Jim Bede
WBillphill
I don't mean to sound stupid because I'm not. But I am ignorant. I've been
building and flying stuff since I was in High School 40 years ago but I never
had any money. So, I built simple stuff for awhile. I never even looked at
the Bede stuff. It was too expensive for me for 30 years or so while I was
working for a living. I never followed the storys of the grown ups and guys
who had money and bought the Bede stuff. And, even at this point I am IGNORANT
of what happened. I'm not stupid....I'm IGNORANT. Big difference. I'd like
to start a thread where we can talk about Bede. What the hell did he do that
pissed so many of you off? Did he take money and not deliver? Yes, maybe?
How about his designs? I saw the BD-5J fly twice and dreamed of owning one.
What's the truth on these issues. I really don't know.
Was Bede a crook like Fetters? I say "crook" because I consider anyone who
takes money for a kit and doesn't supply it a crook. But, I really want to
know about the quality of materials and the design? What do you smart people
think?
Bill PHillips
Richard Lamb
from all kinds of people,
but personally,
no, he wasn't a crook.
--
Richard Lamb
email: lam...@flash.net
web: http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
Jim VanDervort
"WBillphill" <wbill...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310014036...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
Jerry Springer
>
> You'll get all kinds of answers,
> from all kinds of people,
> but personally,
> no, he wasn't a crook.
>
YES HE IS.
Juan Jimenez
70's. Like I always say, it's one thing to make conclusions from the
outside, quite another to do the same from the inside.
"Jerry Springer" <jsf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AAA4A4E...@earthlink.net...
Juan Jimenez
anywhere else in the GA industry. Some people think he's the anti-christ.
Others don't. Bede's the kind of person that generates very polarized
opinions. I've heard both sides of the story. I suggest you do the same, his
email is j...@bedecorp.com. Then you can reach your own conclusions.
"WBillphill" <wbill...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010310014036...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
>
John Kunkel
>
> What the hell did he do that
> pissed so many of you off? Did he take money and not deliver? Yes, maybe?
> How about his designs?
Bede took full payment for the BD5 kit from over 4000 customers and
delivered anywhere from zero to half of the parts to most of his
customers before going belly up. He also took deposits on a production
version of the BD5, which never materialized. Some of the money was used
to design future models. Being one of those 4000, I say he's a crook.
John
Juan Jimenez
straight. Most people did receive all portions of their kit except the drive
system, engine and prop. I know because I have seen lots of kits with serial
numbers from the low 2 digits (mine is serial # 22) to the high thousands
(I used to own 2544 and have seen sn's as high as 4500) for sale and
invariably that is all that they are missing (and chapter 7 and 10 of the
plans, no one got 10).
And yes, some of the money was used to develop the BD-6 and BD-7. I suppose
there isn't a single company out there that does that, right? Nobody that is
looking to the future and doesn't expect engine manufacturers not to be able
to deliver what they contract to deliver uses some of the money they have to
develop the next generation of aircraft kits to sell? <sheesh>
Juan
"John Kunkel" <JohnL...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3AAA8732...@worldnet.att.net...
DJFawcett26
>straight. Most people did receive all portions of their kit except the drive
Hi Juan,
With all due respect, most people did not receive what you claim, check the
bankruptcy records. The simple fact is that if the customer just received one
piece of his kit or part of the manuals, the serial number was assigned.
I don't want to get into where most of the money went (again check the
bankruptcy records - you will be shocked), but you are right some did go into
the BD-6,7 - very little compared to the rest of the follies. But I bet you
didn't know this one. More than a million dollars was spent on the BD-5 jet
team and the DC-3 to ferry them around (great marketing tool, but absolutely
irresponsible - remember that was early 70's dollars - today, multiply that by
3 or 4 - an entire experimental homebuilt aircraft program could be done for
that today, maybe two programs.) That being said, it sure doesn't seem like a
prudent expenditure when there was no engine, etc. for the customers. Now I
will say the engine manufacturers did not do Bede any favors during that time
period, but if he operated in a responsible manner during the engine dilemas,
he probably would have survived. Unfortunately for all, he didn't.
The bottom line, Jim was not the victim, the customers were.
walt harper
reasons. His Bd-1 set motorgliding records, the BD-4 was supposed to be
"read the book, build the airplane" even though it would take a long, long
time. He invented the Yankee, Cheetah which restarted production in Taiwan,
and other slick planes (some jets)but the BD-5 is the sore spot whenever you
mention "$4995" or the "Red Carpet Club". The deposits, parts, and planes
were never delivered-bankruptcy. and the deaths attibutable to aft CG
loading were never forgiven. The Hirth and Limbach engines burned up and
control sensitivity caused porpoising on short final. I've read
extensively(because the press loves-and hates- James Bede) about all
seventeen models and he is undeniably a wizard at introduction of designing
new planes and to hear him sell, you'd think he had a degree in Baptist
Gospel. Ask me anything about the man, he was one of the reasons for Oshkosh
being so big today.
WBillphill wrote in message
<20010310014036...@ng-mm1.aol.com>...
Walt Lear
Should he have sold -5's when there was no suitable power plant? No. Does that
make him a crook, or a misguided optimist?
But I think everyone including Juan will agree that the -5 in the configuration
that was originally sold to the public was an awful airplane. Ron Wanttaja pointed
out once that the -5 had a fatality rate of more than one per flight hour. It is
better now (still not good, but much better) because of the work that other people
did. Whether or not Bede personally made more than a reasonable profit selling
-5's, he was selling a horribly unsafe machine. At some point that became obvious
to even him. If he continued selling kits after that, I think that should affect
our judgement of him.
He sold BD-10 kits as supersonic well after it was clear that it would never break
mach. That makes him a con-artist, though of low order since there are only 2
military mach areas in the US. After the BD-10 vertical had the partial failure at
Reno he took a second shot at designing it. Despite knowing what the failure mode
was he underbuilt the redesign. That makes him a bad engineer.
The -12 and -14 were sold on 100 hour build times at builder assistance centers.
The FAA had told him years before that he couldn't have builder assistance centers
for the -10, I've seen the letter they sent to him. That makes him a low order
con. Most of the kitplane companies lie about their building time, he just told a
bigger lie.
He sold the -12 and -14 with "escrowed" deposits that were spent as soon as he got
them. That makes him a crook. They were only $100 deposits and I don't know how
many of them there were, so I don't know how big a crook it made him.
As far as spending BD-5 money on the -6 and -7, I don't know, since I don't know
when it happened. If it was early in the program when he thought he could get
engines and that normal people could fly the -5, it's bad judgement but doesn't
make him a crook. If it was later, when it was obvious the whole thing was going
to collapse, I think it does. Taking deposits on a certified BD 5 can'd be honest,
I don't think anyone could look at the -5 and say it could ever be certified.
> I know there are lots of people who don't like Bede but get your facts
> straight. Most people did receive all portions of their kit except the drive
> system, engine and prop. I know because I have seen lots of kits with serial
> numbers from the low 2 digits (mine is serial # 22) to the high thousands
> (I used to own 2544 and have seen sn's as high as 4500) for sale and
> invariably that is all that they are missing (and chapter 7 and 10 of the
> plans, no one got 10).
>
> And yes, some of the money was used to develop the BD-6 and BD-7. I suppose
> there isn't a single company out there that does that, right? Nobody that is
> looking to the future and doesn't expect engine manufacturers not to be able
> to deliver what they contract to deliver uses some of the money they have to
> develop the next generation of aircraft kits to sell? <sheesh>
>
> Juan
>
> "John Kunkel" <JohnL...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> 3AAA8732...@worldnet.att.net">news:3AAA8732...@worldnet.att.net...
> > WBillphill wrote:
> > >
> > > What the hell did he do that
> > > pissed so many of you off? Did he take money and not deliver? Yes,
> maybe?
> > > How about his designs?
> >
> > Bede took full payment for the BD5 kit from over 4000 customers and
> > delivered anywhere from zero to half of the parts to most of his
> > customers before going belly up. He also took deposits on a production
> > version of the BD5, which never materialized. Some of the money was used
> > to design future models. Being one of those 4000, I say he's a crook.
> > John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mailgate References:
> Jim Bede, WBillphill
> Re: Jim Bede, John Kunkel
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Posted from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Richard Lamb
quickly and get on with the show. Resonance is much better understood
NOW, but that was the early '70s and it was a very tough nut.
These days, everybody has heard of the potential pitfalls of any
kind of drive reduction system. And there has been enough shared
knowledge to help us build them sucessfully.
But not then.
--
RobertR237
(DJFawcett26) writes:
You will never convice Jaun of that, he feels that the customers got what they
paid for if they received a kit (any of the partial kits) even though they paid
for an aircraft kit including an engine and prop. The fact is that Bede sold
thousands of aircraft kits, took even more thousands of deposits when he fully
knew that he did not have a viable working aircraft including engine and prop.
Bob Reed
http://robertr237.virtualave.net/ (KIS Project)
KIS Cruiser in progress...2001 Oshkosh Odessy ;-) (I can hope!)
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the
Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freidman)
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>I know there are lots of people who don't like Bede but get your facts
>straight. Most people did receive all portions of their kit except the drive
>system, engine and prop. I know because I have seen lots of kits with serial
>numbers from the low 2 digits (mine is serial # 22) to the high thousands
>(I used to own 2544 and have seen sn's as high as 4500) for sale and
>invariably that is all that they are missing (and chapter 7 and 10 of the
>plans, no one got 10).
