Cyclingnews.com tests the 7801-SL wheels and
Qui si parla Campagnolo
find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
learn.
DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
$750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
question).......
landotter
Though I agree with you that proprietary wheels are usually pointless
for the vast majority of cyclists, and that you've made an excellent
point...I can't find the review you're referring to. Link please?
Ozark Bicycle
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Not doubt about it, the handmade wheels you describe are better in
almost every way: durability, serviceability, longevity, etc. And
cheaper to boot!
BUT - they're not "reviewed" in the cycling rags and no one oohs and
ahhs about them at the latte stop. And they're not "NEW!" and they're
not "cool". That's really important to some people.
Lou Holtman
Peter, in the US is someone pointing a gun to the customer's head
forcing them to buy these wheels?
Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu
landotter
My LBS has a tactical hip fired hyperbolic weapon that's just as
effective as using real bullets.
Ozark Bicycle
landotter wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
> > find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
> > learn.
> >
> > DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
> > front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
> > $750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
Was it "Good marketing beats good product, every time"? ;-)
Derk
> BUT - they're not "reviewed" in the cycling rags and no one oohs and
> ahhs about them at the latte stop. And they're not "NEW!" and they're
> not "cool". That's really important to some people.
May I conclude that the hangout place of cyclists in the US is a coffee bar?
You're quite right,though, as is Peter. I got rid of all my flashy wheelsets
and never missed them. I can replace a spoke myself now, which is important
to me.
Derk
Smokey
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
I would choose the handbuilt wheels, too. I've had much better luck
with them than with factory built wheels. But some people have to have
the latest thing....
Smokey
H M Leary
Lou Holtman <lholrem...@planet.nl> wrote:
Of course!
Peter lives in the wild, wild, wild west of eastern Colorado!
I live just outside the wild, wild, wild of West Philly, PA. 404 murders
and counting!
Doesnt evryone pack heat?
HAND
This is a .44 auto mag. Properly used it WILL remove the fingerprints!
- Dirty Harry -
M-gineering
located at the hub flange to reduce rotating mass. "
(for those who don't know the wheels: these are unique in having
spokenipples at both the hub AND rim side ;)
--
---
Marten Gerritsen
INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl
Ozark Bicycle
Well, if yer gonna get picky, Shimano will just take you off their
mailing list. ;-)
Ozark Bicycle
Derk wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > BUT - they're not "reviewed" in the cycling rags and no one oohs and
> > ahhs about them at the latte stop. And they're not "NEW!" and they're
> > not "cool". That's really important to some people.
> May I conclude that the hangout place of cyclists in the US is a coffee bar?
It is with a certain demographic. Personally, I don't get it (and I do
like my coffee). I guess I'd rather ride than chit chat about the
newest bling whilst holding a $5 cup of coffee.
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Average speeds using these wheels are gauranteed to be higher due to
poor braking.
And can someone please explain why the nipple at the hub rotational
mass ploy actually has merit or is just bunk?
Joseph
Paul Kopit
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
>front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
>$750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
I think you meant Velocity Aerohead rims OC (REAR) x 32 holes and
Velocity Aerohead 28 hole FRONT.
I've done rear wheels with 15/16 x 32 h rear and have had no problems
with the wheels. I usually do 32 hole rims with 14/15 DS and 15/16
NDS and again, there's no problem.
AND rbt heresy, I''ve used straight 15 ga spokes instead of butted for
NDS and fronts and see no difference.
Paul Kopit
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>Was it "Good marketing beats good product, every time"? ;-)
The first recollection I have of the term "compliant" wheels was in
Shimano blab. I still am not sure what a compliant wheel is?
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear L.,
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/reviews/shimanoduraace
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Paul Kopit
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>Not doubt about it, the handmade wheels you describe are better in
>almost every way: durability, serviceability, longevity, etc. And
>cheaper to boot!
Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
Try to get people that are doing multiple day tours, over various
surface roads, with SAG for gear that they should have conventionally
spoked wheels.
BobT
"Lou Holtman" <lholrem...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:4593e776$1...@news.nb.nu...
> Peter, in the US is someone pointing a gun to the customer's head forcing
> them to buy these wheels?
Perhaps a good description of current marketing/advertising business in
general in the USA?
Brings to mind the National Lampoon cover imploring to buy the magazine or
we will shoot this dog.
BobT
Derk
> It is with a certain demographic. Personally, I don't get it (and I do
> like my coffee). I guess I'd rather ride than chit chat about the
> newest bling whilst holding a $5 cup of coffee.
coffee importer in Holland and that costs 17,10 Euros/Kilo. Sure I know
that it's more expensive in a bar, but $5 a cup??? No wonder these people
can afford to buy the flashy stuff!
Derk
Ozark Bicycle
Paul Kopit wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2006 07:46:37 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >Not doubt about it, the handmade wheels you describe are better in
> >almost every way: durability, serviceability, longevity, etc. And
> >cheaper to boot!
>
> Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
> that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
Yeah, I know; you get the "But they're NEW TECHNOLOGY!!!, they *must*
be better", and so on.
>
> Try to get people that are doing multiple day tours, over various
> surface roads, with SAG for gear that they should have conventionally
> spoked wheels.
I've had better luck with touring types than with the racer wannabe set.
daveornee
attachment point" work?
I am wondering about the serviceability of what appears to be "captive"
nipples at the rim end. If the nipple breaks, strips, or spoke breaks
off inside: what does one do then?
On another matter: wieghts and weight comparisons are interesting.
What is included (needed to ride) in one scenario Vs another. QR
skewers, rim tape, Tube, tire, etc. I am not supporting this new
Shimano product, but it doesn't need rim tape or tube.
--
daveornee
Ozark Bicycle
Sad but true, it's easy to spend $5 a cup at a place like $tarbucks.
Many Americans feel that a high price implies high quality. So,
$tarbucks inflated prices tend to enhance their image!
> Derk
russell...@yahoo.com
And I've had much better luck with factory built wheels than handbuilt
wheels.
But what really gets me about handbuilt wheels is the price. Velocity
Aerohead rims are $41.25 each at a place called Air Bomb on the
internet. $82.50 rims total. DB DT 14/15 spokes with brass nipples
are $0.50 each at my local shop. Lets assume Rev spokes are $1.00
each. So spoke total is $44 with Rev 28 front and 14/15 32 rear. Dura
Ace hubs: rear $170 and front $111 at Excel Sports. Total for hubs is
$281. Total for all parts for handbuilt wheels is $407.50. Plus
shipping of $30. $437.50 parts and shipping. Given the $650-750
handbuilt price quotes, no 6-7% sales tax added ($39-$52), you are
talking $105 to $155 labor charge per wheel. If the $650-750 price
does not include sales tax, then you are talking about $125 to $180 per
wheel labor.
Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
$1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
bfd
<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167336987.8...@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
finding good handbuilt wheels are easy. Labor rate varies from $45-60 per
wheel; 32 db spokes are usually about $25 per wheel; and the rim can be
anywhere from $25-100 each depending on what you want. Recently, my friend
bought a new wheelset build by Len at the Bike Nook in SF. He got Dura Ace
7700 hubs, DT double butted spokes and Mavic rims (believe its the Open Pro)
for $400 out the door. I think that's a great price for handbuilts that can
be repaired at "any bikeshop USA" if something should happen!@
Lou Holtman
Is that the place where the employees have to ask you 20 question first
before they give you a cup of coffee? Boy, I hate that when I'm over there.
