Northwest CEO Richard Anderson Jabs General Aviation
Larry Dighera
While the airlines consume 94% of annual aviation fuel sales*, it's my
understanding that they are largely exempt fuel tax**. So who's right
on the issue of ATC funding?
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AOPA ePilot Volume 6, Issue 11 March 12, 2004
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AIRLINE MAGAZINE TAKES SHOTS AT GA
If you happened to travel on Northwest Airlines recently you may
have been upset by a little turbulence, but not the kind caused by
meteorological forces. A column
(http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/aword/ )
in the airline's magazine, written by Northwest CEO Richard
Anderson, took some jabs at general aviation and how the air
traffic control system is funded. "As the system works today, you,
the commercial airline passenger, are subsidizing private aircraft
ownership. This is not right," he wrote. But he's not right. As a
general aviation pilot, you know very well that flying and using
the system isn't free. You pay a wide range of fees from fuel
taxes to landing fees. And you also know that you don't enjoy many
of the services the airlines do. AOPA President Phil Boyer wants
to arrange a meeting with Anderson to straighten out
misconceptions caused by the column (as well as discuss issues
regarding reliever airports in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area). We
will keep you posted.
* http://www.aopa.org/special/newsroom/stats/activity.html
** Message-ID: <7e634727.04031...@posting.google.com>
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2000/caact0008.html
Airlines are already exempt from paying a two-cent-per-gallon excise
tax on jet fuel that general aviation aircraft must pay in addition to
the regular sales tax on fuel.
G.R. Patterson III
Larry Dighera wrote:
>
> While the airlines consume 94% of annual aviation fuel sales*, it's my
> understanding that they are largely exempt fuel tax**.
But they pay something like 10% of all their ticket sales into the fund. One
flight by a twin-engine commuter in this area pays more taxes into the fund than
I do in a year. That flight also uses more facilities than I do, but they're
still paying their way.
George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.
Teacherjh
But they pay something like 10% of all their ticket sales into the fund.
<<
Not quite. The taxes are added to the price of the ticket after the advertised
price. So, the money being paid comes directly (rather than indirectly) from
the public, inasmuch as when I buy a $400 ticket, I have to pay more like $400
+ $20 + $43 + $2 + $14. The airline gets the (large) beneift of advertising a
$400 fare, and I get the "benefit" of paying $479 for this $400 ticket.
Jose
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
G.R. Patterson III
Teacherjh wrote:
>
> >>
> But they pay something like 10% of all their ticket sales into the fund.
> <<
>
> Not quite. The taxes are added to the price of the ticket after the advertised
> price. So, the money being paid comes directly (rather than indirectly) from
> the public, inasmuch as when I buy a $400 ticket, I have to pay more like $400
> + $20 + $43 + $2 + $14. The airline gets the (large) beneift of advertising a
> $400 fare, and I get the "benefit" of paying $479 for this $400 ticket.
Same thing. Everything is paid for by the consumer in the end.
Larry Dighera
<grpp...@verizon.net> wrote in Message-Id:
<40536E73...@verizon.net>:
>Everything is paid for by the consumer in the end.
I haven't noticed any airline consumers paying the tax on GA fuel nor
GA landing fees.
S Green
"Larry Dighera" <LDig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:btg650di6fkk0nsd0...@4ax.com...
what about all the post 9/11 funding the airlines got from federal funds.
Who supplies that money - the tooth fairy?
Mike Rapoport
Mike
MU-2
"S Green" <stevenos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c2vpq9$a4u$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Eric Rood
tax on GA fuel nor
> GA landing fees.
Airlines usually pay a landing fee based on aircraft weight. ie.... $$$$
per 1000 pounds gross weight.
Here in Columbus OH is something like $1.25/1000 lbs.
Orval Fairbairn
wrote:
Of course, GA doesn't need 10000 feet of concrete 12 feet thick, nor
fancy terminals with elaborate security, nor baggage handling machines
nor Class B/C air traffic control measures, either.
All we need are runways paved to highway specs and 3000 - 5000 feeet
long, plus simple facilities containing an FBO office and a flight
planning room with DUATS and Weather Channel.
J. Severyn
>
> While the airlines consume 94% of annual aviation fuel sales*, it's my
> understanding that they are largely exempt fuel tax**. So who's right
>
Drop Mr. Anderson a word or two. I just did. They have a "Talk to us" web
email page to comment back to Northwest. So while he is "working with the
federal government to find solutions" to this so called injustice, I will
not help his profit margin by buying a NWA ticket ever again. Very simple.
Jab back.
J. Severyn
Brian Cox
to see areas where the airlines benefit from GA, or from other
sectors. The pilot candidates that funnel into the airlines are
either trained by the U.S. Government (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines,
Coast Guard), or come up through the GA ranks through great personal
sacrifice.
Many of the towered airports in this country, including my home field
(BJC), depend on a large number of general aviation takeoffs and
landings to qualify for a tower and staff - the purely commercial
traffic won't provide enough activity to justify the facility.
It is unfortunate when an aviation industry veteran takes such a
libertarian view. He chooses to take pot shots at GA for his
perception that it is subsidized by another segment of the industry,
while conveniently ignoring any areas where the air transport industry
derives benefit. Any view that does not recognize that GA contributes
to the overall well being of Air Transport, and to the country's
general economy, is surely misguided.
How unfortunate.
