Fabien Barel Injured -- Broken Femur
Mike Vandeman
JD
> more injured person gloating
The Crime alert:
http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-050610-34.htm
pdf version:
http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/documents/10-050610-34.pdf
More recent information, including the officer assigned to the case:
http://police.berkeley.edu/bulletins/05152010Page2.htm
So Mike, was that you?
Have fun in jail, fool.
JD
Karamba
http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-052810-37NC.htm
On Friday, May 28, 2010 UCPD received a report of an assault with a
deadly weapon which had occurred around 6 weeks earlier. The assault
occurred on a Sunday on the East-West Fire Trail located in the hills
above campus. The victims, two non-affiliated White males, reported
the crime after hearing of similar incidents occurring to bicyclists
on the fire trail. The victims were riding their bicycles westbound
on the trail when they encountered the suspect walking in the opposite
direction. The suspect was holding a handsaw and cut one of the
victims across the chest with the saw. The victims asked the suspect
why he had attacked them. He told them they should not be riding
their bicycles on the trail. The victims positively identified the
suspect from a photograph. UCPD contacted the suspect who admitted to
holding a saw in front of some bicyclists on a trail and contacting
one of them with the saw. The suspect was subsequently taken into
custody. One of the victims suffered minor injuries during the
assault. Additional charges may be filed from similar incidences on
the fire trail including one reported in a crime alert on May 6, 2010.
The suspect is described as:
VANDEMAN, Michael J., a White non-affiliated male, 67 years of age.
If you have any information about this crime, please contact:
University of California Police Department
Criminal Investigation Bureau
(510) 642-0472 / 8AM-5PM
(510) 642-6760 / All other times
Jym Dyer
| across the chest with the saw.
=v= "Some folks call it a sling blade."
<_Jym_>
Bill Weir
> On May 27, 8:15 am, Mike Vandeman <mike.vande...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.nsmb.com/3692-fabian-barel-injured/
>
> http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-052810-37NC.htm
>
> On Friday, May 28, 2010 UCPD received a report of an assault with a
> deadly weapon which had occurred around 6 weeks earlier. The assault
> occurred on a Sunday on the East-West Fire Trail located in the hills
> above campus. The victims, two non-affiliated White males, reported
> the crime after hearing of similar incidents occurring to bicyclists
> on the fire trail. The victims were riding their bicycles westbound
> on the trail when they encountered the suspect walking in the opposite
> direction. The suspect was holding a handsaw and cut one of the
> victims across the chest with the saw. The victims asked the suspect
> why he had attacked them. He told them they should not be riding
> their bicycles on the trail. The victims positively identified the
> suspect from a photograph. UCPD contacted the suspect who admitted to
> holding a saw in front of some bicyclists on a trail and contacting
> one of them with the saw. The suspect was subsequently taken into
> custody. One of the victims suffered minor injuries during the
> assault. Additional charges may be filed from similar incidences on
> the fire trail including one reported in a crime alert on May 6, 2010.
>
> The suspect is described as:
>
> VANDEMAN, Michael J., a White non-affiliated male, 67 years of age.
>
It was only a matter of time. Makes you wonder what else he has been
up to.
T. Keating
<karam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 27, 8:15�am, Mike Vandeman <mike.vande...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.nsmb.com/3692-fabian-barel-injured/
>
>http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-052810-37NC.htm
>
>On Friday, May 28, 2010 UCPD received a report of an assault with a
>deadly weapon which had occurred around 6 weeks earlier. The assault
>occurred on a Sunday on the East-West Fire Trail located in the hills
>above campus. The victims, two non-affiliated White males, reported
>the crime after hearing of similar incidents occurring to bicyclists
>on the fire trail. The victims were riding their bicycles westbound
>on the trail when they encountered the suspect walking in the opposite
>direction. The suspect was holding a handsaw and cut one of the
>victims across the chest with the saw. The victims asked the suspect
>why he had attacked them. He told them they should not be riding
>their bicycles on the trail. The victims positively identified the
>suspect from a photograph. UCPD contacted the suspect who admitted to
>holding a saw in front of some bicyclists on a trail and contacting
>one of them with the saw. The suspect was subsequently taken into
>custody. One of the victims suffered minor injuries during the
>assault. Additional charges may be filed from similar incidences on
>the fire trail including one reported in a crime alert on May 6, 2010.
>
>The suspect is described as:
>
>VANDEMAN, Michael J., a White non-affiliated male, 67 years of age.
>
He's supplied the DA with plenty of premeditation / motive/ intent via
his Usenet postings/rants..
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
Wayne
Gunner McGoogle
>
> >http://www.nsmb.com/3692-fabian-barel-injured/
>
> http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-052810-37NC.htm
Thanks for posting.
Gotta wonder who was behind this other incident...
http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/index.html
On Monday, May 10, 2010 UCPD received a report of a brandishing and
false imprisonment which occurred at approximately 1:26 p.m. on
Thursday, May 6, 2010. The incident took place on the upper fire
trail located between Grizzly Peak Blvd and the eastern side of the UC
Berkeley campus. The victim, a 33 year old Hispanic male student, was
riding his bicycle on the trail when a man stepped directly in front
of his bicycle forcing him to stop. The suspect grabbed the handle
bars of the bike, while depressing the brake lever. The suspect
angrily yelled at the victim regarding his bicycle ruining the trail
and the environment. The suspect let go of the victim’s bicycle and
brandished a small tool with a sharp end. Upon the release of his
bicycle, the victim was able to flee the scene. The suspect is
similar in description to a subject who has had numerous
confrontations with bicyclists on the fire trail which is open to
hikers, but closed to vehicular traffic, including bicycles.
