Thrown out of an FBO...
Jay Honeck
leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
FBO.
To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
It all started pleasantly enough, with a brunch flight to a small town
airport in North Central Iowa. The weather today was absolutely
gorgeous, with temperatures in the 70s and smooth, calm air above a low
haze layer. We called ahead to make sure the FBO had a courtesy car
available, and within an hour we were on the ramp chatting with the
line guy.
Sadly, our favorite restaurant (we visit this little town a couple of
times per year) had gone belly up after over 100 years of continuous
operation, so we asked the FBO owner if he had any recommendations. A
large man, our conversation made it clear that he had enjoyed the
culinary delights from most (if not all) of the restaurants in his
small town, and we made mental note of the ones he most recommended.
He then jovially sent us on our merry way.
After finding the recommended locally-owned greasy spoon restaurant
(always our target!), we were soon enjoying a tasty, affordable lunch
accompanied by rapid-fire repartee' from our blue-haired veteran
waitress. We had a great time with her caustic, slightly off-color
humor, and finished off with two pieces of her home-made coconut cream
pie. We were soon waddling our way back to the courtesy van.
As always, we made a bee-line for the nearest gas station, and topped
off the tank. In my opinion, folks who use courtesy cars and don't add
a little gas are abusing a very nice system, and we always want to do
our part to make sure that the traditional "airport car" lives on.
Minutes later we were back inside the FBO, fat, dumb, and looking
forward to another great flight home.
Walking through the lobby area, I called out to the owner (who was
sitting at his desk behind the counter) and thanked him for a wonderful
recommendation. He stood up and walked over to the counter to bid us
farewell, we chatted about the restaurant we had visited, and I
mentioned to him that we had "topped off the tank" for him in his van.
He replied that we "Didn't have to do that...", but Mary remarked that
we ALWAYS tried to fill the tanks, in thanks for the use of their car.
I then mentioned that we, too, had a courtesy van at our hotel in Iowa
City, and that I hadn't had to fill the tank in three years, thanks to
the generosity of our pilot guests.
He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..." he
growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
My surprise quickly passed, though, and I was well on my way from
flustered to incredulous, bordering on the angry. I just stared at him
in disbelief, but Mary quickly filled the gap, stating in her best "Mom
voice" that "Avoiding this place shouldn't be too hard." He asked me
if the keys were in the van, to which I replied in the affirmative. He
then turned on his heel and walked away, leaving us shaking our heads.
Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
-- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
edge.
We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
visit, so it won't matter much.
But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Capt.Doug
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there)
He has 6 charter pilots who make good wages. What does he need you for? He's
been a charter pilot for a long time. Must have a good business going. Can't
do that if he was tilting off the deck frequently for little reason. Must be
something wrong with you. :-)
Reminds me of the time I was turning final overhead of a trailer park in
bumf**k, Alabama. At the FBO counter, my boss asked if I wanted a rental
car, and I blurted out "seen one trailer park, seen 'em all". He and I
cracked huge grins, but the fellow behind the counter was embarrassed, as
was the boss's wife. Oh well- life goes on.
D.
Peter R.
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
That's your conscience talking to you, Jay.
I have been in a similar situation twice. Both times I was the paying
customer and the other party was the small business person collecting money
from me.
The first time the bed and breakfast owner clearly overreacted to what was
a trivial issue and overstepped the line by tersely telling me that my
business was not welcome anymore. The second time a manager of a speedy
oil change shop, in response to my words, did the same. These two
incidents were separated by several years.
In the first incident with the B&B, I wrote a very strong letter after
returning home expressing the fact that I had wanted to make his B&B a
yearly tradition with my wife and me, but his overreaction had made me
think otherwise. However, I did apologize for my actions that caused the
outburst and ended the letter with the hope that he would write back to
make amends, too. He never did.
In the second incident, I returned to the oil change shop an hour after
storming off, parked my car, and walked up to the manager. The first words
out of my mouth were, "I am very sorry for overreacting and I feel really
bad for the way I acted. There is no excuse for my behavior."
He accepted my apology, extended a hand, and offered me a free oil change.
I politely declined, since I didn't want to take something I didn't
deserve.
In both cases, I felt I did what I could to correct the bad feelings. In
your situation, I recommend making a phone call to the FBO owner after
things cool down a bit. Offer your sincerest apology for what you
hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark and let him know how
bad you felt on the return trip.
Whether or not you ever return to the FBO is irrelevant; at least you made
an attempt to rectify the bad feelings from that experience. The attempt
might do your conscience good.
--
Peter
Jose
> at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
He's right. It's a nasty overgeneralization. Like in flying, usually
mistakes don't bite, but this one happened to hit the mark.
Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
nrp
work for him or charter from him if that's the sensitivity to a minor
comment. Some people and attitudes shouldn't be in aviation.
gpsman
>
> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often than
> that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only time the tanks
> don't get filled at our place is when charter pilots use our van --
> those guys are the cheapest SOBs around!"
>
> His face suddenly flushed red, and his tone abruptly changed. "Well,
> I'm a charter pilot, and I believe you're insulting me, now..."
Ouch!
