Falklands/Argentine Aircraft
MLenoch
this? Not the F-102 'Dagger'?
Thx in advance.
Thomas Schoene
<19981229231749...@ng01.aol.com>...
basically a simplified version of the Mirage III made in Israel and
exported to Argentina. Argentina also had some real Mirage IIIs,
which had more sophisticated radar and some other features. British
reports often say "Mirage" when they mean "Dagger" because the two
types are very hard to distinguish visually in flight.
--
--------------------------------------------------
TomSc...@worldnet.att.net
*Insert pithy quote here*
Jeff Joyce
and 1980. The IAI Nesher was an Israeli modification of the French Dassault
Mirage III. Argentina lost 11 Daggers during the Falkland War.
Jeff J.
MLenoch wrote in message <19981229231749...@ng01.aol.com>...
Richard J Cole
by the SNECMA Atar engine, of which Argentina acquired 26. They were under
the command of VII Brigada Aerea based at Moron Air Base and weree operated
by I Escuadron de Caza.
MLenoch <mle...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981229231749...@ng01.aol.com>...
> The Argentines had an aircraft called the 'Dagger". What type of
aircraft was
Michael Anselmo
A-4 in the Falklands war. A very brave group fliers.
Mike
Jeff Joyce wrote:
> "Dagger" was the Argentine name for 39 Israeli IAI Neshers acquired in 1978
> and 1980. The IAI Nesher was an Israeli modification of the French Dassault
> Mirage III. Argentina lost 11 Daggers during the Falkland War.
>
> Jeff J.
>
> MLenoch wrote in message <19981229231749...@ng01.aol.com>...
Guy Wastiaux
> > The Argentines had an aircraft called the 'Dagger". What type of
> aircraft was
> > Thx in advance.
> >
> basically a simplified version of the Mirage III made in Israel and
> exported to Argentina. Argentina also had some real Mirage IIIs,
> which had more sophisticated radar and some other features. British
> reports often say "Mirage" when they mean "Dagger" because the two
> types are very hard to distinguish visually in flight.
> --
> --------------------------------------------------
> TomSc...@worldnet.att.net
> *Insert pithy quote here*
--
Argentina asn't got many Mirage III (only about 5 or so) :
they are Mirage V which they bought to Belgium which were in fact
belgium-upgraded Mirage III. These Mirage V have better radar and MFDs
screens (2).
Guy Wastiaux
guy-b...@usa.net
Vicente Vazquez
>The Argentines had an aircraft called the 'Dagger". What type of aircraft
was
>this? Not the F-102 'Dagger'?
>Thx in advance.
"Dagger" was the name given to the "Neshers" that were delivered to
Argentina (26 in 1978 and some few more after). The Nesher is an isreali
built a/c based on the plans (Yes..."industrial espionage") of the SNECMA
ATAR 9C engine and the Mirage V (not III). The story of the Dagger goes back
to the Salvo Project, where a J-79 (F-4E) engine was installed in a Mirage
IIIBJ. Probably, that's why some people think the Dagger is a modified
Mirage III. Developments of the Nesher resulted in the Kfir, powered by a
J-79 engine.
The Argentinians lost the following Daggers (C-numbers) and Mirages
(I-numbers) during the Falklands/Malvinas
War:
1) I-015: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ453 - Flt. Lt.P.C.Barton - RAF) on
May 1st over Pebble Island when piloted by 1st Lt. Perona (ejected)
2) I-019: Damaged by AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ452 - Lt. Steve Thomas) and shot
down by friendly fire (35mm AAA) while trying to land on Port Stanley, going
down close to the Freycinet Peninsula, when piloted by Cap. Garcia Cueva
(KIA)
3) C-433: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ455 - Flt.Lt. Bertie Penfold - RAF)
on May 1st over Lively
Island when piloted by 1st Lt. José Ardilles (KIA).
4) C-428: Lost to a Sea Wolf SAM (HMS Broadsword?) on May 21st over the
Estreito de San Carlos when piloted by Lt. P.I.Bean (KIA).