Lou
daveornee
> $2 starting price + shipping, insurance, and handling for red version
> of nearly what is mentioned. Ultegra front, Sapim spokes and nipples,
> Dura Ace 7700 rear. A little heavier than all Dura Ace 7800, but the
> rear hub handles all Shimano HG cassettes. See Ebay items:
> 320066241427 & 320066244158
--
daveornee
landotter
russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
> to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
> PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
> frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
> $1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
My local charges a fair $45+parts for each wheel, as long as it's
nothing exotic. I would just build my own for that kind of money. It's
not hard if you're mechanical and methodical. A hundred bucks gets a
truing stand and dishing tool that'll last a good long while.
Ron Ruff
daveornee wrote:
> I am not supporting this new
> Shimano product, but it doesn't need rim tape or tube.
Who is making tubeless road tires and how does the weight compare to
ones with tubes? Do they require extra material to seal the tire?
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Hutchinson Fusion 2 is available in both tubeless and regular versions
at 295g and 220g respectively for the 23 size.
Joseph
Ben C
If you have two wheels of the same mass, but one of which has more of
the mass distributed near the centre, a given torque will produce a
greater change of angular velocity in that wheel.
So it might make the wheel spin up slightly faster, which I suppose
could help a racer concerned with sprinting.
The brazed-on reinforcements at the rim don't look much lighter than
nipples to me though.
Ozark Bicycle
That's the place! Sometimes, it's hard to tell if you're trying to
order some overpriced coffeee or applying for a security clearance.
russell...@yahoo.com
I guess the local wheel building rates are different where
rec.bicycle.tech people live than in Boulder.
But last spring I bought my Record, Open Pro, 32 hole, 14/15
Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
Lou Holtman
Yeah, once I just answered 'just a cup of coffee; no decaf please' after
every question. She had to consult her supervisor....
Mike Jacoubowsky
> Many Americans feel that a high price implies high quality. So,
> $tarbucks inflated prices tend to enhance their image!
Starbucks also has this ridiculous idea that, unlike other similar
establishments (coffee shops etc), they should be offering healthcare for
their employees. As a small business owner, I know how expensive that is. It
costs us $200-$500 per insured employee per month (the price difference
determined by age). That adds up very quickly, and they're trying to be as
liberal with their healthcare benefits as possible. You can't offer that to
your employees and have the most-reasonably-priced product at the same time.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:1167334404.8...@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Mike Jacoubowsky
> that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
To you, yes. To the buyer, they're not. You said it yourself. The buyer is
looking for "boutique" wheels. They're not simply functional; they're part
of the visual package that someone's looking for. Why do people spend a
whole lot of money on fancier wheels for their cars? They could get more
performance benefit spending less money elsewhere.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Paul Kopit" <pko...@att.net> wrote in message
news:qq28p25e52588eceg...@4ax.com...
Gary Young
In fairness to the LBS, it's probably not getting the parts at the same
wholesale price as the MO places and may have higher operating costs that
are reflected in the price of the components. It's a bit disingenuous to
chalk up the entire difference to labor.
Gary Young
I think people are exaggerating just a little. You can get the largest
size of regular coffee (aka "American coffee") for a little over $2.
That's in Manhattan, so I doubt it's more in other parts of the country.
Yes, you can get it for less at Dunkin' Donuts, but Dunkin' Donuts doesn't
have big stuffed chairs where you can read the newspaper for as long as
you want without anyone trying to move you along. To get up to $5, you
have to order the extras.
I have reservations about Starbucks, but they have more to do with its
politics than its prices.
Ozark Bicycle
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Sad but true, it's easy to spend $5 a cup at a place like $tarbucks.
> > Many Americans feel that a high price implies high quality. So,
> > $tarbucks inflated prices tend to enhance their image!
>
>
> Starbucks also has this ridiculous idea that, unlike other similar
> establishments (coffee shops etc), they should be offering healthcare for
> their employees.
That's a nice piece of the $tarbucks corporate BS, Mike. A close
friend's daughter tried a "career path" there. Seems that they try to
use alot of employee turnover amd 'part time only' to avoid paying
benefits (And, no, aforementioned friend's daughter was not a victim of
this, per se. She was in management and tired of constantly "training"
newbies.) In the future, $tarbucks plans to shift more and more biz to
the drive through to reduce staff levels. Think the price of their
overpriced coffee will go down? Don't hold yer breath!
> As a small business owner, I know how expensive that is. It
> costs us $200-$500 per insured employee per month (the price difference
> determined by age). That adds up very quickly, and they're trying to be as
> liberal with their healthcare benefits as possible. You can't offer that to
> your employees and have the most-reasonably-priced product at the same time.
I think the high price is part of their market strategy. YMMV.
BTW, try a blind taste test of $tarbucks v. other coffees. IME, it
ain't stellar.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
landotter wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
> > find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
> > learn.
> >
> > DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
> > front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
> > $750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
> >
> > But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
> > tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
> > question).......
>
> for the vast majority of cyclists, and that you've made an excellent
> point...I can't find the review you're referring to. Link please?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/reviews/shimanoduraace
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Paul Kopit wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2006 07:46:37 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >Not doubt about it, the handmade wheels you describe are better in
> >almost every way: durability, serviceability, longevity, etc. And
> >cheaper to boot!
>
> Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
> that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
We do often. We have sold 3 prebuilt wheels...and about 2500
handbuilts.
>
> Try to get people that are doing multiple day tours, over various
> surface roads, with SAG for gear that they should have conventionally
> spoked wheels.
See above. Tell the truth, have a good rep and those people that have
had bad experiences with wheelsinnabox, and they will come round.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
> > that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
>
> To you, yes. To the buyer, they're not. You said it yourself. The buyer is
> looking for "boutique" wheels. They're not simply functional; they're part
> of the visual package that someone's looking for. Why do people spend a
> whole lot of money on fancier wheels for their cars? They could get more
> performance benefit spending less money elsewhere.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
BIG difference Mike is that simple steel wheels on a car do the same
thing fancy wheels do. On a bike, the vast majority of 'boutique'
wheels are allabout flash, whizbangery and little on reliability,
weight savings. All flash, all smoke, no fire. Here's where youcan say
you paired spoke Bontragers are so good.....
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Lou Holtman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
> > find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
> > learn.
> >
> > DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
> > front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
> > $750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
> >
> > But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
> > tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
> > question).......
> >
>
>
> forcing them to buy these wheels?
>
Not sure of your point. I'm just pointing out the silliness of these.
Nobody has a gun to their head to believe me either.
There is so many stupid things in bicyclesand I say it makes less
people ride, not more. Promises that can't be kept, etc...makes things
expensive, complicated when they don't need to be..If ya like these
wheels, by all means go get yerself a pair-
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Funny math. $335 for a DA hubset, If excel wants to make their $ via
volume, good for them,. We use a 35% margin on everything. $60/$65n for
the rims, they cost me more than you quoted..$50 per wheel to
build..$607.56 + 8.51%
>
> Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
> to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
> PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
> frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
> $1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
where did you go to school??
Qui si parla Campagnolo
aluminum rims and DA hubs...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Hey Russell, I thought you didn't have goodluck with anything but
'factory' built wheels. Performance 'factory??'...we all know you are
'the mailorder cowboy...
Qui si parla Campagnolo
YA THINK!! copy to Russell...
Actually MO doesn't pay a lot more for parts than any LBS. They just
charge less, rely on volume to get them over that admittedly smaller
monthy 'nut' to be able to stay in biz..But I'll be willing to bet that
Excel pays about the $ame $ we do for 4 times the floorspace..it iS a
warehouse 'way over there'.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Paul Kopit wrote:
> On 28 Dec 2006 06:10:30 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> >DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
> >front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
> >$750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
>
> Velocity Aerohead 28 hole FRONT.
yep, that's what I meant.
>
> I've done rear wheels with 15/16 x 32 h rear and have had no problems
> with the wheels. I usually do 32 hole rims with 14/15 DS and 15/16
> NDS and again, there's no problem.
