Chenowth; felon or victim?
John
If Mr. Chenowth would have been raised in a Christian environment, he
wouldn't have falsified those records.
Tom Paterson
>If Mr. Chenowth would have been raised in a Christian environment, he
>wouldn't have falsified those records.
>
If he'd settled for a Miata, maybe he wouldn't be going to prison. Happy
Hollidays. --Tom Paterson
Brad Anders
"John" <jste...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:46f15032.01122...@posting.google.com...
> http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/1680.0.html
>
> If Mr. Chenowth would have been raised in a Christian environment, he
> wouldn't have falsified those records.
What if he'd been brought up in a Holy Roller environment?
Brad Anders
Gerard Lanois
Gerard Lanois
"Voight denies ever having discussed such an arrangement...".
Yeah, I'd like to hear her say that UNDER OATH. LOL!
-Gerard
steeper
what happens to Alter boys? Or have you forgotten who Jerry Fallwell and
Jessica Fahn are? Get real, Christians commit just as many crimes as
non-believers...
"John" <jste...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:46f15032.01122...@posting.google.com...
brian trdina
<dunnlikedinner@(no spam)home.com> wrote >
Dude ?!?! Are you serious? "Christian environment". Do I need to tell you
> what happens to Alter boys? Or have you forgotten who Jerry Fallwell and
> Jessica Fahn are? Get real, Christians commit just as many crimes as
> non-believers...
Calm down there, chicko. I pretty sure that he was kidding.
Charles F. Pelkey
Actually, I believe "John" is referring to one "Jessica Hahn." She was
the church secretary (and later star of such great christian
programming as "Howard Stern's Butt Bongo Fiesta") whose affair with
the weeping minister of the airwaves televangilist Jim Bakker led to
the collapse of his television and amusement park empire in 1987.
Bakker, who later served a lengthy prison term for fraud, should not
be confused with that other fine Christian John refers to, Jerry
Falwell, most recently famous for pointing out that the fault for the
attack on the World Trade Center sits on the shoulders of feminists,
liberals and the ACLU.
Now, what was that passage I'm trying to remember? Oh yeah.... Luke
6:42 "Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull
out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the
beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam
out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the
mote that is in thy brother's eye."
sn...@ccountry.net
pages to download from VNews' site. On a 45 kbps connection it took 4 minutes
per page to load... fer crying out loud isn't that a felony in all but three
states?
Brad Anders
"Gerard Lanois" <ger...@NOSPAMlanois.com> wrote in message
news:m3g060v...@localhost.localdomain...
> "Brad Anders" <pban...@home.com> writes:
>
> > What if he'd been brought up in a Holy Roller environment?
>
> Are they anything like Kreitlers?
Similar. They rotate slower, but they make a lot more noise.
Brad Anders
Brian Lafferty
have gone on for so long a time without others in collusion within EDS. I
also hope that Marty N.'s books are in order and that he has paid income
taxes on ALL of his earnings. Maybe this all has something to do with
marty's testiness lately?
Brian Lafferty
"John" <jste...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:46f15032.01122...@posting.google.com...
Neacalban1
>> wouldn't have falsified those records.
>>
Just great. that made me laugh so hard I puked all over my keyboard.
The teenage girl who pulled out in front of me and sent me and my bike flying
20 some years ago, then drove off. She came back a few minutes later, claiming
she did it because she was "a good christian". That might or might not be, but
I suspect the sight of three witnesses in her rear-view mirror had a lot to do
with her return.
brian trdina
article, but here's my take on it: Assuming that the facts in the article
are accurate, nick chenworth isn't a very bright guy. Even if he had some
tacit understanding with Alberthat, Voight, etc. that he was going to
fradulantly bill to suppliment Marty's salary, HE'S still the guy doing the
dirty work and, as such, is the one who's going to eat the shit sandwich
when the house of cards collapses (which is exactly what happened).
The point that Marty ought to be sure that things are up to snuff with his
records is also right on...
"John" <jste...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:46f15032.01122...@posting.google.com...
Rob Oberbeck
for our sport.
Brian Lafferty
Brian Lafferty
"Rob Oberbeck" <robe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C27C6BA...@mindspring.com...
AlexiG
equipment".
I've seen some of that stuff.....Corima bikes and wheels, all kinds of
cool, aero equipment, clothing, helmets, etc...all top-notch stuff.
Does anybody thats close to any of these "players" know how they are
going to liquidate it??....RBM, auctions????
AlexiG.
Carl Sundquist
Special Ed will buy it all,
-or-
it'll be sold off through Squeeky's "Buy Low, Sell High" House o' Bikes.
Merry Christmas to you, Stacy, and the kids.
"AlexiG" <als...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3C28187A...@bellsouth.net...
Dave Hansen
"AlexiG" <als...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:3C28187A...@bellsouth.net...
> I'd like to know what they plan on doing with that "warehouse full of
> equipment".
> I've seen some of that stuff.....Corima bikes and wheels, all kinds of
> cool, aero equipment, clothing, helmets, etc...all top-notch stuff.
> Does anybody thats close to any of these "players" know how they are
> going to liquidate it??....RBM, auctions????
> AlexiG.
Most, if not all of that stuff was sold a long time ago.
Dave
Charles F. Pelkey
wrote:
>I'd like to know what they plan on doing with that "warehouse full of
>equipment".
>I've seen some of that stuff.....Corima bikes and wheels, all kinds of
>cool, aero equipment, clothing, helmets, etc...all top-notch stuff.
>Does anybody thats close to any of these "players" know how they are
>going to liquidate it??....RBM, auctions????
>AlexiG.
>
According to Chris Carlson, the company is now looking to sell it off.
He was disappointed to hear that he had missed this year's VeloSwap.
I'll try to post a story when and if a decision is made.
Charles
Fred F. Fredly
in most states now.
-Fred
sn...@ccountry.net wrote in news:3C27A0F4...@ccountry.net:
Café-de-Colombia Latté
You mean like Jim Baker from PTL?
