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Writers who jumped the shark

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aalu...@webtv.net

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Jun 26, 2003, 1:27:43 AM6/26/03
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What writers do you think have jumped the shark.

My picks:
Piers Anthony - book Firefly for the story and r more importantly for
his authors note - came across as a total creep.

Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.

Isaac Asimov - Robot and Foundation - went to the well once too often -
still continued with some of the most unique magazine editorials ever
(Asimov) just couldn't write great novels again.

Christopher Adams

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Jun 26, 2003, 2:03:30 AM6/26/03
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> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.

"Insomnia" is better than much of what he wrote before "Tommyknockers", though
by means better than all, or even most. Ditto for "Dreamcatcher", since I'd
completely ignore the existence of the film.

Excellent post-"Tommyknockers" King: "Four Past Midnight", "Needful Things",
"Popsy", "The Ten O'Clock People", "Word Processor of the Gods" and much of
"Nightmares and Dreamscapes".

--
Christopher Adams -*- SUTEKH Dysfunctions Officer 2003
"So, Schwarzenegger is making noise now that he's going to run for
Governor of California, which begs the question: will we soon see the
day when the entire cast of PREDATOR is running the U.S. government?"
- WideScreenPig


David Matthews

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Jun 26, 2003, 2:24:44 AM6/26/03
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Graham Greene he wrote practically nothing of value after "The End of
the Affair".

John Dickson Carr - Some of his later novels were embarassingly bad.

Same with ;

Agatha Christie - Even her most ardent fans (of which I am not one)
admit that she had become a joke at the end of her career.

Dave in Toronto


The Curious Orange

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Jun 26, 2003, 9:00:22 AM6/26/03
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"David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...


Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one
of my fave SF writers (Puppet Masters, TMIAHM, SIASL), but towards the
latter half of career most of what he was turning out was unreadable,
sexist garbage.
Time enough for love? Yes. Time enough to read this shit? No.
His right wing "The rich shouldn't have to pay taxes because they're
better than everyone else" politics I can kind of live with, but
there's a bit in TEFL where Heinlein suggests that incest is OK
providing no children are born. I felt ashamed to have spent good
money on that book, even if it was only from a second-hand store.
The one where the old man puts himself into the body of his secretary
is unbelievably sexist male masturbatory fantasy garbage too (I think
it's called "Hear No Evil, See No Evil" or something like that) and
"Friday" made me cringe with embarrasment from cover to cover as well.

The other one that springs to mind for services to shark-jumping is
our old mukka Robert Jordan, as anyone who didn't give up on WOT after
the first few books can testify.

Don D'Ammassa

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Jun 26, 2003, 9:25:14 AM6/26/03
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"Christopher Adams" <mhacde...@obvious.spamblock.optusnet.com.au>
wrote in news:3efa8cb3$0$5973$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:

Just to show how tastes vary, I thought INSOMNIA was far and away King's
worst book. I generally agree that his quality has been declining, but A
BAG OF BONES ranks with his best work, and THE GREEN MILE is possibly his
best novel.

Niall McAuley

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Jun 26, 2003, 9:29:00 AM6/26/03
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"The Curious Orange" <alm...@esair.dlo.mod.uk> wrote in message news:93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com...

> The other one that springs to mind for services to shark-jumping is
> our old mukka Robert Jordan, as anyone who didn't give up on WOT after
> the first few books can testify.

I don't think the Wheel of Time series jumped the shark. I think
everything is proceeding as Jordan has foreseen.

I think he has the finale all set up, and could finish the whole
mess in one book anytime he likes. Of course, as long as people
keep buying volume after volume in which Nothing Happens, why
would he?
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]

Mark Hanson

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Jun 26, 2003, 10:49:03 AM6/26/03
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"The Curious Orange" <alm...@esair.dlo.mod.uk> wrote in message
news:93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com...
> The other one that springs to mind for services to shark-jumping is
> our old mukka Robert Jordan, as anyone who didn't give up on WOT after
> the first few books can testify.

Why would they agree if they *didn't* stop reading his books? Wouldn't that
suggest they like him?

Mark


K Barrett

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Jun 26, 2003, 11:51:40 AM6/26/03
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Val McDermid - 'A Place of Execution'

Peter Robinson - 'In a Dry Season'

Judith Wallis Martin - 'The Bird Yard'

PD James - 'Devices and Desires'

Martin Cruz Smith - 'Gorky Park'

John LeCarre - the Smiley books.

K Barrett

<aalu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29485-3E...@storefull-2291.public.lawson.webtv.net...

Sean O'Hara

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Jun 26, 2003, 1:42:09 PM6/26/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Mark Hanson declared...
No, it suggests we're too stubborn to give up a series after we're
more than halfway through (or what he said would be halfway through
at the time).

--
Sean O'Hara
"Harry goes through absolute hell every time he returns to school.
So I think that a bit of snogging would alleviate matters."
--J.K. Rowling

Sean O'Hara

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Jun 26, 2003, 1:50:40 PM6/26/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Christopher Adams
declared...

> > Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
> > above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
> > novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>
> "Insomnia" is better than much of what he wrote before "Tommyknockers", though
> by means better than all, or even most.

Insomnia was a piece of shit. The Dead Zone had a similar plot
about The Powers That Be selecting an ordinary Joe to perform
a rilly important task, except where the PTB moved subtlety to
push Johnny into trying to assassinate Stilson, they just show
up in front of Whossisname and explained what he had to do. The
whole thing felt cheap by comparison to TDZ.

Bev Vincent

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Jun 26, 2003, 1:51:01 PM6/26/03
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"Don D'Ammassa" <damm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A65FE4D7F3Bd...@198.99.146.18...

Everyone has different opinions. There are even some people out there who
like THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.
--
Bev Vincent
www.BevVincent.com

The Road to the Dark Tower, coming from NAL, November 2004


Mark Hanson

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Jun 26, 2003, 3:14:50 PM6/26/03
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"Sean O'Hara" <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
message news:MPG.1964fa7da...@news.cis.dfn.de...

> > Why would they agree if they *didn't* stop reading his books? Wouldn't
that
> > suggest they like him?
> >
> No, it suggests we're too stubborn to give up a series after we're
> more than halfway through (or what he said would be halfway through
> at the time).

Yes, it could also mean that. I, however, have yet to read Crossroads, which
surprises me. I *probably* haven't given up. Time will tell.

Mark


Larisa

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:27:14 PM6/26/03
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> What writers do you think have jumped the shark.
>
It pains me to say this, but I will anyway: Carl Hiaasen. I fervently
hope that "Basket Case" was just an isolated occurrence and not a
harbinger of things to come.

LM

Martyn Waites

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:47:14 PM6/26/03
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"David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...

Brilliant idea for a thread. Have to take exception with you on
Graham Greene, though, David (only slightly, mind). He did do The
Human Factor in 1978 which I think is one of his greatest and
certainly most under-rated books, right up there with Heart of the
Matter and Brighton Rock. Can't comment on the other two writers,
though. I thought all of Agatha Christie's books were bad. (Cue hate
mail . . . )

For my money, Kurt Vonnegut took the jump after Bluebeard (but then
when you look at what he did before that you can forgive him for
it)and Iain Banks after The Crow Road. Interesting how not many
people have mentioned crime writers here.

David J. Loftus

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:49:54 PM6/26/03
to
Is there someone who can explain the subtle
differences between "jumped the shark" and
"screwed the pooch"?

David Loftus

tomca...@yanospamhoo.com

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:56:46 PM6/26/03
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In rec.arts.books David J. Loftus <dlo...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Is there someone who can explain the subtle
> differences between "jumped the shark" and
> "screwed the pooch"?

http://www.jumptheshark.com/

Mike Schilling

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:56:19 PM6/26/03
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"Larisa" <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:34e2d56d.03062...@posting.google.com...

