Requirments to be a CFI
Hornet9999
PPL, IFR, Commercial, and what else??? How do most people afford to do all
this. Another thing whats the difference between CFI CFII CFIII. Thanks in
advance
Nathan
Southern California
"401 Hornet Ball 3.5"
Patrick
your
> PPL, IFR, Commercial, and what else??? How do most people afford to do
all
> this. Another thing whats the difference between CFI CFII CFIII. Thanks
in
> advance
As with all pilot ratings, you need to take a written test and a checkride -
from the flying side, you basically have to learn to pilot the aircraft from
the right seat instead the left one, another big point is the teaching part.
The DE wants to see whether you can teach people or not, if you can detect
student's proficiency lacks and take corrective action.
Your first checkride is for the CFI (certified flight instructor). After
that, you can teach people up to the private pilot level. Then you do
another checkride for your CFII (the second I is for "instrument"). You can
teach for instrument ratings. There is no CFIII - just an MEI (multi engine
instructor) and a MEII (which I guess you can figure out by yourself *gg*)
Mike Reichfeld
An applicant gets his CFI. With this certificate he can instruct PVT, COMM (not
the instruments parts), ATP applicants (since no recommandation is required for
ATP practical), and another CFI applicant after he (the instructor) held the
certificate for at least 24 months). Also gives BFR to any pilot, at all levels.
Then, if that person gets his MEI his CFI certificate is endorsed for ME (VFR
only is NOT placed on a CFI certificate). When he gets his CFII in a SE
aircraft, his CFI certificate is only endorsed with 'Instrument' (not SE only),
so that CFI can teach instrumnets is BOTH SE & ME that he qualifies.
Am I correct with the above assumptions ??
seeya..Mike..
Patrick
COMM (not
> the instruments parts), ATP applicants (since no recommandation is
required for
> ATP practical), and another CFI applicant after he (the instructor) held
the
> certificate for at least 24 months). Also gives BFR to any pilot, at all
levels.
Not correct. How would a CFI talk to you on a BFR about instrument
approaches? Or fly them in the air? Or show multi engine manoeuvers? Sure,
there are some things above the private pilot level a CFI could do, but no
ATP pilot would take on a CFI for a BFR. Also, most pilots who aim for the
commercial rating already have their IR - so they take a CFII for their
commercial rating.
> Then, if that person gets his MEI his CFI certificate is endorsed for ME
(VFR
> only is NOT placed on a CFI certificate). When he gets his CFII in a SE
> aircraft, his CFI certificate is only endorsed with 'Instrument' (not SE
only),
> so that CFI can teach instrumnets is BOTH SE & ME that he qualifies.
MEI or CFII are not endorsements - they are separate RATINGS with tests and
checkrides. So there's nothing like "VFR only" or "instrument" endorsements.
Either you have a CFI rating, OR a CFII, OR a MEI. CFI is ALWAYS the initial
stage, then CFII (mostly), but you COULD also do the MEI first if you want
to get multiengine hours. Not a very common way though, as many pilots who
want to get their multiengine VFR and IFR.
macho...@nosoup4u.net
wrote:
CFI is NOT always the initial stage.
You can begin with a CFII if you wish.
>
Joe Norris
> Or fly them in the air? Or show multi engine manoeuvers?
Easy. As the CFI is instrument rated, even though not a CFII, he/she will
have plenty of understanding of the instrument environment and can give a
thorough flight review to any pilot. Remember, the CFI *does* give a
certain amount of instrument training to applicants during the course of
instruction (check out the PPL PTS for example), so the concepts are not
foreign.
> but no ATP pilot would take on a CFI for a BFR.
Happens all the time, my friend. Happens all the time.
Joe Norris
MACKLIN
teach and endorse for the rating).
"Patrick" <pat...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:39a90...@news.arcor-ip.de...
> > Hello everyone I was wondering what it takes to be a CFI. I know you
need
> your
> > PPL, IFR, Commercial, and what else??? How do most people afford to do
> all
> > this. Another thing whats the difference between CFI CFII CFIII.
Thanks
> in
> > advance
>
Mark Kolber
>Also gives BFR to any pilot, at all
>levels.
>
>Not correct. How would a CFI talk to you on a BFR about instrument
>approaches? Or fly them in the air?
Not a problem. A base CFI can give instrument training. Just can't
give instrument training that counts toward the instrument rating or
give an instrument endorsement (like and ICC). In the BFR example, I
will always do some instrument work. If it's a private pilot, I'll try
to see if he's up to snuff on the PTS standards. That's a bit too easy
for instrument rated pilots, so I will often have an instrument-rated
pilot do an approach or a hold.
Of course, my sign-off is for a BFR, not an instrument competency
check, which I can't give. But she gets a chance to log an approach
toward currency and I get sat something (if necessary) like, "You
know, I realize you're instrument current, but I think you really
ought to go up with an II and do some work.
