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Typical charging rate of a car battery (from alternator)
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Existential Angst
Oct 31, 2012, 11:39:12 PM10/31/12
to
Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put in
parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
Have I figgered right?
Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
never "short out", from too many loads?
--
EA
parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
Have I figgered right?
Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
never "short out", from too many loads?
--
EA
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 12:12:10 AM11/1/12
to
the batteries.
Some of the small GM high output alternators cannot put out high
current for a long time without failing. The large-frame old Mopar
units could put out full rated power (I believe theat was as high as
114 amps) day in and day out. The big Lecce Nevilles used in
ambulances and busses were good for full output steadily as well.
Many of the lightweight high amperage units in current use can handle
charging one dead battery with no problem - 2 big ones might be hard
on them.
I know guys who have a switch/relay to disconnect the "coach battery"
and only connect it when the main battery is up to charge to prevent
overloading the alternator. There are kits to beef up the little GM
alternators with a better rear case for better cooling and a stronger
bearing.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 12:22:40 AM11/1/12
to
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:uur398lriagfadns0...@4ax.com...
That's what I plan on doing. The main car batt will never be discharged, so
really the only extra load will be the one or two "carriage" batts in the
back. If I have to charge them one at a time, so be it. Hopefully I won't
learn anything the hard way.
Speaking of learning the hard way, if I do try to charge two farily
discharged batts at once, what might be an indication that it is tough on
the alternator? A low charging voltage? What would approx acceptable
limits be?
fwiw, the two vehicles at hand would be an 04 Nissan Frontier, 07 Honder
Shit, I mean, Fit -- ackshooly a good car, so far. I'd sure hate to have to
change out alternators, tho....
--
EA
news:uur398lriagfadns0...@4ax.com...
really the only extra load will be the one or two "carriage" batts in the
back. If I have to charge them one at a time, so be it. Hopefully I won't
learn anything the hard way.
Speaking of learning the hard way, if I do try to charge two farily
discharged batts at once, what might be an indication that it is tough on
the alternator? A low charging voltage? What would approx acceptable
limits be?
fwiw, the two vehicles at hand would be an 04 Nissan Frontier, 07 Honder
Shit, I mean, Fit -- ackshooly a good car, so far. I'd sure hate to have to
change out alternators, tho....
--
EA
PrecisionmachinisT
Nov 1, 2012, 1:38:07 AM11/1/12
to
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:5091eee3$0$24770$607e...@cv.net...
basically means that it will re-charge a fully dead 40 amp-hour battery in
about one hour.
An average car battery holds ~ 40 ~50 amp-hours, do the math.
Jim Wilkins
Nov 1, 2012, 6:35:39 AM11/1/12
to
http://www.scangauge.com/products/scangaugee/
jsw
Vic Smith
Nov 1, 2012, 7:39:12 AM11/1/12
to
within what it was designed for, Find the particular alt specs.
If you're still thinking about using the car and an inverter for home
power during outages, think small watts, or get a generator.
Cars alts aren't meant for continuous high watts at 120v.
But 500-600 continuous 120v watts from an inverter is easy for a
typical car alt, and so is a peak 1200w for starting a fridge.
You won't hurt your alt or battery.
So figure out what you want to power during an outage.
I'd say if you want more than 600w continuous, get a generator.
The multiple battery issue isn't normally applied to cars.
Check out boat and solar power forums.
I know they use isolator switches to handle loads, but that's just
from reading. I don't even think about adding batteries to a car.
Maybe if I had a truck...
Back to 120v inverters running from a car, the main issue is the
cables. You need something like what's found here.
http://www.donrowe.com/cables/cables.html
Look at the #1/0 AWG CABLES.
That site has a lot of info about inverters.
The cabling is what stopped me. Just didn't want to deal with the
connection issue. Have to remove an engine brace to get at the
battery. There's an easily accessed covered lug for the +, but I'd
have remove the brace to get at the -, or set up a stud to ground on
the engine. Too lazy to do that for something I might never need.
If I ever decide to spend the 4 bills or so for a good set-up I'd do
it. You also need to fuse the cable.
Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
considered.
Anyway. that's about where I stopped thinking about setting up an
inverter. Not many power outages here.
I do like the idea for emergency use.
John B.
Nov 1, 2012, 8:10:04 AM11/1/12
to
discharged battery. If you connect two discharged batteries it doesn't
"short out" it just keeps right on producing its maximum current. You
need to look up what your alternator can put out on a continuous basis
with whatever cooling it has without overheating.
If you have, for example, a 60 amp alternator then the alternator will
put out its maximum 60 amps without damage.... assuming of course that
it doesn't overheat.
Your best bet would be to have a look at some of the yachting or RV
installations where a guy has, say a 6 - 700 AH battery bank and a
single alternator to charge it. Or perhaps have a look at Trojan
Battery's site, they have a lot of information about deep-cycle
battery handling.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 9:08:47 AM11/1/12
to
"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
I have one of the original scangauges. That was the basis for my
disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
mpg's seemed to jump.
Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
But, THIS Q is for sumpn diff: I'll be adding "carriage batts" for an
inverter setup, and am curious about the extra loading of the alt by extra
batts..
I'm hoping johnB is right -- he's saying the max output of an alternator IS
current limited, iow, you *cannot* short out an alternator?? That would be
nice!
--
EA
> jsw
>
news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
mpg's seemed to jump.
Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
But, THIS Q is for sumpn diff: I'll be adding "carriage batts" for an
inverter setup, and am curious about the extra loading of the alt by extra
batts..
I'm hoping johnB is right -- he's saying the max output of an alternator IS
current limited, iow, you *cannot* short out an alternator?? That would be
nice!
--
EA
> jsw
>
m6onz5a
Nov 1, 2012, 9:41:08 AM11/1/12
to
On Nov 1, 9:08 am, "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratla...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:5091eee3$0$24770$607e...@cv.net...
> >> Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put
> >> in parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
> >> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> >> of the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> >> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
> >> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> >> alternator could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
> >> Have I figgered right?
>
> >> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> >> would never "short out", from too many loads?
> >> --
> >> EA
>
> > You can guess how to improve MPG, or you can measure it:
> >http://www.scangauge.com/products/scangaugee/
>
> I have one of the original scangauges. That was the basis for my
> disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
> mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
> mpg's seemed to jump.
> Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
>
>
Solar Panels...
> news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:5091eee3$0$24770$607e...@cv.net...
> >> Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put
> >> in parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
> >> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> >> of the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> >> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
> >> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> >> alternator could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
> >> Have I figgered right?
>
> >> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> >> would never "short out", from too many loads?
> >> --
> >> EA
>
> > You can guess how to improve MPG, or you can measure it:
> >http://www.scangauge.com/products/scangaugee/
>
> I have one of the original scangauges. That was the basis for my
> disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
> mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
> mpg's seemed to jump.
> Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
>
>
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 10:28:23 AM11/1/12
to
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sti498hepchgtdi27...@4ax.com...
was thinking of having two banks of batts, one powering the house, and one
being charged by the car alt, and switching off as nec. Is johnB correct,
that the alternator limits itself to its max safe output?? Still, wearing
out an alternator prematurely is no picnic either.
At any rate, it seems like an alternator for big backup power will be
stressed, either by too many charging batts or too much house load. Unless
I could finagle some kind of current limiter on the alt, so that the size of
a battery bank wouldn't really matter.
> I'd say if you want more than 600w continuous, get a generator.
Yup, that's how I started this, until it grew feet. Sam's Club BlackMax
8750 W (7500 continuous) tested out really well. Noisy, but you could load
the shit out of it, and still have PC-stable power. I was going to do the
tri-fuel conversion.
> The multiple battery issue isn't normally applied to cars.
> Check out boat and solar power forums.
> I know they use isolator switches to handle loads, but that's just
> from reading. I don't even think about adding batteries to a car.
> Maybe if I had a truck...
> Back to 120v inverters running from a car, the main issue is the
> cables. You need something like what's found here.
> http://www.donrowe.com/cables/cables.html
> Look at the #1/0 AWG CABLES.
> That site has a lot of info about inverters.
I found that site. He's serious about inverters!!
> The cabling is what stopped me. Just didn't want to deal with the
> connection issue.
I would use a side/screw terminal batt, and mount the inverter directly to
one battery, via bus-type bars, which you can make out of 1/2" copper
tubing, crushing it flat. Wire gauge is now moot.
