Where are they now? --Jock Boyer?
Jeff Potter
Any good stories about what pros of yesterday are up to today?
Bike parts reps? Truck drivers?
--
Jeff Potter j...@glpbooks.BADMAIL.com delete '.BADMAIL' to reply
***"Out Your Backdoor": Friendly Magazine of DIY Adventure and Culture
http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb ... with new bookstore & bulletin board
And for you automated email spammers out there, here's the email addresses
of the current board of the Federal Communications Commission:
Chairman Reed Hundt: rhu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner James Quello: jqu...@fcc.gov
Commissioner Susan Ness: sn...@fcc.gov
Herb Dershowitz
--
___________________________________________
Herb Dershowitz @:) spec...@spacelab.net
~knife collector~bike rider~pipe smoker~
____ ,__o ,__o
____ _-\_<, _-\_<,
____ (*)/'(*) (*)/'(*)
-o-o===o--
__________ Summer ________ Winter _________
marcm
Herb Dershowitz wrote in message <35D991E4...@spacelab.net>...
>Isn't he the Boyer in Veltec-Boyer Sports?
>
marcm
LAUDIEN
>>
> They have since split ways and the company is now just Veltec Sports
I heard they split ways after Veltec chased him down in the last kilometer of a
big sales meeting.
Bob Schwartz
After years of experiencing this race through the printed word I
was thrilled to see the finish of the 1982 WC race on the "Sean
Kelly Story" videotape.
Boyer would not have stayed away regardless of Lemond's attack.
The bulk of the work in bringing him back was done by a Dutch
rider working for Kuiper and Raas. His bid was not completely
dead when Lemond went, but he was riding backwards at the time.
But that's my take on it. After debating it in blind fashion for
years we can finally check it out for ourselves.
Bob "Take a look" Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
Chup
> Boyer would not have stayed away regardless of Lemond's attack.
> The bulk of the work in bringing him back was done by a Dutch
> rider working for Kuiper and Raas. His bid was not completely
> dead when Lemond went, but he was riding backwards at the time.
>
> But that's my take on it. After debating it in blind fashion for
> years we can finally check it out for ourselves.
But wasn't there a schism prior to the race regarding tactics?
LeMond wanting to ride as a team, Boyer wanting to ride every
man for himself? In the end the votes went to Boyer's side,
and it was agreed that everyone was riding for himself.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
john hill
George Mount
I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
to the front to see it well.
There was no discussion of team tactics before the race. Everyone had
their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
In the race Boyer attacked too early and was swallowed by momentum of
the pack. End of story. He was irrelevant to the finish and made what
could only be called a "publicity attack" with no hope of winning at
that pace that early. Lemond did not chase him down. That is a really
dumb statement.
As I said, I was there. I saw it. Enough of this.
George Mount
Rich Pawlowicz
>
> RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>
> I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
> to the front to see it well.
>
> There was no discussion of team tactics before the race. Everyone had
> their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
>
> In the race Boyer attacked too early and was swallowed by momentum of
> the pack. End of story. He was irrelevant to the finish and made what
> could only be called a "publicity attack" with no hope of winning at
> that pace that early. Lemond did not chase him down. That is a really
> dumb statement.
>
> As I said, I was there. I saw it. Enough of this.
>
> George Mount
Gosh, this takes all the fun out of it....
Rich.
--
Remove XXX from email address.
Gene
>
> RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>
> I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
> to the front to see it well.
>
> There was no discussion of team tactics before the race. Everyone had
> their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
>
> In the race Boyer attacked too early and was swallowed by momentum of
> the pack. End of story. He was irrelevant to the finish and made what
> could only be called a "publicity attack" with no hope of winning at
> that pace that early. Lemond did not chase him down. That is a really
> dumb statement.
>
> As I said, I was there. I saw it. Enough of this.
>
> George Mount
I'll believe it because you said it. I just read about you in John
Howard's book with Peter Nye. You were one of the good guys.
