Should I wear a helmet?
blue girl with white hair and red eyes
this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help? has
anyone had any real experience with a helmet in a fall? The only
anecdote I can provide is one time I was backpacking at Dinosaur
Valley. I was packing up my tent in the morning and heard a sound....a
couple of mountain bikers coming by. They stopped and chatted with me
a minute or two beofre riding on. After several hours of hiking i made
it back to the road and my truck. There was a truck parked next to me.
As I was putting my gear up along came those 2 bikers. One of them was
carrying his helmet and had blood on his face. He told me that he was
going down a steep hill, hit a root and got thrown from his bike and
his head hit a boulder and split his helmet in half. He said you gotta
throw it away and get a new one if you even get a small bump. From the
looks of it, the blow would have surely cracked his skull open because
it was split wide. So even after seeing that...I wonder if i should
spend the money on a helmet. I dont have much to spend and it seems
uneccesary because I wont be doind the kind of stuff like that which
gets you into those situations.....but since I also go up to the store
and back you can never be sure.
How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
any input would be appreciated.
Greg P.
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
| How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
| do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
| been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
I have a new pricey Bell helmet that matches my bike. I only time I ever
wear it is when I'm doing downhill/technical trails that may provide a way
to endo from a stump or something.
When I'm on the road commuting, I don't wear it. It looks way too dorky (I
don't give a damn if it's safer, I just won't wear it). Plus if a car ends
up slamming me, I doubt that a protected head will save you from a rib cage
break that snaps it into your lungs so you're coughing up blood and dying on
the spot...with a nice shiny helmet on your head.
Mike S.
"Pat" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:bkd414$g0tn$1...@ID-194653.news.uni-berlin.de...
> x-no-archive:yes
>
> > I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
> > this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
> > of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
> > intend to fall off and hit my head.
>
are
> starting from Denton--on your bike.
>
> Nobody "intends" to fall.
>
> Think about it.
>
>
Its called an "accident" for a reason. If it were planned...
I was riding along talking to the guy next to me last Sat on the SDBC ride
here in San Diego. We were talking about the guy in the Acura that wasn't
moving out of the lane in Encinitas. As we were passing a slower rider on
the right, he moved left, I moved left. There was a guy and a girl chatting
passing us on the left side. They moved right just as I was moving left.
I went down so fast I didn't even have time to let go of my bars.
As my head bounced off the asphalt, splitting my helmet, all I could do is
lay there for a moment. Ugh! That hurt! You know it isn't good when you
don't bounce up and ask how the bike is.
I have a nifty bruise on my forehead, forearm, shoulder, and a very sore
neck. I hate to think about the meatwagon ride I'd have to have taken
without a helmet on.
So, what was that about not wearing a helmet again? The FIRST thing you
should do is go buy one. You don't need to spend a lot of money ($20-30
should do) because all of the helmets out there have to pass the same safety
standards. Just make sure that where you buy your helmet helps you set the
straps correctly.
And WEAR it! A helmet doesn't do you any good hanging on your bars.
Mike
> Pat in TX
>
>
Mike Beauchamp
this trail is like, but nobody really plans on falling and a lot of people
end up falling. Helmets are pretty darn light and they have a lot of vents..
sometimes I even forget I have mine on. They also give off a more serious
vibe, like you take your biking more seriously than the casual rider. if
that helps at all... and girls look pretty cute in them :)
Definately wear one if you plan on riding in traffic. I mean, think about
it... lets say one day you do fall, or get hit or something... you'll be
kicking yourself in the ass for not spending a mere $50 on a helmet. An
obvious point, but still...
The first time I ever went serious mountain biking (before I ever got a
serious mountain bike) I was about 2KM's into the trail on a pretty nice
downhill that made a sweeping left hander with a real obvious tree just on
the outside of the corner. Being new to the whole thing, I seemed to
concentrate more on the tree than on the trail and I went straight into it
at about 30KM/H. Straight over the handlebar and into the tree. My first
helmet, a Bell Cruiser (huuge thing with solid plastic shell) was nicely
dented and scraped and my forks were bent right back. That's really the only
time a helmet helped me and that was like 10 years ago! I still wear one
when riding to school every day, etc.
Hope that helps... white girl with red hair and blue eyes.
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
Mike Krueger
<< When I'm on the road commuting, I don't wear it. It looks way too dorky (I
don't give a damn if it's safer, I just won't wear it). Plus if a car ends
up slamming me, I doubt that a protected head will save you from a rib cage
break that snaps it into your lungs so you're coughing up blood and dying on
the spot...with a nice shiny helmet on your head. >>
When we scrape you off the road, at least you won't
Mike Krueger
<< When I'm on the road commuting, I don't wear it. It looks way too dorky (I
don't give a damn if it's safer, I just won't wear it). Plus if a car ends
up slamming me, I doubt that a protected head will save you from a rib cage
break that snaps it into your lungs so you're coughing up blood and dying on
the spot...with a nice shiny helmet on your head. >>
My best friend was hit by a car last week. He was wearing a helmet and is OK.
The driver told the cops that he ran the stop sign because he was late for
work.
Congratulations-you get today's RBT Darwin Award. When we scrape you off the
road, at least your crushed skull won't look dorky.
Duffy Pratt
definitely a lifesaver.
Duffy
Werehatrack
with white hair and red eyes) may have said:
>I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
>this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
>of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet.
No helmet is no protection. On the other hand, the trail you
mentioned for this weekend has a low risk factor if I recall
correctly, and your likelihood of injury is small if you ride
carefully, but beware of the fact that this trail is popular; your
biggest hazard on a weekend is from other bikes, rollerbladers, etc.
Still, if you stop by one of the larger Goodwill stores, you'll
probably find a seviceable helmet for $5; it's worth the money at that
price. If they don't have any, then Academy usually has helmets in
the under-$30 range new. If that's beyond your budget, I personally
would not scratch the ride for the lack of one in your particular
instance, because you won't be on a trail that has a lot of grades or
drop-offs, and you won't be running with vehicular traffic.
If you're riding with a group, though, it's entirely possible that a
helmet will be mandatory for participation. It would probably be
worthwhile to check.
--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
TBGibb
nyarrl...@antisocial.com (blue girl with white hair and red eyes) writes:
snip
> So even after seeing that...I wonder if i should
>spend the money on a helmet. I dont have much to spend and it seems
>uneccesary because I wont be doind the kind of stuff like that which
>gets you into those situations.....but since I also go up to the store
>and back you can never be sure.
One can fall off a bike under almost any circumstances, after all you are
balancing on two wheels.
Do you have the cash to pay a brain surgeon?
>How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
>do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
>been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
I ride with one. On two occasions I've been spared injury (at least) by my
helmet. For the "antihelmet" zelots, if you are stunned after bouncing your
helmeted head off of packed dirt you, at the very least, would be more than
stunned without one.
Tom Gibb <TBG...@aol.com>
Jay Beattie
"Mike Krueger" <skub...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030918174811...@mb-m10.aol.com...
O.K., on my news reader, this was the fifth post. That may be a record
as for the fastest invocation of Darwin in a helmet thread. It usually
takes about seven posts. Whatever happended to the good old days when
people cited the pro-helmet Rivara studies and the anti-helmet reports
of Australians refusing to ride their bikes? Get the protocal right:
you have to at least make the argument that helmets make a difference
before you call someone an idiot for not wearing one. I believe that a
helmet will prevent certain injuries, so I wear one; however, I still
miss the real counter-arguments. "Helmets look dorky" just doesn't have
much pursuasive force. Tom K., J Poulos . . . where are you? -- Jay
Beattie.
Chris B.
with white hair and red eyes) wrote:
[..]
>How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
>do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
>been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
>
>any input would be appreciated.
Probably a troll but I'll play along.
Wear one or don't, it's a decision you'll have to make for yourself.
I used to wear one religiously, now I don't. I encourage you to read
up on both sides of the subject so that you are at least not making
the decision in ignorance.
I would however, caution you from believing that it will offer any
significant protection, otherwise you will be as big a fool as the
ignorant, self righteous simpletons that have already been heard from.
--
Chris Bird
Tim Jones
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
> any input would be appreciated.
From my perspective, I always wear a helmet (it's law in Australia anyway).
For the ride that you are doing, buying a helmet is a definite
recommendation, however if you are riding at or below 10mph all the time and
constantly on easy trail it is pretty safe.
For my own experience, I split my helmet in half going down a bike path
alone with no-one else around. Took a corner fast (about 20mph) and hit a
piece of tanbark (on a road bike). Was losing it, over corrected and
catupulted myself into the ground, cracking the helmet and embedding gravel
into the polystyrene.
