About forward slips
Mxsmanic
aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
main uses of the forward slip? And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
I've been reading about this, and from what I understand, the
procedure is to roll to one side and hold the rudder to the opposite
side. I've tried this in the sim. The aircraft rolls to the side I'm
rolling it to, and then seems to slide downward almost in the same
plane as the wings, only a bit steeper. Altitude is lost very quickly
indeed, but airspeed stays steady. Is this what happens in real life?
Am I doing it correctly? What's the correct procedure to return to
level flight?
Somebody said that MSFS cannot simulate forward slips correctly. What
is missing in the simulation?
Note that, by default, MSFS is configured to link the rudder to the
ailerons. All turns are forced into coordinated turns, and there's no
independent rudder control. This can be turned off to improve
realism. But with this default option enabled, it's impossible to
perform any maneuver that requires rudder control independent of
aileron control.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Gary Drescher
news:159fk2dq99usic797...@4ax.com...
> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
> main uses of the forward slip? And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
gatt
> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
> main uses of the forward slip? And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
A forward slip is a way of losing altitude rapidly without gaining
substantial airspeed, essentially by placing the airplane in a stable
condition in which the wings are less-effective. Another use of a slip is
to align the aircraft with the runway during a crosswind.
Executing a forward slip, for its most basic flight-sim-type purposes,
involves lowering one wing with the aileron and using opposite rudder to
keep the aircraft oriented; it can be dangerous at slow speeds because the
crossed controls create a perfect condition for spin entry on a stall during
short final.
The oppose rudder (if left wing is dipped, right rudder is applied)
introduces drag as the tail is no longer aligned with the direction of
travel, and the airflow comes over the wing at an angle instead of direct,
reducing the component of lift across the airfoil.
Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't stall
and 3) Don't stall.
-c
Grumman-581
> Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't stall
> and 3) Don't stall.
And ...
4) The ground will catch you...
A Lieberma
news:wY6dnXJSdJnDNNrY...@comcast.com:
He won't read it :-(
Allen
Stubby
Right. The first turn of a spin will lose about 500' or more. Not good
if you are pulling from a long base to final. And, you probably won't
have enough rudder to get it out.
dea...@msn.com
Wade Hasbrouck
<dea...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1162332201.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Make sure you have the flaps fully deployed when you do it.... :)
>
Especially if it is a C-172N with the placard that says "Avoid Slips with
the Flaps Extended" while on a checkride... :-)
kdar...@basit.com
Mxsmanic wrote:
> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
> main uses of the forward slip? And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_(aerodynamic)
> Somebody said that MSFS cannot simulate forward slips correctly. What
> is missing in the simulation?
I've read it has something to do with its inability to calculate the
lift, or perhaps just the default aircraft don't handle it. However,
I believe some third party aircraft explicity address the slip issue.
What's that C172 realistic addon? Drat. I've forgotten, but it's a
far better 172 than the stock one.
> Note that, by default, MSFS is configured to link the rudder to the
> ailerons. All turns are forced into coordinated turns, and there's no
> independent rudder control.
That's a major reason why simmers who don't own rudder pedals get
little of the realism that the sim can sometimes offer.
Kev
kdar...@basit.com
gatt wrote:
> Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't stall
> and 3) Don't stall.
When I slip to landing, I always crank in some small forward (down)
trim just in case I get distracted. Am I the only one that's this
paranoid?
Kev
Jay Beckman
<kdar...@basit.com> wrote in message
news:1162339449.7...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
>> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
>> main uses of the forward slip? And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_(aerodynamic)
>
>> Somebody said that MSFS cannot simulate forward slips correctly. What
>> is missing in the simulation?
>
> I've read it has something to do with its inability to calculate the
> lift, or perhaps just the default aircraft don't handle it. However,
> I believe some third party aircraft explicity address the slip issue.
> What's that C172 realistic addon? Drat. I've forgotten, but it's a
> far better 172 than the stock one.
>
>> Note that, by default, MSFS is configured to link the rudder to the
>> ailerons. All turns are forced into coordinated turns, and there's no
>> independent rudder control.
Not true. You can deselect "Auto Rudder" and have independant rudder
control.
I believe the add-on 172 you are trying to think of is this one from Flight
1:
http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=esd172
> That's a major reason why simmers who don't own rudder pedals get little
> of the realism that the sim can sometimes offer.
Now that's a true statement.
Jay B
kdar...@basit.com
Jay Beckman wrote:
> I believe the add-on 172 you are trying to think of is this one from Flight 1
> http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=esd172
Thanks for that, but I finally recalled the one I was thinking of: the
"RealAir 172SP". It can do slips and spins, and felt pretty realistic
compared to the stock one.
