Boromir's last words
David Cowie
scene in the film of LOTR than in the book. Someone else asked what his
words were, but no-one answered. So here they are, followed by the book
version.
(Aragorn kills the last Orc, and runs to Boromir)
B: They took the little ones.
A: Hold still.
B: Frodo. Where is Frodo?
A: I let Frodo go.
B: Then you did what I could not. I tried to take the Ring from him.
A: The Ring is beyond our reach now.
B: Forgive me. I did not see it. I have failed you all.
A: No, Boromir. You fought bravely. You have kept your honour.
(Aragorn tries to remove an arrow from Boromir)
B: Leave it. It is over. The world of Men will fall. And all will come to
darkness ... and my city to ruin.
A: I do not know what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you I will
not let the White City fall, nor our people fail.
B: Our people.
(Aragorn nods)
B: Our people.
(Aragorn puts Boromir's sword in his hand, and puts Boromir's hand to his
chest) (Enter Legolas)
B: I would have followed you, my brother. My captain. My king.
(Boromir dies)
A: Be at peace, son of Gondor.
(Aragorn kisses Boromir's forehead)
(Enter Gimli)
A: They will look for his coming from the White Tower. But he will not
return.
(A tear runs down his left cheek)
(End of scene).
.
And now, as Tolkien wrote it:
A mile, maybe, from Parth Galen in a little glade not far from the lake he
found Boromir. He was sitting with his back to a great tree, as if he was
resting. But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered
arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilt;
his horn cloven in two was at his side. Many Orcs lay slain, piled all
about him and at his feet.
Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At
last slow words came. 'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo ' he said. 'I
am sorry. I have paid.' His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty
at least lay there. 'They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken
them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them.' He paused and his eyes
closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again.
'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.'
'No!' said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have
conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall
not fall!'
Boromir smiled.
'Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?' said Aragorn.
But Boromir did not speak again.
[1] name and exact phrasing of statement forgotten.
--
David Cowie
Containment Failure + 18387:03
Dr. Dave
Thanks, David. I was the asker, and a kind person emailed me a
transcript of the movie lines last week. I compared them with the
book, and decided that there was absolutely no point in pursuing the
matter, since anyone who could prefer the movie dialog to the book has
tastes so radically different from mine that there's no common ground
for discussion.
David Tate
Craig Richardson
Heh.
From _Church & State_...
Weisshaupt: "The countess simply adores hearing about all the latest
intrigues..."
Countess: "Especially yours. They always have the ambience of cheap
melodrama about them"
Weisshaupt: "You'll find, my dear -- as you grow older -- that true
melodrama /never/ comes cheap."
--Craig
--
Craig Richardson (crichar...@worldnet.att.net)
"Then I heard the whirring of the motorized snowmen, sound[ing] like the
death rattle of very small robot lizards, and I left the seasonal aisle"
-- James Lileks, "The Bleat", 2005/10/10
Bateau
Yeah the book version is kind of crap. Who shouts "farewell!" when
they're bleeding to death. Crazy.
Gene Ward Smith
Bateau wrote:
> Yeah the book version is kind of crap. Who shouts "farewell!" when
> they're bleeding to death. Crazy.
That's nothing. Here's what Isolde says when she croaks, and she's
singing at the top of her brass lungs the whole time:
How softly and gently he smiles, how sweetly his eyes open - can you
see, my friends, do you not see it? How he glows ever brighter, raising
himself high amidst the stars? Do you not see it? How his heart swells
with courage, gushing full and majestic in his breast? How in tender
bliss sweet breath gently wafts from his lips - Friends! Look! Do you
not feel and see it? Do I alone hear this melody so wondrously and
gently sounding from within him, in bliss lamenting, all-expressing,
gently reconciling, piercing me, soaring aloft, its sweet echoes
resounding about me? Are they gentle aerial waves ringing out clearly,
surging around me? Are they billows of blissful fragrance? As they
seethe and roar about me, shall I breathe, shall I give ear? Shall I
drink of them, plunge beneath them? Breathe my life away in sweet
scents? In the heaving swell, in the resounding echoes, in the
universal stream of the world-breath - to drown, to founder -
unconscious - utmost rapture!
Lest you think there is something unusual about that, Brunnhilde says
something similar when she leaps on a horse and rides it into a fire to
burn to death.
Sea Wasp
> Lest you think there is something unusual about that, Brunnhilde says
> something similar when she leaps on a horse and rides it into a fire to
> burn to death.
>
"...Then Pal-yatchee grabs up a knife
And stabs the louse who stole his spouse
And then he stabs the lady and himself
('taint very
sanitary)
They all collapse but old Palyatchee sets up,
Then he gets up
Sings I'm dyin', I am dyin', I am dyin'
We start cryin'
'Cause to tell the truth we're dyin' too...
As the footlights fade out
We see Palyatchee laid-out
But the dagger never caused it
Palyatchee was plumb exhausted!"
-- Homer & Jethro, Pal-Yat-Chee...
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Mike Schilling
Why, I well believe
He dares to mock my nose? Ho! insolent!
(He raises his sword):
What say you? It is useless? Ay, I know
But who fights ever hoping for success?
I fought for lost cause, and for fruitless quest!
You there, who are you!--You are thousands!
Ah!
I know you now, old enemies of mine!
Falsehood!
(He strikes in air with his sword):
Have at you! Ha! and Compromise!
Prejudice, Treachery!. . .
(He strikes):
Surrender, I?
Parley? No, never! You too, Folly,--you?
I know that you will lay me low at last;
Let be! Yet I fall fighting, fighting still!
(He makes passes in the air, and stops, breathless):
You strip from me the laurel and the rose!
Take all! Despite you there is yet one thing
I hold against you all, and when, to-night,
I enter Christ's fair courts, and, lowly bowed,
Sweep with doffed casque the heavens' threshold blue,
One thing is left, that, void of stain or smutch,
I bear away despite you.
(He springs forward, his sword raised; it falls from his hand; he staggers,
falls back into the arms of Le Bret and Ragueneau.)
ROXANE (bending and kissing his forehead):
'Tis?. . .
CYRANO (opening his eyes, recognizing her, and smiling):
MY PANACHE.
Michael Hellwig
<snip Boromirs last lines from movie and book>
And then of course there is:
Day 35:
Killed by orcs.
Stupid orcs.
--
Michael Hellwig aka The Eye olymp.idle.at admin
to contact me via email, use michael...@uni-ulm.de
don't hesitate to look at http://laerm.or.at
Iain King
Michael Hellwig wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:54:56 +0000, David Cowie wrote:
> <snip Boromirs last lines from movie and book>
>
> And then of course there is:
> Day 35:
>
> Killed by orcs.
>
> Stupid orcs.
>
>
I thought his last line was: "Stick that up your hairless, flaccid
assholes, and tell 'em 'Boromior Sent Ya!'"
Iain
Bateau
Is there a LOTR opera yet? I saw The Hobbit done as a puppet play.
Gary E. Ansok
>
>> Yeah the book version is kind of crap. Who shouts "farewell!" when
>> they're bleeding to death. Crazy.
>
>That's nothing. Here's what Isolde says when she croaks, and she's
>singing at the top of her brass lungs the whole time:
"But that's the beauty of grand opera -- you can do anything
so long as you SING it!"
-- Gary
willre...@yahoo.com
Have to give her points for horsemanship. No one I have ever seen could
get a horse to DO that, unless the horse was trying to escape her
singing.
Will in New Haven
trike
> But Boromir did not speak again.
I can't check this because my copies of the books seem to have gone
missing in the cross-country move, but did Aragorn not know where Frodo
went?
I hated the choice they made in the movie, deciding to go after Merry
and Pippin rather than Frodo and Sam. Merry and Pippin were idiots who
deserved to die (they caused practically all the trouble the Fellowship
encountered), while Frodo was off to save the world. Regardless of
Frodo's decision to go it alone, he would be far better off with
Araorn, Legolas and Gimli by his side, which Aragorn should have known.
Aragorn following the wrong trail because of incomplete information is
far more preferable than the stupid decision to let Frodo and Sam go it
alone.
Doug
Sadok
: I hated the choice they made in the movie, deciding to go after Merry
: and Pippin rather than Frodo and Sam. Merry and Pippin were idiots who
: deserved to die (they caused practically all the trouble the Fellowship
Ah, but were it not for M&P the Ents would never have destroyed Isengard...
Mike Schilling
"trike" <dougtr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135106513.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
That's exactly the decision he made in the books; he knew that Sam and Frodo
had taken the boats and that Merry and Pippin had been taken by the orcs,
and chose to rescue the latter. See http://tinyurl.com/abd6l .
trike
>Sam and Frodo had taken the boats and that Merry and Pippin
>had been taken by the orcs, and chose to rescue the latter.
>See http://tinyurl.com/abd6l .
Ah, that's the thread Where It Was Revealed the Two Schillings are
Unrelated, which I do recall. Don't know how I missed the Aragorn bit.
Must've forgotten it or never read it, or something.
I think Aragorn's choice to go after Merry and Pippin is a bad one,
speaking big picture-wise. Along with explaining why eagles can't do a
delivery job, I would've fixed that.
Ah well, in 10 years desktop CGI programs will be so good that we can
all do our own photorealistic animated versions of our favorite books,
and we can each do an adaptation that we prefer.
Doug
Pete Granzeau
The real problem with opera is how much cutting must be done to any
work from other media (including the stage). Everything takes two to
four times as long to do in music, and you can't expect an audience to
just sit there for hour after hour...oh, wait, this discussion started
with Wagner, didn't it? Well, Wagner is the exception that tests the
rule.
