seat post height question-how high?
anerobic
my impression is that the higher you can put your seatpost, the more
efficient your pedal stroke will be, since you get better extension.
obviously at some point you can get into hyper-extension pain at the
back of your knee if it's too high. is that the correct thinking, or
is there some other height that works better? i raise mine up little
by little until it starts to hurt behind my knees after a ride, then
lower it a few mm. i see people riding who effectively have much lower
seat heights but since they're riding with me i don't make any
suggestions....all thoughts and experiences appreciated. thanks
--
anerobic
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> My impression is that the higher you can put your seatpost, the more
> efficient your pedal stroke will be, since you get better extension.
> Obviously at some point you can get into hyper-extension pain at the
> back of your knee if it's too high. Is that the correct thinking, or
> is there some other height that works better? I raise mine up little
> by little until it starts to hurt behind my knees after a ride, then
> lower it a few mm. I see people riding who effectively have much lower
> seat heights but since they're riding with me I don't make any
> suggestions... all thoughts and experiences appreciated.
From what I see when out riding is that your idea is prevalent among
riders. There is a fairly simple test, even if the person making the
fit is not practiced in the art. If the hips swivel while pedaling,
seen from behind, then the saddle is too high. Of course there are
exceptions for people who have some physical handicap but the hip
swivel test is a good one for physically adept people.
Often, too low a position comes from fear of falling or not being able
to reach the road with the feet. The best fit can easily be gotten by
having a person skilled in the art watch while the person rides, even
at a slow pace. "Fit Kit" tries to quantify that so this does not
need a field test that may not give useful results. An observer must
know what to look for. Swiveling hips and too long a reach to the
bars are sure indicators.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
(Pete Cresswell)
>my impression is that the higher you can put your seatpost, the more
.....all thoughts and experiences appreciated. thanks
Start with a height that lets you sit on the saddle, heel on the pedal, knee
locked. That will give you a little bend in the knee when you're actually
pedaling with ball of foot on pedal.
Then go up/down from there as suites you.
Personally, I find 1/4" differences tb significant....maybe even 1/8"...so we're
not talking about a lot of deviation from the heel-on-pedal-knee-locked starting
point.
For rough ground, I might drop it a quarter or even a half inch. Raise it
upwards at your own risk. What feels better for a few minutes can have
negative consequences on your plumbing over the long run.
--
PeteCresswell
ritcho
An recent article on cyclingnews.com might help:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters12-20
Ritch
--
ritcho
peet9471
Get off your butt and ride. The seat is only there to protect the seat
post from dissappearing when you go over a bump in the road.
--
peet9471
Paul Kopit
wrote:
>From what I see when out riding is that your idea is prevalent among
>riders. There is a fairly simple test, even if the person making the
>fit is not practiced in the art. If the hips swivel while pedaling,
>seen from behind, then the saddle is too high. Of course there are
>exceptions for people who have some physical handicap but the hip
>swivel test is a good one for physically adept people.
I find that you saddle can be too high even though your hips don't
swivel. If the seat is a bit too high, you get pulled more toward the
point of the saddle to make the distance to the pedals shorter.
I find the when my leg is extended and I can just drop my heal below
the pedal axel by hyperextenting my leg, the seat is at proper height.
Said simply, my leg is slightly bent at bottom of stroke.
William Holiday
Greg Lemond(with Kent Gordis) writes on this subject in Complete Book of
Bicycling. He notes what you you have written and makes similar suggestions.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> An recent article on cyclingnews.com might help:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters12-20
What in this article did you find interesting enough to recommend that
we read the thread? To me it seems to beat around the bush and dodge
the real issues.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> From what I see when out riding is that your idea is prevalent
>> among riders. There is a fairly simple test, even if the person
>> making the fit is not practiced in the art. If the hips swivel
>> while pedaling, seen from behind, then the saddle is too high. Of
>> course there are exceptions for people who have some physical
>> handicap but the hip swivel test is a good one for physically adept
>> people.
> I find that you saddle can be too high even though your hips don't
> swivel. If the seat is a bit too high, you get pulled more toward
> the point of the saddle to make the distance to the pedals shorter.
I think you'll find that these folks have swiveling hips when they
ride on the ideal spot on the saddle and that they will probably
adjust their position more often if they slide forward, which is
usually a sign of a forward tilting saddle rather than height
adjustment.
