Tube equipment unreliable?
OOOO
I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break? I
am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
amp's for me" it fried!?)
Any thoughts?
--
Isaac [ f y s t @ m a g m a . c a ]
Fight Your Speeding Tickets page (FYST):
http://www.magma.ca/~fyst
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
>
> I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
> retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
> about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break?
Yes. For low level devices, like preamps, DACs, tuners, etc, they are
just fine, but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
inherently less reliable. In addition, they change their sound
throughout their life, and they have high cost maintainance
> I'm considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
> back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
> 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
> amp's for me" it fried!?)
>
When it comes to amps, tubes are for boobs.
Zip
> Isaac [ f y s t @ m a g m a . c a ]
> Fight Your Speeding Tickets page (FYST):
> http://www.magma.ca/~fyst
--
Sunshine Stereo, Inc http://www.sunshinestereo.com
Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
9535 Biscayne Blvd Miami Shores FL 33138
PASS Labs NOVA Audio EAD Miranda CODA Audible Illusions CEC
Camelot Technology Audio Logic Parasound Kinergetics Cabasse
Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT Jadis
Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire Mordaunt Short ESP
Rega Vans Evers Cleanlines Monster Cable ENTECH Arcane Audio
Sunshine Stereo encourages all audiophiles to support their local
dealers. If you do not have a local dealer, we will gladly assist
you with all your audio and video needs! *** ENJOY THE MUSIC! ***
David Mester
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc) <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote in
article <35C757...@sunshinestereo.com>...
> OOOO wrote:
> >
>
> When it comes to amps, tubes are for boobs.
> Zip
>
>
You're a boob.
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
Sir:
Sorry if I affected you sensibilities. But toobs suck for amplifiers.
Read the following again:
For low level devices, like preamps, DACs, tuners, etc, tubes are
just fine, but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
inherently less reliable. In addition, they change their sound
throughout their life, and they have high cost maintainance
There is only truth their. Tubes are for boobs like you
]Zip
Jeff Bernhard
:
: I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
: retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
: am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
: back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
: 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
: amp's for me" it fried!?)
: Any thoughts?
:
: --
: Isaac [ f y s t @ m a g m a . c a ]
I'm not familiar with the Anthem products. Tube products vary in quality,
like every other kind of product. Some tube amplifiers are more sensitive
to some things, like not having a proper load, or perhaps driving a short.
I don't know if your choice of cables or loudspeakers presented an unusual
load for the amp or not. When you say, "the amp fried itself", what exactly
do you mean? Because tube amps often clip more softly, the warning signs
of overdriving them will be less obvious, and perhaps the amp was seriously
overdriven.
Good tube products, properly used, work reliably and well, in my experience.
I don't think anyone would claim that they are as reliable as the best solid
state products: Tubes age, employ much higher voltages, and failures do
occur. But said failures seem relatively rare with quality product properly
used. Your experience begs for more information, to understand what went
wrong and why. Was it the product design, or the way it was used that led
to the unhappy results you report?
--
Jeffrey Bernhard at Concurrent Computer Corp. (expressing his opinion only!)
Jeff.B...@mail.ccur.com Voice: (954) 973-5496 Fax: (954) 977-5580
BJRICHMAN
>Good tube products, properly used, work reliably and well, in my experience.
>I don't think anyone would claim that they are as reliable as the best solid
>state products: Tubes age, employ much higher voltages, and failures do
>occur. But said failures seem relatively rare with quality product properly
>used.
I essentially agree. While tube bias has to be periodically checked
(relatively easy with at least those brands that provide individual bias trim
pots with LED's) and tubes replaced on occasion after literally many 1000's
hrs.' useage, proper maintenance (e.g. ventilation, appropriate bias, careful
matching with speakers, etc.) can lead to, IMO, extraordinary sound with very
few worries about electrical problems.
It perhaps goes without saying that the long-term marketplace success of
companies like Conrad-Johnson, Audio Research, Sonic Frontiers, Cary, and VTL -
to name just a few, suggests a fairly good degree of audiophile acceptance.
Zip is, of course, entitled to his opinion. However, for the sake of balance,
I wonder if Kevin Deal, another dealer active on RAO (with an obviously
different bias - pun intended) would care to respond? :):)
As an aside - there was a recent question about electrostatic speakers from a
newbie.
While I'm obviously biased, having owned Quads in the past and now MartinLogans
(CLS II's) - anybody auditioning electrostatics or considering their purchase
should definitely audition them with tubes. Many have concluded that tubes and
electrostatic panels are a fantastic match.
Bruce J. Richman
NigelBD
>inherently less reliable.
That's a gross distortion.
Transistors were originally known as the worlds fastest fuse becausae it took
them a long time to reach the reliability of tubes.
To this day television and radio transmission stations depend on tubes to
provide the very high voltages that they require to deliver the kilowatts of
power to antennas because there simply aren't transistors capable of delivering
the current/voltages.
Before the transistor tubes were flying in airplanes and spaceships.
Having said all this, tubes do have a certain lifespan measured in hundreds of
hours. It varies not only on the tube but on the manufacturer and the specific
design.
Remember that the amp you got was probably borrowed by others, and therefore
has been jostled around before.
A good new tube amp shouldn't just fry and start spitting sparks. The tubes
might wear out, but you shouldn't expect any less reliability from the rest of
your purchase.
Regards,
Nigel
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To e-mail a reply, send it to:
erik_DIESPA...@hotmail.com
Removing the appropriate text.
--------------------------------------------------------------
NigelBD
FYI, they're the low end line of Sonic Frontiers, www.sonicfrontiers.com
>Good tube products, properly used, work reliably and well, in my experience.
Well said.
Regards
Powell
>Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc) wrote
>In addition, ......and they have high cost maintainance
>
You have that part right anyway.
greg singh
Stereo, Inc)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
> NigelBD wrote:
> >
> > >but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
> > >inherently less reliable.
> >
> > That's a gross distortion.
>
> Sorry - I missed that one. You are right. Tubes are full of gross
> distortion.
>
> > Transistors were originally known as the worlds fastest fuse becausae
it took
> > them a long time to reach the reliability of tubes.
>
> But in today's world, the transistor amplifiers are dramatically more
> reliable. This is beyond argument, and to deny this is sheer
> unadulterated idiocy.
>
> > To this day television and radio transmission stations depend on tubes to
> > provide the very high voltages that they require to deliver the kilowatts of
> > power to antennas because there simply aren't transistors capable of
delivering
> > the current/voltages.
>
> Not all do, and this has little to do with audio amplification.
>
> > Before the transistor tubes were flying in airplanes and spaceships.
>
> Hey, before cars, we rode horses. Big fucking deal. Before jets we flew
> props. Big deal.
>
> > Having said all this, tubes do have a certain lifespan measured in
hundreds of
> > hours.
>
> YUP!
>
> > It varies not only on the tube but on the manufacturer and the specific
> > design.
>
> YUP! and the sound varies from day to day and hour to hour and you never
> know when they are gonna make like Mt Vesuvius.
>
> > Remember that the amp you got was probably borrowed by others, and therefore
> > has been jostled around before.
>
> I have solid state amps that take a lickin and keep on tickin for
> years. Look at your CAR STEREOs bright light!
