Cold start problem on '93 Accord
Megan
will turn over fine and repeatedly 'catch' if the weather is mild
enough. Once it finally gets going it will immediately restart with no
problem.
I have replaced the main relay, spark plugs, distributor rotor and cap,
coolant temperature sensor, fuel filter and starter.
I have checked OK on the battery, PGM-FI relay, spark, fuel to rail and
fuel pressure regulator. The check engine light is not on. I have
tried to pull codes and the CEL comes on and stays on until the jump is
removed.
If anyone has any ideas on what is causing my problem I would greatly
appreciate it!
Tegger
@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
Conspicouously missing from your list are the plug wires, the most likely
candidate right now.
How old are the wires, and have you checked to see what the spark is like
when the engine won't fire?
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#checkspark
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Megan
the WD-40 one. That was a no go. I can't get the car started now
(temps in the 20s) to try spraying the water on them. I have owned the
car for one year and have not replaced them in that time. I don't know
how long it had been before that. They appear in good shape... When we
tested for spark my husband saw blue sparks off all four wires.
motsco_
I dont' see any mention of injector cleaner, and your idea of COLD
probably isn't the same as mine (-40C = -40 F). When it tries, tries,
tries , tries to fire, you're just not firing on all cylinders. Run a
can of TECHRON through it or maybe a few tanks of gasohol to clean the
injectors.
What happens if you put the pedal half-way to the floor like the owner's
manual says? I do it all the time if it's below about -15 C.
'Curly'
Tegger
@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
If you're seeing a good, fat blue spark from all four wires, that brings
into question three things:
1) Do you get the same spark at the *plugs* that are currently in the
engine now? Pull 'em and see.
2) Is the ignition timing correctly set?
3) If you crank with the plugs all removed, can you smell fuel being pushed
out of the spark plug holes?
Have you considered the possibility of flooding? Press the gas pedal
*to the floor* and hold it there while you crank. Crank for up to 30
seconds, wait five minutes, then try the same thing again. No go?
More questions for you:
Do you hear the fuel pump run for two seconds when you first turn the key
to "II"? (Pump is under the trunk floor, whines when it's running)
Does the Check Engine light come on for two seconds during that same
period, then go off?
Tegger
@corp.supernews.com:
We don't get no Alberta-style forty-below around here, but even at -20F
I've never had to touch the gas and the puppy fires up just fine. A mite
slow, but fine.
Wowwwww-WOwwwwww-WOOwwwww-WOOOWwrrrrrrrrrmmMMMMMM.............
Really makes you think of molasses, doesn't it?
Megan
work tomorrow and get back to you.
What I can tell you:
We went ahead and replaced the spark plug wires (since it should have
been done with the other stuff... I know, I know) and that's not the
trick.
I have not tried injector cleaner. I will be sure to once I can get
the dang thing going again! (I'm trying to sweet talk my way into a
heated garage, so we'll see.)
If I push the pedal half-way or all of the way down it doesn't seem to
make a difference. I can smell exhaust if I do press the pedal down.
I have not tried it for 30 seconds and then waited 5 min. yet.
I do hear the fuel pump run when the key is in II.
Yes, the CEL comes on for two seconds and then goes off.
We have tried Tegger's suggestion of letting the fuel pump run it's 2
sec cycle 10-12 times in a row and that didn't work either. Can I
assume that the rail is keeping adequate pressure since this trick
didn't work?
Untold riches await whoever can figure this *stuff* out!
Tegger
@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com:
Do it all! Not just *some* of the suggestions!
I repeat:
If you're seeing a good, fat blue spark from all four wires, that brings
into question three things:
1) Do you get the same spark at the *plugs* that are currently in the
engine *now*? Pull 'em and check.
2) Is the ignition timing correctly set? Have you checked?
3) If you crank with the plugs all removed, can you smell fuel being
pushed out of the spark plug holes? GROUND THE PLUG WIRES WHILE
CRANKING!!!!!!!!
Have you considered the possibility of flooding? Press the gas pedal
*to the floor* and hold it there while you crank. Crank for up to 30
seconds, wait five minutes, then try the same thing again. No go?
Read carefully and post again. A car needs very few things to get going.
you need to make sure those few things are there.
Megan
We are working through your questions as fast as possible!
All 4 sparks had a blue spark but my husband thought that they looked a
little small. This is the first time he's seen spark on a Honda so
that may be relative. The plugs were wet with fuel, even up around the
threads. Is this normal?
We have not taken all four out at once and checked for fuel smell but
we could certainly smell it on the plugs and in the holes individually.
We have not had the timing checked.
Tegger
news:1165079743.7...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Tegger,
>
> We are working through your questions as fast as possible!
