My own twisted vision ...
Sandy
perhaps. I have my doubts, first that they are the good guys, second
that we know the bad guys, and third, that business interests and well
executed PR are fully capable of eviscerating basic human values,
rights, ideals.
First, the fact underlying the TdF's aggressive move to force
disqualification of riders and teams puts it a league or two ahead of
the UCI, which appears intractably slow. If you recall that ASO is
making every effort to disjoin the Pro Tour from the shows put on by
itself and the other two Grand Tour organizations, you can see that it
is striking a big blow on the monopoly of the UCI, and at the same time
presenting itself as the only arbiter of justice. It is bound, one
could think, by the TAS decision of yesterday, yet it makes clear that
it will not abide by that ruling. Here's some hard work for some good
lawyers this very day. So, I call into question ASO's motives, deplore
the passivity of the UCI, and start wondering about the next players -
The Guardia civil and the press.
The Guardia civil is not the _judge_ of the matter, it is the organ of
prosecution. Try to think if they may want to present the strongest
case they can - well, of course ! The publicity of this case will far
outweigh (I predict - and call me on it later) the level of success they
eventually may have after court proceedings are complete. Try to recall
the ineffective but loud intrusion the Carabinieri had in the Giro, with
virtually no conviction results to crow about. The Guardia civil is
doing what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings,
and I find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.
Without a proper (substantively and procedurally) court determination of
the guilt or innocence of the individuals whose names have been
published, they are not the bad guys. People will believe something bad
about a person if they wish to, using thin or no evidence to support
that belief, and ignoring the contrary. Until a finder of fact has
examined everything presented, we will only have rumormongers and
ideologues of all camps to listen to. Not to mention, again, the press,
which earn its living by publishing, not by nicely respecting the civil
rights, the humane treatment, of those whose careers they put in jeopardy.
Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
tie their own shoelaces.
This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
all spheres.
My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
burn the witches.
--
Sandy
Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
Je veux seulement ne pas être là quand elle arrivera.
jt
>
>Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
>innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
>contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
>the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.
Even the appearance of wrongdoing or unethical behavior is bad
publicity for them and to be seen as complacent makes them appear to
be sponsoring the behavior.
B. Lafferty
"Sandy" <leu...@frreee.fr> wrote in message
news:44a516c1$0$9623$636a...@news.free.fr...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tie shoe laces or a judge and/or jury
for that matter. :-)
Robert Chung
> If you recall that ASO is
> making every effort to disjoin the Pro Tour from the shows put on by
> itself and the other two Grand Tour organizations, you can see that it
> is striking a big blow on the monopoly of the UCI, and at the same time
> presenting itself as the only arbiter of justice.
Yeah, that was the second thing that struck me. When something happens,
people who do a shallow job of analyzing it ask "why?" You often get much
better insights by asking "why did that thing happen at the moment it
did?" ASO has been shocked, shocked to discover that doping is going on
and is trying to lead the way to clean riding. Yeah, right. A much better
question is "why is ASO doing this now?" I figured it was because of the
long-term struggle between ASO and the ProTour/UCI. Anyway, that was the
second thing. The first was this:
> The Guardia civil is
> doing what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings,
> and I find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
> disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.
A well-placed leak can be quite effective at bolstering a weak case. That
isn't to say that this case will turn out to be weak--but my sense is that
at the moment the case is certainly incomplete. First we heard of 200 bags
of blood, then 58 names, then 31 of those names got released. This doesn't
mean that 27 other names won't get released in the next few days--it
simply means that the case is incomplete. So the question isn't "why is
the Guardia Civil leaking the case?" but rather "why are they leaking it
now?"
Bill C
Thank You!!!
You put the words, and thoughts together beautifully, effectively, and
rationally. If I ever get back there and get in trouble I'm coming
looking for you to help me out.
Bill C
yeahyeah
Robert Chung wrote:
> A well-placed leak can be quite effective at bolstering a weak case. That
> isn't to say that this case will turn out to be weak--but my sense is that
> at the moment the case is certainly incomplete. First we heard of 200 bags
> of blood, then 58 names, then 31 of those names got released. This doesn't
> mean that 27 other names won't get released in the next few days--it
> simply means that the case is incomplete. So the question isn't "why is
> the Guardia Civil leaking the case?" but rather "why are they leaking it
> now?"
Conspiracy theory: Disco really wants Hincapie to win the TdF, so they
"made sure" to remove his main competition.
Sandy
B. Lafferty
Will that aid digestion?