_Hoot_ is a hopeful sign. It was a YA book and obviously had to be toned
down, but he still managed to include a YA version of Skink.


Mike Schilling

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Jun 26, 2003, 4:58:32 PM6/26/03
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"Martyn Waites" <martyn....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:622f1d74.03062...@posting.google.com...

>
> For my money, Kurt Vonnegut took the jump after Bluebeard (but then
> when you look at what he did before that you can forgive him for
> it)and Iain Banks after The Crow Road. Interesting how not many
> people have mentioned crime writers here.

For mine, he took the jump with _Breakfast of Champions_, with _Jailbird_ as
a slight recovery. (I barely made it through _Galapogus_; he kept making the
same points over and over.)


Dan Swartzendruber

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Jun 26, 2003, 5:02:00 PM6/26/03
to
In article <62894d4c.03062...@posting.google.com>, dloft59
@earthlink.net says...

> Is there someone who can explain the subtle
> differences between "jumped the shark" and
> "screwed the pooch"?

Screwing the pooch means making a spectacular error. Jumping the shark
just means writing mediocre garbage (when you had started out okay.)

Sean O'Hara

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Jun 26, 2003, 5:03:52 PM6/26/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful David J. Loftus
declared...

> Is there someone who can explain the subtle
> differences between "jumped the shark" and
> "screwed the pooch"?
>
Screwing the pooch means a stupid and embarrassing screw-up.

Jumping the shark refers to the point when the declining quality
of a series becomes irreversible. The canonical example
is Happy Days where everytime the ratings slipped the writers
would make Fonzy do a stupid stunt -- like jumping sharks on
water skis.

El Capitan

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Jun 26, 2003, 5:35:49 PM6/26/03
to
In article <34e2d56d.03062...@posting.google.com>,
purple...@yahoo.com (Larisa) wrote:

While Hiaasen is truly funny, I think he's gone to the well once too
many times. That field of wacky Florida authors is getting a little
thick. They all come off as Elmore Leonard's goofy kid brother.

Let's see, you've got Hiaasen, who peaked with Native Tongue, IMHO.
Stormy Weather, Basket Case, Sick Puppy & Lucky You were only so-so.

Then there's Dave Barry, who writes the same (somewhat funny) column
over & over, and has now branched into the same vein of novels. I
actually liked the movie Big Trouble more than the book. I've got his
other one in the 'to read' pile.

There's also Tim Dorsey. His books have a wickedly funny, almost cruel
streak that surfaces every now & then, but overall the books are just OK.

In other genres, Gerald Browne, who wrote many novels about Beautiful
People committing jewel/cash heists jumped the shark with 18mm Blues.

Clive Cussler (Dirk Pitt series) jumped the shark when he started
inserting himself as a character into his own novels. Amusing the first
time, but got really old after that. (Someone in another thread
mentioned something about shattering your suspension of disbelief.)

Tom Clancy lost it (if he ever had it...) with Debt of Honor. Grisham &
Crichton lost it with the first novels they wrote strictly as fodder for
screenplays.

ObSF - For Skiffy/Fantsy authors, I agree wholeheartedly about Robert
Jordan having jumped the shark. The only other author that comes close
to Jordan's diarrhea of the keyboard was L. Ron Hubbard (or whatever
Scientology committee wrote that 10 volume set.) I read the 1st three
books of Jordan's Wheel of Time and got started on the 4th, but then the
Eight Deadly Words set in.

Others that have gone past their expiration date...
(putting on flameproof suit for this one... and YES, I know he's dead...)
Douglas Adams - anything past Restaurant EXCLUDING Dirk Gently stuff.

Piers Anthony, Terry Brooks, Simon R. Green, Katherine Kurtz, Joel
Rosenberg & the Weis/Hickman conglomerate will have to come up with some
pretty unique material before they get any more of my money.

Your Mileage May Vary...

El Capitan

--
A rose by any other name would be "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."

tomca...@yanospamhoo.com

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Jun 26, 2003, 5:57:48 PM6/26/03
to
Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
but I see he puts out a lot. How about J. K. Rowling? I liked the 3rd
book the best, haven't gotten to the 5th.

Don D'Ammassa

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:05:03 PM6/26/03
to
"K Barrett" <morm...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:gEEKa.25638$e26.16971
@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net:

>
>
> PD James - 'Devices and Desires'
>


Hey! I really enjoyed Death in Holy Orders!!!

Don D'Ammassa

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:07:15 PM6/26/03
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"Bev Vincent" <MaxD...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:9oGKa.2478$Ry3.1...@monger.newsread.com:


> Everyone has different opinions. There are even some people out there
> who like THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.

I liked PARTS of the Tommyknockers. King badly needed editing on books
during his middle period.

Aaron Brezenski

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:09:34 PM6/26/03
to
In article <bdfq8s$6il$1...@news1.radix.net>,

You could argue that she's let her prose get bloated, or is
revisiting old material[1], but it's difficult to say she's
jumped the shark.

If we start to see Son of Harry Potter, or Prequels, the possibility
of shark-jumpage goes up an order of magnitude at least.

[1] I agree with neither of these, but you could have a case if you
tried.

--
Aaron Brezenski
Not speaking for my employer in any way.

Doom & Gloom Dave

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:21:16 PM6/26/03
to

Even if the series was declinining I would think at this point we'd need
at least one more to see if there has been an irrevocable slide. Right now
up through #4 I think we've seen improvement.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Lee.DeRaud

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:24:03 PM6/26/03
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On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:03:30 +1000, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacde...@obvious.spamblock.optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
>> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
>> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>
>"Insomnia" is better than much of what he wrote before "Tommyknockers", though
>by means better than all, or even most. Ditto for "Dreamcatcher", since I'd
>completely ignore the existence of the film.
>
>Excellent post-"Tommyknockers" King: "Four Past Midnight", "Needful Things",
>"Popsy", "The Ten O'Clock People", "Word Processor of the Gods" and much of
>"Nightmares and Dreamscapes".

I'd certainly add "Dolores Claiborne" to that list. (I'd try to add
"Misery" as well, but IIRC it was *just* before "Tommyknockers".)

Lee

Lois

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:50:48 PM6/26/03
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"The Curious Orange" <alm...@esair.dlo.mod.uk> wrote in message
news:93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com...
> "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > Graham Greene he wrote practically nothing of value after "The End of
> > the Affair".

I know what the phrase means, but I don't think I've ever heard where it
originated. Strange way to say a writer is way past his/her sell by date.
--
Lois Remove (OH) from address to reply.


Jr@Ease

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Jun 26, 2003, 6:48:03 PM6/26/03
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" Lois" <bookworm(OH)@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

I think it had something to do with a Happy Days episode, when
Fonzie actually jumped over a shark, while waterskiing or something.
It was then that the world realized the show had gone downhill, so to
speak. I believe there is a website devoted to the concept.

John P

MaryWM

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:09:54 PM6/26/03
to
In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm-
d...@esair.dlo.mod.uk says...

> "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > Graham Greene he wrote practically nothing of value after "The End of
> > the Affair".
> >
> > John Dickson Carr - Some of his later novels were embarassingly bad.
> >
> > Same with ;
> >
> > Agatha Christie - Even her most ardent fans (of which I am not one)
> > admit that she had become a joke at the end of her career.
> >
> > Dave in Toronto
>
>
> Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one
> of my fave SF writers (Puppet Masters, TMIAHM, SIASL), but towards the
> latter half of career most of what he was turning out was unreadable,
> sexist garbage.