Christmas Café
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
Saint Nicholas contends, then how come he can't get a decent paying job on a
road team or with another sponsor? It seems as if the track riders all thought
they were worth six figures when the reality is few people give a damn about
the guy's track exploits from a marketing standpoint. Apparently all the track
riders in Texas were legends in their own mind and dry humping Marty's quads.
Nick deserves to go get gang-raped in prison because the guy clearly stole
significant funds from EDS and spent it on his idol worshipping of Marty.
Marty Nothstein has little value outside of being the recipient of embezzled
funds. Track riding ain't the gravy train of marketing demographics that
people in Trexlertown think it is. Even JDASHME Carnie knows back-hoe drivers
are worth more than somebody who goes around in a circle.
Why did Chenworth want to fund Marty's lifestyle so badly? Answer: Marty was
the only mechanism by which Chenworth could use as a front to EDS to launder
his money to buy his Lambourghini and Ferraris.
Now Chenworth is going to get ass-raped like the punk he is.
Christmas Café
Nativity Scene Designer
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
Cafe
brian trdina
So let me understand where you're coming from: Its okay to take drugs to
cheat people out of money, but when you falsify some receipts to do it, then
you deserve to be gang raped.
Okay, I think I've got it...
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote in message
news:3C29175F...@cafe.com...
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
I don't recall ever saying it was ok to take drugs because I would have
clarified that with more details if I did.. But I don't see anything wrong in
taking legal drugs now that you bring it up
Caffeine is a drug, mind you. So is EPO and steroids. It's only illegal to
take them without a prescritpion.
And if you don't get caught with them in your system, the UCI rules do not even
say they are 'against the rules' to take while training. The rules only say
you cannot be caught with them in your system during a race.
Don't be adding other interpretations to rules. The fact is, you can abide by
all rules and laws, and still take EPO, caffeine, and steroids. Just make sure
you invent an acceptable excuse like Jan Ullrich's lifelong asthma.
Can you imagine a guy who can win the Olympic Gold medal and basically ride
anyone inoff his wheel on the planet claiming to have a chronic respiratory
problem so bad as to justify steroids throughout his career? Talk about
inventive rationalizations.
Anyhow, what's good enough for the CEO's at Telekom and UCI is good enough for
me.
Café
Trainer to Lead Reindeer, Rudolf Guiliani
Carl Sundquist
paragraphs earlier you state that you don't see anything wrong as long as
they have a prescription? You are not recognizing the difference between
legal and banned substances.
AFAIK, in order to be an Olympic sport, an international governing body must
conform to IOC banned drug standards. This includes out of competition
testing, which is supposed to only screen for (again, AFAIK) anabolic
steroids, not stimulants or corticoids. Granted, these don't take place very
often, but if the UCI is in compliance with IOC standards, you _can_ be
penalized for using certain substances out of competition.
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote in message
news:3C292A8F...@cafe.com...
Cafe de Colombia
I do not condemn Herr Ullrich from a legal or rules standpoint. I only intimate
that I do not believe he suffers from asthma. Statistically speaking,
professional cyclists suffer from more respiratory-related ailments than 65 year
old asbestos patients with full blown pulmonary edema, if you read the UCI
exemptions.
I'm not sure if it's possible to have a breathing problem of any measurable
significance and yet the only guy who can beat you on a bike is Lance
Armstrong. It just sounds hokey to me.
Jan justifies his use of corticosteroids with an exemption medical certificate.
But it's obvious that a doctor will sign anything and the UCI is not concerned
about the legitimacy of any such diagnosis.
I don't condemn Jan, since he is operating within the permissable latitude of
the rules. I am just pointing out that I see no 'real' difference between
taking steroids for performance enhancement reasons (illegal) and having a
doctor's exemption for it, many of which are abject fraud.
Of course there exists the possibility that 60% of Euro pros suffer from
bronchitis, asthmas, and allergies so severe that they need steroids to
breathe. Yet if you ask around your local town, I bet you almost nobody takes
steroids to help them breathe.
I find it interesting that all these elite athletes with the most well-developed
cardio vascular systems out of any human cohort is simultaneously claiming they
are categorically the sickest. And of course it just so happens the medication
they need to fix it also might help them ride faster. Just a coincidence of
course.
As for out-of-competition testing, I have never heard of any US cyclist, male or
female, who has been recently tested out of competition domestically. And if
they were, they were probably tipped off well in advance, making such a test
moot.
If you told me that US pro cyclists were routinely tested out of competition,
and those results reported publicly, I would believe it. But I'm pretty sure
one could be a domestic US pro for 10 years and never be tested once out of
competition. That is simply too rare to call "a system."
There is a lot of incentive for the NGB and even the USOC to only make drug
testing a facade to appease the corporate images of those who sponsor the
respective sports, regardless of what the rules state.
This is reflected in the off-season punishments of 1-2 months for road pros that
always seem to start in late October and end before February 1st (i.e.
Davidenko).
So it's just a rouse to make the public and corporate sponsors think they really
want to crack down on drugs.
At least in Europe, they raid hotels. Too bad the sentences always end up being
suspended and fines that amount to less than a first time DWI offense.
Cafe
Cafe de Colombia
Cafe
Victor E. Lap
>This ain't Rishi's brother, is it?
>
>Cafe
"Rishi"? Wasn't he Alexi Grewal's younger brother? Rode mountain bikes I
think.
V.E.L
brian trdina
"Cafe de Colombia" <ca...@colombia.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> I don't condemn Jan, since he is operating within the permissable latitude
of
> the rules. I am just pointing out that I see no 'real' difference between
> taking steroids for performance enhancement reasons (illegal) and having a
> doctor's exemption for it, many of which are abject fraud.
Which was my point, you freakin' douchebag. You don't condem some cyclist
for skirting the doping rules, but you think that someone who cheats by
forging receipts should be gang-raped.
Face it, java, you're all over the map...