Kev
A Lieberma
news:1162339658.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Hmmm, real bad time to be distracted *smile*.
You already are high on approach (why do the slip?), last thing you want to
do at least in my opinion is add down trim for additional speed????
Once I get my trim set for my 68 knot approach speed (on downwind), it
stays there until the tires meet the road.
My right hand never leaves the throttle on base to final.
Allen
kdar...@basit.com
> > trim just in case I get distracted. Am I the only one that's this
> > paranoid?
>
> do at least in my opinion is add down trim for additional speed????
Right, I don't want more speed unless needed, so I pull a little back
on the yoke. But the slight trim offset allows me to let go and
automatically speed up and thus not worry so much about a stall.
( I must do this because of something that scared me in the past, but I
can't for the life of me recall what it was. Perhaps slipping on a
very gusty day or something? Or having to push forward and there was
some problem doing so? I dunno! :-)
Thanks for the response! Perhaps I'll change this habit.
Kev
Jose
> Not true. You can deselect "Auto Rudder"...
... and then you are no longer in the default configuration.
Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Matt Whiting
Yes, you are.
Matt
Roy Smith
Matt Whiting <whi...@epix.net> wrote:
When I was practicing for my CFI ride, I was doing cross-controlled stalls
in an Arrow. Once you get over the initial concept that you're
intentionally trying to do what you've always been taught you're never
supposed to do, you quickly discover that (at least in an Arrow), it's
almost impossible to get the damn thing to actually stall like that. Full
rudder, full opposite ailerion, idle power, and full back elevator. The
damn thing just sort of slowly yaws (pro-rudder, as I remember), and mushes
like a wounded duck with its nose up the air.
Well, except for the one time that I did actually manage to get it to
stall. That was a little more exciting. My first indication that
something was wrong was when my flight bag went bouncing off the cabin
ceiling :-)
Dudley Henriques
<kdar...@basit.com> wrote in message
news:1162341904.1...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Rob Young and his team at Realair have done some wonderful work with slip
realism in MSFS.
It took some fancy programming too from what I understand.
Using pedals, the sim pilot is afforded a much closer accuracy factor toward
the aerodynamics involved in an actual slip, but there are aspects of the
equation that are extremely difficult to program into a simulation. For
example, the rate of sink due to drag in a slip will vary a great deal from
airplane to airplane at various angles of attack and amounts of applied
opposite rudder to negate the turn. Its a VERY complicated formula.
Mild slips have been possible using the default aircraft in the sim using
rudder pedals but the tendency to turn into the low wing has always been
there and becomes prevalent if the low wing is banked past a very low angle
of bank. In other words, using defaults, the bank angle overcomes the
adverse rudder required to create the slip by negating the offset lift
vector.
Realair, with some absolutely magnificent programming, managed to improve
the aerodynamics required for slips in their add on aircraft. I can attest
to the fact that their Spitfire for one, handles in a slip in the sim
exactly like its real counterpart, as does the 260. I haven't tested the
172, but I'm willing to bet the house its as accurate as the others.
Dudley Henriques
MVP/Flight Simulator
Viperdoc
forward slip is a perfect setup for entry into an inverted spin or an
outside snap roll, which can be particularly impressive on short final in a
Cherokee.
Mxsmanic
> He won't read it :-(
Wrong tense. He had already read it. But he hoped that someone here
might have something useful to contribute. Perhaps that optimism was
without justification.
Mxsmanic
> Executing a forward slip, for its most basic flight-sim-type purposes,
> involves lowering one wing with the aileron and using opposite rudder to
> keep the aircraft oriented; it can be dangerous at slow speeds because the
> crossed controls create a perfect condition for spin entry on a stall during
> short final.
I worry that it might somehow lead me into danger, but some of the
stuff I've read claims that slips are very unlikely to produce stalls,
unlike skids, which supposedly are known for that. The FAA book even
claims that some aircraft have better stall behavior in a slip, if I
understand it correctly.
> The oppose rudder (if left wing is dipped, right rudder is applied)
> introduces drag as the tail is no longer aligned with the direction of
> travel, and the airflow comes over the wing at an angle instead of direct,
> reducing the component of lift across the airfoil.
I was wondering what was absorbing the kinetic energy of the aircraft,
since normally a loss of altitude requires an increase in airspeed, if
nothing absorbs the energy.
> Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't stall
> and 3) Don't stall.
And how do I avoid stalls while slipping?
