Honda auto fluids, truth or self serving??
*!*
the website
"http://www.honda2001.com/owners/service_parts/faqs_fluids.html" was
listed as a reference for honda's opinions about fluids (and filters) to
use in their fine cars. After reading the blurb about the first oil
change and special break in oil, I was convinced I was reading the
gospel for Honda maintenance. As I read further about trans fluid,
radiator fluid, brake fluid, etc. I started to feel I was reading
partisan commercials. My own dealership said to do my first oil change
as I normally would on any car (in my case 3000 mi religiously). Now I
know as long as I have lubrication in my engine, it will probably run
forever, even with K-mart 3rd world used rickshaw oil. If there are any
differences in engine wear, they might show up abut the same time as the
rear end rusts off. Any Honda engineers in the guise of "ordinary
citizens" care to comment on this stuff, or at least point to a previous
discussion on these topics? What about the oil filters?
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
George Macdonald
You can find plenty of previous discussions with a search at
<http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml>. For the oil filter, I think the Honda
part is better made than most generics - take a look at some of the stuff
at <http://www.tech2tech.net/library/library.htm> for that and other tips.
Some of the Honda fluids are better and some are just different - the Honda
power steering fluid is a must although you can find some after market
stuff labeled as Honda compatible but not from the usual major mfrs. Mind
you I've owned several Hondas over many miles and never had to add or
replace a drop of it. For manual transmission, the Honda MTL has a service
interval of 90K miles so there's no reason not to use it; note they used to
recommend engine oil for this with a 30K interval but modern engine oils
are no longer up to the job.
I'd never buy an auto-trans car so I can't comment on that. The new Honda
Type 2 antifreeze has an initial change interval of 120K miles and 60K
thereafter so again there's no reason not to use it. It is very important
to use a non-silicate antifreeze or the previous (Type 1?) Honda stuff or
your timing belt is in serious jeopardy.
The only one I'm still not sure about is the Honda brake fluid - it's
apparently a special DOT-3 fluid which they claim has special corrosion
inhibitors in it but I've always used Castrol LMA DOT-4 and never had any
problems.
For the engine oil I doubt that anyone here uses the Honda stuff and you
seem to have already established your own religious feelings there with 3K
mile changes - a waste IMO but it *is* nearly a religion.:-) It is worth
remarking though that Honda always seems to recommend lighter engine oils
than many other mfrs and the quality is important - IOW store brand is not
it. I've always used Castrol GTX 10W/30 in Winter and it seems to work for
me; I recently changed the timing belt on my '92 Integra and there were no
leaks at any of the seals and the cam lobes are in perfect condition - no
discernible wear at all after 98K miles. I do *not* follow the latest
recommendations for 5W/30 engine oil - to me it's just too light for Summer
driving, is unnecessary in all but extreme Winter conditions and is mainly
a device for Honda to get good CAFE numbers.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
RM
>radiator fluid, brake fluid, etc. I started to feel I was reading
>partisan commercials. My own dealership said to do my first oil change
>as I normally would on any car (in my case 3000 mi religiously). Now I
>know as long as I have lubrication in my engine, it will probably run
>forever, even with K-mart 3rd world used rickshaw oil. If there are any
>differences in engine wear, they might show up abut the same time as the
>rear end rusts off. Any Honda engineers in the guise of "ordinary
>citizens" care to comment on this stuff, or at least point to a previous
>discussion on these topics? What about the oil filters?
I've owned a bunch of Honda Accords so far (over 400K combined miles)
their coolant is a 'silicate free' glycol-based coolant. There's
nothing magical about it, but it is _not_ the same as 'yellow bottle'
prestone which contains silicates (which kill your water pump
bearing). The practical problem is that most silicate-free coolants
are either
a) organic acid based...dexcool; not compatible
or
b) orange.
Thus the easiest way to get the correct type and color coolant is
to buy the honda stuff. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but a
brand-new Honda water pump failed after only about 20K miles on my 92
Accord after I (mistakenly) used the yellow-bottle prestone. The
Honda coolant feels 'slimier' to the touch...I guess that's the water
pump lubricant in there....
for PSF, there are generic 'Honda type' fluids out there, but why risk
it?? It's not like you use 15 quarts of the stuff a year....
Honda ATF has special additives
Honda trannys shift better with their fluid, in my experience
Regular fluid won't destroy anything, but Honda fluid has an additve
pack that makes for smoother shifts and preserves the seals in the
tranny.
A tranny rebuilder told me to use Honda fluid to make it shift
smoother. My 90 Accord tranny was getting pretty tired at 145K
miles....I changed fluid a lot to help prolong it's life. It would
shift a lot harsher with plain dexron III and smoother with Honda ATF
(especially when cold). This tranny was starting to flare (over-rev
on upshifts, slip a bit, and the drain-plug magnet would have a big
glob of ground metal on it at every change.
From the back of the bottle of "Honda Premium Formula Automatic
Transmission fluid" (I've got about 15 quarts in my garage at the
moment)
"Honda automatic trans fluid is a unique formulation specifically
manufactured to meet the exacting standards of quality established by
Honda. This ATF is recommended above any other fluid for use in Honda
automobile automatic transmissions. Honda ATF is formulated to
provide maximum performance from Honda auto transmissions
- optimum shift quality is maintained through a wide range of
conditions and over long periods of use by the addition of special
friction modifiers
-a high viscosity index fluid with special low temp characteristics is
used to ensure stable operation over a wide temp range. This allows
for easier engine starting and smoother low temp shifting in cold
weather while retaining the ability to keep proper fluid pressure in
warm weather.
-Special anti-wear characteristics help to protect the transmission
from copper corosion and excessive wear
-Transmission seals and "o rings" are protected by special ingredients
to prolong life"
Honda oil filters are good quality (although I've read that the ones
labeled 'Filtech' are better than the 'fram' ones. Isuzu also uses
filtech for their oem filters. Stay away from Fram.
Honda oil? No, I use mobil-1 synthetic. Brake fluid: Castrol GTLMA
DOT-4. Dot-4 has a higher boiling point than dot-3; hondas can use
either dot3 or dot4.
The funny thing is that if you look at most bottles of 'super heavy
duty' brake fluid on the shelf, it's only dot-3.
I buy _all_ my honda stuff from www.hparts.com
Bror Jace
a...@at.com wrote:
> their coolant is a 'silicate free' glycol-based coolant. There's
> nothing magical about it, but it is _not_ the same as 'yellow bottle'
> prestone which contains silicates (which kill your water pump
> bearing). The practical problem is that most silicate-free coolants
> are either
>
> a) organic acid based...dexcool; not compatible
> or
> b) orange.
What about the Prestone extended life? I *think* it says silicate (and
borate?) free. I was considering using that. The shop around here that
specializes in foreign makes including Hondas uses CAM2 which is very
low in those abrasive particulates.
> Maybe it's just a coincidence, but a
> brand-new Honda water pump failed after only about 20K miles on my 92
> Accord after I (mistakenly) used the yellow-bottle prestone.
Ha! The radiator in my '90 Integra sprung a leak the DAY AFTER I used
either Prestone or Zerexwhen I changed my fluid.
> Honda trannys shift better with their fluid, in my experience
I can't say much about automatics, but for manual transmissions I swear
by Redline MTL. I haven't used the newer Honda MTL. My guess it is a
combintion of motor oil and gear oils ... without the compounds that
eat synchros and other, softer parts. If I couldn't get Redline fluid,
I'd use the OEM stuff.
> Honda oil filters are good quality (although I've read that the ones
> labeled 'Filtech' are better than the 'fram' ones. Isuzu also uses
> filtech for their oem filters. Stay away from Fram.
I like the OEM filters a lot. Decent price on-line (about $4 each) and
so many aftermarket filters have reduced filtering capacity when
compared to the OEM filtech filters.
> Honda oil? No, I use mobil-1 synthetic.
I use Mobil 1 synthetic, Valvoline Synpower synthetic (SOME Honda oil
is made by Ashland which is Valvoline) and I'm planning on trying
Redline this summer.