Tony Szurly
> At least in Europe, they raid hotels. Too bad the sentences always end up being
> suspended and fines that amount to less than a first time DWI offense.
>
But then you get to ride for Fassa Bortolo, the Oakland Raiders of pro
cycling!
Carl Sundquist
>
> Of course there exists the possibility that 60% of Euro pros suffer from
> bronchitis, asthmas, and allergies so severe that they need steroids to
> breathe. Yet if you ask around your local town, I bet you almost nobody
takes
> steroids to help them breathe.
>
> I find it interesting that all these elite athletes with the most
well-developed
> cardio vascular systems out of any human cohort is simultaneously claiming
they
> are categorically the sickest. And of course it just so happens the
medication
> they need to fix it also might help them ride faster. Just a coincidence
of
> course.
>
It is an interesting situation. On one hand, few people have their
cardiovascular systems taxed to the degree of elite athletes, not just
cyclists. I suspect that the range of athletes who do a lot of work
anaerobically would have similar results, that this is not something that
occurs with unusual frequency uniquely in cyclists. I would expect that if
your average person on the street were to do physical tasks similar to the
efforts put out by elite athletes, the percentages would not be so
different. It is also possible that the average person is simply not in good
enough fitness or incapable of working hard enough to exert to a level where
exercise induced bronchospasms occur. Also, the average person is more
likely to shrug it off, rather than to see a doctor, get tested to verify
EIB, then take meds to minimize the effects of EIB. In addition to having
the most well-developed cardiovascular systems, these athletes are also the
most sensitive to decreased performance of the CV system, and the most
willing to seek treatment for it.
On the other hand, I see this as not unlike the Casey Martin/golf cart issue
the PGA had to deal with several years ago. Do we recognize the
inhalers/golf cart as non-performance enhancing, or should we simply say,
"Hey, they have this affliction. It's part of the way their bodies perform.
Live with it. Its part of the game."
> As for out-of-competition testing, I have never heard of any US cyclist,
male or
> female, who has been recently tested out of competition domestically. And
if
> they were, they were probably tipped off well in advance, making such a
test
> moot.
>
> If you told me that US pro cyclists were routinely tested out of
competition,
> and those results reported publicly, I would believe it. But I'm pretty
sure
> one could be a domestic US pro for 10 years and never be tested once out
of
> competition. That is simply too rare to call "a system."
>
Since I've been out of the elite cycling loop for about 5 years, I can't
comment on who or how many cyclists have been tested. I suspect it probably
isn't much more than 10 per year. I don't know if this is a factor in the
frequency of testing, but in the past, riders have complained about the
disruption that going for a random test requires. It's not like some USOC
Drug Control guy knocks on your door, follows you into your bathroom, gives
you a plastic cup, you fill it and he goes away. What happens is this:
*theoretically* not only are you required to tell your NGB of your
whereabouts for any given day that you are not home so that the USOC can
send you a letter by UPS that you have to sign for, which acknowledges that
you will show up at an approved testing site within 24 hours, but depending
on where you live, an approved test site may be 100, 200, or more miles
away, and you have to call, set up an appointment and get yourself there
(and back).
I don't think any names are released to the public from the random testing,
so the best you can probably hope for is to get a breakdown of the number of
out of competition (ooc) tests per sport per year.
Incidentally, I don't think the athletes are "tipped off well in advance"
for two reasons: One, since the ooc tests are specifically for anabolic
steroids and drugs of that nature, it is supposed to take at least 4 weeks
for anabolics to clear the system. That seems like a lot of advance notice
for a random test. It would also probably disrupt that athlete's training
cycle quite a bit. Two, I was the subject of an ooc test in 1994 or 1995.
Unfortunately, the USOC didn't bother to check with USAC as to my
whereabouts because they sent the notice to my old address in Miami, instead
of just walking about 1/4 mile from their offices at the OTC to the dorm
room where I was staying at the time. Call it a conspiracy if you will, but
it would have been a conspiracy without my knowledge. The USOC later
actually threatened to have me suspended for not showing up for the test (my
old roommate had signed for the notice letter in Miami), until I wrote them
a letter explaining what had happened and basically telling them what morons
they had been. I had actually been tested out of competition prior to the
Olympics in 1988 while I was staying at the OTC.
Remember, this is an extension of USOC drug testing protocol, so the USOC
could probably give a rat's ass if domestic pros are tested, if they are not
considered "Olympic potential".
Henry Chang
Pelkey) wrote:
>should not
>be confused with that other fine Christian John refers to, Jerry
>Falwell, most recently famous for pointing out that the fault for the
>attack on the World Trade Center sits on the shoulders of feminists,
>liberals and the ACLU.
Has Falwell been tallking to CommutrBob?
Henry
Mike Gladu
all my points.
In article <u2nvqge...@corp.supernews.com>, "Carl Sundquist"
<car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
> It is an interesting situation. On one hand, few people have their
> cardiovascular systems taxed to the degree of elite athletes, not just
> cyclists. I suspect that the range of athletes who do a lot of work
> anaerobically would have similar results, that this is not something that
> occurs with unusual frequency uniquely in cyclists. I would expect that if
> your average person on the street were to do physical tasks similar to the
> efforts put out by elite athletes, the percentages would not be so
> different. It is also possible that the average person is simply not in good
> enough fitness or incapable of working hard enough to exert to a level where
> exercise induced bronchospasms occur. Also, the average person is more
> likely to shrug it off, rather than to see a doctor, get tested to verify
> EIB, then take meds to minimize the effects of EIB. In addition to having
> the most well-developed cardiovascular systems, these athletes are also the
> most sensitive to decreased performance of the CV system, and the most
> willing to seek treatment for it.
>
> On the other hand, I see this as not unlike the Casey Martin/golf cart issue
> the PGA had to deal with several years ago. Do we recognize the
> inhalers/golf cart as non-performance enhancing, or should we simply say,
> "Hey, they have this affliction. It's part of the way their bodies perform.