Mxsmanic
> I've read it has something to do with its inability to calculate the
> lift, or perhaps just the default aircraft don't handle it. However,
> I believe some third party aircraft explicity address the slip issue.
> What's that C172 realistic addon? Drat. I've forgotten, but it's a
> far better 172 than the stock one.
From the descriptions I've read here and elsewhere, it seems to slip
as a real aircraft would, even with default aircraft.
Lately I've been just flying the plane, rather than practicing precise
movements in accordance with regulations, and it seems rather easy to
control. Eventually I'll have to get some rudder pedals, maybe, as
controlling the rudder by twisting the throttle requires a lot of
practice, and I don't know of any real-world aircraft that works this
way. Trying to maintain a coordinated turn is a challenge.
> That's a major reason why simmers who don't own rudder pedals get
> little of the realism that the sim can sometimes offer.
I was thinking that it would be a major reason why some people might
not get the realism they want in maneuvers; it's not that the sim
can't do it, it's just that the default configuration locks the rudder
to the ailerons.
--
Mxsmanic
> Not true. You can deselect "Auto Rudder" and have independant rudder
> control.
That's why I said "by default is configured" instead of "you have no
choice."
Mxsmanic
Okay, just out of curiosity, what do I have to do to enter the
inverted spin or snap roll?
And what is a snap roll, anyway?
john smith
Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
> When I was practicing for my CFI ride, I was doing cross-controlled stalls
> in an Arrow. Once you get over the initial concept that you're
> intentionally trying to do what you've always been taught you're never
> supposed to do, you quickly discover that (at least in an Arrow), it's
> almost impossible to get the damn thing to actually stall like that. Full
> rudder, full opposite ailerion, idle power, and full back elevator. The
> damn thing just sort of slowly yaws (pro-rudder, as I remember), and mushes
> like a wounded duck with its nose up the air.
> Well, except for the one time that I did actually manage to get it to
> stall. That was a little more exciting. My first indication that
> something was wrong was when my flight bag went bouncing off the cabin
> ceiling :-)
Do that in a Tcraft or a Cessna 170 and you will be on your back before
you can stop your eyeballs on the horizon. It is called a snap- (or
flick-) roll. If you do not know how to fly inverted or recover from
inverted spins, you don't want to explore the possibility.
Wizard of Draws
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I worry that it might somehow lead me into danger, [snip]
>
Ahhh, the dreaded "Blue Screen of Death". Courage, O Intrepid One, courage.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.cartoonclipart.com
Mxsmanic
> Ahhh, the dreaded "Blue Screen of Death".
I meant an impact with terrain.
Jay Beckman
"Jose" <teac...@aol.nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:zqS1h.6350$s6....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>Note that, by default, MSFS is configured to ...
>> Not true. You can deselect "Auto Rudder"...
>
> ... and then you are no longer in the default configuration.
>
> Jose
Picked Nit duly noted...
:OP
Jay B
Grumman-581
news:jsmith-D1306B....@network-065-024-007-027.columbus.rr.com...
> Do that in a Tcraft or a Cessna 170 and you will be on your back before
> you can stop your eyeballs on the horizon. It is called a snap- (or
> flick-) roll. If you do not know how to fly inverted or recover from
> inverted spins, you don't want to explore the possibility.
I accidentally did a snap roll in an S2B once... 90 degree turn at 90
degrees of bank, *quite* a few Gs in the process... Accellerated stall while
banked 90 degrees, but the ball wasn't quite centered... Rotated through the
high wing 270+ degrees and then into a spin headed for the ground... It
happed so quickly that I had originally thought that I had went over the
other way... Of course, since it was an S2B, spin recovery is basically a
non-event...
Peter Dohm
> Especially if it is a C-172N with the placard that says "Avoid Slips with
> the Flaps Extended" while on a checkride... :-)
>
Fortunately, cross wind correction seemed to be permitted... :-)
Peter
Michael Houghton
In article <q92gk213d8msu19no...@4ax.com>,
Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>gatt writes:
>
>> Executing a forward slip, for its most basic flight-sim-type purposes,
>> involves lowering one wing with the aileron and using opposite rudder to
>> keep the aircraft oriented; it can be dangerous at slow speeds because the
>> crossed controls create a perfect condition for spin entry on a stall during
>> short final.
That statement is just flat incorrect. It's the skidding turn that
creates the dangerous condition. Crossed controls are not, per se,
risky. They merely set up a way to dump altitude without picking
up excess speed, or to make the airplane fly somewhat sideways, in
order to maintain alignment with a ground feature in a crosswind.