>
BUT, they paid for ALL portions of their aircraft including the DRIVE SYSTEM,
ENGINE, and PROP. The point remains that they DID NOT RECEIVE what they PAID
for and BEDE knew that he did not have a viable Engine, Drive system and Prop
when he shipped the kits and accepted full payments for those aircraft. You
can whitewash it all you want but it will never change the facts.
>And yes, some of the money was used to develop the BD-6 and BD-7. I suppose
>there isn't a single company out there that does that, right? Nobody that is
>looking to the future and doesn't expect engine manufacturers not to be able
>to deliver what they contract to deliver uses some of the money they have to
>develop the next generation of aircraft kits to sell? <sheesh>
>
>Juan
Too damn bad he was using the money from the BD-5 to develop the BD-6 and BD-7
before he had finished the full development of the BD-5. Once again you make
excuses but excuses will never pay back those who lost money to that con.
RobertR237
writes:
>
>The thing is, though, that we expected to solve the drive problem
>quickly and get on with the show. Resonance is much better understood
>NOW, but that was the early '70s and it was a very tough nut.
>
>These days, everybody has heard of the potential pitfalls of any
>kind of drive reduction system. And there has been enough shared
>knowledge to help us build them sucessfully.
>
>
>But not then.
>
>
And his excuse for the BD-10 was....
And his excuse for the BD-12/14 was....
Excuses, excuses, excuses but the loosers were the hundreds and thousands of
customers who paid good money expecting to receive what they paid for.
Instead, they got excuses and little else. Once, was understandable to a point
but it wasn't limited to once. Bede made promises he knew he could not keep,
claims that he knew were not true and took money for what he knew he could
never deliver. He went far beyond just being a good promoter, he crossed the
line and commited what amounts to fraud and should have been brought up on
charges.
ChuckSlusarczyk
rober...@aol.compost says...
>And his excuse for the BD-10 was....
>
>And his excuse for the BD-12/14 was....
>
>Excuses, excuses, excuses but the loosers were the hundreds and thousands of
>customers who paid good money expecting to receive what they paid for.
>Instead, they got excuses and little else. Once, was understandable to a point
>but it wasn't limited to once. Bede made promises he knew he could not keep,
>claims that he knew were not true and took money for what he knew he could
>never deliver. He went far beyond just being a good promoter, he crossed the
>line and commited what amounts to fraud and should have been brought up on
>charges.
and zoom campbell defends Bede and crucifys me....then claims he doesn't
selectively persecute people. So much for zooms credibility. But then we all
know that..."credibility it was aways about credibility"....and zoom has none.
see ya
Chuck S RAH-15/1 ret
"evil didn't triumph because good men spoke an evil was nuts" anon
Juan Jimenez
>
> With all due respect, most people did not receive what you claim, check
the
> bankruptcy records. The simple fact is that if the customer just received
one
> piece of his kit or part of the manuals, the serial number was assigned.
The simple fact is that serial numbers were assigned by the order in which
orders were received. The priority number was also the serial number.
Delivery had nothing to do with assignment of serial numbers.
> I don't want to get into where most of the money went (again check the
> bankruptcy records - you will be shocked), but you are right some did go
into
> the BD-6,7 - very little compared to the rest of the follies. But I bet
you
> didn't know this one. More than a million dollars was spent on the BD-5
jet
> team and the DC-3 to ferry them around (great marketing tool, but
absolutely
> irresponsible - remember that was early 70's dollars - today, multiply
that by
> 3 or 4 - an entire experimental homebuilt aircraft program could be done
for
> that today, maybe two programs.)
You're mistaken, I did know that. You already stated the obvious -- its
purpose was as a marketing tool, and it did its job well. Had Bede known
that the engines he had ordered were going to have serious design problems,
I'm sure he would have done things differently. But of course, hindsight is
20/20....
> That being said, it sure doesn't seem like a
> prudent expenditure when there was no engine, etc. for the customers. Now
I
> will say the engine manufacturers did not do Bede any favors during that
time
> period, but if he operated in a responsible manner during the engine
dilemas,
> he probably would have survived. Unfortunately for all, he didn't.
The engine problems that finally killed the company did not surface until
close to the end of the life of the corporation. Can you recommend a good
crystal ball reader?
> The bottom line, Jim was not the victim, the customers were.
Did you check the banruptcy records close enough to know that Bede and his
father also lost a ton of money because of the bankruptcy, the money they
put in out of their pockets to get things going in the first place? Hmm.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20010311234059...@nso-co.aol.com...
>
> And his excuse for the BD-10 was....
Nobody has made excuses for the BD-10. The record is clear. The investors
chose to take away control of the program because they wanted it finished
faster. The test program was accelerated to an unsafe degree and we all know
the results.
> And his excuse for the BD-12/14 was....
I have little knowledge of the BD-12/14 program other than what I've been
told third hand.
> He went far beyond just being a good promoter, he crossed the
> line and commited what amounts to fraud and should have been brought up on
> charges.
Why don't you? Why didn't you? Why didn't anyone do that? Certainly there
were plenty of lawyers that signed up for some of the programs. Some sued
and won. But fraud charges? Not one. Why do you suppose that is so?
Juan
Juan Jimenez
news:20010311234059...@nso-co.aol.com...
>
they
> paid for if they received a kit (any of the partial kits) even though they
paid
> for an aircraft kit including an engine and prop. The fact is that Bede
sold
> thousands of aircraft kits, took even more thousands of deposits when he
fully
> knew that he did not have a viable working aircraft including engine and
prop.
Bob, if and when you get your facts straight and have evidence to back up
your interpretation of the events, you're welcome to argue your conclusions.
I've told you before, you don't have even a fraction of the info needed to
reach such conclusions and in fact are basing them solely on how you feel
about making a bet and losing your money.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
news:98ghml$l...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> Jim Bede is the one story everyone in hombuilding needs to know for many
> reasons. His Bd-1 set motorgliding records,
Not the BD-1, the BD-2. Too bad the electrical system failed on the
round-the-world flight. That would have been one heck of a record.
> the BD-4 was supposed to be
> "read the book, build the airplane" even though it would take a long, long
time.
The BD-4 does take time to build, but I would not classify it as a "long,
long time". Any kit can take a long time if you don't plan for it and don't
dedicate the money and time required to finish it. I know people who have
finished BD-5's in months, and I know one person who took 25 yrs to finish
his. ??
> The deposits, parts, and planes
> were never delivered-bankruptcy. and the deaths attibutable to aft CG
> loading were never forgiven.
Wait a minute. Do you blame Bede for the actions of people that didn't
calculate their CG's properly and didn't apply the correct fwd ballast?
You've got to be kididng me.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
news:3AABD253...@techie.org...
>
> But I think everyone including Juan will agree that the -5 in the
configuration
> that was originally sold to the public was an awful airplane.
Which original configuration? The original fiberglass fuselage V-tail,
the -5A, -5B?
> He sold BD-10 kits as supersonic well after it was clear that it would
never break
> mach.
I'd like to see the source that supports this statement. Remember before you
answer that the BD-10 program was taken away from his control during the
flight testing phase.
> After the BD-10 vertical had the partial failure at
> Reno he took a second shot at designing it. Despite knowing what the
failure mode
> was he underbuilt the redesign. That makes him a bad engineer.
Walt, when the second BD-10 vert stab spar failed Bede was -not- in control
of the program.
> The FAA had told him years before that he couldn't have builder assistance
centers
> for the -10, I've seen the letter they sent to him.
Yet most of the kits were in fact being built at a builder assistance
center, I have the pictures with the aircraft that were being built. ??
> Taking deposits on a certified BD 5 can'd be honest,
> I don't think anyone could look at the -5 and say it could ever be
certified.
Ask Rutan that question. He was in charge of the certification program. If
he didn't think the a/c could be certified, why did he take the job? Ask
Corkey Fornof as well what he thinks of the BD-5D. (cfo...@aol.com)
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
>
> BUT, they paid for ALL portions of their aircraft including the DRIVE
SYSTEM,
> ENGINE, and PROP. The point remains that they DID NOT RECEIVE what they
PAID
> for and BEDE knew that he did not have a viable Engine, Drive system and
Prop
> when he shipped the kits and accepted full payments for those aircraft.
You
> can whitewash it all you want but it will never change the facts.
Let's try this again, slower.
H-o-w d-o y-o-u s-h-i-p s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
h-a-v-e?
Let's try another example. Why did Cessna not ship the new 206's with the
original engine that was meant for it? Do the research. It's the same
reason.
> Too damn bad he was using the money from the BD-5 to develop the BD-6 and
BD-7
> before he had finished the full development of the BD-5. Once again you
make
> excuses but excuses will never pay back those who lost money to that con.
Oh brother. Get over it, Bob.
Juan
Jim VanDervort
(for which I am eternally grateful).
I picked Steve Wittman to be a better man and airplane builder.
I built a Tailwind and have had it all over the US and some of Canada.
Certainly didn't have to wonder if it was going to work or not.
Some things are better off left alone.
I felt this way about Bede.
