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Frank Krygowski
Jun 15, 2012, 12:33:50 PM6/15/12
to
Thanks for the apparent concerns (and digs) regarding my absence, folks.
No, I've not been ill or injured. Instead my wife and I just returned
from three weeks roaming France. Several days in Paris, then a few days
in a rental car to Bayeux, Mt. St. Michel, Brittany (caught a tremendous
Breton Trad session in the back room of a pub), etc. Then bicycling
along the Loire, trains to Lyon, TGV to Dijon, biking in Burgundy, and
more time in Paris.
We took our Bikes Friday along with us, leaving the travel cases in
Paris. I greatly prefer having my own bike on a trip, and using the
folding bikes allowed easy switching between bikes, car and trains.
So, regarding biking in France, here's what I saw:
The Velib bike rental system in Paris is incredibly popular. Sitting at
a backstreet restaurant on our last day, I was seeing at least two
Velibs per minute roll by. The stations are everywhere, and the bikes
are used by people of every description. Lots of other bikes too, but
it was cute seeing a lady about 65 passing a dude about 25, she on a
heavy Velib and he on a flashy mountain bike. The bikes are
super-sturdy and heavy, but Paris is flat. Renting as an American was a
bit tedious (I helped a Bostonian figure it out, and he said he'd have
failed without me) and IIRC requires a "chip and pin" credit card.
(Those cards are available in the U.S. _only_ through Andrews Credit
Union, AFAIK.) The only hitch was when we tried to return the bikes to
a station near the Louvre, but all slots were full, and at the next two
stations as well. We had to bike half a kilometer away to find a Velib
rack with spaces.
Paris has a fair number of bike facilities. Many are well done. I
especially liked the fact that most one-way streets seem to allow
two-way cycling, and I'd count that as a bike facility. Some paths
(along the Seine, for example) work pretty well. Many streets have
lanes reserved for buses and bikes, which worked fantastically (the bus
drivers are cooperative). Some paths mix peds and bikes, always a bit
problematic. Unfortunately, there are many places where one must ride
stone pavement, which is ugly on any bike and worse on 20" wheels. All
in all, I though Paris's bike facilities were pretty good. (By
contrast, those in Troyes were absolute garbage. They were as bad as
the dog shit all over Troyes sidewalks.)
But more remarkable was the cycling in absence of bike facilities. Most
streets are just streets, and Paris traffic is fast and frequently
clotted; yet cyclists ride almost every street, and every cyclist seemed
relaxed and confident. I saw none of the salmon riding so common in
America. I did occasionally see cyclists bending the rules in
relatively safe ways (also true of all other road users), but almost all
cycling seemed be done by riding as a legitimate vehicle operator. And
the cooperation among street users was impressive. It seemed it was all
about negotiating and watching for each other, yet moving with
confidence. That applied to cars, buses, trucks, scooters, pedestrians
and cyclists.
Horn honks were amazingly rare, and I mean by anybody toward anybody for
any reason. I recall only one time an impatient motorist honked his
horn at me: I was riding in a downpour in a bike/bus lane at 5:30 PM,
and the motorist behind me was cheating, trying to use the lane to get
through faster than the adjacent car lane. He beeped, I shook my head
(as "I'm not pulling over for you, dude") he beeped again, I kept the
lane, and he turned off at the next intersection.
The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
so than the full-sized motorcycles. Scooter riders were fearless,
splitting lanes at speed, zig-zagging lane to lane between moving cars,
always with mere inches to spare. It looked like a real-life video game.
Helmets? In Paris, definitely fewer than 5% of the cyclists, probably
about 2%. It seemed to me that helmets were mostly on a) many people on
performance bikes, whether or not they were in full mating plumage b) a
higher percentage (perhaps 10%?) during evening commute, and c) people
that were pretty obviously Americans, like a group of about six
middle-agers in U.S. cycling jerseys gawking at Notre Dame past their
eyeglass mirrors. I saw precisely one woman carry a bike helmet to a
Velib station, and she had so much trouble just getting the bike moving
that she was obviously foreign and a non-cyclist. Guys in suits, woman
in heels and skirts, ladies doing shopping, college kids with backpacks,
etc. etc. wore no hats. Hundreds of bikes locked in hundreds of places
had no styrofoam hanging.
Outside the cities, bicycle tourists along the Loire were more likely
(maybe 40%) to have helmets, as were young guns charging up Burgundy
hills in full racing gear (probably 95% helmets) and the one retired
guy's cycling club that passed by as we snacked at a small village cafe.
Village folks don't use helmets at all.
Biking the Loire a Velo route was very, very nice, especially since we
did it west to east, and were pushed along by great tailwinds. (I
talked to a New Zealand woman who hadn't thought about wind direction,
and she was pretty disappointed in her E-W route.) That route was
mostly on normal roads, but sometimes used paths along the river, etc.
Sometimes the paths were fine, sometimes they were lousy, and sometimes
we abandoned the latter to ride the roads. I greatly prefer little
lanes through villages, not bypassing them on an isolated path. We
visited several chateaus, especially ones noted for their gardens, which
my wife especially appreciates. Drivers were always cooperative, but
passing distances were sometimes a bit closer than we'd like.
We biked just three days in Burgundy at the advice of friends. On the
first day, heading north out of Dijon, I was thinking of methods of
revenge. 12 km of steady, fairly steep uphill, then more gradual
rising, then we lost something like 500 feet of the altitude we'd gained
all at once, crossing an incredibly steep river valley. My wife made
the climbs only because I was pushing her up as we rode. We repeated
that twice more that day, although not as extreme. But the two days
following were beautiful and much more level.
Troyes had terrible bike facilities, as mentioned. For example, a mixed
bike-ped path separated by a curb from the adjacent road, with big bumps
at every street crossing, plus the hazard of turning motorists not
seeing you because you're not part of street traffic. Or bike lanes
painted around the periphery of roundabouts. Or bike lanes that dodge
through parking areas, onto sidewalks, etc, making us ask "Where the
heck are we supposed to ride _now??_" Obviously a product of the
mindset that says "Any bike facility is a good bike facility - they're
only bikes."
The little lanes connecting little villages were as charming as I'd
dreamed. The French countryside is much different than the U.S. - none
of our interminable suburbs stretching out from every town. In most
cases, the village limit really is the village limit. But one big
disappointment: I'd imagined happy little cafes in every village, with
cute waitresses waving croissants at us as we passed. Instead, all the
little villages were empty! It was rare to see a human being, and cafes
were uniformly closed as we rode by. Similarly, it was a bit tougher
finding B&Bs (or Chambre d'Hotes) than I thought it would be. We did
fine, but it was easier in Ireland years ago.
Tech content? The Bike Fridays did very well, with one problem I hope
turns out to be minor. My headset was clunking and it's not the bearing
adjustment. I'm fearing that the fixed cups are loose in the head tube.
Possible, I suppose, because the Friday design has a two foot stem
reaching from headset to handlebar. That's a lot of leverage in the
fore-aft direction, and I do pull on the bars on steep climbs. It could
eventually lead to deformation. (The bikes are maybe six years old, but
maybe only a thousand miles or so on them.)
