Can Cycling replace a car without problem?
Vrindavan
1. Can Cycling replace a car completely for transportation without problem?
For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
If there are problems, what are they?
2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
or product that cater for my situation.
3. Any website or group on the Internet advocate
use only bicycle for tansportation or commute?
(family who own no car at all)
Zoot Katz
<MPG.1608cad22...@news.hkbn.net>, Vrindavan
<vrin...@onebox.com> wrote:
>
>1. Can Cycling replace a car completely for transportation without problem?
>For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
>
>If there are problems, what are they?
>
There's lots of problems and they're all in your head. People live
without cars much better than they live with them. There are added
challenges to getting around solely with a bicycle but no insurmountable
problems. Things can be delivered and taxis hired. When absolutely
necessary a car can be rented. Figure the $6500 saved by not having a
car is going to be spent elsewhere. The fewer taxis and car rentals
during the year means you get a nicer vacation.
>
>2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
>He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
>
Children, one year and older, can be carried in a baby seat or kids
trailer. I'd suggest the trailer so it can be used for hauling other
things and still serviceable after the kids are riding their own bikes.
>I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
>or product that cater for my situation.
>
Any sturdy, dependable, comfortable bike will do. Tires, lights and
drive train must be reliable.
>3. Any website or group on the Internet advocate
>use only bicycle for tansportation or commute?
>(family who own no car at all)
Over two million of them.
http://www.google.com/search?q=car+free&sourceid=opera&num=0
There are some who take it to rabid extremism.
Much depends on where you live and the distances involved. If there is a
useful public transit system or reasonable, enjoyable walking, then it's
much easier to scrap the albatross.
--
zk
Alex Rodriguez
says...
>
>
>1. Can Cycling replace a car completely for transportation without problem?
>For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
>If there are problems, what are they?
You can do it, you just need to have the time to do it. A bike will
be slower in most instances, so you will need to take that into account
>2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
>He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
Use a trailer.
>I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
>or product that cater for my situation.
There are a couple of companies that make trailers for bicycles.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)
Dan Gillette
> be slower in most instances, so you will need to take that into account
That depends where you live. In urban and tight suburban areas, bikes are
often faster than cars for trips up to ten miles. In fact, in the SF Bay
Area, during rush hour, I have completed 45 mile trips in just fifteen
minutes more than the time it would take a car on the highway. I was pulling
a trailer, by the way.
It is not hard to live car free in suburban areas, if you make the
transition right. The first thing to do is to not expect to save much money
in the first year. Instead, take the money you would be spending on the car
and invest in a good commuting bike, rain gear, trailer, shoes (living car
free means that if you walk as well as bike, your shoes will wear out
faster, but it is worth it in the health benefits) and quality luggage. If
you take those steps, it should be a pretty painless. There are also books
on getting around without a car for many areas around cities.
I have lived carfree in Boston, St. Paul and the SF Bay Area. Suprisingly, I
have found the SF area to be the hardest of the three to let go of the car,
primarily due to public transit not going where I need to go and that it is
more spread out. I know share a car with my partner and it is mostly used
for taking the dog to hiking trails, though that will change soon when I
replace my BOB trailer with a Burley.
As far as bikes go, it depends on your riding style. My medium to long
distance bike is a Vision R44 recumbent and my short commute bike is a one
speed BMX bike that I don't have to worry about getting banged up on the
train (Caltrain bike cars require leaning up to five bikes against each
other). When I was in Boston and St. Paul, and less reliant on public
transit, my main city bike was a very light mountain bike with rigid fork,
slick tires and a road racing rear cluster (12-21).
Hope this info helps.
- Dan
BudMan
need for one. I live in the 'burbs. The round trip distance from my house
to work is about 14 miles. Since I have access to secure bike parking, my
office, and a shower I ride my bike to work. If there is only a few items
to pick up at the store, my errands around town are done with the bike. On
the other hand, I am a realist. I cannot expect to tote a cart full of
groceries from the supermarket to my house. Way back when I did do that
with an old Burley trailer, but not now. I use the car. When I have to
pick up my children after school from sports practice I use the car.
Basically, my hybrid style has me in the car about 20 mile a week and on the
commuter bike about 70. Last month my total riding was 745miles bike 225
car. I think I won.
My commuter is a modified mountain bike. I replaced the knobbies with slick
tires and added a high end lighting system. I can almost cruise as fast on
it as my race bike.
"Vrindavan" <vrin...@onebox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1608cad22...@news.hkbn.net...
Pete
You can do it, but it takes a lot of rethinking. A much easier process is
changing from a 2 car family to a one car family. Usually, one car is used
almost exclusively to transport one person to work. It sits, unused, about
22 hours a day. Replace that car, and you're halfway there.
Pete
Gary
doesn't take too much longer than in the car. I have a gatehouse at work
with security guards in it so I could leave my bike unlocked and it would
most likely be okay but I lock it just in case. I also have showers which
makes a big difference. If I had to ride instead of just wanting to ride it
may be a different story. I don't intentionally ride if I know it's going
to rain but have been caught in it and it's not so bad. The people who work
with me think I'm nuts but that's okay because I KNOW I am. They ask me why
I would want to ride that far and I always ask them if they had a choice to
drive their car to work or golf (that's what they spend their time doing) to
work which would they pick. I also bring up golf expense when they fall
over in shock when I tell them what I paid for my bike.
As for toting a child or children, I use a Kool-Stop child trailer. I can
pull my 4-yr-old son and 1-yr-old grandson both in it fairly easily. It
also can carry a lot of groceries and cars give me a lot of slack when I'm
pulling it. They can't tell I'm pulling cargo and not a child until they
get around me. Anyway, I'm sure there are problems with going car-free
completely but I'm also sure they can be eliminated without too much
trouble. I'm thinking about selling my Jeep and getting a Harley so I'd be
kinda cutting my car dependence in half ; )
We may all have to go car-free if the gas keeps going up or when we run out.
If that happens we'll already be in shape.
Gary
Brian Huntley
Vrindavan wrote:
I technically 'own' a car, but the plates expired last October, and before
that, I don't think it had been run twice in six months. I live in an urbane
setting.
I have been commuting to work by bike for about 6 years (5-9 km.) We use a
combination of the bike, the bike plus trailer, and a kid's wagon (via foot) to
shop for groceries. For large items, we use delivery when possible. On vacation
this summer, we rented a car for about a week, as we had miles to cover and
camping and such to do.
Problems? Weather - it snows here, but I have never missed a day due to
weather. Flats are a bother - I carry at least one tested spare and a pump and
a patch kit almost always. Heat, too, is a bother - I have to change clothes at
work for about 5 months a year.
From about 10 months of age to 4y10m,. my son rode in a no-name 'baby seat'
behind me. Now, he's on an Adams Trail-a-bike. This has proven so popular I end
up giving rides around the block to all the kids in the neighborhood every
evening. The baby seat was first fitted on a 26" commuter, then a 700c hybrid
(with a bit of coercing of the mounting gear.) If you use one, I strongly
suggest (1) mounting a standard rack first, and (2) get a good mirror so you
can see your kid. I've used a cargo trailer, and can't see hauling a kid around
like that (since the wheels don't follow the bike's, they get a lot of bumps.)
Gene
> behind me. Now, he's on an Adams Trail-a-bike. This has proven so popular I end
> up giving rides around the block to all the kids in the neighborhood every
> evening. The baby seat was first fitted on a 26" commuter, then a 700c hybrid
> (with a bit of coercing of the mounting gear.) If you use one, I strongly
> suggest (1) mounting a standard rack first, and (2) get a good mirror so you
> can see your kid. I've used a cargo trailer, and can't see hauling a kid around
> like that (since the wheels don't follow the bike's, they get a lot of bumps.)
I'm not sure if I'd want a trailer for daily commuting either, as not only is it
unwieldy in traffic, but storing it at daycare and in the house can be a problem
too. Another thing to think about is if you're planning on combining cycling with
mass transit, you can put a bike with a babyseat on a bus's bike rack.
I just rode with the youngun on the back in a Rhode Gear seat/rack, and a pair of
panniers on the front rack for shopping. Much more maneuvrable (we actually went
off-road many times) and he liked having me right in front of him.
bowman
problem?
> For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
>
> If there are problems, what are they?
I didn't have a car on the road for a year or so when I was living in Maine
once. The winters get long. Assuming you live some place that has serious
winters, that is the biggest problem I found. I didn't have a trailer, so
grocery shopping was about more frequent, and I'd have to suck a ride if I
wanted to move something big.
If you work, and ride every day, and *have* to ride everyday, you pretty
much can tell how the day is going to go during the morning commute :).
Vrindavan
Thus, we need transportation during shopping, weekend trips,
or on short vacation. Plus take into consideration of my little kid.
"Pete" <p...@usaf.org> wrote in message news:<Crvn7.115555$nh4.15...@typhoon.neo.rr.com>...
rorschandt
a)public transport
b)amount of snow and how quickly it is plowed off.
Where I live both suck big and hard. I rode and fell many times on rutted
icy streets, or those where the center was clear, but the section I was
forced to ride in was an obstacle course. I never had a trailer to tow
during my "car free" years (a.k.a. "The 5 Winters of Hell"), but I have
ridden on winter roads that were the equivalent of frozen farm fields, that
during warm times were smooth asphalt. I couldn't imagine towing a trailer
full of cargo, let alone a child I loved,over such things.
*You could end up with medical expenses totaling what your bills for a car
were or more. Although my cardio vascular system was in great shape (when I
didnt have strepp or pneumonia) the rest of my body suffered for it, some
parts of the body become severely damaged when overused or stressed while
cold . Knees REALLY don't like it.
*Winter can complicate *ALL* of your transportation activities.
* Riding in snow up to your hubs has a certain charm for the first mile or
so, and then...