Christopher Adams
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
-------
The question is whether it's pathological for a dropped egg to fall.
-------
Nothing says gritty fantasy like a whacky leprechaun knifing you in the junk.
-------
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Christopher Adams
>
> I think Aragorn's choice to go after Merry and Pippin is a bad one,
> speaking big picture-wise. Along with explaining why eagles can't do a
> delivery job, I would've fixed that.
You mean, say, by a scene where Frodo and Aragorn say without actually speaking
the words out loud that yes, Frodo should go on alone because the Ring is too
great a temptation for his companions?
--
Christopher "Yeah, that'd be a good addition to the movie" Adams - Sydney,
willre...@yahoo.com
Which "stupid decision" is demanded by the fact that only Frodo and Sam
can deal with the temptation of the One Ring. This is a central point
of the story and it is the reason that the trilogy is not just one
adventure of the Fellowship after another. Aragorn had information that
you ignored.
Will in New Haven
--
>
> Doug
Mark Blunden
>> That's exactly the decision he made in the books; he knew that
>> Sam and Frodo had taken the boats and that Merry and Pippin
>> had been taken by the orcs, and chose to rescue the latter.
>> See http://tinyurl.com/abd6l .
>
> Ah, that's the thread Where It Was Revealed the Two Schillings are
> Unrelated, which I do recall. Don't know how I missed the Aragorn
> bit. Must've forgotten it or never read it, or something.
>
> I think Aragorn's choice to go after Merry and Pippin is a bad one,
> speaking big picture-wise. Along with explaining why eagles can't do
> a delivery job, I would've fixed that.
I thought the film did a good job of fixing that. It made it quite clear
that Boromir was not the weakest-willed of the party, merely the first one
the Ring fixed its power on, and that it would seduce the others in turn,
given the chance.
In his last meeting with Frodo, Aragorn understood that, and though he stood
firm against the Ring's temptation - once - he had the good sense to be very
wary of it.
--
Mark.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person Pete Granzeau <pgra...@cox.net> said
<snip>
>The real problem with opera is how much cutting must be done to any
>work from other media (including the stage). Everything takes two to
>four times as long to do in music, and you can't expect an audience to
>just sit there for hour after hour...oh, wait, this discussion started
>with Wagner, didn't it? Well, Wagner is the exception that tests the
>rule.
Wagner = Extruded Opera Product. 8>.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.
Alan Baker
an...@alumni.caltech.edu (Gary E. Ansok) wrote:
LOL
"The opera begins in the Rhine... ...*in* it."
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
John Schilling
says...
>
>> 'Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?' said Aragorn.
>> But Boromir did not speak again.
>
>I can't check this because my copies of the books seem to have gone
>missing in the cross-country move, but did Aragorn not know where Frodo
>went?
>
>I hated the choice they made in the movie, deciding to go after Merry
>Aragorn following the wrong trail because of incomplete information is
>far more preferable than the stupid decision to let Frodo and Sam go it
>alone.
In the books, Aragorn and company correctly deduced that Frodo and Sam
had set out alone for Mordor and did not want to be followed, in part
by observing that Frodo and Sam were gone, one of their boats was on
the far (i.e. Mordor) side of the river, and all of their other boats
had been sabotaged. Plus other circumstantial evidence.
In the movie, Aragorn and company correctly deduced that Frodo and Sam
had set out alone for Mordor and did not want to be followed, by noting
that Frodo had just told Aragorn "I am heading out alone for Mordor and
do not want to be followed". Plus other circumstantial evidence.
In both movie and book, Aragorn and company respected Frodo's request
that he not be followed to Mordor (except by Sam). The book gave him,
"we don't have any more boats" as an excuse, but, well, Aragorn. Lack
of a boat is an excuse, not a reason, and I don't think Aragorn ever
suggested otherwise.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Mike Schilling
news:do9u...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> In the books, Aragorn and company correctly deduced that Frodo and Sam
> had set out alone for Mordor and did not want to be followed, in part
> by observing that Frodo and Sam were gone, one of their boats was on
> the far (i.e. Mordor) side of the river, and all of their other boats
> had been sabotaged. Plus other circumstantial evidence.
>
> In the movie, Aragorn and company correctly deduced that Frodo and Sam
> had set out alone for Mordor and did not want to be followed, by noting
> that Frodo had just told Aragorn "I am heading out alone for Mordor and
> do not want to be followed". Plus other circumstantial evidence.
>
Since "company" is 50% Gimli, the movie had to reduce by at least that the
amount of brain-work required to draw that conclusion.
Thomas Schoene
> In both movie and book, Aragorn and company respected Frodo's request
> that he not be followed to Mordor (except by Sam). The book gave him,
> "we don't have any more boats" as an excuse, but, well, Aragorn. Lack
> of a boat is an excuse, not a reason, and I don't think Aragorn ever
> suggested otherwise.
>
>
No, it doesn't. I the book they send Boromir over the falls in a boat
piled high with the weapons of his foes, and with his cleft horn on his
breast. And they use a second boat to tow him out to mid-stream for the
funeral.
As he decides which way to go Aragorn's speech is this:
"I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but
if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon captives to torment
and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is
in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that
remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength yet."
So he concludes that he cannot easily find Sam and Frodo on the far
shore. No surprise; he's given them a couple of hours head start by
taking the time to send off Boromir. Read that how you will.
--
Tom Schoene tasc...@earthlink.invalid
To email me, replace "invalid" with "net"
mec...@yahoo.com
Thomas Schoene wrote:
>John Schilling wrote:
>>In both movie and book, Aragorn and company respected
>>Frodo's request that he not be followed to Mordor
>>(except by Sam). The book gave him, "we don't have
>>any more boats" as an excuse, but, well, Aragorn.
>>Lack of a boat is an excuse, not a reason, and I don't
>>think Aragorn ever suggested otherwise.
>No, it doesn't. I the book they send Boromir over the
>falls in a boat piled high with the weapons of his foes,
>and with his cleft horn on his breast. And they use a
>second boat to tow him out to mid-stream for the funeral.
>As he decides which way to go Aragorn's speech is this:
>"I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him
>to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I
>must abandon captives to torment and death. My heart
>speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is
>in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part.
>Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while
>we have strength yet."
>So he concludes that he cannot easily find Sam and Frodo
>on the far shore.
Not necessarily. He concludes that he must choose
between tracking Frodo or the captives. He can't go
after both. Perhaps he could track down Frodo, but if
he does then he is commited to continuing with him
to the end. That leaves no hope for the captives.
>No surprise; he's given them a couple
>of hours head start by taking the time to send off
>Boromir. Read that how you will.
As I read it, it's an example of how Aragorn is a very
human character. Regardless of his noble blood, he's
not imbued with superhuman knowledge, judgement, and
wisdom (like Gandalf). He's just a fallible human who
isn't always sure of the right thing to do.
It takes Aragorn some time to decide what the next
course of action should be. I don't think they delay
because they feel a need to tend to Boromir's body.
I think they tend to Boromir's body because Aragorn
needs time to decide what to do.
Ultimately, Aragorn makes a _human_ decision. He
decides with his heart, not his head. A cold analysis
would conclude that Sam and Frodo are in at least as
much overall mortal danger as Merry and Pippin, and
that furthermore the fate of many more rest on their
mission. But to a human heart, Sam and Frodo's peril
feels remote and hopeful, whereas Merry and Pippin's
peril is immediate and hopeless.
IMHO, Aragorn of the books was already ridden with
sufficient angst to fit in with modern movie hero
sensitibilities, even without "enhancing" the story
with "improvements".
Isaac Kuo
Tony Zbaraschuk
trike <dougtr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 'Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?' said Aragorn.
>> But Boromir did not speak again.
>
>I can't check this because my copies of the books seem to have gone
>missing in the cross-country move, but did Aragorn not know where Frodo
>went?
Not at that point in the book -- he's tracking Frodo uphill, hears the
Orc attack, breaks off to deal with the immediate threat, learns from
Boromir that the Orcs have taken "the Halflings" (but no names mentioned),
and so asks Boromir if Frodo was there.
Later on he uses Ranger-fu to figure out that Sam and Frodo have taken
a boat. (The movie compresses that rather a lot, but gets right the
basic point that Aragorn knows that Frodo is on the way to Mordor
before he chooses whether to follow Frodo or track the captive Merry
and Pippin.)
>I hated the choice they made in the movie, deciding to go after Merry
>and Pippin rather than Frodo and Sam. Merry and Pippin were idiots who
>deserved to die (they caused practically all the trouble the Fellowship
>encountered), while Frodo was off to save the world.
Well, yes, they were, but one might note that Aragorn's compassion for
his friends set him on the track to a number of useful results, including
the rescue of Rohan, the overthrow of Saruman, the salvation of Gondor's
coasts from the Corsairs, and the victory of the Pelennor Fields.
>Regardless of
>Frodo's decision to go it alone, he would be far better off with
>Araorn, Legolas and Gimli by his side, which Aragorn should have known.
Not necessarily. Frodo's decision to go alone is partly because he
fears that the others will be overcome by the lure of the Ring, and
try to seize it as Boromir did. Aragorn probably has an inkling of
that, and despite the really wonderful film scene where he rejects
the Ring, I don't know that he could have kept that up all the way
to Mordor in the face of the Ring's growing power. He'd likely have
seized the Ring for himself, capped Gollum, and ended up as Ar-Pharazon II,
Lord of Mordor and the White Tower... Frodo is trying real hard to
avoid that, and Aragorn probably follows his thoughts at least partway.