>
> > A good new tube amp shouldn't just fry and start spitting sparks. The
tubes
> > might wear out, but you shouldn't expect any less reliability from the
rest of
> > your purchase.
>
> Huh? TUBES ARE FOR BOOBS.
> Zip
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nigel
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To e-mail a reply, send it to:
> > erik_DIESPA...@hotmail.com
> > Removing the appropriate text.
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Sunshine Stereo, Inc http://www.sunshinestereo.com
> Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
> 9535 Biscayne Blvd Miami Shores FL 33138
> PASS Labs NOVA Audio EAD Miranda CODA Audible Illusions CEC
> Camelot Technology Audio Logic Parasound Kinergetics Cabasse
> Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT Jadis
> Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire Mordaunt Short ESP
> Rega Vans Evers Cleanlines Monster Cable ENTECH Arcane Audio
> Sunshine Stereo encourages all audiophiles to support their local
> dealers. If you do not have a local dealer, we will gladly assist
> you with all your audio and video needs! *** ENJOY THE MUSIC! ***
Hey Zip--know anybody that can get me a good deal on a Jadis amp?
Gruvmyster
Unless you have a soldering iron and a VOM. Most parts (aside
from transformers) are pretty cheap. You can get very good tubes
from Svetlana and others that are very reasonably priced. Filter
caps (possibly the most common part to fail) are cheaper than
they were 10 years ago, unless you have high-volt multi-section
cans.
Doug
--
"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment.
The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
-Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives
for 3-M
"Post-It" note pads.
Arny Krüger
OOOO wrote in message <6q7guc$f...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>...
>
>I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from
my audio
>retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried
itself after
>about 5 minutes of playing time.
This would be very unusual.
>Are tube amps very easy to break?
Typically, but not always, more so than solid state.
>I
>am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience
I will sit
>back and seriously think about it again. But I have to
admit the first
>5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was
thinking "this
>amp's for me" it fried!?)
>
>Any thoughts?
If you are thinking about buying a tubed amp, don't think
that you are going to get "burnt" this way all the time.
Tubed amps can run for years without breaking down.
Gruvmyster
> NigelBD wrote:
>
> > Transistors were originally known as the worlds fastest fuse becausae it took
> > them a long time to reach the reliability of tubes.
>
> But in today's world, the transistor amplifiers are dramatically more
> reliable. This is beyond argument, and to deny this is sheer
> unadulterated idiocy.
Please define "dramatically." I have been running one for several years without
problems. I personally think if you are going to run tubes, you should undertsand a
few things like "bias", "schematic", etc. because if something does go wrong they are
generally easy enough for people with limited electronics knowledge to fix. They also
usually have well defined test points which are not hard for the user to follow. Can
you say that about most of the amps you sell?
> > Having said all this, tubes do have a certain lifespan measured in hundreds of
> > hours.
>
> YUP!
Well, usually thousands (at least the "good stuff")...
> > It varies not only on the tube but on the manufacturer and the specific
> > design.
>
> YUP! and the sound varies from day to day and hour to hour
Really? I'd call that an unstable amp. Did it have a weak power supply or something?
> and you never know when they are gonna make like Mt Vesuvius.
The same could be said about your car's engine if you don't watch the indicators. You
do watch the indicators on your car, don't you?
> > Remember that the amp you got was probably borrowed by others, and therefore
> > has been jostled around before.
>
> I have solid state amps that take a lickin and keep on tickin for
> years. Look at your CAR STEREOs bright light!
As I said, my amp has had no problems, been cross country a few times, and operated
daily for years.
This is not to mention my 35 year old Fender guitar amps. They've been tipped over,
spilled on, overdriven, knocked around, kicked, and yet they operate very well to
this day.
> > A good new tube amp shouldn't just fry and start spitting sparks. The tubes
> > might wear out, but you shouldn't expect any less reliability from the rest of
> > your purchase.
>
> Huh? TUBES ARE FOR BOOBS.
We're not exaggerating, are we?
I also think maintenance and reliability go hand-in-hand. If you maintain a tube amp,
you'll likely have a reliable tube amp.
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
>
> >but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
> >inherently less reliable.
>
> That's a gross distortion.
Sorry - I missed that one. You are right. Tubes are full of gross
distortion.
> Transistors were originally known as the worlds fastest fuse becausae it took
> them a long time to reach the reliability of tubes.
But in today's world, the transistor amplifiers are dramatically more
reliable. This is beyond argument, and to deny this is sheer
unadulterated idiocy.
> To this day television and radio transmission stations depend on tubes to
> provide the very high voltages that they require to deliver the kilowatts of
> power to antennas because there simply aren't transistors capable of delivering
> the current/voltages.
Not all do, and this has little to do with audio amplification.
> Before the transistor tubes were flying in airplanes and spaceships.
Hey, before cars, we rode horses. Big fucking deal. Before jets we flew
props. Big deal.
> Having said all this, tubes do have a certain lifespan measured in hundreds of
> hours.
YUP!
> It varies not only on the tube but on the manufacturer and the specific
> design.
YUP! and the sound varies from day to day and hour to hour and you never
know when they are gonna make like Mt Vesuvius.
> Remember that the amp you got was probably borrowed by others, and therefore
> has been jostled around before.
I have solid state amps that take a lickin and keep on tickin for
years. Look at your CAR STEREOs bright light!
> A good new tube amp shouldn't just fry and start spitting sparks. The tubes
> might wear out, but you shouldn't expect any less reliability from the rest of
> your purchase.
Huh? TUBES ARE FOR BOOBS.
PAUL MACCA
>A good new tube amp shouldn't just fry and start spitting sparks.
Perhaps it was a bad output tube. No tube company today (Svetlana, Sovtek,
RAM, Golden Dragon, etc.) is able to provide a 0% defect rate on their
products, even matched premium sets. While some companies claim to reject so
much percent of the tubes made after initial factory testing, you will still
have a few bad apples here and there, especially when it comes to output tubes.
When I first purchased my new Mac 275, it warmed up nicely but when I actually
sent a signal through it, one of the KT88s (Svetlana) made a loud pop, flashed,
and the whole amp went dead as the fuse blew. No problem, I went to the dealer
the next day, and he gave me a replacement set of KT88s along with a new fuse,
and I've been in audio nirvana ever since. =)
>The tubes
>might wear out, but you shouldn't expect any less reliability from the rest
>of
>your purchase.
>
>
All tubes wear out, eventually. But if the amp is maintained and well cared
for, they can last an awful long time. (You may even have to decide upon the
lucky soul who will inherit it in your will. =) It's no coincidence that
vintage tube gear from McIntosh, Marantz, Dynaco, Heathkit, Fisher, etc. are in
such demand today and are meticulously restored and fussed over by
professionals and hobbyists alike.
In the mean time, I don't see much of a demand for 30 year old SS Fisher amps.
Todd Krieger
a...@4rings.net (OOOO) wrote:
>
> I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
> retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
> am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
> back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
> 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
> amp's for me" it fried!?)
>
> Any thoughts?
>
Todd Krieger
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Roger W. Stevens WA3FLE
rattle everybody's cages. Methinks you're a plant, a straightman, a ruse.
Of course you're not. Anthem stuff is the less-expensive line from Sonic
Frontiers, known for high parts quality, high price, and often very
solid-state-sounding tube products (ironically, per this discussion). The
Amp-1, in particular, seems hindered by pretty small output transformers it
seems to me, and should only be depended on to deliver maybe 30 wpc. You did
not mention what speakers you were using (did you?--I'm too lazy to look
back), or perhaps better stated, what you were trying to do with the amp.
Maybe you fried it trying to get 110 dB out of a pair of PSB Goldi's, which
would be a stretch, but I wouldn't expect fireworks. However, nothing is
perfect. It wouldn't be fair to condemn tube amps for one failure. My Dyna
Mark III's I built in my college dorm room in 1969 are still working fine.
Can't say they always have--6550's of years past didn't like screen voltage of
over 400 volts, so I switched to 7027A's. Literally haven't had a minute's
trouble since. Not to mention an EICO HF-81, an EICO ST-40, a Dyna SCA-35, or
any of my 1950's ham gear--Hammarlund receivers, Johnson transmitters,
Drake twins, and so on. It's a feel thing.
73, Roger WA3FLE
Norristown, PA
In article <6q7guc$f...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, a...@4rings.net (OOOO) wrote:
>
>I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
>retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
>about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break? I
>am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
>back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
>5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
>amp's for me" it fried!?)
>
>Any thoughts?
>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright ©1998 Roger W. Stevens WA3FLE--Norristown, PA
*Double Lung Transplant, Univ. of Maryland--June 10, 1997*
>email: rste...@voicenet.com
>amprnet: wa3...@wa3fle.ampr.org [44.80.12.33]
>ax25: WA3FLE@WB3JOE.#EPA.PA.USA.NA
*Be an organ and tissue donor and tell your family about it.*
*Don't take your organs to Heaven; you won't need them there.*
Visit my homepage at http://www.voicenet.com/~rstevens
---------------------------------------------------------------
Roger W. Stevens WA3FLE
Int-1 with respect to its power rating. The Amp-1 is indeed a beefier piece.
But my point was not so much how inferior Anthem gear is (it's not), but
rather like anything, if you beat it up, who knows what can happen? My email
to this original poster bounced, by the way, so maybe it is the Zipper
provoking himself.
73, Roger WA3FLE
Norristown, PA
In article <1ASx1.807$NJ5.5...@news2.voicenet.com>, rste...@voicenet.com
Kevin Deal / Upscale Audio
>
> Now see what you've done--you've given the Zipster a platform with which to
> rattle everybody's cages. Methinks you're a plant, a straightman, a ruse.
>
> Of course you're not. Anthem stuff is the less-expensive line from Sonic
> Frontiers, known for high parts quality, high price, and often very
> solid-state-sounding tube products (ironically, per this discussion). The
> Amp-1, in particular, seems hindered by pretty small output transformers it
> seems to me, and should only be depended on to deliver maybe 30 wpc. You did
> not mention what speakers you were using (did you?--I'm too lazy to look
> back), or perhaps better stated, what you were trying to do with the amp.
> Maybe you fried it trying to get 110 dB out of a pair of PSB Goldi's, which
I'm not sure which amp you speak of. If you mean the Integrated 1, it
is rated at 25 wpc so your 30 watt comment is fine. The iron in the Amp
1 is certainly different, and of course it uses EL34's. The "solid
state sounding" comment may be a bit off, IMHO.
The Anthem Pre 1 is a neutral preamp...as it was designed. If someone
wants a more "tubey" sound from this or any product from any manufacture
(or if they want to go in the other direction) they should contact us as
we do tube upgrades and can help fine tune any product to personal
taste. Besides selling the gear, we retube a number of preamps and
power amps every day for owners of ARC, BAT, C-J, SF, etc etc with fine
new old stock tubes, as well as some current production.
The Amp-1 is, even at it's low price, one of the most musically
satisfying amps I've ever used. It is far from solid state sounding and
has a classic ultralinear glow which represents all the great attributes
people look for in tubes. I could listen to one all day.
--
Regards,
Kevin Deal Precision selected fine vintage audio tubes
Upscale Audio Authorized Dealer: Balanced Audio Technology,
2504 Spring Terrace Sonic Frontiers, Anthem, Golden Tube, Odyssey,
Upland, CA 91784 Audible Illusions, Presence, Basis, Benz, B&K
Voice(909) 931-9686 Meadowlark, PSB, Nitty Gritty, Speakercraft
Fax (909) 985-6968 Eminent Technology, Kimber Synergistic Research
Nordost Flatline, and lots more
Kevin Deal / Upscale Audio
>
> Zip is, of course, entitled to his opinion. However, for the sake of balance,
> I wonder if Kevin Deal, another dealer active on RAO (with an obviously
> different bias - pun intended) would care to respond? :):)
>
>
I differ with Zip on this one, though I would agree statistically, tube
amps will be more prone to needing care. But how much? On Sonic
Frontiers amps it's a matter of looking at some LED's and turning some
small screws every six months. Takes 3 minutes. On BAT gear it's auto
bias. At worst case in some gear you use a multi-meter.
In the stuff that is conservatively designed you don't lose tubes much.
But reality states you may. But the percentage, while higher than solid
state, is not a big deal.
So while it may not be the choice of Ma and Pa Trailerpark, I don't
think a Sumo Andromeda II would be either. (the message here is solid
state amps break, too)
There are dependable designs and break-o's in each camp.
I was talking with Evanna Manley (who is truly the Queen of Tubes and
is one of the coolest people in high end) and she stated that there are
recording studios in L.A. that leave their KT90 equipped amps on 24hrs
for years without service. This speaks to a conservative design and the
KT90's long life (I never see one that tests low...the Energizer Bunny
of power tubes).
I have to disagree with Zip's statement that they sound different from
one day to the next. There is no technical reason for that, and it's
not true any more than it would be for solid state, assuming both are
warmed up. And tubes get to operating temperature pretty quick.
July was a record month for Upscale Audio. Bigger than Christmas when
it's supposed to be the "slow time of year". And most of it tubes, tube
amps and pre-amps. Go figure.
I just sent tubes that went into the amp of one of the most recognized
guitar players in the world. He's on tour and needs something that
won't break in an arena full of of thousands of people, as well as their
studio, and sounds like music. This guy is known for having a good
ear.
I'll make sure to tell his chief engineer that "tubes are for boobs".
He'll like that.
OOOO
In article <6q7t5u$8...@hawk-hcsc.hcsc.com>, jeffb@amber (Jeff Bernhard) writes:
> OOOO (a...@4rings.net) wrote:
> : I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
> : retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
> : about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break? I
> : am considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
> : back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
> : 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
> : amp's for me" it fried!?)
> Your experience begs for more information, to understand what went
> wrong and why. Was it the product design, or the way it was used that led
> to the unhappy results you report?
<I am the original poster>
To sum it up and offer more information on the incident, I was driving
a pair of PSB Century 300i speakers, connected to the 8 ohm speaker
output on the Int-1 as per the dealer's recommendation, banana plugs
were used, with fixed left and right plugs on the speakers' end (to
prevent amp short out). A Marantz CD-67SE was the source.
