available on EBAY cheap (like $55 each!)
36h hubs are a great idea.
bfd
wrote:
be that much difference:
DA 9 model 7700 rear hub:
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FH/EV-FH-7700-1654_v1_m56577569830610236.pdf
Ultegra 9 model 6500 rear hub:
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FH/EV-FH-6500-1679_v1_m56577569830611839.pdf
Could you expand further on why the Ultegra 6500 freehub body wouldn't
fit on the DA 7700 rear hub? Thanks!
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> On Mar 13, 6:41 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <p...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:> On Mar 13, 10:42 am, "bfd" <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > OK, here's the question, can any Shimano 9 speed freehub body be used
> > > on a Dura Ace 9 speed (model 7700) rear hub? I know the DA 9 speed
> > > rear hub (model 7700) uses a ti freehub body, but if that is either
> > > not available or too expensive to replace, could I use a freehub body
> > > from an Ultegra 9 speed (model 6500) or 105 9 speed hub?
>
> > No unfortunately. I tried this very thing when the customer didn't
> > want to spend the $ on a ti freehub...so I looked at 6500 but it would
> > not work.
>
> This is interesting. looking at the tech docs, there doesn't seem to
> be that much difference:
>
>
> Ultegra 9 model 6500 rear hub:http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecompo...
>
> Could you expand further on why the Ultegra 6500 freehub body wouldn't
> fit on the DA 7700 rear hub? Thanks!
First the freehub sat either too low or too high and the cones from
the 7700 wouldn't allow the freehub to be adjusted and dished. I think
with a set of 6500 cones along with the freehub, but the 6500 freehub
didn't sit properly in the 7700 hub shell...it was a while ago.