>
>I worry that it might somehow lead me into danger, but some of the
>stuff I've read claims that slips are very unlikely to produce stalls,
>unlike skids, which supposedly are known for that. The FAA book even
>claims that some aircraft have better stall behavior in a slip, if I
>understand it correctly.
That's a pretty reasonably synopsis. Slips are less likely to degenerate
into a spin, while skids are much more risky.
In a skid, you are (ab-)using the rudder to try to yaw the plane more
quickly than you can with the coordinated turn you were in. That causes
outside wing to move faster (and the inside wing slower). If you get
too vigorous, you might slow the inside wing enough to induce a stall.
That causes the inside wing to drop rapidly, leading quickly to a
spin. This is Real Bad if you were trying to hurry that base to final
turn that you got a bit sloppy with...
>
>> Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't stall
>> and 3) Don't stall.
>
>And how do I avoid stalls while slipping?
Don't pull back too hard on the stick. Simply entering a slip won't
cause a stall. It may cause you to go down faster than you want,
but it won't lead to a stall. Slips are rudder-aileron drills.
yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
her...@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix narrowwares
Bowie, MD, USA | http://whitewolfandphoenix.com
Proud member of the SCA Internet Whitewash Squad
Michael Houghton
Dudley Henriques
"Michael Houghton" <her...@radix.net> wrote in message
news:12kha6a...@corp.supernews.com...
> Howdy!
>
> In article <AmT1h.42856$cc3....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
> Viperdoc <jni...@NOattglobalSPAMM.net> wrote:
>>The other thing to remember is that the cross controlled condition in a
>>forward slip is a perfect setup for entry into an inverted spin or an
>>outside snap roll, which can be particularly impressive on short final in
>>a
>>Cherokee.
>>
> Ummm...really?
>
> yours,
> Michael
Nice to see someone on the ball here :-)
Dudley Henriques
Christopher Brian Colohan
> gatt writes:
> I was wondering what was absorbing the kinetic energy of the aircraft,
> since normally a loss of altitude requires an increase in airspeed, if
> nothing absorbs the energy.
Drag. In a slip you are sliding sideways through the air. This means
you are trying to push the side of the fuselage through the air. It
is not designed to be very aerodynamic going sideways, so when you do
this you will create all sorts of extra drag which the plane does not
normally have.
Chris
john smith
ramap...@gmail.com
> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
This might help... http://tinyurl.com/yhd7km
You might want to do it in an emergency descent situation when you find
yourself very near an airfield and are too high to make a normal
approach and you've to suddenly lose a lot of altitude.
Ramapriya
not a pilot, so don't listen to me :)
Mxsmanic
> I accidentally did a snap roll in an S2B once... 90 degree turn at 90
> degrees of bank, *quite* a few Gs in the process... Accellerated stall while
> banked 90 degrees, but the ball wasn't quite centered...
It's impossible for a 90-degree turn to be coordinated--such a turn
would pull infinite accelerations.
Mxsmanic
> Drag. In a slip you are sliding sideways through the air. This means
> you are trying to push the side of the fuselage through the air. It
> is not designed to be very aerodynamic going sideways, so when you do
> this you will create all sorts of extra drag which the plane does not
> normally have.
That explains it. Thanks. Slips may come in handy for me since I
never seem to be able to roll out to final with any reasonable
alignment with the runway. I suppose in real life I could look out a
side window and estimate my alignment better, but somehow I think it
might still be difficult for me. The other legs work out okay; I'm
flying nice rounded rectangles now (MSFS lets you analyze your ground
track and altitude profiles, so you can easily check your work).
Mxsmanic
> This might help... http://tinyurl.com/yhd7km
Hmm ... looks like a pretty comprehensive explanation.
B A R R Y
>
> Do that in a Tcraft or a Cessna 170 and you will be on your back before
> you can stop your eyeballs on the horizon. It is called a snap- (or
> flick-) roll. If you do not know how to fly inverted or recover from
> inverted spins, you don't want to explore the possibility.
The first time I slipped my Sundowner as a student, we got a buffet
which instantly got my instructor's attention. It needs decent down
elevator in with the crossed controls.
I'm thankful we weren't in a Tcraft or C170. <G>
Ron Wanttaja
> What's the proper procedure to execute a forward slip, how should the
> aircraft be expected to react when it is performed, and what are the
> main uses of the forward slip?
Ideally, the plane should drop like a shotgunned duck. The velocity vector
remains pointed in the same direction, but the aircraft is maneuvered so that it
is no longer pointed in the direction of the relative wind. Hence...lots more
drag, which means the descent angle can be steeper.