Brian Cox
Larry Dighera
<PLEASEjsev...@znet.com> wrote in Message-Id:
<10793326...@news-1.nethere.net>:
Thanks for the information. I think a summary of the facts presented
in this message thread might be suitable for inclusion in a note to
Mr. Anderson. Can you provide his e-mail address?
Larry Dighera
It would be interesting to know how much funding R. W. Pool receives
from airline sources.
ATC USER FEES: AOPA, NORTHWEST BUTT HEADS
AOPA President Phil Boyer says his "productive meeting" with
Northwest Airlines CEO Richard Anderson Friday led to the result
that the two "will agree to disagree" on the topic of user fees
for air traffic control services. Anderson claimed in an editorial
in Northwest's Inflight Magazine (reported earlier by AVweb) that
airlines are subsidizing general aviation through the fees they
pay for aviation services. Boyer said Anderson's remarks might
have been sparked by the lawsuit Northwest has launched against
the Metropolitan Airport Commission, which runs Minneapolis-St
Paul International (MSP) and six reliever airports. The commission
uses some of the revenue from MSP to cover costs at the other
airports. Northwest believes the money generated at MSP should
stay there. "I think the real issue (for Northwest) is a pretty
localized one," Boyer said. Meanwhile, USA Today guest opinion
writer Robert W. Poole Jr. says it's time the FAA started
charging for air traffic control services so it can keep up with
market demand.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/218-full.html#187026
Casey Wilson
> AOPA President Phil Boyer says his "productive meeting" with
> Northwest Airlines CEO Richard Anderson Friday led to the result
> that the two "will agree to disagree" on the topic of user fees
> for air traffic control services. Anderson claimed in an editorial
> in Northwest's Inflight Magazine (reported earlier by AVweb) that
> airlines are subsidizing general aviation through the fees they
> pay for aviation services. Boyer said Anderson's remarks might
>
Since user fees will more than likely become a fact of life someday,
how about beginning to lobby for the conditions of said fees. Like, how
about fees based on airframe weight. Yeah, that seems like a good ratio.
Peter Duniho
news:ANgcc.11687$I66....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> Since user fees will more than likely become a fact of life someday,
> how about beginning to lobby for the conditions of said fees.
Maybe we ought to turn all the interstate highways into toll roads too.
I don't see why user fees are a foregone conclusion. There's a strong
argument that the aviation infrastructure is simply part of the national
transportation system, just as public roads are, and should be primarily
funded from the public tax base.
Conversely, if we're going to accept user fees for all airports and aviation
services, why don't we just eliminate all public funding, and impose fee
structures on everything. Education, highways, parks, defense, law
enforcement, emergency response, and everything else your taxes currently
pay for.
Pete
Ross Oliver
>
>I don't see why user fees are a foregone conclusion. There's a strong
>argument that the aviation infrastructure is simply part of the national
>transportation system, just as public roads are, and should be primarily
>funded from the public tax base.
A large chunk of the aviation infrastructure is already funded by user
fees, aka ticket taxes. The airlines' argument is their customers pay
this user fee, but private and corporate jets do not. These private
jets compete with the airliners for space in the jetways.
I don't think the airlines really give a hoot about piston aircraft, since
we are fairly well segregated from the airliners. They care most about
the private jets that directly compete with the airliners for slots
on the jetways and airport approaches and departures.
EDR
<NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote:
> Maybe we ought to turn all the interstate highways into toll roads too.
There was an article in my Sunday newspaper relating that the federal
government has already relaxed control of the interstate highway system
to allow toll enhancements along the interstate highway right of way.
EDR
Didn't Boeing just dump their privatization project because it was
going to cost more than their return their return on investment?
Ron Natalie
"Ross Oliver" <r...@roscoe.airaffair.com> wrote in message news:slrnc73df...@roscoe.airaffair.com...
> A large chunk of the aviation infrastructure is already funded by user
> fees, aka ticket taxes. The airlines' argument is their customers pay
> this user fee, but private and corporate jets do not. These private
> jets compete with the airliners for space in the jetways.
It is NOT the case that GA doesn't pay. There's already a hefty
fuel tax. The airlines have just come up with a scheme that allows
them shift more to people other than them.
>
> I don't think the airlines really give a hoot about piston aircraft, since
> we are fairly well segregated from the airliners. They care most about
> the private jets that directly compete with the airliners for slots
> on the jetways and airport approaches and departures.
I don't think it's a competition thing. It's a $$$ thing. The airlines are already
at the head of the line for arrival slots. By jetway I assume you mean airway.
A jetway is a passenger loading bridge. There's not really any competition
for airway use other than terminal arrivals.
Larry Dighera
It looks like Northwest Airlines sparked some resonance with that
sensationalist rag USA Today:
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AOPA ePilot Volume 6, Issue 16 April 16, 2004
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AOPA DEFENDS GA AGAINST 'USA TODAY'S' CALL FOR USER FEES
AOPA on Thursday defended general aviation against a "USA Today"
editorial that claims airline passengers "subsidize" general aviation.
In an opposing view piece published alongside the paper's editorial,
AOPA President Phil Boyer explained to "USA Today" readers that the
current system is a single structure, designed for the airlines. See
AOPA Online (
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2004/04-2-025x.html )
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 15:41:33 GMT, Larry Dighera <LDig...@att.net>
wrote in Message-Id: <25v270t3r6r6ei24j...@4ax.com>: