Why doesn't Shimano use sealed bearings in hubs?
Michael
bikes exposed to excessive rain and mud. On my wet weather commuting
bike I've used the same sealed bearing for years and at least 5000
miles and the bearings are still pristine; my last set of wheels,
with loose balls, required repacking frequently (several times a year)
when exposed to hard rain. The Ultegra hubs on my road bike require
repacking regularly as well (twice a year I'd say).
2 questions:
1) I notice that Shimano uses only loose balls for both road and mtb
hubs. Why? How do the mtb hubs stand up to creek/river crossings and
tons of mud?
2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil Wood,
Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings. I'm building a disc-brake commuting
bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the significant extra
money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs (vs. the stock XT) for
reliability, uptime and less maintenance. Opinions?
Bluto
> 1) I notice that Shimano uses only loose balls for both road and mtb
> hubs. Why?
Such hubs are cheaper for them to make, and more difficult for others
to copy. More to the point, when Shimano hubs' bearings crap out
entirely, the whole hub must be replaced-- usually, they wager, with
another Shimano hub. Plus, if they're lucky, the
latest-greatest-newest-bestest cassette, derailleur, and shifters too.
> 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil Wood,
> Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings.
It's a no-brainer if you're not planning obsolescence.
> I'm building a disc-brake commuting
> bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the significant extra
> money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs (vs. the stock XT) for
> reliability, uptime and less maintenance. Opinions?
No need to spend big bucks to get that "reliability, uptime, and
performance" plus total bearing replaceability. Sunrace and Formula
both offer cheap hubs that beat Shimano's best. I have heard good
reports about Sunrace's "Juju" hubset, which is available in a disc
version. I have never been let down in the least by a Sunrace sealed
bearing hub, and I recommend them as much better value *and* better
design than Shimano. SRAM hubs are another sealed-bearing option that
is price-competitive with Shimano and quite a bit cheaper than Phil
Wood, Chris King, etc.
Chalo Colina
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I've had great experiences with sealed bearing hubs, especially for
> bikes exposed to excessive rain and mud. On my wet weather
> commuting bike I've used the same sealed bearing for years and at
> least 5000 miles and the bearings are still pristine; my last set of
> wheels, with loose balls, required repacking frequently (several
> times a year) when exposed to hard rain. The Ultegra hubs on my
> road bike require repacking regularly as well (twice a year I'd
> say).
When did you disassemble your sealed bearings last to ascertain that
they were in fact pristine inside? Besides, 5000 miles is about six
months service for active bicyclists. I don't see why you need to
repack the cup and cone bearings every 3000 miles. What is it that
you think needs so much service?
> 2 questions:
> 1) I notice that Shimano uses only loose balls for both road and MTB
> hubs. Why? How do the MTB hubs stand up to creek/river crossings
> and tons of mud?
Bicycle wheel bearings are not designed to be submerged. If you want
that you'll have to get hubs specifically designed to do so. Hubs for
road use are designed for low drag and good splash resistance.
Gravity is intended to keep water out of labyrinth shielded bearings
and it does that excellently.
> 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil
Wood, > Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings. I'm building a disc-brake
commuting > bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the
significant extra > money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs
(vs. the stock XT) for > reliability, uptime and less maintenance.
You may call them "high end", I prefer to call them boutique and high
priced. The sealed bearing folks use radial bearings in an angular
bearing application. If you look at motor vehicles, none of them use
radial bearings for wheel bearings and for good reason. Besides that,
you might read:
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.6.html
This is not a Shimano conspiracy as iconoclast would have you believe.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I've had great experiences with sealed bearing hubs, especially for
> bikes exposed to excessive rain and mud. On my wet weather
> commuting bike I've used the same sealed bearing for years and at
> least 5000 miles and the bearings are still pristine; my last set of
> wheels, with loose balls, required repacking frequently (several
> times a year) when exposed to hard rain. The Ultegra hubs on my
> road bike require repacking regularly as well (twice a year I'd
> say).
