Cipollini: Velodrome Racer
Ronaldo Jeremiah
he'd like to do the IP at the Olympics.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/nov03/nov27news
I'm sure in the end this won't happen, but it still makes me wonder
why, when he talks about this, he considers the IP rather than the
kilo. I think Cipo would be well suited to the kilo, and not so well
suited to the IP.
-RJ
warren
Jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Consider what Cipo is really best at. He can go very hard for 3-6k's
and then when his teammate pulls over he tries to maintain his speed or
maybe accelerate a little bit.
-WG
Carl Sundquist
"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f41cdbc.0311...@posting.google.com...
Because by being a road racer, he probably can't bench his body weight or Romanian
deadlift 2x his body weight. Therefore he can't get off the start line quickly enough to
be a top kilo rider.
David Anderson
Romanian
deadlift 2x his body weight. Therefore he can't get off the start line
quickly enough to
be a top kilo rider.
Consider this:
Bobby Lea
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 175lbs
Born: October 17, 1983
Residence: Topton, PA
Discipline: Track Endurance
Team: Team Fuji Bikes
By no means a big guy other than tall, oh ya one more thing:
National Kilo Champion
"
Stewart Fleming
warren wrote:
> Consider what Cipo is really best at. He can go very hard for 3-6k's
I'm nostalgic for the days when the professional IP was 5km...
Dave
"David Anderson" <djand...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Tkdxb.2750$zu1.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> Because by being a road racer, he probably can't bench his body weight or
> Romanian
> deadlift 2x his body weight. Therefore he can't get off the start line
> quickly enough to
> be a top kilo rider.
> Consider this:
>
> Bobby Lea
>>
> National Kilo Champion
Consider this, a 1:06 kilo will get you absolutely nothing at the world level, hardly world class
(the top 22 at worlds went under 1:06) Ok Ok so if Lea was on an indoor track he goes what 1:04?,
still doesn't break the top 15 riders. Not taking anything away from Bobby Lea, but 1:04 kilos are
hardly anything to rant about on the world level.
Consider this, Aussie Nat'l champ Ben Kersten 1:03
Consider this. Masters world champ 30-34 age group went 1:06
Dave
Rik O'Shea
I think Cipo has done the kilo before as a "star appearance" at
invitational track meetings when he was somewhat younger. To perfom
the kilo at world track level you need a lot of specialist training (a
lot of weight training for strength for the start) which might not be
compatable with his road program. The IP on the other hand is more
compatable with what road riders do - a lot of riders who compete on
the road have also competed in the IP at the top level; Boardman,
Ekimov, Moreau, McGee being the prime examples
Sergio SERVADIO
> compatable with what road riders do - a lot of riders who compete on
> the road have also competed in the IP at the top level; Boardman,
> Ekimov, Moreau, McGee being the prime examples
Fausto, too.
Sergio
Pisa
Jay Hill
Match Sprints is what he does in a road race, isn'it it?
Steve McGinty
Nah - closer to Keirin.
Regards!
Stephen
Davide Tosi
Nick Burns
"Stewart Fleming" <s...@cs.otago.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:1069906103.651047@ns...
>
>
> warren wrote:
>
> > Consider what Cipo is really best at. He can go very hard for 3-6k's
Not only does this make more sense but who would have the data (to calculate
which event he is suited to) if the rider and his support team don't? Not
some folks on Usenet.
>
> I'm nostalgic for the days when the professional IP was 5km...
Yeah, me too. It is taking me awhile to get used to all of the changes. None
of the Olympics events are the same for me either.
Carl Sundquist
"Nick Burns" <chrismc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fc64f6d$0$61851$a32e...@news.nntpservers.com...
>
> Yeah, me too. It is taking me awhile to get used to all of the changes. None
> of the Olympics events are the same for me either.
>
>
Ronaldo Jeremiah
> In article <3f41cdbc.0311...@posting.google.com>, Ronaldo
> Jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Cipollini is once again talking about riding the track. He's saying
> > he'd like to do the IP at the Olympics.
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/nov03/nov27news
> >
> > I'm sure in the end this won't happen, but it still makes me wonder
> > why, when he talks about this, he considers the IP rather than the
> > kilo. I think Cipo would be well suited to the kilo, and not so well
> > suited to the IP.
>
> Consider what Cipo is really best at.
Yeah, thanks for that suggestion Warren. I never would have thought
to do that.
He can go very hard for 3-6k's
> and then when his teammate pulls over he tries to maintain his speed or
> maybe accelerate a little bit.
>
> -WG
Lots of guys are sitting in the wheels those last 3-6 k's. What Cipo
does is not stick his nose in the wind until the last few hundred
meters - kinda like a kilo.
I also think the kilo would suit him better cause it's once and done.
You have to ride the pursuit more than once. I'm clear on the fact
that he could do a respectable pursuit, but I think he would do
slightly better at the kilo. I don't think he'd beat the specialists
at either one. That's why he won't do either of them, as we all know.
Carl makes a good point, though - that where he might lose the most to
specialists is at the start. I think his start would probaby be
pretty good, but Carl has me thinking...
btw, what's a Romanian deadlift?
-RJ, half-Romanian
Nick Burns
"Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:vsckqpj...@corp.supernews.com...