> he
> growled in a quiet but somehow menacing voice. Still laughing, not
> sure if he was joking, too, but somewhat alarmed at his sudden change
> of tone, I replied in a conspiratorial way "Well, we all know *why*
> they don't fill the tanks -- they're not making diddly squat, and those
> kids can't afford to shell out too much cash..."
>
> This placated him not at all. He went on to tell me how he's got "Six
> charter pilots working for him, and they all make a good wage, and you
> shouldn't be making blanket statements insulting 'em that way..."
Ouch!
> Just like *that* the atmosphere in the office changed, and I was
> starting to get flustered at his sudden change of personality. Mary
> piped up and said that this was all "Just our observation of the way
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
>
>
> I was dumb-founded -- he was kicking us out, and asking us not to come
> back! Mary (for the first time in a very long time) was speechless. I
> simply didn't know how to handle a situation that had gone from
> friendly to adversarial in the span of three sentences.
Take it from an expert, you should've just apologized at the first ouch
and changed the subject to politics or religion.
It it were me, and I valued this relationship, I would find out one of
his favorite things, be it beer or cigars or White Castles and fly back
in at my earliest opportunity with a gift of same and a contrite
demeanor in tow.
You are obviously nice and conscientious visiting pilots, surely a
small gesture will overcome this slight misunderstanding.
-----
- gpsman
bitsy...@gmail.com
...
> some charter pilots behaved...", and I replied that I was "Just joking
> around..." -- to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
Perhaps you missed that big election in some part of the world
yesterday, could well be the cause of his mood - I think I can guess
his political allegience, it's not a happy one ;-)
Peter Duniho
news:1163040852.1...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> [...]
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
Sorry, Jay. I would agree that his response was probably over the top, but
then it's hard to predict how a person will react when you insult them.
That reaction depends on a variety of factors, including something as simple
as how their day had been going so far.
You have no way of knowing in advance what those factors are, nor what the
reaction will be. It's why you ought to be careful in the first place about
throwing broad generalizations like that around. Yet, you managed TWO in a
single conversation (as if you could fix the first with another).
I've seen you post generalizations like that here in the past. Some times I
call you on it (to no avail), but most of the time I just ignore it (since
mentioning it does no good anyway). Maybe this experience will help you
rethink a little whether it's appropriate to stereotype people in the way
that you do. Just because most people would have handled your comments more
calmly, that doesn't mean your comments were appropriate.
And yes, I realize I'm probably just spittin' in the wind here...you
probably don't see any harm whatsoever in your comments, seeing how *your*
reaction to his was one of anger, rather than the embarassment that would
have been more appropriate. But you know me...I'm always willing to share
my two cents. :)
Pete
Larry Dighera
wrote in <tuxxsf3...@ID-259643.user.individual.net>:
> Offer your sincerest apology for what you
>hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark
That would require insight and contrition. Doubtful.
Jon Kraus
NEVER say anything that could be construed as offensive, not matter how
you feel about a topic. :-)
You can choose to be bothered by this guy or not... That is up to you.
For myself I sure wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Let a few weeks go by
and then go back and see if he remembers you. He could have been just
having a bad day. Just my .02
Jon
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
As a former charter pilot, I didn't find your comments insulting or untrue.
Maybe that guy spread the cash around, but I can guarantee my employer didn't.
As for his thin skin, forget him. The world is a big place. Every town has a
greasy spoon you can visit. Life is too short to feel bad just because someone
decides to take offense at what was meant to be a joke.
That guy needs to go back to flying boxes in the middle of the night. He has no
aptitude for meeting the public.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
Viperdoc
My personal observations are that you and Mary are some of the most genteel,
warm, and non-threatening people that I have ever met or spoken with. It is
not your fault that some bone head old fart is hypersensitive, and you
should not take it personally. He is the one with the problem, not you.
Of course, it is upsetting, and ruins your day, but you took the higher
moral road and did nothing wrong. He is the one who should feel bad for
having hurt and insulted a potential customer. It was rude on his part.
Flying is a hobby that most of us do for enjoyment- I tell people that if I
need to get stressed over something I can always go back to work rather than
stay at the airport.
On the other hand, maybe you should go back to the FBO in central Iowa that
had the beautiful woman behind the counter- what was the identifier again?
Good luck. Still checking on the date for the MKE airshow.
Jay Honeck
> call you on it (to no avail), but most of the time I just ignore it (since
> mentioning it does no good anyway). Maybe this experience will help you
> rethink a little whether it's appropriate to stereotype people in the way
> that you do. Just because most people would have handled your comments more
> calmly, that doesn't mean your comments were appropriate.
True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who
provide courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
borrow our cars.
You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
We have shared this experience with FBO owners in dozens of locations
across America, and it has always brought a knowing laugh and nods of
agreement. Every FBO owner in the country knows that most charter
pilots are going to return their car with the gas gauge sitting on
"empty" -- it's just something we all live with.
My mistake was in believing that I was sharing an inside joke with an
FBO owner and fellow courtesy car provider. At least yesterday, this
guy was a charter pilot first, and an FBO owner as an afterthought --
and he took the joke personally.
At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
courtesy car whenever they use it.
Jay Honeck
> warm, and non-threatening people that I have ever met or spoken with. It is
> not your fault that some bone head old fart is hypersensitive, and you
> should not take it personally. He is the one with the problem, not you.
