Why/How Basso improved in TT
Jan
Jan
Eighteen months of focus paid off yesterday for Ivan Basso, as the
once-mediocre time trialist blasted through the 45km 8th stage of the Giro d
'Italia and left a path of distruction in his wake. On his brand-new P3
Carbon with Wolf TT fork, Basso gained 1min39 on Garzelli, 2min7 on Cunego
and 2min37 on Simoni. Even reknowned time trailer Sergei Gontchar lost 36
seconds to Basso.
But it hasn't been easy for Basso to get where he is today. Prior to riding
for Team CSC, he had never trained on his time trial bike. He didn't have a
TT bike at home, he didn't train on one in the training camps, the only time
he would ride one would be in races. That all changed when he came to Team
CSC. Realizing that without a good time trial a rider cannot win the big
tours, Bjarne Riis put together a training schedule for him that heavily
focused on improving Basso's skills in this area. Now he regularly puts in
100km+ a day on one of the several Cervelo time trial bikes he has at home.
He rode yesterday's Giro stage at least 20 times in training, knew ever
corner and every pothole. He now feels as comfortable on his P3 Carbon as he
does on his R2.5 and Soloist. And for the first time in his career, he now
actually looks forward to the time trials as opportunities to gain time on
his rivals.
"Today's stage was very important, and I was fully aware of what I had to
do. It's fantastic to be able to make a result like this, which is what
Bjarne and I had hoped for. We've been working for a long time with this
time trial, and I believe, I've done the route about 20 times. I've been
training a lot in order to be able to make a difference in this discipline.
Yesterday's time loss was just another motivation factor for me, and I was
very determined to retaliate. I owe Bjarne a special thanks, cause he is
also a big part of this triumph. We still have a lot of tough stages ahead
of us, but today we took a giant leap forward," said Ivan Basso.
The only rider Ivan couldn't beat yesterday was another Team CSC member on a
Cervelo. In this case, it was Dave Zabriskie on a P3 SL, CSC's stock TT
bike. It was the first time trial victory in a major Tour for the young
American, even though the main reason to go fast was not to win the stage,
but to scout out the course for Ivan. But that doesn't mean he didn't have
victory in the back of his mind.
"I'm very happy with my victory. I started early, so it was quite nerve
wrecking to watch the other guys on TV. On the last part of the course we
had headwinds, and I knew that would be to my advantage because of my
position on the bike. I'm a time trial specialist, and this is definitely a
victory I've dreamt about for a long time. I was allowed to take it easy in
yesterday's stage, so I was able to aim for something big today," said
Zabriskie.
All in all, yesterday's results were a big victory for the team and for
Bjarne Riis, who has always focused on time trials, from equipment choices
to rider selection to training schedules.
"It was a fantastic day for us. David showed his huge potential and Ivan did
the time trial of his life. We couldn't expect more than this. Our
preparations have paid off, and Ivan confirmed yesterday's time loss wasn't
due to lack of strength. Our team is here to win the Giro with Ivan, and
today we showed, that we mean business," said Bjarne Riis.
routebeer
Jan wrote:
> From the Cervelo newsletter.
> Jan
>
> Eighteen months of focus paid off yesterday for Ivan Basso, as the
> once-mediocre time trialist blasted through the 45km 8th stage of the
Giro d
> 'Italia and left a path of distruction in his wake. On his brand-new
P3
> Carbon with Wolf TT fork, Basso gained 1min39 on Garzelli, 2min7 on
Cunego
> and 2min37 on Simoni. Even reknowned time trailer Sergei Gontchar
lost 36
> seconds to Basso.
>
> But it hasn't been easy for Basso to get where he is today. Prior to
riding
> for Team CSC, he had never trained on his time trial bike. He didn't
have a
> TT bike at home, he didn't train on one in the training camps, the
only time
> he would ride one would be in races. That all changed when he came to
Team
> CSC.
Lets see..., he's shown dramatic improvement and he's riding for CSC...
the only thing missing from this story is a positive test result.
sonarrat
> Lets see..., he's shown dramatic improvement and he's riding for CSC...
> the only thing missing from this story is a positive test result.
Dumbass,
That's the thing that's missing from the CSC story in general. Their
success comes from a combination of tight Fassa-like control and
Euskaltel-like cohesion and camraderie.
-Sonarrat.
routebeer
Oh yes, so he needs to leave and then test positive. I knew I forgot
something.
I don't know how tight they can be when you consider how quick Olympic
Gold Medalist Tyler Hamilton disappeared from their ranks after a
little success during a stage of the Tour. But Bjarne does look like a
pretty cool boss to work for.
sonarrat
Tyler's defection to Phonak was about money. The one thing Riis cannot
offer is a big paycheck, because he's working with a very small budget
compared with the heavy hitters. Phonak does not have that problem.
-Sonarrat.
Tom Kunich
back him up. Riis offered him a team of good riders who might ride for
themselves alla Simoni and Cunego.
One of the reasons that Lance is so successful is that it doesn't
matter to the team management if he's feeling bad today, their money is
on Lance and Lance alone. He doesn't have to worry that Chechu is going
to try for his own sake instead of the team. He doesn't have to worry
that Azevedo, who can put the hurt on any other rider when he's good,
will try to show everyone how good he is and forget the team.
Tyler did the right thing. The questions about his positive still ring
loudly. Why is WADA refusing to do a False Positives Study?
trg
news:1116366884....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
in the Tour 2003. He was livid when Riis went to look after the eventual
stage winner (don't remember if it was the stage Pil won, or the won Sastre
won) and left him without support. Wasn't a very flattering view of Tyler.
He came off looking like a spoiled brat. Of course he was in a lot of pain
at the time from a shoulder broken in two places, so maybe some allowances
should be make for that.
He gave his reason for going to Phonak as being able to have a team built
around him for the Tour. Plus, if he had won the Tour or even come in second
behind Armstrong, he could have cashed in probably more than any salary
boost the Phonak would be good for. So if he thought he had a better chance
of success with CSC in the Tour 2004, he might have stayed with them even
for, rather than is spite of monetary reasons.
Tim Mullin
news:428a878d$0$24945$626a...@news.free.fr:
> He gave his reason for going to Phonak as being able to have a team
> built around him for the Tour.
Guys with the same blood type?
Patricio Carlos
Danish ones too.
HB
"trg" <t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:428a878d$0$24945$626a...@news.free.fr...
> "Tom Kunich" <cycl...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:1116366884....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tyler
> in the Tour 2003. He was livid when Riis went to look after the eventual
> stage winner (don't remember if it was the stage Pil won, or the won
Sastre
> won) and left him without support. Wasn't a very flattering view of Tyler.
> He came off looking like a spoiled brat. Of course he was in a lot of pain
> at the time from a shoulder broken in two places, so maybe some allowances
> should be make for that.
>
It was Sastre who won. Riis said in the same broadcast that it was the
toughest decision he ever had to make, whether to stay with Tyler og go with
Sastre. Personally I think Tyler had the support he could expect. He had a
broken collarbone and was barely hanging on the peloton in the first stages.
He could not count on the entire team (and the sponsors) sacrificing what
turned out to be 2 stage wins at the price of everyone dragging him through
day after day.
> He gave his reason for going to Phonak as being able to have a team built
> around him for the Tour. Plus, if he had won the Tour or even come in
second
> behind Armstrong, he could have cashed in probably more than any salary
> boost the Phonak would be good for. So if he thought he had a better
chance
> of success with CSC in the Tour 2004, he might have stayed with them even
> for, rather than is spite of monetary reasons.
>
He had the team built around him in the 2004 Tour, and skipped because of
back pain...hmm, and the year before he didn't have the team he wanted and
he sat thru 3 weeks of hell!?. I think he went for the money, which is fine
by me, he should just have come clean (no pun).
