What does TSO'd mean?
Bernie Hirsch
I've seen this term all over when shopping for avionics. What does the term
stand for and what is it's significance? Please email response.
Stuart Law
Bernie Hirsch <hir...@iquest.net> wrote in article
<DxqvB...@iquest.net>...
> "What does TSO'd mean? I've seen this term all over when
shopping for
> avionics. What does the term stand for and what is it's
significance.
TSO stands for Technical Standard Order. It indicates that the
product complies
with a detailed "cookbook" of requirements for that type of
product and that the
manufacturer's processes for manufacture are acceptable to the
FAA. The TSO
specifications are usually written by standards societies such
as SAE or RTCA
using both industry and government personnel. These are often
published as a
separate document and included in the TSO by reference.
The significance of TSO is that the product is accepted as
AIRWORTHY by the
FAA without requiring any further approval. Installation on
your airplane still must
show that it performs its function and poses no problem to
other systems, but this
is a small task compared to proving overall Airwothiness.
Bottom Line: If you intend to operate an Airworthy (ie legal)
airplane in the Normal
Utility, or Aerobatic categories, you will need to buy TSO
versions of equipment
if you just want to do a normal install. The other versions
would require analysis and
test to obtain a Supplemental Type Certificate for
installation. The market for Non-TSO
equipment is Experimental airplanes where approval is not
required.
Bernie Hirsch
In article <DxqvB...@iquest.net>, hir...@iquest.net (Bernie Hirsch) wrote:
>I've seen this term all over when shopping for avionics. What does the term
Rod Farlee
Stuart Law wrote:
> TSO stands for Technical Standard Order.
This is correct, but the rest of this posting is not.
The FCC specifies operational requirements for most avionics.
FAA TSO specs are environmental (temperature, humidity, vibration,
shock), and in some cases, such as IFR GPS, are operational. A TSO
has nothing to do with the manufacturing process (this is the concern
of the FAA PMA, parts manufacturing approval, process).
Try to buy a TSO'd DME, VFR GPS, GPS/COM or intercom and you'll
find there are no TSOs for these items. Also there is no requirement
for TSOs for anything used for FAR Part 91 operations except the
transponder and ELT.
To install non-TSO'd equipment, there is no requirement for an STC.
A 377 "Major Alteration" form is needed only if the installation
requires structural modifications to the airplane or fabrication
of a mounting tray. Otherwise, it requires only a logbook entry
by a radio shop or A&P with avionics inspection authorization that
the physical installation conforms to AC 43 standard practices,
and noting any change in aircraft weight and balance.
There are some requirements for TSO'd equipment on airliners in
FAR 121, but there are many exceptions (DME, entertainment, etc).
There is enough confusion among FAA FSDO inspectors over the new
PMA requirements that some of them seem to be making up there own
rules in this area, but let's not make up our own!
- Rod Farlee
Jim Weir
Rod Farlee <Rod_F...@bio-rad.com> shared these priceless pearls of
wisdom:
->Stuart Law wrote:
->> TSO stands for Technical Standard Order.
->This is correct, but the rest of this posting is not.
->To install non-TSO'd equipment, there is no requirement for an STC.
->A 377 "Major Alteration" form is needed only if the installation
->requires structural modifications to the airplane or fabrication
->of a mounting tray. Otherwise, it requires only a logbook entry
->by a radio shop or A&P with avionics inspection authorization that
->the physical installation conforms to AC 43 standard practices,
->and noting any change in aircraft weight and balance.
Brother Farlee got this EXACTLY, PRECISELY correct. Rod, good work!!
Jim
Jim Weir VP Engineering | You bet your sweet patootie I speak for the
RST Engineering | company. If I don't, ain't nobody gonna.
Grass Valley CA 95945 |
http://www.rst-engr.com | AR Adv WB6BHI--FCC 1st phone---Cessna 182A N73CQ
j...@rst-engr.com | Commercial/CFI-Airplane/Glider-A&P-FAA Counselor
Bob Noel
In article <323D75...@bio-rad.com>, Rod Farlee <Rod_F...@bio-rad.com>
wrote:
[snip]
> Try to buy a TSO'd DME, VFR GPS, GPS/COM or intercom and you'll
> find there are no TSOs for these items.
almost. The last I looked (back in Nov '94) the KN62 DME
was TSO'd.