Also note: Aragorn knows that Merry and Pippin know about the Ring,
and can project that if Saruman gets his hands on them the knowledge will
rapidly end up in Mordor. If he doesn't stop the info leak, Frodo fails
as soon as Sauron gets the word and puts a guard force on the Sammath
Naur.
Even without the calls of pity and friendship, there's a lot of
practical wisdom behind his decision.
>Aragorn following the wrong trail because of incomplete information is
>far more preferable than the stupid decision to let Frodo and Sam go it
>alone.
Aragorn's Ranger-fu is too good to let him follow a wrong trail ;)
Tony Z
--
Despair was kudzu.
--_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
Joseph T Major
>"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote:
>
>
>Is there a LOTR opera yet? I saw The Hobbit done as a puppet play.
>
MAD Magazine did one, but I don't think that counts.
Joseph T Major
--
"Yrlsqb nx sobshuggum illingoon. Mark my words!"
-- Cyril Q. Kornbluth
mec...@yahoo.com
Tony Zbaraschuk wrote:
> Also note: Aragorn knows that Merry and Pippin know about the Ring,
> and can project that if Saruman gets his hands on them the knowledge will
> rapidly end up in Mordor. If he doesn't stop the info leak, Frodo fails
> as soon as Sauron gets the word and puts a guard force on the Sammath
> Naur.
> Even without the calls of pity and friendship, there's a lot of
> practical wisdom behind his decision.
Aragorn's decision was the right one, for many reasons as it
turned out. In particular, his pursuit of Merry and Pippin ends
up distracting both Saruman's and Sauron's attentions far away
from the true location of the Ring. It couldn't have been planned
any better, even if Gandalf had callously allowed Merry and
Pippin to join the Fellowship in a calculated plan to use them
as bait.
But the actual reason Aragorn chooses to go after Merry and
Pippin instead of Frodo and Sam is much simpler--his human
compassion for the hapless captives. It's a recurring theme
in LotR for characters to do things because of their hearts
which turn out to be right even if they seem illogical.
Isaac Kuo
Dr. Dave
> Thomas Schoene wrote:
>
> >So he concludes that he cannot easily find Sam and Frodo
> >on the far shore.
>
> Not necessarily. He concludes that he must choose
> between tracking Frodo or the captives. He can't go
> after both. Perhaps he could track down Frodo, but if
> he does then he is commited to continuing with him
> to the end. That leaves no hope for the captives.
That means more than just "Nice hobbits get hurt." See below.
> >No surprise; he's given them a couple
> >of hours head start by taking the time to send off
> >Boromir. Read that how you will.
[...]
> Ultimately, Aragorn makes a _human_ decision. He
> decides with his heart, not his head. A cold analysis
> would conclude that Sam and Frodo are in at least as
> much overall mortal danger as Merry and Pippin, and
> that furthermore the fate of many more rest on their
> mission.
A cold analysis would also conclude that Merry and Pippin are about to
be Made To Talk, and that they will blab everything about the Ring, its
Bearer, the Quest, the Fellowship, etc. Preventing that increases
Frodo's chances tremendously. (IIRC, at this point the Fellowship did
not yet know that Saruman was an orc-lord, and assumed that the orcs
who captured the hobbits would be working for Sauron.)
I think you can make a case that it wasn't unreasonable for Aragorn to
conclude that Frodo was in more immediate peril from Merry and Pippin's
capture than he was from continuing the quest with just Sam. Long
term, though, he had to balance how vulnerable the two of them were
(with Gollum on the prowl) against the lure of the Ring on the company.
Pretty much sucked to be Aragorn just then, and you can certainly
understand his whinging a few chapters later about how all of his
decisions have gone wrong of late.
David Tate
Damien Neil
> trike <dougtr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Later on he uses Ranger-fu to figure out that Sam and Frodo have taken
> a boat. (The movie compresses that rather a lot, but gets right the
> basic point that Aragorn knows that Frodo is on the way to Mordor
> before he chooses whether to follow Frodo or track the captive Merry
> and Pippin.)
And he also knows *why* Frodo is on the way to Mordor--that the Ring had
corrupted Boromir, and Frodo decided that he couldn't risk traveling in
the company of others. Aragorn might have preferred to continue with
Frodo, but wasn't willing to push the point. Especially since pushing
the point would be playing to the Ring's strengths. ("That Hobbit can't
bear this burden. He needs you. You're stronger than him. How can he
resist my call? You, on the other hand, you'd never listen to me. You
should relieve him of this task...")
Offering the Ringbearer unwanted "help" is almost certainly a sure-fire
way to doom yourself.
> >I hated the choice they made in the movie, deciding to go after Merry
> >and Pippin rather than Frodo and Sam. Merry and Pippin were idiots who
> >deserved to die (they caused practically all the trouble the Fellowship
> >encountered), while Frodo was off to save the world.
>
> Well, yes, they were, but one might note that Aragorn's compassion for
> his friends set him on the track to a number of useful results, including
> the rescue of Rohan, the overthrow of Saruman, the salvation of Gondor's
> coasts from the Corsairs, and the victory of the Pelennor Fields.
They were *in the movies*. In the books, they were stalwart heroes--not
on the level of Aragorn or Gandalf, of course, but solid, stable, and
gamely doing their best even when out of their depth. If it wasn't for
them, Frodo and the Ring would never have reached Rivendell.
The movies rather systematically cast them in a worse light, however:
They stumble on Frodo and Sam leaving the Shire, rather than having
prepared for departure for months in advance. One of them tosses a rock
in the late at the gates of Moria and stirs the watcher, rather than
Boromir. And Pippin's admittedly foolish but ultimately harmless act of
dropping a rock down a well is magnified into a cacophonous catastrophe
that directly leads to Gandalf's death.
- Damien
Mark_R...@hotmail.com
> JACK VINCENNES: Rollo . . . Tommasi . . .
I like to imagine Spacey breaking up everybody on the first take by
saying Keyser....Soze...
John Schilling
says...
>
>John Schilling wrote:
>
>> In both movie and book, Aragorn and company respected Frodo's request
>> that he not be followed to Mordor (except by Sam). The book gave him,
>> "we don't have any more boats" as an excuse, but, well, Aragorn. Lack
>> of a boat is an excuse, not a reason, and I don't think Aragorn ever
>> suggested otherwise.
>No, it doesn't. I the book they send Boromir over the falls in a boat
>piled high with the weapons of his foes, and with his cleft horn on his
>breast. And they use a second boat to tow him out to mid-stream for the
>funeral.
You know, you're absolutely right. Frodo and Sam do discuss knocking
holes in the surplus boats at the end of _Fellowship_, but that book
concludes without their actually doing it. And early in _Two Towers_,
Aragorn and company do come up with two boats for Boromir's funeral,
so apparently Frodo & Sam never got around to that part of the plan.
To the limited extent that it was a plan; they were pretty clearly
making it up as they went along.
Somehow, I never caught that.
Doesn't change the underlying logic, though. Aragorn knows that Frodo
and Sam don't want to be followed into Mordor on account of obvious
Fellowship ring-corruption issues, and respects that decision rather
than hunting them down.
John Schilling
says...
>
>A cold analysis would also conclude that Merry and Pippin are about to
>be Made To Talk, and that they will blab everything about the Ring, its
>Bearer, the Quest, the Fellowship, etc. Preventing that increases
>Frodo's chances tremendously. (IIRC, at this point the Fellowship did
>not yet know that Saruman was an orc-lord, and assumed that the orcs
>who captured the hobbits would be working for Sauron.)
Nit, not really changing the conclusion, but I just had occasion to
reread that chapter, and the discovery that Saruman is an orc-lord is
concurrent with the decision to go off in pursuit of Merry and Pippin.
Aragorn figures out what Frodo and Sam are up to, and does not head
right off in pursuit of them, so he's at least tenatively decided not
to do that. Orc-helmets are found with an "S" rune on them, with the
"S for Sauron" interpretation dismissed on the basis that the rune is
white and Elvish. That's known to be Saruman's style. Then Aragorn
and company decide explicitly to go off after Merry and Pippin.
Not only doesn't this change the conclusion, it reinforces it. If
it were Sauron's orcs who had Merry and Pippin, there would be little
point in chasing them *west*. Sauron's orcs would need to double back
to the east, and could best be intercepted by staying near the river.
trike
>without actually speaking the words out loud that yes, Frodo
>should go on alone because the Ring is too
>great a temptation for his companions?
Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
resistance?
Doug
Gene Ward Smith
trike wrote:
> Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
> resistance?
They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
than you or I.
trike
>> decides with his heart, not his head. A cold analysis
>> would conclude that Sam and Frodo are in at least as
>> much overall mortal danger as Merry and Pippin, and
>> that furthermore the fate of many more rest on their
>> mission.
I can buy the human thing, but it seems rather unkingly of him, which
is what I keep sticking on. Allowing Merry and Pippin to suffer their
undoubtedly soon-to-be-gruesome fates would be hard and haunt him to
the end of his days, but Frodo's mission was intended to save everyone
in the whole of Middle Earth.
>A cold analysis would also conclude that Merry and Pippin are
>about to be Made To Talk, and that they will blab everything
>about the Ring, its Bearer, the Quest, the Fellowship, etc.
>Preventing that increases Frodo's chances tremendously.
>(IIRC, at this point the Fellowship did not yet know that Saruman
>was an orc-lord, and assumed that the orcs who captured the
>hobbits would be working for Sauron.)