HB
trg
news:428b0a3e$0$238$edfa...@dread12.news.tele.dk...
possible given the injury. I've both broken a shoulder and also had back
problems, they both hurt like hell, but you screw up your back and game over
for just about any sport. Hamilton said he no longer had any power after the
back injury. I believe him. Besides, as I said, if he could come in 1st or
even second behind Armstrong while on CSC, the money that would generate for
him would more than make up for any pay raise that Phonak would give him.
BTW, if there was a pun that you were avoiding with "come clean", I missed
it. Maybe it only works in Dansk, or maybe I'm just thick today :)
Jonathan v.d. Sluis
"Tom Kunich" <cycl...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1116366884....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
...
> Tyler did the right thing. The questions about his positive still ring
> loudly. Why is WADA refusing to do a False Positives Study?
I don't think such a study is necessary. The test that found Hamilton
positive clearly detects different red blood cells and Hamilton did not
dispute that. This means that he himself did not believe in the possibility
of a false positive.
Chris M
in the photos I saw. More evidence of the influence that Riis has on
his team. It is very cool to watch unfold. I can't wait for Christian
to start moving up too. At this point Riis' reputation helps him
attract a lot of talent without getting too outrageous with salary
offers.
Chris M
And...where do you get "cohesion" from the orange machine? You say it
as if you know what you are talking about and hope for the best. That
seems to sum up you posting style. CSC stands alone in their superior
team culture that gets the most out of the talent of the team as
individuals and a group. There is no other team that even comes close.
Bartoli and Tafi were the only riders that did not have his best
results while riding for CSC. They were way past their prime and I
can't hold CSC responsible for that. That leaves about 95% (or more) of
the team that is having their best results of their careers.
David Ferguson
on. Thinking that if he's ever that high in the GC again he doesn't
want the door slammed shut but a TT.
D
On Tue, 17 May 2005 10:15:56 +0100, "Jan" <j...@freeinternet.com>
wrote:
sonarrat
I refer to EE's "cohesion" not in sense of riding as a team (they
certainly don't), but in supporting one another as Basque nationalists
out to prove a point. Now if those anarchists could only get organized,
they could accomplish great things.
And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's success. How many riders
has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the domestic scene and
transformed into top-level athletes? They have a different reason for
wanting talented people, but they are still comparable.
-Sonarrat.
Robert Chung
> How many riders has Johan plucked from the anonymity of
> the domestic scene and transformed into top-level athletes?
Hmmm. Okay, I give up: how many?
jc
I would disagree that Discovery is on level with CSC. No one else comes
close to CSC in terms of giving its riders space to ride, and finding
ways for them to be successful. Riis really is remarkably good at that,
and I don't think it has all that much to do with passing around the
needle. The perfect TT positions of Basso and Zabriski didn't happen by
accident. Nor, does having riders peaked out for races that suit them,
as in the case of Bobby J at Paris-Nice. To me, there's nothing much
remarkable about what Bruyneel is up to at Postal/Discovery. Train a
monkey to drive the car, and Lance would probably still have won the
Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent, and Discovery is that
Discovery scored the best Tour rider of his generation while T-Mobile
ended up with the second best.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
> And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's
> success. How many riders
> has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the
> domestic scene and
> transformed into top-level athletes?
I can't think of any. How many do you think there are?
JT
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Howard Kveck
wrote:
> Tyler's defection to Phonak was about money. The one thing Riis cannot
> offer is a big paycheck, because he's working with a very small budget
> compared with the heavy hitters. Phonak does not have that problem.
>
> -Sonarrat.
You're correct, but I'd add that Phonak also promised to build a Tour
team that was more focused on Hamilton as a sole leader than CSC could
afford to do.
--
tanx,
Howard
Butter is love.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Kurgan Gringioni
jc wrote:
> Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
> T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent,
Dumbass -
T-Mobile, a black hole of talent?
You've seriously got your head up your ass.
BTW, if it's that easy to do what Bruyneel has done, maybe you should
do it too. I'll bet it pays well.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
Bob Schwartz
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:17:07 -0700, sonarrat <sona...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>> And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's
>> success. How many riders
>> has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the
>> domestic scene and
>> transformed into top-level athletes?
> I can't think of any. How many do you think there are?
Johan's greatest talent is his ability to exploit Spanish
speaking riders whose ability outstrips their sponsorship.
It seems as though Banesto and ONCE have left a financial
deficit that has left a lot of very good riders grossly
underpaid. Even guys from other teams, who have fewer
opportunities for pay increases.
Heras, Beltran, Rubiera, Pena from Colombia, Azevedo from
Portugal. It's an impressive list of riders to be supporting
LANCE in the high mountains.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
jc
Well, I just checked and my head didn't seem to be up my ass. I suspect
I would know that sort of thing, but I guess I could be mistaken.
So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair enough.
But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent. He
has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag Lance
around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to stick
around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
particular.
I'm sure Bruyneel's job pays a shitload more than mine does, but I think
I'd go fucking crazy if I had to sit in a car for that many hours. So,
thanks but I'll pass.
sonarrat
> So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair enough.
> But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
> Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent. He
> has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag Lance
> around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to stick
> around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
> particular.
That's what I meant. Bruyneel cultvates talent for his own use. He may
not use everyone to win races, like the old Mapei squad, but he is
remarkably good at what he sets out to do. The same is not true of
Godefroot, because his pink squad is always split between Ulli and
Zabel. And he isn't even good at that, because they usually wind up
supporting neither where it counts.
-Sonarrat.
routebeer
Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <xXmie.216$eR....@fe05.lga>, sonarrat
<sona...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Tyler's defection to Phonak was about money. The one thing Riis
cannot
> > offer is a big paycheck, because he's working with a very small
budget
> > compared with the heavy hitters. Phonak does not have that
problem.
> >
> > -Sonarrat.
>
> You're correct, but I'd add that Phonak also promised to build a
Tour
> team that was more focused on Hamilton as a sole leader than CSC
could
> afford to do.
Perhaps, but you must understand that Phonak got two riders for the
price of one in Olympic Gold Medalist Tyler Hamilton so they were
getting a bargain. What you bet that each of the riders in the pro
peleton wish he had a twin to donate blood to his cause?
The only thing that makes sense in all this is how a guilty cheater
could not see how weak a "Vanishing Twin" defense sounds.
Kurgan Gringioni
jc wrote:
>
> Well, I just checked and my head didn't seem to be up my ass. I
suspect
> I would know that sort of thing, but I guess I could be mistaken.
>
> So a trained monkey couldn't get Lance to Paris in Yellow. Fair
enough.
> But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
> Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent.
He
> has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag
Lance
> around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not to
stick
> around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind here in
> particular.
Dumbass -
Boonen was one that they screwed up on, but, they also were the ones
who spotted him.
That said, no one's ever, in the last 20 years anyway, built a team
that was so good at supporting a TdF contender. Not even Indurain,
who's team basically existed only for him, was able to dominate like
the USPS did - Indurain's team even cracked a few times and they had to
"buy" help from other squads to keep the race under control.
Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and in
some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it, then
every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
could.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
amit
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and in
> some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it, then
> every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
> could.
dumbass,
i don't think anyone is suggesting that dominating the tdf is easy,
even with the right rider, but it still doesn't mean it doesn't get
boring.
amit
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> jc wrote:
> > Tour. Indeed, it seems at times as if the main difference between
> > T-Mobile, often considered a black hole of talent,
>
> Dumbass -
>
> T-Mobile, a black hole of talent?
>
> You've seriously got your head up your ass.
dumbass,
he only said that is what is often said. but there's enough cases to
argue that point, savoldelli, sevilla, evans (all guys who led a GT)
fizzled at T-mobile. julich, botero, aerts all got worse when they got
there.
other than vino i can't think of a case where they took a promising
rider from another team to the next level. (nardello did win a world
cup, but he's an old fart and it's not like he made a huge leap).
somehow i don't think they're doing everything right.