> Live with it. Its part of the game."
If inhalers are used by someone who has never shown symptoms of asthma or
bronchitis are used improperly, they are clearly illegal.
The problem is, in Ullrich's case it is very likely he has at times shown
symptoms of Exercise Induced Bronchospasms.
Do we accept the onset of EIB as a his natural human performance limit, or
allow him to solve the problem with an inhaler and ride on? The UCI
believes in the latter.
> Since I've been out of the elite cycling loop for about 5 years, I can't
> comment on who or how many cyclists have been tested. I suspect it probably
> isn't much more than 10 per year. I don't know if this is a factor in the
> frequency of testing, but in the past, riders have complained about the
> disruption that going for a random test requires. It's not like some USOC
> Drug Control guy knocks on your door, follows you into your bathroom, gives
> you a plastic cup, you fill it and he goes away. What happens is this:
> *theoretically* not only are you required to tell your NGB of your
> whereabouts for any given day that you are not home so that the USOC can
> send you a letter by UPS that you have to sign for, which acknowledges that
> you will show up at an approved testing site within 24 hours, but depending
> on where you live, an approved test site may be 100, 200, or more miles
> away, and you have to call, set up an appointment and get yourself there
> (and back).
My two examples:
George Hincapie told me once never to let anyone accept Registered Letters
from USAC while you're away from home. Someone signed his name on the out
of competition drug testing request forms, which started the 24 hour clock
ticking. He was in Europe at the time and those papers were at home in,
what, NC? He missed the date and was automatically suspended for failing a
drug test. It was resolved quickly in his favor, but it helps that the
Federation was on his side, and had no 'issues' with him. It could have
been much worse if he wasn't one of their golden boys at the time.
After the ATRA event in Colorado Springs this year we saw what happens
when a random test catches up a traveling rider. Our enigmatic Worlds
match sprint silver medalist Tammy Thomas had been fighting to get on the
National Team and to Colorado to train for quite some time in her effort
to get to Worlds. Having got what she wanted, and then uncorking a
super-fast 500m TT in competition, what the wagging tongues on hand were
making jokes about - happened. Before she could leave at the end of the
competition she was met at the velodrome by someone from the drug testing
staff for her random test.
The results of these tests are announced publicly by the IOC and UCI on a
regular basis. Just like Annette Hanson's a few weeks ago. The wires are
usually the first to release the info as they are on constant drug-watch.
> Two, I was the subject of an ooc test in 1994 or 1995.
> Unfortunately, the USOC didn't bother to check with USAC as to my
> whereabouts because they sent the notice to my old address in Miami, instead
> of just walking about 1/4 mile from their offices at the OTC to the dorm
> room where I was staying at the time. Call it a conspiracy if you will, but
> it would have been a conspiracy without my knowledge. The USOC later
> actually threatened to have me suspended for not showing up for the test (my
> old roommate had signed for the notice letter in Miami), until I wrote them
> a letter explaining what had happened and basically telling them what morons
> they had been. I had actually been tested out of competition prior to the
> Olympics in 1988 while I was staying at the OTC.
>
> Remember, this is an extension of USOC drug testing protocol, so the USOC
> could probably give a rat's ass if domestic pros are tested, if they are not
> considered "Olympic potential".
How many domestic pros are there even? 100 total? The USOC probably tests
them only once every four years, and only then if they make the team.
They have more to fear from the UCI if they do well in events.
In any case, wouldn't you think every pro cycling contract in this day and
age is sure to have a mandatory drug test and to threaten random testing
as a condition of continued employment?
Mike G.
-
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rest in Peace - Nicole Reinhart --- June 3, 1976 - September 17, 2000
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gladu, bicycling photojournalist Infinite HangTime Photography
webmaster of "the 'drome" 281.788.8035 & 713.681.6293
http://www.velodrome.com/ Email: velo...@mac.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
John
to it. He wasn't responsible for his actions, evil forces and heavy
make up took over.
Chenowth on the other hand, was just bad at white collar crime.
Café-de-Colombia Latté <java...@cafe.com> wrote in message news:<9C7W7.329894$5A3.12...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com>...
warren
<velodrome-281...@user-33qs1m2.dialup.mindspring.com>, Mike
Gladu <velo...@mac.com> wrote:
> After the ATRA event in Colorado Springs this year we saw what happens
> when a random test catches up a traveling rider. Our enigmatic Worlds
> match sprint silver medalist Tammy Thomas had been fighting to get on the
> National Team and to Colorado to train for quite some time in her effort
> to get to Worlds. Having got what she wanted, and then uncorking a
> super-fast 500m TT in competition, what the wagging tongues on hand were
> making jokes about - happened. Before she could leave at the end of the
> competition she was met at the velodrome by someone from the drug testing
> staff for her random test.
I assumed she was tested again this year because of her positive test
in 2000 at the "Olympic Trials". I'm not sure, but wasn't her positive
test result for too much male hormone of some kind?
-WG
Mike Gladu
> I assumed she was tested again this year because of her positive test
> in 2000 at the "Olympic Trials". I'm not sure, but wasn't her positive
> test result for too much male hormone of some kind?
>
> -WG
Whatever that one was for, it was never served. I heard a lawsuit or maybe
the threat of one made it go away.
I'd be the first skeptic on the block to require a special test for women
who test positive for male hormones. One that determines their natural
base levels. Same for unusually high hematocrits in males.
Mike G.
-
IWantToBeOnARealTeam
>
> > I assumed she was tested again this year because of her positive test
> > in 2000 at the "Olympic Trials". I'm not sure, but wasn't her positive
> > test result for too much male hormone of some kind?
> >
> > -WG
>
> Whatever that one was for, it was never served. I heard a lawsuit or maybe
> the threat of one made it go away.
I believe the story
> I'd be the first skeptic on the block to require a special test for women
> who test positive for male hormones. One that determines their natural
> base levels. Same for unusually high hematocrits in males.
>
> Mike G.