The amp was already quite hot when I took it from the dealer (it has
been running prior to my arrival). Upon setting everything up, the amp
was playing and sounding fine for the first 5 minutes, then I hear
distortion, saw smoke coming up from the amp cabinet, and the amp shut
itself off. I didn't notice anything unusual prior to the shutdown,
because I had no previous experience with tubes and Anthem equipment.
(tubes glow, don't they?)
The dealer told me to transport the amp flat in the trunk, which I did,
and the trip back home was only 5 minutes, plus another 10 minutes of
set up time, which allowed the amp to cool down a bit. The volume
setting was around the 9 o'clock position. I wasn't trying to produce
110db.
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
> provoking himself.
>
> 73, Roger WA3FLE
> Norristown, PA
Don't be an ass! Perhaps you are one of the boobs ;-)
Zip
AubreyB693
engineer that "tubes are for boobs".
>He'll like that.
I have had a number of British tube units (Grant, Michelson&Austin, Lumley)
which ran such a high bias to get so called high power that the tubes were
always being replaced. 180 watts from 4 6550As-not likely for long!! But I had
older Scotts, Fisher, and Macs that seemed to run forever. My current set of
ARC Classic 120s (eight 6650As a side at 110 watts and fan cooled) are on most
of the time w/o a single failure. If I wanted tube units, and it is my
preference, I would look for reasonable output, a well known tube, fan cooling
in amps, and moderate bias. I know not what this opinion, satisfactory to my
self, has to do with mamaries!
Roy Briggs
>OOOO wrote:
>> I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
>> retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
>> about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break?
>Yes.
No. The current densities within tubes mean they can stand
horrendous overload abuse that would blow transistors in
seconds. My homebrew tube line / MC pre-amp has been
running 24 hours for the past 7 years. The tubes are relatively
inexpensive Mullard Special Quality type.
>For low level devices, like preamps, DACs, tuners, etc, they are
>just fine, but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
>inherently less reliable.
Tube preamps are high voltage and they are also amplifiers.
Many musicians swear by tube guitar amps because they
have a reputation for superb sound quality and indestructable
build and solid reliability.
>In addition, they change their sound
>throughout their life, and they have high cost maintainance.
Some can mellow in time, but it's by no means a general rule. The
cost maintenance is generally low because tubes, if run correctly
and within their operating limits, can last for many years and
provide a sound quality that is superb. If you like their sound, then
the cost of replacing spent tubes when the time arrives will be
worth it.
>> I'm considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
>> back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
>> 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
>> amp's for me" it fried!?)
>When it comes to amps, tubes are for boobs.
When it comes to hi-fi, personal preference should never be sniffed
at. Tubes are an option if you find SS not to your liking.
__________________________________
Men will confess to treason, murder, arson, false
teeth, or a wig. How many of them will own up
to a lack of humor?
--FRANK MOORE COLBY
Roy Briggs. Remove [SPAMOFF] to reply.
tri...@my-dejanews.com
"Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)" <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
> David Mester wrote:
> >
> > Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc) <z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote in
> > article <35C757...@sunshinestereo.com>...
> > > OOOO wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > You're a boob.
>
> Sir:
> Sorry if I affected you sensibilities. But toobs suck for amplifiers.
> Read the following again:
>
> just fine, but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
> throughout their life, and they have high cost maintainance
>
> There is only truth their. Tubes are for boobs like you
> ]Zip
> Sunshine Stereo, Inc http://www.sunshinestereo.com
> Tel: 305-757-9358 Fax: 305-757-1367
> 9535 Biscayne Blvd Miami Shores FL 33138
> PASS Labs NOVA Audio EAD Miranda CODA Audible Illusions CEC
> Camelot Technology Audio Logic Parasound Kinergetics Cabasse
> Chiro Benz Micro Gallo Acoustics Dunlavy Audio NEAR NHT Jadis
> Niles Zenith INTEQ Crystal Vision Straightwire Mordaunt Short ESP
> Rega Vans Evers Cleanlines Monster Cable ENTECH Arcane Audio
> Sunshine Stereo encourages all audiophiles to support their local
> dealers. If you do not have a local dealer, we will gladly assist
> you with all your audio and video needs! *** ENJOY THE MUSIC! ***
>
hey, if toobs are for boobs, i guess pass is for the
ass :-) take it easy on me steve :-)
dale shepherd
n.p. allman brothers- eat a peach
Armand
.....and Jadis is for........?
Armand
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
> >hey, if toobs are for boobs, i guess pass is for the
> >ass :-) take it easy on me steve :-)
> >
> >dale shepherd
>
> .....and Jadis is for........?
Flyer fans ;-)
Armand
>
>Armand wrote:
>
>> >hey, if toobs are for boobs, i guess pass is for the
>> >ass :-) take it easy on me steve :-)
>> >
>> >dale shepherd
>>
>> .....and Jadis is for........?
>
>Flyer fans ;-)
>Zip
OK. Rabid Flyers' fan Vincenzo is on his way to Sunshine as we speak.
Have the amp ready Steve. A little proscuitto and melon wouldn't hurt either.
In fact, it's *highly* recommended. ;}
Armand
Dutchtr827
product. Products are only as reliable as the design and the quality of the
components used to build it. Any product designed correctly and build well
will last for years (if not abused) wether it be a SS amp or a tube amp. The
other thing people need to remember that once a horse salesman always a horse
salesmen. Do any of you know when a person selling SS poducts is lying. His
lips are moving :-)
Regards to all
Johann
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
You are totally wrong. Tube amplifiers are inherently less reliable
than solid state amplifiers. Of course one can site specific examples
to try to refute this, but reality is that tubes break far more often.
Gary D. Markowitz
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc) wrote in message
**** for the humor impared, the following is said in fun and is NOT intended
as a flame****
Hey, what do you expect from a guy who can't hear the difference between
Pass monobolocks and a Yamaha reciever :-).
Gary, who uses tubes to drive Apogee Duettas II's
Dutchtr827
The more I read the things the Zipster says about tube ampe the more I realize
that he has never owned a quality tube amp. I have many tube amps in my
collection that have never been repaired and that are over 50 years old
(original tubes even) . I do not think there is even a SS amp out there that
is that old. I have seen many SS amps go up in smoke when the ouput
tanssitors gave up the gost. Lovely look and smell ;-( . I also have seen SS
amps take out speakers when the ouput stage melts down and puts the B+ directly
to the speakers. SS amps have their place in the audio world, but not driving
my speakers. For those of you who love SS amps I am happy you found something
you enjoy. Most likely your ears cannot detect the critical sounds required to
enjoy the pure musical sound of a good tube amp. Maybe your hearing loss is
about 3 dB down in the upper range of the spectrum and need the harsh sounds of
a SS amp to provide the extra boost in this range. Like a famous person once
said. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The ear and its perspective on
sound is most likely the same way. Not everyone can hear the full spectrum of
sound and therefore can put up with SS amps.
Regards to all
Johann
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
>
> HI Zip
>
> The more I read the things the Zipster says about tube ampe the more I realize
> that he has never owned a quality tube amp.
I have owned:
Marantz 8B and Model Two monoblocks
Dyna 70mkIII
Quad Model Twos
Audio Research D-150 and Classic 150 and D-76A
Conrad Johnson MV-75 and Premier 11
Michaelson Austin TVA-10
Cary Signature (don't remember the model)
Jadis Defy 7
Well, I guess that blows your latest theory. I prefer amy of the PASS
or Spectral or CODA amps to any of the above.
> I have many tube amps in my
> collection that have never been repaired and that are over 50 years old
> (original tubes even). > I do not think there is even a SS amp out there that
> is that old.
Gee, duh, the transistor isn't that old. What does that mean? My
Bimmer hasn't been around as long as the horse and buggy.
> I have seen many SS amps go up in smoke when the ouput
> tanssitors gave up the gost. Lovely look and smell ;-( . I also have seen SS
> amps take out speakers when the ouput stage melts down and puts the B+ directly
> to the speakers. SS amps have their place in the audio world, but not driving
> my speakers. For those of you who love SS amps I am happy you found something
> you enjoy.
Yup - and they work, and they are CCURATE and the ARE MORE MUSICAL!
You see, Johna, I habe a lot of live master tapes, and the PASS Aleph
Two's or a Spectral DMA-90. or a CODA 100 reproduce those tapes more
accurately, more musically, and MORE REALISTICALLY.
You want to enjoy retro hifi, go ahead. You want to pretend that tubes
are as reliableas solidstate? Well, enjoy your fantasyland.
> Most likely your ears cannot detect the critical sounds required to
> enjoy the pure musical sound of a good tube amp.
WRONG. Most likely you enjoy a murky, soggy, mushy, veiled sound.
Cheers
Zip
Dutchtr827
Is is now clearly understood that the harsh sounds (even harmonic distortion)
of the SS amps have done damage to your hearing. Futhermore, if you prefer the
SS amp over the amps you listed (not the best amps in the world, but they are
good) then I suggest you go to the nearest ENT MD anf get your hearing
checked.
Regards
Johann
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
Johann:
My hearing is fine. Perhaps you are hanging out at Paradiso or Der
Milky Weg too much.
Dutchtr827
I had more time for this type of amusement. I wish all of you all the luck
in the world with your equipment. SS or tube, it really does not matter as
long as you are happy with the sound. It is like arguing over religion or
politics. Everyone has their opinion and as long as they think they are right
you might as well just cuddle up in front of the fireplace with a brandy and be
ready for a long night.
Wishing good health, good hearing and good sound to all the audio experts.
Johann
NigelBD
>than solid state amplifiers.
Even if this where categorically true, it has NOTHING to do with the voltages
at the output, so there's little reason to expect a well designed, and
fabricated amp from being any less reliable than a preamp.
Regards,
Nigel
NigelBD
Well, at least I know now that I'll probably never like anything Zip
recommends. <sigh> And I wanted to try out a Camelot DAC too.
David Mester
> You see, Johna, I habe a lot of live master tapes, and the PASS Aleph
> Two's or a Spectral DMA-90. or a CODA 100 reproduce those tapes more
> accurately, more musically, and MORE REALISTICALLY.
>
How do you know? You can't know what's encoded on those tapes. What
you're really saying is that the Pass, Spectral and Coda reproduce those
tapes more to YOUR liking than other amps.
DAvid Mester
Brian L. McCarty
> Well, I guess that blows your latest theory. I prefer amy of the PASS
> or Spectral or CODA amps to any of the above.
> saleshacking swine!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Only two tools are necessary to disassemble a computer: A philips-head
screwdriver and the floor. Almost everything comes apart with screws, but
once in a while you have to get tough and use the floor tool.
-- from an article by Bob Parks, Wired 7/97
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Eric Barbour
the August issue of IEEE SPECTRUM magazine.....
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)
>
> If you guys wanna silence Mr. Zipser, try
> the August issue of IEEE SPECTRUM magazine.....
Its about as relavent as is the reliability of lightbulbs on Remulac.
Ohmygoodness, look where the poster is from! Svetlana!
They make tubes, don't they.
Tube amps in high-end audio applications are much less reliable than
solid state amps - for many years - whether you like it or not!
Zip
--
Dave
I have a McIntosh MC240 built in 1965 that I listen to everyday and
have never had a problem with it. What exactly is inherently less
reliable about it? Please be specific.
Thanks,
Dave.
On 4 Aug 1998 18:50:11 GMT, "Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc)"
<z...@sunshinestereo.com> wrote:
>OOOO wrote:
>>
>> I borrowed a tube integrated amp (Anthem Integrated 1) from my audio
>> retailer back home to have an audition, but the amp fried itself after
>> about 5 minutes of playing time. Are tube amps very easy to break?
>
>Yes. For low level devices, like preamps, DACs, tuners, etc, they are
>just fine, but for high voltage products like amplifiers, they are
>inherently less reliable. In addition, they change their sound
>throughout their life, and they have high cost maintainance
>
>> I'm considering buying the Anthem but after such experience I will sit
>> back and seriously think about it again. But I have to admit the first
>> 5 minutes was absolutely fabulous. (Geez, just when I was thinking "this
>> amp's for me" it fried!?)
>>
>
>When it comes to amps, tubes are for boobs.
>Zip
>
>
>> Isaac [ f y s t @ m a g m a . c a ]
>> Fight Your Speeding Tickets page (FYST):
>> http://www.magma.ca/~fyst
>
Jester
Brian L. McCarty wrote in message <980816233...@earthlink.net>...
>In article <35d76dda...@enews.newsguy.com>, da...@inet.net (Dave)
>writes:
>> I have a McIntosh MC240 built in 1965 that I listen to everyday and
>> have never had a problem with it. What exactly is inherently
>> less reliable about it? Please be specific.
>
>
>unreliable in that he can't count on you coming to buy a "new" amp every
year
>or two. This is as "unreliable" a product as he can think of!
The place I work for routinely takes high end amps in for trade that are a
decade old, sometimes older, many of which are in perfect working order,
sound great, are built like tanks, and have many years of life left in them
for some lucky purchaser.
We don't consider that unreliable at all.
Jester
Phil
Just a point here. Tubes, traditionally, have been consider less
reliable than soild state amps because of the basic design of tubes. A
tube, if you will, is like a light bulb. That is, you heat up an element
to get the tube to function. The heating of the metal element causes
thermal shock that will over time cause the tube to fail.
About ten years ago the designs using tubes required a lot of fooling
around, re-setting biases etc., to replace a tube. it was a pain and
tubes failed more often than many care for.
However, the change in design philosophy or if you will, fashion, has
change things. It is now easier to replace tubes, no re-biasing, and the
tubes have gotten better. The best, believe or not, are now from Russia.
The problems with reliability of tube amps are far less now they are
still fundamentally less reliable than soild state. Get what you like.
For those of you who wish to read a bit more on the advantages of tubes
please look at this months, Aug., IEEE Spectrum. This is an electrical
engineering journal but you can find it at Barnes and Normal, (excuse
spelling I'm not sure I got this right but hopefully you can figure this
out.), here in Los Angeles.
Phil
Ron
wrote:
Tube equipment is *inherently* less reliable than SS
equipment, because it runs at far higher temperatures, at
far higher voltages and utilizes tubes, that wear with use
and require occasional replacement (which is why they are
mounted in sockets).