I just did a Mavic MachllCD(mine), 36h, with 14/15 right and Revs left
and I can tell a HUGE difference in wheel stiffness. Really can when
compared to another, 14/15 both side. 15/16 would be fine but have 60
boxes of spokes, I'm not going to pony up for lots of 15/16 when 14/15
do just fine, cost nuthin when compared to 15/16..15/16 add nothing to
the wheel.
>
> AND rbt heresy, I''ve used straight 15 ga spokes instead of butted for
> NDS and fronts and see no difference.
Ozark Bicycle
Extras. IIRC, the most expensive choice is a really big 'Latte'. Now,
what is a 'Latte"? Why, it's espresso (IOW,concentrated coffee),
diluted with 'steamed milk'. IOW, watered down concentrated coffee.
Less for more.....looks good on the balance sheet.
Barnum rules!
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Only one tire and wheel right now. THIS wheel and the Hutcheson(sp?)
tubeless. Lots more marketing BS about comfort, rolling resistence,
durability, but it is another answer to a nonquestion.
if ya want all the things the tubeless claim(except RR), get a set of
tubulars..
Mike Jacoubowsky
> friend's daughter tried a "career path" there. Seems that they try to
> use alot of employee turnover amd 'part time only' to avoid paying
> benefits (And, no, aforementioned friend's daughter was not a victim of
> this, per se. She was in management and tired of constantly "training"
> newbies.) In the future, $tarbucks plans to shift more and more biz to
> the drive through to reduce staff levels. Think the price of their
> overpriced coffee will go down? Don't hold yer breath!
Locally, we see a core group of Starbucks employees who have hung with them
for quite some time, and another set that comes & goes. They pay pretty
decently for part-time work, but I can see it as a job that some people just
can't handle for very long. Could be that they engineer things to account
for high employee turnover as a way of life, rather than something they
intentionally encourage. They actually claim much lower turnover than most,
retaining 65% of their workforce each year. That's a figure I find
surprisingly high.
But no, I don't expect to see their pricing go down with drive-through
windows etc. By the way, the drive-through thing doesn't just reduce staff
levels (in fact, I'd be surprised if it had a huge effect on that, since you
still have to have someone taking an order and filling it, just like in the
store). But it definitely cuts down on the required real estate, which is
very expensive in the locations favorable to them. BIG savings there.
> BTW, try a blind taste test of $tarbucks v. other coffees. IME, it
> ain't stellar.
Agree with you 200% on that one!!! Starbucks is convenient & predictable.
I'll always prefer Peets, but there aren't as many of them and dang, some of
them are so incredibly slow you just about fall asleep waiting.
I much prefer making coffee myself, but my wife is so used to Starbucks that
that's what she thinks coffee is supposed to taste like. Actually, somebody
did a blind coffee taste thing last year. One of the networks. They had
people try something like 15 different coffees, including some that were
very highly regarded amongst coffee afficianados. Invariably, people picked
as the "best" coffee the coffee that they're used to. Starbucks has made a
lot of people used to slightly-burnt adequate coffee. Anything else isn't
quite right.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:1167346010.3...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
bfd
<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1167343959.0...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
with discount can be found as low as $210 (my friend with the Campy Neutrons
got a "backup" pair at that price), its impossible for a LBS to compete.
Still, even at $400 for a handbuilt wheelset, its some times 1/2 or more
than what some of these boutique wheelsets sell for.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
295 for tubeless?? 220 with a tube and rim strip..tubeless looses the
weight war!!!
Jay Beattie
This is true even in PDX where there are a gazillion espresso shops --
people still flock to the Starbucks even though the mom and pop shop
down the street makes better espresso. By the way, you CAN pay $5 a cup
at Stumptown Coffee, which sells the single-malt equivalents of coffee
(French pressed coffee from Peruvian midget beans picked from south
facing slopes at high noon by left handed Croations, etc., etc.). Tres
chic, but you have to put up with a lot of Bohemian attitude. Try their
Hair Bender blend if you ever get a chance. It makes great espresso.
-- Jay Beattie.
Ron Ruff
russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> But last spring I bought my Record, Open Pro, 32 hole, 14/15
> Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
> about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
> off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
> paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
> wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
I don't think anybody paying regular wholesale for parts could compete
with that. Performance must be getting a big volume discount. The hubs
alone go for more than that most places! ...get the rims, spokes, and
build for free.
Ozark Bicycle
Ron Ruff wrote:
> russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > But last spring I bought my Record, Open Pro, 32 hole, 14/15
> > Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
> > about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
> > off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
> > paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
> > wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
>
> I don't think anybody paying regular wholesale for parts could compete
> with that. Performance must be getting a big volume discount.
Sure. They are getting OEM pricing.
>The hubs
> alone go for more than that most places! ...get the rims, spokes, and
> build for free.
The hubs, sold as such, are subject to the Shimano retail price fixing
scheme (aka, "Authorized Shimano Internet Retailer"), as a part of a
built wheel, they are not.
Ozark Bicycle
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > That's a nice piece of the $tarbucks corporate BS, Mike. A close
> > friend's daughter tried a "career path" there. Seems that they try to
> > use alot of employee turnover amd 'part time only' to avoid paying
> > benefits (And, no, aforementioned friend's daughter was not a victim of
> > this, per se. She was in management and tired of constantly "training"
> > newbies.) In the future, $tarbucks plans to shift more and more biz to
> > the drive through to reduce staff levels. Think the price of their
> > overpriced coffee will go down? Don't hold yer breath!
>
> Locally, we see a core group of Starbucks employees who have hung with them
> for quite some time, and another set that comes & goes. They pay pretty
> decently for part-time work,
>From what I've been told, store managers are encouraged to staff with
part timers. Of course, part time = no benefits.
> but I can see it as a job that some people just
> can't handle for very long. Could be that they engineer things to account
> for high employee turnover as a way of life, rather than something they
> intentionally encourage.
Again from what I've been told, turnover doesn't seem to be a concern.
And, again, this makes the health care benefits (etc.) that $tarbucks
trumpets a moot point.
> They actually claim much lower turnover than most,
> retaining 65% of their workforce each year. That's a figure I find
> surprisingly high.
There's no lie like the Big Lie!
>
> But no, I don't expect to see their pricing go down with drive-through
> windows etc. By the way, the drive-through thing doesn't just reduce staff
> levels (in fact, I'd be surprised if it had a huge effect on that, since you
> still have to have someone taking an order and filling it, just like in the
> store).
But, less staff for clean up, shelf stocking, etc. And less in the way
of waste disposal costs, etc. It adds up.
> But it definitely cuts down on the required real estate, which is
> very expensive in the locations favorable to them. BIG savings there.
Yes. The new $tarbucks locations around here are built on very small
footprints. And the drive throughs are quite busy.
>
> > BTW, try a blind taste test of $tarbucks v. other coffees. IME, it
> > ain't stellar.
>
> Agree with you 200% on that one!!! Starbucks is convenient & predictable.
> I'll always prefer Peets, but there aren't as many of them and dang, some of
> them are so incredibly slow you just about fall asleep waiting.
>
> I much prefer making coffee myself, but my wife is so used to Starbucks that
> that's what she thinks coffee is supposed to taste like. Actually, somebody
> did a blind coffee taste thing last year. One of the networks. They had
> people try something like 15 different coffees, including some that were
> very highly regarded amongst coffee afficianados. Invariably, people picked
> as the "best" coffee the coffee that they're used to. Starbucks has made a
> lot of people used to slightly-burnt adequate coffee. Anything else isn't
> quite right.
Mediocrity without the stigma of a low price....the new American
paradigm.