Yes! I thought I was the only one who noticed.
I read and loved all his early stuff, but told my
friends that his later stuff was all an old
man's wet dream.
MaryWM
(including Stranger in a Strange Land)

MaryWM

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:14:34 PM6/26/03
to
In article <622f1d74.03062...@posting.google.com>,
martyn....@ntlworld.com says...

> "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > Graham Greene he wrote practically nothing of value after "The End of
> > the Affair".
> >
> > John Dickson Carr - Some of his later novels were embarassingly bad.
> >
> > Same with ;
> >
> > Agatha Christie - Even her most ardent fans (of which I am not one)
> > admit that she had become a joke at the end of her career.
> >
> > Dave in Toronto
>
> Brilliant idea for a thread. Have to take exception with you on
> Graham Greene, though, David (only slightly, mind). He did do The
> Human Factor in 1978 which I think is one of his greatest and
> certainly most under-rated books, right up there with Heart of the
> Matter and Brighton Rock. Can't comment on the other two writers,
> though. I thought all of Agatha Christie's books were bad. (Cue hate
> mail . . . )

Nah, no hate mail. I always liked Aggie, but I started reading
her when I was about 10 years old. I think they're very
useful for introducing younger readers to the mystery genre.
The characters are "types", the plots fairly basic, and the
writing is not convoluted or difficult.
I donated a mess of Christie's to a junior high class and
the teacher told me that quite a number of the kids went right
through them. These were not kids who were readers.
MaryWM
(Aggie...where to go after Nancy Drew :)

A.C.

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:14:56 PM6/26/03
to
"MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1965393fa...@news-server.wi.rr.com...

> In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm-
> d...@esair.dlo.mod.uk says...
> > "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one
> > of my fave SF writers (Puppet Masters, TMIAHM, SIASL), but towards the
> > latter half of career most of what he was turning out was unreadable,
> > sexist garbage.
>
> Yes! I thought I was the only one who noticed.
> I read and loved all his early stuff, but told my
> friends that his later stuff was all an old
> man's wet dream.
> MaryWM
> (including Stranger in a Strange Land)

Obviously you're from not from the rec.arts.sf.written side of the thread...


MaryWM

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:16:15 PM6/26/03
to
In article <gEEKa.25638$e26....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,
morm...@hotmail.com says...
I liked "In a Dry Season" and "Devices and Desires"
MaryWM

Sean O'Hara

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:14:16 PM6/26/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Don D'Ammassa
declared...

> "Bev Vincent" <MaxD...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:9oGKa.2478$Ry3.1...@monger.newsread.com:
>
> > Everyone has different opinions. There are even some people out there
> > who like THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.
>
> I liked PARTS of the Tommyknockers.

So did I -- when I first read them in [Invasion of] the Body
Snatchers.

> King badly needed editing on books
> during his middle period.
>

No, he just needed to cut back on the booze and dope. I think
Tommyknockers is the one where he says he doesn't even remember
writing it, and it really shows.

mrfea...@aol.ccom

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:25:56 PM6/26/03
to
In article <bdfq8s$6il$1...@news1.radix.net>, tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com says...

>
>Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
>but I see he puts out a lot. How about J. K. Rowling? I liked the 3rd
>book the best, haven't gotten to the 5th.


No, and no.

Hmmm, Pratchett. Hey, Mitchy?

;-)

Mary


Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:30:23 PM6/26/03
to
On 26 Jun 2003 21:57:48 GMT, tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com wrote:

>Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
>but I see he puts out a lot.

No, he hasn't. His last couple have been among his very best.
There've been weak books, but they've always been followed a book or
two later by a return to form.


Don D'Ammassa

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:32:33 PM6/26/03
to
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1965484fa...@news.cis.dfn.de:

> In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Don D'Ammassa
> declared...
>> "Bev Vincent" <MaxD...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:9oGKa.2478$Ry3.1...@monger.newsread.com:
>>
>> > Everyone has different opinions. There are even some people out there
>> > who like THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.
>>
>> I liked PARTS of the Tommyknockers.
>
> So did I -- when I first read them in [Invasion of] the Body
> Snatchers.
>
>> King badly needed editing on books
>> during his middle period.
>>
> No, he just needed to cut back on the booze and dope. I think
> Tommyknockers is the one where he says he doesn't even remember
> writing it, and it really shows.
>

No, he needed editing. Large chunks of the novels could have/should have
been left out completely. The pacing got out of whack and the side trips,
while sometimes interesting in themselves, were out of place in the book.

John Schilling

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:33:12 PM6/26/03
to
dlo...@earthlink.net (David J. Loftus) writes:

>Is there someone who can explain the subtle
>differences between "jumped the shark" and
>"screwed the pooch"?


"Jumping the shark" is irreversible. It also need
not include individually spectacular errors worthy
of "screwed the pooch", although the former phrase
implies that there is at least a definable point at
which you can say the decline is now irreversible.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

Sean O'Hara

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Jun 26, 2003, 7:24:25 PM6/26/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful
tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com declared...

> Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
> but I see he puts out a lot.

Apart from an occassional stinker (Jingo) Pratchett's been getting
better for the last decade.

> How about J. K. Rowling? I liked the 3rd
> book the best, haven't gotten to the 5th.
>

Goblet of Fire wasn't as good as it could've been, but I still
thought it was an improvement over Prisoner of Azkaban as Azkaban
was on Chamber of Secrets, etc. Rowling says she took a year off
before starting Order of the Phoenix and it shows -- but for a
little excess fat, this is a superbly written book.

Eric Jarvis

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 7:54:08 PM6/26/03
to

even the weaker ones (IMO The Fifth Elephant and The
Thief of time) are still well worth a read...and it's
tough to find a general agreement on which are the weak
books...so it may just be that he's "pushing the envelope
a little"...I suspect that he's not written his best book
as yet

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"

Eric Jarvis

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 7:56:31 PM6/26/03
to
John Schilling wrote:
> dlo...@earthlink.net (David J. Loftus) writes:
>
> >Is there someone who can explain the subtle
> >differences between "jumped the shark" and
> >"screwed the pooch"?
>
> "Jumping the shark" is irreversible. It also need
> not include individually spectacular errors worthy
> of "screwed the pooch", although the former phrase
> implies that there is at least a definable point at
> which you can say the decline is now irreversible.
>

death would appear to be pretty conclusive as a first
thought...of course, I keep an open mind and am willing
to be proven wrong...but as far as I am aware no writer
has, as yet, managed to improve posthumously...they
merely get more critical acclaim

David Matthews

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:01:12 PM6/26/03
to

"MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19653a57e...@news-server.wi.rr.com...

You have a some good points there Mary. I'm surprised how many kids
(twelve or thereabouts) of different backgrounds like Agatha Christie.
I think it's part that she wrote so much and kids usually like
collecting things plus she is easy to read.

Dave in Toronto.


David Matthews

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:06:31 PM6/26/03
to

"Jr@Ease" <JrAt...@pkh.com> wrote in message
news:3ttmfvcnsal304l4k...@4ax.com...

I've always known what it meant but I don't how I got to know it (if
that makes sense). Whatever it's origins somehow the phrase works.

Dave in Toronto


tejas

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:24:16 PM6/26/03
to

"Dan Swartzendruber" <dsw...@druber.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1965294e1...@news.supernews.net...

Since it's a teevee metaphor, mediocre garbage is somewhat redundant. Don't
get me wrong,
there's much admiration for mediocre gabage nearly everywhere.

ObWhereIsHe?: HL Mencken

Ted.