If I used a second battery, I'd proly bus-bar that as well, mebbe use the
main section of the copper tube un-flattened, for structural positioning of
the batts in the truck bed.
Have to remove an engine brace to get at the
> battery. There's an easily accessed covered lug for the +, but I'd
> have remove the brace to get at the -, or set up a stud to ground on
> the engine. Too lazy to do that for something I might never need.
> If I ever decide to spend the 4 bills or so for a good set-up I'd do
> it. You also need to fuse the cable.
Well, I wouldn't really deal with the hood battery. I'd use that batt only
in conjunction with the alternator, when charging the inverter batts. So
cabling between the alt/car battery to the inverter batts could be much
thinner, on the order of #12 housewire -- which is actually good for up to
50 amps (not code-wise, of course).
And this strat holds whether your batt/inverter is on the vehicle, or off
the vehicle, as long as the inverter itself is "bussed" to whatever batt
bank you are using.
> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
> considered.
As per the above, you can just leave the car outside, as the only cable(s)
you now have to worry about are 1. the charging cable from the car alt/batt
to the inverter setup, and 2. the AC wire from the inverter output to the
house.
Both are now pretty thin-ish.
> Anyway. that's about where I stopped thinking about setting up an
> inverter. Not many power outages here.
> I do like the idea for emergency use.
I'm forced to do a lot of hanging out in my car/truck, in the cold no less,
so there are many advantages to this system, many applications.
Just one of them being, you'll never need a jump with extra batts!
Proly the *least* practical to all this is the power outage scenario (as I
am realizing), but a cupla cars providing 600 W or so each is a whole lot
better than nothing.
Not many people appreciate the whole risk/reward, cost/benefit of this, re
the probabilities.
But holy shit, people are going to be without power around here for weeks,
and this is the THIRD time in just a cupla years. Funny, prior to all this,
my power was truly erratic, but I lucked out during Irene, the Halloween
snowstorm, and Sandy. But my luck can't hold out forever.
But the probabilities are why I hesitate to go the whole generator route
(again), bec that's no picnic either. But once it actually is set up, it's
pretty seamless. Lotta work, tho.
Most of my neighborhood is without power. I'll see how long it takes them
to get back up, and that will affect my prioritization for another genset.
If it's more than a week, I'll be getting another genset by next summer,
screw the probabilities.... :)
--
EA
>
news:sti498hepchgtdi27...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:39:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put
>>in
>>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>>
>>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
>>of
>>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>>
>>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>>
>>Have I figgered right?
>>
>>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>>never "short out", from too many loads?
>
>
> AFAIK the alt regulator does that just fine by design, so just stay
> within what it was designed for, Find the particular alt specs.
> If you're still thinking about using the car and an inverter for home
> power during outages, think small watts, or get a generator.
> Cars alts aren't meant for continuous high watts at 120v.
> But 500-600 continuous 120v watts from an inverter is easy for a
> typical car alt, and so is a peak 1200w for starting a fridge.
> You won't hurt your alt or battery.
> So figure out what you want to power during an outage.
Along the lines of isolator switches below, and "sparing" the alternator, I
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put
>>in
>>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>>
>>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
>>of
>>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>>
>>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>>
>>Have I figgered right?
>>
>>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>>never "short out", from too many loads?
>
>
> AFAIK the alt regulator does that just fine by design, so just stay
> within what it was designed for, Find the particular alt specs.
> If you're still thinking about using the car and an inverter for home
> power during outages, think small watts, or get a generator.
> Cars alts aren't meant for continuous high watts at 120v.
> But 500-600 continuous 120v watts from an inverter is easy for a
> typical car alt, and so is a peak 1200w for starting a fridge.
> You won't hurt your alt or battery.
> So figure out what you want to power during an outage.
was thinking of having two banks of batts, one powering the house, and one
being charged by the car alt, and switching off as nec. Is johnB correct,
that the alternator limits itself to its max safe output?? Still, wearing
out an alternator prematurely is no picnic either.
At any rate, it seems like an alternator for big backup power will be
stressed, either by too many charging batts or too much house load. Unless
I could finagle some kind of current limiter on the alt, so that the size of
a battery bank wouldn't really matter.
> I'd say if you want more than 600w continuous, get a generator.
8750 W (7500 continuous) tested out really well. Noisy, but you could load
the shit out of it, and still have PC-stable power. I was going to do the
tri-fuel conversion.
> The multiple battery issue isn't normally applied to cars.
> Check out boat and solar power forums.
> I know they use isolator switches to handle loads, but that's just
> from reading. I don't even think about adding batteries to a car.
> Maybe if I had a truck...
> Back to 120v inverters running from a car, the main issue is the
> cables. You need something like what's found here.
> http://www.donrowe.com/cables/cables.html
> Look at the #1/0 AWG CABLES.
> That site has a lot of info about inverters.
> The cabling is what stopped me. Just didn't want to deal with the
> connection issue.
one battery, via bus-type bars, which you can make out of 1/2" copper
tubing, crushing it flat. Wire gauge is now moot.
If I used a second battery, I'd proly bus-bar that as well, mebbe use the
main section of the copper tube un-flattened, for structural positioning of
the batts in the truck bed.
Have to remove an engine brace to get at the
> battery. There's an easily accessed covered lug for the +, but I'd
> have remove the brace to get at the -, or set up a stud to ground on
> the engine. Too lazy to do that for something I might never need.
> If I ever decide to spend the 4 bills or so for a good set-up I'd do
> it. You also need to fuse the cable.
in conjunction with the alternator, when charging the inverter batts. So
cabling between the alt/car battery to the inverter batts could be much
thinner, on the order of #12 housewire -- which is actually good for up to
50 amps (not code-wise, of course).
And this strat holds whether your batt/inverter is on the vehicle, or off
the vehicle, as long as the inverter itself is "bussed" to whatever batt
bank you are using.
> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
> considered.
you now have to worry about are 1. the charging cable from the car alt/batt
to the inverter setup, and 2. the AC wire from the inverter output to the
house.
Both are now pretty thin-ish.
> Anyway. that's about where I stopped thinking about setting up an
> inverter. Not many power outages here.
> I do like the idea for emergency use.
so there are many advantages to this system, many applications.
Just one of them being, you'll never need a jump with extra batts!
Proly the *least* practical to all this is the power outage scenario (as I
am realizing), but a cupla cars providing 600 W or so each is a whole lot
better than nothing.
Not many people appreciate the whole risk/reward, cost/benefit of this, re
the probabilities.
But holy shit, people are going to be without power around here for weeks,
and this is the THIRD time in just a cupla years. Funny, prior to all this,
my power was truly erratic, but I lucked out during Irene, the Halloween
snowstorm, and Sandy. But my luck can't hold out forever.
But the probabilities are why I hesitate to go the whole generator route
(again), bec that's no picnic either. But once it actually is set up, it's
pretty seamless. Lotta work, tho.
Most of my neighborhood is without power. I'll see how long it takes them
to get back up, and that will affect my prioritization for another genset.
If it's more than a week, I'll be getting another genset by next summer,
screw the probabilities.... :)
--
EA
>
mike
Nov 1, 2012, 1:20:04 PM11/1/12
to
If your objective is to have emergency power at home, why do you want to
haul around hundreds of pounds of batteries that don't need charging?
Put the batteries adjacent to the inverter. You want the long cables
from the alternator to the battery at 40 amps instead of between the battery
and inverter at hundreds of amps.
Put a smart trickle charger on the batteries. Hook up the car in an
emergency
to charge 'em when the grid is down. I haven't done measurements in
decades. It would be interesting to know the car engine RPM required
to get 40A out of an alternator.
The primary result of putting the batteries in the vehicle is to reduce
gas mileage and wear out your brakes faster.
Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
pyotr filipivich
Nov 1, 2012, 1:33:56 PM11/1/12
to
mike <ham...@netzero.net> on Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:20:04 -0700 typed in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
If one insists on having 12 volt batteries, one can wire the
batteries into a "charging station" which charges them off main power,
till the power goes out. Add a genset of some sort to recharge them
when the main power is out.
I understand that Coors (of all people) is doing some interesting
work in ceramic batteries, with such an idea in mind.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
batteries into a "charging station" which charges them off main power,
till the power goes out. Add a genset of some sort to recharge them
when the main power is out.