I has worked for me.
assa9
"Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1P7r6.402205$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
John Kunkel
>
> I know there are lots of people who don't like Bede but get your facts
> straight. Most people did receive all portions of their kit except the drive
> system, engine and prop.
Gee, what part of "except" don't you understand. I paid for a powered
aircraft kit and was shipped an incomplete glider kit. Your assertion
that most people received all portions of the kit except the power train
is wrong. Most kit owners that I know of were missing a lot more than
just the power train especially the later priority numbers.
The only ones who received anywhere near a complete kit were the handful
who called Bede's bluff and took the available engine and drive instead
of believing his promises that the powerplant problem would be resolved
and units would be shipped at the original price.
John (Priority #3432)
DJFawcett26
>were plenty of lawyers that signed up for some of the programs. Some sued
>and won. But fraud charges? Not one. Why do you suppose that is so?
Hi Juan,
Actually, the reason was very simple. The Justice Department was going to do
just that concerning the BD-5. However, an agreement was reached by Jim with
the JD where as he would agree not to accept any deposits with any business he
may undertake for a period of 10 yrs. Hence, he signed a Consent Ageement
attesting he would not accept deposits for the stipulated period.
DJFawcett26
>close to the end of the life of the corporation. Can you recommend a good
>crystal ball reader?
In accurate, they were around from almost the beginning.
>Did you check the banruptcy records close enough to know that Bede and his
>father also lost a ton of money because of the bankruptcy, the money they
>put in out of their pockets to get things going in the first place? Hmm.
How does this statement have anything to do with justifying the actions of
Bede?
DJFawcett26
>answer that the BD-10 program was taken away from his control during the
>flight testing phase.
This one is real easy to answer. Ask the chief test pilot, Skip Holm (he did
all of the high end envelope expansion after taking over from Ed Gillepsie).
The aircraft hit the aerodynamic wall at Mach .85-.86 with 100% power (thrust
equals drag). The only way the BD-10 was going supersonic was with a rocket
motor, and by the way, that was discussed for use with a potential customer.
To clarify, the program was NOT taken away from him as you claim. What
actually happened was that Peregriene acquired the civilian rights in return
for monies owed them by Bede Jet. Bede Jet still retained the military rights.
And Bede still controlled the prototype and any testing he wished to do.
By the way, I always thought the BD-10 was a pretty neat airplane, even if it
didn't go supersonic. It is just a shame things didn't work out.
Unfortunately, that is "par for the course" with Jim.
>Ask Rutan that question. He was in charge of the certification program. If
>he didn't think the a/c could be certified, why did he take the job?
Really, do you think Rutan did a total analysis on the aircraft before taking
the job, I doubt it. I do know he left the program after determining there was
just too many flaws in the design for certification, plus an immense amount of
frustration.
>Ask
>Corkey Fornof as well what he thinks of the BD-5D. (cfo...@aol.com)
I think we already know the answer here. Corkey is an exceptional pilot, and
he enjoyed the -5, as did many other pilots. Now does that mean it was
certifiable, I think not. Now could it be certified. Maybe, if the work
continued until all of the "problems" were worked out, but that is only
conjecture, and probably reserved for the "bar room discussion".
Richard Lamb
But what I'm hearing from the group is this:
It's ok to break new ground - but not ok to make any mistakes.
Too bad.
Richard Lamb
Then a neighbor located a 50% done project.
It would be a good year or so head start!
--
Jim VanDervort
assa9
"Richard Lamb" <lam...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3AAE1F33...@flash.net...
Craig C.
>Like I said earlier....
>
>But what I'm hearing from the group is this:
>
>It's ok to break new ground - but not ok to make any mistakes.
>
>Too bad.
>--
Actually Richard, it's okay to make mistakes, the problem comes when
one tries to hide the mistake or deceive others about it. If the
mistake is out in the open, then the probability of finding a good
solution is very high. When it is hidden, then it goes to near zero...
First thing we were told at GD on the production line...We can
tolerate mistakes we know about because we can fix those. The ones
that get hidden can't be fixed...those we fire people over.
Craig C.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
Making a bet? What the fuck are you talking about? The people who paid their
money for those kits and paid their deposits on the kits were not buying
lottery tickets. They paid their money and expected to receive what they paid
for. Thousands paid the full price for a complete kit which was supposed to
include the engine, drive train, and prop. YOU have admitted on one occassion
after another that they DID NOT RECEIVE the engine and drive system. That is
the same as going out to day and buying a new car, paying full price and
expecting to get and engine, transmission and wheels but only receiving the
body. What you have is a worthless piece of junk. (A new car cost about the
same as the BD-5 at that time by the way.) What the vast majority of BD-5 kits
turned out to be for the thousands of buyers was nothing more than a box of
scrap metal. Those are the FACTS which you can not deny.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> He went far beyond just being a good promoter, he crossed the
>> line and commited what amounts to fraud and should have been brought up on
>> charges.
>
>Why don't you? Why didn't you? Why didn't anyone do that? Certainly there
>were plenty of lawyers that signed up for some of the programs. Some sued
>and won. But fraud charges? Not one. Why do you suppose that is so?
>
>Juan
>
>
As you said in another post, 20/20 hindsight is the only reason I know of. I
didn't because at that time I didn't know any better and besides it wasn't
worth the few hundred dollars I lost to even try to recoop it, besides the line
was too damn long. At this point, I don't care about sending him to jail but I
will warn others to be aware of his past record and not give him a dime unless
you walk out with everything you pay for.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>Did you check the banruptcy records close enough to know that Bede and his
>father also lost a ton of money because of the bankruptcy, the money they
>put in out of their pockets to get things going in the first place? Hmm.
>
>Juan
>
>
GOOD but not Good Enough to keep them from coming back and doing the same thing
again and again. Sorry Jaun, but I don't feel sorry for them even one little
bit, at least they had the money to loose.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
>news:20010311234058...@nso-co.aol.com...
>>
>> BUT, they paid for ALL portions of their aircraft including the DRIVE
>SYSTEM,
>> ENGINE, and PROP. The point remains that they DID NOT RECEIVE what they
>PAID
>> for and BEDE knew that he did not have a viable Engine, Drive system and
>Prop
>> when he shipped the kits and accepted full payments for those aircraft.
>You
>> can whitewash it all you want but it will never change the facts.
>
>Let's try this again, slower.
>
>H-o-w d-o y-o-u s-h-i-p s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
>h-a-v-e?
>
>
OK Jaun, now you answer this one....
W-H-Y d-o y-o-u S-E-L-L s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t h-a-v-e,
e-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y
w-h-e-n y-o-u d-a-m-n w-e-l-l k-n-o-w y-o-u d-o-n-'t h-a-v-e
i-t t-o s-e-l-l?
Hint: YOU DON'T unless you are JIM BEDE!
Juan Jimenez
news:20010312145659...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
Unhuh. Another "serial numnbers assigned on delivery" statement? :)
Don't insult my intelligence. If anybody had reached such an agreement with
DOJ ti would not have stopped anyone from filing state charges.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
>
> As you said in another post, 20/20 hindsight is the only reason I know of.
I
> didn't because at that time I didn't know any better and besides it wasn't
> worth the few hundred dollars I lost to even try to recoop it, besides the
line
> was too damn long.
Come on, Bob. You talked to a lawyer. You considered suing for the money.
But you didn't know that you could file fraud charges? Hmm.
> At this point, I don't care about sending him to jail but I
> will warn others to be aware of his past record and not give him a dime
unless
> you walk out with everything you pay for.
That's your prerogative.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
>
> Making a bet? What the fuck are you talking about? The people who paid
their
> money for those kits and paid their deposits on the kits were not buying
> lottery tickets. They paid their money and expected to receive what they
paid
> for.
When you give anybody money in expectation of receiving something in the
future it is a bet as soon as the money leaves your hands. You make the
transaction hoping everything will go OK and no internal or external factors
will interfere with the transaction. That's why there are things like escrow
companies and bank letters of credit, to insure against losing the bet (and
it is insurance, you pay someone to make sure you get your money back if the
seller does not perform.)
> Thousands paid the full price for a complete kit which was supposed to
> include the engine, drive train, and prop. YOU have admitted on one
occassion
> after another that they DID NOT RECEIVE the engine and drive system.
And as usual you choose to ignore the fact that delivery of the engine and
drive system did not happen because of factors completely outside of Bede's
control. If you're going to state facts, state them in full, not just what
suits your twist of the events.
> That is the same as going out to day and buying a new car, paying full
price and
> expecting to get and engine, transmission and wheels but only receiving
the
> body.
No, it's not, because when you buy a new car, the car is there, complete,
and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before delivery
that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
fly I am amazed at its performance.
"Jim VanDervort" <dpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:taq70eg...@corp.supernews.com...
Juan Jimenez
>
> OK Jaun, now you answer this one....
>
>
> W-H-Y d-o y-o-u S-E-L-L s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
h-a-v-e,
> e-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y
> w-h-e-n y-o-u d-a-m-n w-e-l-l k-n-o-w y-o-u d-o-n-'t h-a-v-e
> i-t t-o s-e-l-l?
B-e-c-a-u-s-e i-t-s s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e i-n t-h-e
i-n-d-u-s-t-r-y.
It's the way 99% of aircraft are sold.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"John Kunkel" <JohnL...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3AAD2873...@worldnet.att.net...
