SF catering to crude basal female fantasies
Captain Button
fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
Possible reasons for the latter:
A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
them.
C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
but it doesn't get published.
Discuss.
--
American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Joe Mason
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
I'm sure there must be bodice-rippers set in space. They have them set
everywhere else.
Joe
Karl M. Syring
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>
> Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>
>
> Possible reasons for the latter:
>
> A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>
> B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF
about
> them.
>
> C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about
them,
> but it doesn't get published.
>
> Discuss.
Did you ever have a look at those magazines targeted at women? One of
the immortal motives seem to be courses in amateur psychology "How do I
identify my Prince Charming?". Next, there is "How can I teach him
socially acceptable behavior?". Hey, it just does not work that way
gals.
Karl M. Syring
Mark Blunden
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired "Planet
of Amazon Men" cliche.
Alright, I'm lying.
--
Mark.
* Why make trillions when we could make... billions?
Htn963
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
Haven't read them but from what I kept hearing the Hamilton's Anita Blake
books fit the bill.
And I've noticed that Cherryh, subconsciously or not, seems to get a kick
of portraying intimate relationships, consensual or otherwise, between older
women and young males: Ari1/Justin in _Cyteen_; Mallory/Talley in _Downbelow
Station_; Morgaine/Vanye in the Morgaine series.
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Dorothy J Heydt
Karl M. Syring <syr...@email.com> wrote:
>
>Did you ever have a look at those magazines targeted at women? One of
>the immortal motives seem to be courses in amateur psychology "How do I
>identify my Prince Charming?". Next, there is "How can I teach him
>socially acceptable behavior?". Hey, it just does not work that way
>gals.
Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
then he can learn.
But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Dorothy J Heydt
>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
Well let's see. Practically anything by Anne McCaffrey.
The Highroad Trilogy by Alys Rasmussen (now aka Kate Elliott) is
a pretty good example. The Jaran stories too I guess, but since
I gave up on them after the first volume I shouldn't speak about
them.
If non-written SF counts, all the parts of Star Trek TOS with
Spock in them, the creation of D. C. Fontana.
Consider the lines from _Children of the Atom,_ paraphrased from
memory: "Nobody has ever worked out Jung's animus stuff as well
as the anima. I mean--" "You mean books like Haggard's _She_
exist, but no woman has written a book about a man who was the
animus."
But of course that was not true even in 1950 or so when the book
was written, nor in 1975 or so when it's supposed to take place.
There had been a lot of books written by women with animus
figures in them, but they (mostly) weren't SF, they were
mysteries. Consider Sayers's Lord Peter Wimsey. Consider Ngaio
Marsh's Roderick Alleyn.
C. L. Moore wrote a good amount of fantasy with animus elements,
but I don't think any SF. Northwest Smith is not my idea of an
animus figure, though he may be somebody's. Wait, I am wrong:
_Doomsday Morning._
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Captain Button wrote:
>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>
>> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired "Planet
>of Amazon Men" cliche.
>
>Alright, I'm lying.
Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
did, does not occur to him.
But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
[by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
stay with her for life.
Rick Kleffel
>
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
discerning readers and buyers.
It's a growth market.
If you're a writer and looking to sell something quick, this is
probably a good portal.
Thanks --Rickk
Jack Love
Check out J.D. Robb which is actualy SF...and if it is typical of
female fantasies, no wonder they are disappointed in men.
>Joe
David Cowie
>
> But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
> not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
> I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
> live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
awayig2 ?
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
So high, so low, so many things to know.
Geoduck
wrote:
>In article <slrnas7nt...@gate.notcharles.ca>,
>Or "Alien lover rescues woman from dreadfully boring mundane life".
>I went to a local chain used book store and found that the majority of
>their shelf space was romances, such that they had begun shelving
>separate genres *within* romance. I don't recall if they separated
>SF romance from Fantasy romance.
Anne McCaffrey appears to have come close, at least judging by the two
"Freedom's Landing" novels I saw in a used book store the other day.
--
Geoduck
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Dorothy J Heydt
David Cowie <david_co...@lineone.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:34:19 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>>
>> But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
>> not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
>> I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
>> live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> awayig2 ?
Sorry, typo. Should have been merely "away".
Mark Atwood
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
_Primary Inversion_ and sequels.
--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Keith Morrison
> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
No, no, no. You forgot an important part; where they do all
sorts of interesting things with each other and he gets to watch
as well as getting in on the action himself.
--
Keith
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, no, I didn't forget, I didn't know about that part.
Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?
But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
playing football?
John F. Carr
Rick Kleffel <gi...@trashotron.com> wrote:
>Captain Button wrote:
>>
>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>
>
>A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
>fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
>discerning readers and buyers.
Time travel seems especially popular in the last few years.
Every month or two I read a book distributor catalog that is sorted by
genre. "Romance" is alphabetically adjacent to "Science Fiction" so I
can't help but see some romance titles and synopses while looking for
SF. I have seen many descriptions like this:
"Alice despaired of ever finding a man to satisfy her, until a
mysterious time warp transported her to 19th century India, where she
met real men with muscles and no shirts who would do anything to have
her, and she would do anything to have them, and they did, and she
did, and they all lived happily ever after."
(One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
David Bilek
>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
John Norman, _X_ of Gor.
-David
David Bilek
Following up to myself, now I wonder if this was a good idea. Lets
see if anyone yells at me due to a lack of humor receptors.
-David
Mark Blunden
> In article <aq0srh$5joki$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,
> Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Captain Button wrote:
>>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>>
>> Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired
>> "Planet of Amazon Men" cliche.
>>
>> Alright, I'm lying.
>
> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
> The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
> Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
> did, does not occur to him.
Oh, absolutely. Which is why a novel using the reverse situation (not as a
form of wish-fulfillment) has a certain sense of irony.
> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.
That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
like inferior louts.
Probably quite accurately. :)
--
Mark.
* Don't jinx it
Mark Blunden
> (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
> Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
Mike Schilling
Michael Kube-McDowell
wrote:
>In article <3DC41E51...@polarnet.ca>,
>Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
>>> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
>>> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
>>
>>No, no, no. You forgot an important part; where they do all
>>sorts of interesting things with each other and he gets to watch
>>as well as getting in on the action himself.
>
>Well, no, I didn't forget, I didn't know about that part.
>
>Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?
>
>But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
>the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
>playing football?
Nope.
At least, not generally.
--
Michael Kube-McDowell - author of VECTORS, now in stores
Michael Kube-McDowell
>In article <3DC402D2...@trashotron.com>,
>Rick Kleffel <gi...@trashotron.com> wrote:
>>Captain Button wrote:
>>>
>>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>
>>A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
>>fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>>rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>>rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
>>discerning readers and buyers.
>
>Time travel seems especially popular in the last few years.
>
>Every month or two I read a book distributor catalog that is sorted by
>genre. "Romance" is alphabetically adjacent to "Science Fiction" so I
>can't help but see some romance titles and synopses while looking for
>SF. I have seen many descriptions like this:
>
>"Alice despaired of ever finding a man to satisfy her, until a
>mysterious time warp transported her to 19th century India, where she
>met real men with muscles and no shirts who would do anything to have
>her, and she would do anything to have them, and they did, and she
>did, and they all lived happily ever after."
#107 on the USA TODAY Top 150:
"The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon
"Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
wife."
Michael Kube-McDowell
wrote:
Donald Wollheim reportedly said on more than one occasion that the
typical buyer of the GOR books was female. So I thought you were
serious. <wry g>
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, I was about to recommend Randall Garrett, _Free Amazons of
Gor._ (It's a musical.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
>That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
>like inferior louts.
>Probably quite accurately. :)
Oh no. Unless you define "superior" as "like females," which
some females are so ill-advised as to do.
Both sexes are playing off the basic reproductive strategy, which
for the male is to fertilize as many females as quickly as
possible (he's only expending a few minutes and a few grams of
protein per female), and for the female to find someone who will
bond with her strongly enough to stick around, even when she's
pregnant, and help her raise the kid[s] (because she's expending
nine months of pregnancy, lots of food supplies, then up to four
years of lactation and nurture, lots more food supplies and
energy and assorted restrictions on her movements). Then you add
another million years of evolution, some increase in
intelligence, umpteen layers of past and present cultural input,
making it even more complicated. But the basic reproductive
strategy is where it starts from.
Dorothy J Heydt
Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
The only ones I ever had were about taking all the softballs (no
baseballs around) and bats on the school premises and burning
them all in a huge bonfire.
Brenda W. Clough
Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
female fantasy:
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Brenda W. Clough
>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>
>Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>
>
>Possible reasons for the latter:
>
>A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>
>B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
>them.
>
>C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
>but it doesn't get published.
>
Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
or less unobserved.
It cannot be a coincidence, all those good-looking, sensitive,
competent, caring male heroes in female authors' books.
Brenda <profound weakness for male heroes, herself>
Joe Mason
> "The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon
>
> "Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
> wife."
Nice to see they're keeping the flame alive in their marriage.
(Unless, of course, they're romancing other people...)
Joe
Karl M. Syring
> Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
What is "baseball"?
Karl M. Syring
David Bilek
What? I had no idea. So more than half of the Gor audience are
women? Interesting.
Ok, I retract my retraction. Those responsible have been sacked.
-David
Paul F. Dietz
>
> #107 on the USA TODAY Top 150:
>
> "The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon
>
> "Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
> wife."
Time travel romances became quite popular some years ago.
Paul
David Cowie
A game where the players hit a ball with a stick and run around a square
track. Popular in USA.
Doom & Gloom Dave
"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3DC43A6C...@erols.com...
> Geoduck wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:27:20 GMT, pci...@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In article <slrnas7nt...@gate.notcharles.ca>,
> >>Joe Mason <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <B9E948249...@0.0.0.0>, Captain Button wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> >>>>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
> >>>>
> >>>>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
> >>>>
> >>>I'm sure there must be bodice-rippers set in space. They have them set
> >>>everywhere else.
> >>>
> >>Or "Alien lover rescues woman from dreadfully boring mundane life".
> >>I went to a local chain used book store and found that the majority of
> >>their shelf space was romances, such that they had begun shelving
> >>separate genres *within* romance. I don't recall if they separated
> >>SF romance from Fantasy romance.
> >>
> >
> >Anne McCaffrey appears to have come close, at least judging by the two
> >"Freedom's Landing" novels I saw in a used book store the other day.
> >
>
>
> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
> female fantasy:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812566653/qid=1036270080/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6310362-6775351?v=glance
>
>
> Brenda
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
A.C.
> Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
> relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
> or less unobserved.
>
> It cannot be a coincidence, all those good-looking, sensitive,
> competent, caring male heroes in female authors' books.
I thought it was the brusque, willfull, masterful man who is reduced to
jelly by his love for the woman, then spends his time making calf-eyes at
her and mincing about.
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand
Russell
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
You really really really sure?
Oh, sorry, *football*.
Sure.
Soccer, now...
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.
...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?
Irina Rempt
> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
> female fantasy:
Well, it's certainly not *my* fantasy. I like my men somewhat more
subtle.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
John R. Campbell
> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote in
>>>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>>>
>>>
>>>Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>>>
>>>
>>>Possible reasons for the latter:
>>>
>>>A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>>>
>>>B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF
>>>about them.
>>>
>>>C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about
>>>them, but it doesn't get published.
