The Fionavar Tapestry vs. The Wheel of Time
Sean Eric Fagan
was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
to neither good nor evil
d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
of Ages
There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
Dorothy J Heydt
I think both Jordan and Kay read Tolkien before they started writing.
Dorothy J. Heydt
djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu Look! I've got my OWN brand-new account!
University of California Look! I've got my OWN same old opinions!
Berkeley (I can still get mail at coz...@garnet.berkeley.edu,
but I won't be posting from it.)
Dash Wendrzyk
|> In article <CDBpq...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
|> "I started rereading the FT today; I just reread the WoT last week. As I
|> "was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
|> "
|> "a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
|> "b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
|> "c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
|> "to neither good nor evil
|> "d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
|> "of Ages
|> "
|> "There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
|> "
|> "Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
|>
|> I think both Jordan and Kay read Tolkien before they started writing.
|>
I KNOW Kay read Tolkien because he worked with Christopher Tolkien to publish
Tolkien's unfinished works once he passed away.
dash
David Wren-Hardin
All of these are very common themes in fantasy and mythology. I think
what is happening is that both Jordan and Kay conceive of
their world as being the 'central' world, and what happens there
affects everything else. Therefore they can borrow from/use
our legends, etc. and say they are the 'central' ones.
I've seen the horn used in several series, Susan Cooper's the Dark is
Rising series off the top of my head. Tolkien had Morgoth living
under a mountain, although not sealed I believe, etc, etc.
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
S. Arrowsmith
Someone's suggested that both are Tolkien "inspired" -- but remember
that Tolkien was to a fair extent using even older mythos. In
particular, the Wild Hunt goes right back to early Celtic (I think)
mythology -- notice that May also uses it in the Saga of the Exiles,
and the image of the universe around us as a weave of threads is as
old as weaving (first thing that springs to mind is the Fates from
Classic mythology -- but there you're running into the even deeper
archetype of the triple goddess).
--
\S
SA...@phx.cam.ac.uk | There's nowt |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
ubc...@ucl.ac.uk | so queer as |"When my self-esteem is sinking,
| folk.... |"I like to be liked" -- Peter Gabriel
Pam Korda
J Heydt) writes:
|> In article <CDBpq...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com>
wrote:
|> "I started rereading the FT today; I just reread the WoT last week. As I
|> "was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
|> "
|> "a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
|> "b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
|> "c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
|> "to neither good nor evil
|> "d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
|> "of Ages
|> "
|> "There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
|> "
|> "Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
|>
|> I think both Jordan and Kay read Tolkien before they started writing.
*sigh* i get rather tired of all this "in the beginning...the earth was
without form & void...and Tolkien said 'let there be Fantasy, and there was
fantasy...and tolkien saw that it was good' sort of thing. Although Tolkien
does have an important place in the history of fantasy writing, and has
doubtlessly influenced many a writer, it is an extreme over-simplification
to attribute all such common themes to "tolkien-rip-offs" or, more politely,
"derivative of tolkien."
The concepts and themes prevalent in "epic fantasy" are thousands of years
old, and can be found in many ancient myths & legends. in particular,
consider Norse mythology. here we find many of the themes claimed as
"tolkien-esque." Tolkien's gods (i don't recall what he calls them,
offhand; my copy of _the silmarillion_ is currently packed away) are the
norse gods. the jealous-god-who-becomes-the-lord-of-evil (morgoth?, melkor?,
something like that) is Loki (who, incidentally, was locked in a cave (in a
mountain) by the other gods...hmm, sound familiar? when loki finally
escapes from his bonds, the Final Battle Between Good & Evil (aka Ragnarok)
will take place, after which a new world (age) will be born.
The very name "middle earth" is lifted straight from the norse "midgard"
(meaning, middle earth)
Fantasy elves=norse "elves of the light." from _Bulfinch's Mythology_,
"...elves of the light were exceedingly fair...they loved the
light, were kindly disposed to mankind, and generally appeared as
fair & lovely..."
Fantasy dwarves=norse "night elves"/german dwarves. _Bulfinch's_ says:
"they were particularly distinguised for a knowledge of the
mysterious powers of nature, and for the runes which they carved &
explained. they were the most skilful artificers of all created
beings, and worked in metals and in wood."