All in all, an amazing vacation for us. Not that I didn't miss
discussing things here!
--
- Frank Krygowski
No, I've not been ill or injured. Instead my wife and I just returned
from three weeks roaming France. Several days in Paris, then a few days
in a rental car to Bayeux, Mt. St. Michel, Brittany (caught a tremendous
Breton Trad session in the back room of a pub), etc. Then bicycling
along the Loire, trains to Lyon, TGV to Dijon, biking in Burgundy, and
more time in Paris.
We took our Bikes Friday along with us, leaving the travel cases in
Paris. I greatly prefer having my own bike on a trip, and using the
folding bikes allowed easy switching between bikes, car and trains.
So, regarding biking in France, here's what I saw:
The Velib bike rental system in Paris is incredibly popular. Sitting at
a backstreet restaurant on our last day, I was seeing at least two
Velibs per minute roll by. The stations are everywhere, and the bikes
are used by people of every description. Lots of other bikes too, but
it was cute seeing a lady about 65 passing a dude about 25, she on a
heavy Velib and he on a flashy mountain bike. The bikes are
super-sturdy and heavy, but Paris is flat. Renting as an American was a
bit tedious (I helped a Bostonian figure it out, and he said he'd have
failed without me) and IIRC requires a "chip and pin" credit card.
(Those cards are available in the U.S. _only_ through Andrews Credit
Union, AFAIK.) The only hitch was when we tried to return the bikes to
a station near the Louvre, but all slots were full, and at the next two
stations as well. We had to bike half a kilometer away to find a Velib
rack with spaces.
Paris has a fair number of bike facilities. Many are well done. I
especially liked the fact that most one-way streets seem to allow
two-way cycling, and I'd count that as a bike facility. Some paths
(along the Seine, for example) work pretty well. Many streets have
lanes reserved for buses and bikes, which worked fantastically (the bus
drivers are cooperative). Some paths mix peds and bikes, always a bit
problematic. Unfortunately, there are many places where one must ride
stone pavement, which is ugly on any bike and worse on 20" wheels. All
in all, I though Paris's bike facilities were pretty good. (By
contrast, those in Troyes were absolute garbage. They were as bad as
the dog shit all over Troyes sidewalks.)
But more remarkable was the cycling in absence of bike facilities. Most
streets are just streets, and Paris traffic is fast and frequently
clotted; yet cyclists ride almost every street, and every cyclist seemed
relaxed and confident. I saw none of the salmon riding so common in
America. I did occasionally see cyclists bending the rules in
relatively safe ways (also true of all other road users), but almost all
cycling seemed be done by riding as a legitimate vehicle operator. And
the cooperation among street users was impressive. It seemed it was all
about negotiating and watching for each other, yet moving with
confidence. That applied to cars, buses, trucks, scooters, pedestrians
and cyclists.
Horn honks were amazingly rare, and I mean by anybody toward anybody for
any reason. I recall only one time an impatient motorist honked his
horn at me: I was riding in a downpour in a bike/bus lane at 5:30 PM,
and the motorist behind me was cheating, trying to use the lane to get
through faster than the adjacent car lane. He beeped, I shook my head
(as "I'm not pulling over for you, dude") he beeped again, I kept the
lane, and he turned off at the next intersection.
The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
so than the full-sized motorcycles. Scooter riders were fearless,
splitting lanes at speed, zig-zagging lane to lane between moving cars,
always with mere inches to spare. It looked like a real-life video game.
Helmets? In Paris, definitely fewer than 5% of the cyclists, probably
about 2%. It seemed to me that helmets were mostly on a) many people on
performance bikes, whether or not they were in full mating plumage b) a
higher percentage (perhaps 10%?) during evening commute, and c) people
that were pretty obviously Americans, like a group of about six
middle-agers in U.S. cycling jerseys gawking at Notre Dame past their
eyeglass mirrors. I saw precisely one woman carry a bike helmet to a
Velib station, and she had so much trouble just getting the bike moving
that she was obviously foreign and a non-cyclist. Guys in suits, woman
in heels and skirts, ladies doing shopping, college kids with backpacks,
etc. etc. wore no hats. Hundreds of bikes locked in hundreds of places
had no styrofoam hanging.
Outside the cities, bicycle tourists along the Loire were more likely
(maybe 40%) to have helmets, as were young guns charging up Burgundy
hills in full racing gear (probably 95% helmets) and the one retired
guy's cycling club that passed by as we snacked at a small village cafe.
Village folks don't use helmets at all.
Biking the Loire a Velo route was very, very nice, especially since we
did it west to east, and were pushed along by great tailwinds. (I
talked to a New Zealand woman who hadn't thought about wind direction,
and she was pretty disappointed in her E-W route.) That route was
mostly on normal roads, but sometimes used paths along the river, etc.
Sometimes the paths were fine, sometimes they were lousy, and sometimes
we abandoned the latter to ride the roads. I greatly prefer little
lanes through villages, not bypassing them on an isolated path. We
visited several chateaus, especially ones noted for their gardens, which
my wife especially appreciates. Drivers were always cooperative, but
passing distances were sometimes a bit closer than we'd like.
We biked just three days in Burgundy at the advice of friends. On the
first day, heading north out of Dijon, I was thinking of methods of
revenge. 12 km of steady, fairly steep uphill, then more gradual
rising, then we lost something like 500 feet of the altitude we'd gained
all at once, crossing an incredibly steep river valley. My wife made
the climbs only because I was pushing her up as we rode. We repeated
that twice more that day, although not as extreme. But the two days
following were beautiful and much more level.
Troyes had terrible bike facilities, as mentioned. For example, a mixed
bike-ped path separated by a curb from the adjacent road, with big bumps
at every street crossing, plus the hazard of turning motorists not
seeing you because you're not part of street traffic. Or bike lanes
painted around the periphery of roundabouts. Or bike lanes that dodge
through parking areas, onto sidewalks, etc, making us ask "Where the
heck are we supposed to ride _now??_" Obviously a product of the
mindset that says "Any bike facility is a good bike facility - they're
only bikes."
The little lanes connecting little villages were as charming as I'd
dreamed. The French countryside is much different than the U.S. - none
of our interminable suburbs stretching out from every town. In most
cases, the village limit really is the village limit. But one big
disappointment: I'd imagined happy little cafes in every village, with
cute waitresses waving croissants at us as we passed. Instead, all the
little villages were empty! It was rare to see a human being, and cafes
were uniformly closed as we rode by. Similarly, it was a bit tougher
finding B&Bs (or Chambre d'Hotes) than I thought it would be. We did
fine, but it was easier in Ireland years ago.
Tech content? The Bike Fridays did very well, with one problem I hope
turns out to be minor. My headset was clunking and it's not the bearing
adjustment. I'm fearing that the fixed cups are loose in the head tube.
Possible, I suppose, because the Friday design has a two foot stem
reaching from headset to handlebar. That's a lot of leverage in the
fore-aft direction, and I do pull on the bars on steep climbs. It could
eventually lead to deformation. (The bikes are maybe six years old, but
maybe only a thousand miles or so on them.)