Thanks. I needed that!
> On the other hand, maybe you should go back to the FBO in central Iowa that
> had the beautiful woman behind the counter- what was the identifier again?
Centerville, IA. I've got her card on my monitor -- Kathy Bratz is the
FBO owner's name. What a wonderful FBO, in a very similar town.
(And, incidentally, we both commiserated over our "charter pilots
versus courtesy car" woes, and shared a laugh together over it.)
> Good luck. Still checking on the date for the MKE airshow.
We're looking forward to it!
Stubby
preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks. I'm sorry you got
hit, but you did have a good day for the most part.
Larry Dighera
<William.Plu...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
<Lq-dnWMj8IRxp87Y...@comcast.com>:
>Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
>preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks.
"To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
-- Elbert Hubbard
benf...@aol.com
cut offs and this guy wasn't Steven P McNicolls???
Ross Richardson
Jay, I agree with the above also. You never really know what was going
on with him that day.
--
Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI
The Visitor
But the shoe fits. He just wanted to shoot the messenger.
Sure there are exceptions but generally you are right. Many will not tip
while away. They add up all the money spent tipping and a year and say
to themselves, "Hey, it's better in my pocket than theirs." It is purely
a business decision. I have been exposed to them. As for the car, I
think things have gotten better now, I wouldn't know. But you do because
you are there on the front lines every day. The thinking was they are
buying enough fuel, or will on a subsequent trip. It's just part of the
workday routine, like saving paperclips in an office. ??
Forget him. If he is really a charter pilot, what is he doing on the
ground? He should apologize to you and your wife. He obviously is used
to having a hair spring temper and getting away with it. Is his fbo the
only one there? Or can you park at a terminal area? Fueling area?
I even tip the cabbies when I was away.
John
Doug
work out the way they were intended and sorry to offend and no offense
taken. If the guy wont be ok with that, then there isnt anything else
you can do.
Jim Burns
conversation that you and Mary provide at the Inn is very hard to come by.
Even if you hadn't planned on buying fuel (for Atlas), I would have gave him
a happy "No problem, thanks for letting us use the van, we'll tell all our
friends that you don't expect them to fill it with gas and by the way, let
your fuel guy know that we cancelled our fuel request." Then simply left,
letting him wonder how much you might have purchased.
The charter pilots that rub me raw are the ones that act like little tin
gods pretending that "they" have the sole decision making ability whether to
fly into a particular airport and or refuel at that airport. Most that I've
watched have had to call in and report the fuel price to someone who
actually gives them the approval. I doubt if that person gives a crap
whether the FBO has a courtesy car, a vending machine, or a bush to piss
behind, but the pilots put on an air that the FBO owes them special courtesy
because their company "might" buy some fuel. In my mind, these pilots earn
less of an FBO's appreciation than GA pilots. GA pilots usually have the
decision making ability and can choose to take their business elsewhere. I
understand that in cities or areas with multiple airports or at airports
with multiple FBO's, this might not be the case.
Another observation that I've made is that the most arrogant attitudes seem
to be expressed by the younger charter pilots. I've seen some older charter
pilots literally bend over backwards for their customers, play chauffer with
the rental car for them, offer extra food, soda, and even beer to the local
airport bumbs, even offer tours of their front offices. I've never seen any
of these actions exhibited by the young guns. Again, this is just my
observation and I'm sure it isn't the case everywhere.
Jim
Bob Fry
JH> He laughed and said that he "Had to fill the tank more often
JH> than that!", to which I laughingly replied "Yeah, the only
JH> time the tanks don't get filled at our place is when hotel
JH> owners use our van -- those guys are the cheapest SOBs
JH> around!"
I changed two words in the "quote" above. How does it feel?
Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
considerable restraint.
--
A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying
anything real on real issues.
Theodore Roosevelt
Steve Foley
news:ejsc4p...@mailinator.com...
> Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
> sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
> charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
> life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
> considerable restraint.
I wonder if he turned down a charter because he had a 'customer' who had
called ahead to make sure there was a courtesy car available?
Did the 'customer' buy anything, or was he just 'borrowing the car'?
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> I changed two words in the "quote" above. How does it feel?
>
> Others have already said it better than I. I'll just add that it
> sounds like the guy is both a charter pilot and runs a business of
> charter pilots, and you accidently insulted his entire professional
> life. What to you was an overreaction to him might have been
> considerable restraint.
How politically correct of you to say so.
Gene Seibel
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
Exactly what "business" did he drive off? Did you buy any avgas?
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.
Peter Duniho
> True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
> them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
> with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
> charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
> don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who
> provide courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
> borrow our cars.
>
> You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
Yeah, I didn't think you'd actually get the point.
Last clue: "common knowledge" often has no bearing whatsoever on the truth,
and in your case is being used simply as an excuse to stereotype. Even if
in your experience, things are as you state (and frankly, even knowing who
is and who is not a charter pilot is not always easy to tell, and as far as
salaries go, unless you're asking everyone for financials as they come
through, you have NO way to know that), that does not justify painting all
charter pilots with the same brush.
I admit that the question of charter pilot behavior is not so socially
important as the question of race relations, but your way of thinking about
the former is exactly the same sort of thinking that causes problems in the
latter. The consequences of your prejudiced thinking may not be as serious,
but it's exactly the same mindset. It's not appropriate in any context.
