Why so few creative aliens?
il...@rcn.com
"ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
creativity and innovation a sin!
Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
Michael S. Schiffer
news:25aae88f-96f6-4319...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c
om:
Oftentimes, the aliens are adversaries, so if they're more advanced
than humans than making them slow-thinking helps keep things
balanced. (More primitive aliens sometimes are quicker to innovate
than humans: Poul Anderson's "Turning Point", Vinge's "Original
Sin".) There's also the legacy of Campbell's "humans may not be the
most advanced species in the galaxy, but we've got a special
something" which is often flexibility and willingness to innovate.
(How else are we going to rule the sevagram? :-) )
It's also tough to portray good aliens and tough to portray plausible
innovations, so combining the two is that much tougher.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Gene Ward Smith
> Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
> "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
> think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
> renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
> creativity and innovation a sin!
The Tnuctipun seemed to have no such problems; their only problem was
that they ran into the Slavers, but they dealt with it ingeniously.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<25aae88f-96f6-4319...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
il...@rcn.com writes
>Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
>"ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
>think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
>renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
>creativity and innovation a sin!
I don't think it's accurate to state that Moties consider creativity and
innovation a sin - if you're thinking about Crazy Eddie, that's in
respect to misplaced creativity and innovation.
>
>Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Wayne Throop
:: "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I
:: can think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation
:: which renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
:: creativity and innovation a sin!
: Gene Ward Smith <genewa...@gmail.com>
: The Tnuctipun seemed to have no such problems; their only problem was
: that they ran into the Slavers, but they dealt with it ingeniously.
There's the Calongi, from the consortium-verse, who may be conservative
and hence arguably not "innovative", are nevertheless so much smarter
than humans, and so much more physically and mentally adaptable, that
humans just barely make their scale of "intelligent critters".
And as before when I brought up the Calongi, this reminds me of
the Arisians. Are they "innovative", or "ingenious"?
There's the ... um, whatziz, from Forwards Dragon's Egg books. They
are wildly more innovative than humans... though most of that is just
that they have so much more subjective *time* than humans, between any
two given events.
"Are you in, genius?" --- Bugs Bunny to Wile E. Coyote
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Gene Ward Smith
> There's the Calongi, from the consortium-verse, who may be conservative
> and hence arguably not "innovative", are nevertheless so much smarter
> than humans, and so much more physically and mentally adaptable, that
> humans just barely make their scale of "intelligent critters".
A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
demonstrated in Known Space.)
> There's the ... um, whatziz, from Forwards Dragon's Egg books. They
> are wildly more innovative than humans... though most of that is just
> that they have so much more subjective *time* than humans, between any
> two given events.
Forward's mathematical blobs are allegedly super-intelligent (again,
not convincingly demonstrated) but very narrow in focus--most of them
are only interested in math and surfing.
James Nicoll
Gene Ward Smith <genewa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 28, 12:16 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>
>> There's the Calongi, from the consortium-verse, who may be conservative
>> and hence arguably not "innovative", are nevertheless so much smarter
>> than humans, and so much more physically and mentally adaptable, that
>> humans just barely make their scale of "intelligent critters".
>
>A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
>them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
>demonstrated in Known Space.)
>
advanced, although we can't tell how innovative Outsiders are.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
P. Taine
"The Helping Hand", Poul Anderson, Astounding May 1950.
Interesting, in that it uphold and undercuts Campbell at the same time.
Humans interven in a war between two sets of aliens. One set accepts human aid,
a la a "welfare state", and sink into dependance. The others refuse any aid,
and wind up developing tech better than the humans.
So, Campbell's dislike of any sort of "coddling" is upheld, but his dicta
against superior aliens is flouted.
P. Taine
Catherine Jefferson
It's *very* difficult to write believably about aliens. It's also
difficult to create creative and ingenious characters even if they're
human. Add the two together, and.... You get the idea.
