Pissed - Need Advice - Engine Misfire on '03 Honda Accord

[KellyCrash]

I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need
the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda
dealer for the service. When I made the appointment I said, "My check
engine light is on also. Can you check that?" Yes, not a problem.

When I came in on the day of my appointment I said again that I need
the 45K service & my check engine light is on. I asked if it was on
because it needed this service. The tech. said no. She said it
usually comes on because of a problem with the emissions system.

An hour goes by & the tech. comes to me in the waiting area and says
that the Check Engine light is on because the engine is misfiring. She
said that they needed to flush the pistons? Perhaps I didn't hear her
correctly, but I swear that is what I heard her say. She says it will
be about $100. OH & they reccomend that I have the power steering
fluid replaced. Perhaps because of my ignorance I am remembering what
she said incorrectly. One thing that I clearly remember was that there
were two extra services they were performing and that each service was
about $100 & that one of those services was supposed to take care of
the engine misfire problem. Great. $500+ on my car. Just what I was
looking forward to. We just spent $500 for a brake job that I'm almost
positive could have been avoided. That's a vent for another thread.

So I have spent $1000 on this hunk of junk this summer while still
making monthly payments. I understand Hondas are great cars and
whatnot, but you can't prove it to me right now. It might drive nicely
and be a nice car, but I've never spent this much money on a car while
still making payments.

Anyway, the VERY next day I start the car up. My 2nd trip of the day &
the Check Engine light is on again!!! Talk about pissed off!! I am
livid. I called the dealership and the person is at lunch that I need
to talk to. I leave a message. The person calls me back about an hour
later & I didn't hear the phone ring. 45 mins after that I call back
and make an appointment to bring my car in the next day.

So I bring it in for service and the people are telling me that the
service that was performed would most likely not take care of a engine
misfire problem, but that it might. What the fuck is that all about?
My receipt says, "Air Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 BG2902 Air
Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 57 CPK 1 2902 Plenum Service
Kit Total price for this is $99.86. They said that the check engine
light could be on for any number of reasons and that a misfire code
could be any different number of things, but that service would most
likely not take care of it. WTF???

I'm so pissed. I have just moved from MA to NC. I purchased my car in
MA and the dealership I have dealt with up there has always been very
nice & pleasant and knowledgable. I am so mad that I was told the
service that was performed would take care of my problem & it didn't.
To go back there and for them to tell me that service most likely would
not fix the problem is infuriating. I want to know why the hell the
service was done & charged to me if it wasn't going to take care of the
problem.

So after an hour at the dealership today they said they need more time
to run further tests to figure out what's wrong.

I asked if they had a shuttle car that could take us home. NO. I
asked if they had a loaner car I could take. No again.

Oh I'm so pissed off. We took my car home and got my husband's car &
returned to the dealership to drop my car back off.

I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm dealing with incompetents and
getting fucked in the process.

Is this normal? Is my frustration and feelings uncalled for?

Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have.

[jim beam]

ok, you are getting hosed, but getting pissed won't work as a remedy
strategy. call honda usa's national customer service line, and calmly
explain the problems. write them out before hand if it'll help you be
able to do it more effectively.

here's the deal on the car:

1. the check engine light will give a code the dealer can read off the
engine computer. that should give them an exact diagnostic on the
problem. they should tell you the code - it'll be something like
"p0145". look that up in the odbcII code list on tegger.com to see what
it means.

2. a "flush" service is likely injector cleaner. you can do that
yourself for $5 or less.

3. $500 for a brake job at only 45k miles is a little steep. it's
technically possible it needed the service, but statistically unlikely.
discuss that with honda usa's customer service rep. have your
invoices handy.

4. there is no power steering fluid service interval specified by honda
- it's usually good for the life of the car. don't buy that one.

5. the plenum service is throttle body cleaner. again, it's possible at
your mileage, but unlikely. you could do that yourself, depending on
how handy you are.