Kurgan Gringioni
amit wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
>
> > Some critics state that USPS's dominance makes the TdF boring and
in
> > some instances they've been right, but if it were easy to to it,
then
> > every team would - every team would love to win that race, if they
> > could.
>
> dumbass,
>
> i don't think anyone is suggesting that dominating the tdf is easy,
> even with the right rider,
Dumbass -
I think that's what jc is suggesting.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
trg
news:4qednbxm854...@giganews.com...
Zabriskie was TT boy before Riis ever spoke to him.
Bob Schwartz
> Perhaps, but you must understand that Phonak got two riders for the
> price of one in Olympic Gold Medalist Tyler Hamilton so they were
> getting a bargain. What you bet that each of the riders in the pro
> peleton wish he had a twin to donate blood to his cause?
> The only thing that makes sense in all this is how a guilty cheater
> could not see how weak a "Vanishing Twin" defense sounds.
Tyler is not the first to blame things on an Evil Twin.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
No doubt the virtual twin's name was George.
Nev Shea
news:3f203pF...@individual.net:
I suppose we could debate the definition of "top-level", but I'll name a
few Americans whose careers improved under Bruyneel:
Lance Armstrong -- After cancer nobody else wanted to hire him, and how
many TdFs did he even finish before Postal?
Floyd Landis -- I recall reading that he had been riding for Mercury for
free, and then they folded. So, like Lance, he had no job when they hired
him.
Here are 4 more though I don't know what they were doing before working
for Postal:
Tyler Hamilton
Jonathan Vaughters
Kevin Livingston -- remember he was originally hired away to be Linda
McCartney team's GT rider? oops
David Zabriskie
then in another post
jc <runsp...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:btCdnZ-ev-q...@giganews.com:
> Well, I just checked and my head didn't seem to be up my ass.
check again.
> But it still seems to me like Bruyneel and his bros there at
> Postal/Discovery haven't been all that stellar at developing talent.
> He has done a fabulous job in putting together a team that can drag
> Lance around France, but riders with ambitions of their own seem not
> to stick around any longer than they have to. Boonen comes to mind
> here in particular.
Well, you take that idea of riders not sticking around and draw exactly
the wrong conclusion. The reason they leave is because they have
developed and other teams are willing to pay a lot more to hire them
away.
NS
Carl Sundquist
"Bob Schwartz" <cv...@shell.core.com> wrote in message
>
> Tyler is not the first to blame things on an Evil Twin.
>
> Bob Schwartz
> cv...@execpc.com
>
> No doubt the virtual twin's name was George.
???
Kyle Legate
> On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:17:07 -0700, sonarrat <sona...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>And Discovery certainly comes close to CSC's
>>success. How many riders
>>has Johan plucked from the anonymity of the
>>domestic scene and
>>transformed into top-level athletes?
>
>
> I can't think of any. How many do you think there are?
>
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>"Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in
>news:3f203pF...@individual.net:
>
>> sonarrat wrote:
>>> How many riders has Johan plucked from the anonymity of
>>> the domestic scene and transformed into top-level athletes?
>>
>> Hmmm. Okay, I give up: how many?
>
>I suppose we could debate the definition of "top-level", but I'll name a
>few Americans whose careers improved under Bruyneel:
>
>Lance Armstrong -- After cancer nobody else wanted to hire him, and how
>many TdFs did he even finish before Postal?
>
>Floyd Landis -- I recall reading that he had been riding for Mercury for
>free, and then they folded. So, like Lance, he had no job when they hired
>him.
>
Sure what "top level" is is debateable, but no way could Armstrong be
considered anonymous -- he was a former pro world road champion and
even got 4th in the Tour of Spain before Bruyneel worked with him.
I think Landis won or placed highly in the Tour of Langkawi before he
joined USPS. That's not domestic anonymity.