--
Catherine (Hampton) Jefferson <ar...@spambouncer.org>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
Personal Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
Jon Schild
Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> On Nov 28, 12:16 pm, thro...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) wrote:
>
>
>>There's the Calongi, from the consortium-verse, who may be conservative
>>and hence arguably not "innovative", are nevertheless so much smarter
>>than humans, and so much more physically and mentally adaptable, that
>>humans just barely make their scale of "intelligent critters".
>
>
> A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
> them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
> demonstrated in Known Space.)
I don't know about that. They invented the indestructable transparent
spaceship hull, for instance.
--
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-- Galileo Galilei
David DeLaney
>Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>> A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
>> them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
>> demonstrated in Known Space.)
>
>I don't know about that. They invented the indestructable transparent
>spaceship hull, for instance.
Mmm... they may have reverse-engineered it from a smallest-size one discovered
in a stasis box, after all (ditto stepping discs). Or bought it from the
Outsiders; I don't think any of the humans in Niven's books ever thought to
ask the Outsiders about -that-, thinking back.
I'll agree with the 'not convincingly'; they're a -different- psychology from
humans', though.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
James Nicoll
David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:00:50 -0800, Jon Schild <j...@xmission.com> wrote:
>>Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>>> A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
>>> them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
>>> demonstrated in Known Space.)
>>
>>I don't know about that. They invented the indestructable transparent
>>spaceship hull, for instance.
>
>Mmm... they may have reverse-engineered it from a smallest-size one discovered
>in a stasis box, after all (ditto stepping discs). Or bought it from the
>Outsiders; I don't think any of the humans in Niven's books ever thought to
>ask the Outsiders about -that-, thinking back.
>
Suddenly I am curious what model of IP rights the Outsiders
use. I bet their pricing assumes that they get to sell a particular
idea once in a given region of the Milky Way.
Of course, you can pack about twenty million regions with
as many stars as Known Space into the arms of the galaxy.
Hallvard B Furuseth
> Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>> A less extreme example would be the Puppeteers, at least if we take
>> them at their own estimate of intelligence (not convincingly
>> demonstrated in Known Space.)
>
> I don't know about that. They invented the indestructable transparent
> spaceship hull, for instance.
And given enough million years of civilization (which IIRC they have
had), so might we.
--
Hallvard
Sea Wasp
The more creativity and ingenuity you give your aliens, the less is
available for your humans, generally the protagonists, which means
things will end poorly for Our Heroes. Yes, theoretically each has an
entire planet's worth of creativity to draw upon (or more), but in
actuality they're all limited to the total amount of innovation the
singular author can come up with.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Howard Brazee
Some of it may be the Campbell like desire to have Humans be the
innovative species.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>"The Helping Hand", Poul Anderson, Astounding May 1950.
>
>Interesting, in that it uphold and undercuts Campbell at the same time.
>
>Humans interven in a war between two sets of aliens. One set accepts human aid,
>a la a "welfare state", and sink into dependance. The others refuse any aid,
>and wind up developing tech better than the humans.
>
>So, Campbell's dislike of any sort of "coddling" is upheld, but his dicta
>against superior aliens is flouted.
But this story wasn't a technological statement - it was a political
statement.
il...@rcn.com
> use. I bet their pricing assumes that they get to sell a particular
> idea once in a given region of the Milky Way.
The few cases where prices Outsiders charge were actually mentioned,
suggest that you are right.
> Of course, you can pack about twenty million regions with
> as many stars as Known Space into the arms of the galaxy.
> --http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicollhttp://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll(For all your "The problem with
il...@rcn.com
Moties regard ANY attempt to break the Cycles as "misdirected".
Whether it actually is or not.
P. Taine
Yes, of course. But there WERE creative aliens in it.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>>But this story wasn't a technological statement - it was a political
>>statement.
>
>Yes, of course. But there WERE creative aliens in it.
There were - but they were playing the parts of humans, thinly
disguised.
David Johnston
Read some Alan Dean Foster novels. He's had a lot of aliens who were
more creative and ingenious than humanity.