I understand that Coors (of all people) is doing some interesting
work in ceramic batteries, with such an idea in mind.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.
Vic Smith
Nov 1, 2012, 1:39:27 PM11/1/12
to
My favorite idea is to get out of town for the duration, but that's
not practical for many people.
Only conclusion I've come to is if I bought a generator it would run
off natural gas, and if I somehow ended up with a gasoline generator
I'd work out a siphon system from my car gas tank.
Most I went without power was 3 days. What did I miss most?
TV and PC. A battery radio filled in, but I wished I had a TV and my
PC. Damn, it was boring, waiting for the power to come back.
A real good time for a fishing trip.
Jim Wilkins
Nov 1, 2012, 2:17:09 PM11/1/12
to
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message ...
for the current weather forecast, to know whether to open up and
repair or temporarily cover damage.
Recently I bought about the oldest widescreen dual-core laptop that
can run Windows 7 + Media Center and added a USB TV tuner so it gives
me both HDTV from an antenna and Internet from a cell phone modem, or
the landline if it's still up. It consumes 30 - 40W which a truck
battery and inverter will provide for a long time.
Of course, since I was prepared, Sandy didn't knock out power on this
street. Usually here an ice storm means a week's outage.
jsw
> Most I went without power was 3 days. What did I miss most?
> TV and PC. A battery radio filled in, but I wished I had a TV and
> my
> PC. Damn, it was boring, waiting for the power to come back.
> A real good time for a fishing trip.
>
During a power outage I want TV and especially Internet weather radar
> TV and PC. A battery radio filled in, but I wished I had a TV and
> my
> PC. Damn, it was boring, waiting for the power to come back.
> A real good time for a fishing trip.
>
for the current weather forecast, to know whether to open up and
repair or temporarily cover damage.
Recently I bought about the oldest widescreen dual-core laptop that
can run Windows 7 + Media Center and added a USB TV tuner so it gives
me both HDTV from an antenna and Internet from a cell phone modem, or
the landline if it's still up. It consumes 30 - 40W which a truck
battery and inverter will provide for a long time.
Of course, since I was prepared, Sandy didn't knock out power on this
street. Usually here an ice storm means a week's outage.
jsw
Scott Dorsey
Nov 1, 2012, 2:34:26 PM11/1/12
to
In article <k6ub1j$ek6$1...@dont-email.me>, mike <ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
>reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
Until it catches fire and burns your house down. Every harbor freight tool
>
>Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
>reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
I have ever seen has wound up failing in some way that got people injured,
from the anvil that split apart leaving half of it to fall on my foot, to
the spot welder that ignited in my friend's hands.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Vic Smith
Nov 1, 2012, 3:04:40 PM11/1/12
to
On Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:17:09 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message ...
>> Most I went without power was 3 days. What did I miss most?
>> TV and PC. A battery radio filled in, but I wished I had a TV and
>> my
>> PC. Damn, it was boring, waiting for the power to come back.
>> A real good time for a fishing trip.
>>
>During a power outage I want TV and especially Internet weather radar
>for the current weather forecast, to know whether to open up and
>repair or temporarily cover damage.
>
>Recently I bought about the oldest widescreen dual-core laptop that
>can run Windows 7 + Media Center and added a USB TV tuner so it gives
>me both HDTV from an antenna and Internet from a cell phone modem, or
>the landline if it's still up. It consumes 30 - 40W which a truck
>battery and inverter will provide for a long time.
>
That's a good idea, a laptop that pulls in TV. I've resisted laptops,
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message ...
>> Most I went without power was 3 days. What did I miss most?
>> TV and PC. A battery radio filled in, but I wished I had a TV and
>> my
>> PC. Damn, it was boring, waiting for the power to come back.
>> A real good time for a fishing trip.
>>
>During a power outage I want TV and especially Internet weather radar
>for the current weather forecast, to know whether to open up and
>repair or temporarily cover damage.
>
>Recently I bought about the oldest widescreen dual-core laptop that
>can run Windows 7 + Media Center and added a USB TV tuner so it gives
>me both HDTV from an antenna and Internet from a cell phone modem, or
>the landline if it's still up. It consumes 30 - 40W which a truck
>battery and inverter will provide for a long time.
>
but you might have changed my mind. It could pull some double-duty
for vacations too.
>Of course, since I was prepared, Sandy didn't knock out power on this
>street. Usually here an ice storm means a week's outage.
>
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)
Nov 1, 2012, 3:45:19 PM11/1/12
to
inverter bank in the trunk. And it's best if you make a sealed
battery box that is vented to the outside of the trunk top and bottom
- Batteries have Sulfuric Acid inside them and release Hydrogen Gas
when they charge, best to get that outside the car. The little Scoop
Vents and 3" hose from a boating supply will work well for that.
It is NOT recommended, but if you use two 12V Batteries in Parallel,
they must be a matched pair in brand, model, and manufacturing date.
Otherwise one battery with the better connections and/or lower
internal resistance takes all the load and does all the work - then
it shorts out and kills everything. This is bad.
If you need more than 105 AH capacity, it is far better to get two 6V
Deep Cycle Golf Cart batteries (some Costco's stock them) and you wire
them in Series - (-) of #1 to chassis ground, (+) of #1 to (-) of #2,
(+) of #2 to Alternator and Loads. That will give you around 200
amp-hours with GC2 batteries.
DO NOT try running a large inverter off the starting battery - unless
you have a huge alternator that can supply most of the load and you
have the engine running at above 2,000 RPM to get full output, or you
WILL wreck the starting battery by running it down deep.
Second, the regular car battery WILL need recharging after you start
the engine - that was a 250A load you just put on it for 3 to 5
seconds running the starter motor. And since the alternator doesn't
put out full current below about 2000 RPM the battery is supporting
the loads whenever you are sitting at a stoplight at night.
The alternator will not "Short Out" - it tries to put out 13.8V up
till it runs out of current and then the voltage drops to what it can
produce - until it starts to overheat and it cuts itself back. Once
the batteries get charged the current will drop off, and the voltage
will come up to the 13.8V "float charge" level.
Stuff in as much alternator as you can under the hood, so it isn't
hitting that thermal limiter much - lots of cars have optional
heavy-duty alternators available that drop right in and give you a 20A
to 50A bump in output. And you need a heavier cable from the
alternator to the isolator.
If you want more than 120A to 140A output there are new aftermarket
alternators available from several makers, but they aren't cheap. Go
to a smart person running an Auto Electric Shop - they'll know where
to get you rebuilt truck alternators far cheaper, and they'll last
just as long. Sometimes they can put the Truck alternator innards in
a Car alternator case that fits your car.
Or they put in a Leece-Neville where the rectifier diode stack and
regulator are in a separate external box - this is needed on Vans used
as ambulances, where there just isn't any space under that Doghouse
for a physically bigger alternator. They stick the rectifier under the
passenger seat.
Install a Diode Battery Charge Isolator - and be sure to wire the
fourth stud voltage sense lead back to the alternator (follow the
instructions) so the alternator voltage regulator sees the 0.5V drop
through the diodes and adjusts itself up to compensate accordingly.
Most alternators have the external sense lead - If the car maker
leaves that terminal disconnected (normal cars) it uses the Output
wire as the reference source. But if the regulator sees voltage on
that sense line, it switches to that as the voltage reference.
--<< Bruce >>--
mike
Nov 1, 2012, 3:50:53 PM11/1/12
to
On 11/1/2012 11:34 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article<k6ub1j$ek6$1...@dont-email.me>, mike<ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>
>> Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
>> reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
>
> Until it catches fire and burns your house down. Every harbor freight tool
> I have ever seen has wound up failing in some way that got people injured,
> from the anvil that split apart leaving half of it to fall on my foot, to
> the spot welder that ignited in my friend's hands.
> --scott
OK, so spend more money and get something better. Your choice.
> In article<k6ub1j$ek6$1...@dont-email.me>, mike<ham...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>
>> Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
>> reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
>
> Until it catches fire and burns your house down. Every harbor freight tool
> I have ever seen has wound up failing in some way that got people injured,
> from the anvil that split apart leaving half of it to fall on my foot, to
> the spot welder that ignited in my friend's hands.
> --scott
HF seems to be a good source for stuff you'll use rarely or never.
