Durable road wheels?
waterr...@gmail.com
(shimano compatible)?
Would I be better off building my own 3-cross bent-spoke wheels, or
buying some of the boutique wheels like entry-level mavic ksyriums or
the like? Or can I find some straight-pull hubs and build up a set of
those? (I can't locate any for sale online).
In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
spokes and brass nipples.
The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh
185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
very tough on rear wheels.
They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.
My front wheels last about 5 years before a spoke breaks at a bend, so
I'm just worried about the rear.
I'm proabably just a mediocre wheelbuilder. I don't use a tensiometer,
but pluck and listen for consistent tone instead. I maintain them
reasonably well, but only mess with them when I hear, see, or feel a
problem -- I'm lazy in this respect. I use three-cross both sides,
front and back (Shimano says radial is a no-no, and I couldn't care
less about the grams).
Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.
So, I was thinking that straight-pull might be the way to go, but I
understand that they often just fail at the spoke head. It seems like
mavic ksyriums last people a really long time, but I don't know anyone
who rides the same gear as long as I do. I'm on only my 2nd road bike,
for instance, expecting to get 10 years out of a frame.
Any recommendations?
Thanks for reading all this,
Mike
Ron Ruff
> What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
> (shimano compatible)?
>
> built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
> then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
> current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
> spokes and brass nipples.
>
Those can be had for <$200 online with Ultegra hubs... much cheaper
than buying the parts. Then a little "tuning" by you... ie stress
relieving and tension adjustment. I like to put lots of marine grease
in the hubs, too.
BTW... using a heavier rim than the Open Pro on the back should help.
> The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months.
>
> They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
> eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.
>
A broken spoke is no big deal after 18 months (12,000 miles?)... just
replace it. Even with a perfectly built wheel you can have a
"defective" spoke.
I don't know of anybody on boutique wheels who has ridden that many
miles without incident! But... maybe we will hear from some?
maxo
them up? Might help those spokes to get properly seated. ;)
I'd go for traditional wheels as the previous poster recommended. Throw
a 36 spoker back there if you're not a weight weenie.
Even though I run Mavics yet again, as the sales are too tempting--I've
heard lots of good stuff about other basic rims like Velocity and Sun.
I've even had a set of Alex rims that went years without a
touch-up--even though many grumble about them. Next time I build a set
for bumping around town, it's going to be plain jane Sun silver CR-18s.
Cheaper than dirt. :P
res09c5t
rear. I know Velocity makes them and there may be other manufacturers. If
you're not familiar with them, they have an offset in them that evens out
the spoke lengths while leaving the tire centered, thus offsetting most of
the problems with dishing the wheel (the lower tension on the non-drive
side). If you are actually putting load on both sides of the rear spokes,
that would have to strengthen them a lot.
Lyle
<waterr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134791047.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Art Harris
> I have nearly always built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub, then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14 spokes and brass nipples.
> The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh 185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
How many spokes in these wheels? If less than 36, consider upgrading to
36. When you say the wheels only last 18 months, do you mean they are
not repairable? Please elaborate.
You say the spokes break at the DS spoke bend.
Three suggestions:
1) Make sure you don't have the long elbow DT spokes that were around a
few years ago.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm
2) Press the outbound spokes so they lay flat against the hub flange
before tensioning (as described in The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt).
3) Make sure you stress relieve the wheels.
I would certainly stay away from boutique wheels. Convertional handmade
wheels built with skill and good materials should last you a long time.
The quality of "shop built" wheels will depend on the shop.
Art Harris
waterr...@gmail.com
Art Harris wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> How many spokes in these wheels? If less than 36, consider upgrading to
> 36. When you say the wheels only last 18 months, do you mean they are
> not repairable? Please elaborate.
Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm running 32s, I've only ever had
36s on my MTBs. I guess I should bump that up. It seems logical -- I
guess I've always bought pairs of hubs that are 32 each.
Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the
last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen
around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.
>
> You say the spokes break at the DS spoke bend.
>
> Three suggestions:
>
> 1) Make sure you don't have the long elbow DT spokes that were around a
> few years ago.
> http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm
Yeah, that's not it. Good info though.
> 2) Press the outbound spokes so they lay flat against the hub flange
> before tensioning (as described in The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt).
Yep.
> 3) Make sure you stress relieve the wheels.
Yep.
> I would certainly stay away from boutique wheels.
That seems to be the concensus in this thread.
Thanks everyone for the responses so far.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
> What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
> (shimano compatible)?
>
> Would I be better off building my own 3-cross bent-spoke wheels, or
> buying some of the boutique wheels like entry-level mavic ksyriums or
> the like? Or can I find some straight-pull hubs and build up a set of
> those? (I can't locate any for sale online).