>
>I think you can make a case that it wasn't unreasonable for
>Aragorn to conclude that Frodo was in more immediate peril
>from Merry and Pippin's capture than he was from continuing
>the quest with just Sam. Long term, though, he had to balance
>how vulnerable the two of them were (with Gollum on the prowl)
>against the lure of the Ring on the company. Pretty much
>sucked to be Aragorn just then, and you can certainly
>understand his whinging a few chapters later about how all
>of his decisions have gone wrong of late.
Wouldn't Tolkien have just _said_ that, though? He lets us in on all
the other mental soliloquies, so why not that? Or did he? Jeez, too
bad my copies went missing -- I'd really like to re-read this part.
I don't think we can count the fact that Aragorn ultimately made the
right decision because he ended up at these other battles, because
that's how Tolkien wanted the story to go. It's not like Hitler
reining in Rommel, thus allowing the Normandy invasion to succeed;
Aragorn is a fictional character (I hope) who was set up to engage in
some epic derring-do. That he ultimately does that daring stuff
shouldn't be all that surprising.
Oh well, Aragorn can have it as a win, even though I'd have him do
something different.
Doug
Niall McAuley
> I don't think we can count the fact that Aragorn ultimately made the
> right decision because he ended up at these other battles, because
> that's how Tolkien wanted the story to go.
No, that's how God, sorry, Providence wanted it to go. In Tolkien's
world if you make decisions for the right reasons, even bad tactical
or bad strategic decisions, Providence may reward you.
Aragorn decides to follow Merry and Pippin because he won't
give up the little guys to torture and death, and because of that
decision, Rohan and Gondor are saved.
Frodo pities Gollum, and because of that Sauron is defeated.
--
Niall
William George Ferguson
The first (the conspiracy among Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Fatty Bolger) is
true, and shows Merry and Pippin in a considerably better light, but even
in the film, Merry doesn't come off badly after the initial bit in the
Shire. Pippin, the youngest member of the company, even for his race,
makes as many foolish plot-driving mistakes in the book as in the movie.
Pippin throwing the rock down the well was not an ultimately harmless
act. It wasn't as closely connected in time as in the movie (which was
likely mostly a need to compress the storytelling for the movie), but in
the book as in the movie, it woke the Balrog.
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
lclough
And Pippin's admittedly foolish but ultimately harmless act of
> dropping a rock down a well is magnified into a cacophonous catastrophe
> that directly leads to Gandalf's death.
>
This, at least, was suggested in the book. Pippin drops a
pebble into a well, and gradually strange noises are heard,
becoming louder. (It was scarier in the book, too.)
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
Michael S. Schiffer
news:64pjq1tvc3833q8je...@4ax.com:
>...
> Pippin throwing the rock down the well was not an ultimately
> harmless act. It wasn't as closely connected in time as in the
> movie (which was likely mostly a need to compress the
> storytelling for the movie), but in the book as in the movie, it
> woke the Balrog.
It provoked a hammering sound in response, which sounds more like Orc
signals than the Balrog. It probably didn't help matters, but they
weren't ambushed for two days and more than fifteen miles afterwards,
during which they weren't utterly silent. (It was still a dumb thing
to do-- it just didn't bring about nearly as big or immediate or
certain a result as in the movie.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Damien Neil
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
> > Pippin throwing the rock down the well was not an ultimately
> > harmless act. It wasn't as closely connected in time as in the
> > movie (which was likely mostly a need to compress the
> > storytelling for the movie), but in the book as in the movie, it
> > woke the Balrog.
>
> It provoked a hammering sound in response, which sounds more like Orc
> signals than the Balrog. It probably didn't help matters, but they
> weren't ambushed for two days and more than fifteen miles afterwards,
> during which they weren't utterly silent. (It was still a dumb thing
> to do-- it just didn't bring about nearly as big or immediate or
> certain a result as in the movie.)
Right.
I find it really hard to believe that it was directly responsible for
the Fellowship being jumped by Orcs and a Balrog later on, given the
amount of time that elapsed between the two events.
The Orc attack came while the Fellowship was investigating Balin's tomb.
The journal they found there clearly indicated that the last survivors
of Balin's expedition made their final stand there. It's reasonable
that the Orc presence would be concentrated in that area. The
Fellowship was probably spotted by a scout or lookout as they neared the
tomb.
Pippin's stone definitely didn't "wake the Balrog". The Balrog was
quite awake already, as Balin & co. learned to their sorrow.
- Damien
Damien Neil
"trike" <dougtr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"But why should he leave us behind, and without a word?" said Gimli."
"That was a strange deed!"
"Maybe hunting Orcs came on him and he fled," said Legolas.
"He fled, certainly," said Aragorn. "But not, I think, from Orcs."
What he thought was the cause of Frodo's sudden resolve and flight
Aragorn did not say. The last words of Boromir he long kept secret.
So Aragorn clearly has Boromir's corruption on his mind at this point.
Then:
"Our choice then," said Gimli, "is either to take the remaining boat
and follow Frodo, or else to follow the Orcs on foot. There is little
hope either way. We have already lost precious hours."
"Let me think!" said Aragorn. "And now may I make a right choice,
and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!" He stood silent for a
moment. "I will follow the Orcs," he said at last. "I would have
guided Frodo to Mordor and guided him to the end; but if I seek him
now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and
death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in
my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that
remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left.
Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will
press on by day and dark!"
I think the key phrase is: "The fate of the Bearer is in my hands no
longer." Aragorn doesn't go into why he believes this, but he thinks
that he's played his part. He'd have been willing to see the Ring all
the way to Mount Doom, but Providence had different ideas. Time for him
to salvage what he can and rescue Merry and Pippin.
Note that this echoes with Gandalf's speech about mercy sparing Gollum's
life, and how Gollum may yet have a role to play: In Middle Earth, doing
the right thing (as opposed to the tactically correct thing) is a
winning strategy.
And, of course, Aragorn's choice turned out to be the right one.
- Damien
Chris Kuan
Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The One.
--
Chris
Concatenate for email: mrgazpacho @ hotmail . com
westprog
"Chris Kuan" <lo...@sig.because.this.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9735BAA198mrg...@203.59.27.131...
> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote on Thu 22 Dec 2005 09:39:38a
> >> Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
> >> resistance?
> > They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
> > than you or I.
> Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The One.
And the consequences of Aragorn getting the ring would be far worse than if
almost anyone else but Gandalf got it. Maybe even worse than Gandalf. He
would have been the returning King of Gondor, with the power to defeat
Sauron, or at least achieve stalemate. He would have been corrupted, and the
whole of Middle Earth would have been lost.
J/
Sea Wasp
> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote on Thu 22 Dec 2005 09:39:38a
>
>
>>trike wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
>>>resistance?
>>
>>They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
>>than you or I.
>>
>>
>
>
> Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The One.
>
My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
westprog
The only character in LOTR who was immune to the ring was Bombadil. He
genuinely had no interest in it. Everyone else was subject to it.
Ultimately, nobody was strong enough to resist it - except for one person.
Aragorn and Legolas would have been particularly prone to temptation.
J/
John Schilling
says...
>
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in
>> >...
>> > Pippin throwing the rock down the well was not an ultimately
>> > harmless act. It wasn't as closely connected in time as in the
>> > movie (which was likely mostly a need to compress the
>> > storytelling for the movie), but in the book as in the movie, it
>> > woke the Balrog.
>>
>> It provoked a hammering sound in response, which sounds more like Orc
>> signals than the Balrog. It probably didn't help matters, but they
>> weren't ambushed for two days and more than fifteen miles afterwards,
>> during which they weren't utterly silent. (It was still a dumb thing
>> to do-- it just didn't bring about nearly as big or immediate or
>> certain a result as in the movie.)
>Right.
>I find it really hard to believe that it was directly responsible for
>the Fellowship being jumped by Orcs and a Balrog later on, given the
>amount of time that elapsed between the two events.
>The Orc attack came while the Fellowship was investigating Balin's tomb.
>The journal they found there clearly indicated that the last survivors
>of Balin's expedition made their final stand there. It's reasonable
>that the Orc presence would be concentrated in that area.
Except that there was absolutely no indication of any pre-existing
concentration of Orcs there, and there were explicit indications of
Orc activity in the deep mines, beginning immediately after Pippin's
rock-throwing incident and progressively increasing in scope and
decreasing in range.
It is difficult to read this as anything but, "the thrown rock woke up
the Orcs, and they went to find whoever threw the rock".
>The Fellowship was probably spotted by a scout or lookout as they
>neared the tomb.
A conjecture for which, again, there is no evidence.
>Pippin's stone definitely didn't "wake the Balrog". The Balrog was
>quite awake already, as Balin & co. learned to their sorrow.
Learned that it was quite awake already, or woke the damn thing
themselves?
Balin and company spent a lot more time in Moria than the Fellowship
ever did, and made a lot more noise, without running into the Balrog
or the Orcs. Mucking about in the upper layers, doesn't seem to cause
problems. Poking around deep under the mountain, repeatedly does.
Pippin woke the damn Balrog, and its attendant Orcs[1], which had settled
down for a nice long snooze after a full meal of Dwarf. And it didn't
take the movie to convey that message. Fool of a Took.
[1] I don't think there's any way to make that sequence work, in either
incarnation, without assuming that Orcs can hibernate or estivate or
some such.
Shadow Wolf
news:43AAB010...@obvioussgeinc.com:
> Chris Kuan wrote:
>> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote on Thu 22 Dec 2005
>> 09:39:38a
>>
>>
>>>trike wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
>>>>resistance?
>>>
>>>They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
>>>than you or I.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The
>> One.
>>
>
> My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
>
No, no, she liked Jet Li.
--
Shadow Wolf
shadowolf3400 at yahoo dot com
Stories at http://www.asstr.org/~Shadow_Wolf
AIF at http://www.geocities.com/shadowolf3400
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Mike Schilling
"John Schilling" <schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote in message
news:doepj...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Pippin woke the damn Balrog, and its attendant Orcs[1],
I am not a Balrog, nor was meant to be.
Am an attendent Orc, one that will do
To set an ambush, eat a Dwarf or two
Dismember captives, watch them scream and cry
Homicidal, glad to hack and hew
Hairy, proganthous, and magnificent
Filled with fell bloodlust, and with something new.
At times, in fact, almost intelligent
Almost an Uruk-hai
Pete Granzeau
wrote:
>The only character in LOTR who was immune to the ring was Bombadil. He
>genuinely had no interest in it. Everyone else was subject to it.
>Ultimately, nobody was strong enough to resist it - except for one person.
>Aragorn and Legolas would have been particularly prone to temptation.
I might have rephrased your fourth sentence as "Ulitimately, no one
else was strong enough to resist it." Unless you do mean that someone
other than Bombadil can resist the ring? I'm trying to remember if
Sam ever felt tempted; Frodo failed at the penultimate instant, of
course.
westprog
"Pete Granzeau" <pgra...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rltlq1p8tmsum7kcc...@4ax.com...
Sam it was who was tempted, had the ring in his position, and didn't
succumb. He resisted it on the basis "Me rule the world - bloody
ridiculous". Aragorn really could have ruled the world, and hence was far
more liable. Gollum couldn't have done anything with the ring (indeed,
didn't) but didn't have the strength of character to hold out against it.
Frodo nearly did.
If Sam had been given the ring in the first place, he might not have done so
well. Still, he was with Frodo for a long time after trying it on, and he
never felt drawn towards it.
J/
Taki Kogoma
<shadow...@NOSPAMyahoo.invalid> allegedly declared to rec.arts.sf.written...
>Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote in
>news:43AAB010...@obvioussgeinc.com:
>> Chris Kuan wrote:
>>> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote on Thu 22 Dec 2005
>>> 09:39:38a
>>>>trike wrote:
>>>>>Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
>>>>>resistance?
>>>>
>>>>They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
>>>>than you or I.
>>>
>>> Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The
>>> One.
>>
>> My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
>
>No, no, she liked Jet Li.
Not Michael O'Hare?
Gym "Hrm. Or was it Bruce Boxleitner? Good excuse to watch the
episode again..." Quirk
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.
Michael Alan Chary
Faramir resisted it. Infact, I always thought that was what he and Tom
Bombadil were doing in the books. Showing that it was not hopeless and
that the ring could be defeated.
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
Gene Ward Smith
Michael Alan Chary wrote:
> Faramir resisted it. Infact, I always thought that was what he and Tom
> Bombadil were doing in the books. Showing that it was not hopeless and
> that the ring could be defeated.
Faramir was not exposed to it nearly so long as his brother, and was
less proud and ambitious. However, his desire to be approved by his
father, among other things, might have done him in in the end.
David L. Burkhead
even know the Ring existed, let alone had come under his hand. From
previous stuff, people who don't know about the Ring don't seem to be
tempted by it. After all, how many people tried to get the Ring from Bilbo
during the long years he had it?
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://www.coldservings.com
Updates Wednesdays
"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:1135289247....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Burkhead <dbur...@comcast.net> writes
>Faramir's exposure was, what, a few hours? And how much of that time
>did he even know the Ring existed, let alone had come under his hand.
>From previous stuff, people who don't know about the Ring don't seem to
>be tempted by it. After all, how many people tried to get the Ring
>from Bilbo during the long years he had it?
I believe that the ring was supposed to be getting more active, as
Sauron grew in power. Not many people (as far as we know) tried to get
the Ring from Gollum during the longer years he had it, either.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
westprog
"Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:dof4ea$ofm$1...@reader1.panix.com...
Faramir didn't handle it. Sam did. Faramir got Frodo out of the way ASAP
precisely for that reason.
The characters can be divided four ways - the ones who resisted - Aragorn,
Gandalf, Faramir etc - the ones who succumbed - Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - the
one who has no interest - Bombadil - and the one who carried it and gave it
back - Sam.
It's made very clear that even if Frodo held onto the ring, its presence in
Minas Tirith would be corrupting.
J/
Gene Ward Smith
westprog wrote:
> The characters can be divided four ways - the ones who resisted - Aragorn,
> Gandalf, Faramir etc - the ones who succumbed - Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - the
> one who has no interest - Bombadil - and the one who carried it and gave it
> back - Sam.
Bilbo also; and Gandalf held it on more than one occasion.
westprog
>
> westprog wrote:
>
> > The characters can be divided four ways - the ones who resisted -
Aragorn,
> > Gandalf, Faramir etc - the ones who succumbed - Gollum, Boromir, Frodo -
the
> > one who has no interest - Bombadil - and the one who carried it and gave
it
> > back - Sam.
>
> Bilbo also;
I thought of Bilbo after I posted. He voluntarily gave it up after having it
for many years - but he still had a craving for it. Still, he should be
ranked with Sam.
> and Gandalf held it on more than one occasion.
Don't think he did. He specifically asked Frodo not to give it to him. He
picked up the envelope which held it and put it on the mantelpiece, IIRC. He
also held it with tongs, but not in his hand. Still, I'll have to reread to
be sure.
He didn't carry it the way Sam and Bilbo did, though.
There's another category of course - the people who didn't have anything to
do with the ring, or who didn't see it when they met Frodo. Just added for
completeness.
J/
Mike Schilling
"westprog" <west...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dofcgm$k27$1...@news.datemas.de...
And those who were unclear on the concept:
What's all this I hear about the power of the One Wing? Birds have two
wings, and so do dragons. If they one of them was that powerful, they'd
just fly around in circles. That doesn't very impressive to me.
Christopher Adams
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>
>> JACK VINCENNES: Rollo . . . Tommasi . . .
>
> I like to imagine Spacey breaking up everybody on the first take by
> saying Keyser....Soze...
Damn straight.
--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
-------
The question is whether it's pathological for a dropped egg to fall.
-------
Nothing says gritty fantasy like a whacky leprechaun knifing you in the junk.
-------
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html
Mike Schilling
"Christopher Adams" <mhacde...@yahoo.invalid> wrote in message
news:yQGqf.87766$V7.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Mark_R...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Christopher Adams wrote:
>>
>>> JACK VINCENNES: Rollo . . . Tommasi . . .
>>
>> I like to imagine Spacey breaking up everybody on the first take by
>> saying Keyser....Soze...
>
> Damn straight.
Or belting out "Mack the Knife".
If there was a time machine handy, anyway.
Sean O'Hara
>
> The Orc attack came while the Fellowship was investigating Balin's tomb.
> The journal they found there clearly indicated that the last survivors
> of Balin's expedition made their final stand there.
Twenty-five years before the Fellowship entered Moria. It's absurd
to assume the orcs left lookouts around Balin's tomb just in case
one of the decaying corpses got up after a quarter century.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Zapp Brannigan: If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the
dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.
-Futurama
Sean O'Hara
declared:
> JACK VINCENNES: Rollo . . . Tommasi . . .
>
Adric: Now I'll never know if I'm right.
[Earth shattering ker-splat]
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Doctor: You can't be a successful criminal with a *dishonest* face.
-Doctor Who
Gene Ward Smith
westprog wrote:
> Don't think he did. He specifically asked Frodo not to give it to him. He
> picked up the envelope which held it and put it on the mantelpiece, IIRC. He
> also held it with tongs, but not in his hand. Still, I'll have to reread to
> be sure.
He only used tongs to fetch it out of the fire; otherwise, he did hold
it.
Sea Wasp
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote in
> news:43AAB010...@obvioussgeinc.com:
>
>
>>Chris Kuan wrote:
>>Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The
>>>One.
>>>
>>
>> My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
> No, no, she liked Jet Li.
>
Oh, well then, that's all right.
Sea Wasp
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:37:18 -0600, Shadow Wolf
> <shadow...@NOSPAMyahoo.invalid> allegedly declared to rec.arts.sf.written...
>
>>Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote in
>>news:43AAB010...@obvioussgeinc.com:
>>
>>>Chris Kuan wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote on Thu 22 Dec 2005
>>>>09:39:38a
>>>>
>>>>>trike wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Weren't both Aragorn and Legolas immune, or had a high degree of
>>>>>>resistance?
>>>>>
>>>>>They certainly were not immune. Probably they had better resistance
>>>>>than you or I.
>>>>
>>>>Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The
>>>>One.
>>>
>>> My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
>>
>>No, no, she liked Jet Li.
>
>
> Not Michael O'Hare?
>
> Gym "Hrm. Or was it Bruce Boxleitner? Good excuse to watch the
> episode again..." Quirk
O'Hare: Jeffrey Sinclair was the One.
Sean O'Hara
> "Gene Ward Smith" <gws...@svpal.org> wrote in message
> news:1135293435.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Don't think he did. He specifically asked Frodo not to give it to
> him. He picked up the envelope which held it and put it on the
> mantelpiece, IIRC. He also held it with tongs, but not in his
> hand. Still, I'll have to reread to be sure.