As for the classic humble-character-who-goes-on-to-great-things, i can think
of two such legendary figures off the top of my head: King Arthur & Jesus
Christ. i'm sure there are many, many more.
so, we've addressed the bad-guy-in-a-mountain point, and had a little
side-journey showing how tolkien is just as "derivative" as anybody else.
let's see, light=good dark=evil. this is pretty standard, a universal theme,
even. (in saberhagen's _empire of the east_, however, night is associated
with the greek AND norse mythologies)
the horn-->i KNOW there is a legend/myth about a horn, but i can't think of
it. if anybody knows, please tell me, it is driving me nuts trying to think
of it.
to conclude, i haven't read _the finovar tapestry_, but i am an avid reader of
Jordan's series (yes, i'm one of those people who does NOT have "jordan" in
their kill file :). i must say that there are very few tolkien similarities
in _the wheel of time_. i mean, there are surface similarities, like the
forces of good and the forces of evil battling for control of the world, and
humble-guy-makes-good, but these come from the fact that the works are both
of the same subgenre. admittedly, Tolkien was a major force in _defining_
that subgenre, but he did not _create_ any of the prevalent themes. to claim
that he did, as i have seen many posters do, is unfair to most of the other
authors who write this sort of book, and have brought many new perspectives
to these ancient, near-universal themes.
as for _the Wheel of Time_, jordan's mythological base seems to be a
combination of King Arthur legends and Christianity (in particular, Roman
Catholicism), not Tolkein, or even the original norse myths. (it's all in
the jordan FAQ, folks! i'm sure you _really_ want to read that! :)
==============================================================================
Pam Korda |"Nobody ever accused the Invid of
ko...@midway.uchicago.edu | being logical, only thorough."
ko...@tmn.com | --Robotech
==============================================================================
A Adams
>In article <CDBpq...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>"I started rereading the FT today; I just reread the WoT last week. As I
>"was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
>"
>"a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
>"b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
>"c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
>"to neither good nor evil
>"d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
>"of Ages
>"
>"There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
>"
>"Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
>
>I think both Jordan and Kay read Tolkien before they started writing.
>
2)The bits mentioned are mainly the (few) differences Kay drew to Tolkien
(particularly the Weaver at the Loom image).
--
TTFN, Zaphod (Two Heads, No Brain)*E-mail*csc...@gps.leeds.ac.uk****
************************************snail*Flat 18,26 Brudenell Road**
**Happiness is a cigar ...*********mail*Leeds,LS6 1BD,UK***********
**shoved up a smoker's arse!**********Tel*UK-0532 789237*************
Dorothy J Heydt
>
[There was fantasy long before there was Tolkien, who got most of his
material from ancient epic and legend.]
Absolutely true.
However, entirely too many fantasy writers since Tolkien have never
gone any further back than Tolkien; they miss all the neat material
that's been accumulating for ages and they base their work on Tolkien,
other Tolkien clones, and maybe D&D. And they all tend to sound alike.
Incidentally, I DO count Jordan among these.
I can't speak about Kay because I couldn't get through the first volume
of him.
Pam Korda
>However, entirely too many fantasy writers since Tolkien have never
>gone any further back than Tolkien; they miss all the neat material
>that's been accumulating for ages and they base their work on Tolkien,
>other Tolkien clones, and maybe D&D. And they all tend to sound alike.
i absolutely agree. these are the books that get hurled across the room,
smacking unpleasantly against the far wall....:)
hill...@msc.cornell.edu
>
> the horn-->i KNOW there is a legend/myth about a horn, but i can't think of
> it. if anybody knows, please tell me, it is driving me nuts trying to think
> of it.
My first thought was the Horn of Valhalla from D&D (summons berserk fighters).
I know that the warriors from Valhalla are supposed to appear and fight in
Ragnar..[however its spelled]. I'm not sure if there is a horn in that legend
somewhere. Anyway, very reminiscient of the Horn of Valere summoning
the heroes of the Ages for the Last Battle.
SEH
Neile Graham
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <1993Sep15.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>
>[There was fantasy long before there was Tolkien, who got most of his
>material from ancient epic and legend.]
>
>Absolutely true.
>
>However, entirely too many fantasy writers since Tolkien have never
>gone any further back than Tolkien; they miss all the neat material
>that's been accumulating for ages and they base their work on Tolkien,
>other Tolkien clones, and maybe D&D. And they all tend to sound alike.
>
>Incidentally, I DO count Jordan among these.
>
>I can't speak about Kay because I couldn't get through the first volume
>of him.
Part of the reason I find The Fionavar Tapestry so powerful is that Kay
does go beyond the Tolkein world to the same sources as Tolkein and to my
mind beyond. I've read a lot of folklore and mythology as well as
fantasy, and Kay is *the* best author I know at taking Celtic mythology
and working with it, not just replaying it. Just to use two of the themes
he incorporates as examples, I think he does fascinating things with the
Arthurian mythology (which I've seen so much of I can bear to read any
more, though I reread Fionavar fairly frequently) and explores The Wild
Hunt mythology far more deeply than any other contemporary author I've
seen use it (and I've probably seen over a dozen try to use this story
with varying degrees of success).