The suspect was described as:
A White male, approximately 50 to 60 years of age, 5’08-5’09” in
height, 175 lbs., with black and grey short hair, wearing reading
glasses, a tan fishing hat, grey t-shirt, khaki shorts and carrying a
hard-covered book.
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:rqtd061nvaoa3rip5...@4ax.com...
Let's see ... two middle aged men vs. one elderly man? I wonder who was
being aggressive first.
> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
"California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
Probably the guy who got arrested. Too obvious?
>> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
>
>All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>"California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
Here's a plan - get yourselves a couple of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1950s-Roy-Rogers-Deputy-Badge-/290440153743?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f950a8f.
Pose wearing them, then make that into a postcard you can send out
from your shared room at the booby hatch.
Wayne
Jeff Strickland
"Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
news:245f3$4c0730b4$d8102c96$18...@KNOLOGY.NET...
Ed, by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, these bike riders were engaged in a permissible
activity! They were riding on a vehicle route, not on a hiking trail.
Vandeman is charged with assault with a deadly weapon, and should be charged
with attempted murder. (Actually, charging him with attempted murder would
raise the bar enough that he might actually be set free by a jury.)
SMS
<snip>
> Vandeman is charged with assault with a deadly weapon, and should be charged
> with attempted murder. (Actually, charging him with attempted murder would
> raise the bar enough that he might actually be set free by a jury.)
Yeah, you've got to be careful with charges that way. I doubt if the
case will be heard by a jury, it'll probably be plea-bargained to a
fine, some months in the county jail, then probation, but no state
prison time, especially if it's a first offense. The state prisons are
so over-crowded that for a first offender the prosecutor would probably
not push for prison time. OTOH, it was a violent felony, not a
misdemeanor, so you never know what can happen. There could be civil
suits as well, though it's unlikely there are any significant assets to
go after.
Jeff Strickland
"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:4c07d7f9$0$1643$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Well, Vandeman is a PhD, after all, and should have a well paying job at the
university. He looks like a hobo in the booking shot though.
All I can say is, "Mike, don't drop the soap."
Bill Weir
> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
Ed Dolan will advise Mike to use powdered soap as it takes longer to
pick up.
Bob Berger
Jeff: You'll note that Ed is advocating violence, mass murder to be exact. Not a
good thing to be doing these days. I've forwarded copies of Ed's post to both
the US Justice Department, and the Minnesota Attorney General's office, so thay
can decide whether or not he's a threat to society.
Bob Berger
Shut the door, lock and latch it,
here comes Mikey with a brand new hatchet.
(Apologies to the Chad Mitchell Trio)
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:j0hf065g4d8gu7foi...@4ax.com...[...]
>>Let's see ... two middle aged men vs. one elderly man? I wonder who was
>>being aggressive first.
>
> Probably the guy who got arrested. Too obvious?
Bicycles were prohibited from that trail. Maybe Mr. Vandeman was simply
making a citizen's arrest. I would have taken the saw to their balls (since
that is where their brains are located) instead of to their chest.
>>> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
>>
>>All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>>their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>>reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>>wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>>"California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
>
> Here's a plan - get yourselves a couple of these
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1950s-Roy-Rogers-Deputy-Badge-/290440153743?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f950a8f.
> Pose wearing them, then make that into a postcard you can send out
> from your shared room at the booby hatch.
I never go to a link unless I know what to expect. Now go fuck yourself and
quit bothering us rational types.
Fucking Regards,
Edward Dolan
"Jeff Strickland" <crwl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hu8k12$80c$3...@news.eternal-september.org...[...]
>> Let's see ... two middle aged men vs. one elderly man? I wonder who was
>> being aggressive first.
>>
>>> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
>>
>> All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>> their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>> reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>> wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>> "California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
>
> Ed, by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, these bike riders were engaged in a permissible
> activity! They were riding on a vehicle route, not on a hiking trail.
I think the above may be the crux of the matter. I strongly suspect that
bicycles were prohibited on that trail. Mountain bikers are notorious for
being scofflaws and criminals.
> Vandeman is charged with assault with a deadly weapon, and should be
> charged with attempted murder. (Actually, charging him with attempted
> murder would raise the bar enough that he might actually be set free by a
> jury.)
The above statement is absurd. Mr. Vandeman would not hurt a fly. You have
him confused with me. I swat flies all the time. He was most likely
defending himself from assault by two criminal mountain bikers who had no
business being on that trail in the first place.
But I like the way Jeff and others leap to judgment. Guilty until proven
innocent!
Jeff Strickland
>> All I can say is, "Mike, don't drop the soap."
>
> to be fucked.
>
This is a sublety that has escaped you, Mike's the one in jail, not me.
Whether I wanted to be fucked in the ass or not, Mike's the one with the
opportunity -- don't drop the soap, Michael.
FOR THE RECORD
My ass is an Exit Only.
Jeff Strickland
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:hu8k12$80c$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> [...]
>>> Let's see ... two middle aged men vs. one elderly man? I wonder who was
>>> being aggressive first.
>>>
>>>> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
>>>
>>> All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>>> their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>>> reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>>> wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>>> "California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
>>
>> Ed, by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, these bike riders were engaged in a
>> permissible activity! They were riding on a vehicle route, not on a
>> hiking trail.
>
> I think the above may be the crux of the matter. I strongly suspect that
> bicycles were prohibited on that trail. Mountain bikers are notorious for
> being scofflaws and criminals.
