Are 15g alloy nipples thicker than 14g?
RS
14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't have 15g
nipples that I can compare. Just curious.
Chris
If the threads are not cut deeper (they are not), then it should be
pretty moot to weaker as there is less thread to distribute the load
over, making it easier to pull out. Besides, 14g alloy nipples are
easy enough to round off as it is, so a smaller spoke should not make
big different in nipple strength.
But to directly answer your question, I am pretty sure the 15g nipples
I used last were the same spoke wrench as the 14g ones.
Which gives us another thing to argue about on the Internet:
15g nipples are heavier than 14g nipples! OMG!1! Sl0wz0r!
Chris
Chalo
>
> Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
> 14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT?
Yes. All 2.0 and 1.8mm spoke nipples I have ever seen from DT use the
same wrench.
> The inference is that a
> 15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
> alloy nipple.
They are not "stronger" as in able to withstand higher tension or
build a stronger wheel, but they do take noticeably more wrench torque
before rounding off. At least that's the case with brass nipples.
If you must use aluminum nipples, my best advice is to lube them with
moly grease.
Chalo
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
> 14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT?
Yes. Same spoke wrench. Wall thickness is not an issue for chrome
plated brass nipps.
Jay Beattie
They may be stronger in the sense that there is more metal on the
shaft, and it is more difficult to round off the wrench flats, but in
my experience, that just makes it more likely that you will shear off
the top. You can apply more torque to the shaft and get that lathe
action at the head, and then the head pops off with a loud crack.
Lubing probably helps, but I don't like being startled, so I just
don't use them. -- Jay Beattie..
Lou Holtman
> On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 08:14:05 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
> <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>> They may be stronger in the sense that there is more metal on the
>> shaft, and it is more difficult to round off the wrench flats, but in
>> my experience, that just makes it more likely that you will shear off
>> the top. You can apply more torque to the shaft and get that lathe
>> action at the head, and then the head pops off with a loud crack.
>> Lubing probably helps, but I don't like being startled, so I just
>> don't use them. -- Jay Beattie..
>
Weight and some for the color.
Lou
carl...@comcast.net
Dear RS,
A) Maybe the same weights, just different rounding?
One company may call even hefty 14.9 gram spoke nipples "14-gram" to
emphasize the enormous weight savings.
Another company may call even light 14.5 gram spoke nipples "15 grams"
to emphasize how strong they are.
(Or neither company may care about the 1-gram difference, and both
would be astonished to hear that anyone else worries about it.)
B) Exterior dimensions? Longer flats reduce weight.
C) Interior dimensions? Longer unthreaded sections reduce weight.
D) Different alloys? A difference of ~15/14 is ~7%. One company may
use a less dense alloy for that crucial 1-gram difference, while
another prefers a denser but stronger or more corrosion-resistant
alloy.
(Or one stodgy company uses the same tired old alloy that they found
cheap back in the 1900s, while another hip new company uses a cool
cutting-edge alloy that doesn't wear out their tools as fast.)
MatWeb lists ~700 aluminum alloys for the 1xx through 7xxx series.
Aluminum density in grams/cc:
2.71 to 2.70 for 1xxx 0.4%
2.84 to 2.54 for 2xxx 11.8%
2.75 to 2.70 for 3xxx 1.9%
2.92 to 2.50 for 4xxx 16.8%
2.72 to 2.54 for 5xxx 7.1%
2.74 to 2.68 for 6xxx 2.2%
2.90 to 2.72 for 7xxx 6.6%
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
Aaargh!
Sometimes it pays to think before getting lost in minutiae.
I mistook 14g and 15g for grams, not gauge.
Anyone who wants to tease me can use this link in the future:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/52f75ed1131c3ea3
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Carl Sundquist
I would think that hardness of the metal would be a factor in rounding
of the flats, not wall thickness. Even brass nipples get rounded off.
Chalo
>
> I would think that hardness of the metal would be a factor in rounding
> of the flats, not wall thickness. Even brass nipples get rounded off.
In my observation, 14ga brass nipples round before 15ga brass nipples
do. I think this is because the precipitating failure is the inward
crushing of the nipple wall.