Sandy
Robert Chung <m...@address.invalid> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Why now ??? Asking me to disclose the even darker recesses ?
Because ASO wants to neuter UCI, establish the primacy of private enterprise
championships, offer a haven to Dick Pound, boost its public image, yet PR
this edition of the Tour as KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ! In short - money.
Because Guardia civil is a Spanish organ, likes power, likes to spend money,
wants to stop terrorism (that was for amusement), and can avoid showing its
incompetence for having missed last year's Vuelta, and provide a
KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN Vuelta 2006. Not to mention the support of private
enterprise, moral superiority, and stabbing the Tour 2006 perhaps mortally
(just 2006, not the entire future offspring). And because (?) the leak was
inopportunely going to be public without their control.
But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.
yeahyeah
Or maybe the ASO is just afraid that the World Cup will wholly eclipse
the Tour and they're just trying to get some attention. Bad attention
is better than no attention.
Sandy
news:1151675688.1...@h44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
yeahyeah <pedal...@hotmail.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
> Or maybe the ASO is just afraid that the World Cup will wholly eclipse
> the Tour and they're just trying to get some attention. Bad attention
> is better than no attention.
You may not have noticed, but the prologue was moved from late in the day to
the afternoon to avoid conflict with the 3-4 consolation final. It's a
busy, busy, busy day on the couch.
Robert Chung
> But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.
That's what they want you to believe.
BTW, what do you make of Valverde being the only rider to be pre-emptively
cleared? (I was going to capitalize "only" but decided that would be a bit
much.)
Simon Brooke
('j...@anywhere.com') wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:19:14 +0200, Sandy <leu...@frreee.fr> wrote:
>>
>>Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
>>innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
>>contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered.
>>By the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
>
> All this is irrelevant when you have sponsors financing these teams.
Exactly. At least for Ullrich and Sevilla, it seems to be the sponsor who
insisted they go. I'd be very surprised if CSC (the company) didn't have
a similar attitude. He who pays the piper...
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.
Sandy
Robert Chung <m...@address.invalid> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Now that's easy !
He'll be the first guy since Merckx to win the yellow, green, dotted, white
and all other jerseys. Provided he finishes. His average speed may queer
your chart. I am getting the hang for statistical outliers.
Hunter
Sandy wrote:
>
> But really, timing is just as often chance. /El Pais/ saw to that.
C'mon, ASO hardlining T-Mobile and the others 1.5 days before the race
began was not chance. ASO did not want there to be any right of the
riders or teams to refute the accusations. ASO wished to force
outright suspensions by maximizing crisis. Get rid of those riders
before they took the start under investigation.
Sandy
l'Équipe have no ownership interests in /El Pais/. Crisis of the sort
in progress doesn't get French people more interested, I fear. Yes,
it's an international event, but 70% of the roadside is French, 90%
European, and they are the targets of commercialization.
yeahyeah
I'm curious, what do you think might happen if a doping scandal of this
sort were to happen to football/soccer during the world cup?
Donald Munro
> Saying it kindly - you have your moral compass shoved up your ass.
Thats most inconvenient; it doesn't leave much room for caffeine
suppositories (or a head).
Sandy
Alternatively, nothing.
Curtis L. Russell
>This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
>all spheres.
>My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
>cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
>burn the witches.
Actually, it boils down to the fact that Jan has made good bucks/Euros
from the public following cycling: even if these cyclists are treated
exactly the same procedurally as everyone else, that same public
brings notoriety and the people writing the checks start becoming
unhappy.
The system in the U.S. is largely the same, with the prosecutor having
the real authority through the grand jury system and in any major
case, the only ones happy are the lawyers IF they can collect from
their clients. Reputations can't be reassembled, memories can't be
expurgated. Check out the Duke lacrosse team (and trust me, as a
University of Maryland fan, I hate Duke in a sports fan kind of way).
This Tour has an asterisk that won't go away and we need to move on.
End the Tours, kill off the Olympics and lets have nine-ten months of
one days and week long tours. Easier on my TV viewing as well. And OLN
can go back to fly fishing and maybe add bear baiting to their list.
Now there's a sport, unless they put either the bearl or the dogs on
steroids...
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
matabala
"Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> wrote in message
news:44a52c6c$0$22869$626a...@news.free.fr...:
> Because ASO wants to neuter UCI, establish the primacy of private
> enterprise championships, offer a haven to Dick Pound, boost its public
> image, yet PR this edition of the Tour as KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN ! In short -
> money.