>
Didn't he hold it back in The Hobbit?
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Bender: If I don't come back, just say I died robbing some old man.
Fry: I'll tell them you went out prying the wedding ring off his
cold dead finger.
-Futurama
John Schilling
>"Michael Alan Chary" <mch...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:dof4ea$ofm$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>> >I might have rephrased your fourth sentence as "Ulitimately, no one
>> >else was strong enough to resist it." Unless you do mean that someone
>> >other than Bombadil can resist the ring? I'm trying to remember if
>> >Sam ever felt tempted; Frodo failed at the penultimate instant, of
>> >course.
>> Faramir resisted it. Infact, I always thought that was what he and Tom
>> Bombadil were doing in the books. Showing that it was not hopeless and
>> that the ring could be defeated.
>Faramir didn't handle it. Sam did. Faramir got Frodo out of the way ASAP
>precisely for that reason.
>The characters can be divided four ways - the ones who resisted - Aragorn,
>Gandalf, Faramir etc - the ones who succumbed - Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - the
>one who has no interest - Bombadil - and the one who carried it and gave it
>back - Sam.
Let's not forget the one who carried it and gave it forward - Bilbo.
Mark Blunden
It's a little more complicated than that. As I recall it:
Sinclair is The One Who Was.
Delenn is The One Who Is.
Sheridan is The One Who Will Be.
Bear in mind that it's Zathras saying this, and there are about twelve of
him. To Zathras, this isn't even tricky stuff.
Oh, and Galadriel didn't like any of them.
Except maybe Delenn.
Hmm. Galadriel and Delenn...
I'll be in my bunk.
--
Mark.
Gene Ward Smith
Dr. Dave wrote:
> [snip Boromir's last words, movie version and book version.]
>
> Thanks, David. I was the asker, and a kind person emailed me a
> transcript of the movie lines last week. I compared them with the
> book, and decided that there was absolutely no point in pursuing the
> matter, since anyone who could prefer the movie dialog to the book has
> tastes so radically different from mine that there's no common ground
> for discussion.
Even so, I find I want to ask why you think the book's version is
better.
Bill Snyder
Cf. Gandalf:
"I grow White, I grow White!
It's no wonder that my pointy hat's too tight . . ."
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Michael Alan Chary
I'm not saying Faramir was the iron willed brother and
uncorruptible. I'm saying he was exposed to the ring and let it go.
I have to wonder how Treebeard would have fared with the ring. Maybe it
would have promised him entwives or something.
Damien Neil
> Except that there was absolutely no indication of any pre-existing
> concentration of Orcs there, and there were explicit indications of
> Orc activity in the deep mines, beginning immediately after Pippin's
> rock-throwing incident and progressively increasing in scope and
> decreasing in range.
I just reread the relevant section of TTT to refresh my memory. This
turns out to not be the case.
There's a sound of a hammer from the depths immediately after Pippin
drops his rock. After that, nothing until they reach Balin's tomb two
nights later. Frodo thinks he sees eyes in the dark at one point, but
that's almost certainly Gollum.
They aren't making much of an attempt at stealth, either--Gimli sings a
song at one point. If there were any Orc scouts, they'd have had no
trouble spotting the company.
> >The Fellowship was probably spotted by a scout or lookout as they
> >neared the tomb.
>
> A conjecture for which, again, there is no evidence.
No. But there's little evidence for *any* conjecture.
> >Pippin's stone definitely didn't "wake the Balrog". The Balrog was
> >quite awake already, as Balin & co. learned to their sorrow.
>
> Learned that it was quite awake already, or woke the damn thing
> themselves?
Again, little evidence either way--but my reading has always been that
Durin's people woke the Balrog, and it's been hanging out in the depths
of Moria ever since.
I'd attribute the greater length of time it took for Balin to run into
trouble to the great span of time that Moria had stood vacant. The
Balrog was probably hanging out in the deeper depths and took some time
to realize that it had an infestation of Dwarves in the attic. When the
Fellowship arrived, Moria had been empty for only a few decades, which
isn't all that long on the time scale that Balrogs operate on.
> Pippin woke the damn Balrog, and its attendant Orcs[1], which had settled
> down for a nice long snooze after a full meal of Dwarf. And it didn't
> take the movie to convey that message. Fool of a Took.
The movie conveyed the message well, but it's a message that simply
isn't present in the book.
> [1] I don't think there's any way to make that sequence work, in either
> incarnation, without assuming that Orcs can hibernate or estivate or
> some such.
I see two questions of interest:
Where does a Balrog get a collection of Orcs and Trolls from? Were they
all hibernating in the depths when Balin got there? Did it mail order
them from Orthanc? Do Balrogs keep a pantry full of Instant Orc (just
add water!)?
And what were the Orcs eating during the interval between Balin's death
and the Fellowship's arrival, assuming they weren't all popped back into
suspended animation for the duration? I'd expect the Dwarf steaks to
run out pretty quickly, and I think they're out of Mordor Pizza's
delivery area. Are there any suitable targets for raiding in the area?
Or has there been a colony of Orcs in the Moria basement ever since
Durin's time, living on fish and foolish adventurers?
- Damien
Damien Neil
> Sea Wasp <seawasp...@obvioussgeinc.com> wrote:
> >> Heck, even The Lady Galadriel was not immune to the temptation of The
> >> One.
> >
> > My God, she liked Keanu Reeves?
>
> No, no, she liked Jet Li.
Refer not to that movie! I want those hours of my life back, damnit.
- Damien
Michael S. Schiffer
news:neild-usenet4-39E...@news.newsguy.com:
>...
> There's a sound of a hammer from the depths immediately after
> Pippin drops his rock. After that, nothing until they reach
> Balin's tomb two nights later. Frodo thinks he sees eyes in the
> dark at one point, but that's almost certainly Gollum.
> They aren't making much of an attempt at stealth, either--Gimli
> sings a song at one point. If there were any Orc scouts, they'd
> have had no trouble spotting the company.
By contrast, mature adult and experienced traveler Boromir's
carelessly tossed stone does seem to have been what attracted the
Watcher in the Water's attention. (Granted, you'd think that this
would be sufficient example for everyone else to avoid tossing
stones around for a while.)
>...
> I see two questions of interest:
> Where does a Balrog get a collection of Orcs and Trolls from?
> Were they all hibernating in the depths when Balin got there?
> Did it mail order them from Orthanc? Do Balrogs keep a pantry
> full of Instant Orc (just add water!)?
They may have grown out of the survivors of Azog's people, who had
taken over Moria the first time. They then lost the war with the
Dwarves, but since Dain's prudence stopped the Dwarves from trying
to actually reoccupy Moria then, it was an obvious refuge for the
Orcs. (Possibly later supplemented by refugees from the Battle of
Five Armies and its aftermath, since they were gone when Bilbo
returned home.)
> And what were the Orcs eating during the interval between
> Balin's death and the Fellowship's arrival, assuming they
> weren't all popped back into suspended animation for the
> duration?
Well, presumably a similar diet to what the Goblins in _The Hobbit_
were surviving on when they didn't have adventuring parties to tide
them over. (And I'm not sure that the logistics for the Mordor and
Orthanc garrisons are much better. Sure, farms in Nurnen and
Dunland, but Mordor's bases are at the end of a long supply line in
what's effectively a desert, and Dunland is unproductive even for
its inhabitants.) Orcs seem to be able to thrive in fairly vast
quantities on scanty rations-- maybe they're just too mean to
starve.
And the Dwarves have much the same problem-- were they sustaining a
large city (designed to weather sieges) by getting produce from
Lorien? Given their tendency to occasionally be at odds with their
neighbors, the Dwarves probably have to have some native food-
production capability, which suggests either prolific cave-fish,
some sort of magical underground agriculture, or the ability to
farm snowcapped Caradhras. But while there are hints here and
there, I don't think Tolkien put as much thought into logistics as
he did linguistics.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Frank Scrooby
"Damien Neil" <neild-...@misago.org> wrote in message
news:neild-usenet4->>
>> Learned that it was quite awake already, or woke the damn thing
>> themselves?
>
> Again, little evidence either way--but my reading has always been that
> Durin's people woke the Balrog, and it's been hanging out in the depths
> of Moria ever since.
It has been a long time since I've done a proper read of LoTR but doesn't
Saruman talk about the Dwarves (i.e. original occupants not Balin's co)
having delved too deep in their quest for mithril? Or is that the movie
version.
>
> I'd attribute the greater length of time it took for Balin to run into
> trouble to the great span of time that Moria had stood vacant. The
> Balrog was probably hanging out in the deeper depths and took some time
> to realize that it had an infestation of Dwarves in the attic. When the
> Fellowship arrived, Moria had been empty for only a few decades, which
> isn't all that long on the time scale that Balrogs operate on.
I dimmly remember a piece of Tolkein unfinished stuff that describes Balin
and Co. arriving at the front door of Moria to find Orc guards. Exchange of
arrows, slaying of favored sons on both sides, the Dwarfs gain entry and
then realize HOW MANY ORCS they have to kill.
Balrogs are supposed to corrupted of what ever fills the 'low to middle
ranked Angel' in Tolkein's mythology. Sauron himself is also one of these
corruptions, just the baddest bad-ass of them all, and being Morgoth's
favorite (or is that just the last corrupted being standing of Morgoth's
favorites?). Based on Sauron's constitution a Balrog should be practically
immortal, requires no food, and is as mean as a busload of disgruntled
mother-in-laws (not that my mother-in-law is anywhere nearly as bad as what
society and the popular media would have you expect) who all work for the
postal service.