When truing a stubborn wheel, I sometimes stop turning a nipple when I
feel it fail but before the wrench slips off the flat. When this
happens, I can observe that the formerly square part of the nipple has
been smashed into a more or less rhomboid cross-section. That's not a
failure of the wrench flat alone, but of the tubular structure of the
spoke nipple.
Chalo
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
All that torque is between spoke nipple and rim, rather than threads.
Therefore, put a drop of oil in each of these interfaces before
turning the wrench. Before beginning to build a new wheel, lubricate
spoke threads, en masse, with 90W hypoid oil to keep spoke twist as
low as possible, especially with swaged spokes.
Jobst Brandt
RS
carl...@comcast.net says...
I appreciate your efforts though you did loose me pretty quickly. Thanks ;)
RS
carl...@comcast.net
>I appreciate your efforts though you did lose me pretty quickly. Thanks ;)
>RS
Dear RS,
You could follow everyone else because they actually understood your
original post and addressed your question.
I baffled you by heading off in an utterly mistaken direction because
I misunderstood what you wrote (which was entirely my own careless
fault).
Thanks for being good-natured about my idiocy.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Chalo
>
> Chalo Colina wrote:
> >
> > When truing a stubborn wheel, I sometimes stop turning a nipple when
> > I feel it fail but before the wrench slips off the flat. When this
> > happens, I can observe that the formerly square part of the nipple
> > has been smashed into a more or less rhomboid cross-section. That's
> > not a failure of the wrench flat alone, but of the tubular structure
> > of the spoke nipple.
>
> All that torque is between spoke nipple and rim, rather than threads.
> Therefore, put a drop of oil in each of these interfaces before
> turning the wrench. Before beginning to build a new wheel, lubricate
> spoke threads, en masse, with 90W hypoid oil to keep spoke twist as
> low as possible, especially with swaged spokes.
I use grease, with a preference for moly grease. I roll the spoke
threads in a dab of grease, and I use a Q-tip to apply it to the rim
holes.
But the times I run into problems with rounding nipples are when
truing wheels that have accumulated corrosion or dirt in the rim
holes. Heavyweight oil might work for this situation, and penetrating
lube definitely would help, but usually I am trying not to make a mess
of a wheel with an installed tire. Typically this is a routine truing
job that surprises me with how hard the nipples must be wrenched
before they'll move.
Chalo
RS
I always appreciate an intelligent effort to provide usefull information even if
you're initial read of my post was not right on point. You're only agenda was
to be helpfull and I appreciate that!
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
I have never seen any bicycle spoke nipples that are neither brass or
aluminum alloy. You must mean Aluminum spoke nipples, but pure
aluminum generally is not found on bicycles. I guess the distinction
arises from carbon and alloy steels, although not a metal, carbon is
also an alloying material. I think the misnomer "alloy" came to us
from England where the term is widely misused.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
sorry, can we only buy d.t. spokes these days??? if not, then it's
butted spokes jobst, not "swaged". swaging is just one method of
achieving butting, the general term for all reduced section spokes.
other methods include drawing [which is not swaging] and grinding [which
is also not swaging]. for an "expert", you appear remarkably ignorant
of basic engineering terminology.
jim beam
> Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
> 14g 12mm alloy nipple.
yes.
> Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
> 15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a 14g.
> alloy nipple.
single loading, maybe. fatigue, to be determined because the internal
threading loads are different, and perhaps more concentrated.
jim beam
> R Schiller wrote:
>
>> Does a 15g 12mm alloy nipple have the same outside dimensions as a
>> 14g 12mm alloy nipple. Specifically by DT? The inference is that a
>> 15g alloy nipple would be stronger because of a thick wall than a
>> 14g. alloy nipple. I've been to a couple of LBS and they don't
>> have 15g nipples that I can compare. Just curious.
>
> I have never seen any bicycle spoke nipples that are neither brass or
> aluminum alloy. You must mean Aluminum spoke nipples, but pure
> aluminum generally is not found on bicycles.
facetious drivel. "alloy", as you well know, especially here on r.b.t
is an abbreviation for "aluminum alloy".
> I guess the distinction
> arises from carbon and alloy steels, although not a metal, carbon is
> also an alloying material.
why jobst? amaze us.
> I think the misnomer "alloy" came to us
> from England where the term is widely misused.
just like you widely misuse the term "steel" when you're referring to
carbon steel, chrome steel, stainless steel, etc.???