6. your car is almost certainly still under warranty!!!

bottom line, call honda and calmly explain what happened, why you think
it unreasonable, and /ask/ what can be done about it. honey works much
better than vinegar. if you do this right, honda will call the dealer
for you and tell them to sort you out. again, honey works better than
vinegar. don't call when you're angry!!!

good luck. get back to us with any questions. and once you've sorted
this out, find yourself a different dealer or a good independent
mechanic to deal with this stuff from now on. your wallet is ultimately
your best weapon.

[TeGGeR®]

"KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1154569910.8...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:

> I admittedly know next to nothing about cars.

<snip>

That much is clear. Which is no embarrassment, of course.

Call the service advisor (not "tech") and ask what the error code was in
both incidents. If she refuses to tell, insist that is your right to know
since you paid for the services.

Those alphanumeric codes are critical to ANY analysis.

And please keep your descriptions much shorter. My eyes glazed over reading
your magnum opus, and I never finished it.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

[John Horner]

It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply
padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while
at the same time failing to properly diagnose whatever is actually
setting the check engine light.

Run, don't walk, to someone who knows what they are doing and operates
an honest shop.

John

[butch burton]

Can you tell us what city or area of the country where this dealer is
located - this guy is a crook - people like him can truly be called
stealers. Also let us know what Honda USA has to say about this crook.

[KellyCrash]

Autopark Honda in Cary, NC

[KellyCrash]

I want to call the 800 # as suggested, but my car is still at the
dealership. They're supposedly doing tests to figure out why the
Engine light is coming on. I'm waiting for them to call me back & let
me know something.

Should I wait or should I call now? The service manager said he would
refund us the cost of the Air Intake Service & the Power Steering Fluid
exchange. I am going to hold him to it. When they call me to tell me
what's going on with my car & how much it's going to cost I will
research it before I say yes or no.

In my original message when I said service technician I should have
said service advisor. I just looked at my invoice again and saw I had
the person's title wrong.

[KellyCrash]

I forgot to mention something that I suppose was pretty important. The
service manager offered to credit the cost of the two extra services
they performed back to our credit card. We agreed on the Air Intake
Service because we were specifically told that would take care of the
Misfire, but said if the Power Steering fluid needed to be flushed & we
agreed we were fine with it. Now that I'm hearing what you are saying
that Power Steering fluid is typcially good for the life of the car
then I am going to insist that be credited back as well.

I did call the 800#. They assigned me a case # & said someone would
look into it & contact the dealer in 2 days.

I do not think anything has been credited back yet. I assume they will
apply the $$ to the new bill whenever they figure out what's wrong with
my car.

[duckbill]

That was some interesting reading and you have already received some good
advice. I'm afraid many service advisors try to act like they are master
technicians, when in fact their main job, in my opinion, is to bring in
the $$$$. You're aware you're still under Honda's emission warranty I
hope? I would read up on the coverage, some items 5 years - 50,000 miles.
Some items are longer I suspect. Changing the power steering fluid is not
needed at your low milage, but your auto transmission and coolant should
have already been changed. You must use only genuine Honda power steering
fluid, same goes for auto transmission fluid. Many people on this Forum say
to only use Honda coolant as well. Good luck

[Elle]

"KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com> wrote

> I do not think anything has been credited back yet.

A credit to one's credit card account typically will take a
few days following the merchant's completion of his/her end
of the paperwork, etc.

Your posts are going to help others. Hang in there.

[KellyCrash]

They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the
car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's
warmed up.

The misfire codes are P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, &
P0306.

They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The
service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles.
Whatever. I don't know what to think.

[KellyCrash]

Thanks. They aren't going to credit anything yet. They want to figure
out what's wrong witht he car first and then when they figured out
what's owed or not owed they will issue a credit.

I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say.
First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot.
He says he wouldn't be able to sleep at night if he went about business
that way. Anyway, he seems to think it's an electrical issue. He does
think that this will come under the warranty & if not he said that
he'll contact Honda & ask them to cover it. He says 9 out of 10 times
Honda comes through.