That said, the ultimate reliability of a piece of equipment
depends on the design and implementation. An engineer can
easily design very reliable tube equipment, by allowing for
the inherent shrotcomings of tube circutry. Any McIntosh
product is proof of that.
-- Ron
>
>I have a McIntosh MC240 built in 1965 that I listen to everyday and
>have never had a problem with it. What exactly is inherently less
>reliable about it? Please be specific.
>
BJRICHMAN
>Tube equipment is *inherently* less reliable than SS
>equipment, because it runs at far higher temperatures, at
>far higher voltages and utilizes tubes, that wear with use
>and require occasional replacement (which is why they are
>mounted in sockets).
>
>That said, the ultimate reliability of a piece of equipment
>depends on the design and implementation. An engineer can
>easily design very reliable tube equipment, by allowing for
>the inherent shrotcomings of tube circutry. Any McIntosh
>product is proof of that.
>
>-- Ron
>
>>
I agree with you.
Most tube amplifier enthusiasts don't equate the occasional need to replace
tubes as an indication of unreliability - it is simply seen as a necessary
maintenance item, which assuming average use and proper biasing of the output
tubes, does not need to be done usually more than once every couple of years at
the most. Additionally, many of the tube amplifiers popularly used (e.g. Audio
Research, conrad-johnson, Sonic Frontiers, etc.) - have easy-to-use bias
adjustment pots requiring no special equipment such as multimeters or other
devices.
Companies such as McIntosh, conrad-johnson, Audio Research and others have
developed enviable reputations and marketplace acceptance because of their high
quality products. They have also been in business for a long time. Both their
reputations and their longevity were primarily earned through their focus on
tubed rather than SS gear.
Bruce J. Richman, Ph.D.
Dave
Hello All,
I'm new to this NG and have been lurking long enough to realize that
this Zipser fellow really isn't a very smart individual.
I'm essentially a good and generous person at heart so I'll refrain
from referring to him as a dork.
Dave.
George M. Middius
Just as well. RAO already has a resident dork, and
he is the envy of 33,000 other newsgroups.
George M. Middius
remove "jiffy" to reply
From the Resistance — serving normals since 1997
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm new to this NG and have been lurking long enough to realize that
> this Zipser fellow really isn't a very smart individual.
>
> I'm essentially a good and generous person at heart so I'll refrain
> from referring to him as a dork.
>
Are you trying to say that I am wrong? Are you saying that tube
amplifiers are more reliable than solid state amplifiers?
If so, than you are not only the dork, you would be a blithering idiot,
so we'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt.
Tube amplifiers are absolutely, unequivocably, beyond any doubt LESS
RELIABLE than solid state amplifiers. They also require much more
maintainance.
Now, I have reliability records AND 25 years experience in this
business.
Steve Zipser
Gary D. Markowitz
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote in message
<35DA68...@sunshinestereo.com>...
>
>Are you trying to say that I am wrong? Are you saying that tube
>amplifiers are more reliable than solid state amplifiers?
>If so, than you are not only the dork, you would be a blithering idiot,
>so we'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt.
I'd consider them just as reliable, if not more for the following reasons:
I've purchased around 10 pieces of vintage tube gear at garage sales, junk
shops, and church sales. Some of the pieces are over 40 years old, and the
most work any of them has needed was new caps. The vast majority of them
worked perfectly without any work and some even had the original branded
tubes that still tested good.
These include 2 Scott tuners, 1 Sherwood tuner, 2 Eico ST 70 integrated
amps, 3 Scott integrated amps, 1 sherwood integrated amp, 1 Dyna PAS3, 1
Heathkit SP-2, 2 Ampex amp/speaker cases, 1 Ampex R2R deck and a Bogen
reciever.
I've run into far more dead or half dead transistor equipment than I have
tubes, and most of the transistor stuff was much newer.
>Tube amplifiers are absolutely, unequivocably, beyond any doubt LESS
>RELIABLE than solid state amplifiers. They also require much more
>maintainance.
What do you consider unreliable? Do you consider turntables unreliable
because the stylus wears out? Or maybe belts? Are they unnreliable because
you need to lube them periodically or adjust the suspension?
Tubes wear out, that's the nature of the beast, and is no different than
having to retip or replace your phono cart. It's an informed decision that
the purchaser makes. Bias may or may not need adjustments depending on
whether you're using cathode bias or fixed. These are maintainance issues,
not reliability issues. Are you as upset over having to do oil changes in
your car? Is it unreliable because you need to have it serviced
periodically?
Gary
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)
Gary:
You are simply wrong. Take for example a $1000 Parasound amp and a
$1000 Golden Tube Audio amp. Which is more reliable? Take a Mac 240
and a MAC 2105 which is more reliable?
To try to maintain that the best tube designs are as bullet ptoof as the
best solid state designs is ABSURD. It is absolute idiocy!
Zip
Chris Johnson
enough
that most RAO denizens can understand it with a little practice.
Tubes by their very nature will eventually age and stop working as intended. As
they
get older their emission drops off and the environment in the tube slowly gets a
bit
gassy. It's a physical limitation of the technology.
However, that's not to say that tubes can't have a VERY long service life.
Take the Western Electric 300B: (PLEASE!) It was designed for a 40,000 hour
operational lifespan because it was developed for in-cable amplifiers for the
first
transatlantic phone lines on the sea floor. OBVIOUSLY, servicing one of these
would be a pain! So they designed the tubes to expire after the cable had been
rendered obsolete by a new cable. If a part outlasts the item it's part of, then
you've made a lifetime part.
Transistors, on the other hand, in normal operating conditions, should NEVER
go bad, at least, not before the equipment is so old that it's probably been in
the landfill or a museum for at least fifty years. The only natural aging
process
involved in transistors is the very slow diffusion process which will eventually
result in the transistor being turned into an undifferentiated lump of
contaminated
silicon, some unknown hundreds or thousands of years in the future. The casing
should corrode to dust before that happens.
The average transistor amp will eventually need new electrolytic capacitors.
Years from now.
The average tube amp will eventually need new electrolytic capacitors and new
tubes.
Years from now.
Any questions? There shouldn't be, it's simple enough even Bill Clinton could
understand it.
CJ
Trotsky
What's your point? Even if you had ANY statistical analysis of tube amp
reliability vs. SS reliability, what would that tell us? Are tube amps
considered unusable, because they are blowing up right and left? No. Are
they considered unsellable, because there are too many dissatisfied
customers complaining about their tube amps blowing up? No. Why don't you
just admit the truth, for once in your life, Zip--that solid-state is an
"easier sell" than tube amps, and that is why you continually condemn the
latter. Every statement you make on this group is sales related, unless it
is condemning McCarty's weight, which is ultra-hypocritical because you
certainly don't want anyone condemning your religion. In fact, I don't
even think you like hi-fi--I think you just use it as a way of making
money.
Cheers.
--
Greg M. Singh
g...@wwa.com
Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.)
My point? If tube amps were as reliable AND as good sounding AND as
accurate, then they'd be a viable alternative to a high quality SS
amplifler. THAT is my point, Einstein.
Yup, solid state IS easier to sell, because you do not have to be a
whacko nutcase to buy one :-)
Zip
Trotsky
You know, Zip, if I were a Jadis owner, I would e-mail your statement to
the importer. Talking crap like this really is bad for the industry.
