Camshaft and Crankshaft Sensors?
powr...@aol.com
liter
Was getting a code 54, the code for camshaft position sensor. Autozone
tested and confirmed this. Bought and installed new camshaft position
sensor. On first test drive, within a block or so, got a bucking and
jerking with backfiring. I figured it was the paper spacer on the end
of the sensor wearing off. Got the car home, let it idle to warm up and
another test drive. Everything working great. Drove the car for 50 some
miles last night, ran great, in fact seemed to have more pep than
usual.
This morning the wife drove the car to kid's school (a little over a
mile) and got jerking and hesitating. Service Engine Light came on. On
the way back got jerking for about two blocks then smoothed out and ran
normal. Now I get a code 11. Most curious.
Code 11: 11 No ignition reference signal detected during cranking (bad
Hall effect) OR timing belt skipped one or more teeth; OR loss of
either camshaft or crankshaft position sensor. Can cause the engine to
stop working entirely with no limp-home mode.
I'm figuring it's not the cam sensor, doubtful it's the timing
belt skipped since it ran smooth last night. That leaves no ignition
reference signal or crankshaft sensor.
Any ideas? Is there a way to test for these problems before I start
buying more parts?
MT-2500
You need to check for OBD11 codes.
Could be a bad bad new sensor or you replaced the wrong one.
The crankshaft sensor is the one that uses the spacer dot.
--
MT-2500
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powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2iv...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> You need to check for OBD11 codes.
Here's what I've found for 96-97 Caravans
Code 11-Intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position
sensors.
Code 11-Crankshaft position sensor target windows have too much
variation.
Code 11-No crank reference signal detected during engine cranking.
> Could be a bad bad new sensor or you replaced the wrong one.
> The crankshaft sensor is the one that uses the spacer dot.
So this is all wrong? (fig. 3) This is exactly what the part I bought
looked like and identically matched the part I removed:
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166207318.2...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Did you not read what I told you on the last post???
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Did you not read what I told you on the last post???
Yes, but I must be in denial. :-)
Looks like I'll be replacing the crankshaft sensor too.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166214023.4...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Ok but even that doesn't guarantee a fix until a scan tool is used to
monitor the problem. It could be a PCM or even wire harness problems. The
other sensor is cheap and easy to install. Go for it!!!
Glenn
philthy
plate without removing trans and see if the flex plate is cracked and
separated
a bore scope can see up there and you won't have to pay the price of
r&r'ing trans to be sure that is not the issue
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Looks like I'll be replacing the crankshaft sensor too.
> Ok but even that doesn't guarantee a fix until a scan tool is used to
> monitor the problem. It could be a PCM or even wire harness problems. The
> other sensor is cheap and easy to install. Go for it!!!
Yep, you're right. I went ahead and replaced the crank position sensor.
No joy. The still car bucks and jerks and now I have a code 43.
Code
43 Peak primary coil current not achieved with max dwell time
OR
43 Cylinder misfire
OR
43 Problem in power module to logic module interface
I also noticed something strange--the Service Engine Now light and the
Cruise Control light were blinking while the car was misfiring.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166289825.5...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
wires? And how many miles are on it?
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> when was the last time this vehicle had a tune up with a good set of plug
> wires? And how many miles are on it?
62,000 miles. We got it with 19,000 miles on it. Have never replaced
plugs or plug wires.
More info: I drove it around the block again and it ran smoothly,
normally. I disconnected the battery for five minutes to clear the
codes and once again drove it around the block and this time got
jerking and bucking again, though not as bad as the first drive after
crank sensor install. Service Engine light has not come on (yet).
MT-2500
powr...@aol.com Wrote:
>
> > MT-2500 <MT-2500.2iv...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
>
> > You need to check for OBD11 codes.
>
>
> Here's what I've found for 96-97 Caravans
>
> Code 11-Intermittent loss of either camshaft or crankshaft position
> sensors.
>
> Code 11-Crankshaft position sensor target windows have too much
> variation.
>
> Code 11-No crank reference signal detected during engine cranking.
>
>
> > Could be a bad bad new sensor or you replaced the wrong one.
> > The crankshaft sensor is the one that uses the spacer dot.
>
>
> So this is all wrong? (fig. 3) This is exactly what the part I bought
> looked like and identically matched the part I removed:
>
CODE 11 does not say which one.
You need the OBD11 codes to find the right one.
And like said knowing auto zone could even be a bad new sensor.:rofl:
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166294619.2...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
problem. replacing the plugs and wires. But once again, a good scan tool
would confirm that!!!
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would be willing to bet all you need is a tune up to eliminate this
> problem. replacing the plugs and wires. But once again, a good scan tool
> would confirm that!!!
I'm going to have it scoped out on Monday, even if my next repair
attempt is successful.
I'm going to pull the crank sensor out and see if the paper spacer is
missing. I'm thinking that maybe I didn't get the sensor seated in
there far enough and it's giving unreliable signals to the PCM. My
reasoning is the Cruise light coming on and off when the engine
sputters. The Cruise Control uses the crank position sensor to sense
engine speed, correct? The paper spacer seemed to be about .010" thick.
I've got lots of card stock laying around so if it's missing I'll make
a spacer and glue it on and try to install the crank sensor again.
powr...@aol.com
> I'm going to pull the crank sensor out and see if the paper spacer is
> missing. I'm thinking that maybe I didn't get the sensor seated in
> there far enough and it's giving unreliable signals to the PCM. My
> reasoning is the Cruise light coming on and off when the engine
> sputters.
The paper spacer was still on the end of the crank sensor, just
slightly pushed off-center and overhanging the edge. I used my thumb to
push it back in the center of the end of the sensor and reinstalled it
pressing the sensor into the flywheel housing while tightening the
bolt. (I had done this previously but this time was more ambitious, but
it's hard to get leverage in such an awkward position.)
Test drive started out promising then began sputtering and backfiring
again. This time the Service Engine Light came on. I've now got a code
11 again. I'll pull the sensor again tomorrow and check for the
presence of the paper spacer. Maybe this time I'll pull the battery out
so I can get more leverage when reinstalling.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166323985.9...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
vehicle. It is not accurate!! use a scan tool to retrieve the correct code
GLENN
powr...@aol.com
> maxpower wrote:
> You can not go by cycling the key to retrieve fault codes on this year
> vehicle. It is not accurate!! use a scan tool to retrieve the correct code
Yes, I intend to have it scanned on Monday.....assuming I can get it to
the shop!
aarcuda69062
<1166323985.9...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
powr...@aol.com wrote:
> The paper spacer was still on the end of the crank sensor, just
> slightly pushed off-center and overhanging the edge.
Indicating that the sensor was installed to the correct depth.