> I find the when my leg is extended and I can just drop my heal below
> the pedal axle by hyperextending my leg, the seat is at proper
> height. Said simply, my leg is slightly bent at bottom of stroke.
This rule of thumb doesn't work because riders differ in their foot
size and angle to the horizontal which would make that measure
invalid. I was fortunate to have an expert adjust my bicycle merely
from riding around the parking lot slowly and it has suited me well.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Sandy
news:Eftyd.13887$_3.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Paul Kopit writes:
>> I find the when my leg is extended and I can just drop my heal below
>> the pedal axle by hyperextending my leg, the seat is at proper
>> height. Said simply, my leg is slightly bent at bottom of stroke.
>
> This rule of thumb doesn't work because riders differ in their foot
> size and angle to the horizontal which would make that measure
> invalid. I was fortunate to have an expert adjust my bicycle merely
> from riding around the parking lot slowly and it has suited me well.
>
> Jobst Brandt
What's up - your way or wrong ?
If you read and paid attention, you'd see Paul offered a general idea, not
precise millimetric formulae, then offered a personal observation on his own
geometry. He didn't offer a rule of thumb, and even if you take it that
way, it is a supplement to your own personal anecdote of how to do it. Get
over it - "The Book" doesn't mean you always have insight. Certainly you
lack the ability to engage in two-way communication with anything less than
gruff arrogance.
--
Bonne route,
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
Bill Sornson
In other breaking news, the sky is blue.
leestevens
I tried the same but in reality this is not so. My knees started
hurting, very sore back and neck. The seat was way to high. Don't mess
with your seat hieght, go to a professional bike shop and get them to
fit you up properly. I did, it was the best 35bucks i have spent on my
bike. If not give this a go.
http://www.strawberrybicycle.com/frames-custom.php
The measurments from this matched up with what the bike shop gave me.
See what you think. :D
--
leestevens
Sandy
news:LFtyd.32369$nP1....@twister.socal.rr.com...
> In other breaking news, the sky is blue.
>
Perhaps where you are ...
But today is promising at 11C and rain.
Jeff Starr
<leesteve...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>
>
>I tried the same but in reality this is not so. My knees started
>hurting, very sore back and neck. The seat was way to high. Don't mess
>with your seat hieght, go to a professional bike shop and get them to
>fit you up properly. I did, it was the best 35bucks i have spent on my
>bike. If not give this a go.
>http://www.strawberrybicycle.com/frames-custom.php
>The measurments from this matched up with what the bike shop gave me.
>See what you think. :D
Unless you have money, to burn, adjusting your seat is something that
you can do yourself.
And if you buy the bike from a LBS, they will adjust it at no charge.
Life is Good!
Jeff
Zog The Undeniable
I think you have it just about right. An excellent indication that your
saddle is too low is if you find you're pushing further back along the
saddle when pedalling more powerfully (uphill or into a headwind).
Tim McNamara
> "Bill Sornson" <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> a écrit dans le message de
> : news:LFtyd.32369$nP1....@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
>> In other breaking news, the sky is blue.
>>
> Perhaps where you are ... But today is promising at 11C and rain.
Then you may be having better cycling weather than us, with sunny
skies but -2C currently. That'll probably be the high temp today.
Tim McNamara
suppose it's quite possible that there is no definitive saddle height
for any individual. Every cycling book offers a different method.
There is the CONI method, the Guimard/Lemond/Hinault method, the
heel-on-pedal method, the 105% of inseam method, the Eddy B (1) and
Eddy B (2) methods, etc.
My own opinion is that fit is a dynamic issue and simply measuring
various skeletal dimensions only provides a starting point.
Everyone's body mass distribution, strength in various limbs,
flexibility, neck and back issues, etc all are factors in finding the
right fit. I think the "right" fit is the one that lets you do your
longest typical ride in comfort, with no neck, shoulder or back pain,
no knee pain, no hand or wrist pain, etc. For most people this will
not be an aerodynamic Euro road racer position.
So pick any of the methods you want, recognize that they're nothing
more than starting points, and then systematically vary adjustments
until the bike feels good to ride. Or if you can have Mr. Cinelli
adjust your fit for you, that'd be good too and would save you a lot
of time. ;-) I didn't have that option and it took me 25 years of
tweaking to find what seems like the "best" position for me. I
haven't adjusted anything on my main two bikes for 5 years or more, so
I guess it must be about right. FWIW the method outlined in Hinault's
and Genzling's book comes very close to what I ended up with.