Straight pull spokes are not going to fix your 'problem', proper
wheelbuilding will.
Invest in a tensionometer and make sure you stress relieve well. Also
do a 36h rear, build well with good components. Since you buiold your
own, ultegra hubs, 14/15 DT spokes, a Velocity Fusion rim...36/3 cross
rear. NO wheel oputta a box will work as well as a well made handbuilt.
Crappy hubs(particularly the rear of Mavic wheels) and more money.
We sell none but do a brisk business manitaining these Ksyriums. Rear
hub, rim, truing maintanance..for $800+, not sure what anybody is
getting.
Tim McNamara
>> The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I
>> weigh 185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in
>> Austin. This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26%
>> (the steep parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14%
>> for 300 feet of elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest
>> rider around, but I am very tough on rear wheels.
But perhaps not as tough as someone doing, for example, loaded
touring. Although on those steep hills, your rear wheel is bearing a
lot of weight. I imagine you chew through rear tires pretty quickly
as well.
I'm 210-220 lbs and have broken only one spoke in probably 8-9 years
of riding 6000-7000 mile a year (racing, touring, JRA and brevets),
and that one broke under braking at the start of the threads.
>> They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
>> eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.
Sounds like you need to stress-relieve your spokes. Get a copy of
_The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt, which will explain the procedure
and rationale in detail. And of course, read the inevitable
"rebuttal" from jim beam which will be posted shortly, since Jobst's
name is like bacon to a bear for jim.
dusto...@mac.com
waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
> [I]do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
> This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
> parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
> elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
> very tough on rear wheels.
Ladera Norte, 26%? Where does this figure come from, please? (I could
start feeling better about life here..)
> Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
> than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.
Which shop(s) are you using to build for you? Some offer a "free first
tuneup" (within a couple of hundred miles) on wheels they build. Have
you used this option? Some posters here will say that tuneup is an
admission of poor wheelbuilding, but it might be just the ticket for
you.
IME (I used to race at about your weight), using 36h wheels will help.
The 32 thing, didn't that come from reading magazines about 142lb Euro
pros? --D-y
Art Harris
> Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.
Only a few possible reasons for multiple spoke breakage like that: Bad
batch of spokes, lack of proper stress relieving, or excess/uneven
spoke tension. You want the right side spokes to be just tight enough
so that the left side spokes don't go slack. One trick is to use
lighter gauge spokes on the left (e.g., 15-16-15) so that they will be
less likely to go slack for a given tension.
Art Harris
Michael Press
<1134800654.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"maxo" <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
And still available in 27 inch! (630)
--
Michael Press
Qui si parla Campagnolo
I think another thing to mention is when a rim becomes deformed, either
thru low tension or wacking something, that spot on the wheel the
tension becomes low and breaking a spoke there is not uncommon. I think
he is seeing the results of too light of a rim, too low of tension, too
few spokes.
waterr...@gmail.com
Tim McNamara wrote:
> I imagine you chew through rear tires pretty quickly
> as well.
Yep. 4-to-1 rear replacement rate vs. front :P
> I'm 210-220 lbs and have broken only one spoke in probably 8-9 years
> of riding 6000-7000 mile a year (racing, touring, JRA and brevets),
> and that one broke under braking at the start of the threads.
>
> >> They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
> >> eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.
>
> Sounds like you need to stress-relieve your spokes. Get a copy of
> _The Bicycle Wheel_ by Jobst Brandt, which will explain the procedure
> and rationale in detail. And of course, read the inevitable
> "rebuttal" from jim beam which will be posted shortly, since Jobst's
> name is like bacon to a bear for jim.
Yeah, I've probably not stress relieved well enough in the past. I also
haven't yet invested in Jobst's book. I ought to if I'm going to stick
out this wheelbuilding thing. Pretty silly. I've probably built 10
wheels (road and MTB) and never read it. Come to think of it, I just
got a 30% coupon for Borders...
waterr...@gmail.com
dusto...@mac.com wrote:
> waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ladera Norte, 26%? Where does this figure come from, please? (I could
> start feeling better about life here..)
That's from measuring the distances and elevations using Google Earth.
I have a spreadsheet that takes start and end elevation, and distance,
converts to rise and run and gives a % grade.
The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
stop sign). Crazy huh?
You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...
> Which shop(s) are you using to build for you? Only from new bike purchases. Most recent was Excel Sports when I ordered my Ritchey Road Logic (my current bike, and I love it to death). Previously, I had a Bridgestone RB-1, and I had bought a pair of wheels from Colorado Cyclist for it.
> IME (I used to race at about your weight), using 36h wheels will help.
Yeah, it seems the right way to go.
Thanks,
Mike
waterr...@gmail.com
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Invest in a tensionometer and make sure you stress relieve well. Also
> do a 36h rear, build well with good components. Since you buiold your
> own, ultegra hubs, 14/15 DT spokes, a Velocity Fusion rim...36/3 cross
> rear
Well, looking at the Fusions, there are no eyelets. Every rear rim I've
had without eyelets has failed at the spoke hole. I'm sure I wasn't
maintaining the wheel properly, but I'll happily take the added weight
for peace of mind here.
Tim McNamara
> I think another thing to mention is when a rim becomes deformed,
> either thru low tension or wacking something, that spot on the wheel
> the tension becomes low and breaking a spoke there is not
> uncommon. I think he is seeing the results of too light of a rim,
> too low of tension, too few spokes.
Well, he said:
In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace
hub, then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever
was current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith
14-15-14 spokes and brass nipples.
So I'd doubt that the rim is too light, and he's made good choices in
hubs, spokes and nipples. He didn't say how many spokes, but 32 is
pretty common. So the candidates for the cause are fairly limited:
overall spoke tension too low, spoke tension on just one or two spokes
too low, or lack of stress relieving.
In any event, he should still read _The Bicycle Wheel_ and try higher
tension and stress relieving.
maxo
And in 26x 1 3/8--I've thought about putting them on momma's old German
single speed.
dusto...@mac.com
waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
> The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
> the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
> stop sign). Crazy huh?
>
> You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
> that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...
Well, like I said, I can feel better about life now <g>.
I think I climbed Smokey, slowly, once by bike. It's hard on motor
vehicles, too.
--D-y
waterr...@gmail.com
I'm glad I could help :)
Yeah, it's amazing to see how many more oil stains there are on Smokey
Valley. The cars are at such freak angles that the oil is resting on
gaskets overnight. I've slipped my rear a couple times on the oil.
-Mike
waterr...@gmail.com
I thought you wanted pretty high tension on the drive side. I really do
need to read TBW. I've been greasing nipples and threads and getting
things pretty tight. Not crazy tight, but certainly beyond what you
describe.
Art Harris
> > > Usually I rebuild the wheel after the third spoke break because the last two usually occur pretty close together. That seems to happen around 18 months, with the first spoke break around 15 months.
> > Only a few possible reasons for multiple spoke breakage like that: Bad
> > batch of spokes, lack of proper stress relieving, or excess/uneven
> > spoke tension. You want the right side spokes to be just tight enough
> > so that the left side spokes don't go slack. One trick is to use
> > lighter gauge spokes on the left (e.g., 15-16-15) so that they will be
> > less likely to go slack for a given tension.
> I thought you wanted pretty high tension on the drive side. I really do
> need to read TBW. I've been greasing nipples and threads and getting
> things pretty tight. Not crazy tight, but certainly beyond what you
> describe.
They DO need to be "prety tight" to prevent the left side spokes from
going slack when riding over bumps and pot holes. But there's no
advantage to making them any tighter than that. With most 9/10 speed
wheels, the spoke tension on the right is about twice that on the left.
If you're pulling out eyelets, and breaking a lot of spokes, there's a
good chance the spokes are tighter than they need to be. Excess spoke
tension combined with residual stress in the elbow will increase
fatigue failure. A tensiometer is only way to determine actual
tension.
Art Harris
Qui si parla Campagnolo
No added weight for eyelets since they use a lighter, thinner walled
rim. I have built 'a lot' of Fusions and Aeroheads, hundreds and have
not had this problem of spokes pulling thru.
But as I mentioned, I think stress relieving, 36h, proper tension will
help with your issues.
Yonatan Mazuz
> Michael Press wrote:
>> "maxo" <land...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Next time I build a set
>>> for bumping around town, it's going to be plain jane Sun silver CR-18s.
>>> Cheaper than dirt. :P
>>
>> And still available in 27 inch! (630)
>>
> single speed.
I thought about using these and turning my 3-speed with coaster brake
to a 7-speed with coaster, but it didn't seem worth it on the
ghastly-heavy frame.
Interesting to know that somebody else _thought about_ using 26 x 1 3/8
rims in aluminum. What's a real mystery is whether anyone else actually
goes through with it and buys the things.
--
-------
Yoni Mazuz
(there isn't actually poop in my e-mail address)
Jim Weeks
<waterr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134861074.1...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> dusto...@mac.com wrote:
>> waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Ladera Norte, 26%? Where does this figure come from, please? (I could
>> start feeling better about life here..)
>
> That's from measuring the distances and elevations using Google Earth.
> I have a spreadsheet that takes start and end elevation, and distance,
> converts to rise and run and gives a % grade.
>
> The two steep sections of LDN are 26% (the one at the bottom, before
> the Backtrail intersection, and the one at the top, approaching the
> stop sign). Crazy huh?