Some people say Kay is rehashing, I say he's reinventing, because he
doesn't just put the mythin in his story, he weaves it into already
established character's lives and gives each archetypal story at least one
new twist.
I think the difference is between the people who see elves in a story and
yell "Tolkein clone!" and the people who see them and say "Hmm, elves, I
wonder if this author knows the material he's working with and can do
something interesting with it." Kay does know what he's doing and makes it
new; for me the jury is still out on Jordan. I find the depth of detail
he's working with interesting, but I wish he had teamed up with a good
editor who would tell him when the detail is less than captivating.
--Neile Graham
ne...@u.washington.edu
Dorothy J Heydt
Neile Graham <ne...@stein3.u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>I think the difference is between the people who see elves in a story and
>yell "Tolkein clone!" and the people who see them and say "Hmm, elves, I
>wonder if this author knows the material he's working with and can do
>something interesting with it." Kay does know what he's doing and makes it
I'm not sure I even _got_ as far as meeting any elves in Kay. I got
maybe two-thirds of the way through his first volume [which I had heard
praised for years&years while it was out of print; it's very disappointing]
and uttered the Eight Deadly Words (tm) and dropped the book over the
side of the bed. (only _really_ bad ones get thrown against the wall.)
The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
David Wren-Hardin
>In article <277qkq$p...@news.u.washington.edu>,
>Neile Graham <ne...@stein3.u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>
>I'm not sure I even _got_ as far as meeting any elves in Kay. I got
>maybe two-thirds of the way through his first volume [which I had heard
>praised for years&years while it was out of print; it's very disappointing]
>and uttered the Eight Deadly Words (tm) and dropped the book over the
>side of the bed. (only _really_ bad ones get thrown against the wall.)
The Lios Afar (Spelling I think) are Kay's elves
>
>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>
>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
I had the opposite reaction. I cared about these characters as much or more
than any characters in any book I've ever read, much less any fantasy book.
To each their own ! :-)
>
>
>Dorothy J. Heydt
>djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu Look! I've got my OWN brand-new account!
>University of California Look! I've got my OWN same old opinions!
>Berkeley (I can still get mail at coz...@garnet.berkeley.edu,
> but I won't be posting from it.)
Dave Schweisguth
: In article <1993Sep15.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
: [There was fantasy long before there was Tolkien, who got most of his
: material from ancient epic and legend.]
:
: Absolutely true.
:
: However, entirely too many fantasy writers since Tolkien have never
: gone any further back than Tolkien; they miss all the neat material
: that's been accumulating for ages and they base their work on Tolkien,
: other Tolkien clones, and maybe D&D. And they all tend to sound alike.
And the latter two are redundant.
Cheers,
--
| Dave Schweisguth Yale MB&B & Chemistry Net: d...@neutron.chem.yale.edu |
| Lab phone: 203-432-5208 Fax: 203-432-6144 Home phone: 203-624-3866 |
| For complying with the NJ Right To Know Act: Contents partially unknown. |
buli...@puma.litc.lockheed.com
(Dorothy J Heydt) writes...
>In article <277qkq$p...@news.u.washington.edu>,
>Neile Graham <ne...@stein3.u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>
>>I think the difference is between the people who see elves in a story and
>>yell "Tolkein clone!" and the people who see them and say "Hmm, elves, I
>>wonder if this author knows the material he's working with and can do
>>something interesting with it." Kay does know what he's doing and makes it
>>new; ....
>
>I'm not sure I even _got_ as far as meeting any elves in Kay. I got
>maybe two-thirds of the way through his first volume [which I had heard
>praised for years&years while it was out of print; it's very disappointing]
>and uttered the Eight Deadly Words (tm) and dropped the book over the
>side of the bed. (only _really_ bad ones get thrown against the wall.)
>
>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>
>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>
I got through the whole trilogy for 2 reasons:
1. I'm notoriously stubborn. I don't like to quit something once I begin.
2. I'm an optimist. I keep hoping things will get better.
Result: I regret the time I wasted reading this. It's been so long since
I read it, I can't remember if there were elves or not. I don't ever
intend to read it again, because Fault 1 will probably compel me to suffer
through the whole thing, without the sense to do likewise, that is, drop
the book (although if I were that kind of person, these books would likely
rate wall throwing) and utter the Eight Deadly Words (tm), which describe
my feelings quite succinctly.