>
According to the report -- a booking report, I might add -- the route was a
vehicle route because a FIRE ROAD is intended for vehicles to carry firemen
and equipment (fire trucks) into the fire area. It is a vehicle route, and
therefore not a hiking trail where you assert that bikes should never be
found.
Whether they are scoflaws and criminals is really not the point here.
Michael J. Vandeman sits in jail for criminally assaulting somebody engaged
in an activity that you heretofore have stated is permissible.
>> Vandeman is charged with assault with a deadly weapon, and should be
>> charged with attempted murder. (Actually, charging him with attempted
>> murder would raise the bar enough that he might actually be set free by a
>> jury.)
>
> The above statement is absurd. Mr. Vandeman would not hurt a fly.
The booking report tends to dispute that statement.
You have
> him confused with me. I swat flies all the time. He was most likely
> defending himself from assault by two criminal mountain bikers who had no
> business being on that trail in the first place.
>
> But I like the way Jeff and others leap to judgment. Guilty until proven
> innocent!
>
Dude, I'm just reading the booking report. They don't normally throw the
victim(s) of a violent assault in jail for assaulting the person with the
weapon. Normally the person with the weapon goes to jail on the assault
charge.
You being a nermit and all, must not come out of your cave very often.
Edward Dolan
"Bill Weir" <billw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1ea9e76-8ef3-4109...@k31g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> Ed Dolan will advise Mike to use powdered soap as it takes longer to
pick up.
I have advised Bill Weir to go fuck TM's monkeys, but he never listens to
me. Yea, Bill Weir is the master of piss, shit and fuck, but he is just all
talk. I would like to see some action.
Fucking Regards,
Edward Dolan
"Bob Berger" <Bob_m...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:hu8og...@drn.newsguy.com...
[...]
> Jeff: You'll note that Ed is advocating violence, mass murder to be exact.
> Not a
> good thing to be doing these days. I've forwarded copies of Ed's post to
> both
> the US Justice Department, and the Minnesota Attorney General's office, so
> thay
> can decide whether or not he's a threat to society.
You are a threat to your own ass, but too stupid to realize it.
If every mountain biker were to croak tomorrow the world would be a far, far
better place.
Now go fuck yourself and quit bothering us rational folks.
Fucking Regards,
Edward Dolan
> Not a
> good thing to be doing these days. I've forwarded copies of Ed's post to
> both
> the US Justice Department, and the Minnesota Attorney General's office, so
> thay
> can decide whether or not he's a threat to society.
I hope you also referred the above offices to my many messages on various
newsgroups advocating the atom bombing of the whole of Iran. Now there is
some real violence for you. I have also advocated dropping an atom bomb on
Tom Sherman's head, but I will include your head too if you wish.
Fucking Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
PS: I have given your name to the local police department as I think you may
be insane and prone to violence.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>
><wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:j0hf065g4d8gu7foi...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:34:32 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
>> wrote:
>[...]
>>>Let's see ... two middle aged men vs. one elderly man? I wonder who was
>>>being aggressive first.
>>
>> Probably the guy who got arrested. Too obvious?
>
>Bicycles were prohibited from that trail. Maybe Mr. Vandeman was simply
>making a citizen's arrest. I would have taken the saw to their balls (since
>that is where their brains are located) instead of to their chest.
>
>>>> What we need now is for Ed Dolan to serve as his defense attorney.
>>>
>>>All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>>>their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>>>reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>>>wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>>>"California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
>>
>> Here's a plan - get yourselves a couple of these
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1950s-Roy-Rogers-Deputy-Badge-/290440153743?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f950a8f.
>> Pose wearing them, then make that into a postcard you can send out
>> from your shared room at the booby hatch.
>
>I never go to a link unless I know what to expect.
First, dollars to donuts you *did* click on the link. Second, the link
is self explanatory as it's clearly to an ebay auction for a Roy
Rogers deputy badge. So if your reading comprehension levels are about
grade 3 or above, then you *did* know what to expect. Oops, what am I
saying...
> Now go fuck yourself and
>quit bothering us rational types.
Rational types like you and Vandeman? Too funny. Seriously, please act
as his defense counsel and post video. I would *pay* to watch that.
I'm not into mountain biking, but saw-wielding crackpots assisted by a
like-minded nutball - now *that's* entertainment.
Wayne
Edward Dolan
Sexual allusions are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Leave that sort of
thing to Bill Weir.
Edward Dolan
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:6bcbc$4c07f2e2$d8102c96$27...@KNOLOGY.NET...
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <crwl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> Ed, by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, these bike riders were engaged in a
>>> permissible activity! They were riding on a vehicle route, not on a
>>> hiking trail.
>>
>> I think the above may be the crux of the matter. I strongly suspect that
>> bicycles were prohibited on that trail. Mountain bikers are notorious for
>> being scofflaws and criminals.
>
> According to the report -- a booking report, I might add -- the route was
> a vehicle route because a FIRE ROAD is intended for vehicles to carry
> firemen and equipment (fire trucks) into the fire area. It is a vehicle
> route, and therefore not a hiking trail where you assert that bikes should
> never be found.
See the video posted on just RBS I believe. I think I saw a sign post on the
trail saying that bicycles were prohibited. If I am wrong, then of course
Mr. Vandeman was out of bounds. But still, I understand his anger and
frustration.
> Whether they are scoflaws and criminals is really not the point here.
> Michael J. Vandeman sits in jail for criminally assaulting somebody
> engaged in an activity that you heretofore have stated is permissible.
Well, I am not in favor of assaulting anyone ever, no matter what. I just
report criminal behavior to the police, a favorite pastime of mine.
[...]
