Wordin Story
Carlsun
Someone had the class to reprimand me via e-mail, rather than flame me in rbr
about the views I have been expressing on this thread. They reminded me that
Wordin *has* been one of the few organizers to emerge on the US pro cycling
front in the past few years, compared to the number of pro organizations which
have disappeared lately. I had been aware of that all along, but had not made
mention of it due to the point of view I was taking. Although they were not
publicly known until the bit in VeloNews yesterday, also in support of Wordin
are the riders who have chosen to align themselves with him for the 98 season,
particularly Knickman, whom I have a very high regard for, though not to the
exclusion of the other riders on the roster.
The crux of my comments on this thread were trying to focus on 2 things: the
relationship of CC and the team regarding fulfilling contracts between CC and
the team, advertising the team, and the distinction between CC, the team, and
the riders' paychecks; and my opinions on the likelihood of the riders
ultimately receiving the remainder of their paychecks.
My errors were that I, like those I admonished, was writing without all the
facts and implying blame where it doesn't necessarily lie. I inferred
incorrectly or correctly, I still don't know, that the responsibility for the
riders not getting paid was with Wordin. I do not have any information which
would show that he specifically was the reason, or even part of the reason that
thew riders didn't get paid. Since I know nothing about Comptel or its
relationship (good or bad) with the team, I did not mention them. Consequently
and unfortunately, without any proof on my part, I inferred that Wordin bore
responsibility for the riders paychecks. It was very wrong of me to presume
that, and even more wrong of me to say so without having the appropriate
information to back it up.
I give my sincerest apologies to Wordin and anyone else involved with the
situation who feels that I may have offended them.
My thanks to the person who emailed me.
Carl Sundquist
John Forrest Tomlinson
In <19971224013...@ladder02.news.aol.com> car...@aol.com
Very nice thoughts that got me thinking about New Year's resolutions.
One of mine is that I will try to be as reasonable as Carl is in the
above posts in all aspects of my life.
The other two are to hold my weight to 150lbs and to complete 90% of
planned workouts.
Happy holidays!!!
JT
nbce...@delphi.com
My reading of this thread is not tha Wordin has been in the hot seat.
Questions were raised about who was responsible for labor not being paid
for work done....that might even include Wordin.
It seems clear that someone, probably Comptel if CC's assertion of
performance are correct, did not provide funds in accordance with their
obligations
and the fiders were screwed. From comments I have received via email which
I will maintain in confidence as requested, it seems to me that today's US
"pros" are little better off than the top amateurs of the late 70s and
early 80s. Very sad given all the money that gets shuffled around the
USCF/USAC headquarters. Where are they when the riders take the shaft?
Brian Lafferty
Jim Ross
Along the same lines, I think it is noteworthy and interesting that
three riders from Comptel/CC have resigned with John Wordin's new team.
I know all three of these riders and two of them I know fairly well. Of
the two that I know well, these guys are very nice people, they are
intelligent, they are always willing to lend a helpful hand to other
cyclists and I respect them both. I consider the area that I live in to
be lucky to have both of these individuals also living in it. The fact
that these riders have resigned with John Wordin makes me believe that
there is alot more to the story than has been reported here and that we
should be careful about laying blame without knowing all the facts.
Carlsun
>Very sad given all the money that gets shuffled around the
>USCF/USAC headquarters. Where are they when the riders take the shaft?
Either off on a trip somewhere or trying to hold onto their jobs. (Just a joke,
folks.)
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>Either off on a trip somewhere or trying to hold onto their jobs. (Just a joke,
>folks.)
Brian Lafferty
Qcwpete
JT,
I gave Cathy your number. She will probably not wind up calling you as she by
chance met Elisabeth Emery and the two of them hit it off. She'll probably do
her riding with Emery.
I do know JP. And he has probably talked about me in my capicity as a staffer
for Saturn Cycling (and Navigators before that). I am the Team Chiropractor,
knee specialist and Assnt Soungier. In fact I think I looked at JP's knees
once a few years ago.
Thanks again for your offer to help my rider.
Best of the holidays.
Peter Durdaller
TMaloney1
Happy Holidays...the fact remains that there are many other riders such as
Malcolm Elliot and Trent Klasna who were not paid by John Wordin, although he
had a contract with them.