Also had a car do an illegal turn right in front of me - bounced over his
bonnet and landed on my head on the other side.
Both accidents were ones I didn't expect and the helmet certaining helped.
As said though, if you are doing a relaxing ride with no cars around on easy
tracks the risk is relitively low.
Cheers,
Tim
Greg P.
news:3f6a53ce$0$23596$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
| Also had a car do an illegal turn right in front of me - bounced over his
| bonnet and landed on my head on the other side.
What was the aftermath of the car accident? What did the driver do/say?
Chris B.
A helmet is designed to resist forces capable of crushing your skull?
I thought that it was to reduce the rate of acceleration of the brain
towards the inside of the skull. Perhaps you could expand on your
incredible knowledge of helmets for the good of us who clearly have
such an incomplete understanding of the subject? <g>
--
Chris Bird
S. Anderson
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
<<snip..>>
> How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
> do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
> been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
>
> any input would be appreciated.
I would challenge you to use what the helmet is designed to protect and make
up your own mind about whether to wear one. Don't be a lemming. Are you
going to entrust your health to a bunch of people you don't know on the
internet?!?! I assume you're over 18 and if so, you're just as qualified as
anyone here to make a decision. Life's dangerous..deal with it in whatever
way YOU feel is appropriate.
Cheers,
Scott..
Chris B.
"crushing".
It would be funny if so many of these people didn't actively or
passively promote the notion that a helmet a substitute for teaching
people how to ride with minimum risk in the first place.
--
Chris Bird
Tom
Do you have car insurance?
Do you have house insurance?
Insurance is to protect you from losses you can't afford pay.
A helmet is 'insurance' that could save your life. It did my wife, twice.
Tom
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Joel Rose
are dedicated to riding and wouldn't consider posting a dummy question like
yours. Safety is first and foremost with dedicated riders and if you have to
question your own safety, then why don't you just take your chances.
I hope you are not doing this trail ride with an organized group because any
respectable group or club would have a mandatory helmet rule anyway.
Happy riding
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
Tim Jones
"Chris B." <bikerider@-nospam-thanks-rogers.com> wrote in message
news:pflkmvc2rugt4a3hr...@4ax.com...
Riding with the minimum of risk is fine - 10mph, ride only on bike tracks,
walk the bike when not on a track.
This will minimise risk, and make me much safer than I am wearing a helmet
the way I currently ride. I prefer not to ride like that though.
The way I enjoy riding, I am always pushing myself, I am always racing
myself. I follow road rules and am aware of other users of trails and roads.
Now please tell me, am I safer, equivalent or less safe wearing a helmet
with the way that I ride?
Tim
Tim Jones
"Greg P." <y...@aint.getting.it> wrote in message
news:owsab.7982$UN4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I dragged my self and the bike off the road and sat on the gutter. After a
few minutes of pulling myself together, I finally got up, went over to him
(he did not approach me!) while he was checkingand said "I just want make
sure that you're OK to pay for the damages".
His reply (as I was riding to the side of stationary traffic, someone left a
space for him) was "as far as I'm concerned, it was your fault". Funilly
enough, he was a used car salesman (and this was a car lot vehicle) -
extending the stereotype.
He changed his tune after the police report. He was going to lose his
license if he didn't pay up based upon him being at the brink of losing it
anyway.
He paid up for the damages in the end ($380).
Tim
Greg P.
| He changed his tune after the police report. He was going to lose his
| license if he didn't pay up based upon him being at the brink of losing it
| anyway.
Good for you! It's sad that the world is full of such jackasses as him.
mrbubl
What is your head worth?
Are you an organ donor?
Call any neurologist and ask them what an ER consult costs.
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
Chalo
wrote:
> Im trying to keep costs low and one
> of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
> intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help?
You should wear a helmet if riding without one makes you
uncomfortable. You should not, however, make a lot of assumptions
about what injuries they have or haven't prevented when they get
smashed up.
I have smashed helmets before; I have also hit my head much harder
yet, without a helmet, and not suffered serious injury. In my opinion
they function better as scalp protectors than as brain protectors and
should be worn accordingly.
> He said you gotta
> throw it away and get a new one if you even get a small bump. From the
> looks of it, the blow would have surely cracked his skull open because
> it was split wide.
Yep. Their tendency to get all busted up after a relatively minor
blow is, in a perverse way, good for business. "Surely it would have
been my head otherwise", they think. Well I've tried it both ways,
quite a few times, and I now know better than to assume such things.
Heads are well designed to protect brains. Helmets are well designed
to be sold for profit. But they probably don't cause much harm. You
can likely get one super cheap from your local health dept. or similar
authority, if you would feel more comfortable wearing one.
OTOH, cycling really isn't more dangerous vis-a-vis head injury than
many things people do without helmets, like driving cars, showering,
or climbing stairs and ladders.
The recent push to put a helmet on every cyclist by default has turned
me from an occasional helmet wearer to a strict abstainer. I'll wear
one on my motorbike, partly because of its safety and comfort benefits
and partly because I am obligated by law. But on my pushbike? Never
again. What little safety it may offer is definitely not worth giving
up the choice of whether or not to wear one.
Chalo Colina
Chalo
> They moved right just as I was moving left.
>
> I went down so fast I didn't even have time to let go of my bars.
...
> I hate to think about the meatwagon ride I'd have to have taken
> without a helmet on.
I crashed that way once in Austin, and smacked my bean hard on the
side. No helmet. No detectable head injury. No ride on the meat
wagon.
"You might have a mild concussion," the UT Student Health Center doc
said, "so you should take it easy for a few days just to be on the
safe side."
It was one of many data points that together let me know the value of
bike helmets is, at best, overrated.
Chalo Colina
j morelstein
expensive ones--and wear it. I have been in two accidents in my life (one
last winter) in which I fell on my head and broke the helmet. Presumably
without the helmet I would have broken my head or at least suffered a severe
concussion. Perhaps the odds of getting into that kind of accident on a
one-off trip are small--but the price of the helmet will not matter to you
if do have an accident and it protects you.
Enjoy the trip and ride safely.
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
Mark Wolfe
to go towards the more expensive ones now. $30 head, $30 helmet.
--
Mark Wolfe http://www.wolfenet.org
gpg fingerprint = 42B6 EFEB 5414 AA18 01B7 64AC EF46 F7E6 82F6 8C71
Overall there is a smell of fried onions. (fnord)
Robert Chambers
100,000 miles in the last 10 years. The first time, I crashed while riding
in a paceline when we crossed some RR tracks and the guy in front of me went
down and I went over the top of him. I broke my kneecap completely in two.
It was horrible.
The second crash was 11 months ago. An oncoming car made an unsignaled left
turn and hit me head on in an intersection. The driver was talking on a
cell phone and was probably going 25 mph at impact. I was coming down an
hill and had a green light. I was probably going about 25 mph as well. I
sustained a broken hip, pelvis, ankle and a compression fracture of the
spine ... as well as some lacerations.
In both of those wrecks I also hit my head hard enough to do severe damage
to my helmet. I sustained no damage to my head in either wreck.
Frankly, I think anyone who does serious mileage on a bicycle and doesn't
wear a helmet is already brain damaged.
Bob C.
"blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
Robert Chambers
"Chalo" <chump...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8b4b7de4.03091...@posting.google.com...
Robert Chambers
company of the driver who hit me, broke my hip, pelvis, ankle, fractured my
spine and lacerated my leg. Those injuries were sustained during the
initial impact with the car. I then glanced off the windshield and went 20
feet straight up. I came down squarely on my head. The helmet that I lost
in that incident saved my life.
I hope your stupid post doesn't influence anyone NOT to wear their helmet.
Bob C.
Greg P." <m...@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
news:lRoab.7796$UN4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "blue girl with white hair and red eyes" <nyarrl...@antisocial.com>
> wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
> | How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
> | do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
> | been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
>
> I have a new pricey Bell helmet that matches my bike. I only time I ever
> wear it is when I'm doing downhill/technical trails that may provide a way
> to endo from a stump or something.
Greg P.
I agree with you. I've fallen off of my BMX bike (not on trail, just on
sidewalks) doing bunny hops and tricks at fast speeds. My noggin took a
punch or two each time. The helmet really didn't take away any of the
impact, except that it choked me (and I had the thing fitted perfectly).
Plus, when I'm riding fast, the wind causes the damn extra straps to bitch
slaps me, not too fun.
Greg P.
news:bke02t$5u34$1...@news3.infoave.net...
| You would have failed a logic class.