5) C-409: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ455 - Lt.Cdr. Fredericksen) on May
21st over West Falkland when piloted by 1st Lt. H. Luna (ejected)
6) C-404: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier ZA190 - Lt. Steve Thomas) on May 21st
over West Falkland when piloted by Maj. Gustavo Piuma (ejected)
7) C-403: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier ZA190 - Lt. Steve Thomas) on May 21st
over West Falkland when piloted by Capt. Donadille (ejected)
8) C-407: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier - Lt. Crd. Nigel Ward) on May 21st
over West Falkland when piloted by 1st Lt. Jorge Senn (ejectred)
9) C-437: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier ZA194 - Lt. Martin Hale) on May 23rd
close to Pebble Island when piloted by Lt. Volponi (KIA)
10) C-419: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ457 - Lt. Cdr. Auld) on May 24th
close to Pebble Island when piloted by Maj. Puga (ejected)
11) C-430: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier XZ457 - Lt. Cdr. Auld) on May 24th
close to Pebble Island when piloted by Cap. Diaz (ejected)
12) C-410: Lost to AIM-9L (Sea Harrier ZA193 - Lt. Smith) on May 24th over
Pebble Island when piloted by Lt. Castillo (KIA)
13) C-436: Lost to a Rapier SAM on May 29th over the Estreito de San Carlos
when piloted by Lt. Bernhardt (KIA)
Does anyone have a list of the lost A-4's?
Vicente
MBenShar
>
>Vicente
Dear Vicente,
The following notes are from my files on ejections around the world. I hope
they are of some use to you.
Can anyone help put me in contact with any Argentine Air or Navy Air Force
pilot who has ejected?
Best Wishes
Mike Bennett
(at last I've actually posted some ejection data Thanks to everyone who keep
sending me the information. It is really appreciated!]
Argentina:
Ejections by Argentinian Aircrew since 1900
The following notes refer to ejections made by Argentine Aircrew using Douglas
produced Ejection Seats used in the A-4 Skyhawk.
Other notes are in preparation for ejections using Martin-Baker Ejection Seats
used in
Canberra, Mirage, Etendard, Pucara and MB-339A aircraft.
It is not certain whether the T-34 were fitted with parachute extraction
systems.
The first 25 Skyhawks were delivered to Argentina in 1966.
??-??-1968
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - injuries to feet and hands
[hh]
??-??-1977
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - lower limbs fracture when falling to ground.
[hh]
??-??-1978
A-4 Skyhawk - Unsuccessful ejection. Ejected Too Low. Parachute damaged by
fire.
[hh]
??-??-1978
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - minor injuries to chin and elbow
[hh]
19-01-1981
Argentine A-4C Skyhawkof AF/4BA crashed near Mendoza, Argentina. Pilot ejected
safely with injuries to eyes due to visor not down.
[barg d/542/81] & [hh]
MALVINOS / FALKLANDS CONFLICT
21-5-1982
CANA A-4Q Skyhawk sn. 0660 coded 3-A-307 of 3 Escuadrilla de Caza y Ataque
deployed to Rio Grande was shot down over Falkland Sound ( by an AIM-9L fired
from British Sea Harrier XZ457 of 800 Sqn. flown by Lt. Morrell ) after
successfully bombing HMS Ardent. Capitan de Corbeta Philippi ejected safely.
[barg]
21-5-1982
CANA A-4Q Skyhawk sn. 0665 coded 3-A-312 of 3 Escuadrilla de Caza y Ataque
deployed to Rio Grande was hit over Falkland Sound by cannon fire from British
Sea Harrier XZ457 of 800 Sqn. flown by Lt. Morrell ) after successfully bombing
HMS Ardent. Teniente de Navio Arca ejected safely near Stanley Airport. The
aircraft was brought down by Argentinian gunfire crashing 400yds south of the
airfield perimeter on the shoreline.
[barg]
21-5-1982
FAA A-4C Skyhawk coded C-309 of Grupo 4 de Caza deployed to San Julian was shot
down over West Falkland by an AIM-9L fired from British Sea Harrier XZ496 from
800 Sqn. flown by Lt. Cdr. Blissett or XZ942 flown by Lt. Cdr. Thomas. Teniente
Lopez unsuccessfully ejected and was killed.