Again its been a long while since I read the books.
<some of previous message snipped>
> I see two questions of interest:
>
> Where does a Balrog get a collection of Orcs and Trolls from? Were they
> all hibernating in the depths when Balin got there? Did it mail order
> them from Orthanc? Do Balrogs keep a pantry full of Instant Orc (just
> add water!)?
I got the impression that the Balrog was just the resident demonic roaming
supernatural disaster and that the Orcs were there for the same thing that
the Dwarfs had come for: mirthril. Orc mentality is that you keep out of the
way of the Balrog and you survive. If you screw up on this important rule,
throw the weakest member back and run like hell.
>
> And what were the Orcs eating during the interval between Balin's death
> and the Fellowship's arrival, assuming they weren't all popped back into
Gollum was living off fish, maybe Orcs set up underwater fisheries when they
move into places?
Of cause if someone isn't pulling his weight on the shift, he could always
have an accident, and then meat is back on the menu.
> suspended animation for the duration? I'd expect the Dwarf steaks to
Dwarfs are too tough and chewy. You need to be a troll and have a big
cauldron if you want to eat Dwarf (see the Hobbit).
> run out pretty quickly, and I think they're out of Mordor Pizza's
Maybe the Orcs were sending mirthril ore home (Mordor) and getting rations
and fresh Orcs back.
> delivery area. Are there any suitable targets for raiding in the area?
Didn't the Elves guards in Lothloria (sp?) mention that the orcs were making
a nuisciance out of themselves, but they only retailiated if the Orcs
crossed the river, something about not wanting to empty the mountain of
Orcs?
>
> Or has there been a colony of Orcs in the Moria basement ever since
> Durin's time, living on fish and foolish adventurers?
>
> - Damien
Don't know.
REgards
Frank Scrooby
Gene Ward Smith
Michael S. Schiffer wrote:
> And the Dwarves have much the same problem-- were they sustaining a
> large city (designed to weather sieges) by getting produce from
> Lorien? Given their tendency to occasionally be at odds with their
> neighbors, the Dwarves probably have to have some native food-
> production capability, which suggests either prolific cave-fish,
> some sort of magical underground agriculture, or the ability to
> farm snowcapped Caradhras. But while there are hints here and
> there, I don't think Tolkien put as much thought into logistics as
> he did linguistics.
Dwarves have the equivalent of tin cans which last forever, and have
been tucking it away for a rainy day since the First Age. The orcs of
Moria live on the stuff, and are dependent on the Balrog since only he
has the secret of opening them.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:suadnYdXGNxmCDbe...@is.co.za:
> Greetings all
>
> "Damien Neil" <neild-...@misago.org> wrote in message
> news:neild-usenet4->>
>>> Learned that it was quite awake already, or woke the damn
>>> thing themselves?
>>
>> Again, little evidence either way--but my reading has always
>> been that Durin's people woke the Balrog, and it's been hanging
>> out in the depths of Moria ever since.
>
> It has been a long time since I've done a proper read of LoTR
> but doesn't Saruman talk about the Dwarves (i.e. original
> occupants not Balin's co) having delved too deep in their quest
> for mithril? Or is that the movie version.
In the book, it was (IIRC) Gandalf who recounted that-- the Balrog
was definitely Durin's Bane, and originally awoke and drove the
Dwarves out of Moria. What's not clear is whether it then went to
sleep again till a) Balin or b) the Fellowship came through, but it
doesn't strike me as likely. (Dain, at least, though it was still
likely awake, since he counselled Thrain not to try to recolonize
Moria after the defeat of Azog.)
>...
> I dimmly remember a piece of Tolkein unfinished stuff that
> describes Balin and Co. arriving at the front door of Moria to
> find Orc guards. Exchange of arrows, slaying of favored sons on
> both sides, the Dwarfs gain entry and then realize HOW MANY ORCS
> they have to kill.
More or less. though Balin & co. had a five year run after driving
out the first batch of Orcs before the Orcs successfully
counterattacked. It looks like the Balrog was awake by them, if
not before, since "drums in the deep" seems to be associated with
it.
> Balrogs are supposed to corrupted of what ever fills the 'low to
> middle ranked Angel' in Tolkein's mythology. Sauron himself is
> also one of these corruptions, just the baddest bad-ass of them
> all, and being Morgoth's favorite (or is that just the last
> corrupted being standing of Morgoth's favorites?). Based on
> Sauron's constitution a Balrog should be practically immortal,
> requires no food, and is as mean as a busload of disgruntled
> mother-in-laws (not that my mother-in-law is anywhere nearly as
> bad as what society and the popular media would have you expect)
> who all work for the postal service.
This is all pretty much correct. Sauron's tougher than a Balrog
(and less specialized-- Balrogs seem to be straight fire-spirits),
but they're the same sort of being, and don't need sustenance. The
Balrog seems to limit its interests to Moria, whether because it's
afraid the Valar will give it the smackdown if it pops its head
outside, it doesn't want to deal with the Sun, it doesn't want to
get directly recruited by Sauron, or it's still working on what
color to singe the walls.
>...
> I got the impression that the Balrog was just the resident
> demonic roaming supernatural disaster and that the Orcs were
> there for the same thing that the Dwarfs had come for: mirthril.
> Orc mentality is that you keep out of the way of the Balrog and
> you survive. If you screw up on this important rule, throw the
> weakest member back and run like hell.
The appendices have an entry: "c. 2480 ... Sauron begins to people
Moria with his creatures." So that's where the Orcs came from,
though the nature of their relationship with the Balrog is unclear.
(I'd guess "don't kill so many that it ticks Sauron off, otherwise
whatever comes to the mind of an ancient fire-demon with nothing
much to do.") Sauron claimed to Dain that he could give Moria back
to the Dwarves, which suggests that the Balrog was potentially
under his control. Of course, he may have been lying, or he may
have figured that with the One he could either dominate the Balrog
or populate Moria with Dwarf slaves as suited him then.
Mike Schilling
"Frank Scrooby" <X...@xer.com> wrote in message
news:suadnYdXGNxmCDbe...@is.co.za...
> Greetings all
>
> "Damien Neil" <neild-...@misago.org> wrote in message
> news:neild-usenet4->>
>>> Learned that it was quite awake already, or woke the damn thing
>>> themselves?
>>
>> Again, little evidence either way--but my reading has always been that
>> Durin's people woke the Balrog, and it's been hanging out in the depths
>> of Moria ever since.
>
> It has been a long time since I've done a proper read of LoTR but doesn't
> Saruman talk about the Dwarves (i.e. original occupants not Balin's co)
> having delved too deep in their quest for mithril? Or is that the movie
> version.
IIRC, it's Appendix A that speculates that the Balrog was awakened either by
the dwarves' deep minining or the resurgence of Sauron.
Damien Neil
Sean O'Hara <sean...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the Year of the Cock, the Great and Powerful Damien Neil declared:
> >
> > The Orc attack came while the Fellowship was investigating Balin's tomb.
> > The journal they found there clearly indicated that the last survivors
> > of Balin's expedition made their final stand there.
>
> Twenty-five years before the Fellowship entered Moria. It's absurd
> to assume the orcs left lookouts around Balin's tomb just in case
> one of the decaying corpses got up after a quarter century.
But not so absurd that they'd assume that the next group of Dwarves that
come along looking to see what happened to the last batch will end up in
the same place, sooner or later.
- Damien
Damien Neil
> > Durin's people woke the Balrog, and it's been hanging out in the depths
> > of Moria ever since.
>
> It has been a long time since I've done a proper read of LoTR but doesn't
> Saruman talk about the Dwarves (i.e. original occupants not Balin's co)
> having delved too deep in their quest for mithril? Or is that the movie
> version.
Yes, that's definitely in the books somewhere.
The question is whether the Balrog decided to take another nap after
polishing off Durin&co, or if it's been hanging around playing poker
with the trolls in the depths ever since.
I go for the playing-poker theory--I think the Balrog was safely stowed
away underground until Durin's people released it, and that it wasn't
about to return to that state voluntarily.
> > run out pretty quickly, and I think they're out of Mordor Pizza's
>
> Maybe the Orcs were sending mirthril ore home (Mordor) and getting rations
> and fresh Orcs back.
I never thought of that. It hadn't occurred to me that anyone other
than the dwarves could mine mithril--but you're probably right, and the
Orcs have been digging the stuff out and sending it home to Sauron for
centuries. (I assume Sauron has some means of corrupting mithril into
nasty, black stuff that makes you sick if you wear it for too long. The
silvery kind isn't his style.)
- Damien
Anthony Nance
Oh nice - I now have visions of Emily Litella in Lord of the Wings.
<shrug> It's not so bad, actually.
Tony
Sea Wasp
Don't tell me you'd rather watch the Matrix. I bought The One on
DVD immediately after seeing it.
westprog
Thinking about it - you may be right. I'll go and reread. I won't comment
again till I've finished all three volumes.
J/
westprog
My bet is mushrooms. Not much else grows underground. A whole subplot about
the hobbits not wanting to leave Moria was just wasted.
J/
Eric Tolle
> The characters can be divided four ways - the ones who resisted - Aragorn,
> Gandalf, Faramir etc - the ones who succumbed - Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - the
> one who has no interest - Bombadil - and the one who carried it and gave it
> back - Sam.
ISTR reading something saying that except for Pee Wee Herman- err, Tom
Bombadill, the One Ring's corruption ability was tied into the power of
the bearer. That is, the more powerful the wearer, the more it could
offer. Sam, by example, well it couldn't think on that small a scale.