> I used my thumb to
> push it back in the center of the end of the sensor and reinstalled it
> pressing the sensor into the flywheel housing while tightening the
> bolt. (I had done this previously but this time was more ambitious, but
> it's hard to get leverage in such an awkward position.)
>
> Test drive started out promising then began sputtering and backfiring
> again. This time the Service Engine Light came on. I've now got a code
> 11 again. I'll pull the sensor again tomorrow and check for the
> presence of the paper spacer. Maybe this time I'll pull the battery out
> so I can get more leverage when reinstalling.
I'm not sure whether you're trying to fix your van or simply chew
up the crank sensor.
Your problem lies elsewhere...
Get the trouble codes read as Glen suggested.
philthy
powr...@aol.com
Here's an update:
Finally got it into a shop for hookup to a good scan tool. This was a
shop recommended by a good mechanic friend of mine that I trust.
Indeed, there was wall filled with ASE certificates and they advertise
themselves as "engine drivability specialists" and "advanced engine
performance" specialists.
Here's what they found:
When initially started from cold condition, the car runs for about 10
minutes then stumbles and dies. Starts right up, runs for a minute or
so and stumbles and dies. There are no stored trouble codes, no new
codes are being generated. He agreed that the two main culprits had
been identified--cam and crank sensors. It's not the plugs or the plug
wires. If it was a cracked flex plate you'd likely hear something,
didn't rule it out, but considered it a long shot. The guy basically
said he was stumped, suggesting that perhaps a reflashing of the PCM
might do it, but that he didn't have the equipment to do it. He
suggested I take it to a dealer.
Opinions?
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166722754.7...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
Nope, not a reflash problem. If this person had a good scan tool he would be
able to monitor the inputs and outputs of all sensors while the problem was
happening, if they didn't see anything on the scan tool the next thing would
be to do a fuel pressure test.
Sounds to me like they didn't want to get involved in the problem and want
to blow it off to the dealer.
My opinion
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nope, not a reflash problem. If this person had a good scan tool he would be
> able to monitor the inputs and outputs of all sensors while the problem was
> happening, if they didn't see anything on the scan tool the next thing would
> be to do a fuel pressure test.
Just got off the phone with him. He said he was able to do that and was
surprised that he didn't see anything when the vehicle would die. I
asked him about the fuel pressure test and he said they inserted a fuel
pressure meter in line (had a Schrader type valve fitting on it) and
didn't see any drop of pressure when it died.
> Sounds to me like they didn't want to get involved in the problem and want
> to blow it off to the dealer.
> My opinion
Yeah, possibly. They're not charging me anything and the guy requested
that I call him and let him know what the dealership finds out.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166736148.3...@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
is running lean or rich at the time the vehicle was acting up, our scan tool
will show what is called a secondary indicator meaning if it picks up a
glitch in a sensor that is to fast to set a mature fault it will alert the
technician what fault is trying to be set. we also use a tool called the
Co-Pilot which will take a picture of everything the engine controller is
doing so many seconds before and after the problem occurs. Maybe find a
dealer that has a good diagnostician that will tell you what the problem is.
Just curious what state are you in?
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are ways to look at the adaptive fuel memories to see if the vehicle
> is running lean or rich at the time the vehicle was acting up, our scan tool
> will show what is called a secondary indicator meaning if it picks up a
> glitch in a sensor that is to fast to set a mature fault it will alert the
> technician what fault is trying to be set. we also use a tool called the
> Co-Pilot which will take a picture of everything the engine controller is
> doing so many seconds before and after the problem occurs.
Very interesting.
> Maybe find a
> dealer that has a good diagnostician that will tell you what the problem is.
> Just curious what state are you in?
I'm in Minnesota and in my area the only dealer that can look at it
before next Wednesday is Shakopee Dodge. (My area means within 15 miles
of my house, or the approximate distance I can drive before the car
warms up and starts dropping out.) Other dealers close by are Park
Jeep/Chrysler (Burnsville), Walser Chrysler/Jeep (Hopkins), Bloomington
Chrysler/Jeep, and Dodge of Burnsville.
maxpower
aarcuda69062
<1166740385....@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
powr...@aol.com wrote:
> I'm in Minnesota and in my area the only dealer that can look at it
> before next Wednesday is Shakopee Dodge. (My area means within 15 miles
> of my house, or the approximate distance I can drive before the car
> warms up and starts dropping out.) Other dealers close by are Park
> Jeep/Chrysler (Burnsville), Walser Chrysler/Jeep (Hopkins), Bloomington
> Chrysler/Jeep, and Dodge of Burnsville.
You might give Quinn's Automotive on Chestnut Blvd. a try.
powr...@aol.com
> aarcuda69062 <nonel...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> You might give Quinn's Automotive on Chestnut Blvd. a try.
I've already got an appointment at Shakopee Dodge for next Tuesday
morning, but I might call Quinn's anyway.
powr...@aol.com
More info.
I drove the car home from the shop last night. As soon as I started it,
the Service Engine Soon light was on. I got about 2/3 of the way home
before the first stall out. This happened while stopped at a stop light
while idling. Engine starts stumbling, tach is bouncing down, then back
to idle, then down and it dies. Put it in park, turned key off, turn
key on, cranked engine and continued on my way. About a mile later same
thing happened--died while idling at a stop sign. Put it in park,
restart car. The last time it died I was making a right turn (via a
separate turn lane where I didn't need to come to a stop) when car
simply quit. Put in neutral while rolling and restarted and continued
home.
Once I got home I checked the error code. My old friend, error code 54.
Knowing it doesn't die when cold, I use the vehicle to bring my kids to
school this morning. On the way home the Service Engine Soon light
winks out. Error code 54 is still present.
Knifeblade_03
por, I have a bad feeling you are chasing the same end of the tail,
without listening for other ways to diagnose.
--
Knifeblade_03
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powr...@aol.com
> Knifeblade_03 wrote:
> por, I have a bad feeling you are chasing the same end of the tail,
> without listening for other ways to diagnose.
As I've said, it's going to the dealership on Tuesday. I just thought
Maxpower and others would want an update as to what was going on.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166803201....@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
When you put the crank sensor in, did you make sure it was pushed in all
the way? I don't have time to read all the replies but remember you
mentioning something about the paper.
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Since your losing the tach signal it is related to the crank sensor/circuit.
> When you put the crank sensor in, did you make sure it was pushed in all
> the way? I don't have time to read all the replies but remember you
> mentioning something about the paper.
I don't know if I'm losing the tach signal, I think it's just bouncing
downward as engine RPM drops when it stumbles. I'm pretty sure I've got
the crank sensor pushed in all the way. The engine starts and runs fine
until it warms up. If the crank sensor wasn't installed properly
wouldn't it run crappy from initial start up?