§ 61.193 Flight instructor privileges.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized
within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate
and ratings to **give training and endorsements that are required for,
and relate to**:
(f) An instrument rating;
(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience
requirement of this part;
61.195
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument
flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type
rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her
flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is
appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument
training is being provided.
=======================================
______|______ Mark Kolber
\(o)/ Denver, Colorado
o O o www.midlifeflight.com
=======================================
email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber"
Patrick
asked in the first place... but, of course, you're right
Mike Reichfeld
Joe Norris wrote:
> > How would a CFI talk to you on a BFR about instrument approaches?
> > Or fly them in the air? Or show multi engine manoeuvers?
>
> Easy. As the CFI is instrument rated, even though not a CFII, he/she will
> have plenty of understanding of the instrument environment and can give a
> thorough flight review to any pilot. Remember, the CFI *does* give a
> certain amount of instrument training to applicants during the course of
> instruction (check out the PPL PTS for example), so the concepts are not
> foreign.
>
> > but no ATP pilot would take on a CFI for a BFR.
>
> Happens all the time, my friend. Happens all the time.
>
> Joe Norris
And I'll second that.. Happens all the time and more. An ATP applicant who
already meet all the requirements for the practical ATP test, including having
a lot of instrument time in heavy aircrafts for example, but have not flown a
particular A/C that is going to be used for the ride. So the applicant fly
that A/C with a CFI (no CFII) who is qualified on that A/C just to get
familiar with it, and take the ride. No recommandations or sign off required.
A lot of folks are getting SE ATP just to get the ATP on the application and
to make sure that the written will not expire.
seeya..Mike..
Mike Reichfeld
macho...@nosoup4u.net wrote:
> CFI is ALWAYS the initial
> >stage, then CFII (mostly), but you COULD also do the MEI first if you want
> >to get multiengine hours. Not a very common way though, as many pilots who
> >want to get their multiengine VFR and IFR.
> >
> CFI is NOT always the initial stage.
>
> You can begin with a CFII if you wish.
> >
One certainly can obtain CFII first.
seeya ..Mike..
Mike Reichfeld
macho...@nosoup4u.net wrote:
> . CFI is ALWAYS the initial
> >stage, then CFII (mostly), but you COULD also do the MEI first if you want
> >to get multiengine hours. Not a very common way though, as many pilots who
> >want to get their multiengine VFR and IFR.
> >
> CFI is NOT always the initial stage.
>
> You can begin with a CFII if you wish.
> >
I already agreed that CFI is not always the initial CFI ticket. So lets expand a
bit. A person has NO CFI ticket what so ever. Not a flight instructor. Just
Commercial & Inst ME Land. Not even a SE class rating. Money is not an issue,
(last name is Rockefeler, Kennedy or the like), so the person decided to be an
'odd ball' in the field and obtain a CFII on ME aircraft. Take the CFII and FOI
writtens. Get proficient and is recommended by his CFII to take the practical
test. Ace it, and obtain the certificate. Now..to the beef..CFI is the 'Grade'
of the certificate. CFI has ratings on it - ASE or AME (or both) or
Instruments (NOT even a reference to Land or Sea). The Instruments on a CFI does
NOT apply to the SE or ME. So the person now will have a CFI with only one rating
on it 'Instruments'. No SE or ME rating since no CFI ride was taken yet. What
could he teach on - flying broom ?? Will that person get a ME on his fresh CFI
ticket - how could he, no 'Flight Instructor - Airplane' written taken or
presented for the ride. But the CFII portion - passed on ME.
Any thoughts ???
Before anyone is ready to jump and and shoot me down - let me say that IMHO the
above chain of events could happens - or I'm wrong. Let me also say that I
already have CFII (for over 25 years now), I'm not a DE (use to be one some 20
years ago but gave it up long ago), and this is not a 'try to beat the system'
exercise. Just an interesting thought.
seeya..Mike..
Bob Gardner
ATP. In fact, I had my ATP before there was such a thing as a BFR.
Bob Gardner
Patrick wrote:
> > An applicant gets his CFI. With this certificate he can instruct PVT,
> COMM (not
> > the instruments parts), ATP applicants (since no recommandation is
> required for
> > ATP practical), and another CFI applicant after he (the instructor) held
> the
> > certificate for at least 24 months). Also gives BFR to any pilot, at all
> levels.
>
> Not correct. How would a CFI talk to you on a BFR about instrument
> approaches? Or fly them in the air? Or show multi engine manoeuvers? Sure,
> there are some things above the private pilot level a CFI could do, but no
> ATP pilot would take on a CFI for a BFR. Also, most pilots who aim for the
> commercial rating already have their IR - so they take a CFII for their
> commercial rating.