[barg]
25-5-1982
FAA A-4C Skyhawk coded C-319 of Grupo 4 de Caza deployed to San Julian was
destroyed by multiple weapon hits over San Carlos Water. Teniente Lucero
ejected successfully and was recovered by HMS Fearless.
[barg]
25-5-1982
FAA A-4C Skyhawk coded C-304 of Grupo 4 de Caza deployed to San Julian was shot
down north east of Pebble Island by a Sea Dart missile fired from HMS Coventry
while returning from a mission on San Carlos Water. Capitan Garcia successfully
ejected but was not recovered from the water. His body was washed ashore in a
dinghy at Golding Island in 1983.
[barg]
27-5-1982
FAA A-4B Skyhawk coded C-215 of Grupo 5 de Caza deployed to Rio Gallegos was
shot down by 40mm cannon fire from HMS Fearless after attacking positions at
Ajax Bay. Teniente Velasco ejected succesfully over West Falkland.
[barg]
8-6-1982
FAA A-4B Skyhawk coded C-228 of Grupo 5 de Caza deployed to Rio Gallegos was
shot down over Choiseul Sound ( by an AIM-9L fired from British Sea Harrier
ZA177 from 800 Sqn. flown by Flt. Lt. Morgan) and crashed into the sea about
two miles north of Middle Island. Alferez Vazquez unsuccessfully ejected and
was killed.
[barg]
FAA = FUERZA AEREA ARGENTINA
CANA = COMMANDO DE AVIACION NAVAL ARGENTINA
??-??-1984
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - injuries due to incorrect sitting posture
[hh]
??-??-1987
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - injuries to shoulder due to aerodynamic airflow
[hh]
??-??-1988
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - injuries torn left knee ligament - seat pan did not
unfasten
[hh]
??-??-1991
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejected OK - injuries torn right knee ligament - ejection delayed
by anti-G getting stuck on one of the seat edges.
[hh]
??-??1994
A-4 Skyhawk - Ejection system failure. Plane landed on the slopes of the Andes
at 18,051 ft. Pilot uninjured.
[hh]
??-??-1995
A-4 Skyhawk - Unsuccessful ejection - fatal. Ejected too low and parachute did
not open.
[hh]
FURTHER NOTES
MALVINOS / FALKLANDS CONFLICT
According to information gathered from various sources Argentina lost the
following Skyhawks during the conflict with Britain
COMMANDO DE AVIACION NAVAL ARGENTINA
Douglas A-4Q Skyhawks supplied to Argentina were fitted with Douglas ESCAPAC 1
ejection seats with STENCIL modification.
Source 1. - 6 A-4Q Skyhawks were lost
Source 2. - 3 A-4Q Skyhawks were lost
(I could only come up with the following losses)
21-05-1982 0660 3-A-307 3 Esc. Rio Grande AIM
EJECTED OK
Cpt. De Corbett Philippi
21-05-1982 0665 3-A-312 3 Esc. Rio Grande AAA
EJECTED OK
Lt. De Navio Arca
21-05-1982 0667 3-A-314 3 Esc. Rio Grande ???
No Ejection
23-05-1982 0662 3-A-309 3 Esc. Rio Grande Landing
No ejection
11-11-1982 0659 3-A-306 3 Esc. Rio Grande Landing
No ejection
FUERZA AEREA ARGENTINA
Douglas A-4P Skyhawks supplied to Argentina were fitted with Douglas ESCAPAC 1
ejection seats with STENCIL modification
Douglas A-4C Skyhawks supplied to Argentina were fitted with either the
Douglas ESCAPAC 1 (zero / 90) or
Douglas ESCAPAC 1A-1 (zero / zero) ejection seat
Source 1. - 10 A-4P (A-4B) and 9 A-4C Skyhawks were lost
Source 2. - 19 A-4B / A-4C Skyhawks were lost
09-05-1982 A-4C C-303 Grupo 4 de Caza ???