Some people will end up looking like Maurizio Fondriest and others
will end up with positions like Sean Kelly's. What's right is what
works for you, on your bike, with your body.
Tom Paterson
>Every cycling book offers a different >method. There is the CONI method, the
Guimard/Lemond/Hinault method, the
>heel-on-pedal method, the 105% of inseam method, the Eddy B (1) and
>Eddy B (2) methods, etc.
Not to mention the Eddy Merckx method.
>My own opinion is that fit is a dynamic >issue (snip)
Mr. Merckx can be seen on film demonstrating his (same) opinion. --TP
john_t...@my-deja.com
> I was fortunate to have an expert adjust my bicycle merely
> from riding around the parking lot slowly and it has suited me well.
Was this a one-time event?
Do you always ride in the same clothes and with the same footwear?
John Thurston
Juneau, Alaska
Sandy
news:1103837737.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Those are fact questions ! Don't be so rude as to ask him to answer.
Instead, better to go the that parking lot and watch his ass wiggle.
Emulate. Done.
ritcho
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org Wrote:
> Ritch O? writes:
> [snip]
>
>
>
> > An recent article on cyclingnews.com might help:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters12-20
>
> What in this article did you find interesting enough to recommend that
> we read the thread? To me it seems to beat around the bush and dodge
> the real issues.
>
> Jobst Brandt
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
A real issue for most people is getting their seat height adjusted
properly. One way is to have a professional person fit them, another is
to DIY. The cited article provided a concise method outlining how
someone could go about setting their own seat height, written by an
author that specialises in fitting people to bikes.
Regards,
Ritch
--
ritcho
Tim McNamara
Yes, he'd have been faster without carrying an entire toolbox full of
wrenches in his pockets (I remember seeing film of him descending,
standing on the pedals and ajdusting his saddle height. Might be in
_Stars and Water Carriers_). ;-)
Philip Holman
"anerobic" <anerobi...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote in
message news:anerobi...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
>
> my impression is that the higher you can put your seatpost, the more
> efficient your pedal stroke will be, since you get better extension.
Higher isn't necessarily better.
> obviously at some point you can get into hyper-extension pain at the
> back of your knee if it's too high. is that the correct thinking, or
> is there some other height that works better? i raise mine up little
> by little until it starts to hurt behind my knees after a ride, then
> lower it a few mm. i see people riding who effectively have much
> lower
> seat heights but since they're riding with me i don't make any
> suggestions....all thoughts and experiences appreciated. thanks
87% of your floor to crotch height with no shoes = distance from center
of bottom bracket to top of seat along centerline of seat tube. This is
a starting point. Adjust up or down to your own personal preference.
All of my bicycles are set at 31.5 inches and I never mess with it.
Phil H
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tim,
Merckx adjusting on-the-fly might be in that film. Here's a comment on
similar Merckx adjustments in "Sunday in Hell":
"Campy seatposts: These seatposts were designed with the binder bolt on
top under the seat. This design made it impossible to properly adjust
your saddle. You were lucky to find a wrench small enough to tighten
the damn thing down. If you like your saddle pushed far back, as most
people did, forget it. There's a 20 minute segment in "A Sunday in
Hell" of Eddy Merckx f@#king with this problem during the race.
Strangely, many Italian manufacturers still produce a version of this
ridiculous design."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/team/teams/5280/2004/?id=diaries/lionel_giro
Merckx was famous for seat-fussing even before his back injury.
In case anyone wants some quick round-ups of bike films for the
holidays, here are two sites:
http://www.bikehighway.com/moviereviews.htm
http://www.massbike.org/info1/movies.htm
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I was fortunate to have an expert adjust my bicycle merely from
>> riding around the parking lot slowly and it has suited me well.
> Was this a one-time event? Do you always ride in the same clothes
> and with the same footwear?
How many times do you think this is needed. I had a fairly good
position when I started riding a good bicycle and put in many miles
before Cino Cinelli asked me to ride around in the yard in front of his
frame factory in Milano. I got a longer stem and adjusted the saddle
height a bit and that was the end of it.