>>
>>
>>Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
>>relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
>>or less unobserved.
>
> as many hot guys to drool over!) that their being female basal fantasies
> passes more or less unobserved. For example, Fushigi Yugi fandom - the
> anime/manga series stars 1 girl with a whole bunch of cute guys, and lots
> of the fanfic pairs the cute guys off with each other.
It's been commented that some studies suggest that women *DO*
fantasize about having two men...
1) One cooking, and
2) One cleaning.
Perhaps additional ones are less commonly listed:
3) Gardening (mowing, etc)
4) Car Repair
5) Furniture Re-Arrangement
6) Carpentry/Plumbing/Electrical work- General House Repair
I haven't figured out what *my* wife keeps me around for :-)
though I know what's *unlikely* to be on the list.
--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines so...@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
"It is impossible for ANY man to learn about impotence the hard way." - me
"ZIF is not a desirable trait when selecting a spouse." - me
Rick Kleffel
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
Oh -- I just remembered -- 'Bikini Planet' by David Garnett.
http://trashotron.com/agony/reviews/garnett-bikini_planet.htm
Looks like a cheesy novel for guys, turns out to be a cheesy novel
for guys and gals. The titular planet being one whhich specializes in
uh, spoiler space,
Marriage.
Of course, for some guys this may qualify the novel for the horror genre.
Rickk
100% serious
John R. Campbell
<ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
> ...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?
Actually, the queen bee doesn't have to worry about any of
this stuff now, does she? If she wants conversation she'll
hold one with someone who's capable of understanding her,
right?
Let's be serious here- All things being equal (despite the
fact that they're not) males have little intrinsic value
except as sperm donors.
It's only when you have a baseline system using monogamy
that the value of a male goes up- just not very much.
The phrase "love her" in the item by Dorothy forgot that
women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
*capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
here) that a woman wants.
Though enough women seem quite happy with adulation and
worship as a substitute...
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
> Possible reasons for the latter:
> A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
> B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
> them.
> C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
> but it doesn't get published.
D) C, but it does get published, though not very often.
Holly Lisle's books are borderline "crude fantasies of females" at
times. They're still good adventures even for guys, have interesting
worlds and complex plots and mysteries, but I'm sure they'd hit even
more buttons for women.
Wilhelmina Baird's novels are on that border, too. Good cyberpunk
adventures, but there's weird romance fantasy stuff going on that guys
just kind of blank out on.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"No one is safe. We will print no letters to the editor. We will give no
space to opposing points of view. They are wrong. The Underground Grammarian
is at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle." -TUG, v1n1
Mark Reichert
> Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
> You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
> addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
> in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
> then he can learn.
Where does one find a woman willing to take on such a task?<g>
I'm reminded of Protector Benjamin's words in Weber's Honor of the
Queen about while Japan wanted to be left alone, Grayson was pleading
for somebody, anybody to drag them into the present.
I'm also reminded of a bit in "Same Time, Next Year", when George says
that his wife had a big impact on his self esteem and success. How?
She married him.
Mark Reichert
> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones.
I notice you didn't say she couldn't keep up with the pace.<g>
> She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.
How about two out of four?<g> Love and commitment are easy, but one
has to be able to protect and support oneself before being able do so
for others.
Irina Rempt
r
The reason I don't care for wish-fulfillment fantasies is probably that
I've got three out of four already. I don't need much protection.
Michael Kube-McDowell
wrote:
Yes, I know. There was a minor set-to in SFWA at the time, due to the
culture clash. I was just offering a current example.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> The phrase "love her" in the item by Dorothy forgot that
> women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
> *capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
> here) that a woman wants.
That's true only for a very specialized kind of love and kind of women.
If Madame de Rosemond's assumptions were right ("The fact, my dear, is
that women can only take pleasure in the happiness they bestow on
others"), and historically they were for a lot of women for a lot of
time, then her conclusion ("and therefore to exptect to be made happy by
a man is a desperate folly" - quotations here are my translation back
from lines remembered without the text) was also true.
I think the percentage of women who can concieve of a different kind of
happiness is much larger now, and consequently so is the number of the
men that can give them exactly what they want - i.e. love that does not
require complete self-obliteration.
Dorothy J Heydt
Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>On Saturday 02 November 2002 21:49 Brenda W. Clough wrote:
>
>> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
>> female fantasy:
>
>Well, it's certainly not *my* fantasy. I like my men somewhat more
>subtle.
Not mine either, thankyouverymuch.
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Reichert <Mark_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in message news:<H4yJD...@kithrup.com>...
>> Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
>> You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
>> addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
>> in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
>> then he can learn.
>
>Where does one find a woman willing to take on such a task?<g>
I dunno. Where do you find the nice guy who wants to learn?
Me neither, but I hope they find each other.
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
>...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?
I am willing to postulate, for the sake of argument, that
somewhere there is a female who has moods where she wants a harem
of drones. The fact that I have never experienced such a mood in
my sixty years of being female proves nothing.
Dorothy J Heydt
> women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
> *capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
> here) that a woman wants.
The hell you say. I found one, and one is all I need. I have a
strong suspicion there are others.
Captain Button
ObSF: _ Flag in Exile _, Chapter 8, by David Weber.
--
American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Captain Button
"Mark Blunden" <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>John F. Carr wrote:
>
>> (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
>> Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
>
>Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
>lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
You forgot the possibility that they are stories by horses about
lesbians...
Actually, though, most lesbian horses are that way not from true
inclination, but for political reasons.
They only do it to show solidarity against Stallionist Oppression.
Captain Button
>On 2 Nov 2002 21:45:34 GMT, Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote in
>><3DC43B09...@erols.com>:
[ snip ]
>>>Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
>>>relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
>>>or less unobserved.