When did you disassemble your sealed bearings last to ascertain that
they were in fact pristine inside? Besides, 5000 miles is about six
months service for active bicyclists. I don't see why you need to
repack the cup and cone bearings every 3000 miles. What is it that
you think needs so much service?
> 2 questions:
> 1) I notice that Shimano uses only loose balls for both road and MTB
> hubs. Why? How do the MTB hubs stand up to creek/river crossings
> and tons of mud?
Bicycle wheel bearings are not designed to be submerged. If you want
that you'll have to get hubs specifically designed to do so. Hubs for
road use are designed for low drag and good splash resistance.
Gravity is intended to keep water out of labyrinth shielded bearings
and it does that excellently.
> 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil
Wood, > Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings. I'm building a disc-brake
commuting > bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the
significant extra > money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs
(vs. the stock XT) for > reliability, uptime and less maintenance.
You may call them "high end", I prefer to call them boutique and high
priced. The sealed bearing folks use radial bearings in an angular
bearing application. If you look at motor vehicles, none of them use
radial bearings for wheel bearings and for good reason. Besides that,
you might read:
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.6.html
This is not a Shimano conspiracy as iconoclasts would have you believe.
BillX
50,000 miles on them and they are still running smoothly. These wheels were
made back in 88 so I'd expect newer sealed hubs to be superior.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote in message ...
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I have a set of wheels with Specialized sealed bearings that have
> more than 50,000 miles on them and they are still running smoothly.
> These wheels were made back in 88 so I'd expect newer sealed hubs to
> be superior.
Do you know whether these are angular contact or standard OEM ball
bearings. Shimano uses sealed angular contact bearings in their head
sets and they last a long time as well.
Jay Beattie
"BillX" <ibru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b74v50$k5b$1...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> I have a set of wheels with Specialized sealed bearings that have more
than
> 50,000 miles on them and they are still running smoothly. These
wheels were
> made back in 88 so I'd expect newer sealed hubs to be superior.
I think these were made by Sanshin. I had a pair that needed bearing
replacement after about a year of riding in the rain. My Phil's also had
problems with the lubricant washing out in the rain, and neither hub
sealed as well as the current Ultegra hubs -- which I ride frequently in
the rain and rarely overhaul. Cartridge bearing hubs such as the new
Phil hubs can be lubricated by merely lifting the seal and do not
require bearing removal and adjustment. This is a big plus, but they
are no more water resistant than Shimano hubs IMO. BTW, I rebuilt a pair
of Shimano 737 pedals a while back that had not been opened for maybe
three years, and the grease was practically pristine. They have amazing
seals or else do not get much spray. -- Jay Beattie.
David L. Johnson
> 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil Wood,
> Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings.
Ah, the power of a name. To call cartridge bearings "sealed" suggests
that they are impervious to water intrusion. This is not the case. They
may be better sealed than most road hubs, but probably not better sealed
than typical cup and cone mountain hubs. Also, once the water gets into
your "sealed" bearings, you have to pray that replacements are 1)
possible, and 2) available. No, thanks. It's one thing for a bottom
bracket, which you can easily replace for $20. But replacing a hub at the
minimum means re-building a wheel.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win you're
_`\(,_ | still a rat. --Lilly Tomlin
(_)/ (_) |
Dave Mayer
are asking why Shimano does not use cartridge bearings in their hubs.
Shimano's better hubs use 'cup and cone' bearings protected with double
seals.
The reason why Shimano uses cup and cone bearings is that this design is
superior, and because they can afford to. Only the largest and most
technically capable manufacturers (Shimano and Campagnolo) can make this
happen. Only they have the economies of scale to justify the tooling for
the custom hub parts, particularly in the case of forged bearing cones. The
small fry and boutique manufacturers are restricted to cartridge bearings
because this design involves fewer, more standardized and cheaper parts.