>Here are 4 more though I don't know what they were doing before working
>for Postal:
>
>Tyler Hamilton
2nd in a Tour de France TT before Armstrong was the USPS GC leader.
That is not anonymous.
>Kevin Livingston -- remember he was originally hired away to be Linda
You're saying Bruyneel brought out his best? What was his best?
>David Zabriskie
OK, the thesis works for him.
sonarrat
> On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:53:51 GMT, Nev Shea <spam...@garbage.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in
>>news:3f203pF...@individual.net:
>>
>>
>>>sonarrat wrote:
>>>
>>>>How many riders has Johan plucked from the anonymity of
>>>>the domestic scene and transformed into top-level athletes?
>>>
>>>Hmmm. Okay, I give up: how many?
>>
>>I suppose we could debate the definition of "top-level", but I'll name a
>>few Americans whose careers improved under Bruyneel:
>>
>>Lance Armstrong -- After cancer nobody else wanted to hire him, and how
>>many TdFs did he even finish before Postal?
>>
>>Floyd Landis -- I recall reading that he had been riding for Mercury for
>>free, and then they folded. So, like Lance, he had no job when they hired
>>him.
>>
>
>
> Sure what "top level" is is debateable, but no way could Armstrong be
> considered anonymous -- he was a former pro world road champion and
> even got 4th in the Tour of Spain before Bruyneel worked with him.
You're wrong there. He got 4th in the '98 Vuelta, post-cancer, on USPS.
Nobody thought he could have been a GT contender beforehand. Eddy
Merckx (I think) told him if he wanted to even think about it, he would
need to lose a lot of weight.
> I think Landis won or placed highly in the Tour of Langkawi before he
> joined USPS. That's not domestic anonymity.
Langkawi is not a prestigious race now, and was even less so then.
Landis was also a former MTB rider. He's not really who I was thinking
of, anyway.
>>Here are 4 more though I don't know what they were doing before working
>>for Postal:
>>
>>Tyler Hamilton
>
> 2nd in a Tour de France TT before Armstrong was the USPS GC leader.
> That is not anonymous.
A surprise performance that followed two years of total anonymity after
his signing with USPS in '96.
>>Kevin Livingston -- remember he was originally hired away to be Linda
>
> You're saying Bruyneel brought out his best? What was his best?
Poor example. His best result was a 17th in the TdF on Cofidis.
>>David Zabriskie
>
> OK, the thesis works for him.
Yes, but what about Boonen? I don't think it was much a case of messing
up with him. He was, after all, allowed to start Paris-Roubaix at the
age of 21, and if Bruyneel hadn't thought he was ready, it wouldn't have
been possible for him to go on and nick 3rd place after the team leader
crashed himself out of it. You think he could have even participated
that early if he was on Lefevre's development squad?
And nobody's mentioned Levi Leipheimer yet, who is the finest example.
He went from moderate success at Saturn to a podium finish at the Vuelta
with USPS in two years.
-Sonarrat.
Carl Sundquist
"sonarrat" <sona...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Sure what "top level" is is debateable, but no way could Armstrong be
> > considered anonymous -- he was a former pro world road champion and
> > even got 4th in the Tour of Spain before Bruyneel worked with him.
>
> You're wrong there. He got 4th in the '98 Vuelta, post-cancer, on USPS.
> Nobody thought he could have been a GT contender beforehand. Eddy
> Merckx (I think) told him if he wanted to even think about it, he would
> need to lose a lot of weight.
>
When did Bruyneel start working for USPS?
Robert Chung
>
> Yes, but what about Boonen?
Boonen was a junior and espoir star. The year before he signed with USPS
he was the Belgian espoir champion. I think he may have won the
Paris-Roubaix espoir race.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
I'm not arguing about how prestigious it is other than that it is not
domestics anonymity. I'm saying he was not in domestic anonymity.
Don't shif the goalposts.