Pete
karl gruber
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
Well, he was just a crude redneck, you're lucky he didn't carry!
You were sarcastic, crass, and just like flying IFR, don't have a clue about
"charter pilots."
Karl
Ex chief pilot Part 135, 16 years. And yes, we always bought fuel for the
crew car. We also bought 550,000 gallons of jet fuel just on the road. We
also ALWAYS bought jet fuel at every stop whether we needed it or not
(courtesy fuel)
Newps
> On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 23:12:29 -0500, "Peter R." <pjr...@gmailX.com>
> wrote in <tuxxsf3...@ID-259643.user.individual.net>:
>
>
>>Offer your sincerest apology for what you
>>hopefully realize was a thoughtless and crass remark
But it was true.
The Visitor
Jay Honeck wrote:
"in his small town,"
Well then you were thrown out of more than an FBO.
I think you can brag about it now. : )
(Ha, I just had a funny thought. FBO could stand for something else.
Remember Austin Powers Scottish nemisis..... F B's Operation.)
Jose
"Every time I've had a problem with my employees, it's always been an
nigger" could also be true, in one's experience, but to say so would
still be a thoughtless and crass remark, especially to somebody who, it
turns out, is married to one.
Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Mxsmanic
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
Your comments may have been too close to reality; or similar rumors
might have had a direct and negative effect on his business or
reputation in the past (in contexts where it was not clear that they
were jokes or mere rumors). Still, it seems like an extreme reaction.
Often people who react in this way to one thing will react in the same
way to many others; it's more of a personality characteristic than a
unique behavior linked to a specific, one-of-a-kind trigger.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Steve Foley
> You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
Stubby
Al G
questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
of it.
Al G
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:1163040852.1...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Decades ago, in my younger days (okay, waaaay younger), I was asked to
> leave a drinking establishment or two, and I've had a few women show me
> the door, over time...but I never thought I'd ever be asked to leave an
> FBO.
>
> To our amazement, it happened to Mary and me today.
>
> Our day ruined, it was a quiet flight home, as we pondered what could
> make a guy snap like that over such inconsequential banter. The only
> thing we could think of us was that he was having a very, very bad day
> -- perhaps something had gone wrong with one of his charter pilots, or
> a charter job had fallen through? -- and our jokes tipped him over the
> edge.
>
> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
> visit, so it won't matter much.
>
B A R R Y
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>
If it's the same as mine, Jay's place is in rare company. <G>
Newps
and if the statement is true then it's true.
Bill Watson
Bill Watson
I've not been allowed in a few too. A bit sensitive I guess.
Jay, you did unknowingly insult the guy and his profession. It should
have rolled off his back but here is a presumably hard working guy being
insulted for what he may have spent the better part of his life doing.
What is the courtesy car calculus at an FBO? I've always assumed that
the working charter guys in aggregate bring a certain amount of business
thru in the form of fuel, tiedown, maintenance, whatever. The courtesy
cars are there in exchange for the business and in recognition of
aviation's toughest challenge - getting from flying machine to MickyDs.
Gas is part of the exchange.
On the other hand, weekend 100$ burger shoppers often bring zero$ but
benefit from courtesy cars just the same. I fill 'em up too but most of
them have disappeared from around here. Gas is part of the exchange it
just goes the other way.
Am I missing something here?
Mauledriver
If I said what I believe to be true and an easily observed fact, I'd be
worn out from kicking so much ass... or getting mine kicked.
Grumman-581
news:_JJ4h.11613$B31....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> "Every time I've had a problem with my employees, it's always been an
> nigger" could also be true, in one's experience, but to say so would
> still be a thoughtless and crass remark, especially to somebody who, it
> turns out, is married to one.
So, you should use "a" instead of "an"? Damn, this PC shit is
complicated...
Grumman-581
news:ZRJ4h.9429$sw6.3725@trndny08...
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs
chains?
Awh, 'ell... I always figured that Honeck was a funny name for an Indian or
Pakistani...
Andrew Sarangan
he did not agree with. People get kicked out from establishments for
all kinds of reasons, due to political, health and religious choices
and some even go as far as racial discrimination. Although I can
understand your feelings, you should be glad that you have only
encountered this once in your life. Just last month my wife got kicked
out of a social club because of her choice not to get vaccinated. There
was no logic or reason behind this, what it boils down to is
intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
us' or 'against us'.
Peter Duniho
news:1163100982....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
> he did not agree with.
Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
> [...] what it boils down to is
> intolerance towards different choices, and looking at everyone as 'with
> us' or 'against us'.
This isn't about a "different choice". If I "choose", in a way different
from other people, to call you an asshole, or I tell you that every person
named "Andrew" that I've ever met was an idiot, and you react negatively
toward that, is it because you are "displaying an overt intolerance"? No,
it wouldn't be. It would be because *I* would be displaying an overt
prejudice. But you seem to think that I have every right to not only
believe something like that, but to tell it to your face, and expect you to
NOT react negatively.
Absurd.
I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
"genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.
Jay is one of them (and this isn't the first time we've seen him proving
it).
Pete
Sam
had to learn that lesson.