He seems to think my car is safe to drive even if the engine light
comes on. I was concerned because I'm supposed to be going out of town
on Sun. & need to take my car.

Sorry Tegger if my posts are too long for you.

[Dick]

On 3 Aug 2006 12:26:41 -0700, "KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com>
wrote:

I would definitely take this up with the Honda Customer Relations
Office 1-800-999-1009. As stated earlier there is no periodic
requirement for flushing the power steering fluid. The only time it
is required in the manual is if you use a non-Honda fluid in an
emergency. Then you are supposed to have the system flushed ASAP.
There IS a requirement at 45,000 miles to flush the brake fluid. You
might question why they did the non-required one, and not the required
one.

These service writers are really sneaky at times. I find the real
service managers to often be easier to deal with and more honest. The
service writers just want to sell you stuff. Of course I realize the
service writers work for the service manager. Several times I have
had service done that wasn't necessary at that mileage. Their
computers are even set up to print out these unnecessary service
procedures on the service order so it looks like it is a Honda
requirement. This has happened to me so many times I now carry a copy
of the Maintenance Schedule from the Owner's Manual with me to compare
what they told me is required with what Honda has specified in the
manual. Sometimes if you question something, they will say it's
because your car falls under the severe service schedule. That
doesn't work with me anymore because I already know my car falls under
the severe service schedule.

My advice to you is to scan a copy of the pages from the manual that
are applicable to your engine and driving conditions. Then, when they
start quoting requirements, take out your sheet and have them show you
where it is required.

Good luck on the check engine light problem. You should know that the
first thing you should check when the light comes on is the fuel
filler cap to see that it is tight fitting. This is explained on page
349 of the manual. Also read the pages on emissions controls starting
at page 371. Then read about the Federal emissions warranties in the
Warranties book that came with your car, starting on page 14. An
informed customer is better armed to do battle with incompetent or
sneaky service people. You really need to talk to Honda Customer
Service at the number I gave you above.

Dick

[Earle Horton]

"Dick" <w6...@k7yca.org> wrote in message
news:2jr4d2pbvv3ri33t4...@4ax.com...

> On 3 Aug 2006 12:26:41 -0700, "KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the
> >car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's
> >warmed up.
> >
> >The misfire codes are P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, &
> >P0306.
> >
> >They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The
> >service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles.
> >Whatever. I don't know what to think.
>
> I would definitely take this up with the Honda Customer Relations
> Office 1-800-999-1009. As stated earlier there is no periodic
> requirement for flushing the power steering fluid. The only time it
> is required in the manual is if you use a non-Honda fluid in an
> emergency. Then you are supposed to have the system flushed ASAP.
> There IS a requirement at 45,000 miles to flush the brake fluid. You
> might question why they did the non-required one, and not the required
> one.

I used to know a used car dealer in Redmond, WA, who specialized in high
mileage but still serviceable vehicles for the economy crowd. He claimed
that lots of the over one hundred thousand mile cars with rack and pinion
steering had that part fail, until he adopted a policy of flushing the power
steering fluid on every one that went through his lot.

I would question the required versus not required issue myself.

Earle

[KellyCrash]

I did contact Honda Customer Relations today & was given a case # and
told that they would follow up with me (or the dealer?) in two days.

The first thing I did when I saw that the engine light was on was to
tighten the gas cap. That didn't work. There is definitely a problem
with the engine misfiring when it's started up.

I will take a look at the manual more closely before having any further
service done in the future. Honestly this is the first time I've had
any extra services done that weren't a part of the standard service.
Then again this is my first time at this particular Honda dealer too.

The dealer back in MA doesn't do extra services like this & they also
have no haggle pricing. It was part of the reason I bought my car
there.

I've gotten my cars serviced at dealerships in the past & I've never
had any thing like this done before. If I brought my car in for an oil
change that's what I got. If I brought the car in for the 30K service
or whatever it might be that's what I got.