>
> Most kit owners that I know of were missing a lot more than
> just the power train especially the later priority numbers.
Exactly how many it owners do you know, John?
The key to your argument is proving that the non-delivery was intentional.
It was not.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
> >The engine problems that finally killed the company did not surface until
> >close to the end of the life of the corporation. Can you recommend a good
> >crystal ball reader?
>
> In accurate, they were around from almost the beginning.
Which engine, DJ? The Polaris? The Hirth? The Zenoah? The Honda?
> How does this statement have anything to do with justifying the actions of
> Bede?
The statement shows a simple fact, how do you -steal- your own money?
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"Craig C." <valc...@dhc.net> wrote in message
news:1F93940614CDE2D5.6DF96E65...@lp.airnews.net...
> >--
> Actually Richard, it's okay to make mistakes, the problem comes when
> one tries to hide the mistake or deceive others about it. If the
> mistake is out in the open, then the probability of finding a good
> solution is very high. When it is hidden, then it goes to near zero...
The probability of finding solutions for technological problems which have
not yet been solved because the industry has not reached that far yet has
nothing to do with "being open". You want to talk about being open, come
read the files in the referefence library of my web site.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> In article <bD7r6.402188$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "Juan
Jimenez"
> <fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> GOOD but not Good Enough to keep them from coming back and doing the same
thing
> again and again. Sorry Jaun, but I don't feel sorry for them even one
little
> bit, at least they had the money to loose.
I guess you've never heard of people getting knocked down and getting back
up to try again. You should have seen the Ruiz-Hollyfield fight. It would
have taught you something about life.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
news:9d7qatgir2naf312v...@4ax.com...
>
> >Which original configuration? The original fiberglass fuselage V-tail,
> >the -5A, -5B?
>
> the A cost some lives. IIRC, the first 4 crashed on take off, killing
> 2 of the pilots?
The A was abandoned as well, because of high wing loading. However, look at
the FAI world records, you'll see that the C1b speed record belongs to a
BD-5A.
> >I'd like to see the source that supports this statement. Remember before
you
> >answer that the BD-10 program was taken away from his control during the
> >flight testing phase.
>
> One of the first things they did in flight test was abandoned the
> all-flying horizontal because it was too pitch sensitive at lower
> speeds. The elevator-fixed horizontal would have given them control
> reversal and mach tuck if they'd ever gone transonic, according to
> Burt Rutan. That clearly meant they had abandoned the thought that
> the airplane would be supersonic, but they kept selling it as if it
> was.
If you abandone something you figure out won't work at transonic speeds, how
does that prove that they abandoned the possibility of going supersonic?
Your logic is incorrect.
> >Walt, when the second BD-10 vert stab spar failed Bede was -not- in
control
> >of the program.
>
> But they were building the vert stab spar to Bede's RE-design.
As I said, Bede was not in control of the program at that stage. I suppose
Peregrine had never heard of testing components to failure to verify
designs, and wind tunnel testing?
> >> The FAA had told him years before that he couldn't have builder
assistance
> >centers
> >> for the -10, I've seen the letter they sent to him.
> >
> >Yet most of the kits were in fact being built at a builder assistance
> >center, I have the pictures with the aircraft that were being built. ??
>
> Yes. How many of those planes were given experimental/amateur built
> certificates?
Didn't you bother to check the FAA database? Two examples that show
otherwise: N7FF, N98MJ.
> FAA was very clear with Bede and Peregrine. They would
> be certified only as exp/exhibition. No one told the customers. Call
> the Van Nuys FSDO, they still have a copy of the letter they sent
> Bede.
I could care less what the FSDO thinks, we all know how FSDO staffers can
rant and rave about a lot of things they have no real control over. Look at
the FAA registration database.
> With that knowledge, his selling the 12 and 14 on the basis of
> intensive builder assistance centers was fraud. He knew it would
> result in airplanes that couldn't be certified as amateur built.
The above proves this statement wrong.
> >Ask Rutan that question. He was in charge of the certification program.
If
> >he didn't think the a/c could be certified, why did he take the job? Ask
> >Corkey Fornof as well what he thinks of the BD-5D. (cfo...@aol.com)
>
> How could it be certified if there wasn't an adequate engine?
Ask Rutan and Fornof that question, Walt. I'm sure you'll find the answer
very interesting.
Juan
BOb U.
>Making a bet? What the fuck are you talking about? The people who paid their
>money for those kits and paid their deposits on the kits were not buying
>lottery tickets. They paid their money and expected to receive what they paid
>for. Thousands paid the full price for a complete kit which was supposed to
>include the engine, drive train, and prop. YOU have admitted on one occassion
>after another that they DID NOT RECEIVE the engine and drive system. That is
>the same as going out to day and buying a new car, paying full price and
>expecting to get and engine, transmission and wheels but only receiving the
>body. What you have is a worthless piece of junk. (A new car cost about the
>same as the BD-5 at that time by the way.) What the vast majority of BD-5 kits
>turned out to be for the thousands of buyers was nothing more than a box of
>scrap metal.
>Those are the FACTS which you can not deny.
>
>Bob Reed
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Juan has been in a state of denial since day one.
What makes you think this will suddenly change now? <g>
BOb U.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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C.D.Damron
>If you abandone something you figure out won't work at transonic speeds,
how
>does that prove that they abandoned the possibility of going supersonic?
>Your logic is incorrect.
I'm not going to fall for that old Jedi-knight mind trick.
Juan Jimenez
>
> This one is real easy to answer. Ask the chief test pilot, Skip Holm (he
did
> all of the high end envelope expansion after taking over from Ed
Gillepsie).
> The aircraft hit the aerodynamic wall at Mach .85-.86 with 100% power
(thrust
> equals drag). The only way the BD-10 was going supersonic was with a
rocket
> motor, and by the way, that was discussed for use with a potential
customer.
I talk to Skip Holm all the time, DJ. :) The rocket engine idea was a
marketing idea, not something they wanted to do for a customer so he could
fly it that way. And the program was taken away from BD well before he could
have made such a decision.
> To clarify, the program was NOT taken away from him as you claim. What
> actually happened was that Peregriene acquired the civilian rights in
return
> for monies owed them by Bede Jet. Bede Jet still retained the military
rights.
> And Bede still controlled the prototype and any testing he wished to do.
No, Bede did NOT control the flight testing because the prototype was NOT
being used for that. Those aircraft were built by Peregrine, not Bede. Get
your facts straight.
> By the way, I always thought the BD-10 was a pretty neat airplane, even if
it
> didn't go supersonic. It is just a shame things didn't work out.
> Unfortunately, that is "par for the course" with Jim.
There's one for sale now. $595,000. In Arizona. Interested?
> >Ask Rutan that question. He was in charge of the certification program.
If
> >he didn't think the a/c could be certified, why did he take the job?
>
> Really, do you think Rutan did a total analysis on the aircraft before
taking
> the job, I doubt it. I do know he left the program after determining
there was
> just too many flaws in the design for certification, plus an immense
amount of
> frustration.
Funny, did Rutan tell you that? <chuckle> Lately he's been claiming in
articles that he was the chief designer of the BD-5J too, when it's well
known that 90% of the -5J is identical to the -5B, which was designed well
before he came to Bede Aircraft. I've also got his communications to
customers in my reference library on my web site. Come read them and then
tell me about how "frustrated" he was with the aircraft. Talk to Corkey
Fornof as well.
> I think we already know the answer here. Corkey is an exceptional pilot,
and
> he enjoyed the -5, as did many other pilots. Now does that mean it was
> certifiable, I think not.
Ask him that question.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
"C.D.Damron" <dam...@lex.infi.net> wrote in message
news:98ljv9$ggf$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
What can I say, logic can be confusing sometimes, I guess. <g>
Juan
FLD51@remove_this_spamblock
wrote:
...and next, juan, jim and bill will define "is" for us.
alan staats
FLD51@[REMOVE THIS SPAMBLOCK]pacbell.net
www.flightleveldesign.com
Jim VanDervort
how EASY it is to operate)
I never have flown any airplane that was easier to land or take off under
adverse conditions.
Kinda waters down the "hero-pilot" aspect when you know this <G>
JimV.
"Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:q2sr6.408544$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
DJFawcett26
>DOJ ti would not have stopped anyone from filing state charges.
Dear Juan,
Before you speak with such conviction, you should check your facts. You will
find out that Jim did sign a Consent Degree with the US Justice Department over
the BD-5 debacle. As I said before, the terms were no accepting of deposits in
ANY business for a period of 10 years. I might add, within weeks after the
expiration of the decree, Jim started accepting deposits on the BD-10 - LOL.
I must say blind faith is absolutely wonderful.
DJFawcett26
>and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before delivery
>that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
>
Juan, please don't insult our intelligence. Obviously, you have never bought a
car that WAS ORDERED FROM THE FACTORY with your color, interior, engine, etc.
Juan, take a deep breath, sit back, and think about what you are saying. You
are as far blindly to the right, as many are blindly to the left.
I realize you think the world of Jim and his designs, but your conclusion are
based on facts that are simply not correct. The majority of your conclusions
are based on discussions with Jim (as you have stated in the past). Do you
really believe he is going to tell you "I really screwed this up".
Jim doesn't have I in his vocabulary when it comes to taking blame, but does
when it comes to taking the praise.