Ever notice that many times when someone has a hobby that they turn into a
business, that after a while they don't like it anymore? This could happen
with bicycles when it goes from fun to everyday transport. "Having" to get
up and commute daily in icy conditions is way different than "getting to"
try your new bike in the snow on christmas morn.
Part of my interest in trikes has developed because for fitness sake, I
would like to ride all year long without falling over, although it is
unlikely that I will ever again rely soley on human power as long as I live
in this climate.
If you're gonna do it where it gets cold, get a trike.
Rorschandt
Been there, done that, not doing it again.
bowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:%EAn7.269$M_2.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Keith Rickert
<rorsc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I commuted to work on bike pretty much everyday this past winter through
snow and ice (suburban Philly). Snow removal was not great out here, but
the deepest snowfalls this past year happened on weekends.
My tips:
1) During serious winter, you are going to want as short a commute as possible.
During the rest of the year, you might think about lengthening your
commute, or commuting over a longer distance - during the winter, my 3.4
miles got really quite long.
2) Studded tires. They were godawful expensive, but worth it for me. I
didn't fall once, and only had to put a foot down unexpectedly a few
times. Heavy, slow, and what a relief to take them off again later, but I
won't ride without them in snow and ice again.
3) To go along with 2 - take it slow. This also fits into 1.
Keith
--
Keith Rickert | "You want the truth? You can't handle the
rick...@netaxs.com | truth! No truth-handler, you! Bah! I
keith_...@merck.com | deride your truth-handling abilities!"
(note change) | Sideshow Bob, The Simpsons
Tom Kunich
problem?
> For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
Maybe. It depends on your own case. If you live in a city with expensive
parking and insurance and difficult to find car services such as gas
stations and the like then it makes a bicycle all the more attractive.
You can alway rent a car or ride a taxi on those occasions that are
appropriate.
If you live int he suburbs and need to travel long distances to work or
to buy groceries and the like and public transportation is non-existent
or poorly designed, then it would be a bad selection.
All of the cases in between you have to supply the lists of positives
and negatives.
> 2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
> He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
Child seats or trailers are an option.
> I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
> or product that cater for my situation.
Maybe you can't but perhaps you can. You have to plan it all out before
you jump. And it isn't an all or nothing deal you know. You can own a
car that you only use on special occasions.
Gary Mc
the proponents of car free living live in Florida or California.
I think that it is more practical to cut car costs and pollution by
minimizing trips. One requirement of where we bought a home in Utah
was to live within walking distance of a Grocery Store and other
shopping centers. My wife carpools part of the year and used the bus
until they relocated the route. Once I retired, our family lived with
one car until the kids got old enough to require ferrying from place
to place.
Gary Mc
Rans Stratus
Salt Lake City
Ken Kobayashi
wrote:
>3. Any website or group on the Internet advocate
>use only bicycle for tansportation or commute?
>(family who own no car at all)
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/ has some useful articles on this topic.
Gary
> Ever notice that many times when someone has a hobby that they turn into a
> business, that after a while they don't like it anymore? This could happen
> with bicycles when it goes from fun to everyday transport. "Having" to get
> up and commute daily in icy conditions is way different than "getting to"
> try your new bike in the snow on christmas morn.
I agree. There's a big difference in getting to and having to. I'm not
trying to toot my own horn but I consider myself a pretty good artist and I
love to draw. What I don't love is to have to draw something for someone
else, especially if I don't meet their expectations ("I don't look like
that! That makes me look fat!"). If I had to do it for a job I don't think
I'd like my job very well after a while.
Jym Dyer
> without problem? For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
=v= I got rid of my car a decade ago, and have used bikes for
everyday transport, weekend day trips, and touring vacations
ever since.
=v= After meeting up with like-minded folks, I've owned, shared,
and borrowed a variety of bike trailers and cargo bikes that
handle most of my hauling needs. 30 of us were sharing an old
pickup truck for awhile, but it wasn't used much and the owner
had it scrapped. We now rent trucks for the rare occasions when
we need them, and that saves us a lot of money even over the old
junker, which after all had to be garaged and maintained.
> If there are problems, what are they?
=v= The main problems I've encountered have to do with motorists
who don't respect my right to the road. Another challenge is
coordinating things socially with friends who insist on driving
everywhere.
=v= Mostly I do alright getting around, but for longer journeys
I run into gaps in the transportation infrastructure, which is
designed under the assumption that everyone has a car. Stuff
like transferring between transit systems that aren't synched,
or which have different policies regarding bicycles. I've made
a good part of this easier by having a folding bike, though.
> 2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
> He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the
> road.
=v= This depends on his age. Solutions range (in age) from a
bike seat to a trailer to a little extension with an extra wheel
and some pedals so that the kid can ride behind you.
> 3. Any website or group on the Internet advocate use only
> bicycle for tansportation or commute? (family who own no car
> at all)
=v= Lots, though a good starting point is this email list
devoted to the car-free:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree
If you tell us where you live, we might know of organizations
local to you.
<_Jym_>
Brian Huntley
> Living in a place with winters, I must concur. I noticed that many of
> the proponents of car free living live in Florida or California.
>
> I think that it is more practical to cut car costs and pollution by
> minimizing trips. One requirement of where we bought a home in Utah
> was to live within walking distance of a Grocery Store and other
> shopping centers. My wife carpools part of the year and used the bus
> until they relocated the route. Once I retired, our family lived with
> one car until the kids got old enough to require ferrying from place
> to place.
I'm in Toronto, which has winter. Not a whole lot of snow by Canadian
standards, but enough. Certainly more than Florida or California.
As to your second point, I agree whole-heartedly. I did NOT bike
commute when I lived in the sprawling suburbs, but do now that I live
downtown. And although I'm downtown, I'm in one of the 'villages' of
Toronto, where everything is within walking distance (including
transit for when it's needed.) A 'Little Tykes' "Explorer" wagon with
upgraded wheels[1] complements the bikes for weekly grocery shopping,
as well. Before my son came along, I used a home-made bike trailer
(big rubbermaid bin and 2x20 wheels) but the wagon has enough room for
him and a reasonable load, and if it's a big load, then hey, he walks
home.
[1] The stock wheels were horribly loud on sidewalks, so I switched
them with some old 10" stroller wheels. Easier to pull now, too.
Jym Dyer
> they turn into a business, that after a while they don't like
> it anymore? This could happen with bicycles when it goes
> from fun to everyday transport.
=v= I've been doing it for over a decade and it's still a joy.
Some folks in the Netherlands are born, live, and die on a bike,
enjoying it all the way.
=v= Cars, on the other hand, are so rotten everyday transport
that they require the largest and most far-reaching marketing
campaign in the world to constantly brainwash people to believe
that they're enjoyable.
<_Jym_>
Keeper of the Mighty Macaulay
> 2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
> He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
>
> I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
> or product that cater for my situation.
I'm sure a lot of folks out there will say this is wack, but in my
travels to Europe and China this summer, I noticed that many cyclists
regularly have passengers on their bike racks on platforms on their
top-tubes. Less litigious countries with more people used to biking and
bikes on the road, of course. One cyclist encountered on a road in
Hungary had a small child (I'm guessing around 2yo) in a seat secured to
his rear rack and another smaller child in a box secured to his top
tube. More than one person on a bike seems to be standard practice in
countries with less marketing hype to boost fear levels. Let's face it,
if you get hit by a car with a kid on your rack or top tube, even with a
safety seat and helmet, or worse yet, if the trailer you've got your kid
in gets hit by a car, it's quite likely that they will be killed. If
you can secure 40lbs of gear onto a rack in a milk crate, you can
probably do the same with a kid and as long as you can ride a relatively
smooth line, stay calm and present yourself as a valid vehicle in
traffic, you should be fine.
Mitch Haley
>
> I'm sure a lot of folks out there will say this is wack, but in my
> travels to Europe and China this summer, I noticed that many cyclists
> regularly have passengers on their bike racks on platforms on their
> top-tubes. Less litigious countries with more people used to biking and
> bikes on the road, of course.
Many Americans would indeed think that nuts. Some cops would likely
arrest you for imagined violations of child restraint laws. OTOH,
some of the same people think nothing of sitting a couple of kids
on top of their lawn mowers, which is a far more hazardous situation.
(yes, the fellow a couple of houses down the road from me ALWAYS
carries two kids on his big garden tractor, while towing a 4'
mower BEHIND the tractor. I give you one guess as to what happens
if a kid falls off.)
I don't think it's our litigious society, I think it has more to
do with programming Americans to think of bicycles as inherently
dangerous. It makes them feel better if they run over one, as the
cyclist shouldn't have been doing anything that dangerous in the
first place.
Mitch.
paul
> I commuted to work on bike pretty much everyday this past winter through
> snow and ice (suburban Philly). Snow removal was not great out here, but
> the deepest snowfalls this past year happened on weekends.
>
> didn't fall once, and only had to put a foot down unexpectedly a few
> times. Heavy, slow, and what a relief to take them off again later, but I
> won't ride without them in snow and ice again.
> 3) To go along with 2 - take it slow. This also fits into 1.
>
>
> Keith
I fell numerous times commuting ~8 hilly miles each way this winter in
surburban philly, until I got a pair of Nokkian studded tires, after
which, no falls. Traction isn't perfect with them, but they give you
the time to dab a toe when needed. And judging by the number of stuck
cars I passed, the bike was certainly my preferred mode of winter
transport.
Brian Huntley
>
> Some folks in the Netherlands are born, [snip] on a bike,
I certainly hope that's on a recumbent!
Barry Davidson
I've been a utility cyclist for over 15 years and car-free for 7.
There are 2 things to consider:
Where you work and shop in relation to where you live, and the type of
vehicle you're using to supplant the automobile.
I live, work and shop within a 5 mile radius. This was planned.
Many people have planned where they live, work and shop with the automobile
in mind, so it may require a little replanning to do the car-free thing.
i.e. move house,change job etc.