In fact, the 1997 UCI Pro Team roster list reveals that rather than a sporting
group, the Comptel Data Sysyem / Colorado Cyclist team was registered to John
Wordin himself, as both employer and team manager.
Sorry to bring it up once again, but if one has a contract as employer with a
rider for an entire season, one has the obligation to fullfill the terms of the
contract; and if the sponsor pulls the plug for whatever reason, the
employer is left holding the bag according to UCI rules.
It will be interesting to see how the riders on Wordin's new Mercury-Outdoor
Life team are treated...
Tim
Mike476603
Tim wrote:
________
They are all very lucky to be on a team at all. And that's the point that
USPro and Colo Springs needs to start paying attention to. Do something that
helps racers and not yourselves.
nbce...@delphi.com
Mike476603 <mike4...@aol.com> writes:
>They are all very lucky to be on a team at all. And that's the point that
>USPro and Colo Springs needs to start paying attention to. Do something that
>helps racers and not yourselves.
an management for over a century has not shown that management (and the
USCF/USPRO are decidedly management in focus) cares much about labor as long
as the labor is producing the product without interruption.
What is needed, IMHO, is for the riders(lobor) to truly organize to
protect their interests.....including demanding a wage scale and engorcement
of contracts at a minimum. An example of this might be a mechanism to not
alow Wordin to field another team until prior obligations are met, posting
of a surety bond, etc.
I recall a few years ago when masters were not getting much support from
the USCF, they threatened to defect and form their own organization. As the
USCF no longer had the Olympic carrot to manipulate the masters, the USCF
caved in a began more active support of masters racing.
Pro cycling is as much a part of free market capitalism and the
globalization of markets and labor as any industry. Its time the riders
came to understand this and act accordingly. RIDERS OF THE WORLD UNITE (Jobst,
my tongue is firmly implanted in my cheek) !!
Brian Lafferty
Carlsun
> Pro cycling is as much a part of free market capitalism and the
>globalization of markets and labor as any industry. Its time the riders
>came to understand this and act accordingly. RIDERS OF THE WORLD UNITE
As much as I agree with you that "labor" needs a voice with some actual power,
one simply has to look at Formule 1 car racing and Bernie Ecclestone's control
to realize the magnitude of the problem.
The biggest problem I see is that there is only one established event of any
mass marketable size for US cycling, the CoreStates pro championship. There is
no current TV contract worth much (even ESPN doesn't necessarily broadcast the
TdF when they say they will. What that adds up to is dealing "small potatoes"
sponsors, since large corporations tend to shy away from renegade, unproven
organizations. Just look at the NCL for example. Additionally, far as
marketability goes, USAC holds the ultimate trump card, the Olympics. If you
really want change, you'd better expect to work hard for the long term and
expect a a bunch of people to initially jump on the bandwagon, then lose
patience and turn tail and run back to the USCF.
Just my 2 cents on another topic.
TMaloney1
Two points that pertain to the last post by Brian Lafferty:
a ) USA Cycling does not enforce the UCI requirement that a team post a surety
bond (equivalent to 25% of the riders "official" salary )
b ) most pro federations DO have a required minimum contract level; ltaly
has 40 million lire ( $23,000 ); France is 125,000 Francs I believe.
Tim
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>sponsors, since large corporations tend to shy away from renegade, unproven
>organizations. Just look at the NCL for example. Additionally, far as
NCL attorneys are probably preparing a defamation action as I type this.
>organizations. Just look at the NCL for example. Additionally, far as
>marketability goes, USAC holds the ultimate trump card, the Olympics. If you
>really want change, you'd better expect to work hard for the long term and
>expect a a bunch of people to initially jump on the bandwagon, then lose
>patience and turn tail and run back to the USCF.
labor is never easy. I am not hopeful of the long term approach you suggest.
I've seen little indication that it will work with the USCF/USAC in 25 years
of observation (this includes having know more than one USCF Board member).
The only glimmer of hope that I have seen was the initiative earlier this
year to open up the board to non-elite representation.
As an aside, another reason the Masters were able to get "concessions"
was that they represent a substantial slice of the USCF membership. If they
walk the USCF does feel the pain.
Brian Lafferty
nbce...@delphi.com
TMaloney1 <tmal...@aol.com> writes:
>Two points that pertain to the last post by Brian Lafferty:
>a ) USA Cycling does not enforce the UCI requirement that a team post a surety
for USAC's failure (assuming they had an obligation to so enforce due to
their agreements with the UCI), the fiders would be able to tap the value
of that bond.