David Johnston
wrote:
>:: Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
>:: "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I
>:: can think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation
>:: which renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
>:: creativity and innovation a sin!
>
>: Gene Ward Smith <genewa...@gmail.com>
>: The Tnuctipun seemed to have no such problems; their only problem was
>: that they ran into the Slavers, but they dealt with it ingeniously.
>
>There's the Calongi, from the consortium-verse, who may be conservative
>and hence arguably not "innovative", are nevertheless so much smarter
>than humans, and so much more physically and mentally adaptable, that
>humans just barely make their scale of "intelligent critters".
>
>And as before when I brought up the Calongi, this reminds me of
>the Arisians. Are they "innovative", or "ingenious"?
Yes. However they do run into the problem of already knowing almost
everything in the universe.
il...@rcn.com
> more creative and ingenious than humanity.
I read "Nor the Crystal Tears" and "Bloodhype". That turned me off ADF
-- probably permanently.
Wayne Throop
: Yes, I was thinking about Crazy Eddie -- but my impression was that
: Moties regard ANY attempt to break the Cycles as "misdirected".
: Whether it actually is or not.
Yes, but that's not prejudice against innovation. Merely any
activity (innovative or not) predicated on the assumption that
the cycles can be broken.
Luna
<25aae88f-96f6-4319...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
il...@rcn.com wrote:
I'd say Pohl's Heechee were pretty damn creative and ingenious. And the
several different species in his _O Pioneer!_ had cultures as rich as
our own.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<lunachick-070B1...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, Luna
<luna...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> writes
Hokas are creative and innovative (in a derivative sort of way)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Anthony Nance
> Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
> "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
> think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
> renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
> creativity and innovation a sin!
>
> Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
How are you defining innovative and ingenious? Do you mean
individual characterizations? Or explicit scenes showing
such things? Or...?
I'm thinking that in many (not all) stories of wars/armed
conflict, the sides have to be somewhat even for it not to
be boring, which indicates similar levels of innovation and
ingenuity for technology, tactics, etc. I understand that
the good guys just about always win, and that the good guys
are just about always plucky humans, but I don't think that
precludes "the other side" their due as worthy opposition.
Beyond that, depending on your definitions:
- Clement's Mesklinites
- Vinge's Tines, maybe Vinge's Spiders too
- Herbert's Bene Tleilaxu (although seldom, if ever, explicitly
shown as such)
Tony
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<na...@math.ohio-state.edu> writes
>
>- Herbert's Bene Tleilaxu (although seldom, if ever, explicitly
> shown as such)
>
the norm that Guildsmen.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Anthony Nance
You know, I think you're right - thanks.
- Tony
David Johnston
Very possibly. But you will find examples of aliens who are far, far
more creative and ingenious than humanity in Sentenced to Prism and
Orphan Star.
il...@rcn.com
> individual characterizations? Or explicit scenes showing
> such things? Or...?
Explicit scenes. A creature may be described (or self-described) as
ingenious, but without a demonstration such claim is not worth much.
> I'm thinking that in many (not all) stories of wars/armed
> conflict, the sides have to be somewhat even for it not to
> be boring, which indicates similar levels of innovation and
> ingenuity for technology, tactics, etc. I understand that
> the good guys just about always win, and that the good guys
> are just about always plucky humans, but I don't think that
> precludes "the other side" their due as worthy opposition.
True. But then, "backward, but plucky and adaptable humans running
rings around technologically superior but stogy and unimaginative
aliens" is the plot I am sick to death of. I am not a fan of "sunny
books".
> Beyond that, depending on your definitions:
> - Clement's Mesklinites
About as imaginative as humans, I would say.
> - Vinge's Tines, maybe Vinge's Spiders too
Same for Tines. I do not remember Spiders -- were they in "Fire Upon
the Deep"?
> - Herbert's Bene Tleilaxu (although seldom, if ever, explicitly
> shown as such)
I read about half of first "Dune" book and lost interest.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<fc8ed706-82f6-481c...@o42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
il...@rcn.com writes
>> How are you defining innovative and ingenious? Do you mean
>> individual characterizations? Or explicit scenes showing
>> such things? Or...?