Treat it like the cheap crap that it is and it will last longer...
emphasis on the cheap.
Steve W.
Nov 1, 2012, 4:01:29 PM11/1/12
to
Use the Nissan for charging. It has a 100 amp unit compared to the Fit's
80.
Those numbers are NOT idle numbers, they are at 2,500 rpm. They drop
down a LOT at idle.
If you plan on 50% discharge you don't want auto batteries, you will
have to use deep cycle marine units. Auto batteries won't handle deep
discharges very long before they fail.
Best solution would be to put the batteries in a box in the garage or a
shed (NOT IN THE HOUSE UNLESS YOU BUILD AN EXTERIOR VENTED ENCLOSURE!)
Mount the inverter nearby and use copper buss bars to feed the inverter.
Then use common jumper cables from the car to the batteries to charge
them. Also hook up a good battery maintainer and a solar panel and you
would have reliable long term power. You could add batteries as needed,
OR replace them with much larger industrial units like fork truck batteries.
As to how many batteries an alternator will handle, it all depends on
how discharged they are. The curve on a typical alternator is pretty
steep. They are designed to charge a low battery FAST, then as the
battery comes up to charge it takes less power so the alternator works
less. This isn't a problem most of the time because a battery in good
shape doesn't drop very far unless you leave the lights on or crank the
starter a lot.
Some interesting info on batteries and power here:
http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/
--
Steve W.
Stormin Mormon
Nov 1, 2012, 5:43:35 PM11/1/12
to
Chance favors the prepared. God does, too. I
charged all my batteries, gassed up the generator.
Got the generator to run (not easy). And no
power out. I like it, that way.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
news:k6ue9u$5i4$1...@dont-email.me...
charged all my batteries, gassed up the generator.
Got the generator to run (not easy). And no
power out. I like it, that way.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
news:k6ue9u$5i4$1...@dont-email.me...
Stormin Mormon
Nov 1, 2012, 5:44:20 PM11/1/12
to
I've had a few HF tools which did good. But,
not very many.
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com>
wrote in message news:k6ufbi$3da$1...@panix2.panix.com...
not very many.
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com>
wrote in message news:k6ufbi$3da$1...@panix2.panix.com...
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 5:49:46 PM11/1/12
to
On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 06:39:12 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:39:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put in
>>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>>
>>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
>>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>>
>>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>>
>>Have I figgered right?
>>
>>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>>never "short out", from too many loads?
>
>
>AFAIK the alt regulator does that just fine by design, so just stay
>within what it was designed for, Find the particular alt specs.
A GENERATOR regulator regulated both voltage and current. An
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:39:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put in
>>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>>
>>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
>>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>>
>>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>>
>>Have I figgered right?
>>
>>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>>never "short out", from too many loads?
>
>
>AFAIK the alt regulator does that just fine by design, so just stay
>within what it was designed for, Find the particular alt specs.
alternator regulator controls only voltage. The current is limitted by
the power ouput of the alternator and the internal resistance.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 5:53:41 PM11/1/12
to
one out, and overcurrent CAN damage them. A shorted battery can kill
an alternator pretty quick
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 6:04:46 PM11/1/12
to
On Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:28:23 -0400, "Existential Angst"
And you would tear the batteries apart driving across town. You MUST
have flexible connectors - for vibration as well as heat/cool
expansion changes.
fool would use it in an automotive application due to vibration and
work hardening, You NEED flexible cable - and the heavier the better.
NOTHING less than a #8 - preferably a #6 - bigger if the cable is over
6 feet long.
cables as short as possible. Run extention cables out to the car for
the high voltage low current.
generator set. Efficiency is pitiful
have flexible connectors - for vibration as well as heat/cool
expansion changes.
>
>Have to remove an engine brace to get at the
>> battery. There's an easily accessed covered lug for the +, but I'd
>> have remove the brace to get at the -, or set up a stud to ground on
>> the engine. Too lazy to do that for something I might never need.
>> If I ever decide to spend the 4 bills or so for a good set-up I'd do
>> it. You also need to fuse the cable.
>
>Well, I wouldn't really deal with the hood battery. I'd use that batt only
>in conjunction with the alternator, when charging the inverter batts. So
>cabling between the alt/car battery to the inverter batts could be much
>thinner, on the order of #12 housewire -- which is actually good for up to
>50 amps (not code-wise, of course).
#14 house wire will NOT work to charge your batteries - and only a
>Have to remove an engine brace to get at the
>> battery. There's an easily accessed covered lug for the +, but I'd
>> have remove the brace to get at the -, or set up a stud to ground on
>> the engine. Too lazy to do that for something I might never need.
>> If I ever decide to spend the 4 bills or so for a good set-up I'd do
>> it. You also need to fuse the cable.
>
>Well, I wouldn't really deal with the hood battery. I'd use that batt only
>in conjunction with the alternator, when charging the inverter batts. So
>cabling between the alt/car battery to the inverter batts could be much
>thinner, on the order of #12 housewire -- which is actually good for up to
>50 amps (not code-wise, of course).
fool would use it in an automotive application due to vibration and
work hardening, You NEED flexible cable - and the heavier the better.
NOTHING less than a #8 - preferably a #6 - bigger if the cable is over
6 feet long.
>
>And this strat holds whether your batt/inverter is on the vehicle, or off
>the vehicle, as long as the inverter itself is "bussed" to whatever batt
>bank you are using.
>
>
>> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
>> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
>> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
>> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
>> considered.
The "sensible" way is the inverter in the car with heavy current
>And this strat holds whether your batt/inverter is on the vehicle, or off
>the vehicle, as long as the inverter itself is "bussed" to whatever batt
>bank you are using.
>
>
>> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
>> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
>> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
>> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
>> considered.
cables as short as possible. Run extention cables out to the car for
the high voltage low current.
>
>As per the above, you can just leave the car outside, as the only cable(s)
>you now have to worry about are 1. the charging cable from the car alt/batt
>to the inverter setup, and 2. the AC wire from the inverter output to the
>house.
>Both are now pretty thin-ish.
You are going at it all backwards.
>As per the above, you can just leave the car outside, as the only cable(s)
>you now have to worry about are 1. the charging cable from the car alt/batt
>to the inverter setup, and 2. the AC wire from the inverter output to the
>house.
>Both are now pretty thin-ish.
>
>> Anyway. that's about where I stopped thinking about setting up an
>> inverter. Not many power outages here.
>> I do like the idea for emergency use.
>
>I'm forced to do a lot of hanging out in my car/truck, in the cold no less,
>so there are many advantages to this system, many applications.
>Just one of them being, you'll never need a jump with extra batts!
>
>Proly the *least* practical to all this is the power outage scenario (as I
>am realizing), but a cupla cars providing 600 W or so each is a whole lot
>better than nothing.
Idling the car with NO load burns as much gas as a good small
>> Anyway. that's about where I stopped thinking about setting up an
>> inverter. Not many power outages here.
>> I do like the idea for emergency use.
>
>I'm forced to do a lot of hanging out in my car/truck, in the cold no less,
>so there are many advantages to this system, many applications.
>Just one of them being, you'll never need a jump with extra batts!
>
>Proly the *least* practical to all this is the power outage scenario (as I
>am realizing), but a cupla cars providing 600 W or so each is a whole lot
>better than nothing.
generator set. Efficiency is pitiful
No one
Nov 1, 2012, 6:18:22 PM11/1/12
to
more than an exercise in stupidity by an utter fool.
Vic Smith
Nov 1, 2012, 6:39:41 PM11/1/12
to
On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 18:04:46 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
>>> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
>>> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
>>> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
>>> considered.
>
>The "sensible" way is the inverter in the car with heavy current
>cables as short as possible. Run extention cables out to the car for
>the high voltage low current.
>>
I don't see it that way. My battery is near the grill. I don't want
>>
>>> Another thing is cable length. You really need to shelter the
>>> inverter from rain/snow. I figured 6' cables would get under the
>>> garage door to the inverter. Could run the car in the garage with
>>> doors open, but I don't like that. So inverter location has to be
>>> considered.
>
>The "sensible" way is the inverter in the car with heavy current
>cables as short as possible. Run extention cables out to the car for
>the high voltage low current.
>>
to hole my firewall for heavy cables and deal with having them in my
car interior when I may never even need the inverter.