Do you mean his intelligence has dropped after the fall or do you mean by
his general statement?
I agree with him totally and I'm 20yrs old, have a bachelor's, and work as a
software designer. Obviously logic is extremely important in such
situations, no? My algorithms are still as efficient as they were before I
began riding the bike (crashes w/o helmets).
So if the gov't starts demanding bikers to wear full body armor (like
bmx'ers), will not wearing it tag you as being illogical?
Greg P.
I am just trying to make a point. Sorry if it seems like I'm doing
otherwise.
"Greg P." <y...@aint.getting.it> wrote in message
news:wAvab.8204$UN4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Greg P.
to me or my opinions as "stupid". You are implying that people cannot think
for themselves if you believe that my (or anyone's) post will cause people
to or to not wear a helmet.
"Robert Chambers" <tech...@wctel.net> wrote in message
news:bke0c9$5t1k$1...@news3.infoave.net...
Duffy Pratt
> Riding with the minimum of risk is fine - 10mph, ride only on bike tracks,
> walk the bike when not on a track.
Too risky. Put it on a magnet trainer stand. Make sure there are fairly
soft mats surrounding the bike on all sides. And you should still wear your
helmet. If you fall off the trainer, you might get a serious head injury.
Duffy
Sorni
Bill "why risk losing piece of mind?" S.
Anthony Campbell
> Do you wear a seat belt in the car?
> What is your head worth?
> Are you an organ donor?
> Call any neurologist and ask them what an ER consult costs.
>
>
Do you wear a helmet in the car? If not, why not?
AC
--
Using Linux GNU/Debian - Windows-free zone
http://www.acampbell.org.uk (book reviews and articles)
Email: replace "www." with "ac@"
Dave Beyerl
wrote in message news:d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com...
| How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
| do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
| been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
I am glad I was wearing a helmet the last serious fall I
took. I separated from my bike and flew forward to land hard
enough on my right side to break my clavicle and force an elbow
into my ribs fracturing two -- one puncturing the lung. I also
came down hard on my head just above the right eye. As I was
sliding along head-first and face down on blacktop, I caught
glimpses of stones moving by. I tipped my head down and skidded
along on my helmet. That created enough friction to where I
eventually did a 180 flip and landed on my back.
The outer shell of that Bell helmet has what looks like
bear claw marks scraping down it. The styrofoam liner has an
impression of the weave of the cloth cap I was wearing under
the helmet. When I look at those and think that that could have
been my head, it makes me wonder if 1) I would still be here
today, and 2) what my face, or what would be left of it, would
look like.
Do I ride with a helmet -- HECK YES!
Trent Piepho
S. Anderson <scott.a...@zsympaticoz.ca> wrote:
>going to entrust your health to a bunch of people you don't know on the
>internet?!?! I assume you're over 18 and if so, you're just as qualified as
>anyone here to make a decision. Life's dangerous..deal with it in whatever
>way YOU feel is appropriate.
Depending on where you live, there may be groups of cops hiding in the bushes
along bicycle trails ready to pounce on anyone who isn't supporting bell
sports by wearing their helmet. That's what we have in Seattle now. Though
to be honest, the police hiding in the bushes are probably not there solely to
do tax-payer funded advertising for bell sports, but to get cyclists off the
trails, which are changing from transportation corridors to strip parks for
dog-walkers and rollerbladers.
The idea that adults can decide for themselves what risks they are willing to
take and how much they will put up with to mitigate those risks doesn't apply
to cyclists. They need to be told what to wear for their own good. And if
writing cyclists tickets for what they wear gets them off the trails and
roads, so much the better.
Super Slinky
> I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
> this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
> of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet.
I agree this is probably a troll. You are going on a 70 mile ride and
you don't have an opinion about helmets? If it is a group ride, helmets
will probably be required. Having said that, I think the scare tactics
concerning helmet use are just plain stupid and misleading. I have been
biking for 30 years and I have had many falls and I have the scars to
prove it. I only wear helmets off-road, where the risk of falls is very
high, or when it is required on a group ride. I have only had one head
injury and I'm glad I didn't have a helmet on. That was a face plant at
somewhere near 20mph onto pavement. I got a black eye, massive swelling
and I got to pick asphalt out of my face for a day or two. The road was
wet, which is why I fell and why the abrasions weren't much worse. If I
had been wearing a helmet, my head would have been tilted on impact,
twisting my neck, and probably breaking my jaw and/or teeth. At best it
would have moved the abrasions to a different location.
If you are going on a bike trail, it is just plain silly to make
yourself sweat like a pig under a helmet. For commutes and road rides, I
consider it my responsibility to not get hit by a car, and it has never
happened to me. I don't expect drivers to be safe, courteous, or
anything of the kind. I consider all of them to be idiots playing with a
loaded gun pointed at me. I don't need by legs and arms snapped in five
places any more than I need a head injury. I am extremely vigilant about
knowing where all cars are and what they are doing. If I don't know, I
slow down or get off the road until I do.
Lewis Campbell
times in the past 20+ years.
Generally speaking it is a really good trail to ride but I know of and
have also witnessed quite a few bicycle accidents over the years.
None of these have ocurred because of the rider 'just falling off
their bike'. They were all caused by things such as a dog running in
front of someone, a skater, a headon with another cyclist, etc.
I _always_ wear my helmet because, after giving the subject of helmets
a LOT of thought, over many years, I have come to the conclusion that
there are ONLY TWO good reasons NOT to wear one:-
A ) You don't have a brain.
B ) You have a spare head.
Lewis.
***************************
nyarrl...@antisocial.com (blue girl with white hair and red eyes) wrote in message news:<d85db693.03091...@posting.google.com>...
> I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
> this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
> of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
> intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help? has
> anyone had any real experience with a helmet in a fall? The only
> anecdote I can provide is one time I was backpacking at Dinosaur
> Valley. I was packing up my tent in the morning and heard a sound....a
> couple of mountain bikers coming by. They stopped and chatted with me
> a minute or two beofre riding on. After several hours of hiking i made
> it back to the road and my truck. There was a truck parked next to me.
> As I was putting my gear up along came those 2 bikers. One of them was
> carrying his helmet and had blood on his face. He told me that he was
> going down a steep hill, hit a root and got thrown from his bike and
> his head hit a boulder and split his helmet in half. He said you gotta
> throw it away and get a new one if you even get a small bump. From the
> looks of it, the blow would have surely cracked his skull open because
> it was split wide. So even after seeing that...I wonder if i should
> spend the money on a helmet. I dont have much to spend and it seems
> uneccesary because I wont be doind the kind of stuff like that which
> gets you into those situations.....but since I also go up to the store
> and back you can never be sure.
>
> How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
> do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
> been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
>
David Damerell
>I have a nice pricey new Bell helmet that was paid for by the insurance
>company of the driver who hit me, broke my hip, pelvis, ankle, fractured my
>spine and lacerated my leg. Those injuries were sustained during the
>initial impact with the car. I then glanced off the windshield and went 20
>feet straight up. I came down squarely on my head. The helmet that I lost
>in that incident saved my life.
When did you repeat this experiment with a control unhelmeted head?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
David Damerell
>"Chris B." <bikerider@-nospam-thanks-rogers.com> wrote in message
>>passively promote the notion that a helmet a substitute for teaching
>>people how to ride with minimum risk in the first place.
Of course the road lobby has quite an interest in making one device (paid
for by the cyclist) be seen as the be-all and end-all of cycling safety;
it makes a neat distraction from the fact that most of the danger in
cycling is directly attributable to motor cars.
It's pretty sad that cyclists swallow their propaganda.
>Now please tell me, am I safer, equivalent or less safe wearing a helmet
>with the way that I ride?
The statistics suggests you are neither safer nor less safe.
David Damerell
>Yes. Absolutely no good reason not to.
>Bill "why risk losing piece of mind?" S.
Of course this argument also applies to the lucky rabbit's foot, icon of
the Virgin Mary, blood sacrifice to Eris Discordia, etc. No doubt you
carry all that crap around too?
David Damerell
>A helmet is 'insurance' that could save your life. It did my wife, twice.
No doubt you verified this fact by administering an equivalent blow to her
head after the first incident, which killed her. But what did you do the
second time?
David Damerell
>I _always_ wear my helmet because, after giving the subject of helmets
>a LOT of thought, over many years, I have come to the conclusion that
>there are ONLY TWO good reasons NOT to wear one:-
>A ) You don't have a brain.
Two!
It is odd that the people ignorant of basic statistics have the temerity
to call the rest of us brainless.
dorn
convictions and go bare. The way I look at is kind of like Darwinism,
survival of the fittest and most able to adapt. The rest become extinct.
