Alb. velodrome & Nationals
ToddWine
last year's nationals is no longer the mayor, just a councilman...but announced
at his last officiating meeting, that he was going to have a race run INSTEAD
of the nationals. The "going back to the roots" speil. He never announced why
the city wasn't holding the upcoming nationals. Maybe that was an act of God!
ALEX ANDEL
(it was used in the Pan Am games this summer) by the Southwest Velodrome
Association and has been relocated to Albuquerque. Currently, it is in
storage awaiting the finalization of a site and the continued pursuit of
funding. We anticipate the finalization of a site in the next two months
and the influx of considerable capital shortly thereafter.
The goal is to have the track up and running in the coming year. National
caliber racing shortly thereafter. The track's 250M and steep banking
combined with an altitude of over a mile all but ensure that this will be
the fastest track venue in the USA. THE place to set the next round of US
Track records. Stand by for more on this project.
ToddWine wrote in message <19991219183953...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
Warren
<ALEX....@gte.net> wrote:
> The New Mexico velodrome...
> The goal is to have the track up and running in the coming year. National
> caliber racing shortly thereafter. The track's 250M and steep banking
> combined with an altitude of over a mile all but ensure that this will be
> the fastest track venue in the USA. THE place to set the next round of US
> Track records.
Why would it be faster than CO Springs?
Mark Hickey
I dunno where it is, but with a name like Carbon Monoxide Springs, I
can't imagine any records falling there....
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.cynetfl.com/habanero/
Home of the $695 ti frame
scott
that come to mind as possibilities.
Track surface and banking design will impact speeds on a track.
Of course, not having been on a track in a few years and not having been on
a track other than the Colorado Springs track, I am not sure if either of
the possibilities is valid in this case.
I would imagine that really short tracks might be slower, otherwise why
would riders use lower gears on those tracks???
Warren <war...@usvh.com> wrote in message
news:201219992214562017%war...@usvh.com...
Kevin Wuertz
Could it be because you wouldn't have someone from the USCF hanging onto
your saddle? ;-)
Kevin
Jason Thomas Vance
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, scott wrote:
> I'm sure Carl or someone can speak to this issue, but there are two things
> that come to mind as possibilities.
> Track surface and banking design will impact speeds on a track.
>
> Of course, not having been on a track in a few years and not having been on
> a track other than the Colorado Springs track, I am not sure if either of
> the possibilities is valid in this case.
>
> I would imagine that really short tracks might be slower, otherwise why
> would riders use lower gears on those tracks???
>
>
Really short tracks may be slower because the tight radius of the turns
saps so much speed off the rider. If the turns are wide enough, there is
no reason this track would not be as fast as Frisco....then again, how
fast would Frisco be if it were a mile high? I be willing to bet pretty
fast!
Steep bankings will aid the rider to hit top speed, but whether they can
carry this to the finish will depend on the turn radius.
-Jason
MSchadAPI
>carry this to the finish will depend on the turn radius.
>
>-Jason
>
I'm only familiar with the Trexlertown velodrome personally, but I've seen
pictures of the velodrome in Ft. Lauderdale (Piccolo Park?), where the top of
the turns drops very abruptly into the straights, which themselves are almost
flat. Might be cool to get a flying start off one of those "cliffs".
Mike Gladu
> In article <Ktj74.8132$_f.8...@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net>, ALEX ANDEL
> <ALEX....@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > The New Mexico velodrome...
> > The goal is to have the track up and running in the coming year. National
> > caliber racing shortly thereafter. The track's 250M and steep banking
> > combined with an altitude of over a mile all but ensure that this will be
> > the fastest track venue in the USA. THE place to set the next round of US
> > Track records.
>
> Why would it be faster than CO Springs?
Modern wood 250 vs. older concrete 333. Hmmmm...
IMHO, Abuquerque advantages: smoother surface (designed to be easier to
ride a lower line and painted plywood has a lower rolling resistance),
better transition design (less rise and fall at the pole in and out of
turns for TTs, steeper exit and shallower entry at wall for sprinters),
comparatively larger turn radius vs. straight length (less g-force speed
reduction in turns, maybe balanced by there being more of them per kilo),
(I'm guessing on these) less windy conditions, lower humidity and slightly
higher altitude, longer racing season (more time for riders to acclimate
and learn the nuances of the surface).