>
> All 4 sparks had a blue spark but my husband thought that they looked
> a little small. This is the first time he's seen spark on a Honda so
> that may be relative.
If it's blue, it *should* be OK.
If you have a second car, see what that car's spark looks like under the
SAME lighting conditions. If the Honda's looks the same as the other
car's it's fine.
Are you using an aftermarket coil? Aftermarket wires?
> The plugs are wet with fuel, even up around the
> threads. Is this normal?
No!!!
>
> We have not taken all four out at once and checked for fuel smell but
> we could certainly smell it on the plugs and in the holes
> individually.
>
> We have not had the timing checked.
>
If the plugs are wet, you're flooded. In other words, the mixture in the
cylinders is far too rich to be able to fire.
Pull all the plugs and leave the engine overnight to allow the plugs to
dry and some of the fuel to evaporate from the cylinders. Next day, put
the plugs back (check their gaps first), then HOLD THE PEDAL TO THE
FLOOR while you crank.
Now, why are you flooded? Without seeing the car, I'm not sure. It might
just be from numerous unsuccessful attempts at starting. Try the above
first.
Have you ascertained the plug wires are connected the right way around,
with each wire going to the correct cylinder?
nm...@wt.net
Megan wrote:
The plugs were wet with fuel, even up around the
> threads. Is this normal?
Nope, and that's most likely why it's not starting. I'd almost bet
$$$$ if you slapped a new set in, or dried those out to work, it'll
fire right up. One note though...In my experience, fouled plugs
are not worth wasting time on if they have any oil or carbon crud.
The reason being , they seem to refoul too easily. New plugs
don't foul near as easy unless you have some serious trouble,
being they are nice and clean.
I'd get new ones. And then keep an eye on them after you start
driving it again to see if they get fouled from driving, or if this
just
happened from trying to start a cold car with semi fouled plugs.
If the plugs also show a lot of oil or carbon, thats usually an
engine problem. If they are just mainly wet with a slight oil film,
you probably fouled them trying to start it, which isn't really hard
if the wx is cold, and the plugs were half fouled to begin with.
Once it's running ok, check the plugs every few weeks to see how
they look. They normally should be dry and tan looking. If they are
oily or carboned up, you need some engine work. If they are white
looking, you are running too lean. Probably not an issue here..
MK
Grumpy AuContraire
Wet plugs can be cleaned with an application of carb (spray) cleaner and
letting 'em sit in the sun for a half hour or so.
JT
nm...@wt.net
Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> Wet plugs can be cleaned with an application of carb (spray) cleaner and
> letting 'em sit in the sun for a half hour or so.
>
> JT
Yea, I've done that quite a few times. It'll work to get them
started, but if they sometimes have flooding problems
or oil fouling, they will refoul real easy if it's real cold. Guess
just depends how bad they are, and how the car runs after it's
going again. Most times, if I get a set that gets so bad the car
won't even run, I'll just slap a new set in. The car will run better
with more power usually, and they aren't as easy to refoul..
I'll then clean and keep the old ones as backups..
IE: sometimes I'll yank a plug and break the insulator off..
It's handy having an extra around until you can get a new set.
If you can clean em, and the car runs right after it's going with
no flooding, or rich mixtures, oil fouling, they will usually be ok.
Once run, they kinda further clean themselves. It's more the
cars that flood easy or burn oil that I recommend new ones.
MK
Megan
overnight. This morning we tried to start it and it wouldn't go. We
pulled a plug and it was really wet again. Should I keep the car warm
and try some new plugs?
So the flooding is a secondary condition to the initial no start
problem? Ugh!
Thanks for everyone's help! I really appreciate it!
Tegger
@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
You've got some serious problem with fuel delivery.
Are ALL the plugs wet? If so, your fuel pressure may be too high.
If only ONE or TWO plus are wet, those injectors are leaking.
Megan
The plug nearest the drive belt was wet at the threads. The next two
over were wet at the tip and then the fourth was dry.
Is there anything that we can do before we try a new set of plugs? I
hate to buy new plugs just to get them wet and ruined again.
Thanks!
Tegger
@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Are you sure it's fuel on the plugs and not oil?
What color are the plugs? Can you take a close-up picture of the plugs?
Megan
replaced them with new ones and got it to start (after some initial
hesitation). I let it run for a few minutes and it restarted no
problem. I filled it up with gas and a bottle of Techron as suggested
earlier.
I have pics of the plugs but am not sure how to post them here... One
plug is a different color than the other three but they were out of
order by the time I got to them. I would assume it's the first one
since that was the one that was more wet.