I thought the story went:
1. Tammy Thomas got second at the "Trials" and didn't get picked-
2. She raised a stink about the Olympic Team selection procedures and
threatend a lawsuit-like a few other athletes!
3. The feds busted out the positive test and said 'well miss thomas,
even if you did win your case you couldn't go cause you're on
testosterone'
4. A little quid pro quo action w/the attorneys-no Thomas vs. USAC
lawsuit for no USAC vs. Thomas doping case.
So a doped athlete goes on to represent the US in 2001 and wins a
medal. Notice how USAC makes no mention of her positive case in their
little propaganda magazine and they are happy to have her now that
she's won them a medal. Just goes to show that USAC is yet another NGB
that is UCI prodrug complinent.
Donations to hungryexmercurypro are a tax deduction. Donate lots,
donate frequently.
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
I am in fact not all over the map but very consistent in what I say.
What Jan Ullrich does is legal by both UCI rules and the laws of whatever
country where he gets those prescription drugs. I acknowledge that his conduct
is legal, but fault the rules for allowing rampant indiscriminate medical
exemptions that only seem to be amendable to treatment from
performannce-enhancing drugs.
And what Chenowth did was nothing but illegal conduct (wire fraud and mail
fraud) that is NOT within any rules. Ullrich is not breaking any rule or
law. He's just pushing the envelope.
A judge determined Chenowth stole $1.3 million in what prosecutors allege was
an ongoing criminal "enterprise." That means Chenowth had many months, if not
years, to stop what he was doing upon reflection or change of heart.
The proof of Chenowth's intent and guilt are in the forged receipts for 130mm
cranks and lack of accounting for significant funds. I submit to you that
proper accounting would have shown Chenowth pocketing at least $500,000 in cash
himself in an intentional money laundering scheme that used Marty's Gold Medal
"worth" as the cover story to everyone to justify the fraudulant invoices. The
first 'out' for a con artist is to claim ignorance to "accounting skills." But
it's an ignorance borne of intentional deceipt and nothing less. It's actually
a pre-determined defense in the event they are caught. What's better than
having fraudulant receipts? Answer: having no receipts. Fraudulant receipts
can always be proven to be fraudulant. No receipts cannot be traced (he didn't
have many legitimate receipts to submit anyway). A con artist knows this. It
appears that he then used the money derived from those non-existent expenses to
buy his exotic cars. This was all done intentionally, and in what can only be
seen as an elaborate scheme of intentional bilking. The claim that
hand-written receipts for cycling products worth a fraction of $1.3 million as
reasonable accounting is ludicrous. I could liquidiate the entire Nashbar
warehouse for $1.3 million and the receipt would be the size of the legal files
the US Attorney's Office has on organized crime figures for the past 2
decades. Further proof is that Little Nicky would be unable to accomplish
this fraud without using Marty's $600,000 salary to do it (itself considered
another count of fraud), which of course Chenowth is claiming he negotiated
himself without telling anyone else in his company or USAC, despite submitting
false receipts to the same people he was getting the money from.
The fact is, Marty Nothstein was an unwitting accomplice to fraud. His only
use to Nicholas was to be the pizza parlor to launder money. I bet you
Nicholas earned just as much as Marty. When you subtract $1.3 million from
Marty's claimed salary of $600,000, you are left with a balance of $700,000.
Assuming that most cycling products were donated by cycling suppliers and
travel expenses came to $100,000-$150,000, that leaves the better part of
$500,000 for Little Nicky to buy his Countach and Testatrossas.
I am allowed to agree with something that is legal but might be unethical
conduct. Doing so is neither hypocritical or acting "all over the map" as you
say. I clearly stated that Jan Ullrich is engaging in legal conduct and Little
Nicky wasn't.
I probably stepped out of bounds witht he gang-rape comment. Jay Leno and
Howard Stern say similar things all the time.
Café
brian trdina
I agree with your assessment, both of Chenowth and of the stuff that pros do
to push the envelope of legality (e.g., Jan taking medication for asthma).
Actually, I suspect that Chenowth WAS given the tacit go ahead to suppliment
marty's and his own income by the powers that be (abrtheal and voight,
perhaps). The problem is that he was the one that had to commit the crime,
and those guys were smart enough to give themselves deniability. When the
management changed and cycling sponsorship became a subject of scrutiny, he
was the only one left holding the bag of shit. Combine that with the fact
that the guy was drawing needles attention to himself (I mean, a fararri,
c'mon...), the conclusion that I come away with is that the guy was really
stupid.
Then again, most criminals are.
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote in message
news:3C2D326A...@cafe.com...
Amit
The depositions supplied are long and tedious but it shows you how the
scam worked. Skimming through them you get an idea of who the cast of
characters really is.
> Actually, I suspect that Chenowth WAS given the tacit go ahead to suppliment
> marty's and his own income by the powers that be (abrtheal and voight,
> perhaps).
I doubt this. According to Alberthal MN shouldn't even have been hired
for the $20k/yr. More likley NC wanted to have MN on his team, or at
least be associated with an athlete of his profile. Alberthal hardly
knows who Nothstein is (he seems to thik MN and NC are in the same
league) and how does USAC benefit if MN has anything to do with EDS or
not (except it freeing up Marty from other racing he'd have to do to
pay the bills and concentrate on bringing home medals)? If anything it
cuts into USAC's piece of the pie.
Just follow your nose. The two people who benefitted most from the
scam are NC and MN, and only NC was in a position to get the money. NC
didn't need MN for his sloppy, simple scam.
You can't blame MN, after all who would turn down $200K/yr to ride
around in circles ? Poor guy has to ride Solano and sixes all over
Europe for money these days. But he must've wondered why TRW, a one
man operation (and various others at times) was paying his 200k/yr EDS
salary ?
> The problem is that he was the one that had to commit the crime,
> and those guys were smart enough to give themselves deniability.