As I recall, most modern track records were set on tracks with design
criteria in this order of importance (again IMHO!):
1. indoor
2. altitude
3. wood
4. 250
5. resin/painted surface
If it makes any difference, the track itself got good press and excellent
marks for speed and performance at the PanAm games from the riders. Junek
did a great job with this one under terrible conditions. It'll be a
welcome addition to the US 'drome collection.
Mike G.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------IM
Mike Gladu - Cycling Photojournalist, ex-manager Superdrome in Frisco TX
Infinite HangTime Photography Cell Phone: 281.788.8035
5914 Greenmont Drive Home phone: 713.681.6293
Houston, Texas USA 77092-2330 Ans. Machine: 713.681.5595
WWW: http://www.htcomp.net/gladu/'drome/ Email: 8han...@mindless.com
========================================================================
DESAY
>pictures of the velodrome in Ft. Lauderdale (Piccolo Park?), where the top of
>the turns drops very abruptly into the straights, which themselves are almost
>flat. Might be cool to get a flying start off one of those "cliffs".
Are you sure you're not confusing the Piccolo Velodrome with the Alpenrose
Velodrome in Portland. I've been riding at Piccolo now since it's inception
and I can assure you it's nothing as you describe.
Larry D
scott
1000ft higher in elevation than Albuquerque.
Mike Gladu <mgl...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:mgladu-2112...@user-33qs1fc.dialup.mindspring.com...
Dnewell1
>1000ft higher in elevation than Albuquerque.
>
Depending on actual location in Albuq. I suppose. What is the elevation of the
C. Springs velodrome? Albuq's will be around 5,500 feet.
dave
scott
location for the NM 'drome yet.
Dnewell1 <dnew...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991221180204...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Dnewell1
>location for the NM 'drome yet.
Right, they haven't. But the site options that I know of are approximately
that elevation.
dave
Carl Sundquist
> I'm sure that we could get some of the math and physics gurus in here to
> explain it better, but here is something that was explained to me once. As the
> track gets steeper, and the rider goes faster, and leans over more, the less
> distance his body actually travels.
What occurs in turns is that the center of the mass of the rider and bike is not
located at the bike/track interface (track corner radius), but roughly on a turn
whose radius slightly smaller than the radius of the track. Because the center of
mass is traveling at the same rate of speed as the wheels on the straightaways, the
center of mass carries the (straightaway) speed through the shorter radius turn.
This means the wheels actually have to speed up to travel the extra distance
through the (slightly larger) turns.
Circumference for a half circle is pi x radius, so if the inside line on a track is
50 meters around turn 1 & 2, then 50/3.14=15.923 meter radius for the inside
distance around the track turn. If the rider's center of mass is 1 meter to the
inside of the track, or 14.923 meter radius, then the center of mass will only
travel 46.858 meters to go around the turn. The wheels have to increase their speed
to travel the additional 3.142 meters, when the rider and bike exit the turn. There
are other factors regarding energy loss/gain as the wheels speed up and slow down,
but we'll save that for a snowy day.
> While common sense tells us that the
> G-forces would add extra resistance, rolling resistance on a bicycle isn't
> actually that great.
It depends upon speed through the turns and the turn radius. At a constant speed it
becomes more difficult to "hold down" the bike as the radius of the turn gets
smaller, even as the angle of the banking increases. Anyone who has ridden one of
the 333 tracks in the USA and the Vandedrome could tell you that.
> Obviously there are limits, but it seems that 250 is
> about optimum.