>>
>> (D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual (twice
>> as many hot guys to drool over!) that their being female basal fantasies
>> passes more or less unobserved. For example, Fushigi Yugi fandom - the
>> anime/manga series stars 1 girl with a whole bunch of cute guys, and lots
>> of the fanfic pairs the cute guys off with each other.
>
> It's been commented that some studies suggest that women *DO*
> fantasize about having two men...
>
> 1) One cooking, and
> 2) One cleaning.
>
> Perhaps additional ones are less commonly listed:
>
> 3) Gardening (mowing, etc)
> 4) Car Repair
> 5) Furniture Re-Arrangement
> 6) Carpentry/Plumbing/Electrical work- General House Repair
>
>
> I haven't figured out what *my* wife keeps me around for :-)
> though I know what's *unlikely* to be on the list.
Terry Pratchett uses something like this in one of the footnotes in _
Faust^H^H^H^H^H Eric _.
Captain Button
"Doom & Gloom Dave" <dwh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:3DC43A6C...@erols.com...
[ snip ]
>> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
>> female fantasy:
>>
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812566653/qid=1036270080/sr=1
>>-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6310362-6775351?v=glance
> Yikes! It's Fabio, and he's back, and in space.
Actually, it just sound like the inverse of that cover of one of Bujold's
Miles Vorkosigan novels. The one I've never seen, with Miles in black
leather and a scantily clad woman at his feet.
[ I have got a copy of _ Brothers in Arms _ that almost fits that
description, but the woman is wearing just as much black leather as he is.
]
Sean O'Hara
>
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
--
Sean O'Hara
"Thanks to these sterling efforts, they’re bringing significantly
closer the day when the entire Middle East, much of Africa and even
Europe will be under the Saddamite nuclear umbrella and thus safe
from Bush’s aggression." -Mark Steyn
Sean O'Hara
>
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> schrieb
> > Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
>
> What is "baseball"?
>
Lots42
alien from another dimension being found by a typical Earth teen. If it wasn't
for the jailbait plotline (the girl was fifteen, he was late twenties) it might
have actually been much better.
I guess this is crude teenager fantasies. (Hunky man takes me away from stupid
parents and stupid school).
It was actually quite interesting. There's this creepy scene where the girl
realizes the traffic lights aren't red anymore...they're blue.
Lots42
-amazon space women fantasies-
>Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?
To store it in memory to play back later when the amazonian space babes are
sleeping.
>But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
>the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
>playing football?
I don't know. I would rather get in there and play.
Sometimes, though, the teams actually have talent and it's exciting to see
someone dance through a wall of attackers and score a touchdown.
--
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public. (Theodore Roosevelt)
Taki Kogoma
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>Actually, it just sound like the inverse of that cover of one of Bujold's
>Miles Vorkosigan novels. The one I've never seen, with Miles in black
>leather and a scantily clad woman at his feet.
I think it's one of the early covers of _The Warrior's Apprentice_
that matches this description...
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
quirk @ swcp.com | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
Lots42
>(D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual (twice
>as many hot guys to drool over!)
I've yet to meet a woman who fantasizes about two guys going at it.
Doesn't make sense to me.
Sexy person plus sexy person should just double the fun
Andrew Wheeler
>
> John F. Carr wrote:
>
> > (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
> > Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
>
> Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
> lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
By lesbians, about horses. Apparently, the "girls love horses" thing
goes double for (some) lesbians. As I recall, there are a lot of stories
about women meeting while riding, or riding together...and so on.
(And that was the "learn something new every day" segment for November
2nd. Tomorrow, another random poster will explain the Schleswig-Holstein Question...)
--
Andrew Wheeler
--
"Oh, hey! We're rehearsing a...a scene for the upcoming company play,
called, ah,....'Put That Thing Back Where It Came From, Or So Help Me!'
It's a musical!"
Captain Button
Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Lots42 <lot...@aol.comaol.com> wrote in <20021102213643.19079.00000016@mb-
>cl.aol.com>:
>
>>>From: Omixochitl Omixoch...@yahoo.com
>>
>>>(D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual (twice
>>>as many hot guys to drool over!)
>>
>>I've yet to meet a woman who fantasizes about two guys going at it.
>
So have I.
>>Doesn't make sense to me.
>
>It's like the way some guys enjoy watching porn actresses have sex with
>each other.
I've always assumed that the underlying idea there is that they are just
making do, and that if a real man were available (like the guy watching
[1]), they'd *both* go for him instead.
[1] By their very nature, fantasies are often unrealistic.
Rick Kleffel
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
..and to continue the time travel thread, there are about 10,000,000
authors/producers/film-makers/TV-series consultants trying to rip off
Ken Grimwood's 'Replay'.
--Rickk
Could you say that again?
Garrett Wollman
Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The explanations I've heard are:
>A) "twice as many hot girls to drool over!"
>B) having a good-looking man in a porno for guys means the guy watching
>riisks having a homo moment; hence porn actresses getting paired up with
>either ugly guys or other women
You missed:
C) most of the pr0n actors are butt ugly and to people who don't have
that particular fetish, no guys is preferable to guys-who-look-like-me
(you can argue it's wish-fulfillment fantasy either way)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | [G]enes make enzymes, and enzymes control the rates of
wol...@lcs.mit.edu | chemical processes. Genes do not make ``novelty-
Opinions not those of| seeking'' or any other complex and overt behavior.
MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002)
dg
news:B9E9EA6E9...@pm3-1-user-24.cvl.hom.net:
> They only do it to show solidarity against Stallionist Oppression.
Groan!
--
DG
- "Keep an open mind, not a blank one."
Mark Atwood
>
> That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
> like inferior louts.
They are exactly as crude, basal, and hormonally driving.