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166825513.0...@42g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have seen so many transmission jobs (recently done) come into the shop
because of a problem such as yours. And most of the time the paper was still
on the sensor. Just going from park to drive would sometimes cause the
engine to shut down . And no it may not cause a problem at start up. If you
aren't sure, before taking it to the shop again maybe remove the sensor and
see if the paper is still on it.
Just a thought
Glenn
philthy
the crank and cam sensors can be watched with a lab scope and most good
scan tools have them. i even have access to a libary of square wave
patterns that is made by these sensors. the big question is are you
willing to pay for getting it checked out
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have seen so many transmission jobs (recently done) come into the shop
> because of a problem such as yours. And most of the time the paper was still
> on the sensor. Just going from park to drive would sometimes cause the
> engine to shut down . And no it may not cause a problem at start up. If you
> aren't sure, before taking it to the shop again maybe remove the sensor and
> see if the paper is still on it.
>
> Just a thought
Will do. I've sure gotten good at removing the darn thing. The problem
being if I remove it and the paper spacer is gone, then I've got to
glue a new paper spacer on there and reinstall and hope I've got it in
far enough. Even then, supposing I drive it until it warms up and it
doesn't stumble, doesn't light up the Service Engine Soon light, how
will I know I've fixed it once and for all? After all, I drove it
around fully warmed up for about 45 miles the first time I replaced the
cam sensor.
I guess I'd still want to keep my appointment at the dealership and
have them check it out just to be sure.
(And aarcuda69062 will rip me for dinking around with the crank sensor
again!)
powr...@aol.com
> philthy <dbri...@cac.net> wrote:
> please keep us posted
> the crank and cam sensors can be watched with a lab scope and most good
> scan tools have them. i even have access to a libary of square wave
> patterns that is made by these sensors. the big question is are you
> willing to pay for getting it checked out
I'll keep the group posted. I figure I might be helping someone else
later on that might encounter the same problem. Intermittent failures
are the worst.
And yes, I'm willing to pay to get it checked out. How long can it
take? Not sure, but I think the going shop rate around here for
dealerships is $130/hour. The shop I just took it to was charging
$100/hour.
Knifeblade_03
Cool, no offense intended.
aarcuda69062
<1166844558....@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
powr...@aol.com wrote:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
expecting a different result...
It should only take a competent technician with the correct
equipment 5 minutes to verify cam sensor and crank sensor
operation.
The paper spacer is there to insure that the sensor isn't
installed to close to the shutter on the flywheel, such hat the
flywheel damages it.
"Dinking around" never fixed a single vehicle.
Dipstick
> > (And aarcuda69062 will rip me for dinking around with the crank sensor
> > again!)
>The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
> expecting a different result...
And now you know why.
Ted Mittelstaedt
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1166844558....@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> > "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have seen so many transmission jobs (recently done) come into the shop
> > because of a problem such as yours. And most of the time the paper was
still
> > on the sensor. Just going from park to drive would sometimes cause the
> > engine to shut down . And no it may not cause a problem at start up. If
you
> > aren't sure, before taking it to the shop again maybe remove the sensor
and
> > see if the paper is still on it.
> >
> > Just a thought
>
> Will do. I've sure gotten good at removing the darn thing. The problem
> being if I remove it and the paper spacer is gone, then I've got to
> glue a new paper spacer on there and reinstall
What are you talking about?
All the paper spacer is for is to make sure the installing tech does not
push the sensor too close to the metal flywheel holes. It is completely
unnecessary otherwise
When I replaced my crank sensor I put the sensor in with the paper
spacer and bottomed it against the flywheel, per install instructions. I
then fired the engine up and got a slight telltale tick-tick-tick. I then
shut it down and loosened the sensor bolt and pulled the sensor out
another millimeter, tightened everything down and fired it up, no more
tick-tick-tick.
You need to understand how the sensor works. It's a Hall effect
sensor. It is not supposed to touch anything. It can sense the variation
in magnetic lines of force by the holes in the flexplate as they pass
the sensor. The closer the sensor is to the flexplate the stronger the
magnetic pulse is, and the easier for the sensor electronics to lock on
to, but there is no exact distance away that it needs to be. As close as
you can get it without touching is what you want. If the sensor is too
close then when the engine heats up the flexplate expands enough for
irregularities on the flexplate to start gouging into the end of the
sensor, which is definitely a bad thing.
If the sensor manufacturers could trust the installing technicians to
put in the sensor then pull it out 2-3 millimeters by feel, they would
simply put that into the instructions and wouldn't even bother with the
paper spacer.
> and hope I've got it in
> far enough. Even then, supposing I drive it until it warms up and it
> doesn't stumble, doesn't light up the Service Engine Soon light, how
> will I know I've fixed it once and for all? After all, I drove it
> around fully warmed up for about 45 miles the first time I replaced the
> cam sensor.
>
These sensors do not have a fixed lifetime. It is quite possible to buy
a brand new sensor and have it work a month then fail. And the
crappy thing is that when they fail, they USUALLY fail intermittently.
That is why the prudent thing is that if you get a single trouble code in
the computer of either cam or crank sensor failure, then you immediately
replace both sensors.
Ted
Ted Mittelstaedt
"philthy" <dbr...@cac.net> wrote in message
news:458C7702...@cac.net...
> please keep us posted
> the crank and cam sensors can be watched with a lab scope and most good
> scan tools have them.
Which for these sensor failures is useless unless you put the scan tool in
"recording" mode and have the customer drive the vehicle around normally
with the scan tool attached, in recording mode, until the thing fails again.
An intermittent sensor, per Murphy's law, will NEVER display a failure
indication in the shop.
Ted
maxpower
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <te...@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$85lraj$zqc$1...@news.ipinc.net...
philthy
MT-2500
It is not about what they charge but what they know more or less.
All of the test equipment in the world will not help unless they know
how to use it.
Here is what to ask for or look for when going to a shop for repair.
And also keep in mind a bad PCM will do all kinds of things like yours
to.
Good luck And let us know how it goes. MT
Tip on going to the dealer
Ask that only a factory certified gasoline engine performance
specialist work on your car.
Not all dealerships are concerned with how repairs are dispatched, and
not all dealership techs bother to take advantage of the training
offered by factory (the vast majority of which is paid training). If
the dealer is uncooperative, ask for your money back and call around
for a dealer that will accommodate you.
Or tips on finding a good repair shop.
Check around Ask around
Word of mouth.
Family friends coworkers neighbors business people and delivery
people.
Mailmen and parcel delivery people get around and notice a lot of
stuff.