I can't find fault with any of that logic but I still miss the events (the
separation of pros and amateurs). I would expect pro roadies that want to
ride track for an event like the World's should ba able to compete at the
longer distance. That was just how I looked at it. Yes, the way I look at it
is that yes the pros would get smoked at 4K but maybe they could hold their
own at 5K. That is always how I looked at it even if I am wrong so I suppose
the strategy of making them ride longer distance worked! lol I got to hang
on to my delusion and hero worship.
What do you think of Cipo? I have no idea how close he woudl come but which
event would you think suits him best? There is no dount in my mind that he
is not built like a kilo rider. He looks like a pursuiter (maybe a little
this but he is close).
Tom Kunich
Do you suppose that was what he was doing at the world championships
when he accelerated away from the pack so fast that when anyone pulled
out into the wind they went backwards?
Steve McGinty
I think he would lose 4 seconds in the first lap of a kilo and at
least a second a lap after that. I also think he's too old for the
pursuit - (okay Lehmann is the exception to this, but he's specialised
for 15 years or so) and would struggle to beat 4'30"
As the sprinters would also blow him away in match or Keirin I don't
really see where he could go with this.
Regards!
Stephen
Sergio SERVADIO
> Cipollini is once again talking about riding the track. He's saying
> he'd like to do the IP at the Olympics.
I don't think he has any chance of cashing success.
The only possible good thing is to resuscitate some interest
in track events in our own country.
Sergio
Pisa
Carl Sundquist
> event would you think suits him best? There is no dount in my mind that he
> is not built like a kilo rider. He looks like a pursuiter (maybe a little
> this but he is close).
>
In a choice of the two, I'd say he'd stand a better chance in the pursuit.
Carl Sundquist
"Steve McGinty" <mcginty_REV...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >
> I think he would lose 4 seconds in the first lap of a kilo and at
> least a second a lap after that. I also think he's too old for the
> pursuit - (okay Lehmann is the exception to this, but he's specialised
> for 15 years or so) and would struggle to beat 4'30"
>
> As the sprinters would also blow him away in match or Keirin I don't
> really see where he could go with this.
>
For a kilo I think he would lose at most 1.5 s on the first lap, probably 1 - 1.5 sec for
the remainder compared to the winner. Being 2.5 - 3 seconds behind the winner is
borderline non-world class.
For the pursuit, I think much more speculation is involved. Yes, he was world TTT champ
with the Italian team about 100 years ago, but for a more realistic POV remember he wanted
to try to win the TdF prologue a few years back and wasn't really close.
What really screws everything up is that despite the attention getting aspect of his
comments, it is very seldom that you can take Cipo's prognostications seriously.
Steve McGinty
<car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
>
>"Steve McGinty" <mcginty_REV...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> I think he would lose 4 seconds in the first lap of a kilo and at
>> least a second a lap after that. I also think he's too old for the
>> pursuit - (okay Lehmann is the exception to this, but he's specialised
>> for 15 years or so) and would struggle to beat 4'30"
>>
>> As the sprinters would also blow him away in match or Keirin I don't
>> really see where he could go with this.
>>
>
>For a kilo I think he would lose at most 1.5 s on the first lap, probably 1 - 1.5 sec for
>the remainder compared to the winner. Being 2.5 - 3 seconds behind the winner is
>borderline non-world class.
Chris Hoy is doing short 18s for the first lap - do you think Cipo
could go under 20"?
I still think he would struggle to go beat 1'08" for the kilo - he's
way too old and the event is way too specialised.
But I guess it's all theoretical - I can't see how he could qualify
for the Olympics in either Kilo or Pursuit.
Regards!
Stephen
Carl Sundquist
> could go under 20"?
I think he could break 20". The difference between 18.0 and 20.0 is huge.
>
> I still think he would struggle to go beat 1'08" for the kilo - he's
> way too old and the event is way too specialised.
It doesn't take much specialization to break 1:08 on a decent track, but 1:08 isn't world
class either.
Steve McGinty
Respect your views, Carl, but I think your expectations are beyond the
norm - Cipo would struggle to medal in the Kilo in his Fattie Master
age group.
Regards!
Stephen
David Anderson
upper hams and glutes, pushing through with the hips (somewhat like a
standing start). The end result "sprinters ass" aka "monkey butt"
DA
Nick Burns
>
> "Steve McGinty" <mcginty_REV...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > I think he would lose 4 seconds in the first lap of a kilo and at
> > least a second a lap after that. I also think he's too old for the
> > pursuit - (okay Lehmann is the exception to this, but he's specialised
> > for 15 years or so) and would struggle to beat 4'30"
> >
> > As the sprinters would also blow him away in match or Keirin I don't
> > really see where he could go with this.
> >
>
> For a kilo I think he would lose at most 1.5 s on the first lap, probably
1 - 1.5 sec for
> the remainder compared to the winner. Being 2.5 - 3 seconds behind the
winner is
> borderline non-world class.
Yep.
> For the pursuit, I think much more speculation is involved. Yes, he was
world TTT champ
> with the Italian team about 100 years ago, but for a more realistic POV
remember he wanted
> to try to win the TdF prologue a few years back and wasn't really close.