All in all, an amazing vacation for us. Not that I didn't miss
discussing things here!
--
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
Jun 15, 2012, 1:16:43 PM6/15/12
to
deformation, that problem is much more common on short head
tubes than on longish ones.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Dan O
Jun 15, 2012, 3:43:03 PM6/15/12
to
On Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> (I helped a Bostonian figure it out, and he said he'd have
> failed without me)
Back in action.
> (I helped a Bostonian figure it out, and he said he'd have
> failed without me)
retrog...@gmail.com
Jun 15, 2012, 3:44:25 PM6/15/12
to
Thanks for the interesting post, Frank. I haven't gone touring in France for several years, and it really brought back memories.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 15, 2012, 10:18:27 PM6/15/12
to
On 6/15/2012 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
> versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
The "tadpole" scooters are most likely the various sizes of Piaggio MP3.
> The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
> versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
Stoppie picture for Dan O.:
<http://www.thebikergene.com/gallery/cache/PiaggioMP3/-9.jpg_w450.jpg>.
> so than the full-sized motorcycles. Scooter riders were fearless,
> splitting lanes at speed, zig-zagging lane to lane between moving cars,
> always with mere inches to spare. It looked like a real-life video game.
the rear wheel (8.9 HP SAE net) temps me into more crazy things in
traffic than my Honda CBR600F4i with ~98 HP at the rear wheel (108 HP
SAE net) does; except of course for passing a whole line of vehicles
bunched up behind one slow vehicle at once (way too easy to exceed 100
mph in 3rd gear on the F4i).
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Frank Krygowski
Jun 16, 2012, 8:28:10 AM6/16/12
to
Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 6/15/2012 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
>> versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
>
> The "tadpole" scooters are most likely the various sizes of Piaggio MP3.
>
> Stoppie picture for Dan O.:
> <http://www.thebikergene.com/gallery/cache/PiaggioMP3/-9.jpg_w450.jpg>.
That's the type.
> On 6/15/2012 11:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> The scary/amazing ones were the motor scooters, including "tricycle"
>> versions (two front wheels, very common there, very rare here), far more
>
> The "tadpole" scooters are most likely the various sizes of Piaggio MP3.
>
> Stoppie picture for Dan O.:
> <http://www.thebikergene.com/gallery/cache/PiaggioMP3/-9.jpg_w450.jpg>.
One of the guys working at our hotel was a dedicated motorcycle
enthusiast, who ended up showing me photos of his 5 or 6 bikes, most
highly modified. (How he did it on a motel clerk budget, I can't
imagine.) But he was disdainful of the tadpole scooters, saying they're
for people who can't figure out how to balance. I thought the design
looked pretty handy for city use.
>> so than the full-sized motorcycles. Scooter riders were fearless,
>> splitting lanes at speed, zig-zagging lane to lane between moving cars,
>> always with mere inches to spare. It looked like a real-life video game.
>
> If you ride one you will understand. My Honda Elite 110 with ~7 HP at
> the rear wheel (8.9 HP SAE net) temps me into more crazy things in
A good friend of mine rides a Harley he customized. He said he loves
his Harley, but "there's nothing like a scooter."
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 16, 2012, 5:00:14 PM6/16/12
to
On 6/16/2012 7:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> [...]
Interesting combination. Often while riding a scooter I get
gratuitously flipped off by random bikers [1], with pretty much all on
H-D, not Victory, "metrics", Triumph (i.e. America, Thunderbird, Rocket
III), or the odd Euro cruiser (e.g. BMW Montauk, Ducati Indiana and
Diavel, Moto Guzzi California and Nevada).
And 90+% of the people who do not wave back when I am on my Honda NT700V
(which is often mistaken for a Beemer) are on H-D cruisers.
As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
[1] Not people who I know or have ever met.
> [...]
> A good friend of mine rides a Harley he customized. He said he loves his
> Harley, but "there's nothing like a scooter."[...]
Interesting combination. Often while riding a scooter I get
gratuitously flipped off by random bikers [1], with pretty much all on
H-D, not Victory, "metrics", Triumph (i.e. America, Thunderbird, Rocket
III), or the odd Euro cruiser (e.g. BMW Montauk, Ducati Indiana and
Diavel, Moto Guzzi California and Nevada).
And 90+% of the people who do not wave back when I am on my Honda NT700V
(which is often mistaken for a Beemer) are on H-D cruisers.
As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
[1] Not people who I know or have ever met.
Frank Krygowski
Jun 17, 2012, 12:01:10 AM6/17/12
to
Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>
>
> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
Hmm. Well, I ran into one of my Harley riding friends just this
>
>
> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
evening. He's a Catholic priest who took time out from some folk
dancing to come over and talk to me about our vacation. Yes, he was
folk dancing in motorcycle boots, black jeans and a Harley T-shirt (and
his usual big smile). One of the warmest, best guys I know.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 12:47:40 AM6/17/12
to
Heck, a guy on a Electra-Glide waved to me when I was riding my scooter.
But the middle fingers and yells of "faggot" and the like outnumber
the positive about 10:1.
Dan O
Jun 17, 2012, 12:51:47 AM6/17/12
to
On Jun 16, 9:01 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
Sublimated libido (?)
wrote:
Dan O
Jun 17, 2012, 1:49:13 AM6/17/12
to
On Jun 16, 2:00 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
When* I worked in a shop that sold Harleys, I got to uncrate and ride
them. I'd save up a couple of them in different colors to ride
through the park one right after the other for effect :-) I got a
kick out of the safety warning sticker on the air cleaner that said,
"Avoid fast starts" (though it's true they did come out of the hole
like squirrely crap).
(* Unfortunately this was during the AMF years. Fortunately the shop
also sold Yamaha Elevens and Kawasaki 1 liter turbo and 1300cc
horizontal six-cylinder road bikes. That 1300 may have been more than
700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
"Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
riding those things, though.)
them. I'd save up a couple of them in different colors to ride
through the park one right after the other for effect :-) I got a
kick out of the safety warning sticker on the air cleaner that said,
"Avoid fast starts" (though it's true they did come out of the hole
like squirrely crap).
(* Unfortunately this was during the AMF years. Fortunately the shop
also sold Yamaha Elevens and Kawasaki 1 liter turbo and 1300cc
horizontal six-cylinder road bikes. That 1300 may have been more than
700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
"Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
riding those things, though.)
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 8:58:34 AM6/17/12
to
On 6/17/2012 12:49 AM, Dan O wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2:00 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>> On 6/16/2012 7:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>> A good friend of mine rides a Harley he customized. He said he loves his
>>> Harley, but "there's nothing like a scooter."[...]
>>
>> Interesting combination. Often while riding a scooter I get
>> gratuitously flipped off by random bikers [1], with pretty much all on
>> H-D, not Victory, "metrics", Triumph (i.e. America, Thunderbird, Rocket
>> III), or the odd Euro cruiser (e.g. BMW Montauk, Ducati Indiana and
>> Diavel, Moto Guzzi California and Nevada).
>>
>> And 90+% of the people who do not wave back when I am on my Honda NT700V
>> (which is often mistaken for a Beemer) are on H-D cruisers.