The main use is that it allows you to maintain a reserve of altitude that you
can get rid of quickly once making the runway is assured. Or, if landing on a
runway with a physical barrier at the approach end (a line of trees, for
instance), one can increase the descent rate once clear of the trees and land
earlier on the runway.
>And why is it called a _forward_ slip?
Because the airplane, while in a turning attitude, does not turn...it travels in
the same direction it was before the maneuver started.
Here's a couple of videos. This one is shot from an axle-mounted camera on my
airplane:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip.wmv
The second one is video taken from the ground of me performing the same manu
ever on a different day:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip2.wmv
> Somebody said that MSFS cannot simulate forward slips correctly. What
> is missing in the simulation?
The Fly Baby model on MSFS can't, but I always figured that was my fault. :-)
Ron Wanttaja
gatt
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:q92gk213d8msu19no...@4ax.com...
>> Three basic rules about slipping on final are 1) Don't stall, 2) Don't
>> stall
>> and 3) Don't stall.
>
> And how do I avoid stalls while slipping?
Stay a few knots above stall speed and don't make any abrupt control
changes. If you're in a high performance airplane and have to go around or
something, don't throw in full power and torque yourself over.
-c
Andrew Gideon
> And what is a snap roll, anyway?
Raw snapper wrapped in rice.
- Andrew
Andrew Gideon
> I meant an impact with terrain.
Don't drink while you simulate. It makes falling out of your chair less
likely.
Jay Beckman
"Andrew Gideon" <ag7...@gideon.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.11.01....@gideon.org...
Damn, there goes ANOTHER keyboard...
ROFL...
Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
Stefan
> And what is a snap roll, anyway?
It's merkin talk for flick roll.
Stefan
Gig 601XL Builder
<ramap...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162392711.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Now Ramapriya is a perfect example of a nonpilot that has meshed into the
group. He asked some pretty silly questions when he first started posting
but he has spent some time around here and learned things about flying. You
could really take some pointers from him Manic.
Jim Macklin
factor.
"Stefan" <stefan@mus._INVALID_.ch> wrote in message
news:9f50b$4548f5ed$54497cbc$92...@news.hispeed.ch...
Mxsmanic
> Don't drink while you simulate.
I don't drink at all.
Mxsmanic
> It's merkin talk for flick roll.
I don't know what a flick roll is, either.
As far as I can determine, a snap roll is simply a roll that occurs
suddenly.
Mxsmanic
> Now Ramapriya is a perfect example of a nonpilot that has meshed into the
> group. He asked some pretty silly questions when he first started posting
> but he has spent some time around here and learned things about flying. You
> could really take some pointers from him Manic.
I'm not trying to join a boys' club. I'm trying to learn about
aviation.
Stefan
> I don't know what a flick roll is, either.
Ask Google and then come back if details remain unclear.
Stefan
Mxsmanic
> Ideally, the plane should drop like a shotgunned duck.
I've achieved some fairly high descent rates (faster than I could
normally achieve by other means), but not as fast as I've been led to
believe a slip could achieve. The plane keeps wanting to fly. I'll
grant that it's extremely difficult to coordinate the controls with a
twist-throttle rudder control (which is extremely sensitive).
> The velocity vector
> remains pointed in the same direction, but the aircraft is maneuvered so that it
> is no longer pointed in the direction of the relative wind. Hence...lots more
> drag, which means the descent angle can be steeper.
I presume that if I do it correctly, then, there should be no change
in the actual direction of motion of the aircraft, but only a change
in its orientation in the air, right? I haven't achieved that thus
far.
> Because the airplane, while in a turning attitude, does not turn...it travels in
> the same direction it was before the maneuver started.
So if I'm going straight in and I do a forward flip, I should be able
to look off to the left out the window and see the runway approaching
me (or to the right, although that might be harder from the left
seat).
> Here's a couple of videos. This one is shot from an axle-mounted camera on my
> airplane:
>
> http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip.wmv
>
> The second one is video taken from the ground of me performing the same manu
> ever on a different day:
>
> http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip2.wmv
Nicely done. I gather that you were actually looking sideways down at
the runway, and not in the direction the axle-mounted camera was
looking?
I've managed to get the aircraft to descend kind of that way, but it's
very hard to keep it stable and aligned with the runway. However, I
notice that even in your case the aircraft moves around a bit.
> The Fly Baby model on MSFS can't, but I always figured that was
> my fault. :-)
Or you had automatic rudder coordination turned on (it's the default).