>
>Explicit scenes. A creature may be described (or self-described) as
>ingenious, but without a demonstration such claim is not worth much.
>
>> I'm thinking that in many (not all) stories of wars/armed
>> conflict, the sides have to be somewhat even for it not to
>> be boring, which indicates similar levels of innovation and
>> ingenuity for technology, tactics, etc. I understand that
>> the good guys just about always win, and that the good guys
>> are just about always plucky humans, but I don't think that
>> precludes "the other side" their due as worthy opposition.
>
>True. But then, "backward, but plucky and adaptable humans running
>rings around technologically superior but stogy and unimaginative
>aliens" is the plot I am sick to death of. I am not a fan of "sunny
>books".
>
>> Beyond that, depending on your definitions:
>> - Clement's Mesklinites
>
>About as imaginative as humans, I would say.
>
>> - Vinge's Tines, maybe Vinge's Spiders too
>
>Same for Tines. I do not remember Spiders -- were they in "Fire Upon
>the Deep"?
"A Deepness in the Sky".
>
>> - Herbert's Bene Tleilaxu (although seldom, if ever, explicitly
>> shown as such)
>
>I read about half of first "Dune" book and lost interest.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Wayne Throop
:: ADF -- probably permanently.
: David Johnston <da...@block.net>
: Very possibly. But you will find examples of aliens who are far, far
: more creative and ingenious than humanity in Sentenced to Prism and
: Orphan Star.
For that matter, in Bloodhype, Flinx's spacecraft is a product
of a non-human species far more intelligent and innovative than humans.
In fact, they whipped him up his spaceship in a stunningly short time,
creating it pretty much from scratch, and far more capable than
any human spacecraft, and not having had the concept of
a "spaceship" before then.
Of course... these facts aren't mentioned in Bloodhype,
but in another of the Flinx books.
Wayne Throop
: But then, "backward, but plucky and adaptable humans running
: rings around technologically superior but stogy and unimaginative
: aliens" is the plot I am sick to death of.
Well, "ignorant and savage humans are grudgingly tolerated by the more
intelligent, advanced, and cvilized species, and are (quite rightly)
second class citizens" isn't all that rare. Of course, those that *might*
seem to be one of those often aren't, like the upliftiverse.
But you've got Niven's Dracos' Tavern, and Franklin's Consortium
that spring to mind. In the janikillianverse, humans get much of
their IP infrastructure from aliens, and the aliens are at something
of an advantage to humans (though hybrids are better still, maybe)
I'm sure there are more; can anybody list some more? Conceivably the
old-man's-war-iverse. Conceivably the legacy-of-the-al-dente-verse
(though that one has some of the same countervaling properties as the
upliftiverse, I suppose). Hrm, Night Train to Rigel, maybe?
Quadibloc
> Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
No, but usually the creativity and ingenuity of the aliens is in the
past, outside the story - they arrive in their advanced spaceships -
while what humans do is in the story.
After all, SF stories are sold to human readers.
John Savard
il...@rcn.com
>
> No, but usually the creativity and ingenuity of the aliens is in the
> past, outside the story - they arrive in their advanced spaceships -
Of course, then you do not know how long it took them to get these
advanced spaceships. Someone not very creative -- or not even very
smart by any standard, -- could achieve a lot after 100,000 years of
steady plodding.
Alexey Romanov
And vice versa as well. There was a story (likely in Russian) of an alien
fleet arriving to subjugate Earth. Humans soon find out the alien commander
has a noble title, so quite a few believe the aliens are of the kind you
mention above. Close to the end of the story we find out his
greatgrandfather (or something like that; a recent enough ancestor, anyway)
was ennobled for discovering fire. Oh, and average civilization exists
about 800 years before transcending.
--
Alexey Romanov
Matt Browne SFW
> Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
> "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
> think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
> renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
> creativity and innovation a sin!