Even a good parts house knows what shops are good and not good.
Chamber of commerce and better business bureau and city hall.
If you find a good referral to a repair shop go look them over and talk
to them.
Look for a clean looking busy place with nice people running it.
Ask a few questions and ask about their qualifications and training.
Not all places have trained tech/mechanics.
If they do not find a place that does.
Even all dealers do not have all trained techs/mechanics.
--
MT-2500
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powr...@aol.com
said it was bank 2 upstream O2 sensor (which I already knew, but didn't
think could cause the vehicle to stumble) and there was also a
restriction on fluid on the fuel filter which triggered a code for
"fuel efficiency flow".
They are replacing the O2 sensor and the fuel filter.
The symptoms only appear after the vehicle is warmed up, so I doubt
that is the fuel filter, therefore it must be the O2 sensor. I've had a
couple of mechanics tell me they doubt the O2 sensor could stall out
the vehicle.
Thoughts?
MT-2500
Well what was the code no?
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2jf...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Well what was the code no?
I didn't get specific code numbers. I'm more than a little leery about
"restriction on fluid on the fuel filter which triggered a code for
fuel efficiency flow". I'll ask for the codes when I pick up the
vehicle.
MT-2500
That one does sound like a strange deal.:rofl:
Usually it takes a fuel pressure gauge or a good scanner data read out
to spot fuel pressure problems.
However a 02 sensor could give you engine running fits.
Cry pcm and engine running are very sensitive to bad sensors.
I have saw a bad speed sensor kill a engine on the road.
Ask for the code no and post it back and also ask them for any TSB"s
that may pertain to your problem.
There may be several TSB's on it.
What brand of fuel and what octane are you using in it?
Have you ran a lot of injector cleaner or gas additive in it?
I would get the 02 sensor problem fixed first.
Did you ask for a trained tech or did they just let the grease monkey
test it out?
Tip on going to the dealer
Ask that only a factory certified gasoline engine performance
specialist work on your car.
Not all dealerships are concerned with how repairs are dispatched, and
not all dealership techs bother to take advantage of the training
offered by factory (the vast majority of which is paid training). If
the dealer is uncooperative, ask for your money back and call around
for a dealer that will accommodate you.
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2jf...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> That one does sound like a strange deal.:rofl:
> Usually it takes a fuel pressure gauge or a good scanner data read out
> to spot fuel pressure problems.
> However a 02 sensor could give you engine running fits.
> Cry pcm and engine running are very sensitive to bad sensors.
> I have saw a bad speed sensor kill a engine on the road.
>
> Ask for the code no and post it back and also ask them for any TSB"s
> that may pertain to your problem.
> There may be several TSB's on it.
OK, I'll ask.
> What brand of fuel and what octane are you using in it?
Citgo regular 87 octane.
> Have you ran a lot of injector cleaner or gas additive in it?
No, although the first time the symptoms happened it sounded like water
in the gas to me, so I added a pint of Isopropyl Heet to the almost
full tank. Otherwise no other additives.
> I would get the 02 sensor problem fixed first.
It's being done, or should be done by now. They were supposed to call
me when it was ready to be picked up, but haven't heard yet.
I asked them, "How will I know that it's fixed for sure?"
Service Writer: "Eric will give it a test drive, then I will give it a
test drive. We'll call you when we're satisfied it's repaired. And
there is a 12 month warranty on parts."
> Did you ask for a trained tech or did they just let the grease monkey
> test it out?
LOL. I asked for the diagnostic guru. Here's the exchange when I called
the service department:
Dodge person: "Service Department. What kind of work may we do for
you?"
Me: "Miracle work."
Dodge person: <chuckling>. "Describe your problem."
After describing the problem I asked them who was the expert in
diagnostics and engine drivability problems and they told me Eric.
Before I left to bring in the vehicle this morning I called the service
department and said, "I understand that Eric is the man for tracking
down mysterious engine behavior. Is he working today?" They said he was
working so I brought the car in.
MT-2500
Well it sounds like they are trying to get it fixed but time will
tell.
Let us know how it goes.
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2jf...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Well it sounds like they are trying to get it fixed but time will
> tell.
> Let us know how it goes.
Yep, trying would be the word.
I asked for the specific code numbers. The service manager summoned
Eric who said there aren't any specific code numbers, the computer
gives readouts like "O2 sensor bad, replace O2 sensor".
Me: "What about TSBs?"
Eric: "I didn't consult any because the diagnosis was specific."
Me: "How do we know this won't happen again?"
Eric: "The car showed the problem while it was hooked up to the
computer. Immediately after the engine misfired, the computer gave me
the bad O2 sensor diagnostic. After replacing it, I drove the car for
awhile and it didn't have the problem."
On the way home, about 6 miles away from the dealership, or about the
time it got fully warmed up it started with the jerking. At freeway
speeds it's like the engine stops running for a split second. There is
quite an abrupt jerk. It feels like the brakes are being applied very
quickly and then let go of very quickly. At slower speeds it feels like
stumbling or misfiring. It's going back in on Thursday. They're giving
me a loaner car. I can't wait to discuss the money spent on installing
the wrong parts on the car and how to resolve that issue. Yep, that
will be a blast....
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167178144.5...@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
Ask to have the co pilot installed, ask to give you the recording that you
will make on a memory stick and send them via email to me.
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> maxpower wrote:
> Ask to have the co pilot installed, ask to give you the recording that you
> will make on a memory stick and send them via email to me.
>
> Glenn
Really? That's quite a generous offer. Thanks, Glenn. I will ask them
about it.
One more thing--they said that they had a cam sensor code but from 20
starts ago, and said they figured it was from a while ago, when I was
working on the car and not a fresh one.
alan&
i had a 1993 that did the same things some what and it turned out to be
the egr . the sensor was bad change that and never had no more trouble.
i all so thought it was a crankshaft sensor or cam shaft sensor. what i
am saying is that a bad sensor can send a bad signal to the computor. i
have had computor do the same thing. i hope that what i have told you
will help you fine your problem on your own .if not use a scaner
--
alan &marge pepper
------------------------------------------------------------------------
alan &marge pepper's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?userid=489288
powr...@aol.com
vehicle and drive it. Am I correct to presume this will give more
detailed readouts of engine status and errors? (I've searched for
Co-Pilot auto diagnostic tool on Google but found little info. Anybody
have a link?)
I know you professional mechanics want to get the codes before making
an assessment but meanwhile, can't we do some speculating based on the
behavior of the problem at idle, low speed, and highway speeds?
At idle the vehicle will drop down in rpm getting dangerously close to
dying, then pick back up and find proper idling speed again. Sometimes
it will die while idling but usually it happens with the vehicle moving
at very low speeds, i.e. under 10 mph. The sensation is that the engine
is stumbling.