I don't care about affects of clothing on position because all my
clothes are within a couple of millimeters thickness of each other, an
amount less than any adjustment that makes any sense. As for
footwear, if I'm not riding bicycling shoes then it doesn't matter,
I'm not going far. As I mentioned, I use SH TO-92 shoes to ride to
work an wear them all day in the office.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
(Pete Cresswell)
>I got a longer stem and adjusted the saddle
>height a bit and that was the end of it.
Which begs a question that's always nagged at me: now to mark the post so I can
return it to that magic height after, say, riding down a long rocky descent with
it lowered a few inches?
I told somebody that I was scoring it with a packing knife and they replied that
that was weakening the post significantly.
Tried a little spray paint, but it comes right off after a few adjustments.
Seems like the makers should etch a few reference marks on their posts - and, in
fact, I've got a post from RaceFace where that is the case. But what about
unmarked posts?
--
PeteCresswell
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear Pete,
Tape a zip-tie high up on the back of your seat post,
leaving its lower end free.
Trim the lower end of the zip tie to show the right length,
where the seat-post goes into the frame.
When you lower your seat, the free end of the zip tie curls
out behind you.
When you raise your seat, you simply stop when the zip tie
indicates perfection has been achieved again.
Bright yellow tape and a neon-pink zip tie will show riders
behind how proud you are of your cunning.
Carl Fogel
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Often, too low a position comes from fear of falling or not being able
> to reach the road with the feet....
I prefer to have my seat low enough that I can reach the ground with my
hand. Falling over hurts much less. :)
--
Tom Sherman
Tim McNamara
> RE/
>>I got a longer stem and adjusted the saddle height a bit and that
>>was the end of it.
>
> Which begs a question that's always nagged at me: now to mark the
> post so I can return it to that magic height after, say, riding down
> a long rocky descent with it lowered a few inches?
I never adjust the saddle while riding (heck, I sometimes don't take
out the seat post for any purpose for years at a time), but I do mark
the post with a small punch, making a mark on the post just at the
edge of the seat lug. A punch, a light tap with a hammer, and
voila! A guide mark.
Mike Krueger
post so I can return it to that magic height after, say, riding down
a long rocky descent with it lowered a few inches? >>
I use a Sharpie pen to scribe a line-metallic silver ink on black components,
or standard black ink on silver parts. Unless wiped off with a solvent such as
alchohol or acetone, it holds up pretty well.
Peter Cole
news:ritcho...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
>
> A real issue for most people is getting their seat height adjusted
> properly. One way is to have a professional person fit them, another is
> to DIY. The cited article provided a concise method outlining how
> someone could go about setting their own seat height, written by an
> author that specialises in fitting people to bikes.
This article wasn't very useful. First he says:
"I have an advantage in setting other peoples' seat height because I can
see them. We can't see ourselves and what I have suggested in this forum is
how I go about setting my own seat height as I can't see myself either."
Implying (as Jobst points out) that the best way is having someone watch
you pedal. Apparently this guy doesn't know anybody other than himself with
this skill...
He then counsels you to raise your seat 3mm at a time (yeah, right) until
you are "obviously an increment too high". According to him: "Obviously
too high means that you will start to move laterally on the seat a bit or
feel jerky at the bottom of the stroke." At which point you're supposed to
lower 5mm.
It seems that it's just a roundabout way of saying raise the seat until
your hips rock, and that the best way of finding that point is to have
somebody else watch. The implication is that adjustment should (or can) be
perfected to 2mm.
Tom Paterson
> The implication is that adjustment should >(or can) be perfected to 2mm.
There once was a rider named Merckx
Famed for giving his saddles a twerkx.
Said he from a clench,
As he reached for his wrench:
"I moved it, but now it is werckx!".
Don't worry, be happy. Holidays!
--TP
(Pete Cresswell)
>Tape a zip-tie high up on the back of your seat post,
>leaving its lower end free.
>
>Trim the lower end of the zip tie to show the right length,
>where the seat-post goes into the frame.
The genius of simplicity.
Thanks.
--
PeteCresswell
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>RE/
Dear Pete,
Aaargh!
Mike Krueger's Sharpie-pen-marking suggestion elsewhere in
this thread makes my tape-and-zip-tie scheme look like
something that Rube Goldberg would call over-complicated.
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Paterson) wrote:
Dear Tim,
Others abide our question. Thou art free.