Eventually the only cyclists left will wear helmets.
Chris
"Lewis Campbell" <lime...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e68f926d.03091...@posting.google.com...
Tom Paterson
>Depending on where you live, there may be groups of cops hiding in the bushes
>along bicycle trails ready to pounce on anyone who isn't supporting bell
>sports by wearing their helmet. That's what we have in Seattle now. Though
>to be honest, the police hiding in the bushes are probably not there solely
>to
>do tax-payer funded advertising for bell sports, but to get cyclists off the
>trails, which are changing from transportation corridors to strip parks for
>dog-walkers and rollerbladers.
>
>The idea that adults can decide for themselves what risks they are willing to
>take and how much they will put up with to mitigate those risks doesn't apply
>to cyclists. They need to be told what to wear for their own good. And if
>writing cyclists tickets for what they wear gets them off the trails and
>roads, so much the better.
You have a mandatory helmet law? Your choice, wear a helmet or get a ticket.
Don't like the law? Change it-- both the state-wide Texas helmet law for
motorcyclists and the City of Austin bicyclist helmet laws were "voted out".
Addressing the "persecuted minority" mentality: If your Seattle trails are
anything like the ones I rode in Houston, bikes are the fastest (legal)
vehicles on them. You also have some fairly large number of cyclists who
"shave" other trail users, incl. other cyclists, while riding much faster than
the other traffic is moving, and not giving any audible warning. I had more
than one rider in Houston explain it to me this way: "screw 'em". Thus, the
police are probably less likely pawns of the Industrial/Political Complex (in
this case) compared to "answering citizen complaints". Not wearing a helmet
when there is a compulsory-wear ordinance is a pretty good indicator of your
overall socialization. A "profile", if you will.
Having been intentionally buzzed by cyclists while walking my children, seen my
dog intentionally burned with a knobby tire, and cut off or forced to the edge
while riding my bike, good for the cops, I appreciate the help in getting the
jerks off the path.
If you can't handle the traffic on the path, ride in the street. --Tom
Paterson
Mike Krueger
<< It's pretty sad that cyclists swallow their propaganda.
>Now please tell me, am I safer, equivalent or less safe wearing a helmet
>with the way that I ride?
The statistics suggests you are neither safer nor less safe. >>
Fabio Casartelli and Andrei Kivilev might disagree with you, if they were alive
today.
Tom Paterson
>Do you wear a helmet in the car? If not, >why not?
No applicable law. Seatbelts. Airbags.
Don't waste your time complaining or trying foolish arguments here. Change the
law or take the tickets. Or move to somewhere with no helmet law.
--Tom Paterson
Brendan Halpin
> David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
> >Now please tell me, am I safer, equivalent or less safe wearing a helmet
> >with the way that I ride?
>
> The statistics suggests you are neither safer nor less safe. >>
>
> Fabio Casartelli and Andrei Kivilev might disagree with you, if they were alive
> today.
Fabio Casartelli hit a rock face-first at c.50mph. A helmet would
have been doubly irrelevant in that situation.
Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-390476; Room F2-025 x 3147
mailto:brendan...@ul.ie http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html
Tom Paterson
>>Yes. Absolutely no good reason not to.
>>Bill "why risk losing piece of mind?" S.
>
>Of course this argument also applies to the lucky rabbit's foot, icon of
>the Virgin Mary, blood sacrifice to Eris Discordia, etc. No doubt you
>carry all that crap around too?
Distortion Field, David? You can do better than that "magic charm" thing. I
know you do-- safe riding doesn't depend on "luck". On the other hand,
sometimes the unexpected happens, even to the best. So you think that "15 mph
less" when a helmeted head hits the pavement is a trifle? Or are you really
complaining about legislation you find intrusive? --Tom Paterson
Qui si parla Campagnolo
| do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
Got hit from behind by a woman in a pickup truck last year. No helmet but no
damage to my head, helmet would not have made a difference. Did have a
concussion when my face hit her windshield(right eye orbit). I wear one now
because my concussion was a serious one and another could be even more serious.
BUT, a helmet is not an automatic life saver or a panacea. It 'may' protect
you, may not. Don't believe the marketing that 'helmet on-OK in a crash, no
helmet-dead in a crash'.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Tom Paterson
>At best it [a helmet]
>would have moved the abrasions to a different location.
Like the helmet, for instance? --Tom Paterson
David Damerell
>I actually encourage those who wish not to wear a helmet to stick to their
>convictions and go bare. The way I look at is kind of like Darwinism,
>survival of the fittest and most able to adapt. The rest become extinct.
>Eventually the only cyclists left will wear helmets.
This is a perfect example of the argument that assumes its conclusion as a
premise.
David Damerell
>David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
>>>Now please tell me, am I safer, equivalent or less safe wearing a helmet
>>>with the way that I ride?
>>The statistics suggests you are neither safer nor less safe.
>Fabio Casartelli and Andrei Kivilev might disagree with you, if they were
>alive today.
Let's try this again in simple language.
Some cyclists do not crash.
Of the cyclists who crash, some wear helmets, and are killed. Some wear
helmets, and are not killed. Some do not wear helmets, and are killed.
Some do not wear helmets, and are not killed.
We already know there are people in all four of the categories. Naming
some of them is not much of an argument. What matters are the relative
numbers.
David Damerell
>>From: David Damerell
>>>Yes. Absolutely no good reason not to.
>>>Bill "why risk losing piece of mind?" S.
>>Of course this argument also applies to the lucky rabbit's foot, icon of
>>the Virgin Mary, blood sacrifice to Eris Discordia, etc. No doubt you
>>carry all that crap around too?
>Distortion Field, David? You can do better than that "magic charm" thing.
Of course you can. But an object that is reputed to work, but cannot
justify that reputation, is a magic charm whether it's a bit of a bunny or
a chunk of polystyrene.
>Or are you really complaining about legislation you find intrusive?
This is "poisoning the well", an elementary logical fallacy. It is also
particularly absurd because Britain has no mandatory helmet law, and I
have never ridden a bicycle in an area that did.
g.daniels
Tom Paterson
>Of course you can. But an object that is reputed to work, but cannot
>justify that reputation, is a magic charm whether it's a bit of a bunny or
>a chunk of polystyrene.
Reputed by whom? Any constant reader of this ng knows something of the
limitations of helmet protection. Just one source of info, certainly there are
others for those who care to look and read.
Can't justify at least some mitigation of injury (whatever the figure, 12-15
mph, and whatever the exact direction of impact)?
As a result of a fall, the helmet shell is gouged, or cracked or broken, the
'foam liner crushed, and you're comparing this to a rabbit's foot? Get real.
No, the "life saving" testimony frequent in helmet threads is not provable, but
not exactly disprovable, either, is it?
(I asked):
>>Or are you really complaining about >>legislation you find intrusive?
>This is "poisoning the well", (snip)
No, it's asking a forthright question which is perfectly applicable in this
thread, having been mentioned at least a couple of times.
(unsnip);
> an elementary logical fallacy.
Pedant.
>It is also particularly absurd because >Britain has no mandatory helmet law,
and >I have never ridden a bicycle in an area >that did.
Well thanks for all the general and personal information, but is that "no" in
directly answering the specific question asked? --Tom Paterson
Duffy Pratt
to have lost his life as a result?
Duffy
"Tom Paterson" <dusto...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20030919110017...@mb-m16.aol.com...
Sorni
news:W0e*G2...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Sorni <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote:
> >Yes. Absolutely no good reason not to.
> >Bill "why risk losing piece of mind?" S.
>
> Of course this argument also applies to the lucky rabbit's foot, icon of
> the Virgin Mary, blood sacrifice to Eris Discordia, etc. No doubt you
> carry all that crap around too?
Is Damerell on Demerol? Bloody Hell, you say!
Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
enough to know helmet helps" S.
mt_biker
I'm pretty sure plunging a knife into my chest, or firing a shotgun into
the roof of my mouth will kill me. I don't feel the need to verify these
assumptions.
I suppose we could rig up some lab rats with bikes and helmets...
--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com
David Damerell
>>From: David Damerell
>>Of course you can. But an object that is reputed to work, but cannot
>>justify that reputation, is a magic charm whether it's a bit of a bunny or
>>a chunk of polystyrene.
>mph, and whatever the exact direction of impact)?
Can't justify any effect on death and serious injury.
Helmets may well prevent trivial abrasions - that is not readily subject
to statistical analysis, because these injuries are rarely reported - but
that is a far cry from the life-saving properties claimed.