We'll see how it turns out. The service advisor called me around
5:15pm or so and said that they had updated the computer & the car was
no longer coming up with a misfire code. He said that they thought the
car hadn't been allowed to cool off long enough tho & that it may be an
inaccurate reading. He said they would do more testing in the morning.

[Grumpy AuContraire]

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <1154633532.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,

> "KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say.
> > First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot.
>

> dingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGwhooo
> oop!whoooooop!whooooooop!
>
> He's in the wrong. And he's giving the "I'm insulted!" reaction to try
> to hide that.

Yessir... Nothing like the shady guy trying to lay on a guilt trip!

<G>

JT

[John Horner]

Modern stealerships routinely tell people that they need services like
this which the manufacturer does not suggest or endorse. It is a profit
booster for the shop, pure and simple.

It pisses me off that Honda and others don't crack down on the deceptive
sales tactics used. Dealer XYZ will say "we recommend a ______ at
30,000 miles to protect your car, shall we take care of that today".
The customer might think that the Honda service schedule says _______
needs to be done, but the fact is that the dealer is just trying to make
more money. Heck, sometimes the work then isn't even done. How would
you know if the power steering fluid actually got flushed?

John

[jim beam]

KellyCrash wrote:
> They are still trying to figure out what the problem is. It seems the
> car only misfires when it's first started and smoothes out when it's
> warmed up.
>
> The misfire codes are P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, P0304, P0305, &
> P0306.

ok, check this out:
http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/generic/p0300-random-multiple-cylinder-misfire-detected.php
the fact that you're registering misfire on all the individual cylinders
as well means it's highly unlikely to be any individual item like a plug
or injector. the shop should be fixing something that affects
everything like egr or a sensor. and they should do it under warranty.

>
> They're not going to refund the power steering fluid exchange. The
> service manager says they reccomend it be done every 30K miles.
> Whatever. I don't know what to think.

speak to honda usa. that is not in the service specs - they're hosing you.

[Sparky Spartacus]

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <1154633532.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> I talked to the service manager in depth and he had a lot to say.
>> First of he's insulted that I think they're padding bills and whatnot.
>

> dingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingdingWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGwhooo
> oop!whoooooop!whooooooop!
>
> He's in the wrong. And he's giving the "I'm insulted!" reaction to try
> to hide that.

Or he feigns being insulted because he knows he's in the wrong - happens
all the time. Mostly he's trying to make the customer feel guilty/sorry
for him, don't play along, Kelly, business is business and it's your $$$.

IMHO you have a good car (I have an '03 Accord myself), but a crap dealer.

[Sparky Spartacus]

Amen, brother!

[Sparky Spartacus]

John Horner wrote:
> It sounds like you are being screwed around by a dealer who is simply
> padding the bill with extra services that Honda doesn't call for while
> at the same time failing to properly diagnose whatever is actually
> setting the check engine light.

The worst of both worlds - a winning combo!

[KellyCrash]

My car is home although it is not fixed. They said it is perfectly
safe to drive. I needed the car for a trip to the beach this weekend.
They wouldn't give me a loaner car for my trip. It's only a couple of
hundred miles from here, but I understand their policy.

I am supposed to take it back when I get back in a week and they will
provide me with a loaner car.

I took my husband's car in for service today. They came back & told me
that his back brakes needed to be done. His car has like 32K on it
and his brakes are much tighter than mine. I told them NO. We'll get
another opinion somewhere else.

I'm really disappointed in my experience & depressed about it. I
talked to a mechanic today who said that if the car is still under
warranty the best place to take the car is to the dealer. There are
other dealers around, but I believe they're a good 20 miles away & are
owned by the same person.

Today when I brought my husband's car in for service I told the service
advisor I wanted to know what was going on with my car. It took more
than 45 mins. to find anything out. I asked when I first arrived and
then 45 mins later when I went to ask again she told me she couldn't
get through to the person working on it that there phone was busy. She
said she would come find me when she knew something. I waited about 15
more mins before I went back over to ask again and then she told me
they had replaced the coil and were waiting for the car to cool off to
test again.