NC certainly committed the crime, but he had helpers. But it doesn't
seems like the helpers (like TRW) gained anything - so they might not
have realized the scam they were a part of. Though I think Brett
Hydrick must've thought what NC had him doing was pretty shady.
> When the
> management changed and cycling sponsorship became a subject of scrutiny, he
> was the only one left holding the bag of shit. Combine that with the fact
> that the guy was drawing needles attention to himself (I mean, a fararri,
> c'mon...), the conclusion that I come away with is that the guy was really
> stupid.
>
> Then again, most criminals are.
>
Yup, I think he was also slightly delusional. What company would
sponsor a bunch of aging regional class track bike riders to the tune
of $300k/yr so they could strut around like pros?
Sounds like NC's done a lot of good and a lot of bad for riders and
the racing community in his area. He had a good job and an opportunity
to help out a lot of bike riders but his ego, greed and total lack of
judgement put the whole thing in the shitter.
-Amit Ghosh
Mike Murray
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote:
> Can you imagine a guy who can win the Olympic Gold medal and basically
ride
> anyone inoff his wheel on the planet claiming to have a chronic
respiratory
> problem so bad as to justify steroids throughout his career?
Yes, easily. Inhaled steroids are indicated for all people with reactive
airways who need to take beta agonists on a daily basis. The incidence of
reactive airways in athletes is higher than in the general population. Use
of inhaled steroids would provide no performance benefit unless you had
asthma.
Mike Murray MD
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
I think a Lambourghini is more ostentacious than a Ferarri, so I will defer to
the Italians on this board to address this issue in more detail.
I'm not sure of USAC's involvement in the scheme for several reasons. One,
there was no evidence and Chenowth only seemed to imply that Lisa Voight knew
about it in a general sense that did not involve specific numbers.
Plus Lisa Voight said that USAC had no motivation to want to pay Marty anything
more than $20,000 because Marty was going to ride for the US Olympic Team in
Atlanta regardless of whether he had to go to Japan to train or stay in the US
to do it. It's not like Marty could renounce his US citizenship and use that as
a threat to anyone at USAC to jump ship and ride for another country.
Plus, Lisa and Marty didn't appear to like each other all that much. I'm not
sure she would put herself at risk to get someone she probably doesn't like a
six figure salary.
I'd hate to implicate a pregnant woman in a crime without more evidence.
And finally, even if Lisa knew everything, she could come right out and say
that and it would not be illegal because she played no active role in its
execution. She had no clout. Nor did she personally benefit monetarily like
Chenowth did. There is no evidence that she took even a nickel, although I once
gave her a Lincoln as a tip after we shared a motel room.
Believe it or not, I can have knowledge to a bank robbery that was about to
occur and say nothing, and that is not illegal if I keep my mouth shut. A
conspiracy charge implies Lisa would have to have an active role in the
planning and/or execution of a criminal act and not mere "knowledge of.."
So it would be tough to even implicate The Mona Lisa.
Café
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
make a distinction between a bona fide medical ailment (i.e. asthma,
bronchitis, etc.) and anything that might decrease an athlete's performance
related to their breathing that can only be induced under extreme aerobic
efforts.
I would say that any ailment that is induced only under elite-level stresses of
a professional bike race simply cannot be called a medical condition. It's
just called a bike race;)
If these same pros had breathing problems as children or in the off-season,
then I might reconsider. But my gut feeling is they don't.
But let's face it - is it really possible to finish a pro race and NOT have
serious problem breathing AT SOME POINT. If you don't have any breathing
problems such as lung pain or respiratory spasms of a significant nature, then
you are likely not in a pro bike race.
So there is absolutely no credibility to the argument that respiratory diseases
only manifes themselves under the most highly stressful aeorbic activity known
to mankind. Any piercing lung burn and respiratory spasms a racer experiences
in the Tour de France is likely due to nothing but the pace and steepness of
the climb!
To say otherwise would be like saying boxers suffer from the rare medical
condition of involuntary facial pain unrelated to Oscar de la Hoya's right
uppercut.
Café
Will Smith's Cut Man
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> It is an interesting situation. On one hand, few people have their
> cardiovascular systems taxed to the degree of elite athletes, not just
> cyclists. I suspect that the range of athletes who do a lot of work
> anaerobically would have similar results, that this is not something that
> occurs with unusual frequency uniquely in cyclists. I would expect that if
> your average person on the street were to do physical tasks similar to the
> efforts put out by elite athletes, the percentages would not be so
> different. It is also possible that the average person is simply not in good
> enough fitness or incapable of working hard enough to exert to a level where
> exercise induced bronchospasms occur. Also, the average person is more
> likely to shrug it off, rather than to see a doctor, get tested to verify
> EIB, then take meds to minimize the effects of EIB. In addition to having
> the most well-developed cardiovascular systems, these athletes are also the
> most sensitive to decreased performance of the CV system, and the most
> willing to seek treatment for it.
>
> On the other hand, I see this as not unlike the Casey Martin/golf cart issue
> the PGA had to deal with several years ago. Do we recognize the
> inhalers/golf cart as non-performance enhancing, or should we simply say,
> "Hey, they have this affliction. It's part of the way their bodies perform.
> Live with it. Its part of the game."
The Supreme Court ruled that a golf cart verses walking was not a part of pro
golfing despite the PGA saying otherwise.
>
>
> > As for out-of-competition testing, I have never heard of any US cyclist,
> male or
> > female, who has been recently tested out of competition domestically. And
> if
> > they were, they were probably tipped off well in advance, making such a
> test
> > moot.
> >
> > If you told me that US pro cyclists were routinely tested out of
> competition,
> > and those results reported publicly, I would believe it. But I'm pretty
> sure
> > one could be a domestic US pro for 10 years and never be tested once out
> of
> > competition. That is simply too rare to call "a system."
> >
> Since I've been out of the elite cycling loop for about 5 years, I can't
> comment on who or how many cyclists have been tested. I suspect it probably
> isn't much more than 10 per year.