Juan, you have never worked for Jim, however you are correcting people that
have. Trust me, you know very little about the true facts. Otherwise, you
would not have made some of the statements in the past.
Jim is an extraordinary visionary, but he is NOT an executor. Support and
defend that, but stop trying to justify his business practices (failures).
John Kunkel
>
> "John Kunkel" <JohnL...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3AAD2873...@worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > Most kit owners that I know of were missing a lot more than
> > just the power train especially the later priority numbers.
>
> Exactly how many it owners do you know, John?
Right now? None, but in the past when I was active, I knew dozens. None
received a complete kit.
> The key to your argument is proving that the non-delivery was intentional.
> It was not.
You know that for a fact? He kept taking orders and deposits right up to
the bitter end. At some point, near the end, he had to know that he
couldn't deliver with the funds currently available.
Think well of him if you must, but I say he's a crook and a shyster.
John
Richard Isakson
> If you abandone something you figure out won't work at transonic speeds,
how
> does that prove that they abandoned the possibility of going supersonic?
> Your logic is incorrect.
Ah, Juan? How do you get supersonic without going through the transonic
speeds?
Rich
highflyer
> No, it's not, because when you buy a new car, the car is there, complete,
> and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before delivery
> that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
Of course, no one will sell you a car when there is no engine for it.
That would be criminal. Unless, of course, Jim Bede does it. Then
it is "standard industry practice."
Sheeesh. Apples and oranges indeed!
--
HighFlyer
Highflight Aviation Services
highflyer
>
> The probability of finding solutions for technological problems which have
> not yet been solved because the industry has not reached that far yet has
> nothing to do with "being open". You want to talk about being open, come
> read the files in the referefence library of my web site.
>
> Juan
Promising to develop something that does not yet exist is not a problem.
Selling something that does not yet exist, taking money for something
that does not exist, and promising to DELIVER something that does not
exist IS a problem.
The industry standard says you don't sell it or deliver it until you
have it. If you never get it, people are disappointed, but not robbed.
DJFawcett26
That's interesting Juan, he is my partner along with Mark.
>The rocket engine idea was a
>marketing idea, not something they wanted to do for a customer so he could
>fly it that way.
Wrong again, Juan. I was there. The customer was not a homebuilt customer.>
And the program was taken away from BD well before he could
>have made such a decision.
Obviously, you have been talking to Jim. That would be his "company line
answer".
>No, Bede did NOT control the flight testing because the prototype was NOT
>being used for that. Those aircraft were built by Peregrine, not Bede. Get
>your facts straight.
I never said Bede controled Preregrine flight testing. He had absolutely
nothing to do with it. The point being made is that Jim controlled the
Prototype and HE elected not to do anymore flight testing on his behalf.
>There's one for sale now. $595,000. In Arizona. Interested?
That happens to be the "prototype". Andy Taylor acquired it from the Canadian
group.
>Funny, did Rutan tell you that? <chuckle> Lately he's been claiming in
>articles that he was the chief designer of the BD-5J too, when it's well
>known that 90% of the -5J is identical to the -5B, which was designed well
>before he came to Bede Aircraft.
If this isn't "rich", I don't know what is.
Ross Carlisle
wbill...@aol.com wrote on 3/9/01 10:40 PM:
>
> I don't mean to sound stupid because I'm not. But I am ignorant. I've been
> building and flying stuff since I was in High School 40 years ago but I never
> had any money. So, I built simple stuff for awhile. I never even looked at
> the Bede stuff. It was too expensive for me for 30 years or so while I was
> working for a living. I never followed the storys of the grown ups and guys
> who had money and bought the Bede stuff. And, even at this point I am
> IGNORANT
> of what happened. I'm not stupid....I'm IGNORANT. Big difference. I'd like
> to start a thread where we can talk about Bede. What the hell did he do that
> pissed so many of you off? Did he take money and not deliver? Yes, maybe?
> How about his designs? I saw the BD-5J fly twice and dreamed of owning one.
> What's the truth on these issues. I really don't know.
>
> Was Bede a crook like Fetters? I say "crook" because I consider anyone who
> takes money for a kit and doesn't supply it a crook. But, I really want to
> know about the quality of materials and the design? What do you smart people
> think?
>
> Bill PHillips
I dont think he was a crook...Just a guy with greater aspirations than
ability. It doesnt appear that he ever intended to rip anyone off. His
planes are usually so exotic that there are bound to be problems. I think
the BD5 and 5J are successes even though they exist in such small numbers.
The BD10J was/is very cool, but far too advanced a concept for a hombuilt
design. I recall reading that it would be the first supersonic homebuilt.
This was of course before some flight testing reveiled some high speed
aerodynamic problems.
I think the BD5 series is worth a look if you have the cash and want a very
high performance plane. I would live to build a 5J someday. I think the
kit from BD Micro goes for about 60K with engine...Someday.
Ross
BOb U.
>I dont think he was a crook...Just a guy with greater aspirations than
>ability. It doesnt appear that he ever intended to rip anyone off. His
>planes are usually so exotic that there are bound to be problems. I think
>the BD5 and 5J are successes even though they exist in such small numbers.
>The BD10J was/is very cool, but far too advanced a concept for a hombuilt
>design. I recall reading that it would be the first supersonic homebuilt.
>This was of course before some flight testing reveiled some high speed
>aerodynamic problems.
>
>I think the BD5 series is worth a look if you have the cash and want a very
>high performance plane. I would live to build a 5J someday. I think the
>kit from BD Micro goes for about 60K with engine...Someday.
>
>Ross
Wadda ya know.
P.T. Barnum was right.... sorta.
"By the way, the only phrase that he is currently famous
for is A sucker is born every minute. Strangely enough,
he never said this. It was actually stated by his competitor -
a banker named David Hannum, owner of the Cardiff Giant
(which later turned out to be a hoax)."
http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/barnum/barnum.html
SOB
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
Juan Jimenez <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
>news:20010311234058...@nso-co.aol.com...
>
>> BUT, they paid for ALL portions of their aircraft including the DRIVE SYSTEM,
>> ENGINE, and PROP. The point remains that they DID NOT RECEIVE what they PAID
>> for and BEDE knew that he did not have a viable Engine, Drive system and Prop
>> when he shipped the kits and accepted full payments for those aircraft. You
>> can whitewash it all you want but it will never change the facts.
>
>Let's try this again, slower.
>
>H-o-w d-o y-o-u s-h-i-p s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
>h-a-v-e?
Exactly! And you don't take money for something you can't ship!
Brian
Richard Isakson
> I think the BD5 series is worth a look if you have the cash and want a
very
> high performance plane.
Ross,
Go to the NTSP site and do search on the BD-5. You'll find the -5 has a
very high major injury/death rate for such a small base of airplanes that
are actually flying. As I read through the accidents, it occurred to me
that as long as the engine is running there's no problem with the airplane.
Unless you spin it. The problems happen when the engine stops. There are
lots of reasons for the engine stoppages but, once it stops, the bad
characteristics of the airplane bite the pilot. The wing is too small to
start with. The structure of the wing causes upper skin buckling that
destroys wing's aerodynamics. These factors cause a very high power off
approach speed and descent rate. The propeller is disconnected from the
engine and it's windmilling causing a high drag that increases the descent
rate. The pilot has to land but, because of the high descent rate, he
doesn't have many choices. The plane comes over the fence at a very high
speed and the under-designed landing gear doesn't do any good on rough
fields. The cockpit section has no crashworthiness built into it and you
have another statistic. As everyone says, the problem is the engine but
there is no engine of that size that has a decent reliability. By the way,
Bede is repeating many of the same mistakes in the BD-17.
Rich
Ross Carlisle
N86...@hotmail.net wrote on 3/13/01 2:42 PM:
You're calling me a sucker because I like the BJ-5? Maybe with someone else
building kits the BD-5 is worth looking at. Am I defending Jim Bede? No
way. Would I give BD Micro a deposit on a kit? No way. But I would drive
to thier shop with a trailer and write a check for a complete kit.
I also dont think he intentionally did what he did. I think he is a decent
idea man and a very bad business man. It happens all the time. And I still
think the BD5J is cool. Ive seen them fly and if I had the expendable cash
to build one and get some sort of training Id buy a kit....Ummm...A complete
kit.
I would not send any kitplane maker a deposit for a kit. I would go to the
factory with a trailer and write a check. Too many of them play games with
deposit money and too many of them go belly up with customers deposit money.
Ross
Ross Carlisle
r...@whidbey.com wrote on 3/13/01 3:54 PM:
I know all about the accident rate and the problems. Ive followed the plane
for a number of years. I read that BD Micro has made alot of improvements.
I am aware though that the plane is not a piper cub. The A model wing is a
big no-no. But ive heard that the B model is a little more tame.
I also think that anyone that climbs into the cockpit should have lots of
time in fast high performance planes...which I do.
Again...Im not defending Jim Bede...I just like the plane. If Im wrong, and
BD Micro is up to the same games that Bede was up ...Then appologies.
Ross
RobertR237
<rrc...@concentric.net> writes:
>
>I dont think he was a crook...Just a guy with greater aspirations than
>ability. It doesnt appear that he ever intended to rip anyone off. His
>planes are usually so exotic that there are bound to be problems. I think
>the BD5 and 5J are successes even though they exist in such small numbers.