------------------------------------------------------
Greg Buliavac
buli...@puma.litc.lockheed.com
MAY STARS LIGHT ALL THY PATHS.
AND THY PATHS, STAR TRAVELLERS.
Phil G. Fraering
>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
I like this so much I'm putting it in my .sig directory.
Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
to be a Tolkien ripoff?
--
+-----------------------+Here, all too soon the day!
|"Standard Disclaymore" |Wish the moon to fall and alter our tomorrow.
|p...@srl03.cacs.usl.edu |I should know, heaven has her way;
+-----------------------+Each one given memories to own.
Tom Weinstein
> In article <277tn4$q...@agate.berkeley.edu> djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>>
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
> I had the opposite reaction. I cared about these characters as much or more
> than any characters in any book I've ever read, much less any fantasy book.
> To each their own ! :-)
I have to second this. One of the things I like most about the Fionavar
Tapestry is the body count. It's very refreshing to find an author
who's not afraid to kill characters that readers have come to care
about. It's not gratuitous, and it gives you a real feeling of loss,
that dangerous situations really are dangerous, and that life has value.
--
TV is for selling things. Anyone who trys to tell you | Tom Weinstein
different is probably trying to sell you a TV. -- MT | to...@orac.esd.sgi.com
Joel Baxter
>djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>
>I like this so much I'm putting it in my .sig directory.
>
>Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
>anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
>to be a Tolkien ripoff?
>
Short answer: nope. I found both style and content to be refreshingly
different, from Tolkien and from the all-too-ubiquitous "generic" fantasy.
Even though P.M. was probably writing for a young audience (and nothing wrong
with that), IMHO she came up with a very pleasant sequence of books...even if
they do happen to be a trilogy. :) The major similarity to Tolkien, IMHO
again, is that the characters don't seem to be 20th-century people dropped
into a quasi-medieval world. There are <some> similarities, of course, but
as other people have pointed out on this thread, it's almost impossible to draw
on archetypal elements without going to some of the same sources that
J.R.R.T. did.
JB
David Librik
>I have to second this. One of the things I like most about the Fionavar
>Tapestry is the body count. It's very refreshing to find an author
>who's not afraid to kill characters that readers have come to care
>about. It's not gratuitous, and it gives you a real feeling of loss,
>that dangerous situations really are dangerous, and that life has value.
It most certainly was gratuitous. It was utterly, tediously predictable.
Every time any character achieved *anything*, it had to be accompanied by
some loss. The mechanicalness of it all wears you down by the second book.
(The wood sprite helps a character who was in danger of being killed? Okay,
he's got to get his ears ripped off.) I mean, the sadness of loss
accompanying success was a feature of Tolkien, but he didn't drum it into
the plot so monotonously.
The only character who I could give a flying fart about, in the whole book,
was Dave Martyniuk. Even though he too gets a stupid "problem" (how his
dad never really thought he was good enough), at least he is the only one
who doesn't whine. Jennifer, on the other hand -- as a friend of mine
succinctly put it: Jennifer is a Buffi.
Oh, OK, give Kay credit for what he did right: for anyone (like myself --
or Guy Kay) who has seriously read Tolkien's complete mythology and identifies
with some of its fundamental themes, the fate of the Elves who sailed West
comes as a crunching blow to the gut. _That_ got to me.
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
Lars Henrik Tombre
|> >In article <277qkq$p...@news.u.washington.edu>,
|> >Neile Graham <ne...@stein3.u.washington.edu> wrote:
|> >>
|> [munch]
|> >
|> >I'm not sure I even _got_ as far as meeting any elves in Kay. I got
|> >maybe two-thirds of the way through his first volume [which I had heard
|> >praised for years&years while it was out of print; it's very disappointing]
|> >and uttered the Eight Deadly Words (tm) and dropped the book over the
|> >side of the bed. (only _really_ bad ones get thrown against the wall.)
|>
|> The Lios Afar (Spelling I think) are Kay's elves
The names are VERY nordic. Lios = light (as in a light colour ), svart = black
alfar = elves in norse.
|> >The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
|> >
|> >"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
|>
|> I had the opposite reaction. I cared about these characters as much or more
|> than any characters in any book I've ever read, much less any fantasy book.
|> To each their own ! :-)
|>
|> >
|> >
|> >Dorothy J. Heydt
|> >djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu Look! I've got my OWN brand-new account!
|> >University of California Look! I've got my OWN same old opinions!
|> >Berkeley (I can still get mail at coz...@garnet.berkeley.edu,
|> > but I won't be posting from it.)
|>
|>
|> --
|> *****************************************************************************
|> David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
|> Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
|> Cats have never forgotten this.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know what I want : Slow genocide of Arsenal supporters!"