>
> > Then, if that person gets his MEI his CFI certificate is endorsed for ME
> (VFR
> > only is NOT placed on a CFI certificate). When he gets his CFII in a SE
> > aircraft, his CFI certificate is only endorsed with 'Instrument' (not SE
> only),
> > so that CFI can teach instrumnets is BOTH SE & ME that he qualifies.
>
> MEI or CFII are not endorsements - they are separate RATINGS with tests and
> checkrides. So there's nothing like "VFR only" or "instrument" endorsements.
> Either you have a CFI rating, OR a CFII, OR a MEI. CFI is ALWAYS the initial
JH_Pilot
instructor) can give instrument training; he/she already does that in prep
for the private practical test. For the instrument rating, only 15 hrs. has
to come from an instrument
instructor (what we normally call a CFII). The rest of the hours for the
instrument rating can come from a CFI or even by just having a safety pilot
on board.
The local FSDO makes such a point of this here that they have failed initial
CFI
applicants for not knowing this on the checkride.
> >Not correct. How would a CFI talk to you on a BFR about instrument
> >approaches? Or fly them in the air?
>
James Wilkinson
qualification. Ratings on the certificates authorize certain operations. The
holder of a flight instructor certificate is allowed to teach. WHAT he is
allowed to teach is determined by the ratings. An Instrument Airplane rating
on a flight instructor certificate authorizes the holder to teach the flight
skills and ground knowledge necessary for the initial issuance of an
instrument rating and the biennial flight review in any airplane he is
authorized to fly based on the PILOT certificate held. The holder of a
flight instructor certificate with Instrument Airplane rating may NOT
conduct instrument flight or ground instruction in a helicopter.
Though the "normal" sequence is ASEL, IA, AMEL, training and testing for
flight instructor certification can be accomplished in any order. And it
happens with regularity, though it certainly isn't the norm yet.
"Mike Reichfeld" <air...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39A98CD3...@home.com...
>
>
> macho...@nosoup4u.net wrote:
>
> > . CFI is ALWAYS the initial
> > >stage, then CFII (mostly), but you COULD also do the MEI first if you
want
> > >to get multiengine hours. Not a very common way though, as many pilots
who
> > >want to get their multiengine VFR and IFR.
> > >
Mike Reichfeld
James Wilkinson wrote:
> Pilot certificates don't have "grades." The certificate itself determines
> qualification. Ratings on the certificates authorize certain operations. The
> holder of a flight instructor certificate is allowed to teach. WHAT he is
> allowed to teach is determined by the ratings. An Instrument Airplane rating
> on a flight instructor certificate authorizes the holder to teach the flight
> skills and ground knowledge necessary for the initial issuance of an
> instrument rating and the biennial flight review in any airplane he is
> authorized to fly based on the PILOT certificate held. The holder of a
> flight instructor certificate with Instrument Airplane rating may NOT
> conduct instrument flight or ground instruction in a helicopter.
>
> Though the "normal" sequence is ASEL, IA, AMEL, training and testing for
> flight instructor certification can be accomplished in any order. And it
> happens with regularity, though it certainly isn't the norm yet.
>
Thanks Jim..
If I read you correct, The holder of a CFI certificate, with only one rating,
Instrument Airplane, could give instruction on either SE or ME aircraft,
provide that CFI hold SE or ME on his Comm. certificate. If the instruction is
to be given on a ME aircraft, does the applicant for an Instrument rating need
to have ME rating on his license ? Could an applicant without ME rating recieve
instrument instruction in a ME aircraft, for the purpose of getting an
instrument rating, (with the intend to take the Inst. ride in a SE aircraft, but
do some training in a ME), from an instructor who hold ME rating on his PILOT
license but NOT on his CFI certificate. ?
I understand that the normal progression is as you stated, but I'm puzzeled by
the possibility that a CFI with only 'Instrument - Airplane' could give
instruction (even if only instrument instruction) in a ME aircraft based on his
ME rating on the PILOT certificate, never being 'tested' as a CFI in a ME.
seeya..Mike..
Ron Natalie
James Wilkinson wrote:
>
> Pilot certificates don't have "grades."
There are types of certificates (Student Pilot, Recreational Pilot, Private Pilot,
Commercial Pilot, ATP, Flight Instructor, ...).
> An Instrument Airplane rating
> on a flight instructor certificate authorizes the holder to teach the flight
> skills and ground knowledge necessary for the initial issuance of an
> instrument rating and the biennial flight review in any airplane he is
> authorized to fly based on the PILOT certificate held. The holder of a
> flight instructor certificate with Instrument Airplane rating may NOT
> conduct instrument flight or ground instruction in a helicopter.