As far as a vehicle is concerned, I used a 6-speed cruiser with milk box on
backrack for years. Many cyclists find a regular bike plus a trailer is
adequate for their needs. I was always frustrated with my inability to
carry stuff until I bought my first utility trike, a Lightfoot Transporter.
It's like having a little pickup truck. Since then I bought a Lightfoot
RoadRunner. It's smaller, lighter, faster. It's like having an SUV.
The RoadRunner will carry a week's groceries for 2 or 3 easily.
It's possible to set it up for a child seat. The Transporter will carry 2
weeks groceries for 4. It will also carry lumber, kids, dogs, even my wife.
I use my trikes year round, and we get REAL winter here. The extra wheel
makes winter cycling not only safe but fun. Granted, these vehicles are not
as fast as bikes (80-90%), but they are purpose built from a practical
utilitarian perspective and they do the job that has to be done.
OTOH, some cyclists buy bicycles for speed and performance and try to adapt
them to utilitarian uses, like driving a sports car pulling a Uhaul, and it
doesn't work for everything. Sometimes we need more than a bike.
Cheers, Barry
P.S.- I also find the RoadRunner to be an excellent touring trike. I just
returned from a 10 day 600 mile tour carrying 75 lbs. of camping gear and it
performed flawlessly.
See them at www.Cyclotec.Ca
"Vrindavan" wrote in message:
Stella Hackell
> Some folks in the Netherlands are born, live, and die on a bike,
> enjoying it all the way.
Born on a bike? Got any photos of such a blessed event?
--
Stella Hackell ste...@ncal.verio.com
She who succeeds in gaining the mastery of the bicycle will gain the
mastery of life.
--Frances E. Willard, _How I Learned to Ride the Bicycle_
terry
I cycle year round on the Pacific coast of Canada.
If you have ever seen pictures of people in China or Vietnam with huge
(light) loads on their bike, that is just like me, all duct taped and
bunjee cords. I ride a Norco economy mountain bike. I have learned
time and again that too heavy a load on a bike just wrecks the rims,
forks, and spokes and is not worth the trouble.
Shoppping for a few groceries, produce, milk, etc. I use my waterproof
panniers. Shopping for flats of food at Costco, I use a buggie I found
at a golf course. I can haul about $100 worth of lumber on a dolly like
those found at Costco or Home Depot for customer use, but mine is
smaller and less robust, but does the job. The flat bed dolly cost me
about $300. It takes me an hour to get to Home Depot and 2 hour back
with the load. I recently had a flat of patio bricks delivered and
paid delivery from Home Depot, so it really depends, but you can get
along quite nicely without a car. I save $100 a month on fuel and $100
on car insurance. (money I don't have) not to mention what car repairs
might be. I also am at an age where I need all the exercise I can get
to keep my aging heart in shape. The benefit I save from each trip I
make with my bike plus the benefit of not having to take heart
medication is an unknown.
After a 45 min ride to work while saying good morning to other
cyclists, joggers, walkers, dog walkers, dumpster divers, street people,
all ending with a warm/hot shower, is just best way to start the day.
Another thing I enjoy is drivers who do everything they can to prevent
me from cross the street, won't stop or slow down or whatever. Can you
imagine what kind of life they are really having! Makes my day knowing
they are stooping so low!
Jym Dyer
=v= Sorry, that's the sort of thing that "family filters"
frowns upon. Ditto for the conception-on-a-bike.
<_Jym_>
Brian Huntley
Keeper of the Mighty Macaulay wrote:
> Let's face it,
> if you get hit by a car with a kid on your rack or top tube, even with a
> safety seat and helmet, or worse yet, if the trailer you've got your kid
> in gets hit by a car, it's quite likely that they will be killed. If
> you can secure 40lbs of gear onto a rack in a milk crate, you can
> probably do the same with a kid and as long as you can ride a relatively
> smooth line, stay calm and present yourself as a valid vehicle in
> traffic, you should be fine.
You seem to contradict yourself, but in my personal experience, you can
survive a car/bike accident with a child aboard - it happened to me two
years ago this month. My son was on the back of my citified 26" bike in a
department store child seat and wearing a Fisher Price helmet, on a Saturday
morning. A car ahead thought he saw a parking space (it was actually a
hydrant spot) and suddenly slowed and performed a lane change right on top
of us. The front wheel collasped, and we endo'ed, going about 170 degrees
around. I broke my wrist, no doubt from trying to keep the bike from going
completely over. My son was hanging by his straps.
Fortunately, the car came to a complete stop, and a large man from the
sidewalk (I never thanked him enough) ran out and grabbed the bike, allowing
me to crawl out and flip it back over. I had road rash all up my left side,
the broken right wrist, and a scuffed helmet. My son's helmet was not marked
(but we junked it anyway.) The bike's frame was bent, as well.
We were both back on the (new) bike as soon as my cast came off.
Geoffrey Sherwood
> that they require the largest and most far-reaching marketing
> campaign in the world to constantly brainwash people to believe
> that they're enjoyable.
> <_Jym_>
And you actually believe, this, huh? Wow.
I have a bent and I enjoy it, but I also very much enjoy driving. Amazingly
enough, I do not consider myself brainwashed. Not only do I like the
experience of driving, I like all the things it does for me -- like enable
me to take the family to one of the nice rails-to-trails around here
(Withlacoochee and Van Fleet, to name two) which would be impossible for us
to enjoy otherwise (the trail heads are 30-40 miles away, and my 4 year old
is good for maybe 10 miles total). To me, a vehicle is *freedom*.
If you don't like cars, fine. For you to tell the rest of us we only like
them becuase we are brainwashed is presumtuous and more than a little silly.
Geoff Sherwood
Randall R Schulz
What I see of urban motorists and their "driving experience" from the
seat of my bike bears not the slightest resemblance to a single one of
the advertisements presented by automobile makers.
You may enjoy flitting about an otherwise unoccupied road, when and
where you can find one, but most car use gives every indication of being
sheer hell to those doing it. And, to my unending distress, they seemed
committed to sharing their foul mood with all those around them.
By all means, enjoy the process of creating the demand for oil that is
the sole justification for our presence and involvement in the Middle
East (unless you think we're their to protect our pistachio supply).
Randall Schulz
Mountain View, CA USA
Jack Dingler
enjoyable. I guess some people like driving in heavy traffic, but I
don't.
I can't see buying a car just to drive my bike to a far off location.
But to each his own.
Be glad that you still live in an area where the population is sparse
enough to enjoy such pursuits.
Jack Dingler
Geoffrey Sherwood
place where that is minimally required (just north of Tampa, FL). And
regardless, I do not believe people are brainwashed into taking cars versus
other forms of transportation. Suburbs to a job in the city is often a
fairly distant commute, and motorized trasportation is often the only
reasonable way for most people to handle it -- especially those with
families. And yes, this is a consequence of living farther out from the
city center, which people generally do because they DON'T WANT TO LIVE in
the city center.
Mostly, though, I get annoyed when someone pipes up with the only reason the
world doesn't think like he does is that the whole world is brainwashed (but
him, of course). Like the guy who hears on his car radio there's a car
driving the wrong way down the freeway and bursts out, 'One car? There are
hundreds of them!"
Geoff Sherwood
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3BA65655...@texas.net...
Peter Sichel
to accept certain patterns of doing things over others even though
they may be inneficient or have a higher cost.
I think most people love the freedom of having a car and being
able to travel easily whenever and wherever they want. At
the same time, most people don't enjoy being required to
spend many hours in their cars every week often stuck in traffic.
Or constantly needing a car to do common everyday tasks.
We accept the later as a price for the former, or a trade-off
in finding a more affordable or desirable place to live.
But this trade-off is not innevitable. It is the consequence
of a set of cultural choices which are unconscious to most
of us.
Whether you call this brain washing, or a culture that is
often shaped to serve commercial interests above broader
human ones, the fact remains that we have one of the most
car dependent cultures on the planet.
- Peter
Tom Keats
You should experience some of the peer pressure I've undergone
because of my refusal to drive. I've never wanted nor needed
a car. Still don't. For myself, having to worry about
insurance premiums, theft, accidents, fuel prices, parking spots,
parking fees, emissions, inspections, maintenance & repairs and
the rest, is the opposite of freedom.
Friends, relatives and associates, even to this point in time
occasionally hound me to take up driving. The more they do,
the more adamant I become. It makes me feel like the protagonist
in those futuristic/apocalyptic sci-fi movies where the mutants
try to get him to become a mutant himself.
cheers,
Tom
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Gene
> place where that is minimally required (just north of Tampa, FL). And
> regardless, I do not believe people are brainwashed into taking cars versus
> other forms of transportation. Suburbs to a job in the city is often a
> fairly distant commute, and motorized trasportation is often the only
> reasonable way for most people to handle it -- especially those with
> families. And yes, this is a consequence of living farther out from the
> city center, which people generally do because they DON'T WANT TO LIVE in
> the city center.
>
> Mostly, though, I get annoyed when someone pipes up with the only reason the
> world doesn't think like he does is that the whole world is brainwashed (but
> him, of course). Like the guy who hears on his car radio there's a car
> driving the wrong way down the freeway and bursts out, 'One car? There are
> hundreds of them!"
It's not brainwashing that does it, it's just how are society has
developed. Everyone wants everything to be as easy as possible (that
means no sweat involved), as convenient as possible (which means no
waiting 10 minutes at a bus stop or adjusting your schedule to
participate in a carpool), and as comfortable as possible (that means
you can never get rained on).
Neighborhoods aren't set up with a walk to the store in mind, no more
than developer's worry about how easy the commute to the closest job
concentration will be.
Incidentally, I don't live in the suburbs, I live in the woods, and I
don't whine about any of the above excuses as to why I can't ride my
bike. The only problem I've had so far was that until I replaced them,
the skinny mountain bike slicks on my commuter bike got bogged down when
my dirt road got all dried out and sandy. Otherwise, it's a pleasant
15-mile ride into work every morning in the pre-dawn fog, and a nice way
to unwind while I pass everyone lined up to enter the city.