Gary D. Markowitz
>Gary:
>You are simply wrong. Take for example a $1000 Parasound amp and a
>$1000 Golden Tube Audio amp. Which is more reliable? Take a Mac 240
>and a MAC 2105 which is more reliable?
I've got no experience with either of those brands. But I'd still like you
to define what you mean by unreliable. Do the output trannys blow, do
random components smoke, power supply caps, rectifiers, or reguators go?
>To try to maintain that the best tube designs are as bullet ptoof as the
>best solid state designs is ABSURD. It is absolute idiocy!
I never maintained that the best solid state gear is or isn't as reliable as
the best tube gear. I'm merely stating that if the build quality is high,
and components aren't used too close to their limits, tube gear in general
is just as reliable as solid state gear. I do not consider tubes wearing
out as a reliability problem, any more than a stylus wearing out. Replacing
tubes is required maintenance, as is adjusting hum pots and bias settings.
Solid state gear may be more convenient and of lower long term cost to run,
but it is simply not an inherent reliablilty issue, period.
Gary
Powell
>Dave wrote
>The fact is perfectly working tube gear is still
>junk compared to a nice modern solid state amp.
>
Poor D-A-V-E, so lonely without his Arny.
Dave
<marko...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>Steve Zipser (Sunshine Stereo, Inc.) wrote in message
><35DA68...@sunshinestereo.com>...
>>
>>Are you trying to say that I am wrong? Are you saying that tube
>>amplifiers are more reliable than solid state amplifiers?
>>If so, than you are not only the dork, you would be a blithering idiot,
>>so we'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt.
>
>
>I'd consider them just as reliable, if not more for the following reasons:
>
>I've purchased around 10 pieces of vintage tube gear at garage sales, junk
>shops, and church sales. Some of the pieces are over 40 years old, and the
>most work any of them has needed was new caps. The vast majority of them
>worked perfectly without any work and some even had the original branded
>tubes that still tested good.
>
I believe you when you say that most of the tube gear you bought at junk sales
worked fine. The fact is perfectly working tube gear is still junk compared to
PAUL MACCA
>I do not consider tubes wearing
>out as a reliability problem, any more than a stylus wearing out. Replacing
>tubes is required maintenance, as is adjusting hum pots and bias settings.
Good point, Gary. Some people have confused "reliability" with "maintenance."
For example, tires, brakes, batteries, and fan belts on a car all wear out
sooner or later under normal everyday use. Would it make sense to say that a
certain model car is "unreliable" because you had to change the battery after 5
years? Of course not! It is perfectly normal for stuff like that to wear out
and be replaced every so often. No car battery lasts forever.
The same thing with tube components. While different types of tubes all have
varying life spans under different working conditions, eventually they will all
need to be replaced. Once again, this is normal. If a tube wears out when it
is close to or has already exceeded its lifetime expectancy, this is not the
fault of the amp itself. It is true that some new tubes are defective from the
get-go, but once again, this has nothing to do with the amp if other tubes work
perfectly fine in their place. The issue of whether a tube amp is reliable or
not would arise from problems like a noisy transformer or an amp that "smokes"
through numerous tubes that were supposedly in good condition.
That said, tube amps are not for everyone. If you are the type who likes to
"set it and forget it," then go with SS, by all means. But to those who don't
mind the extra cost and inconvienience, you owe it to yourself to listen and
decide for yourself. Let your ears be the judge, not the opinions of others.
gins...@catskill.net
David Ginsberg
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Greg Pavlov
PAUL MACCA (paul...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: Good point, Gary. Some people have confused "reliability" with "maintenance."
: sooner or later under normal everyday use. Would it make sense to say that a
: certain model car is "unreliable" because you had to change the battery
:
Would you call a car tire tube that typically had to be
patched at least once on a long trip "reliable" ? I
doubt it. But that was the case in the early days of
the automobile. That's the point of view that people
are coming from. At some point in the evolution of
technology,what was a "maintenance" issue to one
generation becomes a "reliability" issue to another.
greg pavlov
[not affiliated with Canisius College]
Powell
>Gary D. Markowitz
>I never maintained that the best solid state
>gear is or isn't as reliable as the best tube
>gear. I'm merely stating that if the build
>quality is high, and components aren't used
>too close to their limits, tube gear in general
>not consider tubes wearing out as a reliability
>problem, any more than a stylus wearing out.
>Replacing tubes is required maintenance, as
>is adjusting hum pots and bias settings.
>of lower long term cost to run, but it is simply
>not an inherent reliablilty issue, period.
>
built today then 20 years ago. It would not be
economically feasible for companies to make
tube equipment that consumed profit via returned
warranty work. In my limited experience the
quality of the hand work and circuitry in tubed
equipment is of far better quality than your typical
mass-market equipment. To say they are
unreliable is ridiculous... unless you consider
the source :-).
PAUL MACCA
> patched at least once on a long trip "reliable" ? I
>doubt it. But that was the case in the early days of
>the automobile.
Ah, but you are applying 1990s standards of "reliability" on automotive
technology that is over 60 years old. Once again, if tires back then had
shorter life spans than the tires of today, that is what they designed for. In
that sense, they are not unreliable.
>That's the point of view that people
>are coming from. At some point in the evolution of
>technology,what was a "maintenance" issue to one
>generation becomes a "reliability" issue to another.
Perhaps. But once more, this goes back to what I said earlier about those who
value convienience and ease-of-use. If someone gives priority to that, then
they should stick with SS. Nothing wrong with that, its a preference. But to
those who don't mind the maintenance required with tubes, I don't see anything
wrong with that either.
Hey, there are still a lot of drivers out there who want stick shift in their
cars for normal everyday use, even though automatic transmissions are
available.
Dave
<marko...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>>
>>Gary:
>>You are simply wrong. Take for example a $1000 Parasound amp and a
>>$1000 Golden Tube Audio amp. Which is more reliable? Take a Mac 240
>>and a MAC 2105 which is more reliable?
>
>
>I've got no experience with either of those brands. But I'd still like you
>to define what you mean by unreliable. Do the output trannys blow, do
>random components smoke, power supply caps, rectifiers, or reguators go?
>
>>To try to maintain that the best tube designs are as bullet ptoof as the
>>best solid state designs is ABSURD. It is absolute idiocy!
>
>I never maintained that the best solid state gear is or isn't as reliable as
>the best tube gear. I'm merely stating that if the build quality is high,
>and components aren't used too close to their limits, tube gear in general
>is just as reliable as solid state gear. I do not consider tubes wearing
>out as a reliability problem, any more than a stylus wearing out. Replacing
>tubes is required maintenance, as is adjusting hum pots and bias settings.
>Solid state gear may be more convenient and of lower long term cost to run,
>but it is simply not an inherent reliablilty issue, period.
>
>Gary
>
I agree that tubes that wear out is not a reliability problem but a design
problem. The problem is designing an amp that uses tubes. It is important for
a product to be reliable but it is just as important that it is designed well.
Products which require high maintenence and have parts that wear out often are
poorly designed products.
Steven R. Rochlin
(HUMOR below)
>>>Yup, solid state IS easier to sell, because you do not
have to be a
whacko nutcase to buy one :-) <<<
True when it comes to solid-state, but it couldn't hurt.