It was a serious stratigic error to permit one set of hormonal drives
to get an exclusive monopoly on the term "civilized", and ghettoize
the other with the term "crude".
They are both equally red blooded and animalistic.
--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Mark Atwood
>
> I've always assumed that the underlying idea there is that they are just
> making do, and that if a real man were available (like the guy watching
In practice, and in better porn, after they wear out the man,
they go back to each other.
ObSF: /XXXenophile/, "The Booker Family Curse", and many many others...
Mark Atwood
>
> I've yet to meet a woman who fantasizes about two guys going at it.
They are not impossibly uncommon, in the right circles
Mark Atwood
> B) having a good-looking man in a porno for guys means the guy watching
> riisks having a homo moment
In the weblog that got read from in "This American Life" a few months
back, the writer notes in the full blog that it's actually a common
and noticable trend for new male customers at her video store to start
by renting the Hot Lezbo Action, a few months later rent stuff with
one or two men in it, then later the stuff that has more than one man
in the same scene (risk of homo moment!), and then later "bi" porn,
and finally start renting the gay porn tapes.
I think that that's a touching and safe way for some men to come out
to themselves that their Kinsey rating might not be so pegged to one
side as they might originally have thought.
Dorothy J Heydt
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>"Mark Blunden" <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>>
>> That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
>> like inferior louts.
>
>They are exactly as crude, basal, and hormonally driving.
>
>It was a serious stratigic error to permit one set of hormonal drives
>to get an exclusive monopoly on the term "civilized", and ghettoize
>the other with the term "crude".
>
>They are both equally red blooded and animalistic.
Quite true. The female strategy is rather more subtle, but it
has to plan further ahead.
Doom & Gloom Dave
"Lots42" <lot...@aol.comaol.com> wrote in message
news:20021102211914...@mb-cl.aol.com...
The first Mode book <shudder>. Unless he revisits that theme in another
work. High points of that one include her recall of getting drunk and more
or less gang-raped and she considered it a learning experience to stay away
from booze. A penchant for cutting her wrists, and a contest/bet with
herself on the line if she loses, money if she wins. One of the last of his
I ever read.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Johnny1A
>
> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
> The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
> Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
> did, does not occur to him.
That varies a bit, even within its limits. A lot of guys, rather than
fantasizing about huge harems, simply wish they were attractive to
women the same way James Bond is supposed to be attractive. Not a
harem so much as any woman he wants, on a no-commitment basis, where
she's into that as much as he is. That last is a very common male
fantasy, women being into the sex for its own sake rather than as part
of a larger relationship.
The large majority of males also know that this would not be as much
fun (at least in unalloyed form) in real life as it is to daydream
about.
The 'harem' fantasy in and of itself does nothing for me, because I
know enough about how the _real_ harems (such as the Ottoman Empire
example) worked to destroy any thought of it being _pleasant_.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
> Captain Button wrote:
>
> >So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
> books fit the bill.
>
> And I've noticed that Cherryh, subconsciously or not, seems to get a kick
> of portraying intimate relationships, consensual or otherwise, between older
> women and young males: Ari1/Justin in _Cyteen_; Mallory/Talley in _Downbelow
> Station_; Morgaine/Vanye in the Morgaine series.
The occasional SF or fantasy story has romantic liasons between an
immortal of either sex and a mortal. I can well imagine that there
would be fascinating aspects to a relationship with someone centuries
older than myself, you could spend a lifetime (a mortal one) just
getting to know her (or him).
OTOH, there are obvious problems, too...
Shermanlee
Scott Robinson
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>Captain Button wrote:
>
>>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>
>>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>>
>>
>>Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>>
>>
>>Possible reasons for the latter:
>>
>>A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>>
>>B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
>>them.
>>
>>C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
>>but it doesn't get published.
>>
>
>
>Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
>relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
>or less unobserved.
>
>It cannot be a coincidence, all those good-looking, sensitive,
>competent, caring male heroes in female authors' books.
>
>
>Brenda <profound weakness for male heroes, herself>
Ever notice the lack of a complement for "men with tits". I think it
wasn't until _Druids_ by Morgan Llynelyn that I found a completely
bogus male (not apparently deliberately effeminate). I'm sure this a
part of this.
On the other hand, I wonder if Katherine Kurtz's female fans
appreciate her carefully protecting Kelson's virtue (other male
charecters follow the rule, even the priests).
Or how about (E clarification of B/C) there is a whole section of the
bookstore that sells this under "Romance fiction". Anything in the
SF/F section is crossover.
Scott
Mornir
<dsc...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
<snip stuff on female heros and fantasies>
>On the other hand, I wonder if Katherine Kurtz's female fans
>appreciate her carefully protecting Kelson's virtue (other male
>charecters follow the rule, even the priests).
Oh, I'm sure it exists; I don't think it's published often,
though. I know a *lot* of women who write fanfic on various heros in
games, books, etc, and they /love/ yaoi fiction. Whether or not it's
as 'blatant' or 'basal' as male is open to question, but it's
definitely there. If you listen to women talking, honestly, they
sound as 'basal' or 'crude' as men. Or perhaps I simply know strange
women. :>
At any rate, I think that the most likely option is, as I
mentioned above, the fact that much of it simply doesn't get
published. It's a sign of the industry, or perhaps merely who's in
charge of it.
--
<Mornir - mor...@despammed.com - http://www.livejournal.com/~booklog/>
Robert Carnegie
Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> writes
>> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
>> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
>> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
>> The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
>> Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
>> did, does not occur to him.
>
>form of wish-fulfillment) has a certain sense of irony.