Gene
LAUDIEN
>to the front to see it well.
thank you smilin' George
HogLoder
>>
>> RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>>
>> to the front to see it well.
>>
>> their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
>>
>> In the race Boyer attacked too early and was swallowed by momentum of
>> the pack. End of story. He was irrelevant to the finish and made what
>> could only be called a "publicity attack" with no hope of winning at
>> that pace that early. Lemond did not chase him down. That is a really
>> dumb statement.
>>
>> As I said, I was there. I saw it. Enough of this.
living??? Still involved with cycling or what?
>>
>> George Mount
>
>I'll believe it because you said it. I just read about you in John
>Howard's book with Peter Nye. You were one of the good guys.
>
>Gene
"Live like a monk, train like a madman!!!"
"Ride lots...."
Chris
Bruce Hildenbrand
>RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>
>I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
>to the front to see it well.
Look, we don't care. We have too much fun siting in our armchairs discussing
what we heard 4th-hand, read in a cycling publication or just flat made up
out of thin air to be bothered by some first-hand account that might include
something called "facts".
Bruce Hildenbrand
ps - welcome to the snake pit! Stick around, grow a thick skin and hang on
for a wild ride.
Bruce Hildenbrand
>George Mount wrote:
>>
>> RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>>
>> I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
>> to the front to see it well.
distracting facts and first-hand testimony deleted in hopes of prolonging
the discussion.....
>> George Mount
>
>I'll believe it because you said it. I just read about you in John
>Howard's book with Peter Nye. You were one of the good guys.
Smilin' George Mount is not only one of the good guys, he was one of the
pioneering Americans in the pro peleton in Europe! And, his 6th place
finish at the 1976 Olympics was the best finish by an American since they
invented electricity and was a big, big breakthrough for the US in
international cycling.
Bruce Hildenbrand
SGJ4ASIT
>what we heard 4th-hand, read in a cycling publication or just flat made up
>out of thin air to be bothered by some first-hand account that might include
>something called "facts".
>
>Bruce Hildenbrand
>
>ps - welcome to the snake pit! Stick around, grow a thick skin and hang on
>for a wild ride.
sad to say, it's all true.
--
there is water!
at the bottom of the ocean!
- talking heads
Chup
>
> RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
>
> I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
> to the front to see it well.
>
> their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
>
This is good. Great to hear from someone who was there. For my part,
I have never believed that LeMond chased down Boyer. But at
the same time, due the report that I had read (a Stu Abt book?) claiming
that such a discussion occurred, I was not inclined to feel too
sympathetic to Boyer's position (If indeed what I have read about
Boyer's
position was true also).
john hill
Jay Wenner
: In article <35D9F216...@NOSPAM.com> George Mount <no...@NOSPAM.com> writes:
: >RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
: >I was there. I was in the pack. I saw it first hand. I was near enough
: >to the front to see it well.
: Look, we don't care. We have too much fun siting in our armchairs discussing
: what we heard 4th-hand, read in a cycling publication or just flat made up
: out of thin air to be bothered by some first-hand account that might include
: something called "facts".
This discussion group is about pet theories. Ugly facts that disagree
with wonderful theories are dismissed by attacking the source. Professionals
and former professionals represent a large source of facts, and are
attacked early and with particlular vigor to preserve future pet theory
proliferation.
Behead the eyewitness.
Long live conjecture, innuendo, and slander.
Jay Wenner
AMyerson
without my normal sarcasm, I've watched that tape a
million times, and IMO LeMond definitely chases Boyer
down. Now, it's true that Boyer was going to get caught
before the finish anyway, but did LeMond have to make it
that much easier for Saronni to win? If Saronni was such
a favorite, why didn't LeMond use the fact that he had a
teammate away to mark Saronni, and get Saronni to start
the sprint? The sprint would have started later, Boyer
might have held on for a higher place, and LeMond might have
had a chance to come around Saronni the way Saronni
came around him.