>No, the "life saving" testimony frequent in helmet threads is not provable,
>but not exactly disprovable, either, is it?
The efficiency of the other magic charms is not exactly disprovable.
In contrast, the sheer proportion of helmet wearers who have "life saving"
stories _does_ show that something is amiss; there is no corresponding
carnage amongst unhelmeted cyclists.
>>>Or are you really complaining about legislation you find intrusive?
>>This is "poisoning the well", (snip)
>No, it's asking a forthright question which is perfectly applicable in this
>thread, having been mentioned at least a couple of times.
This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when you allege that
someone is rationalizing a conclusion for selfish reasons, is also known
as "poisoning the well." (alt.atheism FAQs)
You are advancing the suggestion that people rationalise the conclusion
that helmets are ineffective because they personally do not wish to obey
mandatory helmet laws.
>>an elementary logical fallacy.
>Pedant.
Eh? It's an elementary logical fallacy no matter what you call me.
>>It is also particularly absurd because Britain has no mandatory helmet law,
>>and I have never ridden a bicycle in an area that did.
>Well thanks for all the general and personal information, but is that "no" in
>directly answering the specific question asked?
Obviously it is a "no", since I am unlikely to find legislation that has
never affected me intrusive.
[I do, separately, oppose such laws, since they appear to cause a drop in
the number of cyclists; given the health benefits of cycling this is
clearly pernicious.]
David Damerell
>Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
>enough to know helmet helps" S.
Tell us about the tests you carried out with an unhelmeted head to verify
that the helmet made a difference, please.
Shayne Wissler
> Sorni <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote:
> >Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
> >enough to know helmet helps" S.
>
> Tell us about the tests you carried out with an unhelmeted head to verify
> that the helmet made a difference, please.
Why isn't it obvious that helmets help? If you take all bike crashes,
certainly some of those crashes are going to include head trauma that could
be prevented by wearing a helmet. Or do you dispute that?
It seems like an important question is: how many of those crashes happen?
That's a measure of the risk you're mitigating by wearing the helment. Of
course, it doesn't take into account individual skills and abilities at
avoiding these types of crashes. But take Beloki's crash for example. He was
whipped to the ground. I can easily see how he could have landed such that
whacking his head as he went down was unavoidable. A helmet in this
situation would certainly help.
BTW, don't let the helmet zealots trick you into thinking that your
anti-helmet logic is sound. And it's your own job to identify whether
helmets are a value, it's not our job to prove it to you. If you mess up,
you're the one who will pay.
Shayne Wissler
Trent Piepho
>convictions and go bare. The way I look at is kind of like Darwinism,
>survival of the fittest and most able to adapt. The rest become extinct.
>Eventually the only cyclists left will wear helmets.
Probably the other way around. Countries where cycling is the most common,
such as the Netherlands, China, Germany, Japan, etc., are places where helmet
usage is almost zero. It's only where bicycles aren't commonly seen as a form
of transportation that helmets are used with any frequency.
Are all the Dutch and Japanese cyclists going to suddenly start dieing off,
even though the fatality rate for cyclists in those countries is a fraction of
what is it in the United States? Or are cyclists going to be kicked off roads
in the anti-cycling pro-helmet countries, where cycling is seen as too
dangerous and too few people use a bicycle to have enough of a voice?
I think your belief in the certainty of the former occurring is more the
result of brainwashing by the helmet industry and the safety industry, than
from any rational look at the dangers involved in cycling and the effect a
foam hat has on them.
Tell me, how long do the millions of cyclists not using helmets have to live?
If the pro-bell sports crowd are any indication, accidents that would have
been fatal without a helmet are frequent occurrences. If you used the helmet
evangelists in this thread as your sample population, the chance of a "would
have been fatal" accident happening in a lifetime is around 100%. It would
seem that the Dutch should be pretty much all dead by now. It must just be
luck that any of them are left alive, right?
Mike S.
> anti-helmet logic is sound. And it's your own job to identify whether
> helmets are a value, it's not our job to prove it to you. If you mess up,
> you're the one who will pay.
>
>
> Shayne Wissler
>
vegetable...
I can't claim that a helmet has ever saved my life. I can say that it
mitigated some of the impact last Sat. Would I have had a worse injury than
I have now? Probably, but I'll never know 'cause I'm not willing to try and
replicate the crash without a helmet on.
I have managed to bash tree branches out of my way with my helmet. I've
never had a scratch from doing this. I can guess that without a helmet on
I'd have at least some kind of hematoma on my head.
Will a helmet save my arse if I'm hit at waist level by some idiot cager?
Probably not unless I pirouette on my head after I'm hit.
Is a helmet a cure-all? Nope.
Don't want to wear one? Cool with me, its your life after all.
I can (usually) control my own actions. Its the rest of the world that
makes me nervous... Just one person not paying attention could potentially
ruin my day/week/year/life. (and yes, that applies whether I'm wearing a
helmet or not) Helmets are in the category of insurance for me. I pay
car/homeowners/life insurance just in case, but hope I never have to use
them. I wear a helmet knowing that it is a little protection against the
unknown. After all, accidents aren't planned, hence the name...
This another area that arouses strong opinions. Those that don't wear
helmets are as vociferous as those that believe that they're the best thing
since sliced bread. Your opinion is just that, YOUR opinion. I may not
agree with it, but you're not going to change mine, I'm not going to change
yours...
So, let it be!
Mike
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Tom <tom...@overland.net> wrote:
>>>A helmet is 'insurance' that could save your life. It did my
>>>wife, twice.
>>No doubt you verified this fact by administering an equivalent blow to
>>her head after the first incident, which killed her. But what did you do
>>the second time?
>the roof of my mouth will kill me.
Indeed. However, the situation is rather different with head impacts when
cycling, which we know unhelmeted riders often survive with no adverse
consequences at all.
David Damerell
>"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
>>>enough to know helmet helps" S.
>>Tell us about the tests you carried out with an unhelmeted head to verify
>>that the helmet made a difference, please.
>Why isn't it obvious that helmets help?
It is "obvious", but then it is also obvious that the world is flat and
the stars are just pinpricks in the curtain of night.
>If you take all bike crashes,
>certainly some of those crashes are going to include head trauma that could
>be prevented by wearing a helmet. Or do you dispute that?
It does seem as if the magnitude of the impacts that cause death or
serious injury is enormously greater than the protective value of a
helmet, such that the prevention effect is minimal. It also seems possible
that helmets increase torsional injuries and make crashes more likely
through adverse risk compensation effects.
Of course this is pure speculation; but the established fact is that helmet
wearing has not reduced head injuries in countries with mandatory helmet
laws. The reasons for that admittedly unexpected result are interesting,
but not directly relevant.
>anti-helmet logic is sound. And it's your own job to identify whether
>helmets are a value, it's not our job to prove it to you. If you mess up,
>you're the one who will pay.
This argument - "you can't disprove it, and here's a helping of FUD" -
works equally well for other magic charms, of course.
Super Slinky
> Like the helmet, for instance? --Tom Paterson
No, like to my chin and lips. I assume you have the mental horsepower to
visualize what I am describing, so I can only assume you are being
deliberately obtuse. But who knows? Maybe you really are stupid.
Sorni
> Sorni <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote:
> >Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
> >enough to know helmet helps" S.
>
> Tell us about the tests you carried out with an unhelmeted head to verify
> that the helmet made a difference, please.
The absence of a test does not disprove the assertion. I've been whacked --
hard -- on my helmeted head by tree branches I never saw. I've hit my bare
head on kitchen cabinets or whatever. The bare head hits hurt a LOT more.
I've also taken very fast spills in rock gardens, and bounced my helmeted
head off jagged stone. Not saying I would have died from it, but pretty
damned sure I'd have suffered a serious concussion or worse.
I'm new to road riding, and haven't had the pleasure of taking a fall on
pavement yet. However, should my noggin meet a squared-off curb or car
door, it will at least be cushioned by some plastic and foam.
You're free to do whatever you like.
Bill "no brainer AFAIC" S.
John Forrest Tomlinson
> Still, if you stop by one of
> the larger Goodwill stores, you'll
> probably find a seviceable helmet for
> $5
It seems really nasty to buy a used helmet. A lot of people never
wash their helmet and it's natural for the head to sweat a lot. Seems
sort of disgusting to me.
JT
Shayne Wissler
> Shayne Wissler <thalesN...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>Sorni <so...@bite-me.san.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>Bill "has bounced protected head off rocks and bonked same on branches
>>>>enough to know helmet helps" S.
>>>Tell us about the tests you carried out with an unhelmeted head to verify
>>>that the helmet made a difference, please.
>>Why isn't it obvious that helmets help?
>
> It is "obvious", but then it is also obvious that the world is flat and
> the stars are just pinpricks in the curtain of night.
For someone who on the surface appears to be interested in logic, you take
interesting liberties in how you define words. Perhaps your interest in
logic is constrained to playing word games.
>>If you take all bike crashes,
>>certainly some of those crashes are going to include head trauma that
>>could be prevented by wearing a helmet. Or do you dispute that?
>
> It does seem as if the magnitude of the impacts that cause death or
> serious injury is enormously greater than the protective value of a
> helmet, such that the prevention effect is minimal. It also seems possible
To follow after your method: What statistics do you have on this?
On the contrary, we'd hear more about the deaths than we would about the
person whose head was saved from getting hit hard.
> that helmets increase torsional injuries and make crashes more likely
> through adverse risk compensation effects.
> Of course this is pure speculation;
Yes, which by your standards makes the statement totally irrelevant.
> but the established fact is that
> helmet wearing has not reduced head injuries in countries with mandatory
> helmet laws. The reasons for that admittedly unexpected result are
> interesting, but not directly relevant.
I just want to know what method you propose for answering your own question.
If all it involves is mocking the reasoning abilities of others, well you
can justify virtually any position on those grounds, seeing as how the
reasoning skills of the general populace are quite low.
>>anti-helmet logic is sound. And it's your own job to identify whether
>>helmets are a value, it's not our job to prove it to you. If you mess up,
>>you're the one who will pay.
>
> This argument - "you can't disprove it, and here's a helping of FUD" -
> works equally well for other magic charms, of course.
This was not an argument for helmets. It wasn't an argument for anything in
fact (pop quiz: what logical fallacy were you committing when you
erroneously leapt to the conclusion that I was making an argument?). It was
just a statement of a simple truth, one that you seem to be ignoring in
this thread.
Shayne Wissler
Shayne Wissler
>> BTW, don't let the helmet zealots trick you into thinking that your
>> anti-helmet logic is sound. And it's your own job to identify whether
>> helmets are a value, it's not our job to prove it to you. If you mess up,
>> you're the one who will pay.
>>
> Actually, its probably US that are gonna pay when/if he ends up a
> vegetable...
By that logic he shouldn't be allowed to ride his bike--with or without the
helmet.
Just because society is stupid enough to pay for the stupid mistakes some
people make, doesn't mean that those people don't have the right to make
them.
Shayne Wissler
Tom Paterson
>Can you point to a single post where someone not wearing his helmet claims
>to have lost his life as a result?
>
>Duffy
>
Hey, top-poster: "Everyone who's not here raise their hand". Nyuk nyuk nyuk...
Tom Paterson
>No, like to my chin and lips. I assume you have the mental horsepower to
>visualize what I am describing, so I can only assume you are being
>deliberately obtuse. But who knows? Maybe you really are stupid.
You're the one who said "my head would have been tilted" (don't get picky, I'm
not going back to get it exact). Thus follows: tilted by the helmet, which
means helmet contact with the road/ground, which means the helmet taking some
of the impact and dragging damage.
I watched my daughter high-side off her training-wheel bike when she was racing
some other kids and yanked the bar over sideways. She landed on the molded-in
visor on her kids' Bell, definitely saved some facial damage, since she slid on
the side of the helmet and the visor. --TP
Mike S.
"Super Slinky" <sli...@newmail.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.19d4a4b24...@netnews.comcast.net...
> blue girl with white hair and red eyes said...
>
> > I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
> > this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
> > of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet.
>
> I agree this is probably a troll. You are going on a 70 mile ride and
> you don't have an opinion about helmets? If it is a group ride, helmets
> will probably be required. Having said that, I think the scare tactics
> concerning helmet use are just plain stupid and misleading. I have been
> biking for 30 years and I have had many falls and I have the scars to
> prove it. I only wear helmets off-road, where the risk of falls is very
> high, or when it is required on a group ride. I have only had one head
> injury and I'm glad I didn't have a helmet on. That was a face plant at
> somewhere near 20mph onto pavement. I got a black eye, massive swelling
> and I got to pick asphalt out of my face for a day or two. The road was
> wet, which is why I fell and why the abrasions weren't much worse. If I
> had been wearing a helmet, my head would have been tilted on impact,
> twisting my neck, and probably breaking my jaw and/or teeth. At best it
> would have moved the abrasions to a different location.
>
> yourself sweat like a pig under a helmet. For commutes and road rides, I
> consider it my responsibility to not get hit by a car, and it has never
> happened to me. I don't expect drivers to be safe, courteous, or
> anything of the kind. I consider all of them to be idiots playing with a
> loaded gun pointed at me. I don't need by legs and arms snapped in five
> places any more than I need a head injury. I am extremely vigilant about
> knowing where all cars are and what they are doing. If I don't know, I
> slow down or get off the road until I do.
So, you're saying you are psychic too? Foreseeing ALL possibilities when
riding? Just remember, its the one that you DON'T see that gets you!
Personally, if someone had a loaded gun pointed at me, I'd sure hope I was
wearing a bulletproof vest...
Put it this way. If you KNEW you were going to go down and hit your head
when riding this afternoon, would you wear a helmet?
Mike
Tom Paterson
>In contrast, the sheer proportion of helmet wearers who have "life saving"
>stories _does_ show that something is amiss; there is no corresponding
>carnage amongst unhelmeted cyclists.
Citation?
>This particular form of Argumentum ad Hominem, when you allege that
>someone is rationalizing a conclusion for selfish reasons, is also known
>as "poisoning the well." (alt.atheism FAQs)
I didn't allege, I asked. I also stated my reason for asking in a reply.
>You are advancing the suggestion that people rationalise the conclusion
>that helmets are ineffective because they personally do not wish to obey
>mandatory helmet laws.
Some people hate helmet usage laws and do make rationalizations. One such
rationalization is that because there are "ratings" or "tests" that show
non-perfect protection (based on impact speed) that helmets offer no protection
at all. Wait, that's what you're saying, "no protection". I asked if that was
because you had a problem with mandatory usage laws, since it seems obvious
that "some" direct impact protection is offered. Yes or no could have answered.
>Eh? It's an elementary logical fallacy no >matter what you call me.
It's a question asked to find out where you're coming from when you say helmets
offer no protection, whatever I call you, or however you respond. "Differ with
my opinion? You're poisoning the well!"
You have illustrated one point--since accidents are not repeatable as
experiments, with helmet, without helmet, the "saved my life" statements must
be taken with a grain of salt.
>Obviously it is a "no", since I am unlikely to find legislation that has
>never affected me intrusive.
What do you think of American foreign policy right now, David? Intrusive?
>[I do, separately, oppose such laws, since they appear to cause a drop in
>the number of cyclists; given the health benefits of cycling this is
>clearly pernicious.]
Oh separately my saddle sore! Bias revealed, thanks.
That's always the way this "discussion" runs. If one doesn't "like" helmets
and/or helmet laws, helmets "don't work". The "numbers" on effectiveness are so
fudge-ible, it comes down to bias.
--Tom Paterson
GregR
with white hair and red eyes) wrote:
>I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
>this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
>of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
>intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help?
You don't need to wear a helmet, but for your own sake of safety you
should have your IQ checked.
G
Chalo
> You would have failed a logic class.
You don't have any idea what my other data points were, now do you?
Even if that had been the _only_ one, that would make my logic no
faultier than that of the helmet proponents who cry "saved my life!"
every time they break a bike beanie.
Chalo
Rick Onanian
> OTOH, cycling really isn't more dangerous vis-a-vis head injury than
> many things people do without helmets, like driving cars, showering,
> or climbing stairs and ladders.
Driving: Encased in a two-ton helmet.
Showering: Not moving, nothing around you moving.
Climbing stairs: Moving very slowly. Often on a
soft, carpeted surface.
Climbing ladders: Moving extremely slowly with a
secure grip in one or more points at all
times. Usually done over grass, not on
pavement with cars moving around it (I
said _usually_).
> The recent push to put a helmet on every cyclist by default has turned
> me from an occasional helmet wearer to a strict abstainer. I'll wear
> one on my motorbike, partly because of its safety and comfort benefits
> and partly because I am obligated by law. But on my pushbike? Never
> again. What little safety it may offer is definitely not worth giving
> up the choice of whether or not to wear one.
What makes you think a helmet has safety
benefits on a motorcycle? You don't believe
it has any on a bicycle; what makes the
difference? Further, what comfort benefits
does it have when you use a motor vs. when
you don't use a motor?
On a bicycle, I ride at speeds commonly seen on
motorcycles. Further, on a bicycle, I have a
very small contact patch, and very little weight,
for the end result of very little traction. If
all that isn't enough, I have to share the road
with automotive drivers who don't respect, or
even see sometimes, bicycles. I have two-ton
projectiles whizzing by me in all directions.
And, to top it off, I'm surrounded by hard
pavement and trees.
My principle concern with a helmet is to protect
my head from major abrasians and intrusions,
such as my head hitting the corner of a curb or
rock.
On a mountain bike, I don't worry about traffic,
and my speeds are greatly reduced (never higher
than 30mph, usually under 20; vs. road biking,
usually between 20 and 38), but the terrain is
very suprising and throws me sometimes. I've
never fallen on pavement, but have numerous
times while mountain biking. There are loads of
rocks and trees, and I was able to ride home
from such spills, rather than being passed out
in the wilderness.
On bike / MU paths, around here, I ride without
a helmet. There is no automotive traffic, very
little foot/bike/whatever traffic, and smooth,
predictable traction and surface. I'm willing
to risk it, even though I hit high speeds on
such paths, as most of the other risk factors
are gone.
> Chalo Colina
--
Rick Onanian
Rick Onanian
> I crashed that way once in Austin, and smacked my bean hard on the
> side. No helmet. No detectable head injury. No ride on the meat
> wagon.
> "You might have a mild concussion," the UT Student Health Center doc
> said, "so you should take it easy for a few days just to be on the
> safe side."
> It was one of many data points that together let me know the value of
> bike helmets is, at best, overrated.
<sigh>. Let's try this one:
I was in a gunfight. A shot grazed my leg. It was
one of the many data points that together let me
know the value of bulletproof vests is, at best,
overrated.
Your example of not hitting your head hard enough
to do enough damage to bother you (although you
DID go to see a doctor, for some reason) is not
particularly relevant.
Mike Krueger
Vanity.
They see people in helmets as wimpy and dorky and don't want other
people to think they belong in that category. Sounds like gender identity
problems, or doubts about their own.
It has nothing to do with safety or straps flopping around or it's too
hot or they're too overpriced, etc. Those are whines, just like what you'd
hear trying to get a 7 year old to take a bath. >>
My head sweats a lot, and it drips down into my eyes. I don't care how well the
helmet is vented, it's definitely a lot hotter than riding helmetless. For me,
this is the major drawback. Having said that, I think the benefits outweigh the
problems, and I always wear a helmet when riding on public roads and/or on
group rides.
Rick Onanian
wrote:
> without the helmet I would have broken my head or at least suffered a
> severe concussion.
Not to mention, skin injuries on the head bleed
much more profusely than most other skin injuries.
A helmet protects you from having to bleed so
profusely, which can certainly make you woozy
enough to not be able to ride home (not to
mention, the blood coming down from your head
into your eyes makes it hard to see).
I know. I had an accident once where I did NOT
wear a helmet; my forehead bled profusely, and
I had a hard time seeing through the blood in
my eye. My eyelid and the surrounding area of
my face was also lacerated, which may have been
improved by the helmet's thickness keeping my
eye off the ground.
I really should put pictures of that up. I
took some gruesome pictures of myself after
coming back from the ER (or maybe it was before
I went, but I don't think so).
--
Rick Onanian
blue girl with white hair and red eyes
> my own post snipped <
i found a helmet online for 17 dollars. my main worry was that helmets
dont really do anything anyway but from the responses i saw
here....and from a riding friend at www.itshappening.com i decided
that even the smallest bump would be worth the 17 bucks and the hassle
of carrying it around...i'll lash it to my bike when im off it and
wear it when on.
someone who has X No Archive = Yes set said something about the
trinity river trail not being 70 miles. im a bad judge of distance but
i read that it was 35 miles. thats going from benbrook to sansom park.
its a wonderful trail to ride on and after last weekend i can see how
collisions may occur when going around someone or with a pedestrian.
now i gotta decide whether to park in the stockyards or benbrook lake.
now....lets argue pro-choice vs. pro-life. hehe...j/k
Rick Onanian
> Do you wear a helmet in the car? If not, why not?
I do. My helmet is a GMC Sierra 1500. It is
made mostly of steel, though some composites
were used. It weighs upwards of three tons.
And the strap system is very comfortable, too.
It is illegal to wear helmets in cars in many
or most places. Further, your head is less
able to hit anything in an accident.
> AC
--
Rick Onanian
Rick Onanian
wrote:
> The outer shell of that Bell helmet has what looks like
> bear claw marks scraping down it. The styrofoam liner has an
> impression of the weave of the cloth cap I was wearing under
> the helmet. When I look at those and think that that could have
> been my head, it makes me wonder if 1) I would still be here
> today, and 2) what my face, or what would be left of it, would
> look like.
If you were as extremely lucky as I was, it
would look like this:
http://members.cox.net/thc/BrokenFace.jpg
That was me after a MINOR accident off-road.
I had, at that point, already been cleaned
up, and had stitches in my eyelid.
If I had been wearing a helmet, the scrapes
would have started on my cheek and went down
to my jaw -- much less painful.
If I had YOUR accident, I would probably
still be disfigured today.
> Do I ride with a helmet -- HECK YES!
--
Rick Onanian
Rick Onanian
> In contrast, the sheer proportion of helmet wearers who have "life
> saving"
> stories _does_ show that something is amiss; there is no corresponding
> carnage amongst unhelmeted cyclists.
Dead men tell no stories.
> [I do, separately, oppose such laws, since they appear to cause a drop in
> the number of cyclists; given the health benefits of cycling this is
> clearly pernicious.]
What health benefits? Can you prove it? The
purported health benefits are really just a
tool of the establishment to sell bikes and
excersize equipment.
You, sir, are a health-industry whore.
--
Rick "Bah! Humbug!" Onanian
Chalo
> As I was
> sliding along head-first and face down on blacktop, I caught
> glimpses of stones moving by. I tipped my head down and skidded
> along on my helmet. That created enough friction to where I
> eventually did a 180 flip and landed on my back.
Consider that your head has hair on it, and that hair affects the
"traction" your head can get when exposed to a glancing blow or a
slide. Would human heads have this feature if it did not serve a
survival-related purpose? I don't think so, but you can draw your own
conclusions.
If you had been moving faster, or along a rougher surface, the fact
that your helmet gripped the ground might have killed or paralyzed you
with a broken neck or a rotational trauma to the brain. That's one
reason that motorcycle helmets, a proven technology, have a hard shell
that slides on impact.
Conversely, a head unburdened by a helmet is easier to hold out of
harm's way in a crash. On a few occasions I have sported
"strawberries" seemingly all over my body _except_ for my head and
face. Lucky, perhaps, but not merely coincidental.
Wear a helmet if you wish; wear a motorsports helmet if you want
proven protection. But don't draw false conclusions about the dangers
of falling down or the protection a bicycle helmet can offer. Refer
to the many generations of safe cycling before the commercialization
of helmet use if you need a point of comparison.
Chalo Colina
Mike S.
"Rick Onanian" <spam...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:oprvrnhu...@news.east.cox.net...
Dude, I stay the heck away from the MUTs! Talk about dangerous! Yes, there
are no cars, but there ARE kids, dogs, rollerbladers, joggers, and a load of
other cyclists of varying abilities. All of them scare the bejesus out of
me 'cause they get on the MUT and turn off the brain. Since there are no
cars, we don't have to be as careful seems to be the reasoning...
I've had dogs run across the trail (with and without the 15' long string
attached to them. I've had joggers decided to make a u-turn right in front
of me (wearing headphones, so I couldn't even warn them!). Kids riding
spastically, etc.
I feel safer riding with the cars than I do on MUTs! At least with cars,
you know approximately how they're going to behave... MUTs are one of the
places that I absolutely, positively, always wear a helmet.
Mike
John Forrest Tomlinson
> It's your head.
> I prefer one, after cracking
> a helmet myself, I even tend
> to go towards the more expensive
> ones now. $30 head, $30 helmet.
So your head is worth, what, $125 for a high-end Giro?
JT
(Pete Cresswell)
>In both of those wrecks I also hit my head hard enough to do severe damage
>to my helmet. I sustained no damage to my head in either wreck.
I'll add a motorcycling anecdote.
A drunk clipped me as he changed lanes when I was going about 45 on a flat
straight stretch of road.
Me and the bike did an endo and I wound up doing a sort of swan dive into the
ashphalt.
Cracked a pefectly good Bell helmet, I saw intermittant flashes of light for
about three days, the road rash was a queen bitch, I walked to class and lived
on beans and rice for the rest of the semester, and I probably paid off my
dentist's BMW.