Sam
Phil
We have heard one side of this story. Jay Honeck may be the most
credible person in the world, but the FBO guy may also have a side to
this event.
Just because you like Honeck, and hate FBO's like he seems to, doesn't
mean Honeck is pearly white and above reproach here.
Phil
The Visitor
Steve Foley wrote:
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>
>
Even if you did speak up, he would not eject you from his hotel. In
fact, I suspect, you would probably still be welcome. Telling him to
leave and not come back was disporportionat and extreme. Waaaay over the
top. They fbo guy showed his real character.
John
The Visitor
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Just last month my wife got kicked
> out of a social club because of her choice not to get vaccinated.
Won't they feel stupid when they eventually find out it was because last
time she had such a severe reaction. At least that is why many people
here give it a pass.
John
Andrew Sarangan
What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
others. Some of these opinions could be wrong (and all of us are wrong
one time or another), but if the other person reacts violently, then
the person offering his opinion is only going to widthraw and harden
his beliefs. Dialog and respect to other's opinion is the only way to
overcome misinformation and improve understanding. If we start throwing
people out or getting upset at the first sign of disagreement, we will
never find a solution to our problems.
Based on Jay's description, he made a comment which he thought was
funny. He may have been insensitive, but I don't think he walked up to
that guy with the intention of insulting him. The right thing for the
FBO guy to do would be respond to Jay with common courtersy and
straighten his misconceptions about corporate pilots. 'Throwing him
out' only serves to harden the negative view Jay may have about
corporate pilots. It does nothing to improve relations.
Andrew Sarangan
What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
NVArt
would have me for a member".
Newps
Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Andrew Sarangan" <asar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1163100982....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>This person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards a comment
>>he did not agree with.
>
>
> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
He couldn't know it to be false. He was a sample of one.
Newps
Peter Duniho wrote:
being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
The truth is not prejudiced.
gatt
> True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
> them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
> with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
> charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
> don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who provide
> courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
> borrow our cars.
In other words, you made a joke as a customer to a peer based on your own
experience. He reacted negatively, you tried to make the best of it, he
called you a name (literally...the "Kerry" thing.) Unfortunately, I've
known a couple of belligerent pinheads like that. They have anger management
and security issues and, even when slightly offended they perceive that the
manly thing to do is throw their weight around and verbally abuse people.
Damned if I'd want a mentality like that in -my- cockpit. I knew an FBO
owner in Baton Rouge who was similarly incapable of civil discourse at even
the slightest disagreement.
Sure, maybe you offended him. You didn't mean it. You tried to dilute the
moment and he chose to storm off in a huff even after you paid him the
monetary favor of filling his tank. It's not your problem.
-c
Al G
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kKOdnVwTqN2xuc7Y...@giganews.com...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> We'll never know -- and we'll never be back. It's a shame -- with all
>> the problems facing GA, small-town airports simply can't afford to have
>> FBOs driving off what little business they have (we were the only plane
>> there) -- but for us there are literally hundreds of other airports to
>> visit, so it won't matter much.
>>
>> But this day will always bother me, nonetheless.
>
>
> untrue. Maybe that guy spread the cash around, but I can guarantee my
> employer didn't.
>
I have to agree. I too flew 135 for years, and quite frankly
couldn't afford lunch, let alone gas. I didn't find your comments insulting
or untrue. Your comment was simply an expression of your experience. You
were not making general statements about charter pilots everywhere, just at
your hotel. If he was really offended, maybe the shoe fit?
Al G
mike regish
Stereotyping people with little or nothing to go on is something I've seen
before from you. You never really know just who you might be talking to. I'd
say you stepped on it.
mike
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>
> At this point the best thing that might happen is that he sits down
> with his pilots, and drills into them that they should ALWAYS fill the
> courtesy car whenever they use it.
mike regish
Park-in".
mike
"Peter Duniho" <NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote in message
news:12l71qo...@corp.supernews.com...
mike regish
of those guys' opinions without getting pissed. But, hey...that's just me.
mike
"Andrew Sarangan" <asar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
Matt Whiting
> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
> and if the statement is true then it's true.
The point is that Jay hasn't seen every charter pilot out there. He's
seen a small sample, and possibly an unusually unrepresentative sample,
who nows? Making a sweeping generalization based on a small sample
isn't usually a good idea.
Matt
Matt Whiting
> "Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:1163077120.5...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>You can call it a "stereotype" if you wish. I call it "experience."
>
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
>
>
Ha, ha, ha ... I was thinking the same thing... :-)
Matt
Matt Whiting
> "Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:1163077120.5...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>True, my comments were inappropriate given his position, and I regret
>>them. However, aside from the obvious fact that you never, EVER speak
>>with a customer the way he did, it is common knowledge that (a) most
>>charter pilots NEVER fill the courtesy car, and (b) we all know they
>>don't make diddly squat for salary -- which is why those of us who provide
>>courtesy cars turn the other cheek and continue to let them
>>borrow our cars.
>
>
> In other words, you made a joke as a customer to a peer based on your own
> experience. He reacted negatively, you tried to make the best of it, he
> called you a name (literally...the "Kerry" thing.) Unfortunately, I've
> known a couple of belligerent pinheads like that. They have anger management
> and security issues and, even when slightly offended they perceive that the
> manly thing to do is throw their weight around and verbally abuse people.