I don't know if this is something Tolkien worte, or if this is just an
analysis csomeone came up with- but it seems to fit.
lclough
> And what were the Orcs eating during the interval between Balin's death
> and the Fellowship's arrival, assuming they weren't all popped back into
> suspended animation for the duration? I'd expect the Dwarf steaks to
> run out pretty quickly, and I think they're out of Mordor Pizza's
> delivery area. Are there any suitable targets for raiding in the area?
>
Horsemeat. Remember that Eomer complains about how the orcs
steal horses. The black ones go to Sauron for breeding, but the
others get made into horsemeat jerky.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Recent short fiction:
FUTURE WASHINGTON (WSFA Press, October '05)
http://www.futurewashington.com
FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04)
http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Horsemeat. Remember that Eomer complains about how the orcs
> steal horses. The black ones go to Sauron for breeding, but the
> others get made into horsemeat jerky.
GW: "All right, all right, hold your horses..."
Lt: "We ate the horses yesterday, sir."
GW: "Oh, right."
BS: "Did you *really* eat the horses yesterday?"
GW: "I didn't, they did. Enlisted men."
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: gae...@aol.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/kgbooklog/
"I don't mind hidden depths but I insist that there be a surface."
-- James Nicoll
William George Ferguson
Chary) wrote:
>In article <1135289247....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>Gene Ward Smith <gws...@svpal.org> wrote:
>>
>>Michael Alan Chary wrote:
>>
>>> Faramir resisted it. Infact, I always thought that was what he and Tom
>>> Bombadil were doing in the books. Showing that it was not hopeless and
>>> that the ring could be defeated.
>>
>>Faramir was not exposed to it nearly so long as his brother, and was
>>less proud and ambitious. However, his desire to be approved by his
>>father, among other things, might have done him in in the end.
>
>I'm not saying Faramir was the iron willed brother and
>uncorruptible. I'm saying he was exposed to the ring and let it go.
>
>I have to wonder how Treebeard would have fared with the ring. Maybe it
>would have promised him entwives or something.
Eventually. In my perception, the Ring could likely subvert anyone not at
a higher level than Sauron eventually (it likely wouldn't be able to
subvert Manwe or Varda or like that). However, since it was made by
Sauron, it has Sauron's values. It will always start by working on the
areas that Sauron would perceive as desirable.
Thus, it would offer Faramir and Sam the opportunity to rule the world,
which both could easily resist since it wasn't something appealing to
them. However, if either of them actually held it for a time, it could
find other avenues, with Faramir his desire for his father's respect and
love, and his loyalty to Gondor, even his desire to be 'noble', and with
Sam, his loyalty to Frodo, and his deep-seated anger at injustice (there
is a lot of anger in Sam that the Ring could work on, given time to find
the right buttons).
So, yes, it's not a matter of being 'incorruptible', it's a matter of not
having the obvious (from the Ring's viewpoint) buttons to push.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
Pete Granzeau
wrote:
>>What's all this I hear about the power of the One Wing? Birds have two
>>wings, and so do dragons. If they one of them was that powerful, they'd
>>just fly around in circles. That doesn't very impressive to me.
>>
>Oh nice - I now have visions of Emily Litella in Lord of the Wings.
Somehow, Emily would end up this way:
Someone else: "Emily, that's _ring_. With an R. Lord of the Rings."
Emily: "Oh. Never mind!"
The one would would do the review of Lord of the Wings would have been
Baba Wawa.
Wilson Heydt
IIRC, Sam's temptation was to turn the world into endless gardens.
--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA
My dime, my opinions.
William George Ferguson
>> Pippin woke the damn Balrog, and its attendant Orcs[1], which had settled
>> down for a nice long snooze after a full meal of Dwarf. And it didn't
>> take the movie to convey that message. Fool of a Took.
Damien Neil <neild-...@misago.org> wrote:
>The movie conveyed the message well, but it's a message that simply
>isn't present in the book.
Then why did so many of us get this message that isn't present, 40 and
more years ago when we first read the books?
I've always assumed, since first reading, that there was a causal
relationship between Pippin throwing the rock and the later arrival of the
Balrog. It was basically a 'gun on the mantle' moment, why have the scene
with Pippin otherwise?
A more interesting question is why the Balrog restricted its activities to
the mountain. Gandalf's description of the fall of Khazad-dum was pretty
explicit that the Balrog had been there before the dwarves, that it was
sleeping, and that it took a whole lot to awake it (just building the
largest dwarf-city in the world on top of it wasn't enough). It's also
pretty clear that the Balrog had fled there when it was obvious that the
army of the Valar (which didn't actually contain any of the Valar) was
going to throw down Morgoth in the War of Wrath at the end of the 1st Age.
A problem there is that population of Moria appears to date from before
the end of the 1st Age. Tolkien's 'tale of years' says that Dwarves from
the cities in the Ered Luin (presumaly becoming less habitable with the
destruction of Beleriand) moved to Moria around 40 years after the War of
Wrath, 'swelling its numbers'. That seems to imply that dwarves were
there before the Balrog. (I'd have to look, but I think the Silmarillion
makes clear that Khazad-dum was already established in the 1st Age)
In any case, the Balrog spent about 2000 years under the dwarf city before
announcing its presence by killing Durin Whassisnumber. The implication
is that the dwarves had no real way to fight the Balrog, because they
simply fled Moria in response.
Tolkien says that Sauron started moving his creatures in about 500 years
later. Another 300 years pass before the war between the dwarves and the
orcs leads to the defeat of the orcs in front of the east door of Moria.
Dain Ironfoot saw the eyes of the Balrog looking out the door at this
time, so it was clearly awake and active then.
Balin led his followers to re-found a colony in Moria about 200 years
later. The colony lasted 5 years before being thrown down by Orcs. The
Balrog was there at the end, but couldn't have been active until the end.
When it became active in 1980 SA, it only took it about two years to kill
or route out all the dwarves from Moria, and that was probably a hundred
or more times the number of dwarves that Balin had. There's no way that
Balin's group could have lasted five years if the Balrog had been awake
all that time.
And next we have the Fellowship.
Now, why does the Balrog lay so low, long after the threat of the Army of
the Valar has departed, generally sleeping away the centuries waiting for
the last battle (when its master will return), only rousing periodically
when incursions of Free People force their attention on it, and even then
restricting itself to action under the mountains.
One thing that occurred to me is that, for all the 2nd and 3rd Ages, right
outside the mountain on the east, there was a major elf-lord, one of the
leaders of the Revolt of the Nolder, whose uncle had taken 50 Balrogs to
bring down, whose other uncle had crippled Morgoth, whose father is the
current High King of the Nolder in Valinor, and who now has this really
nifty ring (and it has special power over water, just to add to the fun
for a fire spirit).
Sean O'Hara
> In article <410t1qF...@individual.net>, Sean O'Hara
> <sean...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The Orc attack came while the Fellowship was investigating
>>> Balin's tomb. The journal they found there clearly indicated
>>> that the last survivors of Balin's expedition made their
>>> final stand there.
>>
>> Twenty-five years before the Fellowship entered Moria. It's
>> absurd to assume the orcs left lookouts around Balin's tomb
>> just in case one of the decaying corpses got up after a quarter
>> century.
>
> But not so absurd that they'd assume that the next group of
> Dwarves that come along looking to see what happened to the last
> batch will end up in the same place, sooner or later.
>
What next batch? In a thousand years, the Dwarves had only made one
previous military expedition to Moria, and that was a direct
response to Azog murdering Thror. There's no reason for the orcs to
expect a follow-up to Balin's little company.
But even if they did, it doesn't make sense to set a watch *inside*
Khazad-dum. So far as we know, there are only two ways into the
mountain, one of which is blocked by a password protected door and
guarded by Cthulhu, Jr. If the orcs had any lookouts posted, they'd
be at Azanulzibar, not the Chamber of Marzabul.
--
Sean O'Hara | http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com
Professor Farnsworth: Most videotapes from that era were damaged in
2443 during the second coming of Jesus.
-Futurama
Brion K. Lienhart
<announcer guy voice>
"You watched it, you can't unwatch it!"
</announcer guy voice>
Bryan Derksen
<neild-...@misago.org> wrote:
>> Pippin woke the damn Balrog, and its attendant Orcs[1], which had settled
>> down for a nice long snooze after a full meal of Dwarf. And it didn't
>> take the movie to convey that message. Fool of a Took.
>
>The movie conveyed the message well, but it's a message that simply
>isn't present in the book.
I've only seen the movie, not read the book, and I didn't really get
that impression either. Pippin was examining a dwarf skeleton, reached
out to touch it, and accidentally bumped the skull just enough for it
to tip off and fall down the well. It was just a dumb accident, it
could have happened even to someone who was being careful.
Considering how Gimli had moments earlier been bellowing at the top of
his lungs, Gandalf was perhaps being a bit unfair to Pippin. Though
the frustration was understandable. :)
Mike Schilling
"Bryan Derksen" <bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote in message
news:koipq117l7a524kk1...@4ax.com...
From the Encyclopedia of Middle-Earth:
Balrogs are Morgoth's most feared servants. While their two main
characteristics are fear, surprise, and a fanatical hatred of Elves, their
ancestry as fire spirits is still telling. For instance, they consider
Dwarves, also created by Aule, to be close relatives, and find even the
loudest Dwarvish battlecries to be soothing lullabies, while the slightest
plink of a drop of water induces a murderous rage.