Slightly rewritten from "Weaveworld" by Clive Barker
Lars H. Tombre
Department of Chemical Engineering
Norwegian Institute of Technology
email : tom...@alkymi.unit.no
Dorothy J Heydt
<buli...@puma.litc.lockheed.com> wrote:
>In article <277tn4$q...@agate.berkeley.edu>, djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu
> (Dorothy J Heydt) writes...
>>
>>
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>>
>
>Result: I regret the time I wasted reading this....
Well, you see, I'm an old lady, and (1) I frequently can tell that an
egg is bad without eating all of it, and (2) I am aware that my time
is not unlimited.
Dorothy J Heydt
Phil G. Fraering <p...@srl05.cacs.usl.edu> wrote:
>djh...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
>>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>
>I like this so much I'm putting it in my .sig directory.
Thank you. Feel free.
>Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
>anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
>to be a Tolkien ripoff?
I did read that one all the way through. Once. Now I can't remember
what was in it and I know I gave it to the St. Vincent de Paul when
we moved. I can't remember if it was a Tolkien rip-off or not.
Now a _really_ good book, by my definition, is one that, as soon as
I have read it, I go back to page One and read it again.
The book that most recently got that treatment was _Chanur's Legacy._
The one before that was _Sorcery and Cecelia_.
David Wren-Hardin
>
>>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
>
>I like this so much I'm putting it in my .sig directory.
>
>Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
>anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
>to be a Tolkien ripoff?
No, not in the least. Did you think it was or wasn't ?
THis is one of my favorite series too. I must have read it
five times in one year in 8th grade. I read it once more in
college and still liked it. That's been awhile now, but I don't
remember any Tolkienesque stuff...
>
>--
>
>+-----------------------+Here, all too soon the day!
>|"Standard Disclaymore" |Wish the moon to fall and alter our tomorrow.
>|p...@srl03.cacs.usl.edu |I should know, heaven has her way;
>+-----------------------+Each one given memories to own.
David Wren-Hardin
>to...@orac.asd.sgi.com (Tom Weinstein) writes:
>
>>I have to second this. One of the things I like most about the Fionavar
>>Tapestry is the body count. It's very refreshing to find an author
>>who's not afraid to kill characters that readers have come to care
>>about. It's not gratuitous, and it gives you a real feeling of loss,
>>that dangerous situations really are dangerous, and that life has value.
>
>It most certainly was gratuitous. It was utterly, tediously predictable.
>Every time any character achieved *anything*, it had to be accompanied by
>some loss. The mechanicalness of it all wears you down by the second book.
I think this is true of RL though. Nothing you achieve is without cost.
>(The wood sprite helps a character who was in danger of being killed? Okay,
>he's got to get his ears ripped off.) I mean, the sadness of loss
>accompanying success was a feature of Tolkien, but he didn't drum it into
>the plot so monotonously.
>
[stuff about Dave and Jennifer (two characters) munched]
>
>Oh, OK, give Kay credit for what he did right: for anyone (like myself --
>or Guy Kay) who has seriously read Tolkien's complete mythology and identifies
>with some of its fundamental themes, the fate of the Elves who sailed West
>comes as a crunching blow to the gut. _That_ got to me.
Yeah, the elf thing was a blow, and one of the better points of the book
IMHO. I stand by my original statement, I loved these books and especially
the characters. I think Kay has matured as a writer though in Tigana.
I haven't read Song of (for ?) Arraborne yet, but will when it comes out
in paperback ( And I'm done with Jordan's Fires of Heaven :)
>
>- David Librik
>lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
Andrew C. Plotkin
Tapestry v.. Phil G. Fraering@srl05.c (584)
> Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
> anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
> to be a Tolkien ripoff?
Good god, no.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Russ Fuja
my impressions of it from when I read it several years ago
(somewhat fuzzy impressions, as a result):
Positive:
1. I though the style of the book was quite good -- archaic
writing features were worked in without being too obvious.
To me this is highly desirable in creating a straight (no
parodies) fantasy and is a talent few authors have.
2. The interworking of mythological elements was at first
interesting and well integrated in the plot, but later became
predictable and gratuitious (lets see what else we can include,
oh boy, King Arthur, what luck).
3. Kay seem to spend energy in dealing with my pet peeve in
fantasy liturature -- having the entire world and its people
totally subservient to the plot. Kay managed to create
a group of cultures which almost had some believability and
self motivation (He did this much, much better in _Tigana_).