Again, it was obvious that Boyer was getting caught,
but LeMond still could have used the fact that he was away
to his advantage, instead of initiating the sprint that over-
took him, and handing the race to Saronni.
Comments?
Adam Myerson AMye...@aol.com
-----------------------------------------------------
"I am a man more sinned against than sinning." -King Lear
Bill Kellagher
racer wannabe, but I'm particularly suprised to see this coming from Jazzy
himself who presumably is an experienced racer. Haven't you ever been in
the situatution where whoever starts the sprint ends up winning it? I guess
you never tried to come around Jerry Malone on the finish hill in Central
Park. If Lemond had waited a split second later, Kelly or Saroni would have
jumped first and Lemond would have been no better than third. I've always
thought that Lemond did exactly the right thing. Ignore Boyer, as he was a
non-player in how the sprint would turn out, and try to get a jump on Kelly
and Saroni since it was an uphill sprint where drafting woujld be
minimized. As far as trying to follow Saroni is concerned, the word on the
street at the time was that NOBODY was coming around Saroni in a sprint. It
would have been something like trying to come around Cipollini or Zabel in a
sprint today.
Believe George. He was there, he knows the score.
Bill Kellagher
Boulder, CO
Andrew Albright
I think you missed what Adam was saying. It wasn't so much about the sprint, but
the fact that Lemond had a teammate up the road and who should use up their energy
in pulling him back in.
: Believe George. He was there, he knows the score.
Total b.s., frequently those in the race don't have a very good idea of what
happened. There are a lot of factors that can distort this, but at your next
race, ask around after the race what "happened"...it will vary depending on who
you ask. A camera isn't perfect either, but at the minimum it offers another
perspective.
Andrew Albright
: Bill Kellagher
Andre Louis,
subsequent responses I see the discussion centering around some issues of
tactical wrong or right. I guess if I was Boyer, being chased by a
teammate would make me Angry no matter what. As far as LeMond, his argument
would sound better if he had won that year. Certainly, attacking sprinters
(1989) did pay for him at a later date
Andrew Albright wrote in message >
Eirik Lie
----snip----
> The sprint would have started later, Boyer
> might have held on for a higher place, and LeMond might have
> had a chance to come around Saronni the way Saronni
> came around him.
LeMond come around Saronni??? The same way Ullrich comes around
Cippolini in a bunch sprint?
Eirik Lie, Bjornerabben 9, N-0383 Oslo, Norway
Email: eir...@notam.uio.no - Tel: +47 22 50 23 14
CD "12 Bilder": http://home.sol.no/home/eiriklie/Visual.html
Peter Durdaller
least in terms of the mechanics of the sprint.
How I have interperted what we saw was to attribute to LeMond the
motivation to go long and make others beat him to medal. IMO, it never
looked to me as if he was sprinting for the win per se (I know, I know,
you are always sprinting for the win...) but sprinting for a top three.
OTOH, Lemond could have been using the Merck method of sprinting. "Hey
Eddy, how do you train to sprint better than the sprinters?" Answer -
"...ride for 5 hours hard and then ride the 6th hour even harder."
PD
Phila
Chup
>
> George Mount wrote:
> >
> > RE: Worlds at Goodwood in 1982
> > their own agendas and no one asked anyone else to help them.
The item I referenced concerning the discussion of team tactics prior to
this race is found on page 45 of the Stu Abt book 'LeMond'. George Mount
was there. Greg LeMond was there. I was not. But certainly there appears
to be some disagreement among the participants as to what occurred.
john hill
AMyerson
>Cippolini in a bunch sprint?
Hey, he beat Kelly in Chambery, that's good enough for me. The point here is,
if he had forced Saronni into going early, which Saronni would have if noone
chased Boyer, LeMond would have had a chance to come around. I agree that in a
straight up field sprint, his chances would be slim. This, however, was an
uphill sprint from a small field.