>
Here's a quote by Joan Didion that goes in a somewhat different
direction:
"The fancy that extraterrestrial life is by definition of a higher
order than our own is one that soothes all children, and many
writers."
--
Matt Browne
My webpage is at http://www.meet-matt-browne.com
"As a race, we survive on planet Earth purely by geological consent."
Bill McGuire
ronincats
> Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
> "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
> think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
> renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
> creativity and innovation a sin!
>
> Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
I particularly enjoy three authors who were very creative and
ingenious in creating their aliens, and constructed a whole flotilla
of them. The first group, in Brin's Uplift Universe (I only consider
the first 3 books) include the Tymbrimi, who dominate _The Uplift
War_,one of my favorite books. At least two of them do, and you would
certainly have to include Uthacalthing in any group of ingenious and
creative aliens!! Cherryh's Chanur novels take place on the fringe of
the Alliance-Union universe and have a cast of 6 alien species with
very definitive characteristics-I think the Hani are very ingenious
and well-developed, although you may argue that that is because they
are the most human-like. And on the fun side of it, James White's
Sector General books have a very creative array of aliens, and I dare
anyone to say that Gurronsevas, for example, is not creative and
ingenious!
Rhonda
Splicer
> Here's a quote by Joan Didion that goes in a somewhat different
> direction:
>
> "The fancy that extraterrestrial life is by definition of a higher
> order than our own is one that soothes all children, and many
> writers."
>
Since we really don't know of any extraterrestrial life (aside from claims
of fossilized Martian bacteria), I think writers are free to come up with
any damned thing they want. If they want their aliens to have four limbs
or six or eight or none, so be it. If they want them highly evolved or
technologically superior (or not), so be it. Honestly, as far as enjoyment
of SF goes, I don't really give a damn. Does it hold my interest and does
it further the story - if it does, good.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<d1c41cd1-5acb-4ea0...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
ronincats <croch...@cox.net> writes
>On Nov 28, 11:40 am, il...@rcn.com wrote:
>> Why so few SF aliens possess qualities we call "innovative" and
>> "ingenious"? Not only they are rare as hen's teeth, but the few I can
>> think of (Moties, Pak, Jotoki) all have some built-in limitation which
>> renders ingenuity mostly useless. Moties, in effect, consider
>> creativity and innovation a sin!
>>
>> Is it so difficult to write about creative and ingenious aliens?
>
>I particularly enjoy three authors who were very creative and
>ingenious in creating their aliens, and constructed a whole flotilla
>of them. The first group, in Brin's Uplift Universe (I only consider
>the first 3 books) include the Tymbrimi, who dominate _The Uplift
>War_,one of my favorite books. At least two of them do, and you would
>certainly have to include Uthacalthing in any group of ingenious and
>creative aliens!! Cherryh's Chanur novels take place on the fringe of
>the Alliance-Union universe and have a cast of 6 alien species with
>very definitive characteristics-I think the Hani are very ingenious
>and well-developed, although you may argue that that is because they
>are the most human-like. And on the fun side of it, James White's
It's the mahen I find difficult to distinguish from humans.
>Sector General books have a very creative array of aliens, and I dare
>anyone to say that Gurronsevas, for example, is not creative and
>ingenious!
>
>Rhonda
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Alexey Romanov
*whispering* Gurronsevas is not creative and... AARGH!
--
Alexey Romanov
sw
> available for your humans, generally the protagonists, which means
> things will end poorly for Our Heroes. Yes, theoretically each has an
> entire planet's worth of creativity to draw upon (or more), but in
> actuality they're all limited to the total amount of innovation the
> singular author can come up with.
Sort of like a SCIENCE application of the Law of Conservation of
Ninjutsu?
--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of
scholars remain for an eternity." - Ulughbek
David Johnston
wrote:
>:: I read "Nor the Crystal Tears" and "Bloodhype". That turned me off
Orphan Star was when he met those aliens.