4. Follow on to point 3, Kay wasn't afraid to put in some
arbitrary elements which weren't part of the master plot
(at least, I think I remember being impressed by this).
5. Kay invoked several times the mood of the world quite well in
his writing.
Negative:
1. Kay's characters seemed particularily derived to me -- stereotypes
fleshed out with various "life tragedies." The characters
grew some during the story, but didn't seem (to me at least) to
surpass their flatness. I suppose I noticed this because at least
Kay was trying to evolve his characters, in opposition to the staid
fantasy motif seen in so may other works.
2. The thing was just too damn predictable. I barely needed to read
the third book in the trilogy because I knew exactly (EXACTLY!!)
what was going to happen. Again, I suppose this was a result of Kay's
sticking to his mythology and carrying through the story, but I would
have liked something more dynamic. Of course, Tolkien might be
subject to criticism along this line too.
3. I guess I really didn't care much for the characters. Didn't
one of them have the stupid name Alieron? I kept seeing planes
diving everytime his name popped up.
4. I got it now -- there was a point where I was just starting to like
some of the characters (somewhere in the second book) when everyone
started to become their various archetypes and lost all "intimacy"
of action. The third book (_The Darkest Road_) moved into the tone
of a saga (without the poetry and enough imagery to make it good).
5. Weren't huge parts of this story lifted directly from Joy Chant's
_Red Moon and Black Mountain_? I remember that really bothering
me. Did anyone else notice this?
I consider Kay's newer works _Tigana_ and _Song for Arbonne_ to be much
better than _TFT_. He has overcome the need to throw every myth (and
the kitchen sink gods) into the stories and he is no longer accepting
characters garnished from 20th century college campuses.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
| Russ Fuja | fu...@eid.anl.gov | Argonne National Laboratory |
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Andrew C. Plotkin
Tapestry v.. Dave Schweisguth@neutron (855)
> : However, entirely too many fantasy writers since Tolkien have never
> : gone any further back than Tolkien; they miss all the neat material
> : that's been accumulating for ages and they base their work on Tolkien,
> : other Tolkien clones, and maybe D&D. And they all tend to sound alike.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^
> And the latter two are redundant.
Certainly not.
If a book is derivative of Tolkien, that's unfortunate. It may be a good
book, but it has a strike against it. I regard Fionavar as pretty good
even though it's heavily Tolkien-derived. The Shannara books are also
Tolkien-derived (the first one obscenely so), and I wouldn't call them
good, but they're fun light reading in spite of that.
However, if a book is derived from Tolkien *clones* (including D&D),
it's almost certainly unreadable. By me, anyway. It's the Generic
Second-Hand Fantasy Universe, and I may not throw it against the wall (I
don't like to damage walls) but I probably won't finish it either.
Andrew C. Plotkin
>>The Eight Deadly Words (tm):
>>"I don't _care_ *what* happens to these people!"
Standard Kay Disclaimer:
If you hated the Fionavar books, read _Tigana_ anyway. He doesn't make
the same mistakes. (Different ones, we can argue about :-)
This may be an unnecessary claim, but I'd hate to think that someone
missed it for a stupid reason.
Phil G. Fraering
>JB
Thanks. I was just wondering; it seemed to me that she was
able to draw on Celtic legend without sounding like
Tolkien; the Earth people or whatever are IMHO close to
the original source in mythology _without_ sounding
at all like Tolkien's elves. The more I think about it,
the more they seem to be closer to angels than Sidhe...
also, has anyone noticed that Tolkien has implied that
Eldar are inherently feminine?
Phil G. Fraering
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.arts.sf.written: 16-Sep-93 Re: The Fionavar
>Tapestry v.. Phil G. Fraering@srl05.c (584)
>> Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
>> anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
>> to be a Tolkien ripoff?
>Good god, no.
My second response:
Now would everyone please stop wining about everything being
Tolkien ripoffs?
(Now, everthing that sells a million copies... oops, forgot
Xanth. And Star Drek).
David Gibbs
>I started rereading the FT today; I just reread the WoT last week. As I
>was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
>
>a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
>b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
>c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
>to neither good nor evil
>d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
>of Ages
>
>There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
>
>Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
Is this intentional flamebait? ( 1/2 :-)
Basically, all of these are echos of legends of our world, they
are part of our mythic history and it is more likely that both
Jordan and Kay got them from other sources than that Jordan
got them from Kay.