Combine this with cheap CNC alloy shells, and you'll end up with a hub that
is:
- Weaker, resulting in flange failure and spoke pull-out,
- are harder to re-lube,
- are more susceptible to water intrusion due to seal wicking,
- come with expensive bearings that are a pain to remove,
- the cartridge bearings become loose and damage their seats in the hub
shells,
- the cartridge bearings often become corroded and welded into the hub
shells,
- the bearings are easily damaged by side loading.
My STX-RC hubs will outlast any cartridge bearing hubs. My unsealed 1972
Campagnolo Record road hubs are on their fourth pair of rims. Original
cones.
"Michael" <michae...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:24786a0f.03041...@posting.google.com...
Steve Shapiro
the not-disk version. Besides all the comments above, the Shimano
patented design places the bearing for the right rear axle within the
cassette shell. So, the unsupported length of this more vulnerable
side of the axle is short. It won't bend. Also, the flanges are
beefy with the right hand flange actually slightly thicker then the
left so the spokes are well seated.
The Shimano seals are fine. The front has rubber on both sides.
There is slight drag, but the seal is as close to waterproof as you
can get. The rear has rubber on the left and a labyrinth seal on the
right. So, you can hose down the bike after a muddy ride without too
much worry.
The only problems I have with Shimano are minor. IMHO, the hubs do
not have enough grease from the factory and the bearings are adjusted
way too tightly. So, I open ‘em up, shoot in some more grease, close
‘em and adjust to take the QR forces into account. After adjustment,
the bearings are as silky smooth as anything I've tried.
By the way, I don't think there is anything wrong with the lower end
Shimano hubs either: DX or Alivio. Just the detailing and finish of
the XT line is nicer and the bearings feel a bit smoother for what
it's worth.
Boutique hubs may be prettier, but I do not think they give value.
Steve
Per Löwdin
> tons of mud?
The XT lose balls gets corroded. Had to change mine after a season of wet
riding. The XTR hubs have stainless steel lose balls that don´t get
corroded. Excellent hubs. Last forever. Use them for travelling. Only Chris
King are better. They cost more but, apart from that they are far more sexy,
the only really significant difference is in the ratcheting mechanism, they
answer more rapidly. If you are ratcheting through rock gardens etc it makes
a noticeable difference. King also has a friendly customer service. I have
two sets of wheels with King hubs and when I have had questions or needed a
spare part King has been great. Somthing that you can´t say about Big S.
> 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil Wood,
> Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings. I'm building a disc-brake commuting
> bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the significant extra
> money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs (vs. the stock XT) for
> reliability, uptime and less maintenance. Opinions?
King or XTR will last for ages. On the other hand it requires that you can
store the bike in a safe place or you will get very sorry. For commuting I
would probably bet on something cheaper and less likely to be stolen if left
unguarded.
Per
http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/fu99/MTB.html
Paul Kopit
wrote:
>I have had questions or needed a
>spare part King has been great. Somthing that you can´t say about Big S.
I can say that about Shimano. They are quite responsive when I call
their tech in CA.
Per Löwdin
> their tech in CA.
To be fair I never had any problem with them though in Sweden Shimano is not
accessible for end users you go through a LBS and so far they have always
had spares even axels to 747s delivered the next day to the LBS. On the
other hand King is exceptionally friendly, just recently they sent me an
axle end and hub cone across the Atlantic without charging me anything for
it. You might say they should be service minded with their prices, and have
a point.
My XTR hubs are excellent, only problem is the plastic "cup" on the left
side that can get loose, it is fixed in a sec when it happens which is
really rare. On the other hand I have had some Shimano stuff that I have
been less then happy with: rusting balls in my XT hubs, rattly construction
of the XT front deraileur, shifters that can´t be serviced, and a
Microsoftish ambition to ensnare you by lack of compability with other
brands. There is some splendid Shimano stuff, particularly XTR, and I am
glad that they exist, but some stuff they churn out is of poor quality.
Whereas every King part is top notch.
Per
http://user.tninet.se/~ipg289h/fu99/MTB.html
Bluto
> Also, once the water gets into
> your "sealed" bearings, you have to pray that replacements are 1)
> possible, and 2) available. No, thanks. It's one thing for a bottom
> bracket, which you can easily replace for $20. But replacing a hub at the
> minimum means re-building a wheel.