A Lieberma
news:0l4ik2psvhpjsktht...@4ax.com:
> I'm not trying to join a boys' club. I'm trying to learn about
> aviation.
Then look up your questions on the internet, and if you have questions,
then post your question with the reference you looked up.
Then you can say you are trying to learn....
Allen
Happy Dog
> Stefan writes:
>
>> It's merkin talk for flick roll.
>
> I don't know what a flick roll is, either.
>
> As far as I can determine,
That's telling...
a snap roll is simply a roll that occurs
> suddenly.
Then just leave it at that.
m
Mxsmanic
> Then look up your questions on the internet, and if you have questions,
> then post your question with the reference you looked up.
>
> Then you can say you are trying to learn....
I had hoped that this newsgroup would have a high concentration of
people knowledgeable about piloting, but it appears that I may have
been excessively optimistic.
Neil Gould
> A Lieberma writes:
>
>> Then look up your questions on the internet, and if you have
>> questions, then post your question with the reference you looked up.
>>
>> Then you can say you are trying to learn....
>
> I had hoped that this newsgroup would have a high concentration of
> people knowledgeable about piloting, but it appears that I may have
> been excessively optimistic.
>
Obviously, this newsgroup does have a high concentration of people
knowledgeable about piloting. That is the main reason that your approach
is so repulsive.
Neil
Newps
Mxsmanic wrote:
> I had hoped that this newsgroup would have a high concentration of
> people knowledgeable about piloting, but it appears that I may have
> been excessively optimistic.
>
Then why do you say stupid shit like this:
There are very few types of weather that will stop a bicycle. A VFR
flight is stopped by a fluffy little cloud.
Gig 601XL Builder
> Andrew Gideon writes:
>
>> Don't drink while you simulate.
>
> I don't drink at all.
>
Maybe you should start.
Gig 601XL Builder
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> Now Ramapriya is a perfect example of a nonpilot that has meshed into the
>> group. He asked some pretty silly questions when he first started posting
>> but he has spent some time around here and learned things about flying.
>> You
>> could really take some pointers from him Manic.
>
> I'm not trying to join a boys' club. I'm trying to learn about
> aviation.
>
And you might if you took the path that Ramapriya has in this group.
Grumman-581
> If you pull high G, you can probably get the 90 degree turn
> done with wings vertical in 1 to 2 seconds. The whole time
> you are "falling" (or slowing your climb) and this requires
> the aircraft to change it's vertical velocity by about 1800
> to 3600 ft/min (ignoring drag). Not easy, but barely
> possible in an aerobatic aircraft. Then you roll out and
> recover.
In the S2B, the maneuver was to snap to a 90 degree bank, pull back on
the stick for a 90 degree turn, then snap back level, and then snap to a
90 degree bank in the other direction... Even if you completely discount
the lift generated by the fuselage while in the 90 degree bank, the
altitude deviation is not extreme... Theoretically, if you did it within
a second, you only lose 16 ft... If you do it within 2 seconds, you lose
64 ft... If you do it within 3 seconds, you'll lose 144 ft... At 2000 ft
and high Gs, you don't really notice a loss of that little... You do
kind of notice being in a spin a 2000 ft though...
A Lieberma
@news.supernews.com:
>> I don't drink at all.
>>
>
> Maybe you should start.
Can a computer sim a shot of Wild Turkey?
gatt
> I've achieved some fairly high descent rates (faster than I could
> normally achieve by other means), but not as fast as I've been led to
> believe a slip could achieve. The plane keeps wanting to fly.
As long as their is unbroken airflow over the wings, there will be lift.
If there's one single indicator of the effectiveness of a slip, it's
probably the VSI
(vertical speed indicator, or rate-of-climb indicator.) If it's an extreme
slip, another indicator might be your unnerved passenger contemplating
exiting the airplane before landing, but that's one of those
seat-of-your-pants indicators that should be avoided.
The plane will still keep flying--you want it to. You REALLY don't want
that airflow boundary layer to separate from the wing. But if your normal
rate of descent at a given airspeed and power confuration is, say, 500 fpm,
in a slip the airspeed will be about the same but your rate of descent would
indicate maybe 1000 fpm. (These numbers are just for example and not
reflective of any particular aircraft.)
> I presume that if I do it correctly, then, there should be no change
> in the actual direction of motion of the aircraft, but only a change
> in its orientation in the air, right? I haven't achieved that thus
> far.
Correct. In the slip, the airplane will seem to have one wing pointed
forward and tipped down. The pilot will keep the airplane ground track
aligned with the runway, but the nose will actually be a few degrees off of
center.