But I'm still here - and that particular accident seems to me to be 100%
repeatable on a bike.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell
(Pete Cresswell)
>ow many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
>do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
>been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
I've ridden a lot of miles with the wind in my hair and the attude that if I'm
doing something that requires head protection I should find something else to
do.
90+ mile rides to the shore every Sunday, 26-mile round trips to work racing
urban traffic....day-long wanderings...
I came around to wearing a helmet through two experiences:
1) On video tape I watched a guy die as he stumbled off a sail-powered
skateboard doing somehting like 2-3 mph. He sort of tripped, fell, and hit his
head on the curb - apparently not all that hard either.
That put me in a receptive state of mind...
2) Some time later - like 1-2 years - my front wheel slid out in some mud and I
went "splat" on the side of my head. When I regained conciousness, I noted a
pyramid-shaped outcropping of stone about 4-5 inches from where my temple
slapped the clay. Somebody probably would've noticed the buzzards - but by
that time there wouldn't have been much left.
Now I've been wearing one of the things for probably 10+ years and sometimes
cursing it on hot days...... But I've ruined at least two of them. Wouldn't
say that either incident would've cost my life without the helmet but one
would've been ugly: a 1" or so deadhead right above the eye socket....speared
the helmet nicely.
Some are more comfortable than others - a *lot* more comfortable.....but nothing
beats the wind in your hair.
OTOH, I've heard the saying "There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots;
but there are very few old, bold pilots." This sort of goes with what a guy I
windsurf with says (who happens to be an orthpaedic surgeon and who even wears
head protection when windsurfing)...it's to the effect of "Remember, you're
guarding against a once-in-a-lifetime incident, not something that happens every
day...
-----------------------
PeteCresswell
(Pete Cresswell)
>If you had been moving faster, or along a rougher surface, the fact
>that your helmet gripped the ground might have killed or paralyzed you
>with a broken neck or a rotational trauma to the brain. That's one
>reason that motorcycle helmets, a proven technology, have a hard shell
>that slides on impact.
This is the one recurrant anti-helmet argument that makes sense to me.
In fact, I messed my neck up last season taking a header windsurfing in (for me,
at least) severe conditions. I usually don't wear a helmet windsurfing, but
when it's gusting to 40, weird things happen... But in this case, I got
slam-dunked headfirst at about 25 mph. Think of sticking your head out the
window in a 100 mph wind. Now think of sticking your head out the same window
in the same wind with something really big strapped to your head....
I still wear a helmet biking, but i'ts got me wondering why the straps on bike
helmets aren't designed to release under a certain load.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell
Bill Davidson
> I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
> this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
> of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
> intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help?
Nobody intends to fall off and hit their head. I've done it a few times anyway. I can
say without reservation that falling and hitting your head on the ground while wearing
a helmet is dramatically less unpleasant than doing so without a helmet.
> has anyone had any real experience with a helmet in a fall?
Yes. Very many people have.
> So even after seeing that...I wonder if i should
> spend the money on a helmet. I dont have much to spend and it seems
> uneccesary because I wont be doind the kind of stuff like that which
> gets you into those situations.....but since I also go up to the store
> and back you can never be sure.
Is US$17.99 too much?
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=91&subcategory=1045&brand=&sku=9320&storetype=&estoreid=
Nashbar has several helmets under $20 right now:
I'd recomend a helmet but it's really up to personal choice.
--Bill Davidson
--
Please remove ".nospam" from my address for email replies.
I'm a 17 year veteran of usenet -- you'd think I'd be over it by now
kh6...@pe.net
Pretty cute. A little blue troll doll. And boy, did you reel them in!X
--------------------------------
Bob Masse' kh6...@PE.NET
--------------------------------
Tim Jones
"Trent Piepho" <t...@venturi.cfr.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bkfbuh$qp0$1...@venturi.cfr.washington.edu...
<...>
> Tell me, how long do the millions of cyclists not using helmets have to
live?
> If the pro-bell sports crowd are any indication, accidents that would have
> been fatal without a helmet are frequent occurrences. If you used the
helmet
> evangelists in this thread as your sample population, the chance of a
"would
> have been fatal" accident happening in a lifetime is around 100%. It
would
> seem that the Dutch should be pretty much all dead by now. It must just
be
> luck that any of them are left alive, right?
Just to start with, I live were helmets are mandated (Australia) and believe
that they are useful.
While I personally have not had an accident that the helmet has saved my
life necessarily, it has certainly saved me from additional injury. In one
case, I would have definitely had a fair amount of head laceration (from
landing on gravel) and a likely concusion (hit hard enough - as is common in
this thread - to split the helmet). The other I bounced over a bonnet onto
my head - I would have head at least a decent bump.
In both these situations, the helmet was replaced (one my expense, the other
a car driver's). So this was a total cost of about AUS$100 (about US$2.50
;-)
In response to comparing the US or Australia to the Netherlands, there is a
fair amount of difference - you are not comparing apples to apples:
1. Most people responding here are avid cyclists - enthusiasts
2. Cycling is a form of common transportation in the Netherlands, the
average dutch cyclist is much less likely to push the envelope than the
proponents here.
3. Dutch cyclists are either riding on cycling roads or with traffic that is
cycling friendly.
Low speed without dangerous drivers around, there is little need for
helmets. High speed or technical riding is much more risky - so is cycling
with drivers that are not courtious to cyclists.
Tim
Tom Paterson
> It would seem that the Dutch should be >pretty much all dead by now. It
must just
>be luck that any of them are left alive, >right?
Well, they've all died (so far) but they made new ones before the passing.
Take a trip to Amsterdam and see how cycling for transportation works, at least
in flat terrain. --Tom Paterson
John Albergo
blue girl with white hair and red eyes wrote:
>I enjoy biking and Im going on the trinity river trail in Fort Worth
>this weekend. (70 mile round trip) Im trying to keep costs low and one
>of the last things I would expect to get would be a helmet. I dont
>intend to fall off and hit my head. Even if i do....would it help? has
>anyone had any real experience with a helmet in a fall? The only
>anecdote I can provide is one time I was backpacking at Dinosaur
>Valley. I was packing up my tent in the morning and heard a sound....a
>couple of mountain bikers coming by. They stopped and chatted with me
>a minute or two beofre riding on. After several hours of hiking i made
>it back to the road and my truck. There was a truck parked next to me.
>As I was putting my gear up along came those 2 bikers. One of them was
>carrying his helmet and had blood on his face. He told me that he was
>going down a steep hill, hit a root and got thrown from his bike and
>his head hit a boulder and split his helmet in half. He said you gotta
>throw it away and get a new one if you even get a small bump. From the
>looks of it, the blow would have surely cracked his skull open because
>it was split wide. So even after seeing that...I wonder if i should
>spend the money on a helmet. I dont have much to spend and it seems
>uneccesary because I wont be doind the kind of stuff like that which
>gets you into those situations.....but since I also go up to the store
>and back you can never be sure.
>
>How many other people ride without a helmet...and how many people who
>do wear helmets find that its been a lifesaver? Also, have you worn,
>been in a fall and still got hurt where it didnt provide any help?
>
>any input would be appreciated.
>
>
I've run off the road at 40+ mph without a helmet. Road rash and a
sprained shoulder. Rode home, and again in a couple days.
I've slipped on oil at <10 mph with a helmet. Dislocated hip, off bike
for a month.
Hit by a car, with helmet. Injured back, off bike for a month.
Hit parked car and landed next to bike in front of car (no helmet, no
injuries, bent fork). Don't try to fix your derailler while you ride!
In my opinion, a layer of heavily perforated styrofoam offers marginal
protection only. People worry about "splitting your head open", but I
think the greatest danger is neck and spinal injury, which I can't
imagine being mitigated much by the helmet. I wear a helmet because my
wife feels better about my riding if I do so.
John Albergo
Tom Paterson wrote:
>Not wearing a helmet when there is a compulsory-wear ordinance is a pretty good indicator of your
>overall socialization. A "profile", if you will.
>
>
I find statements such as this are much more reliable basis for forming
a "profile". Stay away from my kids.
John Albergo
mrbubl wrote:
>Do you wear a seat belt in the car?
>What is your head worth?
>Are you an organ donor?
>Call any neurologist and ask them what an ER consult costs.
>
A 5-point restraining harness, full hardshell helmet and roll cage are
far more effective lifesavers in car accidents than shoulder belts. How
many motorists have them installed? Far less than .01%? An outrage!
Haven't they called their neurologists?
>
>