Even if I was using the inverter with this car on job sites to power
tools, I'd still have the cables under the hood, and rig a shelter for
the inverter when needed.
Lots of ways to do it, depending on needs and vehicle.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 8:26:08 PM11/1/12
to
"No one" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k6usfl$2id$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Of course, you already knew everything discussed in this thread, right?
Right.
--
EA
news:k6usfl$2id$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Right.
--
EA
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 8:40:07 PM11/1/12
to
volt cables are NOT heavy.
Do it your way - but there is a right and a wrong way - yours is NOT
the right way.
Gene E. Yuss
Nov 1, 2012, 8:46:07 PM11/1/12
to
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:50931323$0$9821$607e...@cv.net...
Circuit analysis, which of course that alone is guaranteed to fly
as far over your brain-dead numb skull as does the exosphere.
John B.
Nov 1, 2012, 9:00:24 PM11/1/12
to
could short it out if you connect the BAT. terminal to ground :-)
However... as I said, you need to worry about the temperature of the
alternator. There are temperature limits.
see
http://www.newindo.com/delcoremy/20si-21si-26si-delcoremy-generators.htm
for examples of alternator specifications.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 9:08:25 PM11/1/12
to
"Gene E. Yuss" <gene...@home.com> wrote in message
news:k6v54g$lgs$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Heh, Thevenin's Theorem is not taught in any "first college class", you
poseur.
AND, if you can cite a single relevancy of Thevenin's theorem to charging
batteries -- aside from the detail of mismatched batteries -- I'll blow you
in any venue you choose. No one is asking for equivalent circuits here.
You remind me of the asshole who brings up relativity in the middle of
billiard ball collision problem.
--
EA
news:k6v54g$lgs$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
poseur.
AND, if you can cite a single relevancy of Thevenin's theorem to charging
batteries -- aside from the detail of mismatched batteries -- I'll blow you
in any venue you choose. No one is asking for equivalent circuits here.
You remind me of the asshole who brings up relativity in the middle of
billiard ball collision problem.
--
EA
Gene E. Yuss
Nov 1, 2012, 9:21:10 PM11/1/12
to
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:50931d44$0$24782$607e...@cv.net...
Your pathetically feeble attempt at deceit notwithstanding, I was
quite certain, as you've provided proof positive, that both the
concept and the point would far out reach your miniscule grasp.
Vic Smith
Nov 1, 2012, 9:40:49 PM11/1/12
to
firewall for the heavy low voltage cables. For an inverter setup that
will be tested once, then rarely - if ever - used again. Think again.
>Do it your way - but there is a right and a wrong way - yours is NOT
>the right way.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 1, 2012, 10:14:09 PM11/1/12
to
On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:40:49 -0500, Vic Smith
I don't punch holes in firewalls to run heavy cables. If they are
heavy like battery cables they go under the car and come up through
the back using grommets - often through existing holes in the body
that have factory installed covers. If it is a simple accessory
battery charging wire (not using the SLA battery to power the
inverter) - #6AWG stranded is 1/4" in diameter, sometimes it can be
routed back through existing firewall grommets, and follow the chassis
harness back along the rocker panel area to the back of the car.Then
the inverter gets connected to the batteries with the shortest
possible cables.
I've been doing this kind of installation since the late sixties -
when an "inverter" was a motor generator unit. (Rotary Inverter).
Google it. Coach batteries in motor homes and travel trailers use the
same wiring techniques, but back then ran everything on 12 volts DC.
heavy like battery cables they go under the car and come up through
the back using grommets - often through existing holes in the body
that have factory installed covers. If it is a simple accessory
battery charging wire (not using the SLA battery to power the
inverter) - #6AWG stranded is 1/4" in diameter, sometimes it can be
routed back through existing firewall grommets, and follow the chassis
harness back along the rocker panel area to the back of the car.Then
the inverter gets connected to the batteries with the shortest
possible cables.
I've been doing this kind of installation since the late sixties -
when an "inverter" was a motor generator unit. (Rotary Inverter).
Google it. Coach batteries in motor homes and travel trailers use the
same wiring techniques, but back then ran everything on 12 volts DC.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 10:37:25 PM11/1/12
to
"Gene E. Yuss" <gene...@home.com> wrote in message
news:k6v767$pe6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
applies here.
The ball is still in your delusional court:
Show me and everyone else exactly how you would apply Thevenin's/Norton's
theorems to the discussion at hand. Show me and everyone else exactly what
insights into this discussion these theorems would provide in the context of
this thread, what contribution..
I'll answer it for you: NONE.
But, I could be wrong. So show us.
But, really, you just wanted to theorem-name-drop, flap your dick around.
Good job.
Like I said, if you can provide ONE instance where these theorems contribute
one iota to the discussion, I'll blow you.
--
EA
>
>
Gene E. Yuss
Nov 1, 2012, 10:57:08 PM11/1/12
to
"Existential Angst" <fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:509331e8$0$9821$607e...@cv.net...
interested in what you conspicuously consider to be an offer
which someone of your miscreant ilk couldn't muster a refusal.
You're truly a pretentious, addlepated bore highly reminiscent
of Monty Python's Black Knight. Here's a hint, with apologies
to Will Rogers, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
Existential Angst
Nov 1, 2012, 11:15:04 PM11/1/12
to
"Gene E. Yuss" <gene...@home.com> wrote in message
news:k6vcq4$3ss$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
world (well, at least these two ngs) that you don't have a fucking clue how
to apply it.
How do I know this?
Because Thevenins Theorem CANNOT be meaningfully applied to this
discussion!!
But you didn't know that I knew that, did you, and thought you could just
name drop, along with your asshole jerkoff buddies.....
OK, finish masturbating yourself and go to bed.... You have a long
fraudulent day ahead of you....
--
EA
Steve W.
Nov 2, 2012, 12:12:59 AM11/2/12
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> I don't punch holes in firewalls to run heavy cables. If they are
> heavy like battery cables they go under the car and come up through
> the back using grommets - often through existing holes in the body
> that have factory installed covers. If it is a simple accessory
> battery charging wire (not using the SLA battery to power the
> inverter) - #6AWG stranded is 1/4" in diameter, sometimes it can be
> routed back through existing firewall grommets, and follow the chassis
> harness back along the rocker panel area to the back of the car.Then
> the inverter gets connected to the batteries with the shortest
> possible cables.
>
> I've been doing this kind of installation since the late sixties -
> when an "inverter" was a motor generator unit. (Rotary Inverter).
> Google it. Coach batteries in motor homes and travel trailers use the
> same wiring techniques, but back then ran everything on 12 volts DC.
Sounds very familiar... Oh yeah that's basically how the rear battery
> I don't punch holes in firewalls to run heavy cables. If they are
> heavy like battery cables they go under the car and come up through
> the back using grommets - often through existing holes in the body
> that have factory installed covers. If it is a simple accessory
> battery charging wire (not using the SLA battery to power the
> inverter) - #6AWG stranded is 1/4" in diameter, sometimes it can be
> routed back through existing firewall grommets, and follow the chassis
> harness back along the rocker panel area to the back of the car.Then
> the inverter gets connected to the batteries with the shortest
> possible cables.
>
> I've been doing this kind of installation since the late sixties -
> when an "inverter" was a motor generator unit. (Rotary Inverter).
> Google it. Coach batteries in motor homes and travel trailers use the
> same wiring techniques, but back then ran everything on 12 volts DC.
in my vehicle is set up. Except I'm running #4 because I had it in
stock. I run a modified isolator with remote sensing so the "house"
battery gets a full charge. That batt. powers the extra lights and an
inverter. Now that LED are finally throwing some light so they can be
used as scene lights the current use is WAY down over the old 30W and
50W halogens. Wish I could find good 90 degree replacement LEDs for my
mini bar though.
--
Steve W.
Existential Angst
Nov 2, 2012, 12:17:42 AM11/2/12
to
"Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)"
<bruceNOSP...@gmail.INVALID> wrote in message
news:t1h598lod01t9iq5h...@4ax.com...
How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical idear ito
an outage.
It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my setup,
but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
Good info, tho.
--
EA
<bruceNOSP...@gmail.INVALID> wrote in message
news:t1h598lod01t9iq5h...@4ax.com...
alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical idear ito
an outage.