>> But I like the way Jeff and others leap to judgment. Guilty until proven
>> innocent!
>>
>
> Dude, I'm just reading the booking report. They don't normally throw the
> victim(s) of a violent assault in jail for assaulting the person with the
> weapon. Normally the person with the weapon goes to jail on the assault
> charge.
You and others are making statements that you think he is guilty of an
assault. You can't go by what is being charged. It is why we have trials by
jury in this country. There is no doubt in my mind that the mountain bikers
are guilty in some measure of bringing about the situation.
SMS
<snip>
> According to the report -- a booking report, I might add -- the route was a
> vehicle route because a FIRE ROAD is intended for vehicles to carry firemen
> and equipment (fire trucks) into the fire area. It is a vehicle route, and
> therefore not a hiking trail where you assert that bikes should never be
> found.
Yes, it's a fire road, but UC's rule is that only emergency vehicles are
allowed to use it and bicyclists are prohibited. Of course none of that
will have any bearing on the outcome of this case, since ordinary
citizens can't run around attacking people for not obeying the UC's
rules, they need to call the UC police and report the incident. MV would
have been better off with digital camera or camcorder than a weapon.
Personally I would hope that he _not_ be sent to one of California's
gated communities for a long period of time, since paying to keep him
there would be ridiculously expensive. I would hope he gets a heavy
fine, a stint in the county jail, community service, psychological
evaluation and treatment, plus probation and electronic monitoring with
a prohibition of him being on any hiking or biking trails for the next
25 years. Plus he would have to pay restitution to the injured party.
But that may not even be possible if it goes to trial and he's convicted
since judges have very limited leeway in sentencing for violent
felonies. If it's a plea bargain rather than a trial then he could get
off without real prison time. Regardless of the outcome of the criminal
case there's also a high probability of civil suits, so hopefully he's
got insurance, including an umbrella policy, to settle those suits.
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:0r0g06h9vr0ignvkt...@4ax.com...[...]
>>>>All these anti-Vandeman posts are absurd. It is the Lilliputians taking
>>>>their revenge. We KNOW there is more to the story than what has been
>>>>reported. If the moutain bikers were typical California yahoos, it is a
>>>>wonder the Great Mike Vandeman did not slaughter them outright. Yea, a
>>>>"California chainsaw massacre" is what is needed.
>>>
>>> Here's a plan - get yourselves a couple of these
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1950s-Roy-Rogers-Deputy-Badge-/290440153743?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439f950a8f.
>>> Pose wearing them, then make that into a postcard you can send out
>>> from your shared room at the booby hatch.
>>
>>I never go to a link unless I know what to expect.
>
> First, dollars to donuts you *did* click on the link. Second, the link
> is self explanatory as it's clearly to an ebay auction for a Roy
> Rogers deputy badge. So if your reading comprehension levels are about
> grade 3 or above, then you *did* know what to expect. Oops, what am I
> saying...
Nope, I NEVER go to link unless it is adequately explained beforehand. What
you just did above is what you should have done initially. Then I could have
made a rational choice whether to go to it or not. By the way, I would not
have gone since your sense of humor is moronic.
>> Now go fuck yourself and
>>quit bothering us rational types.
>
> Rational types like you and Vandeman? Too funny. Seriously, please act
> as his defense counsel and post video. I would *pay* to watch that.
> I'm not into mountain biking, but saw-wielding crackpots assisted by a
> like-minded nutball - now *that's* entertainment.
You do not know what transpired anymore than anyone else. A charge is just
that - nothing but a charge. Your hatred has made you irrational. You are a
disgrace. You belong in a place like China or Iran where you could be a
subject instead of a citizen of a republic.
Edward Dolan
> On 03/06/10 11:41 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> According to the report -- a booking report, I might add -- the route was
>> a
>> vehicle route because a FIRE ROAD is intended for vehicles to carry
>> firemen
>> and equipment (fire trucks) into the fire area. It is a vehicle route,
>> and
>> therefore not a hiking trail where you assert that bikes should never be
>> found.
>
> Yes, it's a fire road, but UC's rule is that only emergency vehicles are
> allowed to use it and bicyclists are prohibited. Of course none of that
> will have any bearing on the outcome of this case, since ordinary citizens
> can't run around attacking people for not obeying the UC's rules, they
> need to call the UC police and report the incident. MV would have been
> better off with digital camera or camcorder than a weapon.
Even so, that puts it in a different perspective. The mountain bikers were
violating the rules. It is what Mr. Vandeman and I hate the most - mountain
bikers acting like mountain bikers.
> Personally I would hope that he _not_ be sent to one of California's gated
> communities for a long period of time, since paying to keep him there
> would be ridiculously expensive. I would hope he gets a heavy fine, a
> stint in the county jail, community service, psychological evaluation and
> treatment, plus probation and electronic monitoring with a prohibition of
> him being on any hiking or biking trails for the next 25 years. Plus he
> would have to pay restitution to the injured party.
I doubt that there was any injury inflicted on anyone. It was a tempest in a
tea cup and not much should happen to anyone. But it is interesting as hell
how you want something to happen. I guess that is ever the hallmark of the
weak and the defeated.
> But that may not even be possible if it goes to trial and he's convicted
> since judges have very limited leeway in sentencing for violent felonies.
> If it's a plea bargain rather than a trial then he could get off without
> real prison time. Regardless of the outcome of the criminal case there's
> also a high probability of civil suits, so hopefully he's got insurance,
> including an umbrella policy, to settle those suits.
I suspect it was the mountain bikers that provoked the whole thing. They
should have been charged for being in violation of the rules.