Don D'Ammassa

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:30:50 PM6/26/03
to
Eric Jarvis <w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in
news:MPG.1965988cc...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:

> John Schilling wrote:
>> dlo...@earthlink.net (David J. Loftus) writes:
>>
>> >Is there someone who can explain the subtle
>> >differences between "jumped the shark" and
>> >"screwed the pooch"?
>>
>> "Jumping the shark" is irreversible. It also need
>> not include individually spectacular errors worthy
>> of "screwed the pooch", although the former phrase
>> implies that there is at least a definable point at
>> which you can say the decline is now irreversible.
>>
>
> death would appear to be pretty conclusive as a first
> thought...of course, I keep an open mind and am willing
> to be proven wrong...but as far as I am aware no writer
> has, as yet, managed to improve posthumously...they
> merely get more critical acclaim
>

L.Ron Hubbard had a substantial posthumous "career", but I doubt anyone
outside Scientology considers them better than his early SF.

Craig Richardson

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:07:33 PM6/26/03
to
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:48:03 -0400, "Jr@Ease" <JrAt...@pkh.com>
wrote:

Yep. If the best the writers can come up with as a way of maintaining
interest and excitement is the canned danger of having Fonzie jumping
over something that might kill him (again!) just so you can cut to
commercial - or next week's episode - with him in midair, you're as
much as admitting that the show has run its course and should be
smothered in its sleep before the next Sweeps period.

--Craig


--
Managing the Devil Rays is something like competing on "Iron Chef",
and having Chairman Kaga reveal a huge ziggurat of lint.
Gary Huckabay, Baseball Prospectus Online, August 21, 2002

K Barrett

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Jun 26, 2003, 8:36:16 PM6/26/03
to

"Don D'Ammassa" <damm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93A6B80348AEFd...@198.99.146.18...

Were you by chance reading it while waiting to be called for jury duty? (the
most bone crushingly boring thing I have ever done in my life - second to
slogging thru DIHO)

K Barrett


Don Tuite

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:37:28 PM6/26/03
to
On 26 Jun 2003 21:57:48 GMT, tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com wrote:

>Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,

>but I see he puts out a lot. How about J. K. Rowling? I liked the 3rd


>book the best, haven't gotten to the 5th.

It's a YMMV situation. TP actually does different genres within a
consistent, though eccentric universe. *Small Gods* is a good place
to start. I also like the police procedurals.

Don

K Barrett

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:41:14 PM6/26/03
to
"MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19653abbe...@news-server.wi.rr.com...

Well maybe I'm misusing the concept of jumping the shark. I thought that
after the books the authors never really were as good again. As in after the
episode where Fonzie jumped the shark Happy Days was never quite as funny
again.

I could be wrong - (off to google the web page re: jumping the shark.)

K Barrett


Mike Schilling

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 8:43:47 PM6/26/03
to

"MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1965393fa...@news-server.wi.rr.com...

> > Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one
> > of my fave SF writers (Puppet Masters, TMIAHM, SIASL), but towards the
> > latter half of career most of what he was turning out was unreadable,
> > sexist garbage.
>
> Yes! I thought I was the only one who noticed.
> I read and loved all his early stuff, but told my
> friends that his later stuff was all an old
> man's wet dream.

You're hardly the only one. On r.a.s.f.w this is close to conventional
wisdom, though on alt.fan.heinlein you will hear different opinions. (One
different opinion, actually.)


MaryWM

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 9:03:23 PM6/26/03
to
In article <Q7LKa.177437$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com says...
No, but s.f. was a hobby for many, many years. One fine summer
I read one book each day, (actually between midnight and about 4 am).
"Stranger in a Strange Land" replaced Kerouac's road book
as some kind of "bible." Appealed much more to a certain type
of young man than to many young women, (kinda obvious I would
have thought).
Now "left Hand of Darkness" by LeGuin...
MaryWM

Don D'Ammassa

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 9:02:33 PM6/26/03
to
"K Barrett" <morm...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:4kMKa.27677$3d.16466@sccrnsc02:

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

artyw

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 9:34:54 PM6/26/03
to
aalu...@webtv.net wrote in message news:<29485-3E...@storefull-2291.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> What writers do you think have jumped the shark.
>
> My picks:
> Piers Anthony - book Firefly for the story and r more importantly for
> his authors note - came across as a total creep.
>
> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>
> Isaac Asimov - Robot and Foundation - went to the well once too often -
> still continued with some of the most unique magazine editorials ever
> (Asimov) just couldn't write great novels again.

Orson Scott Card Xenocide (Though I guess at least one of the Alvin
Maker series was later?)

Bud Beckman

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 9:40:23 PM6/26/03
to
Martyn Waites wrote:
>
> XX < Interesting how not many
> people have mentioned crime writers here.

Hmm, well motice the cross posting, duh!

This'll be my only cross post as I follow rec.arts.mystery

Bud


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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Tuvix

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Jun 26, 2003, 9:21:41 PM6/26/03
to

Tommyknockers is described by King, in his dedication to his editor,
as being "not so much written, as gutted out". I'd say that, bad as
it is, it was unimaginably worse before editing. I'm guessing an
editor can only do so much, short of asking the author to sit
down and start from scratch again. Tommyknockers comes at the time
King describes as his worst period in indulging in booze and cocaine,
the point at which he "hit bottom".

Dan Goodman

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 10:34:46 PM6/26/03
to
aalu...@webtv.net wrote in news:29485-3EFA844F-32@storefull-
2291.public.lawson.webtv.net:

> What writers do you think have jumped the shark.

For rec.arts.sf.written, see various threads about "The Brain Eater".

--
Dan Goodman dsg...@visi.com
Journal: http://dsgood.blogspot.com

Johnny1A

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 10:42:52 PM6/26/03
to
"Don D'Ammassa" <damm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93A6B8663DFBDd...@198.99.146.18>...

> "Bev Vincent" <MaxD...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:9oGKa.2478$Ry3.1...@monger.newsread.com:
>
>
> > Everyone has different opinions. There are even some people out there
> > who like THE TOMMYKNOCKERS.
>
> I liked PARTS of the Tommyknockers.

Ditto. Some parts of _The Tommyknockers_ were scary, unnerving,
hilarious, etc, and usually the reaction was the one King intended.
Other parts were draggy, and the ending could have been better.

OTOH, _1408_ was a really _excellent_ piece of work.

Shermanlee

Maureen O'Brien

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 11:24:01 PM6/26/03
to
David Matthews wrote:
>You have a some good points there Mary. I'm surprised how many kids
>(twelve or thereabouts) of different backgrounds like Agatha >Christie. I think it's part that she wrote so much and kids usually
>like collecting things plus she is easy to read.

Also, the puzzle aspect is right up kids' alley.

Maureen

R.A. Leonard

unread,
Jun 26, 2003, 11:53:54 PM6/26/03
to
Martyn Waites wrote:

>
> For my money, Kurt Vonnegut took the jump after Bluebeard (but then
> when you look at what he did before that you can forgive him for
> it)and Iain Banks after The Crow Road. Interesting how not many


> people have mentioned crime writers here.

How about
"C is for Come to a Complete Halt Now Before it Gets Any Worse" by Sue Grafton?

--
__________________________________________
R.A. Leonard
Ottawa Canada
http://www.raleonard.com/


Don Tuite

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 12:00:40 AM6/27/03
to
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:53:54 -0400, "R.A. Leonard"
<rale...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Martyn Waites wrote:
>
>>
>> For my money, Kurt Vonnegut took the jump after Bluebeard (but then
>> when you look at what he did before that you can forgive him for
>> it)and Iain Banks after The Crow Road. Interesting how not many
>> people have mentioned crime writers here.
>
>How about
>"C is for Come to a Complete Halt Now Before it Gets Any Worse" by Sue Grafton?