Terry Collins
> For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
YES & No. I lived for 10 years without a car in Newcastle NSW,
Australia. During that time I used my bicycle for study, worked and
recreation. As it also had a reasonable (day light hours) train
service, there were very few places I couldn't go (and usually didn't
want to = large traffic). It had lots of streets parallel to the main
routes. When I purchased a vehicle, it was a van to support bicycle
trips after I married.
I think the actually township layout and traffic patterns are a big
factor. I abandoned the bike when I moved to Liverpool & Campbelltown
NSW as traffic was just too much for my wife to handle regularly.
Although, she occassionally rides to work. Other places (Oz capital
cities) that strike me as good for bicycling are Canberra, Melbourne,
Adelaide and Perth.
Shopping frequently solves that problem - good racks and panniers will
carry everything if you prefer bigger shops.
Occassionally inclement weather occurs, pay for a taxi.
I don't know what car hire costs are like for you, but we recently
flew to Brisbane and hired a car for four days. It ended up costing
the same per kilometre as it does to run my 10 year old van. If you
have similar, then just look at hiring a car for major trips, when
needed. Particularly if you pay garaging cost.
Geoffrey Sherwood
"Gene" <webm...@zylay.com> wrote in message
news:3BA7AC4B...@zylay.com...
> It's not brainwashing that does it, it's just how are society has
> developed. Everyone wants everything to be as easy as possible (that
> means no sweat involved), as convenient as possible (which means no
> waiting 10 minutes at a bus stop or adjusting your schedule to
> participate in a carpool), and as comfortable as possible (that means
> you can never get rained on).
>
> Neighborhoods aren't set up with a walk to the store in mind, no more
> than developer's worry about how easy the commute to the closest job
> concentration will be.
Also realize that developers often have very little choice -- if an area is
zoned residential that is all that is going to go there. I lived in Houston
for a while. Without zoning, business (as in high-rise) just kind of popped
up all over the place instead of being confined to downtown. I found that
refreshing. Unfortunately, I think a lot of suburban types want to pretend
that they are in never-never land when they are home, a little utopia that
doesn't have to worry about things as crass as 'stores'. At least that is
what it seems like around here. And I live in here with them.... As much
as I dislike the homogeneity, it is nice for little kids (of which I have
two).
What I really wish I had was a nice neighborhood pub, like so many I've
frequented in Ireland and Britain. Perish the thought, here, though.
Geoff Sherwood
Mark D. Schneider
handlebars" isn't much of a turn-on I'd imagine.....
"Gene" <webm...@zylay.com> wrote in message
news:3BA7AC4B...@zylay.com...
David Hansen
Schneider" <msch...@21stcentury.net> wrote this:-
>what about dating? or are you all married? "Hey babeeee, jump up on my
>handlebars" isn't much of a turn-on I'd imagine.....
People managed this for thousands of years without cars. I don't think
anything has changed with human sexuality in the short times since
cars were invented.
People who exercise tend to be more attractive. Public transport is a
far better place to flirt than a car.
Gene
>
> what about dating? or are you all married? "Hey babeeee, jump up on my
> handlebars" isn't much of a turn-on I'd imagine.....
I was raising 3 kids by myself at the time...who had time for dating?
LOL
Seriously, I dated a woman for most of the time that I was car-free. She
had a car, but we also biked a lot together (I bought her a nice
hybridized mountain bike with a babyseat for her 1YO). Our combined 6
kids wouldn't have all fit in her car to go places anyways, so we often
rode our bikes, or on the weekends that my kids were gone and we went
out of town, I simply bought gas for her car. She agreed that it didn't
make sense for me to buy a car as we lived downtown, 5 blocks from the
school, 5 blocks from daycare, and 7 blocks from one grocery store, and
right behind a more expensive one. Considering that I was still
recovering financially from a divorce, the extra money from not owning a
car was very welcome, and allowed the kids and I to enjoy our life a lot
more than if every spare dime I had was used feeding gas to a monster.
I'm not anti-car - I own a minivan now (even though I did sell my truck
simply because I wasn't using it). I just don't use the van unless
there's a specific reason to do so. Thunderstorms, time crunches,
carrying large objects, and long distances are all valid excuses if you
ask me, but 80% of my traveling doesn't involve any of those. I can
easily go 15-20 miles in not much longer than it would take to drive (I
live 15 miles from work and ride my bike every day, with hte first
couple of miles being on a dirt road), light rain doesn't bother me that
much (although I don't ride in thunder and lightning or hail), I can
carry about $50.00 worth of groceries on my bike in my panniers and on
my racks, and time crunches are easily taken care of by not
overextending myself and planning ahead as much as possible.
Gene
> >handlebars" isn't much of a turn-on I'd imagine.....
>
> People managed this for thousands of years without cars. I don't think
> anything has changed with human sexuality in the short times since
> cars were invented.
>
> People who exercise tend to be more attractive. Public transport is a
> far better place to flirt than a car.
Here's a story for you. A while ago, I had surgery "down there" and
couldn't bike for a while. Being the kind of person I am (and only
having one car that I didn't wish to leave my wife without) I started
taking the bus to work. Met a guy on there named Tom; great big guy,
close to 300 lbs. Rode a bike to the bus stop as his car was broken down
and he didn't think it was worth fixing. We became really good friends
and he started coming over to the house for dinner and riding with my
kids and I. Sometimes if he needed a hand with something (like getting
to the bike shop to pick up his new bike), I'd give him a lift. He was
then transferred to nights and would ride the bus to work and bike home.
One day when I caught the bus so we could ride together, I noticed that
him and this one lady on the bus were paying closer attention to each
other than I would have thought....my suspicions were confirmed a couple
of months later when he asked me to be his best man at his wedding.
Since we met a year or so ago, He has lost over 50 lbs, made some good
friends, found his wife and decided that he doesn't need a car any more
than he needs another bellybutton. He's rented a car a couple of times,
but other htan that, he's perfectly happy to ride his bike.
rorschandt
> "Mark D. Schneider" wrote:
> >
> > what about dating? or are you all married? "Hey babeeee, jump up on my
> > handlebars" isn't much of a turn-on I'd imagine.....
This is only a problem if you want to date people who don't have the same
ideals as you. Why you would do this is beyond me...but people do it all the
time.
When I was younger and single I used to be coerced by friends to "go to a
bar to meet women". First of all I never met any that I liked, or liked me.
Secondly, frequenting a bar wasn't *me*. The best way to meet a mate is to
do the things you normally do, relax, and eventually you will meet single
men or women that HAVE THE SAME INTERESTS. If I was dedicated to a carfee
lifestyle, and a woman didn't want to date me because of that, why would I
want to date her?
A case in point: I met TWO very nice (and hot) women at a
rappelling/climbing class that I attended out of curiosity. I was already
"spoken for", however. )~:
Happy hunting.
Rorschandt
Mark D. Schneider
comments/remarks.....
1. I was not referring to having sex in the back seat -- not that I mind
that, but it was not the "thrust" of my question -- pun intended
2. someone remarked that I shouldn't be interested in a woman that doesn't
understand/sympathise with my car-less-ness . I have a car, but was simply
respionding to those who were advocating/commenting on a carless lifestyle.
3. someone also comented on society having gotten by without cars for many
years -- true enough, but once something becomes commonplace, peoples'
expectations and comfort zones change. I went many years without a
computer, e.g., but once they became affordable and I got one, now I'm not
sure how much of a challenge it would be to be without -- I COULD do it, but
it would be qa colossal PITA.
4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters could
bike to meet for dates, or that the male biker should suggest that the woman
always drive? remember, renting cars or taking cabs is not a carless
lifestyle, it's merely a car-ownership less one.
5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
6. don;t you worry that women will be more interested in that $2k bike
between your legs than with ..........
regards,
Mark
"David Hansen" <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ukigqtg986mh7ktud...@4ax.com...
Gene
>
> Following up on my previous question, let me add the following
> comments/remarks.....
>
> 1. I was not referring to having sex in the back seat -- not that I mind
> that, but it was not the "thrust" of my question -- pun intended
>
> 2. someone remarked that I shouldn't be interested in a woman that doesn't
> understand/sympathise with my car-less-ness . I have a car, but was simply
> respionding to those who were advocating/commenting on a carless lifestyle.
>
> 3. someone also comented on society having gotten by without cars for many
> years -- true enough, but once something becomes commonplace, peoples'
> expectations and comfort zones change. I went many years without a
> computer, e.g., but once they became affordable and I got one, now I'm not
> sure how much of a challenge it would be to be without -- I COULD do it, but
> it would be qa colossal PITA.
>
> 4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters could
> bike to meet for dates, or that the male biker should suggest that the woman
> always drive? remember, renting cars or taking cabs is not a carless
> lifestyle, it's merely a car-ownership less one.
>
> 5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
> bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
What if she's a car-free (and free-spirited) woman who admires your
principles enough to like you more than the guy down the road who needs
a big truck to make him feel "adequate"?
> 6. don;t you worry that women will be more interested in that $2k bike
> between your legs than with ..........
Have never met a car-free pweon riding a $2K bike unless they kept a
racing bike stashed in the closet. As a rule (which means that it's
meant to be broken), utility bikers ride rebuilt mountain bikes and 20
YO Raleigh road bikes.
Jack Dingler
powered stereos, etc..., because we have a natural drive to prove that
we are so wealthy that we can waste most our efforts on stupid trivial
items. Why does he argue we do this? It's because we want our potential
mates to see how wealthy we are. Our potential mates then look at how
much we're throwing away in stupid excesses, then converts this factor
into potential nesting materials. Then if an agreement is made, then all
of that excess, plus anymore that can be squeezed out of the male, is
used for nesting materials. Thus the male can no longer demonstrate the
ability to waste precious resources and becomes unattractive to other
potential mates.