It is optimum in many ways: It seems to be the largest track that can most
practically be designed into indoor facilities, it allows for easier lap taking in
six-days (the 333 in Moscow was just a little too big, right Tom and Shaun?),
six-days being one of the primary reasons there are indoor velodromes. Yet the
smaller tracks have difficulty with the timed events, whether it is the perils and
difficulties of trying to do standing starts (ever try to do a kilo start and pedal
standing up at top speed through a turn on a small track? Ain't happenin'!) or just
trying to reach top speeds which you can do on larger tracks, the tight high G
turns on smaller tracks don't allow you to accellerate nearly as well and there
becomes a routine of punching it on the straights and floating through the turns
(unless you're trying to pass over the top on a turn) rather than a steady effort
all the way around the track.
> Most world records are set on 250's (other than those set at
> the obsurdly high Cali track).
Actually Cali is at a really good altitude -- about 1000 meters, or about 3300 feet
above sea level. You still get significantly thinner air than sea level, but you
can still breathe. It is a covered track, but still open air. It's too bad Indurain
didn't try the hour record there. I think that he would have done a really fast
time, especially after just winning the TT worlds, but he didn't care for tight
tracks, and the Cali track has relatively long straights and tight turns. Bogota,
Colombia, where the Worlds were in 1995, are at approximately 2600 meters, or 8500
feet. Unscientific conclusions were that for pursuiting, even at only 3 1/2 to 4
1/2 minutes long, the altitude was of greater disadvantage for oxygen uptake than
the benefit of less wind resistance from the thinner air. The exceptions were the
200m time trials of course, and the women's 500m and men's kilo. I can't remember
if there was a world record set in the women's 500, but Curt Harnett crushed the
old 200m record with a 9.85. 4 other riders qualified with sub 10 second times,
too. Shane Kelly won the kilo in a time of 1:00.6 That's *averaging* 60 kph for a
minute, starting from a dead stop at the beginning of that minute.
However, the track in Bogota is nothing special compared to the Alto-Irpavi track
outside of La Paz, Bolivia. La Paz is at 3600 meters, or 11,800 feet above sea
level, and the track is supposedly located on a mountain above the city.
Ryan M. Crissey
explain it better, but here is something that was explained to me once. As the
track gets steeper, and the rider goes faster, and leans over more, the less
G-forces would add extra resistance, rolling resistance on a bicycle isn't
about optimum. Most world records are set on 250's (other than those set at
the obsurdly high Cali track). Of course, we may get Jobst in here to explain
that the banking of the track doesn't matter because you always rider
perpendicular to the surface, but we'll cross that when we get there.
Ryan Crissey
MSchadAPI
>Velodrome in Portland. I've been riding at Piccolo now since it's inception
>and I can assure you it's nothing as
It's possible. Then again, the picture I saw was on the Internet. Perhaps it
was distorted, but the turns sure did seem to change very abruptly into the
straights. I'll be in Miami sometime in spring on vacation and would like to
possibly race at Piccolo. Do you know of a schedule online?? I'm cat4.
Thanks!
Mark S.
Jason Thomas Vance
Turn radius!!! The banking allows the rider to stay on the track; I've
spoken to people who have ridden at Hellyer (relatively shallow banking)
behind the motor at 40+ mph saying they had problems with their rear wheel
sliding uptrack...this could be problems with postion in the saddle and
weight distribution, however if the track was shallower, this problem may
be more common.
The cyclist is going to turn 180 degrees while trying to maintain as high
of speed as possible. If the turn is wide, with the least deviation from a
straight line (as little as possible considering a 180 degree turn over a
short distance), the rider will experience the least amount of loss in
speed as his/her momentum attempts to continue forward as the cyclist
turns. If the turn is tighter, or the radius shorter, the transition from
straight to curve will be more abrupt and the tendency for momentum to
resist angular change greater.
Physics also states that any body moving along a circular path at constant
speed is accelerating. This sounds contradictory, and I wish I could
explain it better because I am no phsyics prof. but the body's momentum is
directed in the direction tangent to the path of the curve while the body
continues to follow the curve. This constant change in the direction of
momentum, which is not linear nor on the same path as the change in
position, effects the cyclist by resisting his/her progress, requiring
acceleration (in a physiscs sense) to maintain the same speed.