Ok, we got a couple of threads in syzygy here. What it comes down to
is it's all the publishers' fault. They tend to insist that their
A-list and mid-list (is there a Z-list?) authors create series and
flog them to an unpretty death.

Sue G., like most of the detective-book crowd is frustratingly
constrained by Kinsey and St Teresa in the late 80s. In contrast,
Terry P. has far more latitude and characters and genres on
Discworld.

Sue doesn't have to worry about fans writing snuff stories about
Kinsey -- the limited opportunities are just not worth the
finger-strain. But Terry (and JKR) have enormous casts of characters
just waiting for the *Realist* treatment, (That's where the Disney
fuck-o-rama illustration that Loftus described first surfaced, IIRC.
Where is Krassner these days?) and so Terry's got to worry about the
Pictsies turning train-watcher thanks to some ham-handed fan.

All clear?

Don

Dark Lensman

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 2:30:40 AM6/27/03
to
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19654ab75...@news.cis.dfn.de>...

> In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful
> tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com declared...
> > Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
> > but I see he puts out a lot.
>
> Apart from an occassional stinker (Jingo) Pratchett's been getting
> better for the last decade.

And i think Jingo is amongst his best, feet of clay on the other
hand.. - it just goes to show that he hasnt jumped the shark

David Allsopp

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 3:40:51 AM6/27/03
to
In article <MPG.19654ab75...@news.cis.dfn.de>, Sean O'Hara
<darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> writes

>In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful
>tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com declared...
>> Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
>> but I see he puts out a lot.
>
>Apart from an occassional stinker (Jingo) Pratchett's been getting
>better for the last decade.

I thought that "Jingo" was a bit sub-par, but I also found that it
improved enormously on re-reading. It's certainly much darker than most
of Pterry's stuff, which may put people off. You could argue that it's an
earlier, less successful run at "Night Watch", which I thought excellent,
and am intending to see if a re-read will have the same effect.
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 4:55:54 AM6/27/03
to
> Just to show how tastes vary, I thought INSOMNIA was far and away King's
> worst book. I generally agree that his quality has been declining, but A
> BAG OF BONES ranks with his best work, and THE GREEN MILE is possibly his
> best novel.

I should declare my allegiances - I think "It" is by far the absolute best thing
King has ever written. Not just because it's a very good American horror novel
but also because it's the culmination of the theme of childhood terror and the
power of imagination that runs through so much of his earlier work (and it does
seem to have leached out of the majority of what he's written since, except
perhaps when he returns to Derry).

I haven't read "The Green Mile" but I expect it to be good. It seems to me that
it, like "Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption", are probably good things at
which to point people who don't believe he's a good writer.

--
Christopher Adams -*- SUTEKH Dysfunctions Officer 2003
"So, Schwarzenegger is making noise now that he's going to run for
Governor of California, which begs the question: will we soon see the
day when the entire cast of PREDATOR is running the U.S. government?"
- WideScreenPig


Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 4:57:28 AM6/27/03
to
> John LeCarre - the Smiley books.

Ha, John LeCarre - before he began. Overrated, but not as overrated as Frederick
Forsyth.

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 4:58:46 AM6/27/03
to
>>> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
>>> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
>>> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>>
>> "Insomnia" is better than much of what he wrote before "Tommyknockers",
>> though by means better than all, or even most.
>
> Insomnia was a piece of shit. The Dead Zone had a similar plot
> about The Powers That Be selecting an ordinary Joe to perform
> a rilly important task, except where the PTB moved subtlety to
> push Johnny into trying to assassinate Stilson, they just show
> up in front of Whossisname and explained what he had to do. The
> whole thing felt cheap by comparison to TDZ.

Hey, maybe I should read "The Dead Zone".

Nevertheless, I thought that the meaningful parts of "Insomnia" had very little
to do with the ostensible plot, and that's what I enjoyed it for.

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:01:18 AM6/27/03
to
>>> Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
>>> but I see he puts out a lot.
>>
>> No, he hasn't. His last couple have been among his very best.
>> There've been weak books, but they've always been followed a book or
>> two later by a return to form.
>
> even the weaker ones (IMO The Fifth Elephant and The
> Thief of time) are still well worth a read...and it's
> tough to find a general agreement on which are the weak
> books...

My best friend, for example, counts "The Fifth Elephant" as among her
favourites. I have not yet read it, though I plan to after my essay is done and
I devour "Order of the Phoenix".

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:07:30 AM6/27/03
to
> Interesting how not many people have mentioned crime
> writers here.

Oh, I'll have a go in the resoundingly unhelpful fashion I call my own.

James Ellroy - I don't think he's jumped the shark at all, but *if* one was
reading him solely for the psychopathic sex-murderers and 1950s Los Angeles
atmosphere then "American Tabloid" and "The Cold Six Thousand" would leave you,
well, cold.

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:12:07 AM6/27/03
to
>>> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
>>> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
>>> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>>
>> "Insomnia" is better than much of what he wrote before "Tommyknockers",
>> though by means better than all, or even most. Ditto for
>> "Dreamcatcher", since I'd completely ignore the existence of the film.
>>
>> Excellent post-"Tommyknockers" King: "Four Past Midnight", "Needful
>> Things", "Popsy", "The Ten O'Clock People", "Word Processor of the
>> Gods" and much of "Nightmares and Dreamscapes".
>
> I'd certainly add "Dolores Claiborne" to that list. (I'd try to add
> "Misery" as well, but IIRC it was *just* before "Tommyknockers".)

Since I was already being dictatorial about what was good from King anyway, I
thought I'd better not assert the excellence of that which I had not read. ;)

how...@brazee.net

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 8:03:30 AM6/27/03
to

On 26-Jun-2003, "Niall McAuley" <Niall....@eei.ericsson.es.invalid>
wrote:

> I don't think the Wheel of Time series jumped the shark. I think
> everything is proceeding as Jordan has foreseen.

When he keeps writing the same story forever, there isn't a point where
someone can claim "he jumped the shark".

Michael Stemper

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 9:12:58 AM6/27/03
to
In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm...@esair.dlo.mod.uk (The Curious Orange) writes:

>Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors.

You know, I've seen the expression "jump the shark" used here before, but
never had a good grasp on what it meant. From context, it appears to mean
something like "succumbed to the Brain-Eater." Would somebody care to
explain more precisely? Its derivation would also be of interest.

>Time enough for love? Yes. Time enough to read this shit? No.
>His right wing "The rich shouldn't have to pay taxes because they're
>better than everyone else" politics I can kind of live with, but

I don't recall such from TEfL. It seems consistent with the sorts of
opinions that RAH^W Lazarus Long expressed, but I don't recall any
exposition of this.

>there's a bit in TEFL where Heinlein suggests that incest is OK
>providing no children are born.

"A bit"? There are four to six different kinds of incest explored in
TEfL. I don't think that any of them were portrayed in any negative
light -- except for LL's (initial) reluctance to participate in each
of them.

>The one where the old man puts himself into the body of his secretary
>is unbelievably sexist male masturbatory fantasy garbage too (I think
>it's called "Hear No Evil, See No Evil" or something like that)

_I Will Fear No Evil_. After a hiatus of at least a decade, I tried
to reread this a few weeks back. After about fifty pages of Johann-Eunice
going "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" in their internal dia/monologue, it
went into the "to be sold" pile. Fortunately, this was before she
got around to actually spreading her legs for anybody - although it
was after the visit to the sperm bank where she pressured them into
letting her impregnate herself with Johann's sperm. Speaking of incest.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.

Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 9:35:30 AM6/27/03
to
Michael Stemper wrote:
>
> In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm...@esair.dlo.mod.uk (The Curious Orange) writes:
>
> >Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors.
>
> You know, I've seen the expression "jump the shark" used here before, but
> never had a good grasp on what it meant. From context, it appears to mean
> something like "succumbed to the Brain-Eater." Would somebody care to
> explain more precisely? Its derivation would also be of interest.

http://www.jumptheshark.com/

I think that as a definition, it's jumped the shark.

> >Time enough for love? Yes. Time enough to read this shit? No.
> >His right wing "The rich shouldn't have to pay taxes because they're
> >better than everyone else" politics I can kind of live with, but
>
> I don't recall such from TEfL. It seems consistent with the sorts of
> opinions that RAH^W Lazarus Long expressed, but I don't recall any
> exposition of this.

He seemed kind of libertarian.



> >there's a bit in TEFL where Heinlein suggests that incest is OK
> >providing no children are born.
>
> "A bit"? There are four to six different kinds of incest explored in
> TEfL. I don't think that any of them were portrayed in any negative
> light -- except for LL's (initial) reluctance to participate in each
> of them.

I dunno...the twins...ack. That still creeps me out.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kalima...@attbi.com | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "When they started singing kum ba yah, we had
to take them out" -- Vampire Roadtrip, the Hammerdowns

Christopher Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 9:43:20 AM6/27/03
to
>> Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors.
>
> You know, I've seen the expression "jump the shark" used here before, but
> never had a good grasp on what it meant. From context, it appears to mean
> something like "succumbed to the Brain-Eater." Would somebody care to
> explain more precisely? Its derivation would also be of interest.

http://www.jumptheshark.com/

Derived from the episode of "Happy Days" in which the Fonz jumped over a shark
on waterskis in an attempt to boost ratings with a death-defying stunt, the
expression "jumped the shark" means the point at which a television show (or
other continuing phenomenon) ceased to possess that which made it of interest in
the first place, or at least the point at which its creative death became
evident.

For example, "Scooby Doo" can be said to have jumped the shark with the
introduction of Scrappy Doo. Some argue that "Spock's Brain" is the episode in
which the original series of "Satr Trek" jumped the shark. "Seinfeld" may be
lucky in that the only episode in which it jumped the shark, according to
general opinion, was the finale.

So this thread, then, is a discussion of when certain writers ceased to hold the
same attraction for readers which they once enjoyed.

Julie d'Aubigny

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 9:58:40 AM6/27/03
to
Christopher Adams wrote:
>
> >> Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors.
> >
> > You know, I've seen the expression "jump the shark" used here before, but
> > never had a good grasp on what it meant. From context, it appears to mean
> > something like "succumbed to the Brain-Eater." Would somebody care to
> > explain more precisely? Its derivation would also be of interest.
>
> http://www.jumptheshark.com/
>
> Derived from the episode of "Happy Days" in which the Fonz jumped over a shark
> on waterskis in an attempt to boost ratings with a death-defying stunt, the
> expression "jumped the shark" means the point at which a television show (or
> other continuing phenomenon) ceased to possess that which made it of interest in
> the first place, or at least the point at which its creative death became
> evident.
>
> For example, "Scooby Doo" can be said to have jumped the shark with the
> introduction of Scrappy Doo. Some argue that "Spock's Brain" is the episode in
> which the original series of "Satr Trek" jumped the shark. "Seinfeld" may be
> lucky in that the only episode in which it jumped the shark, according to
> general opinion, was the finale.
>
> So this thread, then, is a discussion of when certain writers ceased to hold the
> same attraction for readers which they once enjoyed.

The reason, incidentally, that I feel that the term really doesn't hold
a lot of meaning is that I often see it applied arbitrarily to moments
which don't define any creative death... I mean, they're bad, sure, but
not fatally so.

tomca...@yanospamhoo.com

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 10:03:25 AM6/27/03
to
In rec.arts.books aalu...@webtv.net wrote:

> What writers do you think have jumped the shark.

How about Dickens, Balzac, Jane Austen? Prolific writers, but I've
only read bits and pieces of their output so I don't have a sense
of an overall decline.

francis muir

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 10:46:06 AM6/27/03
to
On 6/27/03 7:03 AM, in article bdhird$kub$1...@news1.radix.net,
"tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com" <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote:

Our Jane prolific? You're joking, right? Not difficult to read all her stuff
in a week. Personally I am particularly fond of her juvenilia and her first
written novel, *Lady Susan*. They have a lot of bite to them, but others
would argue that her last, unfinished novel, *Sanditon* is about as good as
anything she wrote. Hey, one of the ladies therein, a rich 'un, is "half
mulatto". Alas, we never got to find out what happened to her. What with her
(JA's) brothers being in the Navy, she would have been quite knowledable
about things Windian, to the point that she knew that bermuda was not in the
West Indies . .

tomca...@yanospamhoo.com

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 10:56:48 AM6/27/03
to
In rec.arts.books tejas <tbsa...@infionline.net> wrote:

> Since it's a teevee metaphor, mediocre garbage is somewhat redundant. Don't
> get me wrong, there's much admiration for mediocre gabage nearly everywhere.

> ObWhereIsHe?: HL Mencken

ObTVWhereIsHe?: Newton Minnow

"You will see a procession of game shows, violence, audience-participation
shows, formula comedies about totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder,
mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western badmen, western good men,
private eyes, gangsters, more violence and cartoons. And, endlessly,
commercials--many screaming, cajoling and offending. And most of all, boredom.
True, you will see a few things you will enjoy. But they will be very, very
few. And if you think I exaggerate, try it."

http://www.janda.org/b20/News%20articles/vastwastland.htm

Eric Jarvis

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 11:14:36 AM6/27/03
to
Dark Lensman wrote:
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19654ab75...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful
> > tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com declared...
> > > Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
> > > but I see he puts out a lot.
> >
> > Apart from an occassional stinker (Jingo) Pratchett's been getting
> > better for the last decade.
>
> And i think Jingo is amongst his best, feet of clay on the other
> hand.. - it just goes to show that he hasnt jumped the shark
>

Jingo is one of my favourites too...but I also loved Feet
of Clay...which just goes to show that he's just
stretching a little further and a long way from the
endless downward slide

I suspect that if he ever thinks he can't excite himself
with a book he'll simply stop writing...he's not exactly
short of a quid or two so he's not been writing simply to
feed the bank for some while...and he's set himself a
setting and several regular characters that can be used
to tackle pretty much any standard plot and turn it on
its head...so I don't see him running out of jokes

prolific authors I'm more worried about are Ian Rankin
and Carl Hiaassen...both of whom seem to be painting
themselves into a corner...Rankin because he keeps
returning to a character (Rebus) who seems to be
"developing" by going in circles...and Hiassen because
there are only so many books you can write about hard
bitten, disillusioned local reporters before it starts
seeming cliched...I suspect both need to stretch
themselves a bit or they'll start getting very dull

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"

francis muir

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 11:24:55 AM6/27/03
to
On 6/27/03 7:56 AM, in article bdhlvg$nds$1...@news1.radix.net,
"tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com" <tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com> wrote:

There's a newish Wham Bam technique that I find quite entertaining. Good
examples would be NBC's *Access Hollywood* and FOX's *Stupid Things Caught
On Tape*. This latter I caught last night for the first time as I was
waiting for the *scrubs* re-run to come on. This latter half-hour show -
what a change! - is the only Fido Four-Star SitCom.