--
Bob Noel
why do people over load their
webpages with unnecessary gifs?
J.Masino/T.Larson
Stuart Law (stu...@slaw.com) wrote:
: Bernie Hirsch <hir...@iquest.net> wrote in article
: <DxqvB...@iquest.net>...
: > "What does TSO'd mean? I've seen this term all over when
: shopping for
: > avionics. What does the term stand for and what is it's
: TSO stands for Technical Standard Order. It indicates that the
: product complies
<SNIP>
: Bottom Line: If you intend to operate an Airworthy (ie legal)
: airplane in the Normal
: Utility, or Aerobatic categories, you will need to buy TSO
: versions of equipment
: if you just want to do a normal install. The other versions
: would require analysis and
: test to obtain a Supplemental Type Certificate for
: installation. The market for Non-TSO
: equipment is Experimental airplanes where approval is not
: required.
Part 91 operators DO NOT have to use TSO'd equipment, except for certain
exceptions, like IFR GPS or RNAV. There's no problem installing, for example,
an non-TSO'd NAVCOM in your plane, if you only operating Part 91.
-- Jay
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Jay Masino and Teresa Larson `67 Piper Cherokee _/
_/ digital H/W design Database Design N4269J _/
_/ systems engineering Sybase and Oracle RDBMS __!__ _/
_/ UNIX and network admin UNIX and VAX _____(_)_____ _/
_/ C programming C programming ! ! ! _/
_/ Visit our homepage... http://www2.ari.net:80/home3/jmasino/ _/
_/ jma...@ari.net tla...@ari.net jay-n-...@ari.net _/
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Patrick Harris
Technical standard order.
The units design has been test over and extended environmental range
Shock, vibration, tempurature, EMI, RFI ect.
This ads cost and is required for part 135 and 121 operators in most cases.
Bernie Hirsch <hir...@iquest.net> wrote in article
<DxqvB...@iquest.net>...
> I've seen this term all over when shopping for avionics. What does the
term
Ed Krol
Doesn't this also mean that the equipment can be installed
without it being a modification which may require a form
337 to be filed?
Bob Noel
no.
--
Bob Noel aka Kobyashi Maru
my views are my own not MITRE's
(why use a disclaimer when people are
too --------- to understand it?)
Ron Natalie
> Doesn't this also mean that the equipment can be installed
> without it being a modification which may require a form
> 337 to be filed?
No. A TSO doesn't mean anything in itself. However, many
of the FSDO's consider a TSO to be "data acceptable to the
adminstrator" and sufficient information for your 337. But,
if what you're doing is considered a major modification, a
337 has to be filed no matter what you're doing (STC, repairs,
TSO'd equipment...).
The only gray area is:
1. What is a major modification (a TSO or STC doesn't alter
this definition).
2. What is data acceptable to the administrator.
Jim Weir
kr...@staff.uiuc.edu (Ed Krol) shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
->Doesn't this also mean that the equipment can be installed
->without it being a modification which may require a form
->337 to be filed?
Absolutely not. See Rod Farlee's excellent dissertation on this thread
from a couple of days ago.
Ron Magnus
Bob Noel (rwn...@tiac.net) wrote:
: In article <323D75...@bio-rad.com>, Rod Farlee <Rod_F...@bio-rad.com>
: wrote:
My DME, a Narco DME 195 is the TSO'd version as well.
Ron Magnus
ro...@hevanet.com
Charles Holzer
Looking up in my handy reference material, as of this morning, the Apollo
2001 GPS, KA 134 audio panel, KN 62A DME, KN 63 DME, KLN 35A GPS and the
KLX 135A GPS\COMM are all TSO'd units. Chuck-VAY
M & R Aviation
It means Time Scince Overhaul...usually
Hope this is of use to you.
Jim Weir
M & R Aviation <mravi...@mail.internexus.co.uk> shared these priceless
pearls of wisdom:
->Charles Holzer wrote:
... are all TSO'd units. Chuck-VAY
->It means Time Scince Overhaul...usually
Oooh Nooo.