USAC is REALLY hard at work protecting rider's interests aren't they?!
>b ) most pro federations DO have a required minimum contract level; ltaly
>has 40 million lire ( $23,000 ); France is 125,000 Francs I believe.
>Tim
Brian Lafferty
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>The Oly's are also the currently the biggest marketing asset that USAC has,
>even if they just get a tiny piece of the whole pie...
Where's Avery Brundage when we really need him?
Brian Lafferty
Carlsun
> Better put a good First Amendment attorney on retainer. O'Neil's
>NCL attorneys are probably preparing a defamation action as I type this.
Just trying to fill my quota of false accusations before the end of the year.
> The Olympics are the control card for many riders as you say.
The Oly's are also the currently the biggest marketing asset that USAC has,
even if they just get a tiny piece of the whole pie...
The Oly's are a factor for the riders, but to a lesser sense. For a roadie or
MTB'er it's pretty tough (and foolish) to focus your whole cycling career on
one event every 4 years. Also, up until '96, the pros had forsaken it as an
amateur event.
If there could be a truly pro circuit for the whole season, rather than a 3-4
week span in May & June, that would negate a lot of the "impact" of the
Olympics being the pinnacle of an American cyclist's career. This is already
beginning to evolve, with first 7-eleven, then Motorola being a European based
team (and now US Postal kind of doing the same thing) and Saturn and Colorado
Cyclist making preparatory trips to Europe, although it does seem that the step
of developing a pro season in the States is missing. But these developments in
the past 12-15 years *have* given riders a choice of whether or not to play the
Fed game in order to enhance their chances of riding in the Oly's.
Carlsun
> Where's Avery Brundage when we really need him?
> Brian Lafferty
Pushing up the daisies along with all the Cold War Soviets who thought their
"army" had a few good athletes in it.
Andrew Albright
nbce...@delphi.com wrote:
>
> Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>
> >The Oly's are also the currently the biggest marketing asset that USAC has,
> >even if they just get a tiny piece of the whole pie...
>
> Brian Lafferty
That'll be just about enough obscure references out of both of you
guys. First the Pernot cup and now this Avery Brundage......Makes me
want to throw my saddle in the oven.
Andrew Albright
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>Pushing up the daisies along with all the Cold War Soviets who thought their
>"army" had a few good athletes in it.
poorly paid "professionals" here in the USA today.
Brian Lafferty
nbce...@delphi.com
Andrew Albright <alb...@mail.med.upenn.edu> writes:
>That'll be just about enough obscure references out of both of you
>guys. First the Pernot cup and now this Avery Brundage......Makes me
>want to throw my saddle in the oven.
>
>Andrew Albright
Brian Lafferty
Carlsun
>At least back then we had poorly supported amateurs as opposed to
>poorly paid "professionals" here in the USA today.
Poorly supported amateurs is right! Brundage was supposedly so uptight about
athletes getting support, they couldn't even accept travel money without
risking losing their amateur status.
Hope I got that right 'cause I'm getting close to that false accusation quota!
Carlsun
>.Makes me
>>want to throw my saddle in the oven.
>>
>>Andrew Albright
>
> Be sure to put Proofhide(sp?) on it first.
At the risk of being flamed for posting in the wrong newsgroup, I've got a set
of Universal mod. 61 centerpulls new-in-box you could bolt on...
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>At the risk of being flamed for posting in the wrong newsgroup, I've got a set
>of Universal mod. 61 centerpulls new-in-box you could bolt on...
Brian Lafferty
P.S.- What was this thread originally about?
John Forrest Tomlinson
In <hDWHiyr....@delphi.com> nbce...@delphi.com writes:
>
>Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>
>>At the risk of being flamed for posting in the wrong newsgroup, I've
got a set
>>of Universal mod. 61 centerpulls new-in-box you could bolt on...
>
> Nut or allen key fitting?
If you have to ask, you ain't old-time enough.
JT
Les Earnest
Carlsun wrote:
>sponsors, since large corporations tend to shy away from renegade, unproven
>organizations. Just look at the NCL for example. Additionally, far as
Better put a good First Amendment attorney on retainer. O'Neil's
NCL attorneys are probably preparing a defamation action as I type this.
him some information on how to minimize his operating expenses. In
response he filed a RICO lawsuit against me and several others. I say
"filed" advisedly: he apparently filed it in a local court and gave
copies to reporters, to prove what a tough guy he was, but he never
paid his attorney to have the papers served. The way I found out
about it was from a reporter.