Jumping the Shark - and not quite making it - would make an excellent Stupid
Thing for FOX. The last episode yeasterday was a guy who bungie-jumped after
making a "rough calculation" and forgetting that bungie stretched. Off a
bridge and landed on rock. Ouch.

Luna

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 9:38:28 AM6/27/03
to
In article <6a419650.03062...@posting.google.com>,
darkl...@yahoo.co.uk (Dark Lensman) wrote:

> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:<MPG.19654ab75...@news.cis.dfn.de>...
> > In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful
> > tomca...@yaNOSPAMhoo.com declared...
> > > Has Terry Pratchett jumped the shark? I haven't read any of his stuff,
> > > but I see he puts out a lot.
> >
> > Apart from an occassional stinker (Jingo) Pratchett's been getting
> > better for the last decade.
>
> And i think Jingo is amongst his best, feet of clay on the other
> hand.. - it just goes to show that he hasnt jumped the shark
>
>
>


I loved, LOVED Jingo, and Feet of Clay. The one I seem to reread the least
often is Pyramids, so I guess that's my least favorite.

--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna


Sean O'Hara

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 12:18:27 PM6/27/03
to
In the Year of the Goat, the Great and Powerful Don D'Ammassa
declared...
>
> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.1965484fa...@news.cis.dfn.de:
>
> >> King badly needed editing on books
> >> during his middle period.
> >>
> > No, he just needed to cut back on the booze and dope. I think
> > Tommyknockers is the one where he says he doesn't even remember
> > writing it, and it really shows.
> >
> >
> No, he needed editing. Large chunks of the novels could have/should have
> been left out completely. The pacing got out of whack and the side trips,
> while sometimes interesting in themselves, were out of place in the book.
>
You miss the point -- the only thing that could've saved
Tommyknockers is if King hadn't written it while coked up
and drunk. There's nothing an editor could've done to save
it besides chucking the MS in the garbage and telling him
to start over.

--
Sean O'Hara
"Harry goes through absolute hell every time he returns to school.
So I think that a bit of snogging would alleviate matters."
--J.K. Rowling

Benjamin Adams

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 12:31:01 PM6/27/03
to
El Capitan <pir...@NOSPAMairmail.net> wrote in news:pirate-
1A549E.163...@library.airnews.net:

> ObSF - For Skiffy/Fantsy authors, I agree wholeheartedly about Robert
> Jordan having jumped the shark. The only other author that comes close
> to Jordan's diarrhea of the keyboard was L. Ron Hubbard (or whatever
> Scientology committee wrote that 10 volume set.)

L. Ron did actually write the Mission Earth series. Pity the poor
Scientologist who had to edit the thing.

-Ben Adams

Lee Fyock

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 12:37:11 PM6/27/03
to
In article <MPG.1965294e1...@news.supernews.net>, Dan
Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com> wrote:

> In article <62894d4c.03062...@posting.google.com>, dloft59
> @earthlink.net says...
> > Is there someone who can explain the subtle
> > differences between "jumped the shark" and
> > "screwed the pooch"?
>
> Screwing the pooch means making a spectacular error. Jumping the shark
> just means writing mediocre garbage (when you had started out okay.)

No -- jumping the shark is when you do something "spectacular" in an
effort to retain viewers when you know you've reached your peak and are
on the downhill slide.

See <http://www.jumpingtheshark.com/>.


Lee

Terry Pratchett

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 1:22:01 PM6/27/03
to
In article <MPG.196597f78...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, Eric Jarvis
<w...@ericjarvis.co.uk> writes

>
>even the weaker ones (IMO The Fifth Elephant and The
>Thief of time) are still well worth a read...and it's
>tough to find a general agreement on which are the weak
>books...so it may just be that he's "pushing the envelope
>a little"...I suspect that he's not written his best book
>as yet

:-) We shall see.

But authors in any genre face a problem here. You've got to test the
envelope or go mad. Yet you are made well aware that there's plenty of
fans out there who want more of the same -- they want to see the same
characters acting like they did in the last book.
--
Terry Pratchett

Mike Schilling

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 1:36:21 PM6/27/03
to

"Terry Pratchett" <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nz2MstA50H$+E...@unseen.demon.co.uk...

> But authors in any genre face a problem here. You've got to test the
> envelope or go mad. Yet you are made well aware that there's plenty of
> fans out there who want more of the same -- they want to see the same
> characters acting like they did in the last book.


As Orwell wrote, in his essay on Dickens,

"What people always demand of a popular novelist is that he shall write the
same book over and over again, forgetting that a man who would write the
same book twice could not even write it once."


Larry Caldwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 1:58:38 PM6/27/03
to

Yes, "jumping the shark" means doing something extreme to try to recover
lost fan interest. Jordan is just boring people to death with novel
after novel where nothing ever happens. Another author with a similar
problem is David Eddings, who just writes the same series over and over
again.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Liz Broadwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 2:34:10 PM6/27/03
to
Larry Caldwell wrote:
>Yes, "jumping the shark" means doing something extreme to try to recover
>lost fan interest. Jordan is just boring people to death with novel
>after novel where nothing ever happens. Another author with a similar
>problem is David Eddings, who just writes the same series over and over
>again.

Maybe you could say that such writers have been "eaten by the shark"
instead, since they seem to be spending all their time circling ... and
circling ... and circling ... :-)

Peace,
Liz "bingley-bingley-beep!" B.

--
Elizabeth Broadwell (ebroadwe at dept dot english dot upenn dot edu) at
the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
"There was also a lot of talk about, you know, The Children -- the poor
tots, always running into popular culture without looking both ways."
-- Charles P. Pierce

Don D'Ammassa

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 2:37:43 PM6/27/03
to
Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1965b741f...@news.cis.dfn.de:

>>
> You miss the point -- the only thing that could've saved
> Tommyknockers is if King hadn't written it while coked up
> and drunk. There's nothing an editor could've done to save
> it besides chucking the MS in the garbage and telling him
> to start over.
>

I didn't miss your point. I just don't agree. The plot isn't bad, though
hardly original, the characterizations are mostly well done. The animated
coke machine needs to go away. The little side issues need to be dropped.
The opening chapters should be shorter, and some of the latter scenes
trimmed a bit. That's what an editor should have told King to do. Whether
he would have done it or not is another issue entirely.

Don D'Ammassa

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 2:38:24 PM6/27/03
to
Benjamin Adams <bena...@cox.net> wrote in
news:Xns93A760CEC539...@68.6.19.6:

Has that ever been substantiated? I heard rumors for some time that it was
done by a committee of writers including Van Vogt.

Don D'Ammassa

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 2:40:51 PM6/27/03
to
Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1966263cb...@newstest2.earthlink.net:

Actually, the Eddings just wrote a contemporary horror/suspense novel,
Regina's Song. Unfortunately, it was incredibly, embarassingly, awful.
They are so used to being able to invent anything in a fantasy world that
they did the same thing whenever they were writing about something in the
real world that they didn't know about. It was one of those novels that is
so stunningly awful that I actually read the entire thing, mesmerized by
the sustained level of terribleness. Adequate words fail me.

A.C.

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 3:52:35 PM6/27/03
to
MaryWM <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.196553b5e...@news-server.wi.rr.com>...
> In article <Q7LKa.177437$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com says...
> > "MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1965393fa...@news-server.wi.rr.com...
> > > In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm-
> > > d...@esair.dlo.mod.uk says...
> > > > "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > > > Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one
> > > > of my fave SF writers (Puppet Masters, TMIAHM, SIASL), but towards the
> > > > latter half of career most of what he was turning out was unreadable,
> > > > sexist garbage.
> > > Yes! I thought I was the only one who noticed.
> > > I read and loved all his early stuff, but told my
> > > friends that his later stuff was all an old
> > > man's wet dream.
> > > MaryWM
> > > (including Stranger in a Strange Land)
> >
> > Obviously you're from not from the rec.arts.sf.written side of the thread...
> >
> No, but s.f. was a hobby for many, many years. One fine summer
> I read one book each day, (actually between midnight and about 4 am).
> "Stranger in a Strange Land" replaced Kerouac's road book
> as some kind of "bible." Appealed much more to a certain type
> of young man than to many young women, (kinda obvious I would
> have thought).
> Now "left Hand of Darkness" by LeGuin...