>
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but in addition to the
instrument rating, the instructor needs the appropriate category/class
ratings on his instructor (not just pilot) certificate. The category/class ratings on
the flight instructor certificate are Airplane-Single Engine, Airplane-Multi
Engine, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Rotorcraft-gyroplane, Powered Lift, and Glider.
61.195 is pretty clear unless you want to argue that "instrument flight training"
is not a subset of "flight training."
Mike Reichfeld
Ron Natalie wrote:
And this is my point also. It was said in the thread that the order of ratings which a CFI
can be obtained with (ie. can hold 'Instrument - Airplane') as the initial certificate (ie.
passing the CFII check before any other check) is allowed, not commonly done, but
possible. My point is that it is does not make sense, and not possible. One must have a
Category and Class rating on a CFI certificate, before can add a 'Instrument-Airplane' to
it. And that category and class on the CFI certificate control the class that instruction
can be given on, not the class held on the CFI's Commercial certificate.
The only exception to that logic is, the class rating on one's commercial has to do when
instruction is to be given in LAND or SEA. A CFI with ASEL on his commercial, and
Airplane- Single Engine on his CFI, can NOT give instruction in ASES, even if the applican
is holding ASES category. The Land - Sea category is controlled by the rating as defined
on one's commercial certificate, since none is given on a CFI certificate.
Do I make sense, or I lost it myself ???
seeya..Mike..
Ron Natalie
> And this is my point also. It was said in the thread that the order of ratings which a CFI
> can be obtained with (ie. can hold 'Instrument - Airplane') as the initial certificate (ie.
> passing the CFII check before any other check) is allowed, not commonly done, but
> possible. My point is that it is does not make sense, and not possible. One must have a
> Category and Class rating on a CFI certificate, before can add a 'Instrument-Airplane' to
> it. And that category and class on the CFI certificate control the class that instruction
> can be given on, not the class held on the CFI's Commercial certificate.
The main reason I've heard it done is that:
1. It can be scheduled with a DE.
2. It's an easier ride than the CFI-AIRPLANE-SE ride.
Mike Reichfeld
Ron Natalie wrote:
I don't understand the 'Can be schedule with a DE' issue. Are u saying that a DE could issue the
Instrument-Airplane rating on a CFI and not the CFI-AIRPLANE-SE ? Most DE's can not issue the
initial CFI certificate. Very few can. If it is an INITIAL CFI certificate for an applicant, then
the DE has to be authorized for initial CFI issue, otherwise, regardless of the rating sought, SE
ME or II as an initial certificate can not be done.
I agree it is an easier ride, but the point is, "Can a CFI certificate be issued with out any
reference to a CLASS rating". Upon completion of the Instrument-Airplane ride, an applicand is
issued the Insrtument authority, but still have no authority to "Instruct, Teach, call it
whatever", on any CLASS, (ie. SE or ME), since no such rating is on his CFI certificate.
seeya..Mike..
Joe Norris
<flyin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8of1sm$kv9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
> 61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
Sorry, but you've missed the boat here. 49 CFR Part 61.109 (a)(3) says:
"3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and
maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including
straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a
heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and
the use of navigation systems/facilities and rader services appropriate to
instrument flight;"
This training can be and is given by a CFI. Of course it can be given by a
CFII if that person happens to be giving primary flight instruction, but a
"plain old" CFI will do nicely.
A CFI also regularly gives "hood" time to pilots during flight reviews and
dual flights being used toward "Wings" program awards, so there are quite a
few times when CFIs can and do give instrument instruction. They just can't
give instrument instruction specifically for meeting minimum training
requirements of an instrument rating. THAT'S the realm of the "double I".
Joe Norris
JH_Pilot
Let me rephrase---a CFI can and does give 'flight training...
by reference to instruments.' A CFII is authorized to give
'instrument training.'
I know that there is a difference in verbage, but the result is still
the same. Only 15 hrs has to come from a CFII for the instrument
rating. And, if a person only does 3 hrs. 'flight soley by reference to
instruments'
with a CFI for the private, that 3 hrs. of time still counts towards the
instrument
rating.
> Well, just to stir the pot a little more, a CFI (one who doesn't
> have the instrument airplane instructor) can not give instrument
> training. Instrument training is define in 61.1 as
>
he/she can if he/she holds a IGI certificate and uses an approved simulator.
:)
> (10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training
> is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulate
> instrument conditions.
>
> And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
> 61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
>
> I would also disagree that a flight instructor certificate authorizes
> the holder to teach. A flight instructor certificate authorizes the
> holder to give training and endorsements (61.193). As is pointed out
> regularly on this newsgroup,
>teaching does not require any certificate.
>
It does in our public schools....
> Just having fun with the regs... (smile)
Yep, ain't it fun!
>
> Hobbes
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
flyin...@my-deja.com
"JH_Pilot" <jke...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:
> Not to stir the pot, but a CFI (one who doesn't have the instrument
> airplane instructor) can give instrument training; he/she already
> does that in prep for the private practical test.