>>
>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>
>> [1] Not people who I know or have ever met.
>>
>
> When* I worked in a shop that sold Harleys, I got to uncrate and ride
> them. I'd save up a couple of them in different colors to ride
> through the park one right after the other for effect :-) I got a
> kick out of the safety warning sticker on the air cleaner that said,
> "Avoid fast starts" (though it's true they did come out of the hole
> like squirrely crap).
>
H-D finally (2009 model year) fixed that in the touring models by making
> On Jun 16, 2:00 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>> On 6/16/2012 7:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>> A good friend of mine rides a Harley he customized. He said he loves his
>>> Harley, but "there's nothing like a scooter."[...]
>>
>> Interesting combination. Often while riding a scooter I get
>> gratuitously flipped off by random bikers [1], with pretty much all on
>> H-D, not Victory, "metrics", Triumph (i.e. America, Thunderbird, Rocket
>> III), or the odd Euro cruiser (e.g. BMW Montauk, Ducati Indiana and
>> Diavel, Moto Guzzi California and Nevada).
>>
>> And 90+% of the people who do not wave back when I am on my Honda NT700V
>> (which is often mistaken for a Beemer) are on H-D cruisers.
>>
>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>
>> [1] Not people who I know or have ever met.
>>
>
> When* I worked in a shop that sold Harleys, I got to uncrate and ride
> them. I'd save up a couple of them in different colors to ride
> through the park one right after the other for effect :-) I got a
> kick out of the safety warning sticker on the air cleaner that said,
> "Avoid fast starts" (though it's true they did come out of the hole
> like squirrely crap).
>
the frames stiff enough in torsion (something Honda did over 3 decades
earlier in the Gold Wing, not to mention every twin-spar frame sport
bike from various manufacturers). Too bad H-D still uses substandard
brakes on most models (single front disc on something that weighs over
700 pounds is ridiculous), as cruisers have the potential for excellent
braking due to their weight distribution, as well as substandard
suspensions for styling reasons and/or low seat heights (hard to make
suspension on an 800+ pound bagger work will with less than 3 inches of
travel). And the low lean clearance (26° to 32°) on most models means
one better use caution entering a corner at speed, as grounding out will
result in a low-side fall:
<http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc259/2008ultra/crash.jpg>.
> (* Unfortunately this was during the AMF years. Fortunately the shop
> also sold Yamaha Elevens and Kawasaki 1 liter turbo and 1300cc
> horizontal six-cylinder road bikes. That 1300 may have been more than
> 700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
> while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
> "Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
> did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
> probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
> riding those things, though.)
drag-strips using methods that often damage the clutch - you will not
repeat them on the street on a regular basis.
The modern bikes make those of the 1970's seem like antiques. A modern
super-sport (600cc I-4 with liquid cooling and 4 valves/cylinder, etc,
etc, etc) is faster overall than 1100cc bike of that era.
Message has been deleted
Frank Krygowski
Jun 17, 2012, 11:19:04 AM6/17/12
to
Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>
> Just remember that published quarter-mile times are from nicely prepped
> drag-strips using methods that often damage the clutch - you will not
> repeat them on the street on a regular basis.
Nor will you ever need to.
>
> Just remember that published quarter-mile times are from nicely prepped
> drag-strips using methods that often damage the clutch - you will not
> repeat them on the street on a regular basis.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Jay Beattie
Jun 17, 2012, 1:32:09 PM6/17/12
to
-- Jay Beattie.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 2:11:44 PM6/17/12
to
On 6/17/2012 12:32 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> Tom $herman (-_-)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>
>> Hmm. Well, I ran into one of my Harley riding friends just this
>> evening. He's a Catholic priest who took time out from some folk
>> dancing to come over and talk to me about our vacation. Yes, he was
>> folk dancing in motorcycle boots, black jeans and a Harley T-shirt (and
>> his usual big smile). One of the warmest, best guys I know.
>
> I don't get why people define themselves by a museum piece engineered to vibrate and make noise. Anyone with enough cash can buy one, put on the t-shirt and annoy his or her neighbors. I have a neighbor who lets his warm up in the driveway, sputtering and belching like a P-51 Mustang. Drives me nuts.
It is commonly thought that warming up a motorcycle is necessary to
> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> Tom $herman (-_-)> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>
>> Hmm. Well, I ran into one of my Harley riding friends just this
>> evening. He's a Catholic priest who took time out from some folk
>> dancing to come over and talk to me about our vacation. Yes, he was
>> folk dancing in motorcycle boots, black jeans and a Harley T-shirt (and
>> his usual big smile). One of the warmest, best guys I know.
>
> I don't get why people define themselves by a museum piece engineered to vibrate and make noise. Anyone with enough cash can buy one, put on the t-shirt and annoy his or her neighbors. I have a neighbor who lets his warm up in the driveway, sputtering and belching like a P-51 Mustang. Drives me nuts.
prevent accidental stalling (and dumping the bike if it happens at low
speed). However, with fuel injection (standard on H-D now for more than
half a decade) and automatic enrichment circuits, this is not necessary. [1]
And a stock H-D idling to warm up is not too bad - the problems is these
wannabee badasses gut their mufflers or put on illegal pipes that are
not EPA certified to meet the noise emissions standards [2], then sit
and cause excessive internal wear by revving their engines excessively
while still cold.
> And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me.
the mirrors/elbows, and can tell how much clearance I have much more
precisely than if I was in a cage. I do slow down so I am not going
much faster than they are (as hitting a person on a bicycle would like
put both of us down) and use relative low engine speed and throttle to
pull away (except on the 108cc scooter, which is not going to produce a
loud scary exhaust note (or much acceleration for that matter) at full
throttle).
> It's not like they pass and disappear like the metrics. The HD riders tend to promenade as though they are in a parade. I stack up behind them on downhills.
tread, normal compound bicycle tire would lose grip at about 45° of lean
angle. Modern sport-bike tires will slip at about 40° of lean on clean,
*wet* pavement, and at about 60° on clean, dry pavement (once warmed
up). However, most sport-bikes will start dragging pegs at a bit less
than 50°, so as to prevent high-side falls that may launch the rider
into the air and/or into oncoming traffic, which why hanging off the
bike is used to increase cornering speeds. Contrast that to most H-D
cruisers running out of ground clearance at 26° to 32° of lean (per the
H-D website), and many H-D riders being the types with 6 months of
riding experience many times over, so they do not hang off the bike, and
you will understand why their cornering speeds are so slow (along with
cruiser tires being significantly harder/less grippy than sport-bike and
sport-touring tires).
[1] Main problem is making large carbureted engines meet emissions
standards, which requires excessively lean running.
[2] <http://www.noiseoff.org/pipes/section.09.01.php>. Note that the 80
dBA limit is measured at 50 feet perpendicular to the longitudinal axis
of the bike (the other common measurement is 12 inches from the exhaust
outlet, which typically produces numbers from 80 dBA at idle for quieter
stock bikes, to in excess of 110 dBA for some non-certified systems at
full throttle.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 2:22:13 PM6/17/12
to
while waiting to turn left, the cager bearing down on you has not seen
you and you better get out of the way in a hurry.