M. Arnold
Paul Kopit
>Seems like the makers should etch a few reference marks on their posts - and, in
>fact, I've got a post from RaceFace where that is the case. But what about
>unmarked posts?
Use a punch and punch a dot. I've used a concrete nail. I usually
have a piece of black tape on the post.
(Pete Cresswell)
>Aaargh!
>
>Mike Krueger's Sharpie-pen-marking suggestion elsewhere in
>this thread makes my tape-and-zip-tie scheme look like
>something that Rube Goldberg would call over-complicated.
Maybe....
--
PeteCresswell
ItsikH
anerobic Wrote:
> my impression is that the higher you can put your seatpost, the more
> efficient your pedal stroke will be, since you get better extension.
> back of your knee if it's too high. is that the correct thinking, or is
> there some other height that works better? i raise mine up little by
> little until it starts to hurt behind my knees after a ride, then lower
> it a few mm. i see people riding who effectively have much lower seat
> heights but since they're riding with me i don't make any
learned that "the higher the better". It was just a little too high. I
climbed mt. Carmel at the end of a 100kms jorney. As I got up there, I
went off the bike and... fell to the ground. My kneews were totally
disfunctional. Pain came a few minutes later. It was the back side of
the knee.
My knees heeled in just a few days of rest, but the lesson is simple:
Make sure the seat is not too high. A bit low is preferred over a bit
high. If you feel the back of your knees lower your seat immediately.
BTW, a seat way too low might also cause knee problems because the
joint tends to bend outwards (away from the bicycle).
--
ItsikH
I'm an outdoor person! Enjoy travelling by bicycle. Also enjoy playing
music. My home page is a gallery of pictures from my trip to Spain
Baird Webel
ItsikH <ItsikH...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> My knees heeled in just a few days of rest, but the lesson is simple:
> Make sure the seat is not too high. A bit low is preferred over a bit
> high.
are you basing this on anything other than your experience? Mine was
the opposite with knee problems coming from the seat being too low.
Baird
ItsikH
OK. Inexperienced, beginning cyclers are more likely to sit too low. As
enthusiastic cyclers tend to go as high as possible, they are more
likely to go too high than too low. When too high, you might not feel
any pain before harm is done, that's what my experience tells me.
LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h 0 0_d 0 t_c 0 m
> [Steve Hogg] counsels you to raise your seat 3mm at a time
> (yeah, right)
Is 3mm too much, or too little?
--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)
John Dacey
Long live the new, undisputed Heavyweight Poet Laureate Of RBT: Tom
Paterson.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------
carl...@comcast.net
0_d 0 t_c 0 m <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote:
>Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> [Steve Hogg] counsels you to raise your seat 3mm at a time
>> (yeah, right)
>
>Is 3mm too much, or too little?
Dear L.,
Well . . . 3mm is about 0.12 inches (3/25.4), plus or minus
around 0.02 inches (0.5/25.4).
It's also about the thickness of three credit cards, plus or
minus the thickness of two business cards.
More practically, it's just short of an eighth of an inch,
about twice the thickness of the sole of your sock.
To make such fine adjustments on a typically stubborn seat
post, you'll need some good reference markings. Try drawing
a line of very short dashes up the back with a Sharpie.
Some riders believe that they can feel such small
differences immediately.
Other riders believe that it takes a while, but that they
can still notice the otherwise imperceptible difference by
how their knees (or hips) feel after a long ride.
A few of us are curious whether anyone can reliably tell the
difference if someone else raises or lowers the seat 3mm (or
just fiddles with it and doesn't change it at all).
Is there really such sensitivity (either immediately or
after a long ride), or is it just an example of the kind of
expectation-result that blind testing eliminates? When we
know which way we're changing things, we tend to expect
results, and this expectation is often shown by blind
testing to overwhelm our actual judgement.
Complicating the question is the tipping-point. If you keep
raising (or lowering) the seat in steps too small to be
noticed over a comfortable range, you'll still reach a point
where the very next Xmm increase becomes noticeable after a
long ride.
Another step (or two or three), and you'll reach the point
where the rider notices the difference right away.
In both cases, the rider would understandably think that the
increase of Xmm indicated his sensitivity, when in fact his
range of comfort and sensitivity might have actually been
X+X+X+X+X+Xmm.