> So if I'm going straight in and I do a forward flip, I should be able
> to look off to the left out the window and see the runway approaching
> me
Yes. Probably somewhere around 11 o'clock to the nose.
-c
Mxsmanic
> Maybe you should start.
I've seen what it does to other people. I think I'll pass. I'm not
into drugs.
Mxsmanic
> Obviously, this newsgroup does have a high concentration of people
> knowledgeable about piloting.
That is not obvious at all, unfortunately. It has a high
concentration of children overdosed on testosterone, like all of
cyberspace, but knowledgeable people are thin on the ground.
Mxsmanic
> And you might if you took the path that Ramapriya has in this group.
I don't do initiations or hazings.
A Lieberma
news:2khik21vh8503a48e...@4ax.com:
> That is not obvious at all, unfortunately. It has a high
> concentration of children overdosed on testosterone,
As usual WRONG AGAIN. Do your research. Dayem, I will even help you this
time.
http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:Children&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Allen
A Lieberma
news:Xns986EC5C4CEADB...@216.77.188.18:
> http://www.google.com/search?
> hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:Children&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=titl
> e
Link should be......
Viperdoc
France. However, a snap roll is obviously more than a roll that occurs
suddenly. A few minutes with a search engine would prove more beneficial
than wasting a lot of bandwidth on the newsgroup.
randall g
>A Lieberma writes:
>
>> Then look up your questions on the internet, and if you have questions,
>> then post your question with the reference you looked up.
>>
>> Then you can say you are trying to learn....
>
>I had hoped that this newsgroup would have a high concentration of
>people knowledgeable about piloting, but it appears that I may have
>been excessively optimistic.
You were excessively optimistic if you thought nobody would be bothered
by you, however you do get plenty of good responses and you know it. I
don't want to hear YOUR whining on top of the others!
randall g =%^)> PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca
Wizard of Draws
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wizard of Draws writes:
>
>> Ahhh, the dreaded "Blue Screen of Death".
>
> I meant an impact with terrain.
Place a few fluffy pillows around your chair and you'll be fine.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic
http://www.cartoonclipart.com
A Lieberma
news:C16EB96E.A3B28%jeff.bucc...@DELETEgmail.com:
> On 10/31/06 11:41 PM, in article
> 4c9gk29oq4qdsifr1...@4ax.com, "Mxsmanic"
> <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wizard of Draws writes:
>>
>>> Ahhh, the dreaded "Blue Screen of Death".
>>
>> I meant an impact with terrain.
>
> Place a few fluffy pillows around your chair and you'll be fine.
I needed this :-)))
Cleared my sinuses big time with my Doc Pepper diverted from my belly!
Allen
Ron Wanttaja
> I presume that if I do it correctly, then, there should be no change
> in the actual direction of motion of the aircraft, but only a change
> in its orientation in the air, right? I haven't achieved that thus
> far.
>
> So if I'm going straight in and I do a forward flip, I should be able
> to look off to the left out the window and see the runway approaching
> me (or to the right, although that might be harder from the left
> seat).... [Ref. the video]... I gather that you were actually looking
> sideways down at the runway, and not in the direction the axle-mounted
> camera was looking?
Yep. Here's another video that should answer most of the above questions:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip3.wmv
Note that the aircraft attitude stays fairly flat. The tail mounting of the
camera does exaggerate the amount of offset, as you can see that my head doesn't
have to move all that much to keep tracking the touchdown point.
> > The Fly Baby model on MSFS can't, but I always figured that was
> > my fault. :-)
>
> Or you had automatic rudder coordination turned on (it's the default).
Considering I designed the Fly Baby MSFS model, it's my fault either way. :-)
Actually, the problem is more the limited throw of the yaw control. The Fly
Baby has a very powerful rudder, but the pedals have a fairly long travel. That
makes it easy to input the precise amount of yaw. On the computer, the stick
only wiggles ~10 degrees left and right. I can run the rudder scalars up on the
MSFS config file, but then the rudder control gets too sensitive for normal
operations. Even a set of rudder pedals (older Thrustmasters) didn't give
enough control throw.
BTW, for those who are interested in seeing the complete videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubDOG4E_pXs#GU5U2spHI_4
...uses the external camera positions and
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-9-23-Fly-Baby-N500F.wmv
has the shots from the ground plus a little air-to-air. As a side note, look
how much the rudder moves to keep the plane tracking straight as the tail
touches down. Would require some SERIOUS wriggling on a computer control
stick....
Ron Wanttaja
Mxsmanic
> You were excessively optimistic if you thought nobody would be bothered
> by you ...