Brake fluid: Castrol GTLMA
> DOT-4. Dot-4 has a higher boiling point than dot-3; hondas can use
> either dot3 or dot4.
I've used LMA in the past but I'm using Valvoline Synpower right now
and it seems to stay cleaner longer in my master cylinder.
--- Bror Jace
dnd...@my-deja.com
You do not need Honda Coolant. All the local Honda Dealers here
use Prestone. The 'yellow stuff". I spoke with the mechanics and
in the shop they get the coolant in big barrels. The stuff is Prestone,
which is Allied Signal (the smae company for FRAM, First Defense).
Only suckers buy the OEM Honda coolant.
Same thing for oil filters and ATF.
Just remember to change your oil & filter every 5000KMS.
Save your money. Don't get ripped off at Honda!!!
In article <91ns9n$s7u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mike Nassour
<dnd...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:91p7mm$2uf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The stuff is Prestone,
> which is Allied Signal (the smae company for FRAM, First Defense).
Oh, now THERE'S a recommendation........<G>........
George Macdonald
containing Prestone: ~20K miles after fill, water pump fail!! In my case I
noticed the timing belt was loose during a valve check and I changed it a
couple of weeks later at 75K miles. The water pump could not be turned by
hand. Oh and on the one just changed last week, after using only Honda
antifreeze, the old water pump was in great condition at 98K miles.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:06:01 GMT, dnd...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Prestone Anitfreeze does NOT damage the waterpump nor Radiator.
>You do not need Honda Coolant. All the local Honda Dealers here
>use Prestone. The 'yellow stuff". I spoke with the mechanics and
>in the shop they get the coolant in big barrels. The stuff is Prestone,
>which is Allied Signal (the smae company for FRAM, First Defense).
>
>Only suckers buy the OEM Honda coolant.
The real suckers are the ones with the broken timing belts and $2K head
jobs.
>Same thing for oil filters and ATF.
On every evaluation I've seen of oil filters the Honda is superior.
>Just remember to change your oil & filter every 5000KMS.
More BS. Unless you live in the frozen wastes and run short trips 5K miles
is a good compromise and less wasteful.
>Save your money. Don't get ripped off at Honda!!!
B-b-b-but who'll do the head job?
Bror Jace
> > The stuff is Prestone,
> > which is Allied Signal (the smae company for FRAM, First Defense).
>
> Oh, now THERE'S a recommendation........<G>........
Hehe, the kiss of death!
Bror Jace
> Prestone Anitfreeze does NOT damage the waterpump nor Radiator.
** My experience, as well as he experience of many others on this
forum, conflicts with your baseless proclamation. It is also contrary
to everything put out by Honda and contrary to the advice of my
independent mechanic who specializes in Hondas. The list of people who
disagree with you could go on almost endlessly ...
> You do not need Honda Coolant. All the local Honda Dealers here
> use Prestone. The 'yellow stuff".
** I HIGHLY doubt this. There are alternatives (probably a handful by
now if you'd like to do the research) to Honda-brand coolant but good
ole 'yellow bottle' stuff ain't among them.
I spoke with the mechanics and
> in the shop they get the coolant in big barrels.
** I suspect either you or the mechanics are lying ... or you live in
an area (NYC?) where the dealerships cannot be trusted. Care to be more
specific? I'm sure American Honda would love to know about just such
dealerships whose practices are damaging cars and making owners suffer
needless component failures because they are cutting corners.
The stuff is Prestone,
> which is Allied Signal (the smae company for FRAM, First Defense).
** Fram filters are the bottom of the barrel (unless you believe in
silly, single-bypass tests) and are probbly the flagship product for
Allied Signal.
> Only suckers buy the OEM Honda coolant.
** I'd rather be a sucker to the tune of several dollars than go
through another radiator repair halfway between Albany and Boston -
$500+
> Same thing for oil filters and ATF.
** That's it, just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper ...
> Just remember to change your oil & filter every 5000KMS.
** Not the worst recommendation ... if you are talking miles and not
kilometers.