Still getting the misfire.

This might be picky, but when you have a 3 year old it makes a
difference. Their play area SUCKS. My old dealership had free sodas -
coke, diet coke, juice, milk, bottled water, donuts, bagels,
crackers/cheese, & cereal for customers. This place has free popcorn.
Waiting at this place for service is not fun. My daughter would
actually get excited about going to the car dealer like it was an
amusement park or something. Not anymore!! I guess I have been
spoiled.

[CIL]

Just for my 2 cents.

Take good notes with date, time and person that you talked with. This will
be very handy when all is said and done...

"KellyCrash" <Kelly....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154569910.8...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>I admittedly know next to nothing about cars. Honda emails me I need
> the 45K service. I made an appointment & took it into my local Honda
> dealer for the service. When I made the appointment I said, "My check
> engine light is on also. Can you check that?" Yes, not a problem.
>
> When I came in on the day of my appointment I said again that I need
> the 45K service & my check engine light is on. I asked if it was on
> because it needed this service. The tech. said no. She said it
> usually comes on because of a problem with the emissions system.
>
> An hour goes by & the tech. comes to me in the waiting area and says
> that the Check Engine light is on because the engine is misfiring. She
> said that they needed to flush the pistons? Perhaps I didn't hear her
> correctly, but I swear that is what I heard her say. She says it will
> be about $100. OH & they reccomend that I have the power steering
> fluid replaced. Perhaps because of my ignorance I am remembering what
> she said incorrectly. One thing that I clearly remember was that there
> were two extra services they were performing and that each service was
> about $100 & that one of those services was supposed to take care of
> the engine misfire problem. Great. $500+ on my car. Just what I was
> looking forward to. We just spent $500 for a brake job that I'm almost
> positive could have been avoided. That's a vent for another thread.
>
> So I have spent $1000 on this hunk of junk this summer while still
> making monthly payments. I understand Hondas are great cars and
> whatnot, but you can't prove it to me right now. It might drive nicely
> and be a nice car, but I've never spent this much money on a car while
> still making payments.
>
> Anyway, the VERY next day I start the car up. My 2nd trip of the day &
> the Check Engine light is on again!!! Talk about pissed off!! I am
> livid. I called the dealership and the person is at lunch that I need
> to talk to. I leave a message. The person calls me back about an hour
> later & I didn't hear the phone ring. 45 mins after that I call back
> and make an appointment to bring my car in the next day.
>
> So I bring it in for service and the people are telling me that the
> service that was performed would most likely not take care of a engine
> misfire problem, but that it might. What the fuck is that all about?
> My receipt says, "Air Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 BG2902 Air
> Intake Service (Throttle Plate) BG2902 57 CPK 1 2902 Plenum Service
> Kit Total price for this is $99.86. They said that the check engine
> light could be on for any number of reasons and that a misfire code
> could be any different number of things, but that service would most
> likely not take care of it. WTF???
>
> I'm so pissed. I have just moved from MA to NC. I purchased my car in
> MA and the dealership I have dealt with up there has always been very
> nice & pleasant and knowledgable. I am so mad that I was told the
> service that was performed would take care of my problem & it didn't.
> To go back there and for them to tell me that service most likely would
> not fix the problem is infuriating. I want to know why the hell the
> service was done & charged to me if it wasn't going to take care of the
> problem.
>
> So after an hour at the dealership today they said they need more time
> to run further tests to figure out what's wrong.
>
> I asked if they had a shuttle car that could take us home. NO. I
> asked if they had a loaner car I could take. No again.
>
> Oh I'm so pissed off. We took my car home and got my husband's car &
> returned to the dealership to drop my car back off.
>
> I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm dealing with incompetents and
> getting fucked in the process.
>
> Is this normal? Is my frustration and feelings uncalled for?
>
> Thanks for reading. I would appreciate any input you might have.
>

[mrbubl]

So where did this saga endup and what was the problem finally? Curious
minds want to know.