At speeds of about 30 mph, the car will feel as if it's stuttering or
tugging. I've never had it die while traveling at this speed.
At highway speeds there is a very abrupt, sudden jerk. I would describe
it as if the engine shutdown for a split second and then resumed
running. There is no backfiring. If you were a passenger in the car you
would think the brakes had been tapped forcefully and then quickly
released. If you were sleeping, you would be awakened, it's that abrupt
of a jerk.
So, does this information help anyone to make an intelligent guess?
(I've got this gut feeling they're going to find the crankshaft sensor
needs replacing. Would an intermittent crank sensor produce the
symptoms described above?)
MT-2500
It sounds like that has already been done.:grinno: :lol2: :lol:
If you want to guese at it or go speculating better put your money in
the loto or a good crap/bingo game.
B4ecause it would be cheaper to buy a new car than to start throwing
parts at it.
Remember proper testing is the only way to get it fixed.:lol2:
:grinyes: :grinno:
--
MT-2500
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MT-2500's Profile: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?userid=382930
powr...@aol.com
yesterday if they will be using the Co-Pilot diagnostic tool and he
said yes. "Just be sure to bring the vehicle in first thing in the
morning."
I dropped it off at 7:50 am. It jerked four times on the way there,
didn't die though. No other cars were in the staging area for service.
I asked the service writer if they will be using Co-Pilot. (it was a
different person than the day before).
"I don't know what he'll be using."
"Well, yesterday Gerald told me Eric would be using Co-Pilot. I brought
along a USB memory stick and I'd like to have any error codes they find
downloaded onto this stick. They can do that, right?"
She looks at me like I just asked her to swallow a burning sword.
"Well, I'll write your request right on the work ticket." (she did and
she took my memory stick.)
I don't hear anything all morning long so I call at 12:10 pm. "They
haven't started to look at it yet."
I don't hear anything, now it's 3:45. I call them and they tell me that
they've "been working on it in between other jobs" and that they've
"gotten it to exhibit the problem only once. They have it idling right
now and will be taking it out for another test drive before 4:00 pm."
They are keeping the vehicle overnight.
MT-2500
Well I do not know if they are jerking you a round or not but remember
good work is like good wine it takes time. :iceslolan
But here is the question to put to them.
Tip on going to the dealer
Ask that only a factory certified gasoline engine performance
specialist work on your car.
Not all dealerships are concerned with how repairs are dispatched, and
not all dealership techs bother to take advantage of the training
offered by factory (the vast majority of which is paid training). If
the dealer is uncooperative, ask for your money back and call around
for a dealer that will accommodate you.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167345763.7...@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
picture of what it did.. they should have captured your problem, if they
cant give you the reading they can upload the data to Chrysler and have one
of the guys up there determine what the problem may be. Ask to speak to the
tech that is working on it
Glenn
philthy
problem is the tech won't take the time to do so he probablydrove it a a 1/2
mile and called it good typical dealer bullshit
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> if they used the co-pilot and it jerked or hesitated and they snapped a
> picture of what it did.. they should have captured your problem, if they
> cant give you the reading they can upload the data to Chrysler and have one
> of the guys up there determine what the problem may be. Ask to speak to the
> tech that is working on it
Thanks Glenn. I'm on it like bark on a tree trunk.
powr...@aol.com
> philthy <dbri...@cac.net> wrote:
> like that will do any good! since the customer can reproduce the issue the
> problem is the tech won't take the time to do so he probablydrove it a a 1/2
> mile and called it good
I'm certain that the first time it was in there, they didn't drive it
until it was fully warmed up. I've mentioned it so many times now that
they better drive it until it is warmed up. It's 8 miles to the
dealership from my garage. About the 6 mile mark it starts with the
problem. It is reproducible. Every single time. If they say they can't
get it to do it, I'll correct them in no uncertain terms.
maxpower
powr...@aol.com
Finally heard from the dealership. They could only get the vehicle to
exhibit the fault one time and apparently they didn't capture any
codes. They put in a "dummy crank position sensor", one that always
gives a signal and couldn't get the car to exhibit the fault. They said
they let it idle for over an hour and then drove it for 15 minutes at
various speeds, highway and city driving. Couldn't get the car to
stumble or jerk.
They are replacing the original Chrysler crankshaft sensor and
instructed me to return the new one to Autozone for a refund.
maxpower
powr...@aol.com
> maxpower wrote:
> > powrwrap:
> > They are replacing the original Chrysler crankshaft sensor and
> > instructed me to return the new one to Autozone for a refund.
> >
> ok
Glenn, is there such a thing as a "dummy" crank sensor? Wouldn't it, in
effect, be a fully functioning, i.e. new crank sensor?
MT-2500
Well time will tell the story.
Good Luck.
But what is a dummy crankshaft sensor?:grinyes: :lol:
I have heard of bad ones and ones that are no good and some work part
time and some quit when they get hot but never heard of a dummy one.
MT
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167425009.2...@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
one. I gave you all the help and advise I could give you. Since they wont
connect the tool I suggested you are basically on your own. Maybe what you
have is a bad crank sensor....me personally, I would stick with Mopar parts.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Happy New year.
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> maxpower wrote:
> I have no idea what a dummy crank sensor is unless they mean a cheap bad
> one. I gave you all the help and advise I could give you. Since they wont
> connect the tool I suggested you are basically on your own. Maybe what you
> have is a bad crank sensor....me personally, I would stick with Mopar parts.
> Good luck and keep us posted.
> Happy New year.
They said the dummy crank sensor is a regular crank sensor with an
extra wire that hooks into the computer and tells it that crank sensor
is always good. In other words, they eliminated the possibility of the
crank sensor being bad and the problem went away. They wanted $150 to
put in a new crank sensor. I declined, saying I would do it myself.
Per their original diagnosis, I had spent $470 to have an O2 sensor and
a fuel filter installed. As you know, this didn't fix the problem. They
told me that any further repairs would go against this amount. When I
went to pick up the car they said that those repairs were necessary
since they were generating fault codes. However, there would be no
charge for the diagnostic work to determine the crank sensor was
faulty. Of course I objected. According to my point of view I brought
my car in with a stumbling, die-out problem, spent $470 on unneeded
parts and left with a car with stumbling die-out problem. I got a
little vocal with the guy but they insisted that the O2 sensor and fuel
filter was a necessary repair and that they had spent about 2 hours
working on finding the crank sensor problem. (Yeah, and more than an
hour was with the dummy crank sensor hooked up to the computer and the
car idling.)