TSO in this instance means that the unit was designed and built to an FAA
document called a Technical Standard Order (TSO). Only part 121 (air
carrier) aircraft are REQUIRED to use all-TSO equipment, so all it means to
us puddlejumpers is that it was designed to a particular standard. Some
argue that it means quality, others argue that it means spend money without
return. I would point you to the thread going on right now in
rec.aviation.homebuilt regarding TSO.
TSO when referring to an article that has been on the airplane and in
service for some time DOES mean Time Since Overhaul, but generally refers
to engines, propellers, and other time-limited items.
Edward Zager
In article <325BF7...@mail.internexus.co.uk>, M & R Aviation <mravi...@mail.internexus.co.uk> writes:
|> Charles Holzer wrote:
|> >
|> > Looking up in my handy reference material, as of this morning, the Apollo
|> > 2001 GPS, KA 134 audio panel, KN 62A DME, KN 63 DME, KLN 35A GPS and the
|>
|>
|> It means Time Scince Overhaul...usually
|>
After spamming the newsgroup about ten times (with the same message) M & R
Aviation drops this bit of "wisdom" on us.
Get a clue.
Why would anyone do business with a company that first pisses off it's customers,
and then proves it's stupidity isn't an accident by providing this bit of "wisdom"
Edward Zager
dmth...@afdsb.cca.rockwell.com
In article <325BF7...@mail.internexus.co.uk>, M & R Aviation <mravi...@mail.internexus.co.uk> writes:
|> Charles Holzer wrote:
|> >
|> > Looking up in my handy reference material, as of this morning, the Apollo
|> > 2001 GPS, KA 134 audio panel, KN 62A DME, KN 63 DME, KLN 35A GPS and the
|> > KLX 135A GPS\COMM are all TSO'd units. Chuck-VAY
|>
|>
|> It means Time Scince Overhaul...usually
|>
|> Hope this is of use to you.
|>
TSO also means, Technical Standard Order. This is normally associated with
avionics and allows for FAA approval to build the given type of equipment, under
a specific government standard.
I believe the TSO'd refered to in the original post was Technical Standard Order.
DeKevin Thornton
C170a N1702D
Peter Duniho
eza...@ctdws59.sc.intel.com (Edward Zager) wrote:
>
>After spamming the newsgroup about ten times (with the same message) M & R
>Aviation drops this bit of "wisdom" on us.
>
>Get a clue.
>
>Why would anyone do business with a company that first pisses off it's customers,
>and then proves it's stupidity isn't an accident by providing this bit of "wisdom"
To his credit, he *is* posting from the UK, where they probably don't
have Technical Standard Orders, but might have Time Since Overhaul for
all I know.
Of course, from the context of the original question, I'd think it was
obvious the "TSO" didn't refer to an overhaul issue, but it's possible
all he's guilt of is not reading the question properly, as opposed to
being a royal flaming idiot.
Of course, I don't really know...wouldn't want to rule out RFI
prematurely, would we? :)
-------------------
Peter Duniho N1404Y, Lake Renegade
pe...@microsoft.com "Blessed are the cracked, PP-ASEL&S-IR
Redmond, WA for they shall let in the light." -- J.C.
popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp
XGS...@prodigy.com (Charles Holzer) wrote:
>Looking up in my handy reference material, as of this morning, the Apollo
>2001 GPS, KA 134 audio panel, KN 62A DME, KN 63 DME, KLN 35A GPS and the
>KLX 135A GPS\COMM are all TSO'd units. Chuck-VAY
Short answer is a TSO is required for installation on a certificated
aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
patterson,george r
In article <54lifq$s...@ari.ari.net>, J.Masino/T.Larson <jma...@ari.net> wrote:
>popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp wrote:
>: Short answer is a TSO is required for installation on a certificated
>: aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
>
According to three A&Ps with whom I spoke on this issue, the first poster
is correct. A TSO or an STC is required for installation on a certificated
aircraft.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| To get the attention of a large animal, be it an
| elephant or a bureaucracy, it helps to know what
George Patterson - | part of it feels pain. Be very sure, though, that
| you want its full attention.
| Kelvin Throop
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
J.Masino/T.Larson
popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp wrote:
: Short answer is a TSO is required for installation on a certificated
: aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
Not!