Been there, done that once, which is why I now avoid "unprotected" left
turns when I may have to wait on oncoming traffic if at all possible.
Even more important to avoid unprotected left turns on a bicycle, which
will not accelerate quickly, despite the claims of some. After all, a
world class sprinter only puts out a little over 2200 W (~3 HP, or about
the same as a 49cc moped), and that only at a high cadence that is not
possible at low speeds with standard road bike low gearing.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 2:40:39 PM6/17/12
to
On 6/17/2012 9:39 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Dan O<danov...@gmail.com> considered Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:49:13
> Unless you got a different model in the US, the Kawasaki turbo was a
> 750 (actually 738cc, iirc, and based on a development of the Z650
> engine).
> It was a real rocket though - I remember one of the magazines here
> describing it as "up to 5,000 rpm, it's like any other 750, between
> there and 7,500rpm it's like a good litre bike, and beyond that it's
> like nothing else on earth".
Well, my CBR600F4i is solid below 8000 rpm - rather comparable to my
"Dullsville" from 4000 rpm on up. At 8000+ rpm it comes "on the cam",
with 60-100 mph taking about 4 seconds. SAE net specific output is 180
HP/L, or about the same as the Ferrari T4 Jody Scheckter drove to the
1979 World Championship. And unlike the Ferrari, the F4i has an air
cleaner, catalytic converter, a muffler that meets EPA noise
requirements, runs on 87 octane (R+M) fuel, and meets Honda's stringent
standards for street bike durability.
I have not had a chance to ride a new Kawasaki ZX-14R (ZZR1400 in
Europe), which will run 60-180 mph in about 16 seconds. Best to leave
the traction and wheelie control on unless you have the throttle control
skills of a professional racer, eh?
>> That 1300 may have been more than
>> 700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
>> while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
>> "Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
>> did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
>> probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
>> riding those things, though.)
>
> Hehe, I know what you mean there.
> BTDTGTTS :)
The modern sport-bikes are really to fast for street use, which is why I
have been thinking about trading the F4i in for a Moto Guzzi V7 that
make just under 40 HP at the rear wheel. Or maybe a Kawasaki Ninja 250,
if they ever import the fuel-injected version to the US.
> Dan O<danov...@gmail.com> considered Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:49:13
> 750 (actually 738cc, iirc, and based on a development of the Z650
> engine).
> It was a real rocket though - I remember one of the magazines here
> describing it as "up to 5,000 rpm, it's like any other 750, between
> there and 7,500rpm it's like a good litre bike, and beyond that it's
> like nothing else on earth".
Well, my CBR600F4i is solid below 8000 rpm - rather comparable to my
"Dullsville" from 4000 rpm on up. At 8000+ rpm it comes "on the cam",
with 60-100 mph taking about 4 seconds. SAE net specific output is 180
HP/L, or about the same as the Ferrari T4 Jody Scheckter drove to the
1979 World Championship. And unlike the Ferrari, the F4i has an air
cleaner, catalytic converter, a muffler that meets EPA noise
requirements, runs on 87 octane (R+M) fuel, and meets Honda's stringent
standards for street bike durability.
I have not had a chance to ride a new Kawasaki ZX-14R (ZZR1400 in
Europe), which will run 60-180 mph in about 16 seconds. Best to leave
the traction and wheelie control on unless you have the throttle control
skills of a professional racer, eh?
>> That 1300 may have been more than
>> 700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
>> while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
>> "Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
>> did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
>> probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
>> riding those things, though.)
>
> BTDTGTTS :)
The modern sport-bikes are really to fast for street use, which is why I
have been thinking about trading the F4i in for a Moto Guzzi V7 that
make just under 40 HP at the rear wheel. Or maybe a Kawasaki Ninja 250,
if they ever import the fuel-injected version to the US.
Frank Krygowski
Jun 17, 2012, 2:51:30 PM6/17/12
to
much), my own "museum piece" is a 1972 BMW R75/5. Perhaps more
sophisticated than a Harley, but maybe not much so. I like its simplicity.
That hotel guy in Paris was showing me photos of all his sport bikes,
most highly modified with performance parts. Sophisticated engineering
in them, for sure. I mentioned that in the US, Harley's are by far the
most common motorcycle seen. He said "Oh, we love them!" I said "But
they're so primitive compared with your bikes." He said "That's why we
love them!"
People simply have different tastes. I have two friends into antique
bicycles, including "ordinaries." That's a very primitive machine - but
beautiful in its way.
I do agree with your distaste for noise, though. FWIW, in France it was
the scooters that were noisiest. Bunches of young guys seemed to think
it was macho to modify their scooter to increase power from 6 HP to 6.2
HP, and in the process produce the noise of an angry housefly at 100 dB.
I don't think of houseflies as macho. Nor wasps (vespas) for that matter.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Dan O
Jun 17, 2012, 3:46:31 PM6/17/12
to
On Jun 17, 5:58 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net"> wrote:
<snip>
>
> The modern bikes make those of the 1970's seem like antiques. A modern
> super-sport (600cc I-4 with liquid cooling and 4 valves/cylinder, etc,
> etc, etc) is faster overall than 1100cc bike of that era.
>
And I would venture to say the "antique" 750 Triumph ridden by Brad
Hurst at Castle Rock in ~1978 would smoke them both in many
circumstances.
$southslope.net"> wrote:
<snip>
>
> The modern bikes make those of the 1970's seem like antiques. A modern
> super-sport (600cc I-4 with liquid cooling and 4 valves/cylinder, etc,
> etc, etc) is faster overall than 1100cc bike of that era.
>
Hurst at Castle Rock in ~1978 would smoke them both in many
circumstances.
Dan O
Jun 17, 2012, 3:47:35 PM6/17/12
to
On Jun 17, 7:39 am, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> considered Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:49:13
<snip>
>
> >(* Unfortunately this was during the AMF years. Fortunately the shop
> >also sold Yamaha Elevens and Kawasaki 1 liter turbo and 1300cc
> >horizontal six-cylinder road bikes.
>
in the shop.
> It was a real rocket though - I remember one of the magazines here
> describing it as "up to 5,000 rpm, it's like any other 750, between
> there and 7,500rpm it's like a good litre bike, and beyond that it's
> like nothing else on earth".
>
<snip>
> Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> considered Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:49:13
<snip>
>
> >(* Unfortunately this was during the AMF years. Fortunately the shop
> >also sold Yamaha Elevens and Kawasaki 1 liter turbo and 1300cc
> >horizontal six-cylinder road bikes.
>
> Unless you got a different model in the US, the Kawasaki turbo was a
> 750 (actually 738cc, iirc, and based on a development of the Z650
> engine).
Pretty sure it was a 1000cc. ~1978. I only ever saw the one we had
> 750 (actually 738cc, iirc, and based on a development of the Z650
> engine).
in the shop.
> It was a real rocket though - I remember one of the magazines here
> describing it as "up to 5,000 rpm, it's like any other 750, between
> there and 7,500rpm it's like a good litre bike, and beyond that it's
> like nothing else on earth".