Yes, that Kerry comment really was nasty! :-)
Matt
Matt Whiting
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 09:28:02 -0500, Stubby
> <William.Plu...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in
> <Lq-dnWMj8IRxp87Y...@comcast.com>:
>
>
>>Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
>>preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks.
>
>
>
> "To avoid criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."
> -- Elbert Hubbard
That won't work either.
Matt
Matt Whiting
> I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
> questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
> of it.
Well, Jay, you've definitely been upstaged! :-)
Matt
Bob Fry
AS> People get kicked out from
AS> establishments for all kinds of reasons, due to political,
AS> health and religious choices and some even go as far as racial
AS> discrimination.
Really...I don't know of anyone refused entrance or kicked out.
California has a much higher tolerance level.
--
She got her good looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon.
Groucho Marx
Scott Post
Al G <ager...@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>I got thrown out of a landfill once. Yep, 86'd from a dump for life, after
>questioning the managements "practices/Policy". I was always sort of proud
>of it.
>
I was with a drunken group that got thrown out of a porno shop in Amsterdam
for laughing at the merchandise. Saw three video titles with the word "virgin"
in them all with a picture of the same actress on the front. The owner
said if we couldn't be serious we'd have to leave.
--
Scott Post sep...@insightbb.com
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> I have to agree. I too flew 135 for years, and quite frankly
> couldn't afford lunch, let alone gas. I didn't find your comments insulting
> or untrue. Your comment was simply an expression of your experience. You
> were not making general statements about charter pilots everywhere, just at
> your hotel. If he was really offended, maybe the shoe fit?
One thing I've learned over the years is that the more defensive a person
becomes, the guiltier they feel.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
John Theune
contact with charter pilots and courtesy cars. I'd hazard to guess he's
has had more contacts in that situation then you or I have had. While
his experience does not cover all charter pilots, he does have some data
points to back his thoughts.
Morgans
"Stubby" <William.Plu...@alum.mit.edu> wrote
> Expressing an opinion, a religious view, political stance or sexual
> preference are now lightning rods for verbal attacks. I'm sorry you got
> hit, but you did have a good day for the most part.
Welcome to the "United States of the Offended."
--
Jim in NC
Morgans
"Richard Riley" <Ric...@mylastname.net> wrote
> If the Charter Pilot isn't aware that the people in his profession
> have a bad reputation, he is either a) in insular hermet living in a
> bubble or b) a moron. Jay did him a favor by letting him know that
> Charter Pilots are generally cheap, immature, insulting and superior.
>
> He then proved the point.
Damn! In these few above words, the point was summarized the best, of any of
the previous posts.
Ded on, Richard!
--
Jim in NC
P.S. : I'll be damned if I would try, in any way, to win back that guy. If
that makes me a bad person, so be it. I don't think I am, and that is what
counts, in the long run.
Larry Dighera
wrote in <DRK4h.24841$HD6....@tornado.southeast.rr.com>:
>Am I missing something here?
Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.
Larry Dighera
<grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@gmail.com> wrote in
<caL4h.1499$mR4....@tornado.texas.rr.com>:
>So, you should use "a" instead of "an"? Damn, this PC shit is
>complicated...
Actually, it's called English grammar.
kontiki
> Well, that should teach you to keep your mouth shut. We have all
> had to learn that lesson.
>
> Sam
All pilots are weirdos.
Larry Dighera
<NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote in
<12l71qo...@corp.supernews.com>:
>I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior. I
>realize it's popular today to call any sort of consideration for other
>people's feelings "politically correct", but really...you guys seem to be
>making a sport out of the practice. It doesn't matter how polite or
>"genteel" a person is, being ignorant and prejudiced is still a bad thing.
>I've known plenty of well-mannered people who nevertheless didn't have a
>clue when it came to avoiding insulting stereotypes.
You haven't spent much time in the mid west.
mike regish
mike
"John Theune" <JTh...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:2MO4h.6608$Tz.5453@trndny01...
Jay Honeck
>
> Would you like to hear my experience with privately owned hotels vs chains?
Sure!
:-)
Jay Honeck
> Pakistani...
Actually, many Pakistani motel owners are named "Jay" -- but their last
name is usually "Patel".
The Patel family has quietly and inexorably bought up nearly every
econobox motel in the country, one by one, simply by bringing more
family members over as properties became available.
In many cases their motels are quite excellent. In a seemingly equal
number of cases, their motels are simply appalling. I've not taken to
time to determine why, any more than I've figured out why 2 out of 3
restaurants suck and usually fail within three years.
The trick is to finding a good, privately owned HOTEL (not motel) is to
find the ones that are also members of their bed & breakfast guilds, as
we are. They are few and far between, but denote a level of excellence
that far exceeds the average MOtel.
Jay Honeck
> cut offs and this guy wasn't Steven P McNicolls???
I can almost guarantee that Steven would NOT be rude in any way, just
on reading his posts for all these years. Although his debate tactics
drive me crazy, he *is* a perfect gentleman, most of the time.