>
Ozark Bicycle
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
> > that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
>
> To you, yes. To the buyer, they're not. You said it yourself. The buyer is
> looking for "boutique" wheels. They're not simply functional;
But often simply unfunctional. ;-)
> they're part
> of the visual package that someone's looking for. Why do people spend a
> whole lot of money on fancier wheels for their cars?
There's some history here: once upon a time wire wheels and, later,
cast wheels, were a way to reduce unsprung weight (and improve brake
cooling) in a auto chassis v. the stock steel wheels. This could
improve the handling. So, that performance legacy lives on in todays
marketplace.
> They could get more
> performance benefit spending less money elsewhere.
>
Perhaps. But, unlike "boutique" bicycle wheels, fancy-schmancy
automobile wheels generally do not decrease reliability. (Cast wheels
on SUVs used off road are an obvious exception)
G.T.
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>> Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
>> find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
>> learn.
>>
>> front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
>> $750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
>>
>> tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
>> question).......
>>
>
>
> forcing them to buy these wheels?
>
No, but it would be nice to get some equal time in the press for quality
hand-built wheels instead of the press constantly feeding the marketing
machines.
Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
bfd
>
> Ron Ruff wrote:
>> russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > But last spring I bought my Record, Open Pro, 32 hole, 14/15
>> > Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
>> > about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
>> > off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
>> > paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
>> > wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
>>
>> I don't think anybody paying regular wholesale for parts could compete
>> with that. Performance must be getting a big volume discount.
>
> Sure. They are getting OEM pricing.
>
bikes, i.e., nashbar, scattante, douglas, and macalu brands, so in essence
they're considered "manufacturers" and can get items way below the wholesale
prices that shops can buy at. They get parts in bags that are suppose to go
on their house brand bikes. However, when they have leftovers, they sell
them through their mail order catalog.
Mike Jacoubowsky
> thing fancy wheels do. On a bike, the vast majority of 'boutique'
> wheels are allabout flash, whizbangery and little on reliability,
> weight savings. All flash, all smoke, no fire. Here's where youcan say
> you paired spoke Bontragers are so good.....
They work, and they have a company that stands very solidly behind them.
Life could be worse. Do I wish I had the time to build a ton of custom
wheels? Or, for that matter, wheels for anybody other than myself or a few
friends? Absolutely. I really enjoy building (and for that matter, working
on) wheels. But I couldn't even fit a pair of Bontrager wheels onto the rear
of my old Cinelli (120mm), nor would it seem right for my track bike.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in message
news:1167346616.4...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
A Muzi
> But what really gets me about handbuilt wheels is the price. Velocity
> Aerohead rims are $41.25 each at a place called Air Bomb on the
> internet. $82.50 rims total. DB DT 14/15 spokes with brass nipples
> are $0.50 each at my local shop. Lets assume Rev spokes are $1.00
> each. So spoke total is $44 with Rev 28 front and 14/15 32 rear. Dura
> Ace hubs: rear $170 and front $111 at Excel Sports. Total for hubs is
> $281. Total for all parts for handbuilt wheels is $407.50. Plus
> shipping of $30. $437.50 parts and shipping. Given the $650-750
> handbuilt price quotes, no 6-7% sales tax added ($39-$52), you are
> talking $105 to $155 labor charge per wheel. If the $650-750 price
> does not include sales tax, then you are talking about $125 to $180 per
> wheel labor.
>
> to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
> PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
> frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
> $1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
We, like most pro shops, charge $25 per wheel with an itemized invoice
not a mystery lump sum.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
A Muzi
> daveornee wrote:
>> I am not supporting this new
>> Shimano product, but it doesn't need rim tape or tube.
>
> Who is making tubeless road tires and how does the weight compare to
> ones with tubes? Do they require extra material to seal the tire?
>
A Muzi
> news:qq28p25e52588eceg...@4ax.com...
>> On 28 Dec 2006 07:46:37 -0800, "Ozark Bicycle"
>> <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> Not doubt about it, the handmade wheels you describe are better in
>>> almost every way: durability, serviceability, longevity, etc. And
>>> cheaper to boot!
>> Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
>> that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
>> Try to get people that are doing multiple day tours, over various
>> surface roads, with SAG for gear that they should have conventionally
>> spoked wheels.
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Try to tell a new buyer or buyer in the market for boutique wheels
>> that old fashioned wheels are actually better.
> To you, yes. To the buyer, they're not. You said it yourself. The buyer is
> looking for "boutique" wheels. They're not simply functional; they're part
> of the visual package that someone's looking for. Why do people spend a
> whole lot of money on fancier wheels for their cars? They could get more
> performance benefit spending less money elsewhere.
I'm with Mike.
After explaining weight, price, performance and longevity disadvantages,
the customer who buys them usually admits it's the visual effect. . .
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
No rim strip needed. So it wins by a whopping 5 grams. Unless of course
you decide to use the valve stem cap...
Joseph
Lou Holtman
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>
>>>Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
>>>find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
>>>learn.
>>>
>>>DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
>>>front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
>>>$750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
>>>
>>>But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
>>>tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
>>>question).......
>>>
>>
>>
>>Peter, in the US is someone pointing a gun to the customer's head
>>forcing them to buy these wheels?
>>
>>Lou
>>--
>>Posted by news://news.nb.nu
>
>
> Not sure of your point. I'm just pointing out the silliness of these.
> Nobody has a gun to their head to believe me either.
My point is if the customer is fully aware off the consequences of his
choice, explained by the LBS, and he accepts them (he has money to spare
or has several back up wheels) it's as silly as calling a customer
buying a Tiso RD a dumb customer. Even if he is just buying them for the
looks.
It's your opinion fair enough and you may explain it to him or her, but
still it is just an opinion.
> There is so many stupid things in bicyclesand I say it makes less
> people ride, not more. Promises that can't be kept, etc...makes things
> expensive, complicated when they don't need to be..If ya like these
> wheels, by all means go get yerself a pair-
No thanks I'm a Campy man. They make good wheels too ;-)
richard
Let's see... there's another company whose hubs are not only
cup-and-cone BUT feature a cute little set screw and a large adjusting
ring so they can be fine tuned right on the bike! (Got 3 pair of those!)
damyth
Dude, you've apparently never ordered from Nashbar and Performance
then. While it may be true that they get OEM pricing, it's certainly
not true that they get the brand name stuff in "bags."
Every brand name (i.e. non-house brand) component I've ever bought from
Nashbar/Performance came in the manufacturer's packaging. In
particular, Shimano components came in bona fide Shimano packaging
(boxes).
There are plenty of other mail order places that ship Shimano
components in "bags," clearly gray market, but Nashbar and Performance
are not those types of operations, ttbmk.
I've even ordered (small replacement parts) from QBP that ostensibly
were labeled as Shimano in the catalog, but clearly were not Shimano
parts when paired alongside the "real McCoy."
It's about time bike shops and distributors stop the FUD against mail
order.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > BIG difference Mike is that simple steel wheels on a car do the same
> > thing fancy wheels do. On a bike, the vast majority of 'boutique'
> > wheels are allabout flash, whizbangery and little on reliability,
> > weight savings. All flash, all smoke, no fire. Here's where youcan say
> > you paired spoke Bontragers are so good.....
>
> They work, and they have a company that stands very solidly behind them.
> Life could be worse. Do I wish I had the time to build a ton of custom
> wheels? Or, for that matter, wheels for anybody other than myself or a few
> friends? Absolutely. I really enjoy building (and for that matter, working
> on) wheels. But I couldn't even fit a pair of Bontrager wheels onto the rear
> of my old Cinelli (120mm), nor would it seem right for my track bike.
C'mon Mike, you have the keys to the front door. You could have a
custom wheelbuilding program if you wanted to...but the Trek rep would
report you...