Well, just to stir the pot a little more, a CFI (one who doesn't
have the instrument airplane instructor) can not give instrument
training. Instrument training is define in 61.1 as
(10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training
is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulate
instrument conditions.
And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
I would also disagree that a flight instructor certificate authorizes
the holder to teach. A flight instructor certificate authorizes the
holder to give training and endorsements (61.193). As is pointed out
regularly on this newsgroup, teaching does not require any
certificate.
Just having fun with the regs... (smile)
Hobbes
Bob Moore
> "JH_Pilot" <jke...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Not to stir the pot, but a CFI (one who doesn't have the instrument
>> airplane instructor) can give instrument training; he/she already
>> does that in prep for the private practical test.
>
>Well, just to stir the pot a little more, a CFI (one who doesn't
>have the instrument airplane instructor) can not give instrument
>training. Instrument training is define in 61.1 as
>
>(10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training
>is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulate
>instrument conditions.
>
>And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
>61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
Wordmanship....... there is a difference (says the FAA) between
1. Instrument training......and
2. Flight Training in the Control and Maneuvering of an airplane solely
by reference to instruments.
A CFII is required for situation number 1 while a CFIA may conduct
the training required in situation number2.
FAR 61.109 requires situation number 2, but if given by a CFII and is
conducted in IMC or a view limiting device is used, it can also count
as situation number 1.
Bob Moore
ATP CFI (Airplanes Single Engine and Instrument Airplane)
macho...@nosoup4u.net
wrote:
>
>
>Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> James Wilkinson wrote:
>> >
>> > Pilot certificates don't have "grades."
>>
>> There are types of certificates (Student Pilot, Recreational Pilot, Private Pilot,
>> Commercial Pilot, ATP, Flight Instructor, ...).
>>
>> > An Instrument Airplane rating
>> > on a flight instructor certificate authorizes the holder to teach the flight
>> > skills and ground knowledge necessary for the initial issuance of an
>> > instrument rating and the biennial flight review in any airplane he is
>> > authorized to fly based on the PILOT certificate held. The holder of a
>> > flight instructor certificate with Instrument Airplane rating may NOT
>> > conduct instrument flight or ground instruction in a helicopter.
>> >
>>
>> I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but in addition to the
>> instrument rating, the instructor needs the appropriate category/class
>> ratings on his instructor (not just pilot) certificate. The category/class ratings on
>> the flight instructor certificate are Airplane-Single Engine, Airplane-Multi
>> Engine, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Rotorcraft-gyroplane, Powered Lift, and Glider.
>>
>> 61.195 is pretty clear unless you want to argue that "instrument flight training"
>> is not a subset of "flight training."
>
>And this is my point also. It was said in the thread that the order of ratings which a CFI
>can be obtained with (ie. can hold 'Instrument - Airplane') as the initial certificate (ie.
>passing the CFII check before any other check) is allowed, not commonly done, but
>possible. My point is that it is does not make sense, and not possible. One must have a
>Category and Class rating on a CFI certificate, before can add a 'Instrument-Airplane' to
>it. And that category and class on the CFI certificate control the class that instruction
>can be given on, not the class held on the CFI's Commercial certificate.
>
This part just is not true.
You can have "instrument airplane" on your instructors certificate
with no other notation. Allows you to sign off instrument instruction
in an airplane. You may not sign off flight instruction.
macho...@nosoup4u.net
wrote:
>
>
>Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> > And this is my point also. It was said in the thread that the order of ratings which a CFI
>> > can be obtained with (ie. can hold 'Instrument - Airplane') as the initial certificate (ie.
>> > passing the CFII check before any other check) is allowed, not commonly done, but
>> > possible. My point is that it is does not make sense, and not possible. One must have a
>> > Category and Class rating on a CFI certificate, before can add a 'Instrument-Airplane' to
>> > it. And that category and class on the CFI certificate control the class that instruction
>> > can be given on, not the class held on the CFI's Commercial certificate.
>>
>> The main reason I've heard it done is that:
>> 1. It can be scheduled with a DE.
>> 2. It's an easier ride than the CFI-AIRPLANE-SE ride.
>
>I don't understand the 'Can be schedule with a DE' issue. Are u saying that a DE could issue the
>Instrument-Airplane rating on a CFI and not the CFI-AIRPLANE-SE ? Most DE's can not issue the
>initial CFI certificate. Very few can. If it is an INITIAL CFI certificate for an applicant, then
>the DE has to be authorized for initial CFI issue, otherwise, regardless of the rating sought, SE
>ME or II as an initial certificate can not be done.