Jay Honeck
Not this time. However, airports are publically owned for a reason --
their primary impact is that they bring lots of dollars into the local
economy. Thus, the "business" this guy drove off was the $30 we spent
at the local restaurant, the $15 we spent at the local gas station
(filling HIS tank) plus any future business we could provide to his
FBO.
To better illustrate this effect, an Iowa State University study (done
in 2000) of Iowa airports shows that our Iowa City airport directly and
INDIRECTLY brings $5.7 million dollars per year into the local economy.
That's a nice chunk of change, and is made up of hundreds
(thousands?) of little guys like me (and Mary) flying in.
Jay Honeck
> for laughing at the merchandise. Saw three video titles with the word "virgin"
> in them all with a picture of the same actress on the front. The owner
> said if we couldn't be serious we'd have to leave.
Serious? In a porno shop? With a bunch of guys?
Wow, your story sure beats mine -- OR the landfill story!
:-)
Jay Honeck
>
> Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.
Untrue.
Mogas is only available for sale at airports that are run by
enlightened FBO owners -- and they (and mogas) are few and far between.
Jose
It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy. In that, race
is no different than occupation.
And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?
Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Jay Honeck
> benefit from courtesy cars just the same. I fill 'em up too but most of
> them have disappeared from around here. Gas is part of the exchange it
> just goes the other way.
>
> Am I missing something here?
We have designed our hotel to be a destination for private pilots. As
such, our suites have aviation themes, private jacuzzis, full kitchens,
a delivered breakfast, full kitchens, free internet, a massage
therapist, workout room, pool, etc...
All of these niceties result in a private pilot who brings his gal to
the inn for a weekend getaway, and will drop between $150 and $400 for
the weekend. In exchange, we are more than happy to provide them with
free pick-up/drop-off service, and free use of our full-sized Ford
Econoline conversion van. All we ask is that they put a little gas in
it.
Charter pilots, on the other hand, often ask for "day" rates (which we
won't offer), and arrive/depart at unpredictable times, making
pick-up/drop-off service difficult. Despite this, we bend ourselves
into a pretzel for them, because we love ALL pilots, and know the
plight these (usually) young guys are facing. They are quite literally
making NO money, their life-style sucks, and half the time they don't
even know what city they're in when they wake up in the morning.
They *always* ask for the cheapest possible rooms -- and are always
thrilled when they discover that they get to use our $35K van for free,
and that we deliver breakfast to their suite in the morning -- even
though they're staying in our cheapest suite. Every last one of them
leaves our place grateful and thankful -- but every last one of them
never, ever, EVER puts a drop of gas in the courtesy van.
Perhaps it's because of the phenomenon you've described, Bill -- they
are so used to being the guys who get a "free ride" at the FBO because
their company bought 700 gallons of Jet-A, that they simply can't get
their minds around an airport business like ours (which is rarer than
hen's teeth, for sure!) where they are NOT the big honchos at the
ranch?
Jose
> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> others.
... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap bastards"?
Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?
Jay Honeck
> credible person in the world, but the FBO guy may also have a side to
> this event.
> Just because you like Honeck, and hate FBO's like he seems to, doesn't
> mean Honeck is pearly white and above reproach here.
>
> Phil
Now I "hate FBOs"?! Good God, Phil, where did you ever get *that*
idea?
I don't mind you guys chiming in with your opinions -- after all, I
chose to post my experience here, opening myself up to comments from
all side of the issue -- but please don't make up stuff like this.
Bill Watson
situation than an FBO.
It's always seems like it's a matter of perspective.
I hope we make it out your way sometime soon. We'd love to see your hotel.
Thanks for the post as usual!
MauleDriver
Newps
Jose wrote:
>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
>> and if the statement is true then it's true.
>
>
> It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
> for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy.
In this case it's actually true.
>
> And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?
It would be OK to say, if it were true.
Peter Duniho
He has nowhere near enough data points to justify a comment describing "all"
charter pilots. Even the comment about whether they fill up the tank in the
car isn't supported, and I doubt he's got salary information for enough
charter pilots to even use up the fingers on one hand.
The funny thing is that he could have simply worded his statement
differently, describing only charter pilots he'd met. The guy might still
have gotten offended, but Jay would have been completely in the right to
describe the people he's actually met.
Of course, avoiding a sweeping generalization in such a manner as that is
probably something that would never occur to Jay, just as it still has not
occurred to him that he contributed to the situation somehow.
Pete
Peter Duniho
news:1163107091.1...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> others.
Well, first of all, Jay made his statement as one of fact, not opinion.
Secondly, I completely disagree that ALL opinions should be able to be made
without fear of a negative reaction (reprimand or otherwise). There are
LOTS of opinions that should be kept to oneself.
And before you go calling that attitude "politically correct", if you feel
that's the case then "politically correct" has been around for thousands of
years. Ironically, the culture within the US best known for its racism and
other inappropriate opinions is the one best known for being able to keep
those opinions to themselves and remain well-mannered and polite, even with
people that they scorn.
> Some of these opinions could be wrong (and all of us are wrong
> one time or another), but if the other person reacts violently, then
> the person offering his opinion is only going to widthraw and harden
> his beliefs.