Which is why buying a hub with non-replaceable bearing races is a
fool's game.
Common metric bearing cartridges used in bicycle hubs (e.g. 6200,
6001, 6902 etc.) will be readily available long after Shimano has
ceased supporting their latest proprietary junk-- even after Shimano
has passed into history. They are cheaper and easier to replace than
most halfway-decent hub cones to boot. And unlike Shimano's junk,
they are provided with plenty of grease and proper internal clearances
from the factory.
To top it off, in all my years of working and playing with bikes, I
have never seen one of the oft-referenced cartridge bearing hubs that
can't be rebuilt. If such a thing exists, I'm guessing that most of
the folks who talk about them have never seen one either.
I won't begrudge anybody their right to buy as inferior a product as
they please, though.
Chalo Colina
Bluto
>
> The reason why Shimano uses cup and cone bearings is that this design is
> superior,
Then why do no other industries, no matter how well-heeled, use such
an archaic bearing design? Aircraft and spacecraft use sealed
cartridge bearings, you know.
> The
> small fry and boutique manufacturers are restricted to cartridge bearings
> because this design involves fewer, more standardized and cheaper parts.
Sounds like a summary of good engineering design to me, not some
"restriction". In case you haven't noticed, the cheapest and most
horrible hubs are all without exception cup & cone. I guess some
"small fry" manufacturers *can* afford this esoteric and wondrous
technology.
> Combine this with cheap CNC alloy shells, and you'll end up with a hub that
> is:
> - Weaker, resulting in flange failure and spoke pull-out,
I've had more flange failures on Campy hubs than all others combined.
> - are harder to re-lube,
The easiest-to-lube hubs ever made, Suntour/WTB Grease Guard, used
industrially standard cartridge bearings.
> - are more susceptible to water intrusion due to seal wicking,
Usually the cartridge bearing's own seals are more than adequate, but
many cartridge bearing hubs use additional design-specific seals--
which are the only kind cup & cone hubs ever have.
> - come with expensive bearings that are a pain to remove,
You just said they were cheaper, now you call them expensive. Which
is it? Actually, try this: Flip open your trusty QBP catalog and
price a 6001 cartridge bearing (the whole bearing) against a Shimano
Dura Ace or Ultegra rear cone (just the inner race of a bearing).
Which costs *a lot* more? Note that the bearing surface finish on
these pricey cones is not as fine as even a cheap Korean or
Singaporean bearing cartridge.
At their worst, cartridge bearings are no more difficult to remove or
install than headset cups-- which do not seem to intimidate bike
mechanics.
> the cartridge bearings become loose and damage their seats in the hub
> shells,
Never seen it in a bicycle hub, motorcycle hub, or any other kind of
hub. I'm willing to guess you haven't seen it either.
> - the cartridge bearings often become corroded and welded into the hub
> shells,
Hogwash. Press fits don't do this.
> - the bearings are easily damaged by side loading.
True. But much more likely to occur with cup & cone hubs, which are
easily and quite frequently overtightened. The best cartridge bearing
hubs have no axial bearing adjustment and so cannot be axially
preloaded in excess of their specification.
If you rather mean side loading from riding forces, you are simply
wrong.
> My STX-RC hubs will outlast any cartridge bearing hubs.
You mean they _might_, with proper maintenance, outlast the
_cartridges_ in a set of cartridge bearing hubs. After which they'll
be toast while the others can just get new cartridges.
You seem to have imagined all manner of foibles that cartridge
bearings in general, and cartridge bearing hubs in particular, don't
actually have. I wonder where you found such misinformation and why
you have chosen to propagate it?
Chalo Colina
Bruce Jackson
> Which is why buying a hub with non-replaceable bearing races is a
> fool's game.
I have cup and cone bearing hubs over 20 years old with original
races that are as smooth as they day they were purchased. The
cups are technically replaceable but in well maintained hubs they
just never fail.