>
Dan O
Jun 17, 2012, 3:47:54 PM6/17/12
to
On Jun 17, 8:19 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
But what if zombies are coming for you? (Nobody *needs* to ride a
bicycle, either.)
wrote:
bicycle, either.)
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 4:07:34 PM6/17/12
to
On 6/17/2012 1:51 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> Tom $herman (-_-)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>>>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>>
>>> Hmm. Well, I ran into one of my Harley riding friends just this
>>> evening. He's a Catholic priest who took time out from some folk
>>> dancing to come over and talk to me about our vacation. Yes, he was
>>> folk dancing in motorcycle boots, black jeans and a Harley T-shirt (and
>>> his usual big smile). One of the warmest, best guys I know.
>>
>> I don't get why people define themselves by a museum piece engineered
>> to vibrate and make noise. Anyone with enough cash can buy one, put on
>> the t-shirt and annoy his or her neighbors. I have a neighbor who lets
>> his warm up in the driveway, sputtering and belching like a P-51
>> Mustang. Drives me nuts. And I don't get much love from these (mostly)
>> guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close
>> and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer
>> roar effect -- apparently just to scare me. It's not like they pass
>> and disappear like the metrics. The HD riders tend to promenade as
>> though they are in a parade. I stack up behind them on downhills.
>
> While I don't define myself by it (in fact, I don't even ride it very
> much), my own "museum piece" is a 1972 BMW R75/5. Perhaps more
> sophisticated than a Harley, but maybe not much so. I like its simplicity.
>
The difference is that current BMW's (including the R-series outside the
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 16, 2012 9:01:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> Tom $herman (-_-)> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the guy I know who rides a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 cruiser says, "I do
>>>> not have the bad attitude to ride a Harley".
>>>
>>> Hmm. Well, I ran into one of my Harley riding friends just this
>>> evening. He's a Catholic priest who took time out from some folk
>>> dancing to come over and talk to me about our vacation. Yes, he was
>>> folk dancing in motorcycle boots, black jeans and a Harley T-shirt (and
>>> his usual big smile). One of the warmest, best guys I know.
>>
>> I don't get why people define themselves by a museum piece engineered
>> to vibrate and make noise. Anyone with enough cash can buy one, put on
>> the t-shirt and annoy his or her neighbors. I have a neighbor who lets
>> his warm up in the driveway, sputtering and belching like a P-51
>> Mustang. Drives me nuts. And I don't get much love from these (mostly)
>> guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close
>> and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer
>> roar effect -- apparently just to scare me. It's not like they pass
>> and disappear like the metrics. The HD riders tend to promenade as
>> though they are in a parade. I stack up behind them on downhills.
>
> While I don't define myself by it (in fact, I don't even ride it very
> much), my own "museum piece" is a 1972 BMW R75/5. Perhaps more
> sophisticated than a Harley, but maybe not much so. I like its simplicity.
>
engine architecture) use modern technology (and the 2013 R-series will
be liquid cooled, and possibly with 3 or 4 valves per cylinder). On the
other hand, after the management buy-out from AMF, H-D decided that they
could not or would not compete on technology, performance, and price
with the Japanese, instead deciding to sell on image and nostalgia.
> That hotel guy in Paris was showing me photos of all his sport bikes,
> most highly modified with performance parts. Sophisticated engineering
> in them, for sure. I mentioned that in the US, Harley's are by far the
> most common motorcycle seen. He said "Oh, we love them!" I said "But
> they're so primitive compared with your bikes." He said "That's why we
> love them!"
>
other motos (including Spirit Lake, Iowa built Victory's) are crap, and
that H-D is the best in performance, etc (which is ridiculous when you
do an objective evaluation).
Not all European motorcycles are much more advanced than a H-D - Moto
Guzzi and the Triumph "Classics" series come to mind. But Piaggio would
say that is deliberate, with Aprilia (particularly the RSV4 APRC and
Tuono VR4 APRC) being their technology showcases, and Triumph offering
modern designs in their other lines.
> People simply have different tastes. I have two friends into antique
> bicycles, including "ordinaries." That's a very primitive machine - but
> beautiful in its way.
>
sound, feel). But to claim that the engines (other than the Porsche
designed Revolution), chassis, and suspension are anything other than
old technology is just plain silly.
> I do agree with your distaste for noise, though. FWIW, in France it was
> the scooters that were noisiest. Bunches of young guys seemed to think
> it was macho to modify their scooter to increase power from 6 HP to 6.2
> HP, and in the process produce the noise of an angry housefly at 100 dB.
>
> I don't think of houseflies as macho. Nor wasps (vespas) for that matter.
on my 2010 Honda Elite. And at idle, the most noisy thing is the
license plate holder rattling. And being 4-stroke, liquid-cooled, 3-way
catalytic converted equipped, and with PGM-FI, it does not smoke/stink
like a vintage Vespa. :)
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 4:16:09 PM6/17/12
to
regulations on 91 octane (R+M) fuel, DOT standards for lights/turn
signals and street legal tires, and current self-imposed durability
standards the "Japanese 4" use. Let us compare apples to apples.
Otherwise, let us compare that Triumph on a modern road course to a
Honda RCV213V or Yamaha YZR-M1 1000 and see how it does.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 17, 2012, 8:10:34 PM6/17/12
to
On 6/17/2012 6:24 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> They're even too much for professional racers, on real roads.
> Look at the categories raced on genuine road circuits (not
> built-for-the-purpose racetracks).
> SuperSport class (600cc) were only 4mph slower than Superbikes (1
> litre works bikes) in this year's Isle-of-Man TT, on race average.
> Add even more power and all you'd do is shred tyres (and riders)
> faster.
Yeah, one reason I would not "upgrade" from the CBR600F4i to a "liter
bike" is that the larger bikes like to spin the rear tire on corner
exits, which dramatically decreases tire life. Not to mention launching
the rider on a high-side fall, if he/she lets off the throttle at the
wrong time.
> You can get more performance than any sane person could use on the
> road out of a 600cc.
> Yamaha's FJR1300 is a nice fast tourer though, and I doubt you could
> build a bike as good for mile-eating with a load if you didn't have a
> similar capacity engine in it.
> A friend has one, and only recently took my name off the insurance (I
> can't hold a bike that big up anymore), so it's the last machine I
> rode.
Well, my 680cc Dullsville (54 HP at the rear wheel) has plenty of oomph
to get up to 90+ mph passing speeds even with 275+ pounds of rider and
luggage. The FJR, Pan European, Connie 14, K1600, et al have way more
power than is needed for even 2-up and 75 mph speed limits. The only
things the NT700V really needs are a 6th gear and uprated springs (I am
at 45mm of sag with overnight gear and full preload).
For touring on an easy to hold up bike, I would consider a Silver Wing,
Burgman 650, or possibly the new Beemer maxi scoots.
> "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> Look at the categories raced on genuine road circuits (not
> built-for-the-purpose racetracks).
> SuperSport class (600cc) were only 4mph slower than Superbikes (1
> litre works bikes) in this year's Isle-of-Man TT, on race average.
> Add even more power and all you'd do is shred tyres (and riders)
> faster.