Mr. Vandeman will know how to defend himself since he is not an idiot like
all the rest of you.
SMS
<snip>
> But that may not even be possible if it goes to trial and he's convicted
> since judges have very limited leeway in sentencing for violent
> felonies. If it's a plea bargain rather than a trial then he could get
> off without real prison time. Regardless of the outcome of the criminal
> case there's also a high probability of civil suits, so hopefully he's
> got insurance, including an umbrella policy, to settle those suits.
I just read that he was only charged with two misdemeanors, vandalism
and assault. So the chance of prison time is nil. Probably just
probation since it's the first time he's been arrested, plus UC will
likely ban him from their land.
Tom Sherman °_°
> [...]
> FOR THE RECORD
> My ass is an Exit Only.
>
@2:14 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJOVlHWgbbA>.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Edward Dolan
UC ought to go after the idiot mountain bikers since they are the ones who
are creating the problem in the first instance.
Karamba
He is in Santa Rita jail on $100000 bail for felony assault.
Bill Weir
> You and others are making statements that you think he is guilty of an
> assault. You can't go by what is being charged. It is why we have trials by
> jury in this country. There is no doubt in my mind that the mountain bikers
> are guilty in some measure of bringing about the situation.
The mountain-bikers are enjoying their freedom while Mike sits in a
county jail. All your blathering isn't going to change that.
Bill Weir
> I suspect it was the mountain bikers that provoked the whole thing. They
> should have been charged for being in violation of the rules.
Suspect all you want, the mountain-bikers are not sitting in a county
jail.
Life is good!
Bill Weir
He's also a suspect in similar attacks so this incident may just be
the beginning.
SMS
The inmate locator shows that a hearing took place at 9:00 a.m. this
morning.
Apparently there were/are three charges, two misdemeanors and one
felony. I expect that the lawyer is trying to find a way to get the
felony charge dropped to avoid prison time, perhaps with a plea bargain
to the other two charges, but that's just speculation. The news report I
read did not even mention the felony charge.
Puppet_Sock
It might, actually. It might get Mikey *more* time. Since Mikey
would seem to not be acting alone, there are things like inciting,
conspiracy, example to others, etc. Mikey has been a nutter
for many years. The blather could highlight this for a jduge.
Socks
Karamba
> > He is in Santa Rita jail on $100000 bail for felony assault.
>
> >http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8868/86952637.jpg
>
> The inmate locator shows that a hearing took place at 9:00 a.m. this
> morning.
It was after that hearing that bail was increased from 12K to 100K and
he was transferred to county jail.
> Apparently there were/are three charges, two misdemeanors and one
> felony. I expect that the lawyer is trying to find a way to get the
> felony charge dropped to avoid prison time, perhaps with a plea bargain
> to the other two charges, but that's just speculation. The news report I
> read did not even mention the felony charge.
The "GBI" on that charge stand for Great Bodily Injury. With this
enhancement, Assault with a Deadly Weapon should be a felony.
The news reports did not do their homework.
Bruce Jensen
Holy shit - I knew he was cracked, but not that cracked!
Edward Dolan
Nothing is ever over until the fat lady sings.
Edward Dolan
"Puppet_Sock" <puppe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:97a326d1-4162-4a99...@b21g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
A judge would only be influenced by the blather on these newsgroups if he
was as stupid as you are.
Edward Dolan
It is the mountain bikers who ought to be sitting in jail since they are
guilty of riding their bikes on a trail where such was prohibited. All Mr.
Vandeman was doing was defending nature against criminal mountain bikers.
Edward Dolan
"Bruce Jensen" <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:09c9318f-afeb-428a...@32g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
The only crackpots I know about are all the criminal mountain bikers who
regularly post to these newsgroups. It is apparently fine with them if
mountain bikers ride their god damn fucking bikes on hiking trails, even
when such trails are posted against it.
These newsgroups are ever the province of idiots. Even though you don't
realize it. The Great Ed Dolan is slumming by just being here, let alone
posting His invaluable messages which strike to the soul of any rational
person.
Bruce Jensen
> "Bruce Jensen" <bpnjen...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:09c9318f-afeb-428a...@32g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 3, 11:22 pm, Karamba <karamba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > The above statement is absurd. Mr. Vandeman would not hurt a fly.
>
> > He is in Santa Rita jail on $100000 bail for felony assault.
>
> >http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8868/86952637.jpg
> >>> Holy shit - I knew he was cracked, but not that cracked!
>
> The only crackpots I know about are all the criminal mountain bikers who
> regularly post to these newsgroups. It is apparently fine with them if
> mountain bikers ride their god damn fucking bikes on hiking trails, even
> when such trails are posted against it.
>
> These newsgroups are ever the province of idiots. Even though you don't
> realize it. The Great Ed Dolan is slumming by just being here, let alone
> posting His invaluable messages which strike to the soul of any rational
> person.
>
Oh, Pshaw and poppycock.
Edward Dolan
>>>> Oh, Pshaw and poppycock.
Yeah, but I say it better than you.
SMS
The three charges are still there, one felony and two misdemeanors. The
next court appearance is on July 9th for a pre-trial hearing where the
whole matter will likely be resolved with some sort of plea bargain.
SMS
> The "GBI" on that charge stand for Great Bodily Injury. With this
> enhancement, Assault with a Deadly Weapon should be a felony.
>
> The news reports did not do their homework.
The bail was $12,500. Apparently he or a bondsman has posted bail as he
is now out of jail. Should not be long before he starts posting again,
unless his attorney has advised him against it.