>The BD10J was/is very cool, but far too advanced a concept for a hombuilt
>design. I recall reading that it would be the first supersonic homebuilt.
>This was of course before some flight testing reveiled some high speed
>aerodynamic problems.
>
>I think the BD5 series is worth a look if you have the cash and want a very
>high performance plane. I would live to build a 5J someday. I think the
>kit from BD Micro goes for about 60K with engine...Someday.
>
>Ross
>
>
To tell the truth, I didn't think Bede was a crook either but when the same
process is repeated over and over with the same results, I have to believe it's
no accident.
Bob Reed
http://robertr237.virtualave.net/ (KIS Project)
KIS Cruiser in progress...2001 Oshkosh Odessy ;-) (I can hope!)
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the
Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freidman)
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>And as usual you choose to ignore the fact that delivery of the engine and
>drive system did not happen because of factors completely outside of Bede's
>control. If you're going to state facts, state them in full, not just what
>suits your twist of the events.
>
>> That is the same as going out to day and buying a new car, paying full
>price and
>> expecting to get and engine, transmission and wheels but only receiving
>the
>> body.
>
>No, it's not, because when you buy a new car, the car is there, complete,
>and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before delivery
>that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
>
>Juan
>
You continue to amaze me with you logic (or lack of logic). I would give you a
logical reply to your nonsense but I see that several others have stepped to
the line with enough valid points that it's not necessary and besides, it's
wasted effort on you.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> W-H-Y d-o y-o-u S-E-L-L s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
>h-a-v-e,
>> e-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y
>> w-h-e-n y-o-u d-a-m-n w-e-l-l k-n-o-w y-o-u d-o-n-'t h-a-v-e
>> i-t t-o s-e-l-l?
>
>B-e-c-a-u-s-e i-t-s s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e i-n t-h-e
>i-n-d-u-s-t-r-y.
>
>It's the way 99% of aircraft are sold.
>
>Juan
>
No Jaun, it's not the way 99% of the aircraft are sold. Honest people don't
sell thousands of a product when they know they don't have the product to sell
and that goes for the aircraft companies as well.
RobertR237
<N86...@hotmail.net> writes:
>
>
>>Those are the FACTS which you can not deny.
>>
>>Bob Reed
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Juan has been in a state of denial since day one.
>What makes you think this will suddenly change now? <g>
>
>
>BOb U.
>
>
I don't think anything would change the adoration that Jaun has for Bede but I
am hopeful that nobody reading this group will ever consider paying Jim Bede
one single cent without the knowledge of his record. At least I can do that
much.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>> As you said in another post, 20/20 hindsight is the only reason I know of.
>I
>> didn't because at that time I didn't know any better and besides it wasn't
>> worth the few hundred dollars I lost to even try to recoop it, besides the
>line
>> was too damn long.
>
>Come on, Bob. You talked to a lawyer. You considered suing for the money.
>But you didn't know that you could file fraud charges? Hmm.
>
Excuse me but where and when did I say that I had talked to a lawyer. Nope,
never did and didn't even consider suing at the time. In fact, I believed the
hype that Jim put out at the time but have learned much since then which would
now qualify as 20/20 hindsight.
>> At this point, I don't care about sending him to jail but I
>> will warn others to be aware of his past record and not give him a dime
>unless
>> you walk out with everything you pay for.
>
>That's your prerogative.
>
>Juan
>
Yep, and I will continue to blow the horn so that others will not be so blind
to the hype.
RobertR237
<fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>> GOOD but not Good Enough to keep them from coming back and doing the same
>thing
>> again and again. Sorry Jaun, but I don't feel sorry for them even one
>little
>> bit, at least they had the money to loose.
>
>I guess you've never heard of people getting knocked down and getting back
>up to try again. You should have seen the Ruiz-Hollyfield fight. It would
>have taught you something about life.
>
>Juan
>
>
I don't need to watch a couple of idiots knocking each others brains out to
learn something about life. Thanks to Jim Bede, I learned that a fast talking
con man can make you believe just about anything ONCE. The secret to life is
to not make the same mistake twice which is one secret that Bede has yet to
learn.
Craig C.
>
>The probability of finding solutions for technological problems which have
>not yet been solved because the industry has not reached that far yet has
>nothing to do with "being open". You want to talk about being open, come
>read the files in the referefence library of my web site.
If you had carefully read my comments, you would have noted that they
were not in refernce to any particular design Juan. I used to be
involved in flight testing equipment that is leading edge technology
for aircraft. Much of it is still at least 10-20 years ahead of
anything you will see in the homebuilt industry and at least 5 years
ahead of anything in the commercial market
If you don't know there is a problem with your product you damn sure
can't fix it. If there is a problem and you cover it up, you open
yourself up to lots of other problems...namely liability.
Personally, I believe that Bede is flake that happens to have some
good basic ideas, but couldn't engineer his way out of a wet paper
bag, but has the gift of being a conartist. He has some intersting
designs, but the execution is poor. The only reason that the Grumman
programs ever flew, was that Bede wasn't in control, and Grumman had a
good engineering staff to do all the follow thru that a developement
program requires.
As to the openess of your reference...I would have to see the
completely unedited source material as well as all the crosschecking
notes to get a true opinion on Bede. Anyone with as much involvement
in the design that you have cannot produce a completely unbiased
history....not casting aspersions on you, but it is a proven fact in
the research world. When you are as close to the subject as you are,
you always have peer review of anything you publish that is supposedly
all factual.
Craig C.
Dave Hyde
> What can I say, logic can be confusing sometimes, I guess. <g>
So can aerodynamics, you'd do well to study harder. The
stabilator was abandoned for low-speed handling problems,
but is pretty much mandatory for transonic and supersonic
requirements.
When pilot reports indicate the airplane maxed out at
~0.85M it's a good indication that supersonic flight
in anything but a descending or decelerating condition
was a dream. Of course a fixed-inlet, fixed-exit, non-
afterburning J-85 and a fishbowl canopy were other good
indicators, but people besides aerodynamicists were writing
the ad copy.
Dave 'wave drag' Hyde
na...@brick.net
BOb U.
>You continue to amaze me with you logic (or lack of logic). I would give you a
>logical reply to your nonsense but I see that several others have stepped to
>the line with enough valid points that it's not necessary and besides, it's
>wasted effort on you.
>
>
>Bob Reed
Yep!
May I second that.
I've certainly been observing Juan long enough to share your thoughts.
Jerry Springer
>
> In article <Easr6.408597$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "Juan Jimenez"
> <fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >>
> >> GOOD but not Good Enough to keep them from coming back and doing the same
> >thing
> >> again and again. Sorry Jaun, but I don't feel sorry for them even one
> >little
> >> bit, at least they had the money to loose.
> >
> >I guess you've never heard of people getting knocked down and getting back
> >up to try again. You should have seen the Ruiz-Hollyfield fight. It would
> >have taught you something about life.
> >
> >Juan
> >
> >
>
> I don't need to watch a couple of idiots knocking each others brains out to
> learn something about life. Thanks to Jim Bede, I learned that a fast talking
> con man can make you believe just about anything ONCE. The secret to life is
> to not make the same mistake twice which is one secret that Bede has yet to
> learn.
>
> Bob Reed
Also even the loser gets paid in Juan's example so no one really loses.
Poor example Juan.
Jerry Springer
Jerry Springer
>
> In article <m1sr6.408535$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "Juan Jimenez"
> <fly...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> >And as usual you choose to ignore the fact that delivery of the engine and
> >drive system did not happen because of factors completely outside of Bede's
> >control. If you're going to state facts, state them in full, not just what
> >suits your twist of the events.
> >
> >> That is the same as going out to day and buying a new car, paying full
> >price and
> >> expecting to get and engine, transmission and wheels but only receiving
> >the
> >> body.
> >
> >No, it's not, because when you buy a new car, the car is there, complete,
> >and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before delivery
> >that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
> >
> >Juan
> >
>
> You continue to amaze me with you logic (or lack of logic). I would give you a
> logical reply to your nonsense but I see that several others have stepped to
> the line with enough valid points that it's not necessary and besides, it's
> wasted effort on you.
>
> Bob Reed
Bob I would think that by this time you would have a gigantic headache from
beating it against the proverbial brick wall.
Jerry Springer
Jerry Springer
>
> "RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> >
> > OK Jaun, now you answer this one....
> >
> >
> > W-H-Y d-o y-o-u S-E-L-L s-o-m-e-t-h-i-n-g y-o-u d-o-n-t
> h-a-v-e,
> > e-s-p-e-c-i-a-l-l-y
> > w-h-e-n y-o-u d-a-m-n w-e-l-l k-n-o-w y-o-u d-o-n-'t h-a-v-e
> > i-t t-o s-e-l-l?
>
> B-e-c-a-u-s-e i-t-s s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d p-r-a-c-t-i-c-e i-n t-h-e
> i-n-d-u-s-t-r-y.
>
> It's the way 99% of aircraft are sold.
>
> Juan
My guess is that Van's aircraft sells more than 1% of the kit aircraft sold
each year and he does not d-o b-u-s-i-n-e-s-s t-h-a-t w-a-y-.
BOb U.
>You're calling me a sucker because I like the BJ-5?
Nope.
Naive and immature would be more like it on this count.