-- Jay
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/ Jay Masino and Teresa Larson `67 Piper Cherokee _/
_/ digital H/W design Database Design N4269J _/
_/ systems engineering Sybase and Oracle RDBMS __!__ _/
_/ UNIX and network admin UNIX and VAX _____(_)_____ _/
_/ C programming C programming ! ! ! _/
_/ Visit our homepage... http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ _/
Bob Noel
In article <54ltf1$t...@dasher.cc.bellcore.com>, pat...@cc.bellcore.com
(patterson,george r) wrote:
> In article <54lifq$s...@ari.ari.net>, J.Masino/T.Larson <jma...@ari.net>
wrote:
> >popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp wrote:
> >: Short answer is a TSO is required for installation on a certificated
> >: aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
> >
> >Not!
>
> According to three A&Ps with whom I spoke on this issue, the first poster
> is correct. A TSO or an STC is required for installation on a certificated
> aircraft.
nit picking alert...
then the first poster isn't entirely correct. You just said a "TSO
or an STC" is required, the first poster said only that a TSO is
required.
btw - the KN64 DME isn't TSO'd and guess what, that DME is in a
lot of part 91 airplanes.
Ron Natalie
patterson,george r wrote:
>
> According to three A&Ps with whom I spoke on this issue, the first poster
> is correct. A TSO or an STC is required for installation on a certificated
> aircraft.
>
No, the first poster, and your A&P's are incorrect. A TSO is not a
necessary
nor sufficent for installation of equipement on aircraft. In order to
make
a MAJOR MODIFICATION (what that entails is another boondoggle of
definitions)
the modification must be on the original type certificate of the
aircraft,
must be covered by an STC, or must get a field approval. When you apply
for
a field approval you must provide "DATA ACCEPATBLE TO THE
ADMINISTRATOR."
For some things, a TSO will suffice as acceptable data, for other things
a TSO isn't required, and for others a TSO in itself is not by itself
good enough.
You have to know:
1. What the modification is.
2. What the Type Certificate, STC's and TSO's cover.
3. And UNFORTUANTELY: What this weeks local FSDO weenies mood is as to
what constitutes acceptible data.
Charles Holzer
Ron: Through first hand experience with the local FSDO, (PHL), I can
affirm you are correct on all points. Mainly though, what is their mood
swing this week going to be? Chuck-VAY
J.Masino/T.Larson
patterson,george r (pat...@cc.bellcore.com) wrote:
: In article <54lifq$s...@ari.ari.net>, J.Masino/T.Larson <jma...@ari.net> wrote:
: >popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp wrote:
: >: aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
: >
: >Not!
: According to three A&Ps with whom I spoke on this issue, the first poster
: is correct. A TSO or an STC is required for installation on a certificated
: aircraft.
Sure, I'll accept this WITH the "or and STC" included, but not without
(although I'm sure you can install a KN-64 DME in your plane without an STC,
and it isn't TSO'd). I'm getting tired of this subject.
--- Jay
Rod Farlee
Ron is right: TSO and/or STC are helpful but not necessary.
For aircraft operated under FAR Part 91, there is no requirement for
TSO'd avionics, except for ELT, transponder & encoder, and IFR GPS.
My Cessna has a non-TSO'd nav/comm, for example.
(Our FSDO says TSOs are required under FAR Part 121 for air carriers,
and they also apply this to most (but not all) avionics for Part 135
air taxi operators.)
There is also no requirement that an STC exist for a modification.
I just got a 337 "Major Alteration" form approved by PHL FSDO for
installation of non-STC'd fairing and cowl flap on my Cessna. But
they did take 6 months.
The requirement is that one provide "data acceptable to the
administrator". An STC is by definition acceptable. Beyond that,
each FSDO or ACO (regional Aircraft Certification Office) can interpret
this unpredictably and inconsistently.
On these TSO and STC issues, technical facts and safety seem irrelevant.
They do not wish to see the parts or the airplane. The only relevant
issue is that the bureaucrat who approves it feels he has accumulated
enough paper on it to cover his ass.
- Rod Farlee
J.Masino/T.Larson
Rod Farlee (Rod_F...@bio-rad.com) wrote:
: Ron is right: TSO and/or STC are helpful but not necessary.