It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my setup,
but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
Good info, tho.
--
EA
Steve W.
Nov 2, 2012, 2:38:38 AM11/2/12
to
Existential Angst wrote:
>
> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
> alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
Most are only in the 150 - 200 amps. Any higher and the wiring
>
> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
> alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
requirements go way up.
The LN alternators are also BIG HEAVY units. Rated for high output at
lower rpm than the auto units.
>
> Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical idear ito
> an outage.
> It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
> experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my setup,
> but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
>
> Good info, tho.
Those are MAX output with proper cooling at 2500 - 3000 rpm.
--
Steve W.
Ian Malcolm
Nov 2, 2012, 6:58:53 AM11/2/12
to
"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in
news:k6vppg$afo$1...@dont-email.me:
You certainly wont get proper cooling without adequate airflow and the
designers were almost certainly counting on vehicle speed to provide a
good part of that.
IMHO this application would REQUIRE an external alternator controller
(available commercially) with a temperature sensor on the alternator
housing and probably a ducted in cooling air feed to the rear housing.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL
news:k6vppg$afo$1...@dont-email.me:
designers were almost certainly counting on vehicle speed to provide a
good part of that.
IMHO this application would REQUIRE an external alternator controller
(available commercially) with a temperature sensor on the alternator
housing and probably a ducted in cooling air feed to the rear housing.
--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL
John B.
Nov 2, 2012, 7:24:00 AM11/2/12
to
On Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:40:49 -0500, Vic Smith
However you do need to take the resistance of the wires into
consideration.
#4 copper cable, for example, has a resistance of 0.253 per 1,000 ft
at 68 degrees F. .308 at 167 F. 1 amp current through this "resister"
results in a voltage drop of almost 1/4 volt. 10 amps results in a
drop of 2.5 volts. or about 20% losses. Your 12 volt circuit suddenly
becomes a 9 volt circuit. So at low voltage you require large,
expensive, wires to avoid significant voltage losses.
A 120 VAC circuit using 1,000 ft. of #4 wire with 10 amps flowing
through it would have a voltage loss of about 3 volts, or about 2.5%
so with conventional AC circuits you can use smaller, cheaper, wires.
--
Cheers,
John B.
consideration.
#4 copper cable, for example, has a resistance of 0.253 per 1,000 ft
at 68 degrees F. .308 at 167 F. 1 amp current through this "resister"
results in a voltage drop of almost 1/4 volt. 10 amps results in a
drop of 2.5 volts. or about 20% losses. Your 12 volt circuit suddenly
becomes a 9 volt circuit. So at low voltage you require large,
expensive, wires to avoid significant voltage losses.
A 120 VAC circuit using 1,000 ft. of #4 wire with 10 amps flowing
through it would have a voltage loss of about 3 volts, or about 2.5%
so with conventional AC circuits you can use smaller, cheaper, wires.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Vic Smith
Nov 2, 2012, 1:31:23 PM11/2/12
to
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:24:00 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>However you do need to take the resistance of the wires into
>consideration.
>
>#4 copper cable, for example, has a resistance of 0.253 per 1,000 ft
>at 68 degrees F. .308 at 167 F. 1 amp current through this "resister"
>results in a voltage drop of almost 1/4 volt. 10 amps results in a
>drop of 2.5 volts. or about 20% losses. Your 12 volt circuit suddenly
>becomes a 9 volt circuit. So at low voltage you require large,
>expensive, wires to avoid significant voltage losses.
>
>A 120 VAC circuit using 1,000 ft. of #4 wire with 10 amps flowing
>through it would have a voltage loss of about 3 volts, or about 2.5%
>so with conventional AC circuits you can use smaller, cheaper, wires.
All good to know. And I always note wire sizes in inverter specs.
Always considered wire costs to be significant to reduce losses going
to the inverter.
But I've booster cable jumped a lot of cars, and just naturally know
that cheaping out on cables is a bad move.
I was looking at cables in the 1/0 - 4/0 range and it looked to me
that jumping a step in cable diameter would easily compensate for the
resistance increase jump from 3 to 6 feet, and still meet a particular
inverter's cable specs.
I just disagreed about routing heavy cables to my car interior for an
non-permanent, "as-needed" inverter setup.
wrote:
>
>However you do need to take the resistance of the wires into
>consideration.
>
>#4 copper cable, for example, has a resistance of 0.253 per 1,000 ft
>at 68 degrees F. .308 at 167 F. 1 amp current through this "resister"
>results in a voltage drop of almost 1/4 volt. 10 amps results in a
>drop of 2.5 volts. or about 20% losses. Your 12 volt circuit suddenly
>becomes a 9 volt circuit. So at low voltage you require large,
>expensive, wires to avoid significant voltage losses.
>
>A 120 VAC circuit using 1,000 ft. of #4 wire with 10 amps flowing
>through it would have a voltage loss of about 3 volts, or about 2.5%
>so with conventional AC circuits you can use smaller, cheaper, wires.
Always considered wire costs to be significant to reduce losses going
to the inverter.
But I've booster cable jumped a lot of cars, and just naturally know
that cheaping out on cables is a bad move.
I was looking at cables in the 1/0 - 4/0 range and it looked to me
that jumping a step in cable diameter would easily compensate for the
resistance increase jump from 3 to 6 feet, and still meet a particular
inverter's cable specs.
I just disagreed about routing heavy cables to my car interior for an
non-permanent, "as-needed" inverter setup.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 2, 2012, 2:21:16 PM11/2/12
to
On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
Never seen or heard of a 500 amp alternator for vehicle use.
Michael A. Terrell
Nov 2, 2012, 2:57:14 PM11/2/12
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
> >alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
>
> 250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
> for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
>
> The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
>
> Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
>
> Never seen or heard of a 500 amp alternator for vehicle use.
might be 325A, but if the battery is down 2 volts that's ony 650 Watts
output (less than 1 HP).
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)
Nov 2, 2012, 4:38:11 PM11/2/12
to
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:21:16 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>>alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
>
>250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
>for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
>
>The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
>
>Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
That's about the biggest *practical* unit I've seen also. They put
>On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
><fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>>alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
>
>250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
>for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
>
>The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
>
>Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
those on the Semis when they used to plaster them with 500 marker
lights and they were all incandescent.
Oh, and they did use the 300A ones on the new Disneyland Parking Lot
Trams - a tractor with a Cat 3208T on Natural Gas, and a string of 7
passenger trailers with overhead lighting in all the cars. Just a
little bit of alternator load...
Now that they've gone to LED's it cut the power draw by about 75%, and
they can get by with the normal factory-option 'heavy' alternator in
the 200A range.
>Never seen or heard of a 500 amp alternator for vehicle use.
>
>>
>>Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical idear ito
>>an outage.
>>It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
>>experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my setup,
>>but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
>>
>>Good info, tho.
The best way to make an Inverter Rig like that for your house is to
>
>>
>>Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical idear ito
>>an outage.
>>It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
>>experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my setup,
>>but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
>>
>>Good info, tho.
get a larger gasoline engine, like perhaps a 13-HP to 18-HP Briggs
with the flyweight speed governor for generator set use, find a sheave
to fit the crankshaft, and couple that to a truck alternator and a big
deep-cycle battery - preferably two GC-2 Golf Cart batteries in
series.
The governor part is very important, you can't chance setting the
throttle by hand - if the belt snaps and the load dumps from the
alternator you can overspeed the engine and blow it up. The air-vane
governor on a Lawnmower-duty engine will work kinda sorta, but they'll
'hunt' and 'surge' on you while working. But most small car engines
that you would repurpose into a prime mover don't have any sort of
governor built in at all - you have to add one.
For small overnight loads you can run off the batteries, but you want
the engine running before you crank up the microwave oven, or start
charging your cellphones and Laptop battery.
Put it on a cart with wheels, add a pair of 4/0 Truck-sized Jumper
Cables (and a 300A or 500A circuit breaker in case of an "Oopsie!"),
and you can boost-charge and start almost anything from a Semi to a
D-9 Dozer to a Liebherr mining dump-truck or a Locomotive.
Note that when the engines get really huge they are often 24V
electrical systems. Or they have an Air-Starter, and you need a
gas-engine air compressor on a cart to give them a jump-start.