>
> Because Guardia civil is a Spanish organ, likes power, likes to spend
> money, wants to stop terrorism (that was for amusement), and can avoid
> showing its incompetence for having missed last year's Vuelta, and provide
> a KLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN Vuelta 2006. Not to mention the support of private
> enterprise, moral superiority, and stabbing the Tour 2006 perhaps mortally
> (just 2006, not the entire future offspring). And because (?) the leak
> was inopportunely going to be public without their control.
>
forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
tie their own shoelaces."
Glad to see that you've taken yourself at your own words. Seems like when
it comes to intuiting truth, forming judgments or castigating others, you do
it as well as the rest of this forum's participants.
Sandy
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:19:14 +0200, Sandy <leu...@frreee.fr> wrote:
>
>
>> This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
>> all spheres.
>> My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
>> cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
>> burn the witches.
>>
>
> Actually, it boils down to the fact that Jan has made good bucks/Euros
> from the public following cycling: even if these cyclists are treated
> exactly the same procedurally as everyone else, that same public
> brings notoriety and the people writing the checks start becoming
> unhappy.
Worth noting, however, how many of the NAMES are not the big earners. 30
000€ for start, less taxes and social charges, is not really royal.
That's microeconomic - get macro, and you have a big pig to wrestle with.
Sandy
read soon.
Alex Rodriguez
Ma...@Italia.com says...
>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tie shoe laces or a judge and/or jury
>for that matter. :-)
Yes, but I would hope a judge and/or jury would hear more evidence than what is
presented by the biased press.
----------------
Alex
Curtis L. Russell
>Worth noting, however, how many of the NAMES are not the big earners. 30
>000€ for start, less taxes and social charges, is not really royal.
>That's microeconomic - get macro, and you have a big pig to wrestle with.
It is also when you starting asking who wrote the checks. Jan could do
it from petty cash - those making petty cash can't.
Luke
<leu...@frreee.fr> wrote:
<big snip>
> Finally, it is this collection of rights : rights to a presumption of
> innocence ; right to fair and free access to justice ; right to
> contradict the organs of state - these rights are being dismembered. By
> the press, the state, the ASO and UCI.
> BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY - by the members of the public *especially in this
> forum* who think they have the moral qualifications to intuit truth,
> form judgments, castigate others, all without having enough knowledge to
> tie their own shoelaces.
Thought provoking stance. Perhaps my perspective is a simplistic
reduction, but I don't consider this farce to be unduly inimical to the
sanctity of cherished tenets. Consider the scenario of an executive
removed from an account because his involvement, perceived or in
reality, is detrimental to the client's interests. Or a politician,
perhaps completely innocent, who, out of deference to the dignity of
the institution -- no joke intended!, temporarily stands down from a
cabinet position while the storm clouds of scandal blow over.
There are many stations in life that require, like Caesar's wife, that
one remain not merely innocent, but above substantive suspicion. It
seems that a participant of the TdF must now satisfy that criterion.
And why should that be so audacious? The primary function of the TdF
and facsimiles is to sell banking services, hearing aids, and develop
brand awareness -- that a bicycle race transpires and is usually
entertaining is incidental. Stripped of the spandex and exotic
machinery, members of the pro-peleton are just high priced salesmen and
PR men. If you pay millions to a pro-athlete to push Coke and a photo
winds up on the internet of him quaffing a Pepsi he can kiss the
endorsement deal good-bye. Nothing to do with justice; everything to do
with $.
So why obfuscate the issue with notions of innocence, guilt, loyalty
and justice -- quaint notions that have little bearing in world of
commerce, multi-million dollar contracts, and pro-athletes? Christ, a
stage winner of the TdF gets a stuffed lion from a bank not a wreath of
olives from the gods! Corporations have no conscience; pity the
gullible who believe such a blatantly commercial enterprise as the TdF
is illuminated by enlightened principles.
>
> This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
> all spheres.
Bread and circuses. And doped cyclists in tights. That's entertainment!
> My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
> cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
> burn the witches.
Burning books provides greater illumination ;).
Luke
Sandy
- won a cycling race in any recognized federation.
- dealt with the prospect of severe jeopardy to freedom or reputation.
But your advanced diploma in elementary cynicism and anti-corporate
harangue is well earned.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
Mikko J Virtanen
> Even the appearance of wrongdoing or unethical behavior is bad
> publicity for them and to be seen as complacent makes them appear to
> be sponsoring the behavior.
I've allways wondered how the Festina bosses see the '98
affair. People will be talking about the Festina affair long after the
firm itself is gone.