Wasting money and energy on a car is one for of excess that we do to get
laid.
Pretty simple.
Jack Dingler
Geoffrey Sherwood
I buy toys because they are fun to play with, and I love the feel of
something well engineered.
I'm not interested in an audience.
Geoff Sherwood
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3BA91093...@texas.net...
Jack Dingler
as to why you should care.
Jack Dingler
Geoffrey Sherwood
of what drives me, considering a) he has never heard of me and b) what he
says (if your paraphrase is accurate) is pretty much the standard rant for
those who think that others are enjoying the fruits of their labors in ways
they don't approve. The repetition does get tedious after a while. Like
people who drive trucks and/or SUVs are trying to make up for, shall we say,
certain lacks in other areas.
Maybe a need to put down anyone who doesn't agree with a more ascetic
lifestyle harkens back to the monk in his cell, sure that his deprivations
will carry him to heaven while the excesses of the rest of humanity will
damn them to hell. Or at least he holds firmly to that, or he might
question the wisdom of his lifestyle choices....
Maybe not. Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men?. (well, blood,
actually :-))
Geoff Sherwood
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3BA93F29...@texas.net...
Jack Dingler
Check out the book, "Spirit of the Gene".
So, you really don't want to know why you feel satisfied with collecting
trophies that denote your rank and status in life. That's fine by me.
I don't believe I've said anything that's denigrating yet. But then it's
an instinct for us to search out hidden meanings that can mean an
impending attack or pretext to one. If I make the statement, "Many
automobiles use gasoline for fuel", someone is likely to assume I am
attacking automobiles and will feel an urge to defend them. It's just
the way we are wired. We can't help it, it's part of our genetic makeup
to apply undue importance to non-living things which represent our
trophies in life.
Geoffrey Sherwood
somebody who claims to have 'the answer' as to why we do what we do. In
simple cases, obviously there is a biological cause and effect (hungry->eat,
tired->sleep) but get on to more complex matters and the answers become more
complex as well. This idea reduces any desire for more than having the
absolute bare minimum in life to strutting for the female. Freud would be
proud.
It sounds to me like you found a pop psychologist who has a message that
agrees with you, so you think this guy has all the answers. I did go to the
Amazon site and read reviews of the book. Obviously not everyone thinks he
makes a convincing case. Um, no thanks. I've got better things to do with
my life.
Geoff Sherwood
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3BA99788...@texas.net...
Bob G
> Sounds like you don't know much about him either.
>
> Check out the book, "Spirit of the Gene".
>
> So, you really don't want to know why you feel satisfied with collecting
> trophies that denote your rank and status in life. That's fine by me.
>
> I don't believe I've said anything that's denigrating yet. But then it's
> an instinct for us to search out hidden meanings that can mean an
> impending attack or pretext to one. If I make the statement, "Many
> automobiles use gasoline for fuel", someone is likely to assume I am
> attacking automobiles and will feel an urge to defend them. It's just
> the way we are wired. We can't help it, it's part of our genetic makeup
> to apply undue importance to non-living things which represent our
> trophies in life.
>
> Jack Dingler
***Dr. Dingler has spoken.
Bob
Bob G
"Geoffrey Sherwood" <ge...@sherwoodforest.net> wrote in message
news:lamq7.8007$mX5.1...@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com...
> Humans do things for many strange and various reasons. There will always
be
> somebody who claims to have 'the answer' as to why we do what we do. In
> simple cases, obviously there is a biological cause and effect
(hungry->eat,
> tired->sleep) but get on to more complex matters and the answers become
more
> complex as well. This idea reduces any desire for more than having the
> absolute bare minimum in life to strutting for the female. Freud would be
> proud.
>
> It sounds to me like you found a pop psychologist who has a message that
> agrees with you, so you think this guy has all the answers. I did go to
the
> Amazon site and read reviews of the book. Obviously not everyone thinks
he
> makes a convincing case. Um, no thanks. I've got better things to do
with
> my life.
>
> Geoff Sherwood
***You chose well grasshopper.
Bob
Billy Bigelow
Why don't yous guys trim some of the quoting... give the people who pay for
downloads and PDA folks a break.
Tnx
"Bob G" <bob...@removenospamyahoo.com>
Jack Dingler
things and they don't know why, and that any explanation for why they
just find an attraction and a want for these things is automatically
stupid.
I have no problem with this. It's a human instinct to avoid deep
retrospection and live shallow. Too much retrospection can lead to guilt
and depression. Don't examine why you think what you do. You'll be
happier.
Jack Dingler
Jack Dingler
evolution and our personalities and drives are guided by our genes and
our environment.
Lot's of people think that concept is stupid. NP. You can think it's
stupid too.
John Forrest Tomlinson
(Some stuff and a huge bunch of quoted material)
Could you please snip some of the quoted material that's unnecessary
to your post.
JT
--
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
*******************************************
W. Morris
To go back to your question and ignoring the ludicrous diversion this thread
has taken, i.e. vehicle as a testosterone delivery/measurement device:
After my car died, I spent the last year using my bicycle as my primary means
of transportation. For my commute to Lake Placid, NY I allowed about an hour
10 minutes to work and just under an hour home. I rode mostly on 2 lane State
Roads (Rt 3 and Rt 86) with mostly good shoulders. I rode most of the winter,
in most kinds of weather. Though I dressed warmly (in layers) I tried not to
ride if the temp was under 10 to 15 degrees and windy or if there was heavy
snow. I had the luxury of working from home on the few days the weather
deterred me from riding to town, or when the snows came heavy during the day, I
could comfortably spend the night at my office. In March alone, we had over 9
feet of snow, though I was never stuck at home or at work more than 48 hours
due to the excellent snow removal efforts by our highway crews. My work days
were limited in the winter due to my aversion to riding in the dark in
sub-freezing temperatures.
Public transportation opportunities in this area are few. A round trip cab ride
to and from my business is around $40.00. A bus between Lake Placid and Saranac
Lake and cab to home would run around $24.00 round trip and given the fact that
we have exactly one bus in each direction a day through town, I could get less
than 5 hours work done between arrival and departure from L.P. A rental car
from the local Rent-A-Wreck is around $45.00 with something like a $150 or $200
deposit and their mileage restrictions prevents me from leaving the area.. I've
only done this a couple of times when I absolutely had to make the 60 mile trip
to Plattsburg for office supplies, banking, etc. (No bus in that direction.)
I've done the cab and the cab/bus combination commute a few times when
necessary.. On a few occasions, I've also borrowed the pickup from the bike
shop downstairs from my office when I had large loads to carry from my
business, home or cabin. In an emergency, I've ridden to town with a neighbor,
though I definitely get the impression that she would rather share this commute
time with her own thoughts and not a freeloader.
I've trimmed down and am in the best shape I've been in many years. Though I've
only kept a mileage log for the past couple of months, since spring I've been
riding 800 to 1000 miles per month including my weekend jaunts. I've ridden
about every paved road in the Adirondack Park, seen every native animal except
a moose, fished in countless streams and ponds along the way, saw the Aurora
Borealis once on a rare late Winter evening ride, and am now watching the
leaves change colors once again.
Of course during the past year there have been times I could really have used a
car. A few are described below, though there were many more occasions.
Though I'm living in what is my idea of Paradise, there are times I want to
leave town. I went to a folk festival in July which required a 50 mile bike
trip to the Amtrak Station, 5+ hours on the train, then another 20 mile ride.
While the ride and train trip along Lake Champlain was certainly enjoyable, I
lost two days of work to the additional traveling time alone. Easter dinner
with my family in Saratoga springs (2 hours by car) requires 3 days due to the
one-a-day bus schedule. A 2 hour business meeting in Connecticut likewise,
requires 3 days of mostly unbillable time, plus a car rental from the bus
station in Albany.
Performances at the local playhouse, or dinner in Saranac Lake requires an
additional $20 or so or else a late night ride along State Route 3. A concert
in Burlington VT (about 45 miles when the ferry runs) or a lecture at one of
the universities requires two days of bike travel and a motel room.
Even picking up a bulky item from a store requires borrowing or renting
transportation. For example, book sales are no bargain when a car rental is
involved.
To answer your question, yes, cycling can replace a car completely for
transportation without problem if none of the few simple obstacles I described
above constitute a problem as defined by your lifestyle. I proved to myself
that I could survive without a car. After a year however, I found my personal
lifestyle was being too constricted to limit myself to the constraints of time
and biking range. A year without motorized transportation in a remote area
convinced me of its value. I just bought a minion to supplement (not replace)
my transportation options, as well as to open new roads to my biking and allow
me to visit my daughter more than the few times I've been able to make the trip
this year.
Decide for yourself. Try living without one as I did and tally up the plusses
and minuses. Ignore those who say we are "brainwashed" into thinking we need a
car. Obviously, a blanket statement like this is simplistic, if not patently
stupid. Look at your needs, the local cycling conditions, your ability to
thrive in foul weather, available transportation alternatives when a bike is
not an option, and think and decide for yourself.
Regards,
Wayne Morris
Lake Placid, NY
Vrindavan wrote:
> 1. Can Cycling replace a car completely for transportation without problem?
> For day trip, transport, touring, etc.
>
> If there are problems, what are they?
>
> 2. How I can take a little kid with me if I am riding a bike?
> He is still very young and not able to ride on his own on the road.
>
> I am not sure if there are some special bicycle design
> or product that cater for my situation.
>
> 3. Any website or group on the Internet advocate
> use only bicycle for tansportation or commute?
> (family who own no car at all)
Tim McNamara
<wmo...@biblioworks.com> wrote:
> To go back to your question and ignoring the ludicrous diversion this thread
> has taken, i.e. vehicle as a testosterone delivery/measurement device:
<snip>
You summarize the dilemma of living without a car.