Ozark Bicycle
You mean like the "no warranty" scare tactic?
Jasper Janssen
<bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>Yeah, I know; you get the "But they're NEW TECHNOLOGY!!!, they *must*
>be better", and so on.
Better at marketing.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
>find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
>learn.
>
>DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
>front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
>$750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
>
>But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
>tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
>question).......
Every time you advocate real wheels, god kills a kitten.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
>But what really gets me about handbuilt wheels is the price. Velocity
>Aerohead rims are $41.25 each at a place called Air Bomb on the
>internet. $82.50 rims total. DB DT 14/15 spokes with brass nipples
>are $0.50 each at my local shop. Lets assume Rev spokes are $1.00
>each. So spoke total is $44 with Rev 28 front and 14/15 32 rear. Dura
>Ace hubs: rear $170 and front $111 at Excel Sports. Total for hubs is
>$281. Total for all parts for handbuilt wheels is $407.50. Plus
>shipping of $30. $437.50 parts and shipping. Given the $650-750
>handbuilt price quotes, no 6-7% sales tax added ($39-$52), you are
>talking $105 to $155 labor charge per wheel. If the $650-750 price
>does not include sales tax, then you are talking about $125 to $180 per
>wheel labor.
>
>Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
>to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
>PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
>frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
>$1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
My LBS asks about 20-30 euros for building a wheel, and they're pretty
competent (although sometimes the spoke tension isn't really high enough).
If I buy my parts at Rose Versand, Europe's largest mail order supplier,
they will turn them into wheels at 13E per. Let's look at the catalog:
DA 7800 hubs: 85+136
DT Revs per 20: 7,20 (2 packs)
DT Comps per 20 silver: 4,40 (2 packs) (Note that you'll have a couple of
spokes left over as spares, even)
Well, I can't find Velocity rims in the catalogue, and the webstore has
suffered a case of Microsoftitis[1] today so no verification there either,
but let's assume they did carry them, they'd probably be around 40-50E.
I make it a total of 85+136+2*7.20+2*4.40+90+2*13=360.20 euros.
The problem of course is that they really will only build with stuff you
buy from them, they're not a bike shop where you effectively simply hire
labour and can bring in parts.
Jasper
[1] The back end SQL server has vanished, and .Net Server doesn't like it.
Diablo Scott
> C'mon Mike, you have the keys to the front door. You could have a
> custom wheelbuilding program if you wanted to...but the Trek rep would
> report you...
Is this true? Trek pressures its LBS partners to NOT provide custom
conventional wheels? That's much more damning than just claiming
specious benefits for their boutique wheels.
russell...@yahoo.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > landotter wrote:
> > > russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
> > > > to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
> > > > PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
> > > > frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
> > > > $1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
> > >
> > > nothing exotic. I would just build my own for that kind of money. It's
> > > not hard if you're mechanical and methodical. A hundred bucks gets a
> > > truing stand and dishing tool that'll last a good long while.
> >
> > I guess the local wheel building rates are different where
> > rec.bicycle.tech people live than in Boulder.
> >
> > Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
> > about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
> > off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
> > paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
> > wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
>
> 'factory' built wheels. Performance 'factory??'...we all know you are
> 'the mailorder cowboy...
I have had better luck with my Campagnolo Vento wheels than my Record
or Chorus Open Pro or Reflex wheels. The Record Open Pro wheels were
from Performance. I am pretty sure they had the Wheelsmith factory
build them. Chorus Open Pro were built originally by whomever Gary
Hobbs had building his wheels when he lived in California. Record
Reflex tubulars are from Excel. Vento are also from Excel. And I
recently picked up some Shamal clinchers from Nashbar. They are sharp
looking. Sometime over the winter, if the weather turns bad, I'll get
them on one of the bikes.
I separate factory built wheels into two categories. Those built by
machine, and hand?, from off the shelf components such as the
Performance/Excel/Colorado Cyclist Record Open Pro wheels. And those
built at the manufacturer's factory using proprietary components such
as my Vento and Shamal wheels. The handbuilt moniker I reserve for
those wheels built using off the shelf components by one person you
meet, know, talk to.
I prefer not over paying for items. Most people in the US follow this
rule too. How many small grocery stores in small towns closed when
roadds and cars became better and people drove to the big city for
cheaper groceries and greater variety. How many corner pharmacies in
little towns went out of business when the bigger, cheaper pharmacy
opened in the big town nearby. How many Ace True Value hardware stores
closed up when Home Depot, Lowes, Menards were within driving distance.
Peter, how many of the examples in this paragraph apply to you and
your family and friends? Mail order, internet is just another example.
I missed visiting your shop when I was in Louisville in mid September
for the Last Chance 1200k. Ran out of time before the ride. I did
meet Chris Grealish on the ride. He had an oval Vecchios sticker on
the toptube of his Campagnolo equipped Moots. I didn't ask him, but I
figured he was a customer of yours. He was using your party line of
Moots and Campagnolo. Whic is a good party line. I forget which type
of wheels he was using.
carl...@comcast.net
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Sad but true, it's easy to spend $5 a cup at a place like $tarbucks.
> > Many Americans feel that a high price implies high quality. So,
> > $tarbucks inflated prices tend to enhance their image!
>
>
> Starbucks also has this ridiculous idea that, unlike other similar
> establishments (coffee shops etc), they should be offering healthcare for
> costs us $200-$500 per insured employee per month (the price difference
> determined by age). That adds up very quickly, and they're trying to be as
> liberal with their healthcare benefits as possible. You can't offer that to
> your employees and have the most-reasonably-priced product at the same time.
>
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Dear Mike,
See the first chapter of "The Undercover Economist," where Tim Harford
explains in detail how David Ricardo explained the cost of coffee at
Starbucks in 1817 in "On The Principles of Political Economy and
Taxation."
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
G.T.
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gee, a smidge over 1600 grams, uses unique to this wheel parts(try to
>>>> find a 7700 wheelset spoke) and ONLY $979...yikes, when will people
>>>> learn.
>>>>
>>>> DT or DA 7800 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims(OC front), 28f, 32r, Revs
>>>> front, 14/15 rear, BRASS nipps and 1550 grams and range from $650 tp
>>>> $750. BUT what did PT Barnum say???
>>>>
>>>> But it does have scamdium and it does have wheelbags and it can use a
>>>> tubeless tire(great news!!, another answer to a not asked
>>>> question).......
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter, in the US is someone pointing a gun to the customer's head
>>> forcing them to buy these wheels?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>> --
>>> Posted by news://news.nb.nu
>>
>>
>> Not sure of your point. I'm just pointing out the silliness of these.
>> Nobody has a gun to their head to believe me either.
>
> My point is if the customer is fully aware off the consequences of his
> choice,
They're not.
> explained by the LBS,
I think the only LBS' that explain this stuff have people posting here.
Lou Holtman
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>>
>>> Not sure of your point. I'm just pointing out the silliness of these.
>>> Nobody has a gun to their head to believe me either.
>>
>>
>> My point is if the customer is fully aware off the consequences of his
>> choice,
>
>
> They're not.
That's too easy and an insult to those who do. How do you know? I don't
believe that those wheels are bad wheels; probably better than poorly
handbuild wheels. Yes, they are expensive, but what the hell. Peter's
Moots is expensive too, but sure is pretty.
If my friends ask me about some boutique wheels I asked 'are they the
only wheels you got'. Yes?; bad idea. You have backup? Go ahead if you
like them, but don't expect you go faster and put them on a scale first ;-)
>
>> explained by the LBS,
>
>
> I think the only LBS' that explain this stuff have people posting here.