>
>>>Here are 4 more though I don't know what they were doing before working
>>>for Postal:
>>>
>>>Tyler Hamilton
>>
>> 2nd in a Tour de France TT before Armstrong was the USPS GC leader.
>> That is not anonymous.
>
>A surprise performance that followed two years of total anonymity after
>his signing with USPS in '96.
The argument was about Bruyneel, not USPS. Bruyneel was not with the
team at the time.
John Forrest Tomlinson
He did one race near me -- the Univest GP in Pennsylvania -- while an
espoir. He got second after defending a teammate who he thought was
going for the win. There's video of him flying by his teammate near
the end where he looks annoyed and surprised to see the guy.
alex
of Rjis and Tyler)?.
Maybe Cerevelo's bikes and the wind tunnel had some effect... But I was
paying attention to the bis a bis between Karpets and Basso to compare it to
the last TT in the TdF 2004 in which they were both highly motivated to
perform well -one to stay in podium and the other to get the white jersey.
Stage 19 - July 24: Besancon - Besancon ITT, 55 km
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 1.06.49
(49.39 km/h)
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.01
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.27
4 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 2.25
5 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 2.48
6 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.50
7 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC 3.19
8 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears - Banesto 3.33
Giro 2005 - May 15: Lamporecchio - Firenze ITT, 45 km
1 David Zabriskie (USA) Team CSC 58.31
(46.14 km/h)
2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 0.17
3 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel-Pro Cycling Team 0.44
4 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 0.48
5 Serguei Gonchar (Ukr) Domina Vacanze 0.51
6 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears 1.07
So the relative distance is similar.
"sonarrat" <sona...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Fhmie.921$bD5...@fe07.lga...
> routebeer wrote:
>
>> Lets see..., he's shown dramatic improvement and he's riding for CSC...
>> the only thing missing from this story is a positive test result.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> That's the thing that's missing from the CSC story in general. Their
> success comes from a combination of tight Fassa-like control and
> Euskaltel-like cohesion and camraderie.
>
> -Sonarrat.
jc
Yep, those were the names I was thinking of, as it happens. There's
plenty of talent there at T-Mobile, but it seems like anyone who
transfers there disappears.
jc
Nah, I agree it's not easy. But the comparison was between Riis and
Bruyneel in terms of developing talent, and from where I'm sitting Riis
comes out ahead in that game. Certainly Bruyneel has played a key role
in Lance's success and hired some talented guys to support LA at the
Tour, but I wonder how many other DS's might have been able to achieve
the same results. Impossible to say of course. But Bruyneel has had a
fat budget to work with, a big talent in Lance, and a sponsor who didn't
demand all that much outside of success in July (ie, no need to ride the
Vuelta a Corporate Headquarters.) I'll be interested to see what JB
does with the team AL. Perhaps he will change my mind. For now, I'm
impressed by the results Riis gets out of the riders he has and his
knack for picking races and objectives where they can be successful.
Kurgan Gringioni
jc wrote:
>
> Yep, those were the names I was thinking of, as it happens. There's
> plenty of talent there at T-Mobile, but it seems like anyone who
> transfers there disappears.
Dumbass -
Oh that's what you meant. I thought you were claiming there was no
talent at T-Mobile.
K. Gringioni.
sonarrat
My argument held to there, then. Even though I've been into the sport
for several years now, I'm still young, I'm still learning and I'm
willing to experiment and be wrong. It's not like there's any
credibility to lose on Usenet.
Anyway, that still leaves Zabriskie and Leipheimer, and arguably Danielson.
-Sonarrat.
Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> other than vino i can't think of a case where they took a promising
> rider from another team to the next level.
Riis 96?
;-)
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>
PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 300+80GB Disk, 8xDVD+/-RW, Bluetooth
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amit
Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
> amit <am...@physics.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> > other than vino i can't think of a case where they took a promising
> > rider from another team to the next level.
>
> Riis 96?
>
> ;-)
yeah! if you want to talk about ancient history.
Morten Reippuert Knudsen
in fact its the other way around - Riis took the team to another level.