In specifics:
a) the association of bad with dark -- this is probably the oldest,
one might suspect going back originally to our inability to see
well at night, therefor not knowing what is out at night, therefor
fearing the night and the darkness. So we populated the night
with bad things. One sees this in many diverse places in fantasy
and it is such a common thing that _The Dark Is Rising_ (by Susan
Cooper) as a title is expected to be interpreted as a novel about
the upswing of evil. (And note, this is a children's novel; that
is how common this association is. Also, it is a very good children's
novel, a Newberry (sp) award winner, and well worth reading.)
Another indication of this strong association is the terms: white magic
and black magic.
b) Another old association, or a combination of several -- underground
has long been associated with evil; mountains are inaccessible,
and anything inaccessible makes for speculation and fear, and the
theme of an old evil imprisonned and slowly making its way free
has also been around for a while.
c) Another old association, I'm not as clear on this one, but my
best guess is this is a reference to The Wild Hunt, which I
think was called by a horn sounded by a certain god. They
were definitely a wild, sometimes destructive, force but
not an evil one.
d) I think this goes back to the idea of the fates, or Norns
who weave thread of life. The is also one of the older
analogies (and nicer ones) for life, and each persons
place within it, which may be why it recurrs so often.
(If it weren't for point d, points a, b, and c actually all
have antecedents in Susan Cooper's _The Dark Is Rising_
series (5 books) -- in _The Grey King_, we have the
evil in/under the mountain setup; the Wild Hunt, and the
idea of good magic, evil magic, and unaligned magic (or
as she terms them light magic, dark magic, and wild magic.
And if I went back and read them, I could probably find
myself some weaver/thread of life references as well,
so maybe Kay and Jordan both were stealing from Susan
Cooper! :-)
-David
(dag...@qnx.com)
Mitch Gorman
>In article <CDBpq...@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan <s...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>"I started rereading the FT today; I just reread the WoT last week. As I
>"was reading _The Summer Tree_, some things just jumped out at me:
>"
>"a) the bad guys are "the Dark"
>"b) the chief bad guy is buried in/under a mountain
>"c) a mythical horn which calls fierce, legendary warriors, who are aligned
>"to neither good nor evil
>"d) the Weaver at the Loom vs. the Pattern Weaving as it wills and the Lace
>"of Ages
>"
>"There are more, I think, but I can't remember them at the moment :).
>"
>"Do you think Jordan read tFT before he started writing?
>
>
And maybe even some Mallory.
--
Mitch Gorman mgo...@telesciences.com
"For man is a giddy thing, and this is my conclusion."
"Fussily precise, incapable of saying anything of relevance to the
modern world, and dead."
Andrea L. Winkler
Tappan Wright (Islandia). That was in no way a Tolkien rip off; it was a
variant of the "envoy to different culture" story. Tappan Wright wrote
entire histories of his continent, Islandia, IN ISLANDIAN languages. He
wrote Islandian poems, literature, etc. Phenomenal, so I've heard. THe
only thing published, to my knowledge, is his main story. And that's in
very abbreviated form--only 8-900 odd pages <g>. There have been some
secondary stories written about the place, also very good. The book's a
long, slow travelogue, but worth it, IMHO. I suppose one might classify
it as SF rather than fantasy--no magic, no elves, dwarves, etc.--just a
very political island in the far south Atlantic. The detail ATW used was
incredible.
--alw
Erik Johnson
>
>Anyway, one statement I'd like to make on this thread: did
>anyone find the "Riddle-master" series by Patricia McKillip
>to be a Tolkien ripoff?
This one surprises me. It's been a while since I last read those, but I
would have considered them to be *less* influenced by Tolkien than most.
Certainly the direct trappings of Tolkien-influence are missing: elves,
dwarves, the object-quest, little people as heroes, the single opponent
that is evil incarnate, the attempts at creation of a new language, etc.
Actually, that's the one major facet of Tolkien that is frequently
overlooked - he was a philologist, and all the stories of the Silmarillion
and LOTR are originally just background for the languages he created.
Those languages (as one would expect from a philologist) are far beyond
the complexities found in any of the works that have attempted to copy
his style.
______________________________________________________________________________
Erik N. Johnson Don't believe any return address
KLA Instruments Corp. rumors. The one and only True
San Jose, CA Address is e_jo...@kla.com.
GECS d-- -p+ c+ l u+ e- m+(--)* s++/+ !n h+ f+ !g(+) w+ t@ r+@ y+(*)
Fortune presents gifts not according to the book.
When you expect flutes, it's whistles;
When you expect whistles, it's flutes. -- Dead Can Dance
sometimes a Wombat
>
> 5. Weren't huge parts of this story lifted directly from Joy Chant's
> _Red Moon and Black Mountain_? I remember that really bothering
> me. Did anyone else notice this?