Not true either; at least in this part of the world.
russell...@yahoo.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > landotter wrote:
> > > russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Answer me this: if you went into your local bike shop and asked them
> > > > to build you a set of wheels and they told you it would be $125 to $180
> > > > PER WHEEL labor charge, would you buy them? Or if you bought a nice
> > > > frame and nice build kit from a shop and they told you it would be
> > > > $1,500 to build the bike up, would you buy it?
> > >
> > > My local charges a fair $45+parts for each wheel, as long as it's
> > > nothing exotic. I would just build my own for that kind of money. It's
> > > not hard if you're mechanical and methodical. A hundred bucks gets a
> > > truing stand and dishing tool that'll last a good long while.
> >
> > I guess the local wheel building rates are different where
> > rec.bicycle.tech people live than in Boulder.
> >
> > But last spring I bought my Record, Open Pro, 32 hole, 14/15
> > Wheelsmith, brass, 3 cross wheelset from Performance delivered for
> > about $250. Could have gotten them $30 cheaper if I had caught a 20%
> > off coupon instead of just the 10% off. Not sure I could justify
> > paying $400 or so out the door to a local shop for the exact same
> > wheelset. Even if mine are machine built with off the rack parts.
>
> Hey Russell, I thought you didn't have goodluck with anything but
> 'factory' built wheels. Performance 'factory??'...we all know you are
> 'the mailorder cowboy...
Forgot something. I like mail order. Its usually quicker and easier
than going some place in person. And almost always better selection.
You don't get that instant gratification from buying locally. But the
price usually compensates for that. And rarely do I need many things
immediately. I can plan ahead far enough to wait.
For bicycle parts and bikes I've mail ordered from Performance,
Nashbar, Excel Sports, Colorado Cyclist, Lickton, Harris Cyclery,
Vecchios, GottaRideBikes, Ribble and Settle in England, GVH Bikes,
Branford, Cambria, and a few others I've forgotten. To me everyone of
the above listed shops is the same. They are all mail order places. I
have bought locally at Colorado Cyclist when going through Colorado
Springs. All of the other places were mail order. And everyone of the
above listed places has a local shop.
Why are big mail order places with great prices, that have local shops
for people living locally, bad; but small mail order shops with full
MSRP prices, that have local shops for people living locally, good. If
a bike shop such as Vecchios, Yellow Jersey, Harris, Lickton, chooses
to compete with Perfromance, Nashbar, Excel, CC by offering mail order
sales, then it has to be willing to compete on all terms. Price
included. You can't say you are willing to compete on better service
but charge considerably more in price. I guess you can compete that
way, just maybe not too well. And I've always had good service from
the big mail order places. I'm glad all of the shops listed offer mail
order. My local shops are not very good on many things.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
notmuch for labor and you get what you pay for. 50 Euros is about
$70..but no rims so...
Mailorder does not = local bike shop.The standard is brick and mortar
bike shop, in spite of the fact that lots on this NG reference MO as if
that's the 'way it is'.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
None-you are assuming MO is some kind of answer, that MO and the
internet is going to somehow make brick and mortar go away. Just the
opposite is happening, particularly with part pricing(shimano BIG
example). What is overpaying? Define the standard? Do you overpay if
somebody sells under margin and relies on volume to make up the
difference? Is the lowest price the price it ought to be and everything
higher is overcharging??Poppycock. You don't understand retail in
general and bicycle retail specifically if you think this.
>
> I missed visiting your shop when I was in Louisville in mid September
> for the Last Chance 1200k. Ran out of time before the ride. I did
> meet Chris Grealish on the ride. He had an oval Vecchios sticker on
> the toptube of his Campagnolo equipped Moots. I didn't ask him, but I
> figured he was a customer of yours. He was using your party line of
> Moots and Campagnolo. Whic is a good party line. I forget which type
> of wheels he was using.
I have been building wheels for Grealish for over a decade. He uses
crappy box wheels when he gets them at closeout, we service them, we
buuild him wgheels that he relies on.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Bullshit...we do not suffer with Excel, Performance and Colorado
Cyclist 100 miles away. We don't because MO sells 95% of their stuff
over the phone. They rely on volume to make up the difference in
margin. They do not sell service. People that want good service are
willing to pay a fair price for the parts, and they DO!! They do not
get good service from the two MO places here in Boulder.
Since LBS whine about MO prices, you assume we are somehow hurting, not
so. Check out the prices in Excel, not the closeout crap, but everyday
prices...I'll give you some examples-I have the catalog right here.
FSA Gossamer crank/BB-Excel-$179.95, $185 Vecchios
shimano R700 compact crank-excel-$266.95, $260 Vecchios
Sram PC-951-Excel-$19.95, Vecchio's-$21.99
Conti Ultra race folding-Excel-$34.95, Vecchio's-$37.99
Ritchey WCS caqlssic hbar-same price
Fizik saddles, same price
White Eno rear hub-Excel-$159.95, Vecchio's-$149.99
so, considerably higher just doesn't apply. closeout prices,
discontinued things are no more the standard than what you mention.
OBTW-they charge no labor generally for wheelbuilds and you get what
you pay for.
Derk
> I think people are exaggerating just a little. You can get the largest
> size of regular coffee (aka "American coffee") for a little over $2.
I don't want to offend anyone, but I always hear horror stories
about "regular american coffee". Here it's referred to as "canal
water....".
Derk
Ryan Cousineau
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
[Russell & Peter's dialogue snipped. Summary: Russell thinks B&M is
expensive]
> Bullshit...we do not suffer with Excel, Performance and Colorado
> Cyclist 100 miles away. We don't because MO sells 95% of their stuff
> over the phone. They rely on volume to make up the difference in
> margin. They do not sell service. People that want good service are
> willing to pay a fair price for the parts, and they DO!! They do not
> get good service from the two MO places here in Boulder.
> Since LBS whine about MO prices, you assume we are somehow hurting, not
> so. Check out the prices in Excel, not the closeout crap, but everyday
> prices...I'll give you some examples-I have the catalog right here.
> FSA Gossamer crank/BB-Excel-$179.95, $185 Vecchios
> shimano R700 compact crank-excel-$266.95, $260 Vecchios
> Sram PC-951-Excel-$19.95, Vecchio's-$21.99
> Conti Ultra race folding-Excel-$34.95, Vecchio's-$37.99
> Ritchey WCS caqlssic hbar-same price
> Fizik saddles, same price
> White Eno rear hub-Excel-$159.95, Vecchio's-$149.99
>
> so, considerably higher just doesn't apply. closeout prices,
> discontinued things are no more the standard than what you mention.
> OBTW-they charge no labor generally for wheelbuilds and you get what
> you pay for.
Just as an amusing data point: in Canada, Boxing Day sales are where
it's at for clearance and stupid deals. A local consignment-oriented
sporting goods shop (Sports Junkies) with a strong bike aspect always
does a ludicrously fun Boxing Day sale. Aside from a set of perfectly
nice Adidas MTB shoes for C$10, I also got a Truvativ Rouleur Carbon GXP
compact crankset (external-bearing BB included) for C$120.
I don't think I'll ever beat that deal at mail order.
BTW, the Rouleur Carbons are the most over-the-top stylin' cranks ever:
elaborately shaped carbon arms with a mirror-polished aluminum spider
and chainrings. In a classic case of cognitive dissonance, I'm going to
put them on an early-80s steel Bianchi that I use as a 'cross bike. The
frame has numerous surface rust spots.
http://www.fullcycles.com/product_info.php/products_id/366
Trick Question: I bought the English BB version. How am I going to
install it on the Bianchi?
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
Qui si parla Campagnolo
That's funny...'FUD'? All MO could go away tomorrow and
distributors/manufacturers wouldn't even burp. All B&M bike shops go
away..so do most of the manufacturers and distributors.