>
> You tried Smokey Valley near the bottom of LDN? I need to find out what
> that peaks out at with GEarth, but it's steeper than LDN at its top...
>
So how do Jester and the bottom section of BigView Dr in Riverplace compare?
those are a couple of beasts..
jpw
waterr...@gmail.com
Jim Weeks wrote:
> So how do Jester and the bottom section of BigView Dr in Riverplace compare?
> those are a couple of beasts..
GEarth with my spreadsheet says that the steepest part of the bottom of
Big View is 21%. There might be a section in there that's 22% or maybe
23%, but only for a few yards.
Nasty.
Alex Rodriguez
waterr...@gmail.com says...
>What's my best solution for durable wheels at $300-400 for pair
>(shimano compatible)?
Custom built wheels using Dura-Ace hubs, Velocity aeroheads and DB spokes. I
would then pocket the extra cash.
>Would I be better off building my own 3-cross bent-spoke wheels, or
>buying some of the boutique wheels like entry-level mavic ksyriums or
>the like? Or can I find some straight-pull hubs and build up a set of
>those? (I can't locate any for sale online).
Custom built, assuming you can find a good wheel builder.
>In my 15-years and 120,000 miles on the bike, I have nearly always
>built my own wheels. I always start with an Ultegra or Dura-Ace hub,
>then pick the best-value Mavic hoops (Open 4-CD, or whatever was
>current at the time), and finish with some DT or Wheelsmith 14-15-14
>spokes and brass nipples.
I've done similar except I don't expect to find Mavic at reasonable prices.
I also use 15/16 on all of my wheels.
>The problem is that my rear wheels only last about 18 months. I weigh
>185 lbs. and do A LOT of hill repeats and sprint workouts in Austin.
>This means vigorously climbing hills that max out at 26% (the steep
>parts of Ladera Norte), and average between 10% and 14% for 300 feet of
>elevation. I'm not the most powerful or fastest rider around, but I am
>very tough on rear wheels.
>They always fail at a drive-side spoke bend, or if I don't have
>eyelets, maybe a drive-side spoke hole.
Sounds like you are not improving the spoke line and/or not stress relieving
the spokes.
>My front wheels last about 5 years before a spoke breaks at a bend, so
>I'm just worried about the rear.
Same thing.
>I'm proabably just a mediocre wheelbuilder.
It's easy to get better when you learn how to do it properly.
>I don't use a tensiometer,
Not really needed.
>but pluck and listen for consistent tone instead.
This works fine.
>I maintain them reasonably well, but only mess with them when I hear, see, or
>feel a problem -- I'm lazy in this respect.
Wheels should not requre any maintenance of this type unless you damage them.
>Nevertheless, the shop-built wheels I've ridden don't last any longer
>than my own, so I'm not a bad builder.
Just goes to show the shp builder could also use some more knowledge.
>So, I was thinking that straight-pull might be the way to go, but I
>understand that they often just fail at the spoke head.
Why?
--------------
Alex
waterr...@gmail.com
Alex Rodriguez wrote:
Thanks for all the info...
> >So, I was thinking that straight-pull might be the way to go, but I
> >understand that they often just fail at the spoke head.
>
> Why?
Well, my thinking was that if spokes were breaking at the bend,
eliminating the bend may help. It looks like that actually just pushes
the problem to the head.
Anyway, I'm thinking I'll end up with Ultegra or Dura Ace, with
Velocity Fusions (32 front, 36 rear), 3x 14-15 DB spokes, and more care
when stress relieving.
-Mike
data...@yahoo.com
-14 straight or 14-15-14 DT 16mm nipples(file)
try mavic 35 touring A719? with 35 rear tire 32 front on cvr-18 or
whatever
lube the hub holes with teflon/wax drip in and dry with rim over dry
wall bucket-drip both sides, drip down used spoke
cover finished hub/spokes with another wax/teflon film
linseed threads
i use a deore lx rear and stock cones, rebuld and repack as needed.
wheels mfg solid axle
replace drive sides at 4-5000 miles-inspect for cracks when replacing.
i put in two slime liners at rear and cut tube liner in front here at
drunk city
Ron Ruff
waterr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Anyway, I'm thinking I'll end up with Ultegra or Dura Ace, with
> Velocity Fusions (32 front, 36 rear), 3x 14-15 DB spokes, and more care
> when stress relieving.
Sounds like a great choice... except I'd consider using WS AE15 oval
butted spokes on the front and the left rear. They are 15/16 guage and
are quite reasonably priced (79 cents at oddsandendos). They will give
you a small aero improvement... but that's not important if you don't
plan to race at all. According to Jobst, 15/16 gauge spokes are "strong
enough"... provided that you are careful not to over-tension on the
front... and they may last longer than heavier spokes because they are
more elastic (ie less likely to go slack).