They told me they installed the original Chrysler brand crank sensor
and put the Wells brand from Autozone in the box. Wrong. They put the
Wells brand back in the car and left the Chrysler one in the box. They
told me to buy a Bosch brand crank sensor if I didn't want a Mopar one.
Mopar = $79.00, Bosch = $35.00. I'm wondering if Bosch makes the
Chrysler part.
The Service Engine light is on and the vehicle is generating a code 11
fault. Deja vu, people.
MT-2500
Well you at least found out what a dummy crank sensor is.
I have never heard of one before.
It sounds like a good old soap opera.
I take it they were not a 5 star dealer.
For info the only true way to test a crank sensor is with a lab scope.
A code 11 does not tell you what sensor for sure is bad or if it is
just bad wiring.
If it is setting a code run it by auto zone or a parts place and get
the 4 digit OBD11 code.
They are right on on the wells sensors being crap.
Bosh or Borg warner sensors may be one step better than wells but.
Get a dealer oem sensor and be done with it.
Let us know how it goes.
MT-2500
I missed the good part there.
If they put the new cry sensor in the wells box and put the wells
sensor on.
Just put the cry sensor and drop the wells sensor in the trash can
sensor.
That is unless they put the dummy sensor in the box.:grinyes: :lol:
:grinno:
Good luck and let us know how it goes
Ted Mittelstaedt
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167431763....@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Per their original diagnosis, I had spent $470 to have an O2 sensor and
> a fuel filter installed. As you know, this didn't fix the problem. They
> told me that any further repairs would go against this amount. When I
> went to pick up the car they said that those repairs were necessary
> since they were generating fault codes. However, there would be no
> charge for the diagnostic work to determine the crank sensor was
> faulty. Of course I objected. According to my point of view I brought
> my car in with a stumbling, die-out problem, spent $470 on unneeded
> parts and left with a car with stumbling die-out problem. I got a
> little vocal with the guy but they insisted that the O2 sensor and fuel
> filter was a necessary repair and that they had spent about 2 hours
> working on finding the crank sensor problem. (Yeah, and more than an
> hour was with the dummy crank sensor hooked up to the computer and the
> car idling.)
>
This is not uncommon. I recall one time I had a Celebrity with a bad MAF
and it was diagnosed as a bad distributor. A replacement MAF for that
particular engine (a special one) was $150 from aftermarket rebuild and
$300 from the dealer and I suspected it was the MAF and even told them that,
but I wasn't going to risk the money on a guess, that is why I took it in
rather
than fixing it myself. When the repair guy claimed it was the distributor
I thought it was bunk but I also thought that if they were wrong they would
stand behind their work, and not charge me for the labor or parts. Stupid
me, of course I got charged for a useless distributor that did nothing as
well
as the labor. That was the second to the last time I ever brought any
vehicle
I owned into a repair shop for a general repair. Today I do my own
diagnosis
even if it means buying a $1000 tool to do it.
It is par for the course for the shop to do what they can to minimize
economic cost on a repair that is a repeat comeback. And intermittent
problems have a much higher chance of repeat comebacks. The only protection
for this is when you know you have an intermittent problem in a vehicle
to be extremely careful in selection of repair shops. Personally visit the
shop in advance and talk to the people and get a feel for the shop in how
they are going to treat you. And, when you do drop the vehicle off, don't
give them the keys until they have written the work order up to your
satisfaction, and force them to write on the work order that the car is a
known
intermittent, and that they must call you if any parts are to be replaced
that
are not on the work order. Service writers have gotten smart and will
usually write as
little as possible on a work order, that way it gives them more leverage to
weasel out of giving you credits or warranty coverage if things go bad
later on. Another trick is to never talk to multiple people at the shop
about
your car, always insist on talking to the same person and write down
everything
they tell you.
Ted
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167431763....@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Keep im mind one thing here, when you bring your vehicle into any shop and
there are multiple problems or even fault code...they have to be dealt
with!!! They may not have anything to do with your stalling problem but they
still need to be addressed especially a battery/charging problem. The other
thing is by you poking around unhooking things you may have set fault codes
that don't pertain to the problem you are having.(which could cause problems
for the tech and unnecessary cost) All this has to be cleared to see what
new things pop up. It seems so easy for them (If they knew how) to connect
the co-pilot and get a picture.
Glenn
philthy
have been called 3 times and asked to come bac in the last year
i now work on a salary, no Saturdays, or late nites and no premodonna's
philthy
first check and record and erase any codes then disconnect battery for a couple
of minutes touching cable to other cable to discharge capacitors and then
redrive vehicle untill all readyness monitors are met then let vehicle sit a 10
minutes and then go for the test drive and real fault codes will reset 95
percent of the times the 0ther5% you give car bac and advise customer not to
touch a thing when lite comes on then bring it bac
customers do not have time to bring in cars for shit that isn't there and not
really occuring
powr...@aol.com
I bought a Borg-Warner crank sensor, $45 at Bumper-to-Bumper. I brought
back the Wells crank sensor to AutoZone for a refund. I DID notice that
the Wells sensor only came with a 90 day warranty, whereas the
Borg-Warner has a lifetime warranty. (It also has a NASCAR emblem on
it, so it must be good <g>)
I installed it last night, let the vehicle get fully warm and then
drove it for about 5 miles at speeds of 40 mph or less. No stumbling,
no stalling.
Took it out today and drove it 14 miles at speeds of 40 mph or less.
This time I set the cruise control at 39 mph and carefully watched the
tachometer. No incidences until I was slowing down (cruise disengaged,
obviously) for a stop light at about the 12 mile mark. At almost the
point of stopping, perhaps at 5-7 mph, there was a slight dip in engine
rpm and then back to normal rpm. That's was all, but it gave me pause.
I'm going to drive it on the highway next.
bllsht
it.
MT-2500
Glad to hear it is on he road to recovery.
But the NASCAR emblem does not carry much weight.:grinyes: :lol:
The BWD Borg-Warner is just one step better than a Wells.
Drop back to your first post and read my reply back to it.
THEN READ MY SIGNATURE .
Good luck
MT
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2jn...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Glad to hear it is on he road to recovery.
> But the NASCAR emblem does not carry much weight.:grinyes: :lol:
> The BWD Borg-Warner is just one step better than a Wells.
> Drop back to your first post and read my reply back to it.
> THEN READ MY SIGNATURE .
> Good luck
No kidding. Lesson learned. Don't buy Wells brand electrical products.
Put about 10 more miles at highway speeds. No problems. Here's the acid
test--the wife is taking the car downtown tonight, about 25 miles one
way....
powr...@aol.com
Since replacing the crank sensor on Friday night the car has been
driven approximately 90 miles, both highway and city speeds. I figure
it was fixed but today on the way to work my wife calls and says the
car is jerking and bucking.