I was disappointed that he didn't take it to court because he would
have been trashed there. Of course that would have exposed his
foolish plan to make bike racing as boring as pro football and might
have wised up some of the fools who later gave him money.
--
Les Earnest (l...@cs.stanford.edu) Phone: 650 941-3984
Computer Science Dept.; Stanford, CA 94305 Fax: 650 941-3934
nbce...@delphi.com
Les Earnest <l...@Steam.Stanford.EDU> writes:
>him some information on how to minimize his operating expenses. In
>response he filed a RICO lawsuit against me and several others. I say
>"filed" advisedly: he apparently filed it in a local court and gave
>copies to reporters, to prove what a tough guy he was, but he never
>paid his attorney to have the papers served. The way I found out
>about it was from a reporter.
of such an action for fear of very real FRCP Rule 11 sanctions. Bullshit
doesn't walk very far in Federal Dictrict Courts in my experience.
Brian Lafferty
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>Wasn't it about the spare time and short attention span of riders during the
>off season?
What?
nbce...@delphi.com
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> writes:
>
>JOKE!!!
Yes. And I thought it was a joke in return. Guess the 3am feedings of
the new arrival are dulling my wits.
Brian Lafferty
Carlsun
>P.S.- What was this thread originally about?
Wasn't it about the spare time and short attention span of riders during the
off season?
Carlsun
>Fear not -- O'Neil is a paper tiger.
There was more than one time when I was riding for the Miami NCL team that I
asked O'Neil who was watching those races on tv at 3 am in between bass fishing
shows.
Andrew Albright
OK, now I am going to have to call bullshit on this "off-season" remark.
Off season? I heard rumors that you were flying back and forth between
Tal, Florida (wind&rain) and Death Valley (hot) ALREADY combo-training
for Master's Nats 1998.
Andrew Albright
p.s. Who is the Wordin guy anyway?
Carlsun
>Off season? I heard rumors that you were flying back and forth between
>Tal, Florida (wind&rain) and Death Valley (hot) ALREADY combo-training
>for Master's Nats 1998.
>
>
No, no. You've got it wrong. I've been training in Guam soI can get ALL the
weather factors of Tallahassee: Hurricanes, wind, sun, heat, humidity, rain all
in one place. Besides Ken Carpenter's uncle owns the Budweiser distributorship
on the island, so I get a discount! Why would I train in a place like Death
Valley which doesn't have humidity (except for El Nino)?
Carlsun
>What?
JOKE!!!
Ilan Vardi
In article <19971227180...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Actually, I prefer his principle of "contamination." In other words, you
can be an amateur and never be paid a penny for anything you've ever
done, but if you compete against a professional, then you lose your amateur
status. A similar thing happened in 1992 when Butch Reynolds had to run
the 400m US Olympic trials alone because other runners would be "infected"
by his banned status.
Didn't Brundage compete with Jim Thorpe in the 1912 Olympics? If so, then
this could be the source of his maniacal interpretation of amateurism.
-ilan
Ilan Vardi
In article <19971228020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Carlsun <car...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Off season? I heard rumors that you were flying back and forth between
>>Tal, Florida (wind&rain) and Death Valley (hot) ALREADY combo-training
>>for Master's Nats 1998.
Florida, Death Valley? Today, it was 75 degrees in LA, giving me a
chance to try out my new 55x11 set-up.
-ilan
Ilan Vardi
In article <19971228001...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
I was watching!
Favorite NCL moment: A rather hefty Paul Swift going on the wrong side
of the cones to win a sprint (no flags). Other memorable moments:
Every sprint at Universal City, where cameras were set up so that the
finish line was not visible.
Weirdest statement by Rosenbloom: "Everybody's talking about the new
Barcelona franchise." (I'm afraid I don't remember any interesting
comments from co-anchor Alexi Grewal.)
Hey, I even watched the NBC triple-cast featuring the same Alan
Rosenbloom as did the NCL commentary--you couldn't miss that
connection, because he kept reminding the viewing audience (which was
probably smaller than an NCL audience) about the growth of the NCL.
(He also stated that Jamaica was a country with little cycling heritage.)
-ilan