JimmyMac
> "Bill Weir" <billwei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I understand that mountain biking is prohibited on this trail, but it
probably never occurred to the legislature to pass a law to prohibit
that hiking with a saw in hand. That begs some questions. What was
Mike doing with a saw anyway? I am reasonably certain that it is
illegal to play lumberjack in those woods, so isn't it reasonable to
assume that the saw was likely a premeditated choice of weaponry?
What gives Mike Vandeman the right to to assume the role of law
enforcement?
One can learn a lot about a man by what he does and does not do, be it
Mike or you for that matter. The DOES PART here is demonstrated by
your blind allegiance to and defense of a psychopathic criminal. and
the DOES NOT PART is demonstrated by your inability or unwillingness
to condemn an inexcusable and indefensible act of taking the law into
one's hand and inflicting injury on a fellow human being. Whether one
agrees with Mike Vandeman or not, it is obvious to all that he is
passionate about his beliefs. On the other hand, it is also obvious
to all, YOU being the ONLY exception, that the course of action chosen
constitutes a crime unacceptable in civilized society. What don't you
understand about assault (the threat) and battery (the action)? A
person is judged by the company one keeps. Your defense of Mike
Vandeman, speaks volumes.
Bruce Jensen
> I understand that mountain biking is prohibited on this trail, but it
> probably never occurred to the legislature to pass a law to prohibit
> that hiking with a saw in hand. That begs some questions. What was
> Mike doing with a saw anyway? I am reasonably certain that it is
> illegal to play lumberjack in those woods, so isn't it reasonable to
> assume that the saw was likely a premeditated choice of weaponry?
> What gives Mike Vandeman the right to to assume the role of law
> enforcement?
Mike is eccentric enough to assume almost any role for the saw. He
might have even been playing music on it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_saw
He is a classical music lover, you know! :-D
SMS
<snip>
> Mike is eccentric enough to assume almost any role for the saw. He
> might have even been playing music on it...
In the unlikely event that this case actually goes to trial, I expect
that the defense will argue that he carries the saw for a purpose such
as removing fallen limbs from the trail.
Personally I would not like to see him in prison. First, it's a waste of
taxpayer's money, second, he's unlikely to repeat this sort of thing
because the penalty for a repeat offense would be decades in prison (in
practical terms a life sentence or nearly so), third, he greatly helps
the cause of expanded access for mountain biking.
The D.A. should let him plead guilty to the two misdemeanors, require
restitution, and, in the spirit of "let the punishment fit the crime,"
require him to do several hundred hours of trail maintenance on mountain
bike trails. But you never know. He may insist on taking his chances
with a jury trial.
"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." Confucius
Edward Dolan
"JimmyMac" <jimmy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:edd373e1-1f54-4faf...@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...[...]
> It is the mountain bikers who ought to be sitting in jail since they are
> guilty of riding their bikes on a trail where such was prohibited. All Mr.
> Vandeman was doing was defending nature against criminal mountain bikers.
>> I understand that mountain biking is prohibited on this trail, but it
probably never occurred to the legislature to pass a law to prohibit
that hiking with a saw in hand. That begs some questions. What was
Mike doing with a saw anyway? I am reasonably certain that it is
illegal to play lumberjack in those woods, so isn't it reasonable to
assume that the saw was likely a premeditated choice of weaponry?
What gives Mike Vandeman the right to to assume the role of law
enforcement?
Mr.Vandeman was probably carrying a handsaw to slash the tires of any
unattended bicycles he came across on that trail. Yes, it is vandalism, but
how else do you communicate anything to criminal mountain bikers.
>> One can learn a lot about a man by what he does and does not do, be it
Mike or you for that matter. The DOES PART here is demonstrated by
your blind allegiance to and defense of a psychopathic criminal. and
the DOES NOT PART is demonstrated by your inability or unwillingness
to condemn an inexcusable and indefensible act of taking the law into
one's hand and inflicting injury on a fellow human being.
He was probably just defending himself from two criminal mountain bikers and
used the weapon he had at hand.
>> Whether one
agrees with Mike Vandeman or not, it is obvious to all that he is
passionate about his beliefs. On the other hand, it is also obvious
to all, YOU being the ONLY exception, that the course of action chosen
constitutes a crime unacceptable in civilized society.
These newsgroups are chock full of human scum mountain bikers who regularly
ignore any and all rules that interfere with their cycling on hiking trails.
>> What don't you
understand about assault (the threat) and battery (the action)? A
person is judged by the company one keeps. Your defense of Mike
Vandeman, speaks volumes.
Your piling on also speaks volumes. The fact is that no one knows what took
place in any detail. It is all surmise. I am willing to let a trial and a
jury sort it out, but the human scum mountain bikers on these groups are
only too willing to believe guilty as charged. They are a disgrace to
civilization!
Edward Dolan
> On 06/06/10 9:59 AM, Bruce Jensen wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Mike is eccentric enough to assume almost any role for the saw. He
>> might have even been playing music on it...
>
> In the unlikely event that this case actually goes to trial, I expect that
> the defense will argue that he carries the saw for a purpose such as
> removing fallen limbs from the trail.
>
> Personally I would not like to see him in prison. First, it's a waste of
> taxpayer's money, second, he's unlikely to repeat this sort of thing
> because the penalty for a repeat offense would be decades in prison (in
> practical terms a life sentence or nearly so), third, he greatly helps the
> cause of expanded access for mountain biking.
Mountain biking is going to go the way of the Dodo Bird unless they get
their own playground type of trails. A few hiker fatalities and that will be
the end of it.