Given that the usual aim is to raise the seat until an
observer notices that the rider's hips are beginning to
wobble, 3mm is an impressively fine distinction. After all,
the tipping of the hips for an extra 1/8th inch of leg
travel would be quite small--and the rider would probably
compensate unconsciously by bending his ankle to move the
ball of his foot an extra eighth of an inch downward.
Still, you'll probably be happy if you move your seat up (or
down) in tiny increments until it feels good enough (or you
get bored, declare victory, tighten the seat-post, and go
riding). Even if the seat height failed to match some
Platonic ideal, the human body is generally capable of
adapting to ranges of the kind often discussed here.
Here's an example that I've mentioned before of what can be
done by athletes unfamiliar with the importance of fussing
over equipment:
. . . the unbelievable Mexican runners who
deflated the egos of Colorado's high-altitude mountain-pass
racers some years ago. They came from the Sierra Madre,
lied about their ages because they were afraid of being
refused entry, started off on sandals made from old tires
to meet race requirements, and even took them off to run
bare-foot with enormous leads in the Leadville 100-mile
race:
http://www.cozine.com/archive/cc1994/00060296.htm
[the link seems to be dead now, so here's part of the
article]
" . . . last year's first-place finisher, 55-year-old
Victoriano Churro, a Tarahumara Indian from northwestern
Mexico. Fearing he'd be considered too old to participate,
Churro initially lied about his age, claiming to be 38.
The amazing thing is, he looked so good, no one even
questioned him. He completed the race in just over 20
hours."
"The modest, sedate Tarahumaras, two of whom finished second
and fifth, made a memorable impression with their loin
cloths, tunic-style shirts, peaked caps, and sandals pieced
together from discarded tires scavenged from the Leadville
landfill. The sandals qualified as distance footwear because
the tires still had some tread."
"The Tarahumaras' appearance at the Twin Lakes aid station
prompted one volunteer to tell her young son, 'Don't ever
ask me for $150 running shoes again.'"
I like to imagine these guys coming up behind Lance on
WalMart bikes with rusty chains.
Carl Fogel
LioNiNoiL_a t_Y a h 0 0_d 0 t_c 0 m
> Here's an example that I've mentioned before of what can be
> done by athletes unfamiliar with the importance of fussing
> over equipment:
>
> [the link seems to be dead now...]
Here's a working link:
http://www.indigenouspeople.net/tarafeat.htm
Impressive example of the relative unimportance of having the latest 'n'
greatest equipment.
carl...@comcast.net
0_d 0 t_c 0 m <nob...@devnull.spamcop.net> wrote:
>Carl Fogel wrote:
>
>> Here's an example that I've mentioned before of what can be
>> done by athletes unfamiliar with the importance of fussing
>> over equipment:
>>
>> [the link seems to be dead now...]
>
>Here's a working link:
>
>http://www.indigenouspeople.net/tarafeat.htm
>
>Impressive example of the relative unimportance of having the latest 'n'
>greatest equipment.
Dear L.,
On an unrelated (I hope) point . . .
Oh, dear, there's Ken Chlouber, a cheery soul, but a classic
example of how easily a life in politics can lead to loss of
ethics.
Ten or fifteen years ago, Chlouber gave an odd interview in
which he praised the integrity of a fellow politician named
Miller, with whom Chlouber had worked in the mines before
they embraced a life of crime:
"'I worked underground with him [Miller] from the mid-1970s
until the mine closed,' Chlouber recalled. 'I can absolutely
count on him. He has most incredible personal integrity of
any man I've met.'"
Chlouber then offered this example of Miller's "incredible
personal integrity," apparently with a straight face:
"When Chlouber used to set off too much explosive charge in
mine, he [Chlouber] recalled, Miller covered for him by
blaming it on an electrical problem or some such thing."
Chlouber's standard for honesty seemed to be how readily
Miller would lie to cover up for him. It made Colorado
politics more interesting.
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Here's an example that I've mentioned before of what can be done by
>> athletes unfamiliar with the importance of fussing over equipment:
> Here's a working link:
> http://www.indigenouspeople.net/tarafeat.htm
> Impressive example of the relative unimportance of having the latest
> and greatest equipment.
Let us not forget Abebe Bikila, a runner unequaled in history:
http://www.ethiopians.com/abebe.htm
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org