Lou Holtman
and they even dare to ask 'caf or decaf?' Is there any caffeine in caf?
You get a 15 cm high bucket and you can still see the bottom... ;-)
damyth
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
And your point is?
Microsoft has big presence and enormous market share, but have they
stopped spewing FUD about Linux or open source?
It's all about value. I don't patronize WalMart, since most of what
they sell is crappy or flimsy. But I patronize Costco. Does that make
me anti-mom and pop?
In my case, there is nothing (aside from new bikes) that the LBS offers
that I can't do or get myself, cheaper, faster, and most of the time
with better quality. I've even stopped going to the LBS for things
like frame prep, one of the few remaining value-add the LBS offered,
since I have (or know people) the tools now.
I realize that's not true for everyone, but it becoming reality for a
larger percentage of people. I'd never have imagined Tower Records to
have been liquidated, but it has. There is such a thing as obsolete
business model.
A Muzi
> it's as silly as calling a customer
> buying a Tiso RD a dumb customer.
What does "tiso" mean?
Mike Jacoubowsky
Peter's joking. He, of all people, knows how little time you often have,
when you own a business, to do the things you really enjoy. Beyond that,
there's a *lot* of respect back at Trek for what a skilled wheelbuilder can
do.
Machines can build more-than-adequate wheels, and do a better job than the
majority of "professional" wheels builders out there, many of whom just
don't really have a feel for it and build "custom" wheels that have problems
in the real world. But the test-lab people know the full story, and can tell
you how there are a couple of employees (at Trek) who consistently build
stronger wheels than others, including some who have been doing it far
longer. Some people have a feel for it, and some don't. You look at someone
like Peter, who flew jet fighters, and have to figure if he didn't have a
feel for how to get the best out of something mechanical, he might not be
around to tell the story.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Diablo Scott" <diablosc...@terra.es> wrote in message
news:4595341d$0$17857$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
russell...@yahoo.com
> In article <1167420477....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> [Russell & Peter's dialogue snipped. Summary: Russell thinks B&M is
> expensive]
B&M - Brick and Mortar. Took awhile to figure out what you were
talking about there. In general yes most local shops for run of the
mill regular items are more expensive than mail order. Everything is
pretty much full MSRP at local shops. Its very easy to find about
everything less than full MSRP on the internet or mail order.
Sometimes considerably less. And sales on most items are far more
frequent on internet and mail order places. And the selection is
almost always better with mail order or internet. Yes I know most
shops have a QBP account and can get about anything ordered in. But at
MSRP and you usually wait longer for a QBP order to arrive than
ordering from an internet or mail order place.
You can find one off items at better prices locally than mail order. I
have a friend who is always telling me about great prices on wheelsets
or bikes or tires or something he gets locally after arguing, debating,
jewing with his favorite shop owner. And showing them a
Performance/Nashbar catalog price. Its usually something the shop has
had sitting around for a long time and they are closing out. Just like
a mail order place closes out or has big sales on slow moving items.
And my friend has patronized this shop for 30+ years and is friends
with the owner. I doubt the bike shop would give normal customers any
discounts. When I ask my friend about Campagnolo cassettes at his
favorite shop, or Campagnolo hub wheels, he says the shop does not have
Campagnolo. No local shops have Campagnolo. So for normal items like
Campagnolo cassettes, brakes, wheels, derailleurs, Ergo shifters, I can
get all of these items mail order for discounts off MSRP. Whereas
locally they would all be 100% or more of MSRP and a special order.
But I agree you can find local blowout sales on one off items better
than mail order.
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>Lou Holtman wrote:
>> it's as silly as calling a customer
>> buying a Tiso RD a dumb customer.
>
>What does "tiso" mean?
Dear Andrew,
"Tiso" is just a brand name on a light-weight rear derailleur with a
hefty price that recently appeared in another thread in which posters
cheered themselves up by sneering at expensive equipment and the
people who buy it:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cc761dc42a1c6dff
The word "ttiso" appears to have no particular meaning in Dutch,
English, French, German, Greek, Italian, Portugese, Russian, or
Spanish, but it could turn out to be a matter of a garbled
spelling-by-ear, like the mysterious "brelew" that Zebulon Pike
recorded killing along with his usual buffalo for breakfast one day
in his journal, without any further explanation [1].
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
[1] The poor dead "brelew" was probably not even eaten. It was just an
ordinary Great Plains badger, which Pike gave an undeserved air of
mystery by mis-remembering how the French pronounce "blaireau." It is
astonishing how many damned animals had to be hunted down across the
wilds of the internet and eliminated as candidates before a
frenchified badger was exposed as Pike's victim.
For example, Pike occasionally shot "capies" on his journey to my neck
of the woods. The "capie" is a less mysterious beast than the
"brelew."
"Capies" were not caped Spanish soldiers (Colorado boasts several
alleged cannibals), nor capybaras (South America), nor even Cape
buffalo (Africa), but merely the stocky little pronghorn, which the
early explorers thought were probably some sort of goat, not having
noticed its tremendous speed (it helps to have a car to put a
pronghorn through its paces).
We now mis-call pronghorns "antelope," but the pronghorn is actually
just its own creature, unrelated to the Old World antelopes. The Latin
name Antilocapra reminds us of early confusion, meaning antelope-goat.
"Capie" was just short for "capricorn."
(No bicycles were involved, much less harmed, in the production of
this perfectly appropriate footnote. A citizen of Wisconsin who
inquires about a word is incapable of being badgered. Nice to see you
again on RBT, Andrew.)
CF
Ozark Bicycle
Yep, and, IMO, the "Little Shop of Horrors" style LBS is one of them.
You all know the place: limited selection, high prices, know nothing
staff with a 'tude, and inept service.
(And note well: this does not include the Chain Reactions, Harris
Cyclerys, Yellow Jerseys, Vecchios, etc., etc. Shops which add value to
product through service and knowledge will always thrive.)
531Aussie
are we talking wheel bargains? No? Ah well.:)
[image: http://vmartin.bigpondhosting.com/photos/bmc_rear.jpg]
this wheel cost me (AUD).
DTRR1.2 RIM: $100
new 'old stock' 105 9sp hub: $60
2mm DT Champions: $15
= $175
--
531Aussie
A Muzi
> [Russell & Peter's dialogue snipped. Summary: Russell thinks B&M is
> expensive]
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> Bullshit...we do not suffer with Excel, Performance and Colorado
>> Cyclist 100 miles away. We don't because MO sells 95% of their stuff
>> over the phone. They rely on volume to make up the difference in
>> margin. They do not sell service. People that want good service are
>> willing to pay a fair price for the parts, and they DO!! They do not
>> get good service from the two MO places here in Boulder.
>> Since LBS whine about MO prices, you assume we are somehow hurting, not
>> so. Check out the prices in Excel, not the closeout crap, but everyday
>> prices...I'll give you some examples-I have the catalog right here.
>> FSA Gossamer crank/BB-Excel-$179.95, $185 Vecchios
-snip-
>> so, considerably higher just doesn't apply. closeout prices,
>> discontinued things are no more the standard than what you mention.
>> OBTW-they charge no labor generally for wheelbuilds and you get what
>> you pay for.
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Just as an amusing data point: in Canada, Boxing Day sales are where
> it's at for clearance and stupid deals. A local consignment-oriented
> sporting goods shop (Sports Junkies) with a strong bike aspect always
> does a ludicrously fun Boxing Day sale. Aside from a set of perfectly
> nice Adidas MTB shoes for C$10, I also got a Truvativ Rouleur Carbon GXP
> compact crankset (external-bearing BB included) for C$120.
> I don't think I'll ever beat that deal at mail order.