I haven't read _Ethan of Athos_, but it's been described before,
and /not/ as basically _Confessions of a Spacewoman_ :-)
Incidentally, _Y The Last Man_ is currently running in comics, with
the implausible premises that (1) something kills every male
mammal on Earth in a very short time (2) except for a guy in
maybe his twenties and his pet monkey (3) who happens to be
the son of the President of the United States...that is, the /new/
President of the United States; she was way down the succession
but in front was all either guys, or women who were in planes or
cars piloted or traffic-controlled by guys when the Thing hit.
I suppose the design of the story both allows comicbook readers
to identify with a guy who /has/ a girlfriend /and/ doesn't have
responsibilities, and also gets our viewpoint guy into the White
House /and/ out again. Anyone in charge /but/ the guy's mom
would have him staple-gunned onto the Oval Office desk -
no, I'm wrong? :-)
If I keep reading that title, I anticipate they're going to show me a
picture of a freezer full of testicles. But if that kind of thing scared
me then I wouldn't read Warren Ellis's comics.
Otherwise, the portrayal seems to be that where each society
already accommodated women in political or professional roles,
the survivors have stepped up to fill these roles in the structure of
their existing society before considering what to do next, with
commendable lack of fuss considering half the human race got
tossed. It mostly remains to be seen (as of my last visit to the
store for the series - although Israel and its neighbours were on
the horizon) how other nations handled things. One might guess
that countries where part or all of the Establishment was barred to
women would have to reinvent themselves a lot at this point.
Anyway, a year or two ago, they also did a comicbook where this
happened, but with superheroes. So all the superhero names
and costumes were taken over by women.../except/ for Superman
and Lex Luthor. Sorry.
Now _Castle Waiting_ is a female fantasy comicbook. A bunch of
creatures from different fairy-tales get together and play at house.
Well, that's _young_ female fantasy. There's a mixture of female
characters and non-threatening males. The title also digressed
into several months of "Bearded Nuns In Love" (but not with each
other in most cases).
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
--
"At Camberwell magistrates' court last Tuesday, two women convicted of
running a brothel at Tooting Bec were each ordered to do 200 hours'
service to the community." - Evening Standard
Robert Carnegie
bedfellow.mit.edu>, John F. Carr <j...@mit.edu> writes
>(One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
>Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
That would catch anyone's eye.
I suppose the thinking is: young women like horses and ponies.
Everyone likes stories about lesbians. Put 'em in one book and
it'll sell. See also, oh damn, I have forgotten the name* of the sour
secretly womanising English poet who turns out to have written
some rather torrid girls' boarding school stories which have
recently been published. A portion quoted referred to horseriding,
not in any funny way but still as an exciting and vivid experience. I
hope that once I have slept on the question my brain will stop
trying to tell me that the author (who also exchanged letters of
misanthropic sympathy with Kingsley Amis) was Philip Pullman!
Or it's not what it says it is. Maybe it's the tale of a bookshop
owner's descent into madness until they start hallucinating titles...
If you didn't order it, I suppose we try Amazon.com ? (Apposite.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Incidentally, _Y The Last Man_ is currently running in comics, with
>the implausible premises that (1) something kills every male
>mammal on Earth in a very short time (2) except for a guy in
>maybe his twenties and his pet monkey (3) who happens to be
>the son of the President of the United States...
Wait a minute. The son of the President of the United States is
a pet monkey?
Oh, heck, we've got that now.
Jack Love
<darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>"Karl M. Syring" wrote:
>>
>> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> schrieb
>> > Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
>>
>> What is "baseball"?
>>
>A slightly more comprehensible version of Cricket.
One of my favorite memories: during a visit to Hong Kong with friends
we read the sports page out loud including the stirring description of
a cricket match. It was a hilariously zen moment, clearly we had done
sports but not a word other than articles and connectives made sense.
Andrew Maizels
> On Saturday 02 November 2002 21:49 Brenda W. Clough wrote:
>
>
>>Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
>>female fantasy:
>
>
> Well, it's certainly not *my* fantasy. I like my men somewhat more
> subtle.
Perhaps having enough mental capacity to remember where the shirts are kept?
Andrew.
--
Google fthagn! Google fthagn! Ia Google! Ia! Ia!
Thomas
> I've always assumed that the underlying idea there is that they are just
> making do, and that if a real man were available (like the guy watching
> [1]), they'd *both* go for him instead.
Well. Certainly the porn industry belives that is why guys like the
idea and portrayal of lesbians. Personally i think they're wrong.
Other reasons guys like lesbian porn:
1: No butt-ugly male pornstars.
2: The existance of lesbians proves that females do genuinely
dig sex. (the fact that pornstars are in it for the money
is ignored here.)
3: More eyecandy.
But generally I'd say that what gets produced by the porn
industry is a piss-poor indication of what the public actually
wants to watch, because it mainly gets produced by people
with a sincerely fucked up relationship to sex, and there is
almost no market feedback.
The lack of any popular and reliable reviewers and the total
lack of word-of-mouth means that bad porn sells about as well
as good porn.
This is why playboy makes so much money. They've managed to
create a "brand" that says "well-produced and relatively
wholesome porn"
Thomas: Who as a teen discovered that most porn is, well,
somewhat nausuating.
Jim Battista
news:92BAE1121...@news.cis.dfn.de:
> The explanations I've heard are:
> A) "twice as many hot girls to drool over!"
> B) having a good-looking man in a porno for guys means the guy
> watching riisks having a homo moment; hence porn actresses getting
> paired up with either ugly guys or other women
There's a close relative of B, which is that for at least one menfolk,
a dude with a ginormous stiffy isn't sexy, he's threatening. I don't
know where he intends to put that thing, after all.
Jim, thinking of Frank DeCaro reviewing Zorro... the pointy end goes in
the other fellow...