Bob Schwartz
he went! He turned to me and said "Who the hell does that ^%(%$
Boyer think he is!?!", then he was gone with Saronni on his tail...
Nope, no amount of BS is going to make that one float. I do, however,
have a first hand account. This is from Samuel Abt's book "Breakaway".
It covers the 1984 Tour. This was Lemond's first entry, and also the
year of the inaugural Women's Tour. If the history of cycling floats
your boat, this is one to have.
But enough rambling...
======================================================================
Even the Other American was talking about Greg Lemond. "My only
regret, anyway the biggest one about Lemond," Jonathan Boyer said,
"is that he doesn't do anything for US cycling. He's said it himself-
he rides for himself, he rides for money, he rides for a French team
and then for America last. That's the wrong order."
Boyer was referring, at least partly, to the 1982 world champion-
ship at Goodwood, England. Wearing an American jersey, Boyer was
ahead going into the final sprint when the man in the other American
jersey, Lemond, led a charge that overtook Boyer. Teammates do not
usually try to deprive each other of victory, but Lemond was unapopo-
getic. "We were in the last five hundred meters and Boyer had only
about a 20 meter lead, which there was no way he could keep. I
didn't think he could win it, and I didn't want him to. He's just not a
friend. I didn't think he was the kind of guy who should be world
champion. Boyer knew from the start of the race that we weren't
friends and that we were both out for ourselves. I was wearing the US
jersey, sure, but there really wasn't a US team and I definitely wasn't
part of it. I paid for my own trip to England, my hotel bills,
everything.
There was no support from the US federation. The team I was racing
for was Renault."
=======================================================================
It then goes on to discuss the origins of Lemond's lack of friendship
with Boyer.
If Americans have no clue about professional bike racing, one reason is
surely a lack of time spent with the works of Samuel Abt.
Bob Schwartz
bsch...@cray.com
jver...@lucent.com
amye...@aol.com (AMyerson) wrote:
> >LeMond come around Saronni??? The same way Ullrich comes >around
> >Cippolini in a bunch sprint?
>
> Hey, he beat Kelly in Chambery, that's good enough for me.
Whoa! That's 7 years, 2 TdF wins, and one hunting accident later. There was
also the excuse of Kelly having only a 13.
> The point here is,
> if he had forced Saronni into going early, which Saronni would have if noone
> chased Boyer, LeMond would have had a chance to come around. I agree that in a
> straight up field sprint, his chances would be slim. This, however, was an
> uphill sprint from a small field.
I think that when you believe in your own mind that another rider is a faster
sprinter, you try anything "weird" to beat him. LeMond may have believed
Saronni was faster, and was trying to throw him a changeup. Or perhaps Greg
figured he'd be stronger than Saronni was fast, so he went long. Do you try
anything weird against Wilson when he's going well?
Greg was what, 21 at the time? He may have simply been a bit eager, and made
a bit of a mistake. Hell, I get nervous if I'm in a small break approaching
the finish of a $300 crit, I can imagine Greg may have been a bit less
composed than he usually was when 500 meters from what would have been the
biggest win of his life thus far.
>
> Adam Myerson AMye...@aol.com
> -----------------------------------------------------
> "I am a man more sinned against than sinning." -King Lear
Good luck in Buffalo,
John
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Perry
I think the fact that Lemond was the kind of rider who would attack in that
situation goes a long way towards explaining the vast difference between the
two men's palmeres. I liked Boyer, I even had a poster of him on my wall
when I was a kid, but he probably thought too much while he was racing. In
the time it takes a person to decide whether it is worth attacking, a good
opportunity can escape us.
Greg Lemond was only doing what comes natural for a champion, attacking when
an opportunity to win presents itself. Boyer didn't dig deep enough, he did
not hurt himself enough, and he did not win. I too would hate Lemond if I
were Boyer, but even more I would hate myself. Decisiveness is what defines
great men.