> BTW, the Rouleur Carbons are the most over-the-top stylin' cranks ever:
> elaborately shaped carbon arms with a mirror-polished aluminum spider
> and chainrings. In a classic case of cognitive dissonance, I'm going to
> put them on an early-80s steel Bianchi that I use as a 'cross bike. The
> frame has numerous surface rust spots.
> http://www.fullcycles.com/product_info.php/products_id/366
> Trick Question: I bought the English BB version. How am I going to
> install it on the Bianchi?
Another small facet of this discussion!
We are high on some items, low on others - just like every other
business in every other industry.
A full-service LBS commonly installs components, hopefully advises at
time of sale, shows mercy in cases such as yours. . .
Jasper Janssen
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> My LBS asks about 20-30 euros for building a wheel, and they're pretty
>> competent (although sometimes the spoke tension isn't really high enough).
>> If I buy my parts at Rose Versand, Europe's largest mail order supplier,
>> they will turn them into wheels at 13E per. Let's look at the catalog:
>>
>> DA 7800 hubs: 85+136
>> DT Revs per 20: 7,20 (2 packs)
>> DT Comps per 20 silver: 4,40 (2 packs) (Note that you'll have a couple of
>> spokes left over as spares, even)
>>
>> Well, I can't find Velocity rims in the catalogue, and the webstore has
>> suffered a case of Microsoftitis[1] today so no verification there either,
>> but let's assume they did carry them, they'd probably be around 40-50E.
>>
>> I make it a total of 85+136+2*7.20+2*4.40+90+2*13=360.20 euros.
>>
>> The problem of course is that they really will only build with stuff you
>> buy from them, they're not a bike shop where you effectively simply hire
>> labour and can bring in parts.
>So about $500, with stoopid low labor-$13 euros is about $20?? Pay
Well, yes, the dollar is stupidly low in value, but it doesn't really work
that way. For price comparisons, 1 to 1 is about right -- partly that
compensates for the 19% VA Tax , while the USD value is invariably ex
sales tax, and for another things tend to be more expensive here.
Incidentally, I checked, and it's 15.50, not 13. We both know that's nto
enough to pay for the labour, even with a well-trained wheelbuilder not
spending too much time on each wheel, but then they probably figure
they're selling hubs, spokes and rims as a package deal and can therefore
afford a slightly lower margin.
>notmuch for labor and you get what you pay for. 50 Euros is about
I've never heard anybody complain about a Rose-built wheel, and there are
plenty of them around. Somebody who spends their entire day building
wheels (and who is happy doing that) can, all else equal, get much better
at it than an LBS guy who only does a couple a week.
>$70..but no rims so...
The total figure I gave there includes 45 euro each for rims, which will
get you decent rims, just not necessarily the Aeroheads that were specced
originally in this subthread.
>Mailorder does not = local bike shop.The standard is brick and mortar
>bike shop, in spite of the fact that lots on this NG reference MO as if
>that's the 'way it is'.
MO prices approach bulk distributor prices fairly closely, and are
therefore they are much closer to useful information than retail pricing
is, which varies widely with the amoutn of markup a particular shop
changes and, usually, with how insistent you are about getting a good
deal.
The latter part is what truly pisses me off most and means that I tend to
prefer mail order places -- at least with MO I can just go to the internet
(or a few magazines in the bad old days), compare prices and company
reputation, and simply order -- whereas with a brick and mortar shop, you
first establish what you want, and then you have to fricking haggle over
it, unless you want to pay up to twice as much as the next poor sod who
comes in the door. I don't do haggling very well, and I don't think even a
year of living next to the Grand Bazaar of Istanbul could fix that.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
<pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>None-you are assuming MO is some kind of answer, that MO and the
>internet is going to somehow make brick and mortar go away. Just the
>opposite is happening, particularly with part pricing(shimano BIG
>example). What is overpaying? Define the standard? Do you overpay if
>somebody sells under margin and relies on volume to make up the
>difference? Is the lowest price the price it ought to be and everything
>higher is overcharging??Poppycock. You don't understand retail in
>general and bicycle retail specifically if you think this.
When someone with a cockney accent, smile on his face, and a ruthless
persona can get n percent off[1] and/or a bunch of accessories thrown in
at the same store that I shop at at their full retail price, then I am
overpaying.
Jasper
[1] Where n can easily be 50 for things like beds, clothes, etc -- the
traditional high-margin businesses.
Jasper Janssen
>On 2006-12-28, joseph.sa...@gmail.com <joseph.sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And can someone please explain why the nipple at the hub rotational
>> mass ploy actually has merit or is just bunk?
>
>If you have two wheels of the same mass, but one of which has more of
>the mass distributed near the centre, a given torque will produce a
>greater change of angular velocity in that wheel.
>
>So it might make the wheel spin up slightly faster, which I suppose
>could help a racer concerned with sprinting.
It would also brake slightly faster, since there's less rotational energy
in the spinning wheel. If you just let the energy run out, rather than
braking hard, though, your total energy expenditure is the same -- you get
it back at the end. So only people who are concerned with absolute best
times, and doing that by braking late and hard for corners and then
spinning back up to speed again quickly, could really see the benefits.
Apart from all that, though, if you do the calculations, the effect is
very, very small. Far from "a pound on the rim is worth two on the bike",
it's more like a pound at the rim is worth a pound plus a gram or two on
the bike.
Jasper
A Muzi
>>> it's as silly as calling a customer
>>> buying a Tiso RD a dumb customer.
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:12:35 -0600, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>> What does "tiso" mean?
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> Dear Andrew,
> "Tiso" is just a brand name on a light-weight rear derailleur with a
> hefty price that recently appeared in another thread in which posters
> cheered themselves up by sneering at expensive equipment and the
> people who buy it:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cc761dc42a1c6dff
-snip-
Geez, a few months' absence and the whole world changes.
Thanks!
Michael Press
Lou Holtman <lholrem...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Derk wrote:
> >
> >>Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>
> >>>It is with a certain demographic. Personally, I don't get it (and I do
> >>>like my coffee). I guess I'd rather ride than chit chat about the
> >>>newest bling whilst holding a $5 cup of coffee.
> >>
> >>I order coffee (Columbia beans) for my Gaggia Espresso machine from the best
> >>coffee importer in Holland and that costs 17,10 Euros/Kilo. Sure I know
> >>that it's more expensive in a bar, but $5 a cup??? No wonder these people
> >>can afford to buy the flashy stuff!
> >>
> >
> >
> > Sad but true, it's easy to spend $5 a cup at a place like $tarbucks.
> > Many Americans feel that a high price implies high quality. So,
> > $tarbucks inflated prices tend to enhance their image!
>
> Is that the place where the employees have to ask you 20 question first
> before they give you a cup of coffee? Boy, I hate that when I'm over there.
Good coffee has been available and appreciated in this
town forever. Rather than nurse my preconceptions, I
went into a starbucks, and ordered a cup of black
coffee. It had no extra flavor that accompanies a
decent cup of coffee; simply bitter, acid, and charred
wood. Now I can demean them with a clear conscience.
--
Michael Press
Ryan Cousineau
A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Hee hee...the trick answer, Andrew, is that the BB is installed. The
reason this worked is pretty obscure. Care to guess?
A Muzi
>>> Trick Question: I bought the English BB version. How am I going to
>>> install it on the Bianchi?
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> A full-service LBS commonly installs components, hopefully advises at
>> time of sale, shows mercy in cases such as yours. . .
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Hee hee...the trick answer, Andrew, is that the BB is installed. The
> reason this worked is pretty obscure. Care to guess?
Bianchi's first year Asian (BSC) cross bike, the Volpe , was the
salmon-colored 1986 model, not "early 80s". Others should be 36mm.
Hmmmm. Shop traded cups for you?