>Maybe with someone else
>building kits the BD-5 is worth looking at. Am I defending Jim Bede? No
>way. Would I give BD Micro a deposit on a kit? No way. But I would drive
>to thier shop with a trailer and write a check for a complete kit.
Not a sucker, then.
My mistake.
I'd now say you are misguided soul with a very short life expectancy.
The NTSB reports speaks volumes and you say you are aware of all this
and much more.
Like a number of Mini-500 owners, you are hooked.
The sweet siren beckons.... and you cannot resist the temptation even with full
knowledge of past lives lost. You think you can avoid the mistakes of others.
And so it goes.
>I also dont think he intentionally did what he did. I think he is a decent
>idea man and a very bad business man. It happens all the time. And I still
>think the BD5J is cool. Ive seen them fly and if I had the expendable cash
>to build one and get some sort of training Id buy a kit....Ummm...A complete
>kit.
Never get so emotionally wound up to let a potential killer get the best of you.
Nothing cool in landing out in a plane that has less room than a sardine can
and usually a jury rigged propulsion system that stinks even more.
Like the stock market....
If you want a decent shot of long term winning,
you gotta make sound decisions concerning mathematical probabilities.
I know I can fly a BD-5 and survive it once, twice, etc.
Can I fly it with the statistical confidence and safety of my RV-3?
Nope.
An addicted, reckless GAMBLER, I am not.
>I would not send any kitplane maker a deposit for a kit. I would go to the
>factory with a trailer and write a check. Too many of them play games with
>deposit money and too many of them go belly up with customers deposit money.
So, you're smart with your money, but a spendthrift with your one and only life.
That's what I think.
BOb U.
DJFawcett26
>programs ever flew, was that Bede wasn't in control, and Grumman had a
>good engineering staff to do all the follow thru that a developement
>program requires.
You are very on point Craig. Jim's execution is non-existent.
Actually, Grumman wasn't the outfit that made the aircraft work, they bought a
completed product (they may have done the tail mod, but I am not sure). What
really happened is a story in its self.
Jim managed to "piss off" the investors (sounds sort of familiar) because he
kept falling behind schedule - dramatically. The reason is that he was
unsuccessful in obtaining an adhesive that would work to assemble the airframe
(rather new to general aviation at the time). He continued to fail at that
task many times over (you would think the man would have picked up the phone
and ask a major aerospace firm for suggestions - it was being done there).
The investors said enough is enough and gave Jim a swift kick in the ass out.
They installed a bright young attorney out of Cleveland, Ohio to take over the
project and oversee it to conclusion. His name was Meyers (you got it, the
same Meyers of Cessna fame and current Chairman of the Board). Meyers didn't
know "squat" about aviation at the time, but he did know how to pick up the
phone - LOL. And that he did.
After bringing in several "high end engineers" and consulting with the majors
concerning the adhesive problem, an airplane was born. The rest is history. I
believe he also negotiated the Grumman deal but I am not sure about that.
There was some different wrinkles to the deal, but I just can't remember.
To this day, Jim can not stand Meyers or Cessna. As a matter of fact, he was
terrible concerned they may win the JPATS program. He was real thrilled when
Beechcraft won.
Best Regards
Dave Hyde
> By the way, Bede is repeating many of the same mistakes in the BD-17.
Speaking of repeating, from http://www.bedecorp.com/info.htm:
"Micro Systems Inc. [...] has selected the BD-10 [...]
on the basis of the plane's supersonic capability..."
Must've been some serious redesign. Funny, I thought
the -10 was out of his hands now.
Dave 'consider the source' Hyde
na...@brick.net
BOb U.
>> By the way, Bede is repeating many of the same mistakes in the BD-17.
>
>Speaking of repeating, from http://www.bedecorp.com/info.htm:
^
Doesn't work with the :
^
http://www.bedecorp.com/info.htm
SOB
DJFawcett26
>ruled fuselage, you don't have an afterburner and you don't have an
>all flying tail, you aren't doing mach. If I know that, Jim Bede
>should know that. If he knew it and sold the -10 as supersonic, it's
>fraud.
Jim didn't know that. As a matter of fact though, he did tell me the aircraft
was area ruled
DJFawcett26
It is
>"Micro Systems Inc. [...] has selected the BD-10 [...]
>on the basis of the plane's supersonic capability..."
they did
Richard Lamb
back in the early 60's. Now, to make it happen!
I found out last night that I'm number two in line for
this project. Oh well, if I get it - great.
If not - still great (cuz I get to build it too!)
This project has an O-290-D2 with it.
I had sorta thought I'd want more power, but the
local TW guys say not to bother. My thinking is
that it gets a touch warm down here in the summer
(south Texas!) and the extra 25 hp might be helpful.
Anybody have any first hand experience with a W-10
on 125 hp?
Jim VanDervort wrote:
>
> Way to go - you won't be sorry.
>
> assa9
>
> "Richard Lamb" <lam...@flash.net> wrote in message
> news:3AAE1F33...@flash.net...
> > I ordered the W-10 plans.
> > Then a neighbor located a 50% done project.
> > It would be a good year or so head start!
> >
> > Jim VanDervort wrote:
> > >
> > > Ya know, I don't have a dog in this fight
> > > (for which I am eternally grateful).
> > > I picked Steve Wittman to be a better man and airplane builder.
> > > I built a Tailwind and have had it all over the US and some of Canada.
> > > Certainly didn't have to wonder if it was going to work or not.
> > > Some things are better off left alone.
> > > I felt this way about Bede.
> > > I has worked for me.
> > >
> > > assa9
> > >
> > > "Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1P7r6.402205$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > > > "walt harper" <metr...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:98ghml$l...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> > > > > Jim Bede is the one story everyone in hombuilding needs to know for
> many
> > > > > reasons. His Bd-1 set motorgliding records,
> > > >
> > > > Not the BD-1, the BD-2. Too bad the electrical system failed on the
> > > > round-the-world flight. That would have been one heck of a record.
> > > >
> > > > > the BD-4 was supposed to be
> > > > > "read the book, build the airplane" even though it would take a
> long,
> > > long
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > The BD-4 does take time to build, but I would not classify it as a
> "long,
> > > > long time". Any kit can take a long time if you don't plan for it and
> > > don't
> > > > dedicate the money and time required to finish it. I know people who
> have
> > > > finished BD-5's in months, and I know one person who took 25 yrs to
> finish
> > > > his. ??
> > > >
> > > > > The deposits, parts, and planes
> > > > > were never delivered-bankruptcy. and the deaths attibutable to aft
> CG
> > > > > loading were never forgiven.
> > > >
> > > > Wait a minute. Do you blame Bede for the actions of people that didn't
> > > > calculate their CG's properly and didn't apply the correct fwd
> ballast?
> > > > You've got to be kididng me.
> > > >
> > > > Juan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Richard Lamb
> >
> > email: lam...@flash.net
> > web: http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
--
Richard Lamb
email: lam...@flash.net
web: http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
Richard Lamb
programmers and philosophy students.
I've heard some real howls from the programmers, who
consistentantly choke on that Maybe gate...
Richard Lamb
But it's history - not current - for military aircraft.
Area ruling really only works for a narrow speed range.
Today, engines have developed way past such efficiency needs.
Screw efficiency - gimme RAW POWER!
Walt Lear wrote:
> If he didn't he shouldn't have been designing anything that flies, let
> alone anything with a jet engine. I only had 1 semester of aircraft
> design. It's in any history of supersonic flight you can read.
>
> Look at any airplane that is area ruled. See the constriction in the
> fuselage where the wing joins it? That's the area ruling, spreading
> out the pressure spike. It's not on the -10.
RobertR237
<N86...@hotmail.net> writes:
>
>>You continue to amaze me with you logic (or lack of logic). I would give
>you a
>>logical reply to your nonsense but I see that several others have stepped to
>>the line with enough valid points that it's not necessary and besides, it's
>>wasted effort on you.
>>
>>
>>Bob Reed
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Yep!
>May I second that.
>I've certainly been observing Juan long enough to share your thoughts.
>
>SOB
>
>
Careful SOB, you start agreeing with me and you will ruin both our reputations.
<G>
RobertR237
<jsf...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>> You continue to amaze me with you logic (or lack of logic). I would give
>you a
>> logical reply to your nonsense but I see that several others have stepped
>to
>> the line with enough valid points that it's not necessary and besides, it's
>> wasted effort on you.
>>
>> Bob Reed
>
>Bob I would think that by this time you would have a gigantic headache from
>beating it against the proverbial brick wall.
>
>Jerry Springer
>
Well, I do have a headache but not from beating it against this proverbial
brick wall. I just spent the last 5 months converting a three-tierd Sybase
system to Oracle. Now that was cause for a headache. The good news is that
with only 12 hours of down time over a weekend the conversion was perfect and
the monthend close was a non-event. NOW I can finally quit working 70 hours a
week and start working on my plane again. This little tit-ta-tat with Jaun is
a minor skirmish that is more amusement than headache. It has actually been a
source of an occasional good laugh at watching Jaun defend his idol.
Ronald James Wanttaja
Walt Lear <wl...@techie.com> wrote:
>>
>>My guess is that Van's aircraft sells more than 1% of the kit aircraft sold
>>each year and he does not d-o b-u-s-i-n-e-s-s t-h-a-t w-a-y-.