> The D.A. should let him plead guilty to the two misdemeanors, require
> restitution, and, in the spirit of "let the punishment fit the crime,"
> require him to do several hundred hours of trail maintenance on mountain
> bike trails. But you never know. He may insist on taking his chances with
> a jury trial.
Yes, you NEVER do know, do you? What I would like to know is do the mountain
bikers have even a scratch on them? Threats are everywhere, even on these
newsgroups!
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>Mr.Vandeman was probably carrying a handsaw to slash the tires of any
>unattended bicycles he came across on that trail.
My gawd, please pretty please attend the hearing and put in your 2
cents! A handsaw for bicycle tires? Why, was a nail clipper too heavy
for him to carry?
Wayne
Bruce Jensen
I just use my trusty Swiss Army Knife. For practically everything, in
fact, from cooking beans to rowing my canoe.
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:4uvn065rkerelbd9p...@4ax.com...
A handsaw will also serve as a defensive weapon against scumbag criminal
mountain bikers whereas a nail clipper won't.
Is it legal to carry a concealed handgun on your person in California? If it
is, then that is the only way to go.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>
><wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:4uvn065rkerelbd9p...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 13:14:55 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Mr.Vandeman was probably carrying a handsaw to slash the tires of any
>>>unattended bicycles he came across on that trail.
>>
>> My gawd, please pretty please attend the hearing and put in your 2
>> cents! A handsaw for bicycle tires? Why, was a nail clipper too heavy
>> for him to carry?
>
>A handsaw will also serve as a defensive weapon against scumbag criminal
>mountain bikers whereas a nail clipper won't.
>Is it legal to carry a concealed handgun on your person in California? If it
>is, then that is the only way to go.
Duty calls. Will you please put your comments above and all the rest
of your defense in a letter, and mail it to the court? Surely that's
not too much to ask.
Wayne
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:1n8o06t77mb90hdhq...@4ax.com...
Judges and I are as of one mind. We KNOW that there are always two sides to
a story, unlike you and all the rest of the scumbag criminal mountain bikers
that infest these newsgroups like locusts. Nope, all YOU ever have to hear
are the charges and that settles it. Forget about judges, trials and juries.
The charges are sufficient!
You are a disgrace to civilization!
Bill Weir
> <wmbjkREM...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1n8o06t77mb90hdhq...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:10:11 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
> > wrote:
> >>>>Mr.Vandeman was probably carrying a handsaw to slash the tires of any
> >>>>unattended bicycles he came across on that trail.
>
> >>> My gawd, please pretty please attend the hearing and put in your 2
> >>> cents! A handsaw for bicycle tires? Why, was a nail clipper too heavy
> >>> for him to carry?
>
> >>A handsaw will also serve as a defensive weapon against scumbag criminal
> >>mountain bikers whereas a nail clipper won't.
>
> >>Is it legal to carry a concealed handgun on your person in California? If
> >>it
> >>is, then that is the only way to go.
>
> > Duty calls. Will you please put your comments above and all the rest
> > of your defense in a letter, and mail it to the court? Surely that's
> > not too much to ask.
>
> Judges and I are as of one mind. We KNOW that there are always two sides to
> a story, unlike you and all the rest of the scumbag criminal mountain bikers
> that infest these newsgroups like locusts. Nope, all YOU ever have to hear
> are the charges and that settles it. Forget about judges, trials and juries.
> The charges are sufficient!
It's time to ignore this irrational sociopath. He destroyed RBR
(almost 13,000 posts there alone) and will do the same to this and any
other newsgroup. With almost 33,000 posts in the last 7 years, it is
clear that he has no life other than arguing with people online. He's
an old, combative social-misfit like that other nutcase, Michael
Vandeman. It will only be a matter of time until Ed acts out against
those he argues with like Michael did.
Cue tirade...
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>
><wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:1n8o06t77mb90hdhq...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:10:11 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>Mr.Vandeman was probably carrying a handsaw to slash the tires of any
>>>>>unattended bicycles he came across on that trail.
>>>>
>>>> My gawd, please pretty please attend the hearing and put in your 2
>>>> cents! A handsaw for bicycle tires? Why, was a nail clipper too heavy
>>>> for him to carry?
>>>
>>>A handsaw will also serve as a defensive weapon against scumbag criminal
>>>mountain bikers whereas a nail clipper won't.
>>>
>>>Is it legal to carry a concealed handgun on your person in California? If
>>>it
>>>is, then that is the only way to go.
>>
>> Duty calls. Will you please put your comments above and all the rest
>> of your defense in a letter, and mail it to the court? Surely that's
>> not too much to ask.
>
>Judges and I are as of one mind. We KNOW that there are always two sides to
>a story
Exactly, which is why I think you should contribute your theories to
the defense. Surely Vandeloon's attorney will welcome assistance from
a self-professed genius. Bare minimum you should do to help your
fellow genius - put all your ideas into a letter to the court, and
post a copy here. And if you're anything more than the windbag you
appear, then you'd get your butt into the hearing and show some
solidarity. My prediction is that the only thing you're going to do is
sit on your ass building more straw men to flail against.
Wayne
Bruce Jensen
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just thought of a nickname, if not completely pertinent, it's fun -
'Band-Saw-Vandeman' - say it with rhythm and it trips off the tongue
most agreeably ;-)
JimmyMac
You could be right. I mean the guy could have poor eysesight and
mistook the mountain biker for a bass fiddle ;^)
SMS
The saw is the perfect weapon since he could always claim that he
brought it along to clear downed tree limbs, yet it's also a good
offensive weapon useful for damaging bicycles and humans.