>
>I agree it is an easier ride, but the point is, "Can a CFI certificate be issued with out any
>reference to a CLASS rating". Upon completion of the Instrument-Airplane ride, an applicand is
>issued the Insrtument authority, but still have no authority to "Instruct, Teach, call it
>whatever", on any CLASS, (ie. SE or ME), since no such rating is on his CFI certificate.
>
>seeya..Mike..
>
>
The initial ride is always with the FAA. If you are doing the CFI-IA,
you need to go throught all the rigamarole of a simulated ground
session, q's and a's on fundamentals of instruction, lesson plans,
etc.
You could then get the CFI-Airplane with a DE. It would be an add-on
James Wilkinson
airplane rating may give the instruction -- ground and flight -- necessary
for the initial issuance of an instrument airplane additional rating in any
airplane the flight instructor is authorized to be PIC. The rationale is
this: the instructor is teaching INSTRUMENT flight only, which is not
airplane-specific, not AIRPLANE flight, which IS airplane-specific. For
example, if the instructor holds airplane single engine land rating on her
pilot certificate, she may do the instrument instruction in a single engine
airplane. She may NOT do the instruction in a multi-engine airplane since
she is not rated. However, things get a wee bit complicated here. The
instructor MAY give the instruction for an instrument competency check in an
airplane she's not rated to fly -- in this case a multi-engine airplane.
The holder of a flight instructor certificate with airplane single engine
may give instrument instruction, but may not recommend a student for the
instrument practical test nor may that instructor conduct the evaluation for
the instrument competency check.
The initial practical test for issuance of a flight instructor certificate
MAY be given my specially designated pilot examiners.
I will tell you the practical test given for the initial issuance of a
flight instructor certificate with something other than the airplane single
engine rating (NOTE: there is no "land" on a flight instructor certificate!)
will be considerably more difficult than one done in the "normal" way. The
Practical Test Standard requires certain things to be tested if the
applicant does not hold a flight instructor certifcate.
Whew. Aren't you glad you asked.
--Jim Wilkinson
> And this is my point also. It was said in the thread that the order of
ratings which a CFI
> can be obtained with (ie. can hold 'Instrument - Airplane') as the initial
certificate (ie.
> passing the CFII check before any other check) is allowed, not commonly
done, but
> possible. My point is that it is does not make sense, and not possible.
One must have a
> Category and Class rating on a CFI certificate, before can add a
'Instrument-Airplane' to
> it. And that category and class on the CFI certificate control the class
that instruction
> can be given on, not the class held on the CFI's Commercial certificate.
>
James Wilkinson
so-called FARs actually stand for Federal Acquisition Regulations. There's
no such thing as "Federal Aviation Regulations."
--Jim Wilkinson
"Joe Norris" <jnorri...@tznet.com> wrote in message
news:RMEq5.314188$t91.3...@news4.giganews.com...
>
> <flyin...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8of1sm$kv9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
> > 61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
>
> Sorry, but you've missed the boat here. 49 CFR part 61.109 (a)(3) says:
>
James Wilkinson
issued without a category/class rating. For the applicant we've been talking
about, successful completion of the practical test would result in the
original issuance of a flight instructor certificate under 49 CFR part
61.5(c) with instrument airplane rating under part 61.5(c)(4). The holder
would be authorized to conduct the training required for the initial
issuance of an instrument airplane rating in any airplane the instructor has
category/class on his commercial pilot or ATP certificate.
You are correct about the DPE authority. It comes from the local FSDO and is
rarely given. The FAA is still a bit uncomfortable "giving away" that
responsibility. But it IS done.
--Jim Wilkinson
"Mike Reichfeld" <air...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39AAD620...@home.com...
Bob Moore
>The holder of a flight instructor certificate with airplane single engine
>may give instrument instruction, but may not recommend a student for the
>instrument practical test nor may that instructor conduct the evaluation for
>the instrument competency check.
Is that "instrument instruction" OR "flight instruction on the control and
maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" ? :-)
I reference John Lynch's 14 CFR Part 61 Frequently Asked Questions.
John makes an important difference between the two.
Bob Moore
Joe Norris
"James Wilkinson" <james.m....@faa.gov> wrote in message
news:MdSq5.361$z4....@news.ou.edu...
> Joe, you win BIG points for the correct use of the CFR!
> Congratulations.
Thanks Jim, except I still managed to screw it up. I typed the wrong title
number in my original post. What we call the "Federal Air Regulations" are
actually in Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations. (I don't know how
my fingers managed to type 49 instead of 14!) So, the "official" title of
the part I was referring to is 14 CFR part 61.109(a)(3).
There, now I feel better!! <BG>
Joe Norris
Ron Natalie
James Wilkinson wrote:
>
> Joe, you win BIG points for the correct use of the CFR! Congratulations. The
> so-called FARs actually stand for Federal Acquisition Regulations. There's
> no such thing as "Federal Aviation Regulations."