> Common metric bearing cartridges used in bicycle hubs (e.g. 6200,
> 6001, 6902 etc.) will be readily available long after Shimano has
> ceased supporting their latest proprietary junk-- even after Shimano
> has passed into history. They are cheaper and easier to replace than
> most halfway-decent hub cones to boot. And unlike Shimano's junk,
> they are provided with plenty of grease and proper internal clearances
> from the factory.
Who knows what the future holds. I built up a bunch of freewheels
when I worked in bike shops and am now just getting down to my last
few so I'm now switching to freehubs. All of my old rear hubs have
already outlived their usefullness. I agree that durable gear is
desireable but now that Shimano has captured the high end market
we are not going to be able to ride parts for decides as was the
practice when Campagnolo and SunTour were the market leaders.
> To top it off, in all my years of working and playing with bikes, I
> have never seen one of the oft-referenced cartridge bearing hubs that
> can't be rebuilt. If such a thing exists, I'm guessing that most of
> the folks who talk about them have never seen one either.
The old Phil Wood hubs were rather difficult to service without an
arbor press. Of course in the old days Phil didn't charge anyone
to service their hubs. Every hub I used to send in for service
came back with new bearings and an invoice said "no charge" and
"have a nice day." I always admired the company for doing that but
wondered the wisdom of making hubs difficult to service while
providing the service free of charge. It worked out nice for us
but if the hub needed service in the middle of a tour sending the
hub back to Phil even for free service wouldn't be practical.
Ironically it was tourists who were most enamored with Phil hubs.
The servicibility issue was why I always favored Durham Bullseye
hubs over Phil. Now I understand Phil makes their hubs user
servisible and as far as I know Bullseye is out of business.
> I won't begrudge anybody their right to buy as inferior a product as
> they please, though.
Certainly cup and cone bearing hubs work great, cartridge bearing
hubs work great. The only advantage I see to cartridge bearings
are easier (depending on the hub) and less frequent servicing.
Bruce
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company
A Muzi
> > tons of mud?
"Per Löwdin" <Perl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vpCla.5555$Du.1...@newsc.telia.net...
> The XT lose balls gets corroded. Had to change mine after a season of wet
> riding. The XTR hubs have stainless steel lose balls that don´t get
> corroded.
-snip-
If you are experiencing enough water in the hub to rust a ball bearing,
you've already turned your lubricant into a grease-oil emulsion that isn't a
very effective lubricant. I should think that using stainless balls, while
nice-sounding, doesn't address the actual problem which is degradation of
lubricant.
Wouldn't you expect accelerated wear on the bearing surfaces at that point?
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
Dave Mayer
hubs:
Specialized rear hub made by Sansin. These are fairly well sealed but water
must of got into them. One of the cartridges was shot, and it had corroded
into the hub shell and the retainer that holds it onto the axle. I managed
to pull the axle free using a hammer, but the cartridge was irreversibly
stuck in the hub.
Suntour Superbe Pro. In the 80's Suntour made the best cup and cone hubs
ever made. I have 2 sets of wheels based on these hubs, which are still
running fine. About 1990 they switched over to cartridge bearings,
presumably because they were in financial trouble, and could no longer pay
for custom machined parts. One my 1992 hubs took a side blow (glancing off
of a curb perhaps) and the cartridge bearing ovalized the inside of the
shell. This caused play between the hub and the bearing. I epoxied the
cartridge into place, but I had to throw the wheel away a year later.
Tioga: easy to replace cartridge bearings? Right. After going through
half a dozen shops, I find a shop that has and is willing to sell a pair of
6001 cartridges. The attitude I get is that "our shop does not stock these
because if a bottom bracket or a hub wears out you just throw it away and
buy something new, right?" The cartridges cost hub manufacturers maybe a
buck each, the shop a few bucks, and they cost me $25 for the pair. Plus
they insist that they install, at an extra cost. Try and get cartridges
from wholesalers and they may be interested in dealing with you - if you
order a few dozen.