I never said the other guy's reaction was appropriate. Personally, I'm
hard-pressed to think of any conversational faux pas that would justify
ejecting someone from a place of business. However, that doesn't mean Jay's
comment was appropriate in the first place. It just means that one would
normally expect the other person to take some higher ground than the
platform Jay was speaking from.
Pete
Peter Duniho
news:HPSdncg5dPDZPM7Y...@bresnan.com...
>> Actually, the person at the FBO displayed an overt intolerance towards an
>> ignorant comment that he KNEW TO BE FALSE.
>
> He couldn't know it to be false. He was a sample of one.
It only takes a sample of one to disprove a claim about "all".
Duh.
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
>> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
>> others.
>
> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap bastards"?
>
> Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?
Oh, good God... now I've heard it all. Jews have a long history of being
discriminated against in every part of the world. Some Jews are even
discriminated against in Israel. To your knowledge, what charter pilot has had
to deal with that sort of discrimination? Is there a large portion of the
world's population dedicating themselves to the destruction of charter pilots?
What an incredibly .... words fail me.
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> I never said the other guy's reaction was appropriate. Personally, I'm
> hard-pressed to think of any conversational faux pas that would justify
> ejecting someone from a place of business. However, that doesn't mean Jay's
> comment was appropriate in the first place. It just means that one would
> normally expect the other person to take some higher ground than the
> platform Jay was speaking from.
You're from California, right? Or Washington state?
Buck Murdock
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> ...to which he snarled "Okay, 'John Kerry' -- maybe you
> folks shouldn't be coming around here and borrowing my car anymore..."
That's what you get for trying to make intelligent conversation with a
hard-core Republican!
Andrew Sarangan
> > What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
> > opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
> > others.
>
> ... like saying "in my experience, Jews are all cheap bastards"?
>
> Does it even matter if, in your experience, it's true?
>
> Jose
If someone says "all pilots are spolied rich men", would you throw him
out of your house/airport/business? I hope not, because if you do, then
you will only be reinforcing that person's opinion of pilots. Instead,
I hope you will talk to that person calmly and patiently and educate
him on the subject.
If, on the other hand, Jay had walked up to the FBO pounding his fist
on the table, shouting to everyone at the lobby that all corporate
pilots are scums/bastards/assholes etc.. I could understand if he were
being thrown out, just like someone would get thrown out of a
restaurant/theater/airplane due to improper conduct. But that was
clearly not the case here.
The comment you mentioned above about Jews is not the same as the
examples we are talking about., The sole purpose of that comment is
derogatory and is meant to offend someone. I would rate that comment
along the same line as Jay pounding his fist and shouting at the FBO,
both of which call for a 'throwing out'.
Judah
> I am amazed at the number of people defending Jay's insulting behavior.
Why? Because of the number of people who flipped their lids and crucified
MXSManic for saying that flying is a Rich Man's Sport? ;)
Judah
news:R1Q4h.3391$IR4....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
>> This isn't a racial issue. Charter pilots are from every demographic
>> and if the statement is true then it's true.
>
> It has nothing to do with race. Race (in my example) is just a stand-in
> for =any= group which is percieved as being less worthy. In that, race
> is no different than occupation.
>
> And if it's true for a racial group, why is it not ok to say so?
>
> Jose
How is being cheap considered to be less worthy?
Some people think being thrifty and cost conscious is a good thing.
(Of course, I'm also Jewish.)
george
Jay Honeck wrote:
> > >Am I missing something here?
> >
> > Mr. Honeck only purchases mogas.
>
> Untrue.
>
> Mogas is only available for sale at airports that are run by
> enlightened FBO owners -- and they (and mogas) are few and far between.
>
I have the feeling that if you make enquiries on that particular
aitfield you may find that the FBO attendant has a history of that
behaviour.
Stop kicking yourself Jay you had the bad luck to run into a pillock
Judah
news:yoKdnSHd9-5SNc7Y...@comcast.com:
> "Andrew Sarangan" <asar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> What I am saying is that people should be able to express their
>> opinions freely without fearing negative reactions or reprimand from
>> others.
>
> Watched a show on the KKK the other day. Don't see how you can listen to
> any of those guys' opinions without getting pissed. But, hey...that's
> just me.
Yeah, but they take the "Jews are cheap bastards" to the next level by
adding, "so we should burn crosses on their lawn and kill them all."
And that's where their opinion goes from being mostly harmless, silly
stereotype to offensive and perhaps even intolerable.
But tolerance is not just about tolerating the differences that we all
have. It's about tolerating the people who don't - at least long enough to
have a chance to educate them. Sure, Jay's joke was insensitive and
tasteless. But it wasn't all that harmful by itself.
The reaction of the FBO Owner / Charter Pilot was immature and useless. He
would have been much better to smile and say, "I bet you didn't know I am
also a Charter Pilot." Then he might have changed Jay's opinion, even if
just a bit.
Tolerance goes both ways. If every time people get offended they
immediately shut the door and stomp their feet, no one will ever change.
Jay Honeck
Well, there's always OSH '07, if not beforehand? I've even found a
Maule flight model for the Kiwi...for your "flying" enjoyment!
> Thanks for the post as usual!
My pleasure. This group serves as an excellent sounding board for all
of our flying experiences, as well as (sometimes unwilling) guinea pigs
for each chapter of our life's story. As always, I receive far more
than I give.