--<< Bruce >>--
Existential Angst
Nov 2, 2012, 6:33:10 PM11/2/12
to
"Ian Malcolm" <See.My.Sig...@totally.invalid> wrote in message
news:XnsA0FF6FB7F4...@88.198.244.100...
>>
>
> You certainly wont get proper cooling without adequate airflow and the
> designers were almost certainly counting on vehicle speed to provide a
> good part of that.
>
> IMHO this application would REQUIRE an external alternator controller
> (available commercially) with a temperature sensor on the alternator
> housing and probably a ducted in cooling air feed to the rear housing.
Good points, more big bummers.
The devil is in the details, and what initially seemed like a slam-dunk
no-brainer has become quite problematic.
I'm looking to replace my (stolen) BlackMax with a tri-fuel -- just bite the
bullet, and go thru all the sound-proofing, plumbing, and electrics to the
panel. And put a chain on it...
I'm still going to fool around with a big-ish inverter, just to see what can
be made of it.
A good fraction of the Sandy victims will not have power 'til Nov 11 or
so.... holy shit....
And more salt-in-wound:
Linemen from other states have arrived, to a massive gas shortage, and
are essentially immobile.... it just never ends.
--
EA
news:XnsA0FF6FB7F4...@88.198.244.100...
> "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in
> news:k6vppg$afo$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>
>>> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet
>>> big rig alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for
>>> 500 A.
>>
>> Most are only in the 150 - 200 amps. Any higher and the wiring
>> requirements go way up.
>>
>> The LN alternators are also BIG HEAVY units. Rated for high output at
>> lower rpm than the auto units.
>>
>>>
>>> Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical
>>> idear ito an outage.
>>> It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
>>> experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my
>>> setup, but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
>>>
>>> Good info, tho.
>>
>>
>> FYI you should have an 80 amp unit in the Fit and a 100 amp in the
>> Frontier.
>>
>> Those are MAX output with proper cooling at 2500 - 3000 rpm.
Yeah, that was mentioned -- big bummer too.
> news:k6vppg$afo$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Existential Angst wrote:
>>>
>>> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet
>>> big rig alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for
>>> 500 A.
>>
>> Most are only in the 150 - 200 amps. Any higher and the wiring
>> requirements go way up.
>>
>> The LN alternators are also BIG HEAVY units. Rated for high output at
>> lower rpm than the auto units.
>>
>>>
>>> Overall, I'm realizing this inverter thing isn't a super-practical
>>> idear ito an outage.
>>> It could dull the pain a bit, but not much else. I'm still going to
>>> experiment with this, bec that would just be one application of my
>>> setup, but too many pieces of the puzzle don't quite fit right.
>>>
>>> Good info, tho.
>>
>>
>> FYI you should have an 80 amp unit in the Fit and a 100 amp in the
>> Frontier.
>>
>> Those are MAX output with proper cooling at 2500 - 3000 rpm.
>>
>
> You certainly wont get proper cooling without adequate airflow and the
> designers were almost certainly counting on vehicle speed to provide a
> good part of that.
>
> IMHO this application would REQUIRE an external alternator controller
> (available commercially) with a temperature sensor on the alternator
> housing and probably a ducted in cooling air feed to the rear housing.
The devil is in the details, and what initially seemed like a slam-dunk
no-brainer has become quite problematic.
I'm looking to replace my (stolen) BlackMax with a tri-fuel -- just bite the
bullet, and go thru all the sound-proofing, plumbing, and electrics to the
panel. And put a chain on it...
I'm still going to fool around with a big-ish inverter, just to see what can
be made of it.
A good fraction of the Sandy victims will not have power 'til Nov 11 or
so.... holy shit....
And more salt-in-wound:
Linemen from other states have arrived, to a massive gas shortage, and
are essentially immobile.... it just never ends.
--
EA
Steve W.
Nov 2, 2012, 6:45:59 PM11/2/12
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>> alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
>
> 250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
> for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
>
> The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
>
> Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
>
> Never seen or heard of a 500 amp alternator for vehicle use.
>
I'd like to see the rectifier and regulator for a 500 amp unit!
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 00:17:42 -0400, "Existential Angst"
> <fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> How much juice can a truck alternator put out? Big Rigs?? I'll bet big rig
>> alts (with the attached apartment in the back) are good for 500 A.
>
> 250 amp is pretty standard. The units Leece Neville/Presolite builds
> for fire trucks are 270 amp. (Series 4800 and 4900)
>
> The AVi 160 used in school busses is a 210 amp unit.
>
> Their largest unit is 325 amps (2270 or 2272 series)
>
> Never seen or heard of a 500 amp alternator for vehicle use.
>
When we got the latest rig (E One built on a commercial chassis with no
electrical upgrades!) I stuck a spare LN unit I had on it.
The original dept was always complaining that the low voltage alarm
would go off and they had to rev up the engine to bring it up (which is
SOP in most departments anyway, even the big units don't put out enough
at idle to power all the lights on the new rigs)
Only real problem I had was the crappy wiring that I replaced with heavy
duty stuff. Just bugs me to see low grade crap on an emergency vehicle.
--
Steve W.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 2, 2012, 7:49:02 PM11/2/12
to
difference is less than the capacity difference at my local supplier.
Ashton Crusher
Nov 3, 2012, 5:53:05 PM11/3/12
to
On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:39:12 -0400, "Existential Angst"
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put in
>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
>Have I figgered right?
>
>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>never "short out", from too many loads?
I just did a couple quick calc's and here's what I got. Assuming a
<fit...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put in
>parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
>I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge of
>the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
>Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
>I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the alternator
>could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
>Have I figgered right?
>
>Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator would
>never "short out", from too many loads?
regular setup first with the battery sitting at 12.5 volts, which is
reasonably well charged, and with an internal resistance of 0.08 ohms.
V=IR, doing the math gives you 25 amps if the alternator spins fast
enough to put out 14.5 volts while it's charging the battery. That's
based on the 2volt difference between the battery voltage and the
alternator voltage. Add a second battery with the same state of
charge at 12.5v and the parallel resistance value calc's to 0.04 and
the math gives you 50 amps from the alternator.
If the two batteries were down to 12.0 volts, which is a fair
discharge level, you get a final value for both batteries charging of
62.5 amps. If those assumptions are in the ballpark it doesn't seem
to me that adding a second battery that's 50% discharged would be that
big a deal IF charging the batteries was the only thing going on. If
you are driving around and using 30 amps to run the car, stereo, AC
system then you are pulling over 90 amps and I suspect most standard
alternators don't like cranking out that much power for very long.
J. Clarke
Nov 15, 2012, 8:41:07 AM11/15/12
to
In article <efc598lb4fncfb35e...@4ax.com>,
ph...@mindspring.com says...
>
> mike <ham...@netzero.net> on Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:20:04 -0700 typed in
> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
> >If your objective is to have emergency power at home, why do you want to
> >haul around hundreds of pounds of batteries that don't need charging?
> >
> >Put the batteries adjacent to the inverter. You want the long cables
> >from the alternator to the battery at 40 amps instead of between the battery
> >and inverter at hundreds of amps.
> >Put a smart trickle charger on the batteries. Hook up the car in an
> >emergency
> >to charge 'em when the grid is down. I haven't done measurements in
> >decades. It would be interesting to know the car engine RPM required
> >to get 40A out of an alternator.
> >
> >The primary result of putting the batteries in the vehicle is to reduce
> >gas mileage and wear out your brakes faster.
> >
> >Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
> >reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
>
> If one insists on having 12 volt batteries, one can wire the
> batteries into a "charging station" which charges them off main power,
> till the power goes out. Add a genset of some sort to recharge them
> when the main power is out.
> I understand that Coors (of all people) is doing some interesting
> work in ceramic batteries, with such an idea in mind.
FWIW, CoorsTek, a major ceramics company, is a different company from
Coors Brewing. They used to be under the same parent company and the
ceramic business derived a large percentage of its income from support
services for the brewery but they separated in 1986. I remember back in
high school in the late '60s thinking it humorous that the crucibles we
used in the chemistry lab were labelled "Coors".
ph...@mindspring.com says...
>
> mike <ham...@netzero.net> on Thu, 01 Nov 2012 10:20:04 -0700 typed in
> rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
> >On 11/1/2012 6:08 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
> >> "Jim Wilkins"<murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
> >>>
> >> "Jim Wilkins"<murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:k6tj8k$2ok$1...@dont-email.me...