If you live in a metropolitan area with good public transportation
options, then you can quite possibly get by withou a car even if you
live somewhere with cold weather, snow etc.
If you live in the suburbs or in a rural area, you will be facing
significant inconveniences. For some people those inconveniences will
preclude giving up the car.
OTOH, if like most people you buy or lease a car every 2-4 years, you
will save $2500 to, well, the sky's the limit depending on your taste
in cars, from not having car payments. That doesn't include insurance,
operating costs, etc.
I figure that if I could do my job without a car (which unfortunately I
can't), I could work about 28 hours a week and pay my mortgage and my
other bills with some money left over for savings.
I've owned my car for 13 years and will be replacing it soon. Total
cost of ownership in 13 years has been $28,000 for purchase price,
interest and major repairs; plus $11,400 in gasoline and $2,000 for
routine maintenance; plus $8,350 for insurance; plus licensing costs at
about $1,500... net cost a conservative estimate of about $51,250 or
about $4,000 per year. That's better than 10% of my income in most
years, not counting the percentage of my income taxes that goes into
subsidizing automobile use. I could have taken a lot of great bicyclng
vacations with that money...
Curtis L. Russell
want to hear Beethoven or Mozart or The Seldom Scene with best
reproduction, then you need a good stereo. Cars are purchased for
everything from personal aesthetics to carrying capability to other
job requirements (carrying up to three customers comfortably at a time
may be one). If I had to pull into that old freeway in Connecticut on
a regular basis, I would have the automobile with the best
acceleration I could find, as an example (no acceleration lanes, no
yield lanes, no breakdown lanes when I drove it).
You are the absurdist with a fatally flawed logic gene. You bounce off
on your tangents to tangents to tangents. You take a response framed
to automobiles in general and kick it back as a narrow group of
specific auto types, as if that was what was under discussion. You
present comments and arguments that show up no where in precedents and
act as if you are responding to someone else's post. Pathetic...
...and so is having a discussion with you. After all, you are in your
own spun world. You remind me of the guy near Union Station in DC that
looked at people while having a conversation with himself (when he
wasn't turning circles). Have to remind myself not to be drawn into
conversations with the barely here or the barely hear. Killfile time.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD. (USA)
Don't permit the actions of others to control your thoughts;
don't permit the thoughts of others to control your actions.
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:27:35 GMT, Jack Dingler <jdin...@texas.net>
wrote:
Bob VonMoss
> The Seldom Scene
Is your bike named "The Orange Blossom Special?"
Fabrizio Mazzoleni
wrote:
> "Curtis L. Russell" wrote:
>
> > The Seldom Scene
>
> Is your bike named "The Orange Blossom Special?"
>
>
If you think that's off the wall, I rented the video Eraser Head and drank
Marquis de Villard VSOP French Brandy the other evening.
Steven Goodridge
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@mac.com> :
> If you live in a metropolitan area with good public transportation
> options, then you can quite possibly get by withou a car even if you
> live somewhere with cold weather, snow etc.
>
> If you live in the suburbs or in a rural area, you will be facing
> significant inconveniences. For some people those inconveniences will
> preclude giving up the car.
> Total
> cost of ownership in 13 years ... about $4,000 per year.
Great post. That's exactly the estimate I came up with for ownership of a
reasonably affordable car, including insurance, etc. This comes out to about
$15 per work day. Dividing this by hourly wage shows how much time one
spends earning money to pay for car ownership. At minimum wage one must work
three hours just to own a car. Whether this is worth the time or not depends
on the amount of time requried to walk, bike, or ride transit to one's most
frequent destinations, the availability of friends and family to provide
rides for longer distances, and the cost of taxi service for remaining
trips. I find that in urban areas, if one works near home or has a good
transit system it's easy to live without a car, but the tradeoffs become
significant away from dense mixed-use neighborhoods or where transit is
unavailable. Interesting that the places where car-free living are the most
convenient are places where cyclists face the most traffic. This illustrates
that traffic negotiation is a more important strategy for effective bicycle
transportation policy than purely traffic avoidance as practiced by most
recreational cyclists.
See http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/cyclinguse.htm for the
essay I wrote on the topic.
Steve Goodridge
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/
Jack Dingler
Jack Dingler
them off. Gotcha. If you did, then that equipment would serve the
purpose of being a trophy. Cultivated taste in things can also be
interpreted as a trophy, as work and effort go into the cultivation.
You do not believe that you have a built in drive to reproduce that may
cause you to be blind to some illogical behaviours that you may exhibit.
Gotcha.
Your anger directed at me, for arguing that you are a product of human
evolution serves what logical purpose?
I really don't see where your anger comes from on this topic. The idea
that animals, including humans, collect trophies to demonstrate
inclusive fitness is not a new one. The idea that this behaviour is
driven by instinct is not a new one. The idea that humans have a blind
spot for their own behaviours that are driven by instincts, is not a new
one.
So far, you haven't provided a single counter argument, except to insult
me, call me mentally ill, and generally rage against my arguments. It's
obvious you really haven't thought about these things, or you would be
able to discuss them without anger. We all have these same instincts,
expressed and suppressed to varying degrees, it's not a weakness unless
you don't account for them. There is no need for you to be on the
defensive.
Jack Dingler
Curtis L. Russell
something that Alison Krause and Union Station does. "I'll Fly Away'
(I'll lie away? - its a recumbent) probably works best, off the top of
my head...
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD. (USA)
Don't permit the actions of others to control your thoughts;
don't permit the thoughts of others to control your actions.
On Sat, 22 Sep 2001 01:22:05 -0500, Bob VonMoss <bvon...@mol.mn>
wrote:
>Is your bike named "The Orange Blossom Special?"
Geoffrey Sherwood
that is all you practice. Nobody has argued that we don't have instincts
and drives. Your photojournalist author came up with a new one, and you
say if we don't believe in his we don't believe in instincts and drives.
Can't you see the fallacy there? You also seem to claim we are ruled by
our biology as opposed to influenced by it -- there is a wide gulf between
the two. If the drive to procreate were all that mattered rape would be the
norm. Me see, me like, me take. It isn't -- and it isn't.
I don't think you are seeing anger. You are seeing frustration at trying to
deal rationally with someone who cannot seem to comprehend the posts made in
this topic.
Back to the beginning. The original thesis was that we want to show we are
prime mating material by wasting natural resources. The more we waste, the
better we are. And it was posited that this was *the* driving force behind
human behavior -- though it only seemed to me to be addressing the male side
of the equation. My response is that humans are very complex and have
various instincts and drives as well as concious reaction to and mediation
of those. It is not possible in most situations to definitively state why a
certain action was taken. There are often many reasons, some conflicting.
Geoff Sherwood
You do not seem to be able to understand any of the postings which have
taken issue with you
"Jack Dingler" <jdin...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3BAEC4C7...@texas.net...
Jack Dingler
I guess Alison Krause had some connections that allowed her to get
royalties for the CD, even though her version of the tune didn't appear
in the film.
Hrmmmm, want to write a few bent verses for the tune?
Jack Dingler
Jack Dingler
and what we don't learn easily. IT helps reinforce our culture and makes
us resistant to new ideas that don't fit our cultural norm.
In some societies rape has been the norm. In those cultures, the
children were raised to see it as the norm, and thuse through biology
became comfortable with the twin notions of slavery and rape. Many
generations of humans have been born out of rape. Do you think that the
twin concepts of rape and slavery are new and didn't evolve as part of
our genetic heritage?
If we look at these concepts from a Western European perspective, the
Romans made slaves of the English and Irish, raped the women and spread
their genes throughout this region. Then the Norse made slaves of the
Scots and English and raped their women and spread their seed. Then the
English enslved the Scots and the Irish, raped their women and spread
their genes througout these regions.
Rape has been a very succesful means of spreading genetic traits and
violent dispositions. Don't discount it as abnormal. It is very
prevalent and it's influnece continues today.
You see my arguments as strawmen because you refuse to see how all of
our behaviours are connected.
Jack Dingler
Brian Huntley
>
> Hrmmmm, want to write a few bent verses for the tune?
>
> Jack Dingler
>
> "Curtis L. Russell" wrote:
> >
> > Uh, no, if I were to go the blue grass route, I'd name it for
> > something that Alison Krause and Union Station does. "I'll Fly Away'
> > (I'll lie away? - its a recumbent) probably works best, off the top of
> > my head...
> >
How about some Elton John - "Tiny Dancer" could become "Tinny Dancer."
"The Road is close to Tinny Dancer
Count the potholes on the highway
Laying down on seats of pleather
You had a busy route today..."
Definately not bluegrass.
Larisa
ride my bike for about 5 miles of my commute; the rest is on a
trolley. Very convenient, very nice, I can hang up my bike in the
train, I get to sit and read for 40 minutes every morning, I can get
to wherever I want to go with minimal bike time, blah blah blah. What
happens if I break my leg? I can no longer commute this way. (I take
judo classes, so the possibility of injury is not too remote)
LM
"Steven Goodridge" <sggo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<9oi55b$vbm$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>...
Larisa
> In article <180920011709346031%psi...@sustworks.com>,
> Peter Sichel <psi...@sustworks.com> writes:
> > "Brain washed" may not be the best term, but people are enculturated
> > to accept certain patterns of doing things over others even though
> > they may be inneficient or have a higher cost.
> >
> > I think most people love the freedom of having a car and being
> > able to travel easily whenever and wherever they want. At
> > the same time, most people don't enjoy being required to
> > spend many hours in their cars every week often stuck in traffic.
> > Or constantly needing a car to do common everyday tasks.
> >
> > We accept the later as a price for the former, or a trade-off
> > in finding a more affordable or desirable place to live.
> > But this trade-off is not innevitable. It is the consequence
> > of a set of cultural choices which are unconscious to most
> > of us.
> >
> > Whether you call this brain washing, or a culture that is
> > often shaped to serve commercial interests above broader
> > human ones, the fact remains that we have one of the most
> > car dependent cultures on the planet.