>
Posh. The Federal Aviation Regulations are no more or less FAR than the
Federal Aquisition Regulations. Title 14 of the CFR, Chapter I, uses both the term
"Federal Aviation Regulations" and FAR to refer to itself. Title 48 uses
the term "Federal Acqusition Regulations and FAR" to refer to itself. The
actual name of Title 48 is Federal Acquisition Regulations SYSTEM [emphasis
added].
It's an unfortunate acronym clash.
Stan
"James Wilkinson" <james.m....@faa.gov> wrote in message
news:MdSq5.361$z4....@news.ou.edu...
> Joe, you win BIG points for the correct use of the CFR! Congratulations.
The
> so-called FARs actually stand for Federal Acquisition Regulations. There's
> no such thing as "Federal Aviation Regulations."
>
> --Jim Wilkinson
>
Well that's interesting, since the term "Federal Aviation Regulations" is
used in the CFR.
Example:
Sec. 13.7 Records, documents and reports.
Each record, document and report that the Federal Aviation Regulations
require to be maintained, exhibited or submitted to the Administrator may
be
used in any investigation conducted by the Administrator; and, except to
the
extent the use may be specifically limited or prohibited by the section
which
imposes the requirement, the records, documents and reports may be used in
any civil penalty action, certificate action, or other legal proceeding.
Also there are SFARs.
Stan
William W. Plummer
" Stan" <spre...@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:sqoa2nl...@corp.supernews.com...
Bob Moore
>I know that there is a difference in verbage, but the result is still
>the same. Only 15 hrs has to come from a CFII for the instrument
>rating. And, if a person only does 3 hrs. 'flight soley by reference to
>instruments' with a CFI for the private, that 3 hrs. of time still counts
>towards the instrument rating.
As I read the regulation and John Lynch's FAQ, the three hours is not
"flight solely by instruments" but rather flight training on the control and
maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments and does
not necessarily require the student to use a view limiting device. In this
case, the three hours would not toward the instrument rating.
I am copying three questions from the FAQ concerning this issue.
Bob Moore
ATP CFIA CFII
QUESTION 1: Ref. §61.109(a)(3); Please verify that under Part 61 the CFI must
have
his/her instrument rating (CFII) to teach the 3 hours of instrument training
required for private
pilot certificate. See below. I'm concerned that this might affect some 141
schools.
ANSWER 1: Ref. §61.193 and §61.109(a)(3); For years, the FAA has
differentiated
between the kind of training described in §61.109(a)(3) [i.e., “. . . 3 hours
of flight training in a
single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by
reference to
instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and
descents, turns to a
heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the
use of navigation
systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight. . .
”] and REAL
“instrument training.” Therefore, since no rule specifically conflicts with
the FAA’s long
standing policy on this issue, the FAA has always said a CFI-ASE can give the
3 hours of Private
Pilot flight training on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by
reference to
instruments [i.e., §61.109(a)(3)] because the training is not REAL “instrument
training.”
{q&a-283}
QUESTION 2: Can a Flight Instructor with an Airplane Single-Engine rating (but
no
Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI) provide a Private Pilot applicant with
the Flight Training
required by §61.107(b)(1)(ix) and §61.109(a)(3)? [i.e., the basic instrument
maneuvers and the 3
hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and
maneuvering of an airplane
solely by reference to instruments.]
ANSWER 2: Ref. §61.109(a)(3); Yes, a CFI with only an Airplane Single-Engine
rating
(but no Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI) may provide a Private
Pilot-ASEL applicant with
the flight training required by §61.107(b)(1)(ix) and §61.109(a)(3). And the
reason this answer is
so is because the aeronautical experience of §61.109(a)(3) does not state
“instrument training,”
but merely says:
“3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and
maneuvering of an
airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level
flight, constant airspeed
climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight
attitudes, radio
communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar
services appropriate to
instrument flight;”
However, that is for §61.109(a)(3) ONLY. Because if it’s for the Private Pilot
airplane single
engine training required by Part 141, Appendix B, paragraph 4.(b)(1)(iii),
[i.e., “. . . 3 hours ofinstrument training in a single engine airplane . .
”] So that training must be given by a CFI with
a ASE rating and an Instrument-Airplane rating on the flight instructor
certificate.
{q&a-249}
QUESTION: My recollection is that prior to new part 61, the old rule required
no
instrument time for private pilots. There was a requirement under old
61.107(a)(6) to provide
flight instruction in the control and maneuvering of an aircraft solely by
reference to instruments,
but since there was no aeronautical experience requirement for simulated
instrument time, it was
interpreted as not requiring actual or simulated instrument time.