A great many people are bothered enough to clutter the newsgroup with
useless traffic.
> ... however you do get plenty of good responses and you know it.
I don't know about plenty, but I do get a few, which is why I stay.
Mxsmanic
> Yep. Here's another video that should answer most of the above questions:
>
> http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip3.wmv
Very cool. Your aircraft must be awash in cameras.
It does make it much more clear.
> Considering I designed the Fly Baby MSFS model, it's my fault either way. :-)
If you say so. I don't know how the models are implemented
internally.
> Actually, the problem is more the limited throw of the yaw control. The Fly
> Baby has a very powerful rudder, but the pedals have a fairly long travel. That
> makes it easy to input the precise amount of yaw. On the computer, the stick
> only wiggles ~10 degrees left and right. I can run the rudder scalars up on the
> MSFS config file, but then the rudder control gets too sensitive for normal
> operations. Even a set of rudder pedals (older Thrustmasters) didn't give
> enough control throw.
The twist rudder on the throttle is definitely a problem with any
aircraft. But it's better than the keyboard.
> Would require some SERIOUS wriggling on a computer control
> stick....
All rudder movements are difficult with a twisting joystick.
Ron Wanttaja
> Ron Wanttaja writes:
>
> > Yep. Here's another video that should answer most of the above questions:
> >
> > http://www.bowersflybaby.com/slip3.wmv
>
> Very cool. Your aircraft must be awash in cameras.
No, just one cheap camera installed in different places on different flights.
It's apparent on the longer versions of the video, as while all three weekends I
shot video were sunny, the Saturday when the camera was mounted on the rudder
was fairly hazy and the other two days weren't.
The whole tale is at...
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/video.html
Ron Wanttaja
swag
included descriptions of cheated snaps, unloaded snaps, etc. I never
had any concept of any of this and frankly don't ever really want to
try to experience any of it in a full size plane, aerobatic or not.
http://www.rccaraction.com/MA/how_to/snap_roll.asp
Mxsmanic wrote:
> Viperdoc writes:
>
> > The other thing to remember is that the cross controlled condition in a
> > forward slip is a perfect setup for entry into an inverted spin or an
> > outside snap roll, which can be particularly impressive on short final in a
> > Cherokee.
>
> Okay, just out of curiosity, what do I have to do to enter the
> inverted spin or snap roll?
>
> And what is a snap roll, anyway?
Dan_Thom...@yahoo.com
Michael Houghton wrote:
> Howdy!
>
> In article <q92gk213d8msu19no...@4ax.com>,
> Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >gatt writes:
> >
> >> Executing a forward slip, for its most basic flight-sim-type purposes,
> >> involves lowering one wing with the aileron and using opposite rudder to
> >> keep the aircraft oriented; it can be dangerous at slow speeds because the
> >> crossed controls create a perfect condition for spin entry on a stall during
> >> short final.
>
> That statement is just flat incorrect. It's the skidding turn that
> creates the dangerous condition. Crossed controls are not, per se,
> risky. They merely set up a way to dump altitude without picking
> up excess speed, or to make the airplane fly somewhat sideways, in
> order to maintain alignment with a ground feature in a crosswind.
> >
> >I worry that it might somehow lead me into danger, but some of the
> >stuff I've read claims that slips are very unlikely to produce stalls,
> >unlike skids, which supposedly are known for that. The FAA book even
> >claims that some aircraft have better stall behavior in a slip, if I
> >understand it correctly.
>
> That's a pretty reasonably synopsis. Slips are less likely to degenerate
> into a spin, while skids are much more risky.
>
> In a skid, you are (ab-)using the rudder to try to yaw the plane more
> quickly than you can with the coordinated turn you were in. That causes
> outside wing to move faster (and the inside wing slower). If you get
> too vigorous, you might slow the inside wing enough to induce a stall.
> That causes the inside wing to drop rapidly, leading quickly to a
> spin. This is Real Bad if you were trying to hurry that base to final
> turn that you got a bit sloppy with...
The inside wing has a higher angle of attack than the
outside wing in a descending turn, and skidding increases that
difference to the point that a stall could become a spin instantly. The
speed difference between wings is minimal. The AOA difference is
dependent on the angle of descent, radius of turn, and the amount of
opposite aileron applied. In the slip, the difference in AOA decreases,
making it a much safer maneuver than it appears to the uninitiated.
I built a special table with several sets of parallel rails
representing the various phases of flight, and a model airplane's wings
set on the rails shows the AOA differences and makes it all really
clear to my students.
Dan