>
> You should experience some of the peer pressure I've undergone
> because of my refusal to drive. I've never wanted nor needed
> a car. Still don't. For myself, having to worry about
> insurance premiums, theft, accidents, fuel prices, parking spots,
> parking fees, emissions, inspections, maintenance & repairs and
> the rest, is the opposite of freedom.
>
> Friends, relatives and associates, even to this point in time
> occasionally hound me to take up driving. The more they do,
> the more adamant I become. It makes me feel like the protagonist
> in those futuristic/apocalyptic sci-fi movies where the mutants
> try to get him to become a mutant himself.
Interesting. I commute to work by bike and trolley. I'm the only one
at my workplace to do so. The only responses I've received were
admiration tinged with envy ("I wish I could do that!"), and approving
indifference ("That's cool.")
I have never had a negative response to what I'm doing. Not my
parents, not my roommate (who commutes to work by train and walks from
the train station), not my friends, not my coworkers. And even if
someone objected - so what? It's none of their business, after all.
LM
Larisa
> Following up on my previous question, let me add the following
> comments/remarks.....
>
> 1. I was not referring to having sex in the back seat -- not that I mind
> that, but it was not the "thrust" of my question -- pun intended
>
> 2. someone remarked that I shouldn't be interested in a woman that doesn't
> understand/sympathise with my car-less-ness . I have a car, but was simply
> respionding to those who were advocating/commenting on a carless lifestyle.
>
> 3. someone also comented on society having gotten by without cars for many
> years -- true enough, but once something becomes commonplace, peoples'
> expectations and comfort zones change. I went many years without a
> computer, e.g., but once they became affordable and I got one, now I'm not
> sure how much of a challenge it would be to be without -- I COULD do it, but
> it would be qa colossal PITA.
>
> 4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters could
> bike to meet for dates, or that the male biker should suggest that the woman
> always drive? remember, renting cars or taking cabs is not a carless
> lifestyle, it's merely a car-ownership less one.
>
> 5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
> bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
Aren't there any carless women around?
LM
Kiira Triea
"Mark D. Schneider" <msch...@21stcentury.net> wrote in message news:<9oakc1$gcf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
| 5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
| bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
They say "I wish I could do that". (commute to work)
Kiira
Kiira Triea
| 4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters could
| bike to meet for dates,
Winter? What winter? Sorry, I'm from Finland? :-)
Actually I have gone on dates where we bothed biked in winter weather,
once in quite a snowstorm, to dinner and a movie and I thought it was
much more fun and romantic than driving a car.
Kiira
Claire Petersky
Women are more likely to have responsibility for children. It's harder (not
impossible) to be carfree with kids.
--
Warm Regards,
Claire Petersky (cpet...@yahoo.com)
"Do not muzzle an ox when it is treading grain." Deut. 25:4
Home of the meditative bicyclist:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Bicycle_Meditations.htm
Jack Dingler
discouraged from driving their kids to and from school because they felt
that cars could pose a safety hazard to children walking and biking in
the vicinity. No kids shouldn't walk anywhere near schools as the cars
do pose a safety hazard.
I tried cycling past a grade school a few years ago, one morning. I'm
not stupid enough to try it again, several soccer moms got angry with me
for doing a little over 20mph in a school zone and raced past me, then
cut me off, nearly running me off the road. They were in a hurry and
didn't have time for speed limits in front of a school.
Jack Dingler
Steven Bornfeld
can't park (legally) anywhere nearby. And getting out of the area is worth
your life.
Steve
Beth F
> >
> > 2. someone remarked that I shouldn't be interested in a woman that
doesn't
> > understand/sympathise with my car-less-ness . I have a car, but was
simply
> > respionding to those who were advocating/commenting on a carless
lifestyle.
> >
If a woman "sympathizes" with your carlessness, thats probably not a great
situation. Approves is probably better!
> > 3. someone also comented on society having gotten by without cars for
many
> > years -- true enough, but once something becomes commonplace, peoples'
> > expectations and comfort zones change. I went many years without a
> > computer, e.g., but once they became affordable and I got one, now I'm
not
> > sure how much of a challenge it would be to be without -- I COULD do it,
but
> > it would be qa colossal PITA.
> >
I suppose this is true. When I moved to Alaska I was carless, and took the
bus (didn't bike yet) and taxis everywhere. This was after living in the
burbs and driving everywhere for many years. It actually was less of an
inconvenience than I had expected. However, i lived alone, and had the
opportunity to choose my location based on the carlessness. If I had two
kids, and a dog to shop for and to take to basketball practice/swimming
lessons/dance class/obedience school it might be a completely different
story. I know of few carless families who dont' live in a large city with
great public transportation. I do know some - and I respect them, but I
expect those kids miss out on some extra-cirricular activities that I got to
go to.
> > 4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters
could
> > bike to meet for dates, or that the male biker should suggest that the
woman
> > always drive? remember, renting cars or taking cabs is not a carless
> > lifestyle, it's merely a car-ownership less one.
> >
Take the bus? Take a taxi? Cities are made for no-car-ownership dates.
Taking a bus isn't carless either.
> > 5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
> > bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
>
I think many of my professional friends would never date a carless man.
But I know a couple who would. I would think that if the politics of giving
up your car are important to you then dating a woman who approves would also
be a necesity!
Zoot Katz
Steven Bornfeld <mari...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I drive my daughter to school. I'm starting to think it's a mistake--you
>can't park (legally) anywhere nearby. And getting out of the area is worth
>your life.
>
>Steve
ARRRGHGHGHGHGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I HATE RIDING THROUGH SCHOOL ZONES!!!!!!!!!!
All these damn people in their stinking cars are so preoccupied looking
for their precious progeny that they are NOT looking where they're
going. Teach the kid to ride safely by accompanying them on your bike.
KILL YOUR CAR!
or at least bury the vile stinking thing.
--
zk
Dan Gillette
were dropped off by their parents. A great thing happened: a student and his
father started biking to the school (due to all the traffic created by other
parents, it wasn't that safe for the kid to ride alone). A lot of people
thought they were crazy, but by the end of the year, the father was escorted
a sizeable group of biking kids. It was so wonderful to see. The kids also
really loved my recumbent and though it took up half of my office, the
administration had no problem with me parking it there. We also ran a bike
trip once a year run by the assistant principal, a serious bike tourist
himself.
- Dan
"Steven Bornfeld" <mari...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BC64A4A...@hotmail.com...
Gene Floyd
> > Aren't there any carless women around?
>
> Women are more likely to have responsibility for children. It's harder (not
> impossible) to be carfree with kids.
You're right - it's not impossible. I was car-free for almost 2 years after my
ex left me with 3 kids. They were 5, 3, and 1 when she left, and at first I was
bitter as hell that she would do that to us (take our car). Luckily, my two
oldest kids were already riding and it was simple enough to let the oldest one
lead (following my verbal instructions to stop, turn, etc), the middle one play
"follow-the-leader", and the youngest rode in a Rhode gear seat on my bike.
After a while of doing the daily routine of walking the oldest 2 to the nearest
crossing guard (they were in continuous site of one crossing guard or another
the rest of the way to school), taking the youngest to daycare, riding the 10
miles to the local community college, and then reversing everything on the way
home, I began to realize what a favor she had done us. We were too broke to
have afforded a car and it would have been just one more headache to take food
out of my kids' mouth. As it was, I never missed class or work (I worked in the
computer lab at school) due to not having enough gas money, and coming up with
enough $$ for a car payment never entered my mind. On top of that, as stressful
as the divorce and subsequent years of single-parenting were, the daily
exercise probably kept us from losing our sanity.
I didn't go back to driving a car until I started driving for a taxicab company
and the owner told me to take my cab home with me.
Jack Kessler
"Zoot Katz" <zoot...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:3bca6bb3...@news.look.ca...
Bob Becker
Cycling cannot replace a car without problems.
If you have a car without problems, keep it.
Not too many cars have no problems.
Bob G
"Bob Becker" <b...@becker.org> wrote in message
news:KQjF7.14425$7x1.1...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Bob
Larisa
Bob G
"Larisa" <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:34e2d56d.01110...@posting.google.com...
Bob
Gene Floyd
> situation. Approves is probably better!
True...can you say "co-dependent"?
> > > 3. someone also comented on society having gotten by without cars for
> many
> > > years -- true enough, but once something becomes commonplace, peoples'
> > > expectations and comfort zones change. I went many years without a
> > > computer, e.g., but once they became affordable and I got one, now I'm
> not
> > > sure how much of a challenge it would be to be without -- I COULD do it,
> but
> > > it would be qa colossal PITA.
Not really...you learn to adapt and in some ways, my ex did us a huge
favor by not forcing us to sacrifice so much to the support and care
of a car.
> I suppose this is true. When I moved to Alaska I was carless, and took the
> bus (didn't bike yet) and taxis everywhere. This was after living in the
> burbs and driving everywhere for many years. It actually was less of an
> inconvenience than I had expected. However, i lived alone, and had the
> opportunity to choose my location based on the carlessness. If I had two
> kids, and a dog to shop for and to take to basketball practice/swimming
> lessons/dance class/obedience school it might be a completely different
> story. I know of few carless families who dont' live in a large city with
> great public transportation. I do know some - and I respect them, but I
> expect those kids miss out on some extra-cirricular activities that I got to
> go to.
So instead of dance class, my kids got to go biking with daddy every
day and hang out at the bike shop or with the local cycling club at
picnics and such. At his first mountain-bike race, my 4YO took 2nd
place in the 5YO category. Even now, they still ride their bikes to
Cub Scouts and Civil Air Patrol. The senior member in charge of cadets
is the head of the local commuter council, and his wife is bike-ped
coordinator, so they think it's pretty cool. Not such a bad trade-off.