Yeah, one reason I would not "upgrade" from the CBR600F4i to a "liter
bike" is that the larger bikes like to spin the rear tire on corner
exits, which dramatically decreases tire life. Not to mention launching
the rider on a high-side fall, if he/she lets off the throttle at the
wrong time.
>>
>>>> That 1300 may have been more than
>>>> 700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
>>>> while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
>>>> "Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
>>>> did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
>>>> probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
>>>> riding those things, though.)
>>>
>>> Hehe, I know what you mean there.
>>> BTDTGTTS :)
>>
>> The modern sport-bikes are really to fast for street use, which is why I
>> have been thinking about trading the F4i in for a Moto Guzzi V7 that
>> make just under 40 HP at the rear wheel. Or maybe a Kawasaki Ninja 250,
>> if they ever import the fuel-injected version to the US.
>
> Yeah - I'd add capacity for luggage carrying, but not for performance.
>>>> That 1300 may have been more than
>>>> 700 pounds wet, but it was like sitting on the hood of a Cadillac
>>>> while accelerating to 100 mph in like a couple of seconds. The
>>>> "Eleven" was a nice bike, and so named, someone told me, because it
>>>> did a standing start quarter mile in 11 seconds out of the box. Very
>>>> probably I wouldn't be alive to write this today if I'd continued
>>>> riding those things, though.)
>>>
>>> Hehe, I know what you mean there.
>>> BTDTGTTS :)
>>
>> The modern sport-bikes are really to fast for street use, which is why I
>> have been thinking about trading the F4i in for a Moto Guzzi V7 that
>> make just under 40 HP at the rear wheel. Or maybe a Kawasaki Ninja 250,
>> if they ever import the fuel-injected version to the US.
>
> You can get more performance than any sane person could use on the
> road out of a 600cc.
> Yamaha's FJR1300 is a nice fast tourer though, and I doubt you could
> build a bike as good for mile-eating with a load if you didn't have a
> similar capacity engine in it.
> A friend has one, and only recently took my name off the insurance (I
> can't hold a bike that big up anymore), so it's the last machine I
> rode.
Well, my 680cc Dullsville (54 HP at the rear wheel) has plenty of oomph
to get up to 90+ mph passing speeds even with 275+ pounds of rider and
luggage. The FJR, Pan European, Connie 14, K1600, et al have way more
power than is needed for even 2-up and 75 mph speed limits. The only
things the NT700V really needs are a 6th gear and uprated springs (I am
at 45mm of sag with overnight gear and full preload).
For touring on an easy to hold up bike, I would consider a Silver Wing,
Burgman 650, or possibly the new Beemer maxi scoots.
dusto...@mac.com
Jun 18, 2012, 9:12:07 AM6/18/12
to
On Jun 17, 1:51 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > I don't get why people define themselves by a museum piece engineered to vibrate and make noise. Anyone with enough cash can buy one, put on the t-shirt and annoy his or her neighbors. I have a neighbor who lets his warm up in the driveway, sputtering and belching like a P-51 Mustang. Drives me nuts. And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me. It's not like they pass and disappear like the metrics. The HD riders tend to promenade as though they are in a parade. I stack up behind them on downhills.
Riding a Harley in the manner described = "penis assertion". Which is
a substitute for "insertion", in most cases.
(FK responded to the above post from JB, thusly):
> While I don't define myself by it (in fact, I don't even ride it very
> much), my own "museum piece" is a 1972 BMW R75/5. Perhaps more
> sophisticated than a Harley, but maybe not much so. I like its simplicity.
The BMW boxer motor doesn't vibrate everything to pieces like that
> much), my own "museum piece" is a 1972 BMW R75/5. Perhaps more
> sophisticated than a Harley, but maybe not much so. I like its simplicity.
piece-of-crap-design Harley.
That would seem to be entirely too basic a design parameter to be
called "sophistication", but then we're comparing to Harley-Davidsons,
aren't we?
--D-y
reh...@gmail.com
Jul 15, 2012, 7:29:40 PM7/15/12
to
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:11:44 PM UTC-5, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:
<snip>
> And a stock H-D idling to warm up is not too bad - the problems is these
> wannabee badasses gut their mufflers or put on illegal pipes that are
> not EPA certified to meet the noise emissions standards [2], then sit
> and cause excessive internal wear by revving their engines excessively
> while still cold.
This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. What makes these idiots think they have the right to pollute the public space with all that noise. Same goes for jack-holes with thousand watt plus subwoofers/stereos.
>
> > And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me.
See above.
>
> I will pass bicycles in the same lane, as I am less than 3 feet wide at
> the mirrors/elbows, and can tell how much clearance I have much more
> precisely than if I was in a cage. I do slow down so I am not going
> much faster than they are (as hitting a person on a bicycle would like
> put both of us down) and use relative low engine speed and throttle to
> pull away (except on the 108cc scooter, which is not going to produce a
> loud scary exhaust note (or much acceleration for that matter) at full
> throttle).
You sound like a reasonable person, without major personality shortcomings that respects the rights of other persons, unlike most Harley riders I've ever witnessed.
<snip>
>
> [1] Main problem is making large carbureted engines meet emissions
> standards, which requires excessively lean running.
>
> [2] <http://www.noiseoff.org/pipes/section.09.01.php>. Note that the 80
I have a car that isn't exactly loud (Mazdaspeed3, stock exhaust), and many owners complain about the tiresome drone during highway travel. How do these people stand it? They're either deaf or so masochistic they're willing to live with the pain for sake of (the tough guy) image (that Harley sells).
<snip>
> And a stock H-D idling to warm up is not too bad - the problems is these
> wannabee badasses gut their mufflers or put on illegal pipes that are
> not EPA certified to meet the noise emissions standards [2], then sit
> and cause excessive internal wear by revving their engines excessively
> while still cold.
>
> > And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me.
See above.
>
> I will pass bicycles in the same lane, as I am less than 3 feet wide at
> the mirrors/elbows, and can tell how much clearance I have much more
> precisely than if I was in a cage. I do slow down so I am not going
> much faster than they are (as hitting a person on a bicycle would like
> put both of us down) and use relative low engine speed and throttle to
> pull away (except on the 108cc scooter, which is not going to produce a
> loud scary exhaust note (or much acceleration for that matter) at full
> throttle).
<snip>
>
> [1] Main problem is making large carbureted engines meet emissions
> standards, which requires excessively lean running.
>
> dBA limit is measured at 50 feet perpendicular to the longitudinal axis
> of the bike (the other common measurement is 12 inches from the exhaust
> outlet, which typically produces numbers from 80 dBA at idle for quieter
> stock bikes, to in excess of 110 dBA for some non-certified systems at
> full throttle.
What's with these people and why do the police NOT do anything about the noise/exhaust violations? Try complaining to the police about such people and they pay only lip service. Noise pollution is real and has a detrimental effect on the quality of life.
> of the bike (the other common measurement is 12 inches from the exhaust
> outlet, which typically produces numbers from 80 dBA at idle for quieter
> stock bikes, to in excess of 110 dBA for some non-certified systems at
> full throttle.