No Ejection
09-05-1982 A-4C C-313 Grupo 4 de Caza ???
No Ejection
former BuNo 150595
12-05-1982 A-4P C-246 Grupo 5 de Caza Seawolf
No Ejection
12-05-1982 A-4P C-208 Grupo 5 de Caza Seawolf
No Ejection
12-05-1982 A-4P C-206 Grupo 5 de Caza ???
No Ejection
12-05-1982 A-4P C-248 Grupo 5 de Caza AAA
No Ejection
21-05-1982 A-4C C-309 Grupo 4 de Caza AIM-9L
Lt. Lopez UNSUCCESSFUL EJECTION
21-05-1982 A-4C C-325 Grupo 4 de Caza AIM-9L No
Ejection
23-05-1982 A-4P C-242 Grupo 5 de Caza SAM
No Ejection
24-05-1982 A-4C C-305 Grupo 4 de Caza Gunfire
No Ejection
25-05-1982 A-4P C-244 Grupo 5 de Caza Sea Dart
No Ejection
25-05-1982 A-4C C-319 Grupo 5 de Caza Rapier
EJECTED OK
Lt. Lucero
25-05-1982 A-4C C-304 Grupo 5 de Caza Sea Dart
EJECTED OK
Cpt. Garcia not recovered
27-05-1982 A-4P C-215 Grupo 5 de Caza 40mm
EJECTED OK
Lt. Velasco
30-05-1982 A-4C C-301 Grupo 4 de Caza Sea Dart
No Ejection
30-05-1982 A-4C C-310 Grupo 4 de Caza Sea Dart
No Ejection
08-06-1982 A-4P C-226 Grupo 5 de Caza AIM-9L No
Ejection
08-06-1982 A-4P C-228 Grupo 5 de Caza AIM-9L
Alferez Vazquez UNSUCCESSFUL EJECTION
08-06-1982 A-4P C-204 Grupo 5 de Caza AIM-9L
No Ejection
PRELIMINARY NOTES ON OTHER ARGENTINE AIRCREW EJECTIONS
23-10-1961
Argentine F-86F Sabre-30-NA coded C-118. Crashed near Villa Reynolds Air Base.
[Aviation News p.409 15-29 Sept. 1988]
23-03-1976
Argentine A. F. Mirage. Maj. Garcia ejected OK.
[sj]
30-03-1979
Argentine A. F. Mirage. Maj. Viola and ??? ejected OK.
[sj]
15-11-1979
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Cdr. Cimati ejected OK.
[sj]
04-12-1979
Argentine A. F. Canberra. One ejection.
[sj]
01-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Mirage. 1st Lt. Perona ejected OK.
[sj]
21-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. 1st Lt. Senn ejected OK.
[sj]
21-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Pucara. Maj. Tomba and Cpt. Benitez ejected OK.
[sj]
21-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Cpt. Donadile ejected OK.
[sj]
21-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Maj. Piuma ejected OK.
[sj]
21-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Lt. Luna ejected OK.
[sj]
24-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Maj. Puga ejected OK.
[sj]
24-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Dagger. Cpt. Diaz ejected OK.
[sj]
26-05-1982
Argentine Navy MB326. Lt. Col. Mazorra and Lt. Col. Chiaretio ejected OK.
[sj]
28-05-1982
Argentine A. F. Pucara. Lt. Arganaraz and Lt. Cruzado ejected OK.
[sj]
01-05-1983
Argentine A. F. Mirage. Lt. Perona ejected OK.
[sj]
03-04-1985
Argentine A.F. Mirage. Pilot ejected OK.
[sj]
15-09-1988
Argentine A. F. MB326. Lt. Col. Gianelli and L. Col. Rodamo ejected.
[sj]
13-03-1989
Argentine A. F. Mirage
[sj]
11-12-1989
Argentine Navy Super Etendard 0762/3-A-212 from 2 Escuadrilla Aeronaval de
Caza y Ataque at Comandante Espora crashed while engaged in firing manouevres
there. Pilot ejected safely.