I would think most records are set on 250's because these tracks records
are set on have unusually fast surfaces (treated wood of some sort), high
bankings, and the turns are wide enough to not effect the cyclist's speed,
unlike Alpenrose which has been compared to a cigar in shape (relatively
long straights, super tight corners), has a fairly bumpy painted concrete
surface, and usually has a head-wind blowing in one direction IF it isn't
raining (but it is dang fun to ride).
Anybody else have a theory on this? What are the relative altitudes of the
tracks most often used for record attempts?
-Jason
Mark Hickey
>I'm sure that we could get some of the math and physics gurus in here to
>explain it better, but here is something that was explained to me once. As the
>track gets steeper, and the rider goes faster, and leans over more, the less
>distance his body actually travels. While common sense tells us that the
>G-forces would add extra resistance, rolling resistance on a bicycle isn't
>actually that great. Obviously there are limits, but it seems that 250 is
>about optimum.
Well, I don't count myself as a "physics guru", but I just did some
calculations...
I figure I can break the hour record easily now... providing I can
overcome the following "details"...
First, I have to get a pipe that's about 3m in diameter (10 feet). and
maybe 2m (6.5 feet) tall.
Then, I have to figure out how to get started (that's going to be the
toughest part).
Then, I have to be able to ride around it at a speed that will hold me
to the "wall" with centrifugal force (easy enough) without puking
(probably a lot more difficult).
I also figure that wind resistance won't be a big problem, since the
air inside the "tube" will be whizzing around at the same speed I am.
My calculations show that my tires will trace about 84km in one hour,
even though my head will only go about 10km.... ;-)
Les Earnest
> What occurs in turns is that the center of the mass of the rider and
> bike is not located at the bike/track interface (track corner
> radius), but roughly on a turn whose radius slightly smaller than
> the radius of the track. Because the center of mass is traveling at
> the same rate of speed as the wheels on the straightaways, the
> center of mass carries the (straightaway) speed through the shorter
> radius turn. This means the wheels actually have to speed up to
> travel the extra distance through the (slightly larger) turns.
Given that the transitions from turns to straightaways and back impose
design and performance problems, I wonder if a circular velodrome has
ever been tried. While eliminating the transitions would alter the
tactical aspects of competition a bit, I expect that it would be ideal
for time trial and persuit competition and would probably reduce
accident rates a bit in mass start events.
Unfortunately developing such a track on an experimental basis would
be a costly undertaking.
----
Les Earnest (l...@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 650 941-3984
Computer Science Dept.; Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: 650 941-3934
Jason Thomas Vance
On 22 Dec 1999, Les Earnest wrote:
>
> Given that the transitions from turns to straightaways and back impose
> design and performance problems, I wonder if a circular velodrome has
> ever been tried. While eliminating the transitions would alter the
> tactical aspects of competition a bit, I expect that it would be ideal
> for time trial and persuit competition and would probably reduce
> accident rates a bit in mass start events.
>
> Unfortunately developing such a track on an experimental basis would
> be a costly undertaking.
>
> ----
> Les Earnest (l...@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 650 941-3984
> Computer Science Dept.; Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: 650 941-3934
you would be accelerating nearly 100% of the time if you rode a circular
track (physics explains this when a body is moving in a circular path at a
constant speed, net velocity is zero, and the body is accelerating due to
the constantly changing vector of momentum). You would be trying to
overcome this the entire time you were riding (unless you went uptrack,
then you would be overcoming gravity). The fastest track possible would
incorporate the longest straights possible with the widest radius turns
possible. Consider a motor-speedway oval (1 to 2 miles)...if this were
made out of covered wood, indoors, at altitude, it would be much faster
than any 250-333m track of similar environment because the rider would be
cycling a "straight" line more of the time and the rider would not have to
overcome changing his/her direction of momentum (or overcome not as great
of magnitude) as they would on a shorter, tighter radius track.
-Jason
Ryan M. Crissey
>What occurs in turns...
Yeah, that's what I wrote, too.
>Circumference for a half circle is...
The only correction is that by UCI rules a 250 track must have a radius of
20-24 meters, 28-35 meters for 333, and 40-50 meters for 400. I wasn't going
to get into the math of how much less distance the rider travels than the bike,
but you illustrated the point.