> >>>
> >>> "Existential Angst"<fit...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:5091eee3$0$24770$607e...@cv.net...
> >>> news:5091eee3$0$24770$607e...@cv.net...
> >>>> Toward the end of determining how many "external" car batteries can I put
> >>>> in parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
> >>>>
> >>>> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> >>>> of the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> >>>> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
> >>>>
> >>>> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> >>>> alternator could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
> >>>>
> >>>> Have I figgered right?
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> >>>> would never "short out", from too many loads?
> >>>> in parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
> >>>>
> >>>> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> >>>> of the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> >>>> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
> >>>>
> >>>> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> >>>> alternator could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
> >>>>
> >>>> Have I figgered right?
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> >>>> would never "short out", from too many loads?
> >>>> --
> >>>> EA
> >>>
> >>> You can guess how to improve MPG, or you can measure it:
> >>> http://www.scangauge.com/products/scangaugee/
> >>>
> >>
> >> I have one of the original scangauges. That was the basis for my
> >> disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
> >> mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
> >> mpg's seemed to jump.
> >> Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
> >>
> >> But, THIS Q is for sumpn diff: I'll be adding "carriage batts" for an
> >> inverter setup, and am curious about the extra loading of the alt by extra
> >> batts..
> >> I'm hoping johnB is right -- he's saying the max output of an alternator IS
> >> current limited, iow, you *cannot* short out an alternator?? That would be
> >> nice!
> >
> >I've lost the logic of this.
> >>>> EA
> >>>
> >>> You can guess how to improve MPG, or you can measure it:
> >>> http://www.scangauge.com/products/scangaugee/
> >>>
> >>
> >> I have one of the original scangauges. That was the basis for my
> >> disconnecting the alternator Q, so I could see what the diff would be. I
> >> mentioned somewhere that when the alt on my ole mazda 929S went, that my
> >> mpg's seemed to jump.
> >> Ahm still tryna figger out how to disable the alternator.... :(
> >>
> >> But, THIS Q is for sumpn diff: I'll be adding "carriage batts" for an
> >> inverter setup, and am curious about the extra loading of the alt by extra
> >> batts..
> >> I'm hoping johnB is right -- he's saying the max output of an alternator IS
> >> current limited, iow, you *cannot* short out an alternator?? That would be
> >> nice!
> >
> >If your objective is to have emergency power at home, why do you want to
> >haul around hundreds of pounds of batteries that don't need charging?
> >
> >Put the batteries adjacent to the inverter. You want the long cables
> >from the alternator to the battery at 40 amps instead of between the battery
> >and inverter at hundreds of amps.
> >Put a smart trickle charger on the batteries. Hook up the car in an
> >emergency
> >to charge 'em when the grid is down. I haven't done measurements in
> >decades. It would be interesting to know the car engine RPM required
> >to get 40A out of an alternator.
> >
> >The primary result of putting the batteries in the vehicle is to reduce
> >gas mileage and wear out your brakes faster.
> >
> >Or you could buy a $89 Harbor Freight generator that will give you more
> >reliable power for longer and cost less than the inverter and be portable.
>
> If one insists on having 12 volt batteries, one can wire the
> batteries into a "charging station" which charges them off main power,
> till the power goes out. Add a genset of some sort to recharge them
> when the main power is out.
> I understand that Coors (of all people) is doing some interesting
> work in ceramic batteries, with such an idea in mind.
FWIW, CoorsTek, a major ceramics company, is a different company from
Coors Brewing. They used to be under the same parent company and the
ceramic business derived a large percentage of its income from support
services for the brewery but they separated in 1986. I remember back in
high school in the late '60s thinking it humorous that the crucibles we
used in the chemistry lab were labelled "Coors".
Michael A. Terrell
Nov 15, 2012, 9:07:21 AM11/15/12
to
"J. Clarke" wrote:
>
> FWIW, CoorsTek, a major ceramics company, is a different company from
> Coors Brewing. They used to be under the same parent company and the
> ceramic business derived a large percentage of its income from support
> services for the brewery but they separated in 1986. I remember back in
> high school in the late '60s thinking it humorous that the crucibles we
> used in the chemistry lab were labelled "Coors".
Orlando, Fl. were bought from Coors marketing unit where they produced
their commercials.
Existential Angst
Nov 28, 2012, 6:41:21 PM11/28/12
to
"Ashton Crusher" <de...@moore.net> wrote in message
news:9n3b98h8b6729ds6q...@4ax.com...
Good analysis, altho you have to be careful of what no load terminal voltage
of a battery really "means".
A fully charged battery, afaiu, quickly develops "surface charge", equal to
the charging device, so theoretically relatively little current actually
passes thru, despite Ohm's law. I'll have to measure this myself one day to
make sure....
But at some discharge level, the above sounds about right.
I solved/simplified this whole thing with a bit of manual labor: I just
hump the marine batt/inverter inside the house, and charge it with a
charger, about once a week. Saves a whole lot of mucky-mucking around with
car wiring/hole drilling, but..... you just can't believe how HEAVY those
marine batts are..... holy shit.....
One thing I"ve learned from these varied discussions is, There is no free
lunch. Having the car alternator charge a second battery is neat and
nifty, but not at the trouble/expense of a new alternator. So I don't
really mind humping that heavy marine battery, at least once a week.
And, it seems these newer cars indeed draw a lot of juice. My buddy has a
DC clamp-on ammeter (yup, DC), and holy shit, with nothing running but the
engine, the current is 20+ amps, and can quickly jump up to 40. So a second
battery, esp. a discharged one, could really add to the load.
They make these isolator switches for second batteries, but really, too much
electrical drama for me.
Electrical load can greatly affect mpg's, afaict.
Consider that cruising 60 mph for a small car can occur at a mere 10 hp.
Adding 1 hp worth of electrical load can then reduce your mpg's by a full
10%, over old non-electronic cars. Technology giveth, and tech taketh
away....
--
EA
news:9n3b98h8b6729ds6q...@4ax.com...
of a battery really "means".
A fully charged battery, afaiu, quickly develops "surface charge", equal to
the charging device, so theoretically relatively little current actually
passes thru, despite Ohm's law. I'll have to measure this myself one day to
make sure....
But at some discharge level, the above sounds about right.
I solved/simplified this whole thing with a bit of manual labor: I just
hump the marine batt/inverter inside the house, and charge it with a
charger, about once a week. Saves a whole lot of mucky-mucking around with
car wiring/hole drilling, but..... you just can't believe how HEAVY those
marine batts are..... holy shit.....
One thing I"ve learned from these varied discussions is, There is no free
lunch. Having the car alternator charge a second battery is neat and
nifty, but not at the trouble/expense of a new alternator. So I don't
really mind humping that heavy marine battery, at least once a week.
And, it seems these newer cars indeed draw a lot of juice. My buddy has a
DC clamp-on ammeter (yup, DC), and holy shit, with nothing running but the
engine, the current is 20+ amps, and can quickly jump up to 40. So a second
battery, esp. a discharged one, could really add to the load.
They make these isolator switches for second batteries, but really, too much
electrical drama for me.
Electrical load can greatly affect mpg's, afaict.
Consider that cruising 60 mph for a small car can occur at a mere 10 hp.
Adding 1 hp worth of electrical load can then reduce your mpg's by a full
10%, over old non-electronic cars. Technology giveth, and tech taketh
away....
--
EA
Aaronrobinson
Dec 9, 2012, 11:06:47 AM12/9/12
to
'Existential Angst[_2_ Wrote:
> ;1192286']Toward the end of determining how many "external" car
> batteries can I put in
> parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> of
> the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> alternator
> could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
> Have I figgered right?
>
> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> would
> never "short out", from too many loads?
> --
> parallel with the car battery, without over-loading the alternator??
>
> I know the charging current draw would depend on the degree of discharge
> of
> the batts, so figger 50% discharge.
> Or even total discharge, ie, a dead battery.
>
> I figger that if no lights, defrosters, etc are being used, the
> alternator
> could handle two extra batteries, charge-wise.
>
> Have I figgered right?
>
> Is there such a thing as a "current limiter", so that the alternator
> would
> never "short out", from too many loads?
> EA
you can do this with low power consuming lights such as led
--
Aaronrobinson
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