Hope and Hugi. I have these too. I'm going to run these until the bearings
die, and then try and sell them. In contrast to the ease of servicing
Shimano's bearing assembly, I cannot figure out how to pull the cartridges
out of these.
B a r r y B u r k e J r .
>
Try and get cartridges
> from wholesalers and they may be interested in dealing with you - if you
> order a few dozen.
>
Try a bearing retailer or industrial supplier like bocabearing.com,
McMasters.com or grainger.com.
I buy replacement bearings for cup and cone stuff from these guys too.
>
> > 2 questions:
> >
> > 1) I notice that Shimano uses only loose balls for both road and mtb
> > hubs. Why? How do the mtb hubs stand up to creek/river crossings and
> > tons of mud?
In my experience, they stand up well. If the hubs are properly lubed
and adjusted when new, they reject mud, snow, and water very well. In
fact, I rarely touch my XT and Ultegra hubs, simply repacking once a
year. I find roof racks, with some bicycles moving @ 70 mph in the
rain, to be more damaging than any actual riding. Even in badly
maintained hubs, I've never had to do more than toss in new balls,
repack, and go.
> > 2) I also notice that most high-end aftermarket hubs (WTB, Phil Wood,
> > Hope, etc.) use sealed bearings. I'm building a disc-brake commuting
> > bike and am trying to decide whether to spend the significant extra
> > money (at least $200 more) on aftermarket hubs (vs. the stock XT) for
> > reliability, uptime and less maintenance. Opinions?
Go with the XT and save the cash. "Sealed" bearings aren't airtight.
They can and will still fail, and can sometimes have side play that
cannot be adjusted out. The bearing is completely replaced, rather than
rebuilt when trouble develops. I have cartridge bearings in my new
tubeless Crossmaxes, and can't see the real advantage.
Barry
Alex Rodriguez
chump...@hotmail.com says...
>To top it off, in all my years of working and playing with bikes, I
>have never seen one of the oft-referenced cartridge bearing hubs that
>can't be rebuilt. If such a thing exists, I'm guessing that most of
>the folks who talk about them have never seen one either.
A few years back I bought some Nashbar brand sealed bearing hubs that
could not be rebuilt. Not common, but they do exist.
--------------
Alex
Bluto
> chump...@hotmail.com says...
>
> >To top it off, in all my years of working and playing with bikes, I
> >have never seen one of the oft-referenced cartridge bearing hubs that
> >can't be rebuilt.
>
> A few years back I bought some Nashbar brand sealed bearing hubs that
> could not be rebuilt. Not common, but they do exist.
I wonder how the bearings were seated so as not to be removable?
The worst I've seen to date are Hi-E hubs, which have the bearings
pressed in from the _inside_ of the flange. This means you must
unlace the wheel and extract the flanges in order to swap bearings.
It's truly a design for someone who loves to build wheels and monkey
around with press fits. For most people such a hub may as well be
disposable.
Chalo Colina
Juan Di Minico
Tom Kunich
I don't like disk brakes because I ride off-road on street or CX bikes with narrow tires. Disk brakes are far too powerful for that setup and I have the scars to prove it.
Most of the people arguing with him about sealed bearings don't understand that the dirt found inside of cup and cone bears appears in sealed bearings and from the same source - wear of the steel against steel surfaces that always occurs despite lubrication. So a sealed bearing which are not truly sealed (As Jobst points out they are labyrinthine seals) and true sealed bearings all have about the same lifespan on a bike under normal conditions.
Stick around, the place needs all the new faces it can get. Ignore the petty arguments since they are almost entirely from non-riders telling us all about what great cyclists they are.
Luns Tee
> One of the people you should pay particular attention to is the late Jobst Brandt. He was a mechanical engineer who worked for Hewlitt-Packard. He was usually the best source of information around. Note that in his first reply,, he said that he was building a disk brake bike and that was in 2003.
-Luns
Sir Ridesalot
Cheers
Tom Kunich
Tom Kunich
Jeff Liebermann
can be fun, but it's usually a waste of everyone's time.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Frank Krygowski
>
> The entire idea of this group is to store information infinitely.