Excellent explaination! That's what I've been trying to say all along.
Tony P
Oh No!! we just did this! I was educated. TSO-required and
certified aren't the same thing.
Either a TSO is mandatory wherever there is one, and they
often only apply to certain _uses_ of aircraft, rather than all
certified or aircraft of a class, or a TSO is nonmandatory except when it
applies to a given class of aircraft (use, as in commercial rather than
private).
If that doesn't make sense, try this. If there's a TSO for
radios, read it and see if it apples to _your private aircraft use_ most
do not. Some TSO's apply to all classes of aircraft (there is a list for
everything from wheels to antennae and connectors) and some don't.
I'd prefer to say there _is no_ TSO for, say, comms in private
use aircraft, rather than that there _is one_ and it doesn't apply.
Makes more sense.
You'll hear from others, since this seems to go on and on.
--
"Do not despair -- not even over the fact that you do not despair." --
Kafka
Andrew J.Sobien
>
> > In article <54lifq$s...@ari.ari.net>, J.Masino/T.Larson <jma...@ari.net>
> wrote:
> > >popl...@ykt0.attnet.or.jp wrote:
> > >: Short answer is a TSO is required for installation on a certificated
> > >: aircraft. Your are essentially modifying the aircraft
> > >
> > >Not!
> >
> > According to three A&Ps with whom I spoke on this issue, the first poster
> > is correct. A TSO or an STC is required for installation on a certificated
> > aircraft.
>
>
> then the first poster isn't entirely correct. You just said a "TSO
> or an STC" is required, the first poster said only that a TSO is
> required.
>
> btw - the KN64 DME isn't TSO'd and guess what, that DME is in a
> lot of part 91 airplanes.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> why do people over load their
> webpages with unnecessary gifs?
to a certificated aircraft and that a TSO is required if you wish to use
the equipment for instrument flight???????????
Skip Sobien
Jim Weir
jma...@ari.net (J.Masino/T.Larson) shared these priceless pearls of
wisdom:
->Rod Farlee (Rod_F...@bio-rad.com) wrote:
->: They do not wish to see the parts or the airplane. The only relevant
->: issue is that the bureaucrat who approves it feels he has accumulated
->: enough paper on it to cover his ass.
->Excellent explaination! That's what I've been trying to say all along.
->-- Jay
He has a way with words, doesn't he? I've been told I don't suffer fools
graciously enough, but Rod doesn't call a spade a spade, he calls it a
f*****g shovel!!!
Go get em, Rod & Jay. Thanks for telling it like it is.
Jim Weir
"Andrew J.Sobien" <sso...@micron.net> shared these priceless pearls of
wisdom:
->I'm under the impression that an STC is required for any alteration made
->to a certificated aircraft and that a TSO is required if you wish to use
->the equipment for instrument flight???????????
Your impression is dead wrong. Sorry, but we've answered this question now
about two dozen times in the last month and I don't feel like going into
the whole spiel. Does anybody have Rod's excellent text on file that they
could post?
Ron Natalie
Andrew J.Sobien wrote:
> I'm under the impression that an STC is required for any alteration made
> to a certificated aircraft and that a TSO is required if you wish to use
> the equipment for instrument flight???????????
Wrong, and wrong.
If the modification is covered under the original or supplemental type
certificate, that's all you need. PERIOD.
If the modification is *NOT* covered by a type certificate, and
qualifies
as a major modification, then you have to present "data acceptable to
the
adminsitrator" for your field approval. Now sometimes the
"administrator"
meaning the delegated local FSDO representative, will accept a TSO as
acceptable data, sometimes not.
A TSO just means the equipment meets some standard. Whether this
standard
is important to you depends on *WHICH* TSO you are talking about and
*WHAT*
kind of operation and FAA restrictions you are subject to.
Generally, commercial operators have TSO's spelled out all over the
place
in their requirements. Private owners tend to only need certain TSO's
(like the transponder ones) that are specifically called out in part 91.
Note that in the case of IFR flight, no TSO is required specifically.
If you are going to get a GPS approved, not only will it have to meet
the appropriate TSO's, but you still need an STC or field approval to
get it legal.