The last prolog that was anywhere close to flat and straight was the Giro of
2 or 3 years ago. I would like to see how he did on that day.
>
> What really screws everything up is that despite the attention getting
aspect of his
> comments, it is very seldom that you can take Cipo's prognostications
seriously.
I would say that sometimes he comes through but you are right in the sense
that he only walks the walk about half the time (or less) he talks the talk.
warren
Jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> warren <war...@usvhremove.com> wrote in message
> news:<261120031712015515%war...@usvhremove.com>...
> > In article <3f41cdbc.0311...@posting.google.com>, Ronaldo
> > Jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Cipollini is once again talking about riding the track. He's saying
> > > he'd like to do the IP at the Olympics.
> > >
> > > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/nov03/nov27news
> > >
> > > I'm sure in the end this won't happen, but it still makes me wonder
> > > why, when he talks about this, he considers the IP rather than the
> > > kilo. I think Cipo would be well suited to the kilo, and not so well
> > > suited to the IP.
> >
> > Consider what Cipo is really best at.
>
> Yeah, thanks for that suggestion Warren. I never would have thought
> to do that.
Well, you didn't. He never exhibits much of an acceleration compared to
several other guys who can accelerate past him in the last 200 meters.
Ergo, not a good jump. He gets less draft than the guys behind him
which means he can maintain very high power for several k's.
>
> He can go very hard for 3-6k's
> > and then when his teammate pulls over he tries to maintain his speed or
> > maybe accelerate a little bit.
> >
> > -WG
>
> Lots of guys are sitting in the wheels those last 3-6 k's. What Cipo
> does is not stick his nose in the wind until the last few hundred
> meters - kinda like a kilo.
Kilo needs a good start. He hasn't shown that ability. Also, see above.
>
> I also think the kilo would suit him better cause it's once and done.
> You have to ride the pursuit more than once.
A guy who can get to the finish of pro road races isn't going to suffer
from multiple rides more than the other guys competing in the pursuit.
-WG
warren
Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Cipo's competitors had to fight for a draft and they expend lots of
energy doing that. Cipo can maintain a more constant speed (and always
in a draft) until the last leadout guy pulls off.
Then after all their work, the guys behind Cipo have to produce more
power than Cipo to go faster than Cipo in order to get around him.
-WG
Ronaldo Jeremiah
OK, I think I see your points better now. I'm still not convinced
that he's better suited to the IP than the kilo, but I see the logic
behind your argument.
-RJ
Carl Sundquist
Remember -- I've never said the Kilo should be Cipollini's thang. I've only responded to
questions as to how I think he would perform in a kilo. I've questioned his launching
ability, which I consider vital to riding a decent kilo at the world class or Olympic
level. Getting to your top speed the quickest is more important than having the absolute
top speed.
But as I said before, there's a huge difference between an 18 s. start lap and a 20 s.
start lap. My point of reference is that way back in the last century, we (the US team)
were doing starts in the 20.5 s range. It was hard, but not close to a 100% effort, and my
starts SUCKED. Anyone who has a video of the US team riding against the Aussies at the
worlds in 1994 can see that on the initial start, I lose about 1 1/2 bike lengths to the
rider in front of me, and I started in the 4th (slowest) position. Cipollini's max power
output surely exceeds my best by far.
Generally speaking, there's no reason for any rider on a division I team to ride slower
than a 1:09* with a little technique training. Mountain goats included.
* on a world class track, with competitive equipment
Benjamin Weiner
This is a good point. You guys are all talking doubtfully about whether
Cipo could qualify for the kilo or pursuit, and comparing his likely
times to the best riders in the world. Okay, so Cipo hasn't been beating
McGee in Tour prologues, either. But quick, name the top Italian track
specialists in kilo or pursuit and their times. I don't know if it's that
deep a field.
Howard Kveck
"Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
What are the differences between kilo opening laps and pursuit opening
laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to the
distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
I think there's a big difference between accelerating from zero or near
zero and accelerating from a fairly high speed: getting your legs moving
vs. getting your legs moving faster. I don't think Cipo ever really has to
accelerate very much once his last guy moves off; they're already going
pretty damn fast. In other words, his ability to hold a very high speed for
a good distance and acclerate a bit after that is excellent, but I don't
think his ability to simply accelerate is all that great. Those
characteristics would probably mean he'd be better suited for the pursuit
than the kilo. Realistically, of course, he's best suited for -talking-
about doing one or the other, rather than actually doing them.
--
tanx,
Howard
"Danger, you haven't seen the last of me!"
"No, but the first of you turns my stomach!"
Firesign Theatre
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Tom Kunich
Warren, most of the time the last leadout man is only going 40-42 mph.
Cipo has been timed over 48 mph in a sprint. And BTW, Robby McEwen was
sitting on Cipos wheel in the draft and Zabel was right behind him.
Neither one of these guys worked as hard as Cipo and yet when Robby
pulled out from behind Cipo it looked like a cartoon - he almost
stopped cold in the wind!
It sort of smacks of elitism to make crude comments about Cipo who has
been the most successful modern sprinter and has throughout his career
made fantastic sprints often with no leadout at all.
Hey, who won Gent-Wevelgem in 2002? Oh, yeah, that no account wheel
sucker.
Dave
"Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-6FD2B...@netnews.attbi.com...