Yes. Not that the parts lifted hadn't been done before elsewhere, but
as I read the Tapestry, I kept remembering RED MOON, BLACK MOUNTAIN.
It's been a while for both, tho'.
Larry "Did Chant ever write anything as good again?" Hammer
--
\ I have striven not to laugh at human actions,
L...@physics.arizona.edu \ not to weep at them, nor to hate them,
sometimes a Wombat \ but to understand them -- Spinoza
Jan Yarnot
read Fionavar. I just finished the third book this morning (I'm an old
lady too, Dorothy, but I still am usually compelled to finish books I start.)
The first book wasn't too bad, though I was wishing it were a one-off like
_Tigana_, too many different things happening. I bogged down in book two and
didn't get past one chapter for 3 days, which for me is appalling. I kept
saying to myself, why am I doing this?
The surprise to me happened this morning. I've been reading this thread so
I knew it wasn't just me (the only reason I bought the trilogy to begin with
was the high praise right here in r.a.sf.w!) and then, getting to the end, I
found myself in tears. Turns out I *did* care what happened to a few of the
characters after all.
The Arthur stuff really got to me. I really truly did *not* care. Buncha
twits. But I liked Darien and Finn and their family, if no one else.
--
Jan Yarnot, net.granny, RABbabe |Some say that cats are sneaky,
|evil and cruel.
|True, and they have other fine
CSUS depends on my every word. |qualities as well.
Erik Trulsson
sometimes a Wombat <l...@soliton.physics.arizona.edu> wrote:
>In a post up above, fu...@eid.anl.gov wrote:
>>
>> 5. Weren't huge parts of this story lifted directly from Joy Chant's
>> _Red Moon and Black Mountain_? I remember that really bothering
>> me. Did anyone else notice this?
>
>Yes. Not that the parts lifted hadn't been done before elsewhere, but
>as I read the Tapestry, I kept remembering RED MOON, BLACK MOUNTAIN.
>It's been a while for both, tho'.
>
> Larry "Did Chant ever write anything as good again?" Hammer
>--
Well ,I got the same feeling when I read the Tapestry.. or rather when I
reread it. (The first time I was too busy finishing it to compare it with
other books)
But there sure are many similarities in the books.
By the way : Has Joy Chant written any other books ? (Yes I liked _Red Moon.
Black Mountain_ quite a lot.)
Neile Graham
Erik Trulsson <t92...@gienah.tdb.uu.se> wrote:
>By the way : Has Joy Chant written any other books ? (Yes I liked _Red Moon.
> Black Mountain_ quite a lot.)
Yes, there are three other books that I know of.
In the same world as _Red Moon Black Mountain_ though focusing on
different parts of it:
_When Voiha Wakes_ (Interesting, but not quite as good as RMBM).
_Grey Mane of Morning_ (Focuses on the Plains tribes. I remember thinking
it was pretty good)
One Arthurian-type novel:
_The High Kings_ (which I hadn't expected to like much, but really enjoyed)
--Neile Graham
ne...@u.washington.edu
Elizabeth Willey
(1983), and WHEN VOIHA WAKES (1983). None of these was as popular as
RED MOON, BLACK MOUNTAIN (1970). I've never seen THE HIGH KINGS; from
the excerpt in the back of my copy of WHEN VOIHA WAKES, it appears to
be a high Arthurian set of connected tales, told in Fantasy Style.
VOIHA and GREY MANE are set in the same world as RED MOON.
Elizabeth Willey
Chuq Von Rospach
> I've never seen THE HIGH KINGS; from
I have. It's pretty good. The only chant I've read, so I can't compare.
--
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach (ch...@apple.com) *&* Member SFWA *&* Editor OtherRealms
GEnie: MAC.BIGOT *&* ABS Product Technical Support (AppleSearch & DAL)
Alink: CHUQ *&* Owner of SF Giants and Minor League baseball mailing lists
I suppose you're expecting some pithy statement here, right?
Chris Croughton
t92...@gienah.tdb.uu.se (Erik Trulsson) writes:
>By the way : Has Joy Chant written any other books ? (Yes I liked _Red Moon.
> Black Mountain_ quite a lot.)
Yes, she has written others, but I haven't seen any since 1987 (which
was when I (a) found a copy of The High Kings in the library, and (b)
never saw any of them again!). I was fascinated by her style - somewhat
archaic (perhaps 'formal' is a better term), but still very readable
IMO.
Does anyone know if her books are still in print?
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