--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
Htn963
>[Htn963 wrote]:
<snip>
>> And I've noticed that Cherryh, subconsciously or not, seems to get a
>kick
>> of portraying intimate relationships, consensual or otherwise, between
>older
>> women and young males: Ari1/Justin in _Cyteen_; Mallory/Talley in
>_Downbelow
>> Station_; Morgaine/Vanye in the Morgaine series.
>
>The occasional SF or fantasy story has romantic liasons between an
>immortal of either sex and a mortal.
Sure, Morgaine is analogous to the ageless elven chick in high fantasy
lore hooking up with our young human hero. (Obvious ref: LOTR; also see the rpg
game Baldur's Gate 2, where _all_ the romance options for a male character are
of elven heritage.) Now I dig Morgaine/Vanye but can't help but see a pattern
with Cherryh's other darker portrayals of experienced (and usually dominant)
older woman vis a vis young naive male. If there is some Mary Sueism going
on, then I hope there is more of Morgaine and less of Ari I in the author.
>I can well imagine that there
>would be fascinating aspects to a relationship with someone centuries
>older than myself, you could spend a lifetime (a mortal one) just
>getting to know her (or him).
Or the mortal can also be made immortal through the union, like Vanye, and
would now have all the time in the world.
>OTOH, there are obvious problems, too...
A big one would be putting up with snotty in-laws who shuns mortality as
low-class.
Hmm, speaking of which, does anyone know of any noteworthy books, comedic
or otherwise, that details problems and hijinks attendant on a marriage between
an immortal and a mortal?
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
J Greely
> 3: More eyecandy.
I've always suspected that for many it's
4: Homophobia
Straight porn does have a strong tendency to feature close-ups of male
anatomy, to the point where you might have to watch for a full minute
to be sure that his partner is a woman. And you might never find out
if she's attractive and/or has a nice body. [this gets truer every
year, sad to say]
A girl-girl scene reassures the viewer that it's safe to admire all of
the body parts that appear, an important consideration for someone who
is... "nervous" about male homosexuality.
>But generally I'd say that what gets produced by the porn
>industry is a piss-poor indication of what the public actually
>wants to watch,
The *general* public? Definitely. Their target market? No, I think
they've got it pretty well nailed down.
>because it mainly gets produced by people with a sincerely fucked up
>relationship to sex,
Oddly enough, that's exactly what they think about you. :-)
-j
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <1fl1ndx.ln3opy1rrt67sN%ada...@spamcop.net>,
> Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >
> >> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> >> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> >> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> >> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> >> stay with her for life.
> >
> >...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?
>
> I am willing to postulate, for the sake of argument, that
> somewhere there is a female who has moods where she wants a harem
> of drones.
You needen't postulate. I just said I am one.
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Robert Carnegie
>I hope that once I have slept on the question my brain will stop
>trying to tell me that the author (who also exchanged letters of
>misanthropic sympathy with Kingsley Amis) was Philip Pullman!
/Larkin./ Philip Larkin.
Not purely brain recovery, but a radio programme in today's guide
alludes to a work of his: _Church Going_, a deliberate pun
alluding to the population of England largely abandoning
Christianity.
He's been dead for some years, btw. Of course I did remember
that his name /wasn't/ Philip Pullman. I just couldn't remember
what it was, and whenever I tried "Pullman" kept coming up.
Stupid brain.
Karl M. Syring
> Mark Blunden wrote:
> >
> > John F. Carr wrote:
> >
> > > (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
> > > Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
> >
by
> > lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
>
> By lesbians, about horses. Apparently, the "girls love horses" thing
> goes double for (some) lesbians. As I recall, there are a lot of
stories
> about women meeting while riding, or riding together...and so on.
This is a completely unfounded slur. There are no lesbian horse girls.
> (And that was the "learn something new every day" segment for November
> 2nd. Tomorrow, another random poster will explain the
Schleswig-Holstein Question...)
I could tell you something about the owner of a bookstore for women, but
I want.
Karl M. Syring
Jeanette
David Cowie <david_co...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.11.02....@lineone.net...
> On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 21:44:14 +0100, Karl M. Syring wrote:
>
> > "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> schrieb
> >> Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
> >
> > What is "baseball"?
> >
> track. Popular in USA.
>
Also known as rounders and played by schoolgirls in the UK.
Jeanette
Mark Blunden
> Captain Button <but...@io.com> wrote in <B9E9FFF9966895D79C@pm3-1-user
> -24.cvl.hom.net>:
>
>> In article <92BAD9700...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>> Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Lots42 <lot...@aol.comaol.com> wrote in
>>> <20021102213643.19079.00000016@mb- cl.aol.com>:
>>>
>>>>> From: Omixochitl Omixoch...@yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>> (D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual
>>>>> (twice as many hot guys to drool over!)
>>>>
>>>> I've yet to meet a woman who fantasizes about two guys going at it.
>>>
>>
>> So have I.
>>
>>>> Doesn't make sense to me.
>>>
>>> It's like the way some guys enjoy watching porn actresses have sex
>>> with each other.
>>
>> I've always assumed that the underlying idea there is that they are
>> just making do, and that if a real man were available (like the guy
>> watching [1]), they'd *both* go for him instead.
>
> A) "twice as many hot girls to drool over!"
> B) having a good-looking man in a porno for guys means the guy
> watching riisks having a homo moment; hence porn actresses getting
> paired up with either ugly guys or other women
>
Or it could be fear of competition - lack of attractive male participant
means less to compare themselves to.
--
Mark.
* Our troops will impregnate your dairy animals, and laugh at your
human dress sense!
John F. Carr
Andrew Wheeler <acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:
>Mark Blunden wrote:
>>
>> John F. Carr wrote:
>>
>> > (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
>> > Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
>>
>> Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
>> lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
>
>By lesbians, about horses. Apparently, the "girls love horses" thing
>goes double for (some) lesbians. As I recall, there are a lot of stories
>about women meeting while riding, or riding together...and so on.