> Save your money. Don't get ripped off at Honda!!!
** Use your head. Don't be penny wise and dollar foolish.
Tony
moms accord which now has 220,000 miles... Mine has 60,000 miles :-)
Thanks Tony.
Wade Punch
here"?
Just because your local dealers are using the yellow Prestone doesn't mean a
whole lot. Perhaps they use it, because they will get to work on more cars,
down the road??
RM
(George Macdonald) wrote:
>Well RM and I have reported the same experience with the yellow silicate
>containing Prestone: ~20K miles after fill, water pump fail!! In my case I
>noticed the timing belt was loose during a valve check and I changed it a
>couple of weeks later at 75K miles. The water pump could not be turned by
>hand. Oh and on the one just changed last week, after using only Honda
>antifreeze, the old water pump was in great condition at 98K miles.
the Honda coolant is_not the same.
Smell it, taste it, feel it.
I sent an email to the 'technical support' email adress on the
Prestone web site. The reply I got was that their 'extended life'
product was silicate-free and suitable for use in Hondas. They also
stated that since Honda recommends a silicate-free formula, their
standard yellow-bottle product was not recommended.
The Honda ATF has additives that you don't get in any other fluid. It
is different and your tranny shifts better with it.
>>Prestone Anitfreeze does NOT damage the waterpump nor Radiator.
>>You do not need Honda Coolant. All the local Honda Dealers here
>>use Prestone.
None of the local honda dealers here use prestone.
>>Only suckers buy the OEM Honda coolant.
yeah, suckers who like their water pumps to last a long time.
>The real suckers are the ones with the broken timing belts and $2K head
>jobs.
caused by water pump failure from using wrong coolant
>>Same thing for oil filters and ATF.
ummm...those crappy fram filters with the cardboard endcaps, sloppy
threads (typically with a bit of extra metal on there for free) and
the wimpy anti-drainback valves that let the dirty oil drain back
into the pan and let the oil drain from the top-end overnight are a
long way from the filtech filters that honda (and isuzu) uses
>
>On every evaluation I've seen of oil filters the Honda is superior.
yup...and if somehow a filter failure is blamed for an engine failure,
you have a leg to stand on.
>
>>Just remember to change your oil & filter every 5000KMS.
>
>More BS. Unless you live in the frozen wastes and run short trips 5K miles
>is a good compromise and less wasteful.
>
>>Save your money. Don't get ripped off at Honda!!!
www.hparts.com. I can buy honda filters for about 50 cents more than
fram and honda coolant for about the same cost as prestone extended
life.....
>B-b-b-but who'll do the head job?
>
>"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
"He may be a schizophrenic, but he's good people"
George Macdonald
>On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:53:14 GMT, fammacd=!SPAM^noth...@garden.net
>(George Macdonald) wrote:
>
>>Well RM and I have reported the same experience with the yellow silicate
>>containing Prestone: ~20K miles after fill, water pump fail!! In my case I
>>noticed the timing belt was loose during a valve check and I changed it a
>>couple of weeks later at 75K miles. The water pump could not be turned by
>>hand. Oh and on the one just changed last week, after using only Honda
>>antifreeze, the old water pump was in great condition at 98K miles.
>
>the Honda coolant is_not the same.
>
>Smell it, taste it, feel it.
Yes and have you smelled the new Honda Type 2 stuff?... even more
distinctive - marzipan? Mind you I'm not so keen on paying $10. for 1/2
water and it seems to only come pre-mixed. Do they think we don't have the
good sense to use demineralized water?
Rgds, George Macdonald
dnd...@my-deja.com
Regency Honda, Middlegate Honda and Vancouver Honda to name a few...
These are ALL in Vancouver, B.C., Canada.
I checked the Service Advisors and confirmed that they use the big
barrels of Prestone Antifreeze. The parts dept sells only the Honda
labelled stuff. The service department uses the Prestone bulk barrel
stuff. Same goes with ATF, oil, etc...
Call and confirm yourself!!!
Regards.
Hey it's your money, pay a lot more if you want.
In article <3A4045C5...@home.com>,