MJ;
--
.signature necesse est
Luke
<leu...@frreee.fr> wrote:
> Two things you have never done, I speculate :
>
> - won a cycling race in any recognized federation.
Right.
> - dealt with the prospect of severe jeopardy to freedom or reputation.
Wrong.
> But your advanced diploma in elementary cynicism and anti-corporate
> harangue is well earned.
Evidently not. I was enrolled in advanced cynicism.
Luke
Donald Munro
> I've allways wondered how the Festina bosses see the '98
> affair. People will be talking about the Festina affair long after the
> firm itself is gone.
No publicity is bad publicity.
Sandy
equipment.
Mikko J Virtanen
> No publicity is bad publicity.
So this time it will be called Operation Puerto, right? There seems to
be no commercial potential a la Tyson chocolate ears in it. Badly
planned, if you ask me.
Curtis L. Russell
Limbaugh caught with Viagra? That could be a bad association going
both ways.
b...@mambo.ucolick.org
> > The Guardia civil is
> > doing what it can to get the matter settled without actual proceedings,
> > and I find it hard to imagine that the culminated investigation was not
> > disclosed - there was no effort in /El Pais/ obtaining the information.
>
> A well-placed leak can be quite effective at bolstering a weak case. That
> isn't to say that this case will turn out to be weak--but my sense is that
> at the moment the case is certainly incomplete. First we heard of 200 bags
> of blood, then 58 names, then 31 of those names got released. This doesn't
> mean that 27 other names won't get released in the next few days--it
> simply means that the case is incomplete. So the question isn't "why is
> the Guardia Civil leaking the case?" but rather "why are they leaking it
> now?"
You're familiar with the breakfast scene in "The Manchurian Candidate"
where Angela Lansbury and her patsy Senator husband finally decide
how many communists are on the Senator's list, right?
As for why the Spanish authorities are releasing it now (it's no longer
a leak) - doesn't anyone here follow sports?
<http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2006/matchreport/0,,1807586,00.html>
June 28, 2006: France 3 - 1 Spain
Ribéry 41, Vieira 83, Zidane 90; Villa 28pen
It's only right that one national humiliation should be repaid
by another.
But really, I think the answer is the Tommy Weasel and LANCE
Conspiracy. LANCE, angered by L'Equipe's report and JM Leblanc's
immediately pushing LANCE in front of the bus, has determined
to undermine the Tour's credibility for good. If this year's winner
has an asterisk, LANCE remains the last "real" winner.
Ben
Dan Gregory
> As for why the Spanish authorities are releasing it now (it's no longer
> a leak) - doesn't anyone here follow sports?
> <http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2006/matchreport/0,,1807586,00.html>
> June 28, 2006: France 3 - 1 Spain
> Ribéry 41, Vieira 83, Zidane 90; Villa 28pen
> It's only right that one national humiliation should be repaid
> by another.
>
> But really, I think the answer is the Tommy Weasel and LANCE
> Conspiracy. LANCE, angered by L'Equipe's report and JM Leblanc's
> immediately pushing LANCE in front of the bus, has determined
> to undermine the Tour's credibility for good. If this year's winner
> has an asterisk, LANCE remains the last "real" winner.
Heard mention during the Italy match commentray of the Juventus coach
"falling" out of his office window. Accident(al death of an Anarchist)?
And that Argentinian Manchestre Untied player who went apeshit when they
lost to Germany sure looked high on something..... which links in again
with Manu/Juventus, drugs and .....silence.
Michael Press
[...]
Thanks. I agree entirely.
> This is turning into an event of mobocracy, with all kinds of actors of
> all spheres.
> My opinion - the dopers (whoever they are) have done less damage to
> cycling that have all the above. Yeah - I suppose lots of you plan to
> burn the witches.
Many people here have been saying all along exactly what
you say: that the riders take _all_ the blame.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> And OLN
> can go back to fly fishing and maybe add bear baiting to their list.
> Now there's a sport, unless they put either the bearl or the dogs on
> steroids...
Think about it. There is only one sport that is at all
fair to the animal: bull riding. The bull always wins.
There was a bull named Bodacious. He was so much tougher
than the other bulls that he had to be removed from the
circuit in fairness to the riders. One of the best riders
ever was on B. B. jumped his hind quarters forcing the
rider forward, then jerked back his head breaking most of
the bones in the rider's face.
--
Michael Press
Frank Drackman
"Alex Rodriguez" <ad...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:e83qje$qqd$8...@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu...
Unless the articles that I read were wrong the teams acted on information
supplied to ASO by Spanish authorities not the press.