Oooo, statistics. I've got the FAA database for July 1997 and December
2000.
Net increase in number of registered homebuilts from 7/97 to 12/2000: 3,461
Net increase in number of RV aircraft during same period: 762
RV percentage: 22%
("Net Increase" is the aircraft added to the registration between the
two dates, minus those removed from the database. "RV Aircraft" are
those regisrations that can parse any variation on RV-3, RV-4, RV-6,
RV-8, and RV-9 in either the Manufacturer or Model element).
>A few years ago before Cessna went back into business the Lycoming
>people told me that Vans was the third largest consumer of new
>Lycoming engines in the world, behind Aerospacial and Robinson. And
>only a fraction of the people building RVs use new engines. I'd
>guess Vans is putting out at least 10% of the new airplanes that fly,
>maybe as much as 30%.
Total aircraft registrations, 1997: 192,414 (FAA Figure)
Total aircraft registrations, 1999: 219,464 (FAA Figure)
(Total for 2000, RJW projection: 233,000
Total homebuilt registrations, 1997: 19,350
Total homebuilt registrations, 2000: 22,811
(Above numbers RJW computation, based on aircraft Airworthiness
Classification)
Total RV aircraft, 1997: 1,914
Total RV aircraft, 2000: 2,670
(RJW determination, ALL regisrations, includes N-number reservations)
Percentage of increase in total registrations: 21% (since 1997)
Percentage of increase in homebuilt registrations: 17.8% (since 1997)
Percentage of RV aircraft in aircraft added to registation since 1997: 1.8%
In other words, less than two out of every 100 new aircraft is an RV.
However, one out of every five new homebuilts is an RV....
This doesn't include non-US RVs, of course....
Oh, and just to through some more fuel on the fire: More BD-5s were
added to the regisration database from 7/97 to 12/2000 than Fly Babies.
Or Lancair IVPs.
Ron Wanttaja
want...@halcyon.com
http://www.halcyon.com/wanttaja/
Dave Hyde
> >"Micro Systems Inc. [...] has selected the BD-10 [...]
> >on the basis of the plane's supersonic capability..."
>
> they did
In the fixed-inlet, fixed-exhaust, fishbowl canopy,
single non-afterburning J-85-equipped configuration
we've been discussing? If so, there's something to
the wordsmithing I don't get. I sure don't believe
it was capable of supersonic flight in that
configuration. If there's quantitative data published
that inidicates that it was, point me to it.
Dave 'speed of heat' Hyde
na...@brick.net
Jim VanDervort
It seems like enough for me.
cruise 150 easy (at 8500 ft)
I'm at gross most of the time, and it gets up there ok.
assa9
"Richard Lamb" <lam...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3AAF9F1C...@flash.net...
ChuckSlusarczyk
>When pilot reports indicate the airplane maxed out at
>~0.85M it's a good indication that supersonic flight
>in anything but a descending or decelerating condition
>was a dream. Of course a fixed-inlet, fixed-exit, non-
>afterburning J-85 and a fishbowl canopy were other good
>indicators, but people besides aerodynamicists were writing
>the ad copy.
Hmmm,I find it hard to believe that the "worlds most experienced aviation
writer" would not have come to the same conclusion. The non AB J-85 was a big
hint by itself. But I guess he was hoping BD would advertize with him and he
swallowed the BD ad copy hook ,line and sinker. What a phoney...
Chuck(B-70 inlet studies at NASA)Slusarczyk
DJFawcett26
>single non-afterburning J-85-equipped configuration
>we've been discussing? If so, there's something to
>the wordsmithing I don't get. I sure don't believe
>it was capable of supersonic flight in that
configuration.
You are right, the aircraft was incapable of supersonic flight. However, Micro
believed it was capable (Bede salesmanship). The drone configuration was
pretty much the same other than the canopy being replaced cover for the bay.
Ben Sego
> The same college class (Logic 101) is used for both
> programmers and philosophy students.
>
> I've heard some real howls from the programmers, who
> consistentantly choke on that Maybe gate...
Well, some of us are better at it now, since "fuzzy logic" got
formalized. And you just wait till we get our hands on some quantum
computing gear. That's much more confusing than your average everyday
"maybe."
B.S.
Richard Lamb
That little box is pretty dog-gone efficient!
Ben Sego
<snip>
> Oh, and just to through some more fuel on the fire: More BD-5s were
> added to the regisration database from 7/97 to 12/2000 than Fly Babies.
> Or Lancair IVPs.
So tell, me Ron, just how does MoonRaker do in the transonic region? 'Course, you
probably hit the Mach wall before you go transonic. (You'll want to tuck in the
fuselage at the wing root; you'd be surprised how much that will help. See the
YF-102A or the F-106 for inspiration.) And how is the pressurization mod working
out?
Ben "Whitcomb" Sego
Juan Jimenez
<FLD51@[REMOVE_THIS_SPAMBLOCK]pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3aae4f95...@news.primenet.com...
> >The key to your argument is proving that the non-delivery was
intentional.
> >It was not.
> >
> >Juan
> >
> >
> >
> ...and next, juan, jim and bill will define "is" for us.
<chuckle> Boy that sure is one that will be around LONG after Clinton's dead
and gone...
Juan Jimenez
"Dave Hyde" <na...@brick.net> wrote in message
news:3AAECA61...@brick.net...
>
> When pilot reports indicate the airplane maxed out at
> ~0.85M it's a good indication that supersonic flight
> in anything but a descending or decelerating condition
> was a dream.
I would rephrase that to state that it was a condition that pointed to a
need for changes to the design.
The question is, who decided not to proceed with a redesign to achieve the
supersonic performance? Bede may have decided to proceed with the subsonic
program and then make the changes to the design after the kits were being
sold and delivered in qty. The people I've talked to who bought into the
program and actually followed through to construction before Bede lost
control of the program knew of the performance limitations.
Juan
Juan Jimenez
of xwind landings come to mind. ??
"Jim VanDervort" <dpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tasn3qk...@corp.supernews.com...
> (psst, Juan, please don't tell anybody, but the big deal with a Tailwind
is
> how EASY it is to operate)
> I never have flown any airplane that was easier to land or take off under
> adverse conditions.
> Kinda waters down the "hero-pilot" aspect when you know this <G>
>
> JimV.
>
>
> "Juan Jimenez" <fly...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q2sr6.408544$ge4.14...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > There's a Tailwind at the airport where I have my BD. Every time I see
it
> > fly I am amazed at its performance.
> >
> > "Jim VanDervort" <dpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:taq70eg...@corp.supernews.com...
Juan Jimenez
taking deposits again? :)
This is getting even better to read. :)
Juan
"DJFawcett26" <djfaw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010313125443...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> >Don't insult my intelligence. If anybody had reached such an agreement
with
> >DOJ ti would not have stopped anyone from filing state charges.
>
> Dear Juan,
>
> Before you speak with such conviction, you should check your facts. You
will
> find out that Jim did sign a Consent Degree with the US Justice Department
over
> the BD-5 debacle. As I said before, the terms were no accepting of
deposits in
> ANY business for a period of 10 years. I might add, within weeks after
the
> expiration of the decree, Jim started accepting deposits on the BD-10 -
LOL.
>
> I must say blind faith is absolutely wonderful.
Juan Jimenez
> >No, it's not, because when you buy a new car, the car is there, complete,
> >and if someone took out the engine, transmission and wheels before
delivery
> >that IS fraud. Apples and oranges.
> >
>
bought a
> car that WAS ORDERED FROM THE FACTORY with your color, interior, engine,
etc.
No difference. when you special order a car you know that there are cars
available on the lot complete and ready to roll and you also know that other
people already have the car. I stand by what I said. Apples and oranges.
> I realize you think the world of Jim and his designs...
DJ, it's a bad idea to make assumptions about what other people think. Trust
me on that one. I am not debating whether or not Jim's designs are good or
not. Some are good, some are not. I have met Jim and have had numerous
exchanges with him. I've asked him some tough questions about things that
happened and he's always been completely forthright in his answers, with a
luxury of details, and it has all checked out against the information I have
on black and white. There are some things I have not asked of him because I
know the answers. Some things he's done well, some not so well, some very
poorly. But this BS about accusations of fraud from people who have no
inkling of what they are talking about and who consider their viewpoints and
interpretations the only valid ones is baloney.
> The majority of your conclusions
> are based on discussions with Jim (as you have stated in the past).
I have stated quite clearly that my conclusions are based mostly in
documentation that I have and conversations I have had with people who were
there at Bede Aircraft and even worked for the man. Some of the conclusions
I have reached are based on conversations with Jim, but that makes up only a
fraction.
> Do you really believe he is going to tell you "I really screwed this up".
In fact, he has, and has told me in detail what happened, and what he
learned from it.
> Juan, you have never worked for Jim, however you are correcting people
that
> have. Trust me, you know very little about the true facts. Otherwise,
you
> would not have made some of the statements in the past.
Did you work for Jim? When and in what projects?
> Jim is an extraordinary visionary, but he is NOT an executor. Support and
> defend that, but stop trying to justify his business practices (failures).
I've made it amply clear in numerous occassions in the past that I think,
personally, that Bede belongs in the drafting table and in the ops side, not
the marketing or front office sides.
Juan