[afm/f/60/90] & [afm/oct/61/95] & [sj]
04-01-1990
Argentine A. F. Pucara. Capt. R. Galvan ejected.
[sj]
31-8-1992
Argentine AF IA63 Pampa E-813. Crashed alongside the runway at Hurn Airport
when it failed to pull out of a dive during a practice display routine for the
Farnborough Airshow the following week. It is though that one of the crew
attempted unsuccessfully to eject just prior to impact. Both crew, ex-Falkland
veterans Cdr. Juan Carlos Sapolsky having been a Mirage pilot while Cpt. Omar
Dario Gelardi flew Skyhawks.
[check for their careers in other documents - did they eject before ?] &
[afm/nov/59/92]
6-5-1994
Argentine AF IAI Dagger of Grupo 6 crashed near Tandil on a training flight
after pilot had ejected.
[afm/nov/58/94]
12-1-1995
Two Spanish AF CASA C-101 E.25-32/74-01 and E.25-60/74-14.of Grupo 74 collided
in mid-air some 35 miles south of Salamanca during a training exercise while
flyng from their base at Matacaa. Both pilots, one of whom was an
Argentine Air Force Captain, ejected safely but one broke his leg, the other
was uninjured.
[afm/mar/60/95] & [afm/apr/59/95]
References:
[sj] Sir James Martin - Sarah Sharman
[barg] British Aviation Research Group
[hh] Records on Argentine Air Force A4B/C System Ejections Between 1966 and
1999 and NATO's One Hundred Ejections - Mj. Dr. Horacio Hunicken (English
Translation)
Various issues of Air Forces Monthly Magazine
Wings of Fame Vol. 4 & 5 articles on the Skyhawk.
>
Vicente Vazquez
>Argentina hasn't got many Mirage III (only about 5 or so) :
>they are Mirage V which they bought to Belgium which were in fact
>belgium-upgraded Mirage III. These Mirage V have better radar and MFDs
>screens (2).
According to what was published in the last (July 1998) edition of "Military
Aviation in
Latin America", the "Fuerza Aerea Argentina" has:
14 Dassault Mirage IIIEA
03 Dassault Mirage IIIDA
09 Dassault Mirage VPA
20 IAI Finger (upgraded Daggers)
Plus some few Mirage IIICJ kept on reserve.
David Lednicer
> The Nesher is an Israeli built a/c based on the plans
> Mirage V (not III).
Evidence that has been unearthed indicates that the Neshers were
manufacured in France and assembled in Israel. I have inspected the
remains of one of the Argentine Daggers, in a British museum and it is
filled with French made components.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
David Lednicer | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc. | email: da...@amiwest.com
2133 152nd Ave NE | tel: (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA 98052 USA | fax: (206) 746-1299
Spook
France held back the Mirage 5's Israel had ordered AND paid for. Why should
they make the parts for the Neshers then???
JJ
David Lednicer wrote in message <3691E10A...@amiwest.com>...
Falcon
>--
>Argentina asn't got many Mirage III (only about 5 or so) :
>they are Mirage V which they bought to Belgium which were in fact
>belgium-upgraded Mirage III. These Mirage V have better radar and MFDs
>screens (2).
>guy-b...@usa.net
Sorry, your are confusing Argentina with Chile. The modified belgian
Mirages are called Elkan and were delivered to the Chilean Air Force.
I can not assure it but I am pretty sure that the Daggers were
maintained with israeli equipment rather than french.
All the Mirage III, VP(sold by Peru) and Daggers are based in Tandil
AFB. I can't give you an exact number for each tipe but last year some
26 aircraft were airworthy to participate in the Air Force Day.
There has been upgrade programs mostly to try to get all the MV and
Daggers to the same standard. I think today there are M III and
Fingers in service(this last includes modifed M V and Daggers)
Oren Rozen
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/nesher.htm
OrenR.
Thomas Schoene wrote:
> MLenoch <mle...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19981229231749...@ng01.aol.com>...
> > The Argentines had an aircraft called the 'Dagger". What type of
> aircraft was
> > this? Not the F-102 'Dagger'?
> > Thx in advance.
> >