> > > 4. with chicago winter coming - do you trully think that both daters
> could
> > > bike to meet for dates, or that the male biker should suggest that the
> woman
> > > always drive? remember, renting cars or taking cabs is not a carless
> > > lifestyle, it's merely a car-ownership less one.
>
> Take the bus? Take a taxi? Cities are made for no-car-ownership dates.
> Taking a bus isn't carless either.
Either of the above is still a great alternative to driving
everywhere, just as being a 1-car family still beats owning 2 cars
like most other families of 7 do. Besides, virtually noone lives
completely independent of cars and other motor vehicles. Even your
bike or groceries weren't delivered to the store via pedicab. Having
the option of renting/borrowing a car, taking an occasional cab, or
jumping on a bus is one of the things that makes a mostly car-free
life truly attainable and practial for many. Without those options,
many more would own cars and use them on a daily basis since they
already have one.
> > > 5. what do the women readers think? what do they think their less
> > > bike-oriented female friends would day about these matters?
> >
>
> I think many of my professional friends would never date a carless man.
> But I know a couple who would. I would think that if the politics of giving
> up your car are important to you then dating a woman who approves would also
> be a necesity!
Who'd want to date someone who looked down on your lifestyle choice or
felt sorry for you anyway?
Mark D. Schneider
"Gene Floyd" <gfl...@tfn.net> wrote in message
news:67411b55.01110...@posting.google.com...
>
> Who'd want to date someone who looked down on your lifestyle choice or
> felt sorry for you anyway?
It's been a while since I posted some of my earlier thoughts/questions. I
was not suggesting that I'd want to date (masochistically) a woman who
disaproved of my lifestyle choices. I was simply wondering two things:
1. were most of the people who were going carless already "paired up", and
2. what did they believe that their non-cycle-enthusiast female friends
would think of an adult male who was carless (because of a cycling thing, or
not).
Yes, I'm somewhat newly single (yr. and a half), and even more newbie to
cycling, but am going to take the winter challenge. I've pretty much been a
lone rider, and have felt that it was generally inappropriate to flirt with
female cyclists that I encountered, either by giving chase (somewhat
literally) or approaching women who had stopped for whatever reasons...
So, the personal end of the question regarded myself, but now I have simply
decided that I am who I am, do what I do, and it either floats or not.
thoughts?
Steven Bornfeld
else. It was tough (when I was single) talking up females I'd meet on rides,
but I'm in NY, and resistance to strangers is a healthy adaptive response.
It is too simple to say you'd want nothing to do with a woman who didn't
approve of your choice. OTOH, anyone can learn to live with it--if they want
to.
I heard Rob Reiner say once that the best advice he'd heard about finding a
mate came from his mom, who said "Find someone you can stand."
There's a lot of truth there. If you're looking for something to pick apart
(or if the woman is), you're always going to find something. My wife rarely
cycles (and I cycle less since I became a dad), but the trick was finding a
volume of cycling we both could live with. That volume is plastic--I expect it
to go up again as our daughter gets older.
Accept that your attitudes won't always be the same, and you'll be alright.
Good luck,
Steve
Tom Keats
"Mark D. Schneider" <msch...@21stcentury.net> writes:
> So, the personal end of the question regarded myself, but now I have simply
> decided that I am who I am, do what I do, and it either floats or not.
>
> thoughts?
It's not about the bike. Or car. Or lack thereof ;-)
cheers,
Tom
--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply
Zoot Katz
"Mark D. Schneider" <msch...@21stcentury.net> wrote:
\
>So, the personal end of the question regarded myself, but now I have simply
>decided that I am who I am, do what I do, and it either floats or not.
>
>thoughts?
>
since I started riding a bike again. All the new people I've met ride a
bike as lifestyle choice. There are definitely more people now making
that choice than there were before when it was only bike geeks and
beatniks. My old friends and acquaintances remember me as "the bike
guy". I've never considered it a stigma.
I didn't experience any symptoms of my usual doldrums last winter. I
attribute that to cycling through the short days. That's an attractive
advantage.
--
zk
Eric S. Sande
>simply decided that I am who I am, do what I do, and it either floats
>or not.
There isn't anything that riding a bicycle can do for you. Maybe you
should get a boat.
--
_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhi...@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________
BethF
> day and hang out at the bike shop or with the local cycling club at
> picnics and such. At his first mountain-bike race, my 4YO took 2nd
> place in the 5YO category. Even now, they still ride their bikes to
> Cub Scouts and Civil Air Patrol. The senior member in charge of cadets
> is the head of the local commuter council, and his wife is bike-ped
> coordinator, so they think it's pretty cool. Not such a bad trade-off.
Well, i am not implying it can't be done, just that its much more
complicated with kids and it takes sacrifice. I dont' know if I want my kid
to sacrifice extracirricular activities (when I have them).
And thats a choice you made, however there is nothing wrong with a kid
wanting dance or art lessons instead of going biking every day. And I think
kids should be given the opportunity to explore their talents and interests.
What if your 4 year old hated biking? Would that be ok with you?
> Either of the above is still a great alternative to driving
> everywhere, just as being a 1-car family still beats owning 2 cars
> like most other families of 7 do. Besides, virtually noone lives
> completely independent of cars and other motor vehicles. Even your
> bike or groceries weren't delivered to the store via pedicab. Having
> the option of renting/borrowing a car, taking an occasional cab, or
> jumping on a bus is one of the things that makes a mostly car-free
> life truly attainable and practial for many. Without those options,
> many more would own cars and use them on a daily basis since they
> already have one.
>
Not arguing with this at all.
BethF
>
> "Gene Floyd" <gfl...@tfn.net> wrote in message
> news:67411b55.01110...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Who'd want to date someone who looked down on your lifestyle choice or
> > felt sorry for you anyway?
>
> It's been a while since I posted some of my earlier thoughts/questions. I
> was not suggesting that I'd want to date (masochistically) a woman who
> disaproved of my lifestyle choices. I was simply wondering two things:
>
> 1. were most of the people who were going carless already "paired up", and
>
> 2. what did they believe that their non-cycle-enthusiast female friends
> would think of an adult male who was carless (because of a cycling thing,
or
> not).
>
> Yes, I'm somewhat newly single (yr. and a half), and even more newbie to
> cycling, but am going to take the winter challenge. I've pretty much been
a
> lone rider, and have felt that it was generally inappropriate to flirt
with
> female cyclists that I encountered, either by giving chase (somewhat
> literally) or approaching women who had stopped for whatever reasons...
>
ROFLMAO, I can assure you that most other male cyclists don't feel it
inappropriate at all to flirt with lone female cyclists. Go for it.
--
-Beth, Pseudo usenet cop
Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike
Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy)
Anchorage, Alaska
Chris
Cycling is a good way to reduce pollution
Chris
Cycling is a good way to reduce pollution
Gene Floyd
> > day and hang out at the bike shop or with the local cycling club at
> > picnics and such. At his first mountain-bike race, my 4YO took 2nd
> > place in the 5YO category. Even now, they still ride their bikes to
> > Cub Scouts and Civil Air Patrol. The senior member in charge of cadets
> > is the head of the local commuter council, and his wife is bike-ped
> > coordinator, so they think it's pretty cool. Not such a bad trade-off.
>
> Well, i am not implying it can't be done, just that its much more
> complicated with kids and it takes sacrifice. I dont' know if I want my kid
> to sacrifice extracirricular activities (when I have them).
Nothing was sacrificed. Granted, at first I was fairly bitter that she
took our car when she left, but it didn't take long to realize what a
blessing it was. No scrounging for spare change for gas money, no
sacrificing what little entertainment budget we had to make a
car/insurance payment or pay for repairs. All that money that would
have been spent on a car got spent on us as a family instead.
> And thats a choice you made, however there is nothing wrong with a kid
> wanting dance or art lessons instead of going biking every day. And I think
> kids should be given the opportunity to explore their talents and interests.
> What if your 4 year old hated biking? Would that be ok with you?
Actually, it wasn't exactly a choice. When my ex left us, she took the
car with her. He wouldn't have had a choice - it was either ride a
bike or stay at home. If he had absolutely hated it, then perhaps I
would have felt more pressure to get a car, but it would have meant
stretching our budget even tighter, and that would have caused us even
more hardship. Overall, being car-free (at least for that time) was
probably the best thing that could have happened to us.
BethF
the kids. I would call her bad names but I think that would be a mistake.
Its great that the carless thing worked out for your family. I think that
it takes alot of dedication and I also think it takes a certain togetherness
in a family - which alot of families lack today. Maybe its the other way
around, that the togetherness comes from spending all this time together on
a bike.
I hope the kids still bike when they are 30!!
--
-Beth, Pseudo usenet cop
Merlin MTB, BikeE AT, RANS gliss, Trek R200, Kickbike
Owned by Kavik (Samoyed Boy)
Anchorage, Alaska
"Gene Floyd" <gfl...@tfn.net> wrote in message
news:67411b55.01111...@posting.google.com...
Gene Floyd
> I am sorry Gene - I hadn't understood that your ex took the car and left
> the kids. I would call her bad names but I think that would be a mistake.
Take a number and get in line :)
> Its great that the carless thing worked out for your family. I think that
> it takes alot of dedication and I also think it takes a certain togetherness
> in a family - which alot of families lack today. Maybe its the other way
> around, that the togetherness comes from spending all this time together on
> a bike.
I think that really helped us a lot. We went through some really tough
times together, and in addition to the quality family time, I think
the exercise helped us with some of the unreal stress we were going
through (my mom had just died, and halfway through the divorce, a
close family friend was killed). I honestly don't know if we'd have
made it without our biking.
> I hope the kids still bike when they are 30!!
I do too. I've told them that I'm going to brainwash them to the point
that as soon as I retire, they'll drop everything they are doing and
meet me in San Francisco to help me celebrate retirement by riding
coast-to-coast. At least they'll have plenty of time between now and
then to prepare, save, and build vacation time :)