10 per year comes to like 1.7 guys per month, right?......this is pushing the
limit of statistical credibility. If I wre a cyclist, I might roll the dice on
those kind of odds. Especially if the procedures allowed me to invent a
quickie vacation story up that put me in Cancun when the UPS man came knockin'.
> I don't know if this is a factor in the
> frequency of testing, but in the past, riders have complained about the
> disruption that going for a random test requires. It's not like some USOC
> Drug Control guy knocks on your door, follows you into your bathroom, gives
> you a plastic cup, you fill it and he goes away. What happens is this:
> *theoretically* not only are you required to tell your NGB of your
> whereabouts for any given day that you are not home so that the USOC can
> send you a letter by UPS that you have to sign for, which acknowledges that
> you will show up at an approved testing site within 24 hours, but depending
> on where you live, an approved test site may be 100, 200, or more miles
> away, and you have to call, set up an appointment and get yourself there
> (and back).
>
I bet you those testing facilities don't even check ID....
>
> I don't think any names are released to the public from the random testing,
> so the best you can probably hope for is to get a breakdown of the number of
> out of competition (ooc) tests per sport per year.
How come this info isn't on the website? Doesn't Colorado comply with the
Sunshine Laws.
> Incidentally, I don't think the athletes are "tipped off well in advance"
> for two reasons: One, since the ooc tests are specifically for anabolic
> steroids and drugs of that nature, it is supposed to take at least 4 weeks
> for anabolics to clear the system. That seems like a lot of advance notice
> for a random test. It would also probably disrupt that athlete's training
> cycle quite a bit. Two, I was the subject of an ooc test in 1994 or 1995.
Did you get a hot female nurse to see you drop trou?
>
> Unfortunately, the USOC didn't bother to check with USAC as to my
> whereabouts because they sent the notice to my old address in Miami, instead
> of just walking about 1/4 mile from their offices at the OTC to the dorm
> room where I was staying at the time.
Why didn't your roommate just arrange to have Gloria Estefan's submit her
urine?
> Call it a conspiracy if you will, but
> it would have been a conspiracy without my knowledge. The USOC later
> actually threatened to have me suspended for not showing up for the test (my
> old roommate had signed for the notice letter in Miami), until I wrote them
> a letter explaining what had happened and basically telling them what morons
> they had been. I had actually been tested out of competition prior to the
> Olympics in 1988 while I was staying at the OTC.
But didn't that USOC doctor - Wade Exum, I think is the fella - say that it was
routine procedure to ignore positives anyway? He definitely said that tons of
positives were never sanctioned.
Café
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
What Velonews reported is just the cover story...
I would like to apologize to the entire cycling community for this and ask for
everyone's forgiveneness.
Deep Café
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
Mike Murray wrote:
> "Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote:
> > Can you imagine a guy who can win the Olympic Gold medal and basically
> ride
> > anyone inoff his wheel on the planet claiming to have a chronic
> respiratory
> > problem so bad as to justify steroids throughout his career?
>
> Yes, easily. Inhaled steroids are indicated for all people with reactive
> airways who need to take beta agonists on a daily basis. The incidence of
> reactive airways in athletes is higher than in the general population.
Yeah, it's higher because they make it that way....asthma is a diagnosis of
convenience with no objective assessment other than the athlete "says so."
> Use
> of inhaled steroids would provide no performance benefit unless you had
> asthma.
>
> Mike Murray MD
Or, if you also used injectable steroid and then claimed that the positive in
your blood is exempted because of your inhaler (is this possible, doc?). And
I also have an honest disagreement with you that a bronchial dilator would not
be advantageous to an athlete under aerobic stress that does not have asthma.
It would still help vaso-dilate the airway blood exchange program, no?
Reversed and remanded back to the trial court for resentencing consistent with
this opinion.
Judge Café
Cafe-de-Colombia Latte
> How can you condemn Ullrich for using an inhaler for asthma when two
> paragraphs earlier you state that you don't see anything wrong as long as
> they have a prescription? You are not recognizing the difference between
> legal and banned substances.
I was consistent in my position that Ullrich was doing nothing illegal. Legal
substances may also be banned provided they have amedical exemption, or in the
case of certain drugs, in the manner in which they are injected even though a
test cannot tell the difference between mode of entry.
Tim Mullin
> I also have an honest disagreement with you that a bronchial dilator would
not
> be advantageous to an athlete under aerobic stress that does not have
asthma.
> It would still help vaso-dilate the airway blood exchange program, no?
Not from my experience. I have EIA, but only in very cold weather. The
problem is, I ride all winter long. Once in a while a hard effort will make
my airways close up tighter than a nun's coochie. So, when I go out on cold
days one of my wife's albuterol inhalers goes with me. It doesn't get used
often, but when it's needed, it works. So, one warm spring day I found
myself wondering, "What does this do when you're feeling good?" Being a man
of pseudoscience, I had to give it a try....it didn't do shit. Yeah, I know,
it's not a controlled study, just my experience, FWIW. Now, if you want a
good kick in the ass, wash a pseudophed down with a double espresso.
Carl Sundquist
> Those are all good points, Sunkist,T but the medical community would
likely
> make a distinction between a bona fide medical ailment (i.e. asthma,
> bronchitis, etc.) and anything that might decrease an athlete's
performance
> related to their breathing that can only be induced under extreme aerobic
> efforts.
>
The distinction would be made by who coined the term 'Exercise Induced
Bronchospasms' and whether the medical community recognizes it.
> I would say that any ailment that is induced only under elite-level
stresses of
> a professional bike race simply cannot be called a medical condition.
It's
> just called a bike race;)
Did you just make an emoticon? How can I take you seriously now?