And in your case, it would instead be misinformation, wouldn't it?
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
intemperately from time to time, 'permanent written record'
isn't necessarily a 'feature'.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Tom Kunich
> On 9/1/2022 10:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 4:26:29 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> The entire idea of this group is to store information infinitely.
> >
> > That's certainly not the _entire_ idea of this group.
> >
> > And in your case, it would instead be misinformation, wouldn't it?
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> For those of us who have made errors and have behaved
> intemperately from time to time, 'permanent written record'
> isn't necessarily a 'feature'.
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Frank's entire life has been intemperate. If he accidently dropped his bike from the Brooklyn Bridge he would pretend he did it on purpose.
--
- Frank Krygowski
ritzann...@gmail.com
Jeff Liebermann
Suicide Prevention Net installed:
<https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/suicide-deterrent-net/>
<https://www.goldengate.org/district/district-projects/suicide-deterrent-net/how-the-net-works/>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=golden+gate+bridge+suicide+net&tbm=isch>
The net is designed to discourage people from jumping off the bridge,
but will work equally well to discourage people from throwing bicycles
off the bridge.
However, the Brooklyn Bridge does not have such a net, making it more
suitable for Tom's bicycle dropping example.
Luns Tee
-Luns
Tom Kunich
So what does that have to do with Jobst not making his normal comments about things he didn't like? If he didn't make the original comment so what? He ALWAYS responded negatively to things he didn't like. I'm probably the only one on this groups that actually rode with Jobst. His bike looked like something from the early 70's. He was only an inch taller than me and his bike was 4 cm larger than I would normally ride. While I am just commenting on that, Jobst would have taken it as a deadly insult. As if I were criticizing his judgement on bike sizes. That is one of the reasons I stopped riding with him.
ritzann...@gmail.com
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 4:01:49 PM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:25:15 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 10:46:48 AM UTC-7, Luns Tee wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 6:36:00 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > One of the people you should pay particular attention to is the late Jobst Brandt. He was a mechanical engineer who worked for Hewlitt-Packard. He was usually the best source of information around. Note that in his first reply,, he said that he was building a disk brake bike and that was in 2003.
> > > > Nowhere in his reply did Jobst say that he was building a disk brake bike. Please don't put words in his mouth, especially given he's no longer here to defend himself.
> > > Correct, it was Michael Press who made that comment but it was 19 years ago. So disk brakes as much as I don't like them have been around a lot longer than I thought. But Jobst didn't make his usual snide remarks about things he didn't care for.
> > The discussion being 19 years ago is no excuse. There was no need to sift through two decades of postings, the relevant material was literally there before your eyes. I will leave it up to you what conclusions people can draw about your credibility when you don't do even the most basic of fact checking, checking that what you wrote is consistent with material already at hand, and then try to dismiss it as unimportant rather than of simply owning up to making a mistake.
> Luns, I don't see the connection between the comment about disk brakes and what your response was. Disk brakes have been around for 19 years obviously.
I am also well aware that if you change from rim brakes to disc brakes, you also have to change your hubs to accommodate discs. But many companies make rim and disc brake hubs with either loose ball or sealed bearings. Your choice.
funkma...@hotmail.com
Jeff Liebermann
Dec 26, 2005
<https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/oKoXRwKO/tom-kunich-is-a-ass#post9>
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Bdcrb3q1i9w/m/Wd8AycPkw1AJ>
"Kunich bore the flame of flaming writers on just about any subject
with no useful contribution to the thread except attempting to
belittle the previous writer."
Comment by Tom Kunich 16 years later:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/i5zHVrFgnyc/m/LDH5tz2vBAAJ
May 24, 2021, 8:02:04 AM
"I have no memory of him and I did some of Jobst's rides until we had
an almost violent disagreement with his lackadaisical care for the
safety of the people riding with him. None of his rides bothered me
though I was off the back most of the time but a LOT of his hanger's
on crashed and sometimes violently."