> What are the differences between kilo opening laps and pursuit opening
> laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to the
> distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
A pursuit start is more of a quick roll out of the hole, A kilo Start is an explosion out of the
hole, You can win or lose a Kilo on the start alone whereas in a pursuit you have more time to
correct an error (somewhat)
Dave
warren
Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "warren" <war...@usvhremove.com> wrote in message
> news:271120032218307658%war...@usvhremove.com...
> > In article <XCtxb.19655$sb4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Tom
> > Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Cipo's competitors had to fight for a draft and they expend lots of
> > energy doing that. Cipo can maintain a more constant speed (and
> always
> > in a draft) until the last leadout guy pulls off.
> >
> > Then after all their work, the guys behind Cipo have to produce more
> > power than Cipo to go faster than Cipo in order to get around him.
>
> Warren, most of the time the last leadout man is only going 40-42 mph.
> Cipo has been timed over 48 mph in a sprint.
Don't confuse what happened a few times with what happens most of the
time.
> And BTW, Robby McEwen was
> sitting on Cipos wheel in the draft and Zabel was right behind him.
> Neither one of these guys worked as hard as Cipo and yet when Robby
> pulled out from behind Cipo it looked like a cartoon - he almost
> stopped cold in the wind!
It is very, very difficult to pull out of the draft, and then
accelerate (enough to pass) when the speed is already very high. This
is especially difficult if there is no room to take a run (accelerate)
at the leader's rear wheel while still in the draft.
> It sort of smacks of elitism to make crude comments about Cipo who has
> been the most successful modern sprinter and has throughout his career
> made fantastic sprints often with no leadout at all.
I haven't seen any mass sprint wins by Cipo against other good
sprinters in the last few years when he did not have a near perfect
leadout. Yet we see other guys beating him when the leadout is not
perfect for Cipo. The reason is that they have better acceleration than
Cipo.
I think Cipo is really good at securing the win after perfect work by
his teamates, and there aren't many guys who could do that as well.
-WG
Carl Sundquist
"Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> >
> laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to the
> distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
There is a big difference. Kilo starts are all about explosive power. An individual
pursuit start is much more controlled, less frantic.
This link http://www.bcf.uk.com/interviews/2002/10_hoy_chris.html shows shows Chris Hoy's
kilo lap splits as:
18.120
13.703
14.561
15.509
1:01.893 kilo time
Whereas this link http://ida1.physik.uni-siegen.de/menn/pursuitwm.htm to Boardman's 4:11
pursuit shows a start lap over 4 seconds slower:
22.302
15.847
15.526
15.280
First kilo 1:08.955
4k Pursuit time 4:11
Note that Boardman was still accelerating every lap. If you look at the kilometer splits,
you'll see that he actually went faster for every progressive kilo. Pretty f*****g
amazing. The whole ride is f*****g amazing. Also, Boardman used a larger gear than
conventional pursuiting tradition, thus factoring into his slower acceleration. Pursuiting
is much more about pacing than the kilo is.
By contrast, the other most impressive pursuit I've seen was Ekimov at the 1986 Goodwill
Games. Using only cowhorn handlebars (aerobars hadn't been invented yet), he rode a 4:26
with an opening kilo of 1:07.5 (which would have placed him about 10th in the kilo
competition).
Team pursuiting starts are somewhere in between (unfortuantely I couldn't find individual
lap splits for the Aussie world record effort):
1:04.00 first kilo
57.63
57.68
57.96
4k Pursuit time 3:57
Ilan Vardi
sprint, and I think he even does the start lap.
-ilan
"David Anderson" <djand...@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:<Tkdxb.2750$zu1.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net>...
>
> Consider this:
>
> Bobby Lea
>
> Height: 6'2"
>
> Weight: 175lbs
>
> Born: October 17, 1983
>
> Residence: Topton, PA
>
> Discipline: Track Endurance
>
> Team: Team Fuji Bikes
>
> By no means a big guy other than tall, oh ya one more thing:
>
> National Kilo Champion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "
Carl Sundquist
"Ilan Vardi" <il...@tonyaharding.org> wrote in message
news:6c8faec2.03112...@posting.google.com...
> Laurent Gane, 5' 9", 165 lbs. World champion in the team
> sprint, and I think he even does the start lap.
>
> -ilan
L'Equipe has him at 5'9", 175 lbs.
http://www.lequipe.fr/Jo/JoFicheAthlete14152.html
Steve McGinty
Thank's for the links, Carl.
Hoy is an exceptionally fast starter - he's usually 0.5 up on the
first lap and then "slows" in relation to the other riders. The 2002
championship was a classic when he started 0.4 faster than Tournalt,
then lost just over a tenth each lap to finish a thousandth of a
second up.
The "fastest starter in the world" at the moment, though is Hoy's
fellow Scot, Craig McLean - the lead-off man in the GB team sprint who
regualry goes under 18 secs for the first lap.
Regards!
Stephen
Phil Holman
I think Cipo would therefore do very well in the Team Pursuit.
Phil Holman
warren
Phil Holman <phi...@earthlink.not> wrote:
> I think Cipo would therefore do very well in the Team Pursuit.
He tried one once but 200 meters after he began his first turn at the
front he threw up his arms and stopped pedaling.