Tegger
73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com:
> The plugs smelled of gas and didn't have visible oil on them. We
> replaced them with new ones and got it to start (after some initial
> hesitation). I let it run for a few minutes and it restarted no
> problem. I filled it up with gas and a bottle of Techron as suggested
> earlier.
>
> I have pics of the plugs but am not sure how to post them here.
Email the pics to me. Don't post binaries to this group.
Tegger
73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com:
Your pictures are here:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/megan_plugs/
You've got one cylinder that's a real problem. Its injector is either
leaking like crazy or the plug's not firing properly. That's the black one.
What I'm suspecting right now is a severely leaky injector. A Motorvac
service will cure that unless the injector is mechanically faulty.
www.motorvac.com
Check the site for a list of distributors in your area. The service is
close to $100, but new OEM injectors are over $250 each.
The other plugs seem OK, with obvious evidence of firing on the central
electrode. These plugs are either very new, or have covered very low
mileage.
As well, you may have some luck getting more reliable starting if you
install NGK plugs, as recommended by Honda. Some have reported better
results using NGK.
When was the last time your car was taken for a good long hard run on the
highway? Does the car sit a lot?
Megan
Thanks for posting the pics and the info. I will look into the
motorvac service.
I still had the cold start problem this morning. Would a leaky
injector cause the cold start issue?
The plugs in the pic are a few months old. The last time the car was
on a long run was the end of October for 120 miles. I drive it every
day that it starts, including 15 miles of 60+mph.
Here's a kicker for you: Yesterday when I was basking in the glory of
having my car running again, the D4 light started flashing and I seemed
to lose 1st and 4th gear. We jumped the service connector and the CEL
flashed a code 15. Does the D4 light flash a code too? I drove it
later and no light, no trans prob. I might be ready to toss in my keys!
motsco_
> I still had the cold start problem this morning. Would a leaky
> injector cause the cold start issue?
==================================
A cold start issue that _only_ ever appears after the vehicle sits for
about ten hours is usually a flooded engine, caused by a dribbling
injector. The Owner's manual tells us how to start a flooded Honda, and
injector cleaner or Gasohol often cures it it in the long run.
My Odyssey did it to me and had me totally stumped. I never would have
believed my Honda could be flooded all by itself after sitting in the
garage overnight. :-(
'Curly'
Tegger
@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> Tegger,
> Thanks for posting the pics and the info. I will look into the
> motorvac service.
>
> I still had the cold start problem this morning. Would a leaky
> injector cause the cold start issue?
Very likely given the condition of that black plug.
>
> The plugs in the pic are a few months old. The last time the car was
> on a long run was the end of October for 120 miles. I drive it every
> day that it starts, including 15 miles of 60+mph.
Still, something's very wrong with an injector.
>
> Here's a kicker for you: Yesterday when I was basking in the glory of
> having my car running again, the D4 light started flashing and I seemed
> to lose 1st and 4th gear. We jumped the service connector and the CEL
> flashed a code 15. Does the D4 light flash a code too? I drove it
> later and no light, no trans prob. I might be ready to toss in my keys!
>
This usually happens to trannies that have not had their fluid changed in a
long time (certain parts are stuck). I'd give details on how to determine
the code behind the D4 light, but at this point, just bring it to a Honda
dealer. Your car has had poor maintenance over the years and is now feeling
the effects.
jim beam
> Tegger,
> Thanks for posting the pics and the info. I will look into the
> motorvac service.
>
> I still had the cold start problem this morning. Would a leaky
> injector cause the cold start issue?
or a dead plug. those delcos are not very good. replace them with oem
ngk or densos - they'll last ages and keep on firing reliably long after
they're melted stubs of meteorite.
>
> The plugs in the pic are a few months old.
doesn't matter. replace anyway. look into the injector thing as well,
but crappy plugs can send you on a wild goose chase and new ones are too
cheap to bother /not/ replacing.
> The last time the car was
> on a long run was the end of October for 120 miles. I drive it every
> day that it starts, including 15 miles of 60+mph.
>
> Here's a kicker for you: Yesterday when I was basking in the glory of
> having my car running again, the D4 light started flashing and I seemed
> to lose 1st and 4th gear. We jumped the service connector and the CEL
> flashed a code 15. Does the D4 light flash a code too? I drove it
> later and no light, no trans prob. I might be ready to toss in my keys!
change fluid. if problem recurs, it's unrelated to the above. if it's
the transmission control unit, you can get them from junk yards for ~$50
or less.
Megan
I did replace the plugs, as I posted earlier, and they were NGKs so I
should be good in regard to that.
For now I will tackle the leaky injector and trans fluid. Hopefully
once I take care of those things I will have my good ol' Honda back!