New Part 61 requires 3 hours of flight training on the control and maneuvering
of an airplane
solely by reference to instruments. The wording is very similar to the old
rule, but it is contained
in 61.109, Aeronautical experience. We have been interpreting this as
requiring either hood
or actual instrument time. Is that correct, or could an applicant meet this
requirement
without having an actual or simulated instrument time in their logbook?
ANSWER: The aeronautical experience required by §61.109(a)(3) would NOT have
to
be in simulated or actual instrument conditions. Otherwise, the aeronautical
experience could be
achieved without the student wearing a view limiting device.
However, according to our policy on this aeronautical experience, if a student
were to perform
the training with a hood or conduct the flight in actual instrument conditions
and the training was
certified by a CFII (i.e., CFII instrument-airplane) then the time would count
as instrument
training and could also be used to meet the aeronautical experience of
§61.65(d)
flyin...@my-deja.com
No, just having some good-natured fun with Title 14 Code of Federal
Regulations (aka Federal Aviation Regulations -FARS). (smile)
>
> I know that there is a difference in verbage, but the result is still
> the same. Only 15 hrs has to come from a CFII for the instrument
> rating. And, if a person only does 3 hrs. 'flight soley by reference
to
> instruments'
> with a CFI for the private, that 3 hrs. of time still counts towards
the
> instrument
> rating.
>
All of the simulated instrument time done with a CFI counts toward
the instrument rating. The question is does it count towards the 15
hours of instrument flight training? So, in the example you give, does
it matter who gave the 3 hrs for the private for how we count it?
>
> > Well, just to stir the pot a little more, a CFI (one who doesn't
> > have the instrument airplane instructor) can not give instrument
> > training. Instrument training is define in 61.1 as
> >
>
> he/she can if he/she holds a IGI certificate and uses an approved
simulator.
> :)
True, but what if the CFI holds an AGI and no IGI, can he/she give
instrument training? (Opening up a whole other can of worms...) (smile)
>
> > (10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument
training
> > is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulate
> > instrument conditions.
> >
> > And, there is no requirement for any instrument training under part
> > 61.109 aeronautical experience for a private pilot.
> >
> > I would also disagree that a flight instructor certificate
authorizes
> > the holder to teach. A flight instructor certificate authorizes the
> > holder to give training and endorsements (61.193). As is pointed
out
> > regularly on this newsgroup,
>
> >teaching does not require any certificate.
> >
>
> It does in our public schools....
Actually, it depends on the state.
>
> > Just having fun with the regs... (smile)
>
> Yep, ain't it fun!
Exactly. I was trying to point out that some arguments about the Title
14 CFRs are pointless. It really doesn't matter whether we call it a
license or a certificate, FARs or Title 14 CFR.
James Wilkinson
MReichfeld
to see any restrictions put upon anyone, and I except your explanation. Some
time the legal world does not make sense in the practical world, but that's the
only world we have.
To me, it does not make sense, but legaly allowed (as u pointed out), for a NON
ME rated instructor (no ME on either pilot or CFI certificate) to give
'instruction' in ME aircraft - as u pointed out giving 'instruction for
instrunebt competency" is legal, therefore allowed.
I'm kind of doubtfull that in the real world however, of any orgenized flight
training facility, u will find such a case, if only for insurance reasons.
However, in the 'Open field', freelance, it may be the case, since, as u
pointed out, it is legal.
Thanks again for the clarifications.
seeya..Mike..
JHKeahey
> As I read the regulation and John Lynch's FAQ, the three hours is not
> "flight solely by instruments" but rather flight training on the control
and
> maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments and does
> not necessarily require the student to use a view limiting device. In
this
> case, the three hours would not toward the instrument rating.
>
Thank you for providing Lynch's answers to the questions.
I never said that the 3 hrs would count toward the instrument training that
the CFII would have to give (the 15 hrs requirement.) I stated that if a
CFI
gives flight training by reference to instruments (and I should have added,
if
the student is wearing a hood ((simulated))...then those three hours count
towards the total 40 hours required.
JHKeahey
>
> All of the simulated instrument time done with a CFI counts toward
> the instrument rating. The question is does it count towards the 15
> hours of instrument flight training? So, in the example you give, does
> it matter who gave the 3 hrs for the private for how we count it?
>
No. It doesn't count towards the 15 hrs instrument flight training.
> >
> > It does in our public schools....
>
> Actually, it depends on the state.
>
Sorry. I can't think of a state that at least doesn't require some level of
a certificate to teach in a public school. (elem, high school ,etc.)
> Exactly. I was trying to point out that some arguments about the Title
> 14 CFRs are pointless. It really doesn't matter whether we call it a
> license or a certificate, FARs or Title 14 CFR.
>
> Hobbes
>
Nope.
Mark Kolber
>You are correct. I cannot explain the conflict.
What conflict?
=======================================
______|______ Mark Kolber
\(o)/ Denver, Colorado
o O o www.midlifeflight.com
=======================================
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