-WG
Nick Burns
Carl, what events did you race?
Howard Kveck
"Dave" <dhan...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
That's about what I figured. Having to go only 25% the distance, a kilo
rider can afford to use more energy at the start.
Howard Kveck
"Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
> "Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > What are the differences between kilo opening laps and pursuit opening
> > laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to the
> > distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
>
> There is a big difference. Kilo starts are all about explosive power. An
> individual pursuit start is much more controlled, less frantic.
>
> This link http://www.bcf.uk.com/interviews/2002/10_hoy_chris.html shows shows
> Chris Hoy's
> kilo lap splits as:
> 18.120
> 13.703
> 14.561
> 15.509
> 1:01.893 kilo time
I'd say that the progressively slower laps show how huge the start
effort must be.
>
> Whereas this link http://ida1.physik.uni-siegen.de/menn/pursuitwm.htm to
> Boardman's 4:11 pursuit shows a start lap over 4 seconds slower:
> 22.302
> 15.847
> 15.526
> 15.280
> First kilo 1:08.955
> 4k Pursuit time 4:11
>
> Note that Boardman was still accelerating every lap. If you look at the
> kilometer splits, you'll see that he actually went faster for every
> progressive kilo. Pretty f*****g amazing. The whole ride is f*****g amazing.
> Also, Boardman used a larger gear than conventional pursuiting tradition,
> thus factoring into his slower acceleration. Pursuiting is much more about
> pacing than the kilo is.
From lap 5 on, his lap times have a max variation of only .105, and his
fastest lap was the third from last, with a 15.124. That's incredible
consistency. Collinelli's fastest lap was his fifth, and it goes downhill
from there by almost a whole second a lap. I remember that Boardman almost
caught Collinelli at the line. Didn't he catch every one of his competitors
at the '92 Olympics?
Ilan Vardi
Looks like another Lance type weight question. When he won world's this
year, L'Equipe gave 75kg, which I recalled since data roughly corresponded
to my height and (racing) weight.
-ilan
Tom Kunich
>
> I haven't seen any mass sprint wins by Cipo against other good
> sprinters in the last few years when he did not have a near perfect
> leadout. Yet we see other guys beating him when the leadout is not
> perfect for Cipo. The reason is that they have better acceleration
than
> Cipo.
There are a few guys who have better acceleration than Cipo for sure,
but they also don't have the absolute range of Cipo and when these
guys are there you'll see Cipo going from further out.
A lot of what we see is that Cipo isn't about to get involved in a
mass sprint where there is a lot of bumping and shoving and who could
blame him? Can you name someone that can outsprint Cipo in a straight
sprint? Steels is gone now. Freire is more a very fast sprinter in the
Zabel mode now. Valverde and Petacchi? Didn't Cipo beat Petacchi on
several occasions? There are the Australians as well but they aren't
sprinters like Cipo, they knock each other around in the sprint and
the winner isn't the fastest guy, it's the one that has the most luck
and guts.
> I think Cipo is really good at securing the win after perfect work
by
> his teamates, and there aren't many guys who could do that as well.
Any sprint after 130 miles over hard terrain is a crap shoot and that
is what a team is there for. To suggest that Cipo is some sort of
ordinary sprinter who relies on his team sort of misses the point that
everyone else has a team as well.
Tom Steels at his best could only beat Cipo once in awhile. Petacchi
is surely the equal of a young Cipo and I'd bet you'd use him as an
example of someone that could beat Cipo.
Cipo has been timed several times at above 50 mph in the final sprint
but that was with small slopes and tailwinds. But on perfectly flat
roads and wide finishes he has been timed at 48 mph not once but more
times than you could remember. It used to be his usual finishing
speed. And I think that we would all pretty much agree that 42 mph for
a top notch sprinter is very fast. Those 5 guys in the world that can
stay with Cipo are the cream of the cream.
warren
Kveck <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <vshnmj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
>
> > "Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > What are the differences between kilo opening laps and pursuit opening
> > > laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to the
> > > distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
> >
> > There is a big difference. Kilo starts are all about explosive power. An
> > individual pursuit start is much more controlled, less frantic.
> >
> > This link http://www.bcf.uk.com/interviews/2002/10_hoy_chris.html shows
> > shows
> > Chris Hoy's
> > kilo lap splits as:
> > 18.120
> > 13.703
> > 14.561
> > 15.509
> > 1:01.893 kilo time
>
> I'd say that the progressively slower laps show how huge the start
> effort must be.
Keep in mind that there are other guys who don't start quite as fast
but don't slow much during a winning kilo.
-WG
warren
Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "warren" <war...@usvhremove.com> wrote in message
> news:291120030933410748%war...@usvhremove.com...
> >
> > I haven't seen any mass sprint wins by Cipo against other good
> > sprinters in the last few years when he did not have a near perfect
> > leadout. Yet we see other guys beating him when the leadout is not
> > perfect for Cipo. The reason is that they have better acceleration
> than
> > Cipo.
>
> There are a few guys who have better acceleration than Cipo for sure,
> but they also don't have the absolute range of Cipo and when these
> guys are there you'll see Cipo going from further out.