I have a car that isn't exactly loud (Mazdaspeed3, stock exhaust), and many owners complain about the tiresome drone during highway travel. How do these people stand it? They're either deaf or so masochistic they're willing to live with the pain for sake of (the tough guy) image (that Harley sells).
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jul 15, 2012, 9:27:08 PM7/15/12
to
On 7/15/2012 6:29 PM, reh...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:11:44 PM UTC-5, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> And a stock H-D idling to warm up is not too bad - the problems is these
>> wannabee badasses gut their mufflers or put on illegal pipes that are
>> not EPA certified to meet the noise emissions standards [2], then sit
>> and cause excessive internal wear by revving their engines excessively
>> while still cold.
>
> This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. What makes these idiots think they have the right to pollute the public space with all that noise. Same goes for jack-holes with thousand watt plus subwoofers/stereos.
>
Worse yet, they moronically repeat the "loud pipes save lives" nonsense.
> On Sunday, June 17, 2012 1:11:44 PM UTC-5, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> And a stock H-D idling to warm up is not too bad - the problems is these
>> wannabee badasses gut their mufflers or put on illegal pipes that are
>> not EPA certified to meet the noise emissions standards [2], then sit
>> and cause excessive internal wear by revving their engines excessively
>> while still cold.
>
> This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. What makes these idiots think they have the right to pollute the public space with all that noise. Same goes for jack-holes with thousand watt plus subwoofers/stereos.
>
>>
>> > And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me.
>
> See above.
>
>>
>> I will pass bicycles in the same lane, as I am less than 3 feet wide at
>> the mirrors/elbows, and can tell how much clearance I have much more
>> precisely than if I was in a cage. I do slow down so I am not going
>> much faster than they are (as hitting a person on a bicycle would like
>> put both of us down) and use relative low engine speed and throttle to
>> pull away (except on the 108cc scooter, which is not going to produce a
>> loud scary exhaust note (or much acceleration for that matter) at full
>> throttle).
>
> You sound like a reasonable person, without major personality shortcomings that respects the rights of other persons, unlike most Harley riders I've ever witnessed.
>
Hard to be bad-ass on a step-through scooter. :)
>> > And I don't get much love from these (mostly) guys while riding on the road. They generally pass unnecessarily close and then bury their throttles to get the maximum tweeter rip/subwoofer roar effect -- apparently just to scare me.
>
> See above.
>
>>
>> I will pass bicycles in the same lane, as I am less than 3 feet wide at
>> the mirrors/elbows, and can tell how much clearance I have much more
>> precisely than if I was in a cage. I do slow down so I am not going
>> much faster than they are (as hitting a person on a bicycle would like
>> put both of us down) and use relative low engine speed and throttle to
>> pull away (except on the 108cc scooter, which is not going to produce a
>> loud scary exhaust note (or much acceleration for that matter) at full
>> throttle).
>
> You sound like a reasonable person, without major personality shortcomings that respects the rights of other persons, unlike most Harley riders I've ever witnessed.
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> [1] Main problem is making large carbureted engines meet emissions
>> standards, which requires excessively lean running.
>>
>> [2] <http://www.noiseoff.org/pipes/section.09.01.php>. Note that the 80
>> dBA limit is measured at 50 feet perpendicular to the longitudinal axis
>> of the bike (the other common measurement is 12 inches from the exhaust
>> outlet, which typically produces numbers from 80 dBA at idle for quieter
>> stock bikes, to in excess of 110 dBA for some non-certified systems at
>> full throttle.
>
> What's with these people and why do the police NOT do anything about the noise/exhaust violations? Try complaining to the police about such people and they pay only lip service. Noise pollution is real and has a detrimental effect on the quality of life.
>
addition, since the early 1990's, the typical H-D rider is a doctor,
dentist, accountant, lawyer, etc, playing 1% MC member on the weekends,
and the police know better than to offend the upper middle class too much.
> I have a car that isn't exactly loud (Mazdaspeed3, stock exhaust), and many owners complain about the tiresome drone during highway travel. How do these people stand it? They're either deaf or so masochistic they're willing to live with the pain for sake of (the tough guy) image (that Harley sells).
>
on a Sunday (so no getting it fixed until the next day), and even though
I put ear-plugs in, I still had a case of tinnitus afterwards.
(PeteCresswell)
Jul 16, 2012, 11:16:30 AM7/16/12
to
Per "Tom $herman (-_-)"
<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">:
me. Mine weren't that loud, but I wanted somebody in an
adjacent car to hear me in case they did not see me. BMW's
didn't seem like a good idea to me at that time.
Being in a tropical climate (most windows down, many
convertibles) might have been a factor.
Dunno if it would help any were I live now: virtually no
convertibles, almost everybody driving with all windows up. If
nothing else, it seems like the ability to sense a noise's
direction gets lost.
--
Pete Cresswell
<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">:
>Worse yet, they moronically repeat the "loud pipes save lives" nonsense.
When I was riding (a loooooong time ago) that seemed logical to
me. Mine weren't that loud, but I wanted somebody in an
adjacent car to hear me in case they did not see me. BMW's
didn't seem like a good idea to me at that time.
Being in a tropical climate (most windows down, many
convertibles) might have been a factor.
Dunno if it would help any were I live now: virtually no
convertibles, almost everybody driving with all windows up. If
nothing else, it seems like the ability to sense a noise's
direction gets lost.
--
Pete Cresswell
datakoll
Jul 16, 2012, 12:50:50 PM7/16/12
to
AND THEY DRESS FUNNY
we saw this prior, an inexplicable attack on IC riders dressing funny.
let those cast the first warp...
HD people do tend to adopt a vest, faded jeans, dangling chains...useless MC garb and nevah seen wearing space suits
very rarely in Nauga even...
what HD rider wears a full helmet ? a Buehler ?
JC Dude, wait'll you fall on that chain....
style uber
we saw this prior, an inexplicable attack on IC riders dressing funny.
let those cast the first warp...
HD people do tend to adopt a vest, faded jeans, dangling chains...useless MC garb and nevah seen wearing space suits
very rarely in Nauga even...
what HD rider wears a full helmet ? a Buehler ?
JC Dude, wait'll you fall on that chain....
style uber
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jul 17, 2012, 12:22:53 AM7/17/12
to
On 7/16/2012 11:50 AM, datakoll wrote:
> AND THEY DRESS FUNNY
>
> we saw this prior, an inexplicable attack on IC riders dressing funny.
>
> let those cast the first warp...
>
> HD people do tend to adopt a vest, faded jeans, dangling chains...useless MC garb and nevah seen wearing space suits
This is my suit:
> AND THEY DRESS FUNNY
>
> we saw this prior, an inexplicable attack on IC riders dressing funny.
>
> let those cast the first warp...
>
> HD people do tend to adopt a vest, faded jeans, dangling chains...useless MC garb and nevah seen wearing space suits
<http://www.aerostich.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/9/297_4a_2.jpg>.
Yeah, I look like a human-banana hybrid wearing it.
> very rarely in Nauga even...
> what HD rider wears a full helmet ? a Buehler ?
>
> JC Dude, wait'll you fall on that chain....
>
> style uber
>
my track leathers.
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