>Anyone who has ridden one of the 333 tracks
I've ridden my share.
>and the Vandedrome
Nope, hadn't been there.
>Actually Cali ia at a really good altitude...
>Bogota, Columbia,
Damn, it was Bogota that I was thinking of that was really high. I'll have to
go to La Paz some time to set a PR in the 200.
Thanks Carl,
Ryan Crissey
Brian Roth
>
> Carl Sundquist writes:
> > What occurs in turns is that the center of the mass of the rider and
> > bike is not located at the bike/track interface (track corner
> > radius), but roughly on a turn whose radius slightly smaller than
> > the radius of the track. Because the center of mass is traveling at
> > the same rate of speed as the wheels on the straightaways, the
> > center of mass carries the (straightaway) speed through the shorter
> > radius turn. This means the wheels actually have to speed up to
> > travel the extra distance through the (slightly larger) turns.
>
> design and performance problems, I wonder if a circular velodrome has
> ever been tried. While eliminating the transitions would alter the
> tactical aspects of competition a bit, I expect that it would be ideal
> for time trial and persuit competition and would probably reduce
> accident rates a bit in mass start events.
>
> Unfortunately developing such a track on an experimental basis would
> be a costly undertaking.
>
> ----
> Les Earnest (l...@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 650 941-3984
> Computer Science Dept.; Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: 650 941-3934
Years ago (1920's 30's) they had auto tracks exactly as you described.
And I believe they were made out of wood. I've seen film of the races
(They simply mouned a camera at the center of the track and continuisly
panned in a circle, providing an excellent view considering the era).
It looked prettly insane.
Doug McLerran
MSchadAPI <msch...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991221132218...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
> >Steep bankings will aid the rider to hit top speed, but whether they can
> >carry this to the finish will depend on the turn radius.
> >
> >-Jason
> >
> The amount of drop from the turns to the straights may also make a
difference.
seen
> pictures of the velodrome in Ft. Lauderdale (Piccolo Park?), where the top
of
> the turns drops very abruptly into the straights, which themselves are
almost
> flat. Might be cool to get a flying start off one of those "cliffs".
I've not ridden the FL track, but I *thought* when they built it they said
it was a duplicate of Co Springs - 333 with 33 degrees banking. I think
T-town is 333, something like 28 degrees. T-town is a great track and has
the best programs in the US, so don't have too high of expectations when you
travel to other tracks.
Doug McLerran
> <ALEX....@gte.net> wrote:
>
> > The New Mexico velodrome...
> > The goal is to have the track up and running in the coming year.
National
> > caliber racing shortly thereafter. The track's 250M and steep banking
> > combined with an altitude of over a mile all but ensure that this will
be
> > the fastest track venue in the USA. THE place to set the next round of
US
> > Track records.
>
> Why would it be faster than CO Springs?
I think that if the wood 250 track has the smoothness and nice transitions
of Blaine, combined with altitude; it will be faster than concrete Co
Springs, which I think is kinda bumpy compared to Blaine.
thomas arnone
transitions ,no false banking. Anyone with 400 or 500 thousand $
interested ? tom
ALEX ANDEL
near future if I am right.
Alex
Warren wrote in message <201219992214562017%war...@usvh.com>...
DESAY
>it was a duplicate of Co Springs - 333 with 33 degrees banking. I think
>T-town is 333, something like 28 degrees. T-town is a great track and has
>the best programs in the US, so
Actually, the turns at the Piccolo Velodrome are 30 degrees. The blue prints
of Co Springs were used as a model but changes were implemented, the angle of
the banking being one of those changes.
While being greatly under-utilized it offers a warm weather facility the year
round.
Today the temperature is suppose to go to the 80 degree mark. A cold front is
expected this weekend with the barometer dropping to a frigid 60 degrees.
Larry D
thomas arnone
a copy of "The Golden Age of the American
Racing Car" by Grif Borgeson , Bonanza Books. Also tells why circular
tracks didn't work out [spectator seating and danger ] tom