That's not what I see at the Giro when Cipo wins. The key for Cipo is
that his team drops him off so close to the line (usually less than 200
meters) that there isn't enough distance for someone to pass him.
>
> A lot of what we see is that Cipo isn't about to get involved in a
> mass sprint where there is a lot of bumping and shoving and who could
> blame him? Can you name someone that can outsprint Cipo in a straight
> sprint? Steels is gone now. Freire is more a very fast sprinter in the
> Zabel mode now. Valverde and Petacchi? Didn't Cipo beat Petacchi on
> several occasions?
Pettachi beat Cipo more times this year. Regardless, it's fun to see
another sprinter who's really good, like Cipo used to be.
> There are the Australians as well but they aren't
> sprinters like Cipo, they knock each other around in the sprint and
> the winner isn't the fastest guy, it's the one that has the most luck
> and guts.
The Aussies are very good at coming from two lengths back, which is
another indication that they have a higher top end than Cipo.
> > I think Cipo is really good at securing the win after perfect work
> by
> > his teamates, and there aren't many guys who could do that as well.
>
> Any sprint after 130 miles over hard terrain is a crap shoot and that
> is what a team is there for. To suggest that Cipo is some sort of
> ordinary sprinter who relies on his team sort of misses the point that
> everyone else has a team as well.
The other guys have 0-2 teammates helping them.
>
> Tom Steels at his best could only beat Cipo once in awhile.
A little FYI, Steels retired after getting chronic fatigue syndrome, or
Epstein-Barr, I forget which.
> And I think that we would all pretty much agree that 42 mph for
> a top notch sprinter is very fast. Those 5 guys in the world that can
> stay with Cipo are the cream of the cream.
I like watching his team at work, but I think Cipo gets a bit too much
of the credit.
-WG
Alan E
I thought Mike Beers won this year's kilo title. But I saw Bobby Lea on the
cover of B.M. and it also said he had the title. What gives?
David Anderson <djand...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Tkdxb.2750$zu1.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> Because by being a road racer, he probably can't bench his body weight or
> Romanian
> deadlift 2x his body weight. Therefore he can't get off the start line
> quickly enough to
> be a top kilo rider.
Alan E
Alan E
I thought that Mike Beers was this year kilo champ. But then I saw Bobby's
picture on B.M. an it also said he held the title. What gives?
David Anderson <djand...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Tkdxb.2750$zu1.1...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
>
> Consider this:
>
> Bobby Lea
Carl Sundquist
> but don't slow much during a winning kilo.
>
Like me. I rode my PB with the last lap the fastest one.
Carl Sundquist
"Nick Burns" <chrismc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> Carl, what events did you race?
At what level of competition?
Nick Burns
>
> "Nick Burns" <chrismc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Carl, what events did you race?
>
> At what level of competition?
I thought I remembered you on the US national team pursuit. Did you do
anything else on the track for the US team?
Phil Holman
"Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> In article <vshnmj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
>
> > "Howard Kveck" <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > What are the differences between kilo opening laps and pursuit
opening
> > > laps? Does the rider hold a little in reserve for pursuit, due to
the
> > > distance (granted it isn't much, in total), compared to the kilo?
> >
> > There is a big difference. Kilo starts are all about explosive
power. An
> > individual pursuit start is much more controlled, less frantic.
> >
> > This link http://www.bcf.uk.com/interviews/2002/10_hoy_chris.html
shows shows
> > Chris Hoy's
> > kilo lap splits as:
> > 18.120
> > 13.703
> > 14.561
> > 15.509
> > 1:01.893 kilo time
>
> I'd say that the progressively slower laps show how huge the start
> effort must be.
Lets crank some numbers and compare. Assume 90kg bike + rider and a 4.4
second start, and a power requirement of 560 watts for 14.6 m/s
compliments of Tom Compton via Analytic Cyling.
First lap Energy = 1/2mv^2(KE) + Average Aero Force*Distance =
(1/2*90*14.6^2) + (12.8*200) = 9592 + 2560 = 12152 Joules. First lap
Average Power = 670 watts.
Second lap Energy = Aero Force*Distance = 38.4*200 = 7680 Joules. Second
lap Average Power = 560 watts
Phil Holman
Dave
"Alan E" <alane...@email.com> wrote in message
news:iMsyb.38657$A%3.51...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
> Dave,
>
> I thought Mike Beers won this year's kilo title. But I saw Bobby Lea on the
> cover of B.M. and it also said he had the title. What gives?
Mike Beers, 2002 Nat kilo champ 1:07.453
Dave
Carl Sundquist
"Nick Burns" <chrismc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > > Carl, what events did you race?
> >
> > At what level of competition?
>
> I thought I remembered you on the US national team pursuit. Did you do
> anything else on the track for the US team?
>
>
Ranging in competitions from worlds to world cups to the Goodwill Games to invitational
races: individual pursuit, team pursuit, points race, madison, scratch races, handicap
races, keirins, etc. Pretty much anything on the track aside from sprints and the kilo. I
only did the kilo at national level events and sprints at the local level.
warren
<car...@cox-internet.com> wrote:
Who was on your TP teams? Nitz?
-WG
Amit
> There are the Australians as well but they aren't
> sprinters like Cipo,
McEwen, Cooke, you're right they're not like Cipo, they won the green jersey.