We will likely never know the whole story. The case will likely be
plea-bargained and any monetary settlement to the victims will not be
made public.
Edward Dolan
[...]
> The saw is the perfect weapon since he could always claim that he brought
> it along to clear downed tree limbs, yet it's also a good offensive weapon
> useful for damaging bicycles and humans.
Not an offensive weapon, but a defensive weapon.
[...]
Edward Dolan
[...]
> It's time to ignore this irrational sociopath. He destroyed ARBR
(almost 13,000 posts there alone) and will do the same to this and any
other newsgroup. With almost 33,000 posts in the last 7 years, it is
clear that he has no life other than arguing with people online. He's
an old, combative social-misfit like that other nutcase, Michael
Vandeman. It will only be a matter of time until Ed acts out against
those he argues with like Michael did.
Each and every one of my many messages are tailored to a previous message.
Poor Tibetan Monkey ends up just talking to himself. That is because he is a
nut case. Note well that others are always interested in what I have to say.
That is because I stay on point and say things rather well if I do say so
myself.
By the way, ARBR was destroyed by a criminal vandal troll by the name of Ed
Gin and Associates. Tom Sherman stood by and let it happen. Only yours truly
showed any courage (along with Jim McNamara).
Edward Dolan
[...]
> I just thought of a nickname, if not completely pertinent, it's fun -
> 'Band-Saw-Vandeman' - say it with rhythm and it trips off the tongue
most agreeably ;-)
Why not find a chat room somewhere on the Web. Newsgroups are not for your
inanities.
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:l8vp06tii2j5ekic8...@4ax.com...[...]
>>Judges and I are as of one mind. We KNOW that there are always two sides
>>to
>>a story
>
> Exactly, which is why I think you should contribute your theories to
> the defense. Surely Vandeloon's attorney will welcome assistance from
> a self-professed genius. Bare minimum you should do to help your
> fellow genius - put all your ideas into a letter to the court, and
> post a copy here. And if you're anything more than the windbag you
> appear, then you'd get your butt into the hearing and show some
> solidarity. My prediction is that the only thing you're going to do is
> sit on your ass building more straw men to flail against.
I am the laziest man in the world, something I take great pride in. I would
not lift my little finger for anyone. However I would lift my middle finger
for one and all.
What straw men would that be? I was the one who pointed out that the
mountain bikers were on a trail where bicycles were prohibited.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>
><wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:l8vp06tii2j5ekic8...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:24:53 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
>> wrote:
>[...]
>>>Judges and I are as of one mind. We KNOW that there are always two sides
>>>to
>>>a story
>>
>> Exactly, which is why I think you should contribute your theories to
>> the defense. Surely Vandeloon's attorney will welcome assistance from
>> a self-professed genius. Bare minimum you should do to help your
>> fellow genius - put all your ideas into a letter to the court, and
>> post a copy here. And if you're anything more than the windbag you
>> appear, then you'd get your butt into the hearing and show some
>> solidarity. My prediction is that the only thing you're going to do is
>> sit on your ass building more straw men to flail against.
>
>I am the laziest man in the world, something I take great pride in. I would
>not lift my little finger for anyone.
Of all the nonsense you've written, that's the closest any of it has
come to being believable. Except that you *are* lifting your fingers
at least far enough to type out endless displays of your kookiness.
Wayne
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:pd2r06prdvb5ohqs8...@4ax.com...[...]
>>I am the laziest man in the world, something I take great pride in. I
>>would
>>not lift my little finger for anyone.
>
> Of all the nonsense you've written, that's the closest any of it has
> come to being believable. Except that you *are* lifting your fingers
> at least far enough to type out endless displays of your kookiness.
Mr. Vandeman is busy with other things at the moment, so I am here to defend
him against the scurrilous attacks by the mountain bikers. They have a gang
mentality which I find truly reprehensible.
wmbjk...@citlink.net
wrote:
>
><wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
>news:pd2r06prdvb5ohqs8...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:54:53 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net>
>> wrote:
>[...]
>>>I am the laziest man in the world, something I take great pride in. I
>>>would
>>>not lift my little finger for anyone.
>>
>> Of all the nonsense you've written, that's the closest any of it has
>> come to being believable. Except that you *are* lifting your fingers
>> at least far enough to type out endless displays of your kookiness.
>
>Mr. Vandeman is busy with other things at the moment
LOL Well, I guess that's one way to put it. Another would be that
he's busy trying to slow his self-destruction.
>, so I am here to defend
>him
First you say you won't lift a finger, then you admit that the time
you've wasted here is spent defending him. I say again - the least you
can do is copy and paste your comments and send them along to the
court. It's less work than you've done so far. The point is that you
won't do so because you already *know* that what you write here is
more likely to hurt him than help him. So why do you call it a
"defense"?
> against the scurrilous attacks by the mountain bikers. They have a gang
>mentality which I find truly reprehensible.
There you go then. "Scurrilous gang mentality" needs to be burned at
the stake, right? Lift your finger and tell the judge that, Mr.
Genius.
Wayne
Edward Dolan
<wmbjk...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:04ls06t1049biemsh...@4ax.com...
I have to laugh also. I have got all of you discussing me instead of him.
See how brilliant I am!
>> against the scurrilous attacks by the mountain bikers. They have a gang
>>mentality which I find truly reprehensible.
>
> There you go then. "Scurrilous gang mentality" needs to be burned at
> the stake, right? Lift your finger and tell the judge that, Mr.
> Genius.
I hope and trust that Mr. Vandeman will return shortly to these newsgroups
to take all of you to the woodshed for a good lesson in manners.