My point was that anyone who read rec.arts.sf.written casually would
never say "I thought I was the only one who noticed." There are many,
many people (myself included) who have a low opinion of his later
work. Hell, I have a low opinion of his early work too, but that's a
minority opinion.

Eric Jarvis

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 4:51:33 PM6/27/03
to

there shouldn't be a problem anyway...all the people who
wanted The Colour of Magic 7+1 stopped reading Discworld
long ago

tomca...@yanospamhoo.com

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:07:47 PM6/27/03
to
In rec.arts.books Terry Pratchett <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> But authors in any genre face a problem here. You've got to test the
> envelope or go mad. Yet you are made well aware that there's plenty of
> fans out there who want more of the same -- they want to see the same
> characters acting like they did in the last book.

I think you should get a toy shark and jump it, just to play it safe ...

Robert J. Kolker

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:35:14 PM6/27/03
to

aalu...@webtv.net wrote:
> What writers do you think have jumped the shark.
>

> My picks:
> Piers Anthony - book Firefly for the story and r more importantly for
> his authors note - came across as a total creep.

>
> Stephen King = Tommyknockers a turning point for a great writer to an
> above average writer - some gems after but nothing compared to his
> novels preTommyknockers - also one of his worst novels.
>

> Isaac Asimov - Robot and Foundation - went to the well once too often -
> still continued with some of the most unique magazine editorials ever
> (Asimov) just couldn't write great novels again.
>

S.M. Stirling with had goddam ISOTs. Turtledove with his World War and
American Empire.

Bob Kolker

David Bilek

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 5:44:19 PM6/27/03
to

You are asserting that _Island in the Sea of Time_, _The Peshawar
Lancers_, and _Conquistador_ are weaker than, say, _Drakon_?

That's a rather stunning assertion.

-David

MaryWM

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 6:32:06 PM6/27/03
to
In article <a4bef640.03062...@posting.google.com>,
nomadi...@hotmail.com says...

> MaryWM <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.196553b5e...@news-server.wi.rr.com>...
> > In article <Q7LKa.177437$h42.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> > nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com says...
> > > "MaryWM" <wei...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.1965393fa...@news-server.wi.rr.com...
> > > > In article <93502af7.03062...@posting.google.com>, alm-
> > > > d...@esair.dlo.mod.uk says...
> > > > > "David Matthews" <dmatt...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:<FkwKa.4545$Fe3.7...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > > > > Robert Heinlein would top my list of Shark-jumping authors. He's one

>

> My point was that anyone who read rec.arts.sf.written casually would
> never say "I thought I was the only one who noticed." There are many,
> many people (myself included) who have a low opinion of his later
> work. Hell, I have a low opinion of his early work too, but that's a
> minority opinion.
>

Oh, sorry...now I see.
Well he was never up there with the biggies, to my mind,
but he was a fair storyteller...as s.f. goes, I guess you
could say he wrote "cozies." (ooo he'd hate that)
I can't hang around another ng...that whole eating, earning
thing intervenes. Plus, this is the most civil ng I ever encountered...
how are they over in rec.arts.sf, etc.?
MaryWM

Larry Caldwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 6:44:09 PM6/27/03
to
damm...@ix.netcom.com (Don D'Ammassa) writes:

> Actually, the Eddings just wrote a contemporary horror/suspense novel,
> Regina's Song. Unfortunately, it was incredibly, embarassingly, awful.
> They are so used to being able to invent anything in a fantasy world that
> they did the same thing whenever they were writing about something in the
> real world that they didn't know about. It was one of those novels that is
> so stunningly awful that I actually read the entire thing, mesmerized by
> the sustained level of terribleness. Adequate words fail me.

I had a similar reaction to his Running With the Demon trilogy. The
first book was very promising, but then he didn't develop the character
of Nest Freemark at all, even though she aged from a child to an adult in
the three books. It was very disappointing.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Larry Caldwell

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 6:44:10 PM6/27/03
to
ebro...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell) writes:

> Maybe you could say that such writers have been "eaten by the shark"
> instead, since they seem to be spending all their time circling ... and
> circling ... and circling ... :-)

<grin>

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

W. Citoan

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 8:46:54 PM6/27/03
to
On 27 Jun 2003 18:40:51 GMT, Don D'Ammassa wrote:
>
> Actually, the Eddings just wrote a contemporary horror/suspense
> novel, Regina's Song. Unfortunately, it was incredibly,
> embarassingly, awful. They are so used to being able to invent
> anything in a fantasy world that they did the same thing whenever
> they were writing about something in the real world that they didn't
> know about. It was one of those novels that is so stunningly awful
> that I actually read the entire thing, mesmerized by the sustained
> level of terribleness. Adequate words fail me.

Anybody try their _Rivan Codex_? Saw it in the library and picked it up
without bothering to look at it. I enjoyed his first two series. I
know that's not a popular opinion on this group, but, if not taken
serious, I found them pleasant enough light reading.

However, this was the first book I've given up reading based upon the
author's introduction. David Eddings came off as arrogant and rather
condescending to his fans. It left me with a bad taste.

The book is similar to Tolkien's _Silmarilion_ in intent. Since I
didn't get past the intro, I have no idea how well it did what it was
supposed to.

- W. Citoan
--
Make headway at work. Continue to let things deteriorate at home.

Craig Richardson

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 8:45:33 PM6/27/03
to
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 18:22:01 +0100, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>But authors in any genre face a problem here. You've got to test the
>envelope or go mad. Yet you are made well aware that there's plenty of
>fans out there who want more of the same -- they want to see the same
>characters acting like they did in the last book.

Mind you, that's better than the same characters acting completely
differently than they did in the last book. Sadly, this is not
uncommon. Characters growing and changing in a logical manner is what
I want, and it's something generally true in Discworld. Although
Dorfl still gets shorter shrift than he deserves (what is it with me
and rocklike/ceramic minor characters?)

--Craig


--
Managing the Devil Rays is something like competing on "Iron Chef",
and having Chairman Kaga reveal a huge ziggurat of lint.
Gary Huckabay, Baseball Prospectus Online, August 21, 2002

kat >^.^<

unread,
Jun 27, 2003, 10:02:34 PM6/27/03
to

"Bud Beckman" <b...@bud.localhost> wrote in message
news:3efba...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> Martyn Waites wrote:
> >
> > XX < Interesting how not many
> > people have mentioned crime writers here.
>
> Hmm, well motice the cross posting, duh!
>
> This'll be my only cross post as I follow rec.arts.mystery
>
> Bud


Ah, but Buddly, have you ever seen such well-behaved cross-posters? It's
kind of like a hotel hosting 2 (squints at list of ng) I mean 3 wedding
receptions, where the groups start intermingling in the nicest manner. And
you know how much you like cake!

Now I have to get back to Harry Potter V before I get spoilered more than I
already have. Kind of blanking on sharkjumpers right now; or at least until
I hit "send."

--
kat >^.^<
Rhinelander WI
Welcome to Malaria Gardens
Mosquito Rides Now Open for the season
Please hold tightly to children and small pets
You must be this big to ride


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