Dave
Dave
Lemme try this one, Carl, Dirk Copeland, Mariano Fredick and Christian Vandevelde? for Silver in
1994?
Dave
Tom Kunich
Mr. 240 Watts
"Phil Holman" <phi...@earthlink.not> wrote in message
news:XOuyb.20700$n56....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Tom Kunich
news:df5bdaa0.03113...@posting.google.com...
But they can't stand on the same road as Cipo or Petacchi on flat road
sprinting. That's not something that is surprising is it? I don't see
it as a negative for the Aussies who have their own talents. I'm just
saying that they must race on narrow roads at homes since they seem
more interested in mixing it up than sprinting really fast.
Mike Gladu
<dhan...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
> > Who was on your TP teams? Nitz?
> >
> > -WG
>
> Lemme try this one, Carl, Dirk Copeland, Mariano Fredick and Christian
Vandevelde? for Silver in
> 1994?
>
> Dave
1996 Natz Gold - EDS/National Team: Carl Sundquist, Dirk Copeland, Matt
Hamon, Adam Laurent, Christian VandeVelde
IIRC, he might have been the unused fifth EDS rider in 1998 at Frisco too
(Carlson's only Natz Gold) ...
Mike G.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gladu - Cycling Photojournalist & webmaster of "the 'drome"
Email: mikeatvelodromedotcom Online: http://www.velodrome.com/
================================================================
Gerard Lanois
> Lemme try this one, Carl, Dirk Copeland, Mariano Fredick and Christian Vandevelde? for Silver in
> 1994?
I think you might thinking of 1984 (US won silver 4k team pursuit) -
GRYLLS, David Mills
HEGG, Stephen Edward
MCDONOUGH, R.Patrick
NITZ, Leonard Harvey
As far as I can tell (using the olympic.org database), this is the
only medal the US has ever earned in a men's _team_ track event.
Despite a rich and storied career as a national and international
level cyclist (and esteemed rbr commentator), Mr. Sundquist has never
won an Olympic medal. But he does have his birthday listed on that
web site of famous people in history.
-Gerard
Secretary, Carl Sundquist Fan Club
Kurgan Gringioni
>
> The other guys have 0-2 teammates helping them.
> >
> > Tom Steels at his best could only beat Cipo once in awhile.
>
> A little FYI, Steels retired after getting chronic fatigue syndrome, or
> Epstein-Barr, I forget which.
<snip>
Dumbass -
There's also the issue of his birth-defected kid.
Grapevine says his wife threatened to leave him if unless he started riding
clean, he did, then he sucked, then he retired.
'tis only the grapevine, take it for what it's worth.
Carl Sundquist
"Dave" <dhan...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Who was on your TP teams? Nitz?
> >
> > -WG
>
>
> Lemme try this one, Carl, Dirk Copeland, Mariano Fredick and Christian Vandevelde? for
Silver in
> 1994?
>
As best I can recall, starting in 1985, ending in 1996 (not including US nationals):
Harvey Nitz
Steve Hegg (40th birthday on Wednesday)
David Brinton
Dave Lettieri
Mike McCarthy
Tim Hinz
John Beckman
Pat McDonough
Jim Pollak
Kevin Peck
Ron Storer
Dirk Copeland
Adam Laurent
Mariano Friedick
Matt Hamon
Christian VandeVelde
Zach Conrad
1994 team pursuit silver was Copeland, Hamon, Laurent, Conrad, Friedick, and me.
Bob Schwartz
> As far as I can tell (using the olympic.org database), this is the
> only medal the US has ever earned in a men's _team_ track event.
Medalists:
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cvccbikers/uscf/olympic-track-medals.html
Team Composition and results:
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cvccbikers/uscf/olympic-teams-us.html
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
A pop-up killer is recommended.
Tom Kunich
"Carl Sundquist" <car...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message
news:vsmgqt1...@corp.supernews.com...
Ronaldo Jeremiah
Which of these guys was best at staying in synch with the rest of the
team?
OK, seriously:
What gear ratio(s) did you guys ride at the World's? Might you be
willing to just give us an account of that meet from qualifying to
final (or if you've done that already, post the link to it)?
How do you think you'd have matched up to Cipo in an individual
pursuit when you were at the top of your game? How would you have
matched up in a kilo?
-RJ
Anton Quist
country. You also need to qualify one of the (very limited) spots
available in the event at the Olympics. Somebody Italian would have to
be out at the Track World Cups and Track World Championships in 2004
scoring top 10s to get that spot. GB, for example has the enviable
position of having several riders capable of medalling at these
events, then being able to put a Bradley Wiggins (and/or possibly a
David Millar?), or whoever is on form, into the really big pursuit
events.
BTW, Cipo wouldn't stand a chance in kilo. He'd be blown away on the
start by at least two seconds, and might not even be at full speed
until almost half way into the race. The way to win a world class kilo
is to start extremely fast, a lot faster than a pro roadie can
achieve, even though it means you WILL slow a bit in the last lap.
Essentially (Tournant-Hoy 2002 aside, and the difference was only
0.001 anyway), the kilo is won in the first 500m.
Anton
Benjamin Weiner <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message news:<3fc7eb99@darkstar>...