I'm taking all the good advice from everybody on this thread and here's
what I'm going to do.
I'm calling the 5 star Chrysler/Jeep dealer in my area and ask them if
they have Co-Pilot. I'll explain what has been done to the vehicle so
far. If they have it, I will insist that they use Co-Pilot to diagnose
my vehicle. I will volunteer to drive the car with Co-Pilot installed.
Any other suggestions on how to work with the dealership?
powr...@aol.com
for an appointment with the factory certified gasoline engine
performance specialist. They said he could look at the vehicle
tomorrow. I gave the service writer the Reader's Digest version of my
experiences with the vehicle, told him that I'm having knowledgable
people tell me I need Co-Pilot and asked if they had Co-Pilot at their
dealership and if they would use it to diagnose my vehicle's problem.
"We need to start from scratch with our own diagnostics. If Co-Pilot is
called for, we will use it."
Arrgghhh!
MT-2500
Oh MY.
Sorry to hear it is acting up again.
I take it you are trying another dealer than the first one.
The Co-Pilot is nice tool and may help catch the problem.
But I would suggest.
You make sure they are putting a good trained tech on it to.
Tip on going to the dealer
Ask that only a factory certified gasoline engine performance
specialist work on your car.
Not all dealerships are concerned with how repairs are dispatched, and
not all dealership techs bother to take advantage of the training
offered by factory (the vast majority of which is paid training). If
the dealer is uncooperative, ask for your money back and call around
for a dealer that will accommodate you.
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2js...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Oh MY.
> Sorry to hear it is acting up again.
> I take it you are trying another dealer than the first one.
Yes, I am.
> The Co-Pilot is nice tool and may help catch the problem.
> But I would suggest.
> You make sure they are putting a good trained tech on it to.
> Tip on going to the dealer
> Ask that only a factory certified gasoline engine performance
> specialist work on your car.
I used that exact phrase-- 'factory certified gasoline engine
performance specialist' and asked when he could see my car. They said
tomorrow. So tomorrow it is.
I'm taking odds that they'll tell me it's a crankshaft position sensor
and that I'm going to have the Chrysler tech install a Mopar branded
one. Anybody want to bet against it? LOL.
MT-2500
If they are going to put a good trained tech on it.
It is standard procedure for them to start with there own diagnostic.
I would let them have at it.
The co pilot is used for finding very intermittent problems that only
show up at times.
It is very a useful tool for the customer to have when it acts up.
It can record the PCM data frames when the problem happens.
But as they said it is sometimes the last resort or as they said they
will use it if needed.
That sounds like a good deal to me.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
MT-2500
powr...@aol.com Wrote:
> [color=blue]
> > MT-2500 <MT-2500.2js...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
>
>
> I used that exact phrase-- 'factory certified gasoline engine
> performance specialist' and asked when he could see my car. They said
> tomorrow. So tomorrow it is.
>
> I'm taking odds that they'll tell me it's a crankshaft position sensor
> and that I'm going to have the Chrysler tech install a Mopar branded
> one. Anybody want to bet against it? LOL.
Here is a little info on co-pilot and cam and crank sensor testing.
http://members.troublecodes.net/crunch/cam%20and%20crank.pdf
http://members.troublecodes.net/crunch/copilot.pdf
A true test for a bad crank sensor can only be done with a lab scope.
Which most good techs will do before replacing the sensor.
A lot of problems can even be in the wiring or plug in on the sensor
to.
Did you ever get the 4 digit code no it sets?
If so post it back and I can give you a break down on it.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167753565....@k21g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You are starting all over again with another dealer therefore they will
start from scratch.
Glenn
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2js...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Did you ever get the 4 digit code no it sets?
> If so post it back and I can give you a break down on it.
No, the dealership I went to last week said their equipment doesn't
generate code numbers, only things like "defective O2 sensor".
I'm bringing my memory stick with me tomorrow as Glenn has previously
suggested.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167767285....@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
attempt to fix your vehicle, A good technician wont need to use the co-pilot
if he/she knows what he is doing and knows how to use the DRB scan tool. You
are having a problem with a crank circuit. It is cut and dry!!!
As far as fault codes, that year doesn't give a P code out, and as I said
before. You cannot rely on cycling the key to retrieve fault codes .
Glenn
Steve B.
My only suggestion would be to actually let them fix the problem they
diagnose. If they diagnose a bad sensor and then you go get some
aftermarket part and install it they have no ownership of the problem
if that doesn't fix it. You could be getting cruddy sensors, It could
be some silly little something you aren't noticing when you install
the sensor or it could be a gazillion other unrelated problems but
unless they install the new sensor they will never diagnose past that
point.
Steve B.
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A good technician wont need to use the co-pilot
> if he/she knows what he is doing and knows how to use the DRB scan tool.
OK, I gathered as much from the links posted by MT-2500. I'm not going
to go in there and demand that they work on it a certain way. However,
if they can't get the car to exhibit the problem, is it reasonable for
me to suggest that they hook up the Co-Pilot and let me take the
vehicle and drive it around (to save on diagnostic charges?)
powr...@aol.com
> Steve B. <n...@none.com> wrote:
> My only suggestion would be to actually let them fix the problem they
> diagnose. If they diagnose a bad sensor and then you go get some
> aftermarket part and install it they have no ownership of the problem
> if that doesn't fix it.
Believe me, I'm so sick of this problem, I'm about ready to have them
jack up the radiator cap and slide another vehicle underneath it!
> You could be getting cruddy sensors, It could
> be some silly little something you aren't noticing when you install
> the sensor or it could be a gazillion other unrelated problems but
> unless they install the new sensor they will never diagnose past that
> point.
Installation is very simple, I don't think I could screw it up. :-)
Remove the air filter box for easier access and the sensor has only one
10 mm bolt and a 2-pronged wiring connector. If they say it's the
crankshaft sensor, they're replacing it with a gen-you-whine Mopar
part. Heck, if they say the windshield washer fluid is low, I'm letting
them handle the install!
MT-2500
Yes that is what is is for.
It is made to hook up to the car and let the customer drive it un till
the problem happens and the the customer can push the button and get a
recording of data at the time it happens.
Then the dealer can play back the recording and hope fully or usually
it shows the problem.
The data from it may not be quite as good as the dealer DRB11 scan tool
but it gets the data when the problem happens.
It sounds like they are going to work with you on the problem and we
hope they get it.
Good luck
philthy
powr...@aol.com
I took the vehicle to another dealership yesterday. On the way into the
dealership the car stumbled several times, dying three times, all three
times at speeds below 10 mph and while slowing down for a stop.