That reminds me to ask:
Is _Apocalypse_ by Nancy Springer any good? I gave up after a few
dozen pages. It takes more than lesbian horse riders who have bad
relationships with men to hold my interest. (I suppose I should
qualify the question with "...for a heterosexual male". I am
currently awaiting a judgement from the non-heterosexual non-male
to whom I pointed it out.)
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
Dan Swartzendruber
> lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
> >
> > I've yet to meet a woman who fantasizes about two guys going at it.
>
> They are not impossibly uncommon, in the right circles
Well, sure. Humans have an extremely wide range of behaviors and
drives. From everything I've heard and read it's quite a bit less
common than the man fantasizing about two women going at it.
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:47:42 -0500, but...@io.com (Captain Button)
wrote:
>In article <aq1bn0$5nous$2...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,
>"Mark Blunden" <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>John F. Carr wrote:
>>
>>> (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of
>>> Lesbian Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey
>>> collaboration.)
>>
>>Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written
>>by lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.
>
>You forgot the possibility that they are stories by horses about
>lesbians...
>
>
>Actually, though, most lesbian horses are that way not from true
>inclination, but for political reasons.
>
>They only do it to show solidarity against Stallionist Oppression.
<Groan> That pun is so bad that I will have to remember to tell it to
my co-workers. :)
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--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com, eldr...@earthlink.net
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
James Nicoll
Garrett Wollman <wol...@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <92BAE1121...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>The explanations I've heard are:
>>A) "twice as many hot girls to drool over!"
>>B) having a good-looking man in a porno for guys means the guy watching
>>riisks having a homo moment; hence porn actresses getting paired up with
>>either ugly guys or other women
>
>
>C) most of the pr0n actors are butt ugly and to people who don't have
>that particular fetish, no guys is preferable to guys-who-look-like-me
>(you can argue it's wish-fulfillment fantasy either way)
There's also what I like to call the Paul Kuperberg Factor:
Kuperberg was never very good at writing comics but he never missed
a deadline and he got lots of work. A male porn actor who can rise
to the occasion at will may use that ability to overcome other
drawbacks.
--
"Repress the urge to sprout wings or self-ignite!...This man's an
Episcopalian!...They have definite views."
Pibgorn Oct 31/02
scott_sanford
John F. Carr <j...@mit.edu> wrote:
>Is _Apocalypse_ by Nancy Springer any good? I gave up after a few
>dozen pages. It takes more than lesbian horse riders who have bad
>relationships with men to hold my interest. (I suppose I should
>qualify the question with "...for a heterosexual male". I am
>currently awaiting a judgement from the non-heterosexual non-male
>to whom I pointed it out.)
If you ever go back in time a few years, please drop me a line and tell
me that the book is not as interesting as the cover looks. I will thereby
be spared reading it myself.
I was disappointed; the premise showed promise. Feh.
--
Scott Sanford <*> <*> <*> Antibot addresss: wyvern at agora dot rdrop dot com
GO/U h++ s++:+ g+ a- w++ v+/*/? C++ UB+/++ N++ K? !W M--(++) 5++ r+++ b+++ f?
Anime fans! Ask me about NOVA, the Northern Oregon & Vancouver Anime Society!
John R. Campbell
The problem all too often is tied up in ego; A male is likely
to fantasize about two women going at it, but he's going to
want them both to be bi-sexual and willing to include him in
their activities.
It's been stated that the baseline drive in the male seems to
be optimized for "broadcast" reproduction- which reduces the
male's investment in any one of potential offspring so it'd
be a matter of chance whether any of them would be successful-
though success in evolutionary terms merely implies an ability
to reproduce the genes in the next generation.
For females, however, baseline drives would appear towards a
monogamous structure; Since a female can have far fewer children
than a broadcasting male, her offspring's success rate goes up
if both parents can invest more time and attention. From my
POV I'd be anxious about possible cuckolding since often an
"alpha male" could perhaps insert his children into my workload,
allowing him to continue to broadcast while getting other males
to care for someone else's offspring.
(I lean towards the "selfish gene" theory, BTW.)
It could be posited that gene-linked traits are evolutionary
in nature: A female's excellent color vision improves their
ability as gatherers to identify foods as safe and recognize
(and discard) poisons, while a male's better black-and-white
vision provides better ability to hunt nocturnal animals.
In terms of cognition, females needed to be able to evaluate
a mate's likelihood of being a competent father, so some
pro-active thinking became a desirable trait. As hunters, all
a male has to do is (drum roll, please:) think like an animal. :-)
--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines so...@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
"It is impossible for ANY man to learn about impotence the hard way." - me
"ZIF is not a desirable trait when selecting a spouse." - me
David M. Palmer
> By lesbians, about horses. Apparently, the "girls love horses" thing
> goes double for (some) lesbians. As I recall, there are a lot of stories
> about women meeting while riding, or riding together...and so on.
>
> (And that was the "learn something new every day" segment for November
> 2nd. Tomorrow, another random poster will explain the Schleswig-Holstein Question...)
Well I know there are lots of websites about girls loving horses, but I
haven't seen any pictures of somebody schleswigging a holstein. The
horses vs. cows thing seems to be less contentious than cats vs. dogs.
--
David M. Palmer dmpa...@email.com (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
wamccabe
"Captain Button" <but...@io.com> wrote in message
news:B9E948249...@0.0.0.0...
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>
> Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>
>
> Possible reasons for the latter:
>
> A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>
> B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
> them.
>
> C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about
them,
> but it doesn't get published.
>
>
As I understand it most slash fiction is written by women for women. We're
not just talking about the equivalent of "bodice rippers" some of this is
hardcore porn.
>
>
> --
> American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
> Captain Button - but...@io.com
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