> This is a good point. You guys are all talking doubtfully about whether
> Cipo could qualify for the kilo or pursuit, and comparing his likely
> times to the best riders in the world. Okay, so Cipo hasn't been beating
> McGee in Tour prologues, either. But quick, name the top Italian track
> specialists in kilo or pursuit and their times. I don't know if it's that
> deep a field.
Kurgan Gringioni
"Anton Quist" <anton...@starpower.net> wrote in message
news:8f54e882.0312...@posting.google.com...
>
> BTW, Cipo wouldn't stand a chance in kilo. He'd be blown away on the
> start by at least two seconds, and might not even be at full speed
> until almost half way into the race.
<snip>
Dumbass -
How do you know?
A teamate of mine, who was a roadie, had the fastest first half lap at US
Nationals. He was thin by track standards. He didn't win because he couldn't
finish it and he was a true roadie too - won State Crit, 3rd in State RR.
I'm not saying that Cipo has a good first half lap, but you can't tell where
someone's weaknesses are going to be until they actually go out to the track
and give it a try.
DESAY
>Nationals. He was thin by track standards. He didn't win because he couldn't
>finish it and he was a true roadie too - won State Crit, 3rd in State RR.
Maybe this rider has kilo potential. I thought that Lothar Thoms started out
as a road rider and coaches soon realized his potential for riding the kilo (4
world championships and Olympic title).
Looking at championship results at worlds there seems to be a high correlation
between starting strength (1/2 & 1 lap splits) and finishing results, although
this relationship has lessened with the advent of the tri bars being used for
kilo events (post 1991). It seemed that many of the top kilo riders from the
80s and earlier seemed to power through the first 500meters and hold on for the
second 500meters. Kirichenko and Kopylov come to mind, both high 22 second
first lap splits (333 meter tracks).
Also, one of the "bravest" kilos was Pierre Trentin who in the 1968 Olympics
let loose and finished with a 1.03 and passed out after crossing the line and
crashed into the infield.
Carl Sundquist
"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> What gear ratio(s) did you guys ride at the World's? Might you be
> willing to just give us an account of that meet from qualifying to
> final (or if you've done that already, post the link to it)?
Gear ratio was either 51x15 or 52x15. The Palermo, Sicily track wasn't particularly fast.
Winning times were in the mid-teens (4:14-4:15). I've not posted an account of the race in
the past. Give me a few days to recall details, and I'll tap something out.
>
> How do you think you'd have matched up to Cipo in an individual
> pursuit when you were at the top of your game?
1994 was clearly the top of my game. As this thread shows, trying to figure out how good
Cipo might have been at a pursuit would be a wild guess at best.
> How would you have matched up in a kilo?
I have no illusions. He would have beaten me.
Anton Quist
being a dumbass). But I will put money on my Cipo claim. Of course I
don't know for sure, but it's an experienced observation based on the
way he rides (compared to a more jumpy sprinter). And of course it's
probably just talk anyway, so my $$$ are safe regardless.
Anton
"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni.rem...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a88zb.8019$zL1.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net>...
Ronaldo Jeremiah
> BTW, Cipo wouldn't stand a chance in kilo. He'd be blown away on the
> start by at least two seconds, and might not even be at full speed
> until almost half way into the race. The way to win a world class kilo
> is to start extremely fast, a lot faster than a pro roadie can
> achieve, even though it means you WILL slow a bit in the last lap.
> Essentially (Tournant-Hoy 2002 aside, and the difference was only
> 0.001 anyway), the kilo is won in the first 500m.
>
> Anton
Anton, I've raced with you (but not in a while) and know your
experience with racing the kilo, so I respect your opinion, but I
think you exaggerate here. Yes, I agree that the start might be a
liability for Cipo, but he's not going to lose two whole seconds
there, nor is he going to need 500 meters to get up to top speed. He
may not be a 'jumpy' sprinter in comparison to other world class road
sprinters, but come on - the guy is powerful and fast, among the best.
He's not going to get completely smoked.
Regarding the second half of that paragraph, I'll agree that a good
start is key, but how can you say the kilo is won in the first half?
A good start is worthless without a good finish (and I know this from
personal experience - I can ride a great 500m, but not a great kilo,
myself). A decent or good start combined with a great finish is also
a recipe for success, wouldn't you say? Further, isn't it possible
that a measured effort in the start would increase the likelihood of a
big finish?
In trying to ride your own best kilo, just how do you gauge your start
so that it is fast, without having it be such an effort that it leaves
you blown for the last few hundred meters?
-RJ
Tuschinski
`The good thing for Cipo will be his huge stamina advantage over the
pure-track people. I assume he will be struggling with his
suppleness, so he will be using heavier gear than the specialists
(common for road racers going track). This almost certainly
disqualifies him for top kilo.
There will be a fair bit of luck (fitness of the day) involved, but I
wouldn't be surprised if he came a long way with the IP. Then again, I
wouldn't be surprised either if he bombed first match.. :)
All is just guessing by a silly amateur of course, but I assume that the
worse the conditions the better Cipo will do (I have some faith in the
durability of a profesional road-racer). A super fast track will be
ideal for the high-rpm specialists.
But it's probably all talk. I doubt he will risk to become laughing
stock (as certainly would happen if he fails).
--