At the service desk I asked for the factory certified gasoline engine
performance specialist and the service writer said they have three
people that fit that description, although they call them
"drivability diagnostic specialists" and that one of them would get
my job. I also left them with my (now) full page description of
symptoms, attempted fixes, and my experience with the other dealership.
The car wouldn't exhibit the problem while hooked up to their scan
tool, so they took it out for a test drive. They put on about 20 miles
and they did get the vehicle to stumble and even to die out on them one
time. However, hooking up the scan tool showed there were no stored
codes. They decided to keep the car overnight and attempt to test drive
it again from a cold start to warm-up condition, the technique that
always seems to work for me. They did that this morning, and got the
car to die again after it was warmed up--after about 8 miles of
driving. There were no stored codes.
The service writer called me and told me they were going to hook up the
Co-Pilot and let me take the vehicle for the weekend. He said they
needed to get 2 instances of the vehicle showing the problem.
Regardless of how many times I captured a problem with Co-Pilot or how
quickly I got the failure he explained they were going to charge me for
an hour of shop time, or $107.00 I countered with the idea of leaving
it overnight, hooking up the Co-Pilot in the morning and having the
drivability specialist take it out for the usual 10-15 minutes that it
takes to have the car exhibit the problem, then if they got codes, the
car could be repaired and I would have my car back in time for the
weekend. I preferred this over driving the thing for three days in lame
mode. He agreed to my plan.
Question: The first place I took it to (not a Dodge dealer, but an
independent shop) said he had the car fail while hooked up to his scan
tool and it didn't get any error codes. Could this happen with the
Co-Pilot? Could the car fail and Co-Pilot wouldn't record anything?
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167949151.1...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
the scan tool set to pick up a secondary indicator while driving.... If the
PCM is crapping out this may be the reason why no codes have been set. Have
you ever tried tapping on the PCM with a small hammer when the vehicle is
hot to see if it stumbles? This is also a common problem when the PCM is
going out. Another symptom of that would be the key counter will always set
back to 0 starts when you go to check for fault codes with the DRB
This probably makes no sense to you but the person working on it should know
this
Glenn
MT-2500
Actually in the TSB on the co-pilot I posted it says that the dealer
OBD11 scanner is better for testing and should show a little more than
the co-pilot.
The co-pilot is a tool for the customer to use at the time a hard to
find problem happens.
If it is doing it every morning I would let the dealer try to find it
with the cry DRB11 scanner.
But sometimes there is things that just not show up on a scanner.
Not setting a code is not good and makes it hard to find.
But it sounds like you have got it in good hands with that dealer.
Good luck and keep us posted.
powr...@aol.com
> "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If the problem happens to fast to set a fault code they will have to have
> the scan tool set to pick up a secondary indicator while driving....
> If the
> PCM is crapping out this may be the reason why no codes have been set. Have
> you ever tried tapping on the PCM with a small hammer when the vehicle is
> hot to see if it stumbles? This is also a common problem when the PCM is
> going out.
No, I haven't. You mean something like a tack hammer? Or a small rubber
mallet?
> Another symptom of that would be the key counter will always set
> back to 0 starts when you go to check for fault codes with the DRB
> This probably makes no sense to you but the person working on it should know
> this
The guy at the first Dodge dealer said that his tool was "showing a
code 54 from 20 starts ago. It's probably from when you replaced the
cam sensor." So that is a clue. Then again the guy at the first Dodge
dealership also said that their scan tool doesn't return numerical
codes, so it could be B.S. on his part.
powr...@aol.com
> MT-2500 <MT-2500.2jw...@no-mx.nodomain.com> wrote:
> Actually in the TSB on the co-pilot I posted it says that the dealer
> OBD11 scanner is better for testing and should show a little more than
> the co-pilot.
Yep. About 10 seconds after I posted my question I recalled that from
the articles you posted. Thanks for not ripping me...
> The co-pilot is a tool for the customer to use at the time a hard to
> find problem happens.
> If it is doing it every morning I would let the dealer try to find it
> with the cry DRB11 scanner.
> But sometimes there is things that just not show up on a scanner.
> Not setting a code is not good and makes it hard to find.
> But it sounds like you have got it in good hands with that dealer.
> Good luck and keep us posted.
I've got a lot more confidence in this dealer. The no code being
generated is quite worrisome though.
maxpower
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167952176.1...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> > "maxpower" <damnnickn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > If the problem happens to fast to set a fault code they will have to
have
> > the scan tool set to pick up a secondary indicator while driving....
>
> > If the
> > PCM is crapping out this may be the reason why no codes have been set.
Have
> > you ever tried tapping on the PCM with a small hammer when the vehicle
is
> > hot to see if it stumbles? This is also a common problem when the PCM is
> > going out.
>
> No, I haven't. You mean something like a tack hammer? Or a small rubber
> mallet?
yes
>
> > Another symptom of that would be the key counter will always set
> > back to 0 starts when you go to check for fault codes with the DRB
> > This probably makes no sense to you but the person working on it should
know
> > this
>
> The guy at the first Dodge dealer said that his tool was "showing a
> code 54 from 20 starts ago. It's probably from when you replaced the
> cam sensor." So that is a clue. Then again the guy at the first Dodge
> dealership also said that their scan tool doesn't return numerical
> codes, so it could be B.S. on his part.
You are getting things mixed up again, on that year vehicle you can not get
a P code from the engine controller. It spells out the code such as "Small
evaporative leak" where as on a newer vehicle that code would be something
like P0441. thats why i keep telling you that by cycling the key and
getting a 2 digit code such as 54 really means nothing and according to
Chrysler you cannot rely on that procedure on this year
Therefore it was not BS. and this is what happens when you talk to so many
different people
Glenn
>
MT-2500
Reread Glenn's post 97
Give the dealer a little time to sort it out.
Good work is just like good wine it takes time.
Ted Mittelstaedt
<powr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1167949151.1...@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
No. The co-pilot always records when the button is pressed. The
question you have to ask is, "could the car fail and the co-pilot not
record anything significant?"
The answer is yes, it could. However, that is very unlikely. Something
is making the engine stumble. For many reasons you can almost completely
rule out some failed mechanical thing. The problem is almost certainly in
the electronics of the vehicle, and that is what the co-pilot is designed to
diagnose.
No matter what happens, you will learn something with the co-pilot. Even
if all engine readings are normal up to the second that the engine dies,
that
also tells the experienced diagnostician quite a lot. Sometimes the absence
of
something happening is just as significant as the presence of something
happening. A mechanic that understands how to diagnose complex interrelated
systems will understand all of this and be able to use it to fix the car.
Unfortunately
it sounds like you haven't had anyone working on the car yet that did
understand
this.
Ted