What you've said has shifted your issue from ailments to physical
limitations. If it is an ailment that is limiting performance, then the
sentiment of the UCI is apparently to allow meds which overcome the ailment,
at least in the case of EIB. How do you feel about Vaughters not being able
to continue the TdF after getting stung? However, if the physical limitation
is slower recovery time, a hematocrit of less than 49.8 (you know I'm being
facetious here), or any number of physical 'deficiencies' which keep you
from performing like your competitor(s), then the prevailing sentiment is
that it is illegal (at least from a organized sports point of view) to
augment/overcome your physical limitations in that way. It can be a blurry
line, particularly depending on what point of view you present for your
argument, and there are many aspects of human performance over which to
argue.
On the particular subject of EIB, and remember I'm _not_ an informed member
of the medical community, I don't think there is a drug or combination of
drugs which will increase the actual volume of your lung capacity. EIB just
decreases what capacity you have and also restricts airflow in and out of
the lungs. No drug is going to make my normal lung capacity increase by a
liter or two.
> If these same pros had breathing problems as children or in the
off-season,
> then I might reconsider. But my gut feeling is they don't.
OK, here's where you can say I have a bias. I have been diagnosed as having
EIB. It developed later in my career (so did my allergies, but that's
another story). I had 'pursuiter hack' in Colorado Springs like all the
other pursuiters, but this isn't the same thing. I've had EIB kick in while
trying to push start a motorcycle in 75 degree weather. I've been tested
with a flowmeter and there is a significant, measurable difference between
normal and when EIB occurs. Is Ullrich the same as me? Who knows? I
certainly don't. It just kicks the question back to whether this is an
ailment or physical limitation and at what point to you restrict
supplementation to the body's natural processes. What about vitamins?
> But let's face it - is it really possible to finish a pro race and NOT
have
> serious problem breathing AT SOME POINT. If you don't have any breathing
> problems such as lung pain or respiratory spasms of a significant nature,
then
> you are likely not in a pro bike race.
Lung pain, sure. But what do you define as respiratory spasms?
> > On the other hand, I see this as not unlike the Casey Martin/golf cart
issue
> > the PGA had to deal with several years ago. Do we recognize the
> > inhalers/golf cart as non-performance enhancing, or should we simply
say,
> > "Hey, they have this affliction. It's part of the way their bodies
perform.
> > Live with it. Its part of the game."
>
> The Supreme Court ruled that a golf cart verses walking was not a part of
pro
> golfing despite the PGA saying otherwise.
I believe the argument the PGA presented was that in terms of physical
endurance, walking the course affected performance and thus CM was not being
subjected to the same physical stresses as his fellow competitors. What's
your opinion on this?
> > Since I've been out of the elite cycling loop for about 5 years, I can't
> > comment on who or how many cyclists have been tested. I suspect it
probably
> > isn't much more than 10 per year.
>
> 10 per year comes to like 1.7 guys per month, right?......this is pushing
the
> limit of statistical credibility. If I wre a cyclist, I might roll the
dice on
> those kind of odds. Especially if the procedures allowed me to invent a
> quickie vacation story up that put me in Cancun when the UPS man came
knockin'.
Remember, that number is _my_ guess, nothing official. But whatever the
number is, it apparently satisfies requirements all the way up the food
chain to the IOC. As for not making yourself available, I haven't read the
official protocol for random testing, so I'm not familiar with what
loopholes may exist.
> I bet you those testing facilities don't even check ID...
Post 9-11, it's pretty evident that if you wanted your brother or pal to get
a fake ID to cover for you in a drug test it wouldn't be hard to do. But
somewhere you have to make a balance between practical and effective. What
do you think about a DNA test (it worked for Lewinsky/Clinton) or a retinal
scan?
> > Call it a conspiracy if you will, but
> > it would have been a conspiracy without my knowledge. The USOC later
> > actually threatened to have me suspended for not showing up for the test
(my
> > old roommate had signed for the notice letter in Miami), until I wrote
them
> > a letter explaining what had happened and basically telling them what
morons
> > they had been. I had actually been tested out of competition prior to
the
> > Olympics in 1988 while I was staying at the OTC.
It was the responsibility of the Drug Control people to verify my
whereabouts with the USCF. That was their failure to do rather than just
print out a mailing label to my home address for UPS.
> But didn't that USOC doctor - Wade Exum, I think is the fella - say that
it was
> routine procedure to ignore positives anyway? He definitely said that
tons of
> positives were never sanctioned.
The ooc test I did was under the supervision of Dr. Robert Voy. He was the
one who busted Longo after her hour record rides in Colorado Springs.
Mike Murray
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote :
"...if you also used injectable steroid and then claimed that the positive
in your blood is exempted because of your inhaler (is this possible, doc?).
"
Claimed use of a topical corticosteroid could be used to explain the
presence of the steroid in urine testing. This was the case with Armstrong
and the use of steroid ointment for saddle sores. There is no blood testing
done for steroid use under current atheletic rules, although this is
certainly possible to do. You are correct that the urine test does not
distinquish route of administration so oral or injected use of the same
drug, which is prohibited, could be "explained" by claimed topical use. The
same would be true of a blood test. On the other hand there is no
demonstrated performance enhancement from use of corticosteroids by an
illegal route.
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> wrote further:
"....asthma is a diagnosis of convenience with no objective assessment other
than the athlete "says so.""
Although asthma is often diagnosed clinically with little objective
information it is certainly not a "diagnosis of convenience". Objective
pulmonary function testing is cheap and easy to do. It is often not done
since the cost, in terms of side effects and dollar value, of use of beta
agonists is small. Under current atheletic rules asthma is not diagnosed by
athelete "say so" but requires testimony from specific types of physicians.
Clearly it is true, however, that there are many athletes using beta agonist
who have not had objective testing and who have had minimal, if any,
physician evaluation.
"Cafe-de-Colombia Latte" <ja...@cafe.com> also wrote:
"And I also have an honest disagreement with you that a bronchial dilator
would not be advantageous to an athlete under aerobic stress that does not
have asthma. It would still help vaso-dilate the airway blood exchange
program, no?"
There are studies that have looked for and failed to find perforamnce
enhancement with the use of the allowed beta agonists in the absence of
broncospasm.
Mike Murray MD