Deaf is another story...
THIS IS HUMOR FOLKS!!! Sheeesh, here comes the flames
anyway...
Enjoy the music (Roger Waters "Amused to Death" right
now),
Steven
"...An honest family man
Finally reaped what he had sown
A farmer in Ohio has just repaid a loan
It's a miracle
By the grace of God Almighty
And the pressures of the marketplace
The human race has civilized itself
It's a miracle
We cower in our shelters
With our hands over our ears
Lloyd-Webber's awful stuff
Runs for years and years and years
An earthquake hits the theatre
But the operetta lingers
Then the piano lid comes down
And breaks his f--king fingers
It's a miracle"
It's the www site your mother warned you about.
Steven R. Rochlin
> As they get older their emission drops off... slowly gets
a bit gassy.<
(Humor) Hey now, i resemble those remarks
Enjoy the music,
Steven
It's the www site your mother warned you about.
gins...@catskill.net wrote in message
<6rg2br$3k7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Armand
>
>Dude,
>
>> As they get older their emission drops off... slowly gets
>a bit gassy.<
>
> (Humor) Hey now, i resemble those remarks
>
> Enjoy the music,
>
> Steven
>
> http://www.enjoythemusic.com
So, just take some Trigel (for triodes) or Pentgel (for...
Armand
n...@lightnet.co.uk
> >out as a reliability problem, any more than a stylus wearing out. Replacing
> >tubes is required maintenance, as is adjusting hum pots and bias settings.
>
"maintenance."
> For example, tires, brakes, batteries, and fan belts on a car all wear out
> sooner or later under normal everyday use. Would it make sense to say that a
> certain model car is "unreliable" because you had to change the battery after
5
> and be replaced every so often. No car battery lasts forever.
>
> The same thing with tube components. While different types of tubes all have
> varying life spans under different working conditions, eventually they will
all
> need to be replaced. Once again, this is normal. If a tube wears out when it
> is close to or has already exceeded its lifetime expectancy, this is not the
> fault of the amp itself. It is true that some new tubes are defective from
the
> get-go, but once again, this has nothing to do with the amp if other tubes
work
> perfectly fine in their place. The issue of whether a tube amp is reliable or
> not would arise from problems like a noisy transformer or an amp that "smokes"
> through numerous tubes that were supposedly in good condition.
>
> That said, tube amps are not for everyone. If you are the type who likes to
> "set it and forget it," then go with SS, by all means. But to those who don't
> mind the extra cost and inconvienience, you owe it to yourself to listen and
> decide for yourself. Let your ears be the judge, not the opinions of others.
>
I have been working with tubes since about 1962,both in amps. and in
Theremins. In amps,one of the situations which tends to give tubes a bad name
for reliability is the fact that if the amp is operated without the speaker
connected,this tends to blow the output transformer,which is EXPENSIVE.It can
happen quite easily if someone turns up the volume,and blows a speaker it can
take out the transformer too.
Some valve amps incorporate precautions against this and can operate
perfectly safely with no speaker connected,and if you have a favourite amp
which does not have this,it can usually be added as retro-fit protection by a
competent Audio Engineer.
Also valves from different manufacturers vary a lot in quality,thus some
from Eastern Bloc countries are so badly made.I recommend valves from Siemens
(Germany)-they sound noticeably better and last for ages.Although I have come
across a lot of American valves,many of which have been very good,I do not
know which are the best in the USA.Get advice from a number of unbiased
sources about the best valves to use-it could be worth it! -- mr_theremin
Julio Yeste
or had any expeience with it? It's a DIY device that incorporates both
ss and tubes in its circuitry. The purpose of the device is to allow you
to put it in-line with a source and your amp (pre- or integrated) as it
only has one input. Then you can "dial" in the amount of tube "effect"
that you want. You can go from complete ss to exaggerated tube "warmth."
It's purported to mimic the sound of "any" tube equipment in between
those extremes.
I think that is the answer - if it really works - for my c.d. player! My
equipment consists of a Carver tuner/pre-amp, Carver amp, and a Denon
c.d.changer which when played through my B&W speakers sound absolutely
beautifully! It has just the right warmth and laid back mids., and
crystal clear highs which takes me into aural nirvana every time I
listen to it! That is, except when I listen to the c.d. player which is
too bright. So I figure that if I place this device in between the c.d.
player and the pre-amp - if it does what it says it will do - I should
be able to dial in just the right amount of tube "sound" to tame that
brightness to match the tuner. (Does anyone know if radio stations use
tube equipment? Even though, I know, they use c.d.'s, they sound so
smooth!)
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Check it out at www.paia.com. And if
ou have an opinion, or form one after checking it out, please e-mail me.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Julio Yeste
Kevin Deal / Upscale Audio
>
>
> Perhaps. But once more, this goes back to what I said earlier about those who
> value convienience and ease-of-use. If someone gives priority to that, then
> they should stick with SS. Nothing wrong with that, its a preference. But to
> those who don't mind the maintenance required with tubes, I don't see anything
> wrong with that either.
>
> Hey, there are still a lot of drivers out there who want stick shift in their
> cars for normal everyday use, even though automatic transmissions are
> available.
Count me in. I have had 3 BMW's over the years starting with a 2002
that have all had four and five speeds. My understanding is that in
Germany most of them are sold with manual transmissions...though I can't
independently confirm that. But I wonder why that is?
FYI the manual trans in a BMW is bulletproof...whereas the auto is OK
but not the same reputation. The auto trans is made in France.
My next car may be an auto. Maybe. They have a shiftable auto that is
pretty nice that I tried in a 850. What a hoot.
--
Regards,
Kevin Deal Precision selected fine vintage audio tubes
Upscale Audio Authorized Dealer: Balanced Audio Technology,
2504 Spring Terrace Sonic Frontiers, Anthem, Golden Tube, Odyssey,
Upland, CA 91784 Audible Illusions, Presence, Basis, Benz, B&K
Voice(909) 931-9686 Meadowlark, PSB, Nitty Gritty, Speakercraft
Fax (909) 985-6968 Eminent Technology, Nordost Flatline, Kimber
PAUL MACCA
their
>> cars for normal everyday use, even though automatic >transmissions are
>> available.
>Count me in. I have had 3 BMW's over the years starting with a >2002
>that have all had four and five speeds. My understanding is that >in
>Germany most of them are sold with manual >transmissions...though I can't
>independently confirm that. But I wonder why that is?
According to a Wall Street Journal article, 9 out of10 cars sold in Europe are
manual. It probably has something to do with the fact that Europeans take
their driving more seriously than Americans. This is also indicated by the
fact that auto cup-holders are not as prevalent there as they are in America.
Neither are there any speed limits on the German auto-bahns.
JD Power also estimated that cars and light trucks with stick shifts sold in
1997 in the US was about 13.6%. That figure will probably drop as more drivers
are busy eating on the run and using hand-held cell phones.
----
"We gotta put out these goddamn mop-haired little bastards from England. Jesus
Christ, The Beatles! What a name! And that hair! It's gonna ruin Capitol,
I'm telling you! It's gonna ruin us!" -- Glenn Wallachs, cofounder of Capitol
Records.