Re: Where to go first after discovering FTL
David Johnston
>Hi,
>after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
>I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
tphile
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:56:37 +0200, Tobias Weber <t...@gmx.net> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> >I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
> Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
First I would want to see an alien planet with intelligent life
and society to finally answer those questions
personally I would like to see a full scale Ringworld, Vulcan,
Krypton if its still there and then hang out at that automated
pleasure planet
in Star Trek TOS
tphile
tphile
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
> Tobias Weber
I suppose the most obvious archetype example of that would be
Doc Smiths Skylark series.
I would also recommend Stephen Tall's The Stardust Voyages and
The Ramsgate Paradox.
but I think it wouldn't be so much where you go. The bigger question
is
who would you go with? Exploring is more fun when you can share the
experience.
tphile
Brenda Clough
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
I sent my lot to Tau Ceti. Of course it was because the aliens had sent
them the concept for the FTL in the first place -- a cunning ploy, I
expect. (It was in REVISE THE WORLD, which is up at Book View Cafe.)
Brenda
Lynn McGuire
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
Robert Heinlein and Spider Robinson sent them to XXXXXXXXXXX in "Variable Star":
http://www.amazon.com/Variable-Star-Tor-Science-Fiction/dp/0765351684/
Lynn
Quadibloc
> On Aug 29, 2:15 pm, David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
> > Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
>
> and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
I have to admit the premise behind Lost in Space, the TV show, was
monumentally silly. You invent an FTL drive, but since you're not sure
that it works, you launch your ship to Alpha Centauri with
conventional propulsion, and put the people being sent there in
suspended animation.
But, hey, you've got the FTL drive, so you put it on the ship too, so
that they can use it in case of emergencies. (Not being worth the risk
unless there's an emergency...)
I mean, is the first prototype of an FTL drive going to be so cheap it
can be used as a spare?
> First I would want to see an alien planet with intelligent life
> and society to finally answer those questions
Well, yes, but to find one, you have to go *looking* for it.
So it makes sense for the first FTL craft, if it can get to Alpha
Centauri in two weeks, say, to be stocked for... oh, if not a *five-
year mission*, say a five _month_ mission to visit a bunch of the
nearest stars.
John Savard
Quadibloc
> The bigger question
> is
> who would you go with? Exploring is more fun when you can share the
> experience.
It depends just how *much* faster than light the trip is. If it's only
a few weeks or months, the crew would be a small group of scientists
and pilots, to take basic observations at each system, and detect
signs of intelligent life. Then they come home, and share their
discoveries with us.
It's only on the really long voyages that companionship becomes a
major concern. As well as a diverse gene pool.
John Savard
Robert Bannister
> On Aug 29, 2:15 pm, David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:56:37 +0200, Tobias Weber <t...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
>>> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>> Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
>
> and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
>
> First I would want to see an alien planet with intelligent life
> and society to finally answer those questions
Surely any planet with intelligent life would avoid us like the plague.
--
Rob Bannister
Brenda Clough
Well as long as we don't send any congressmen it should be all right.
Brenda
William December Starr
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> said:
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>
>> Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
>
> and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
It worked okay for Zefram Cochrane.
(Per the pre-"First Contact" original Trek novel FEDERATION by
Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens anyway. Pretty good book.)
-- wds
William December Starr
-- wds
tphile
> In article <eff9d769-a87e-404e-ba35-f4ffd39af...@q2g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>,
and Cochrane ended up Lost In Space as well with The Companion
kidnapped and held prisoner by an obsessed female energy field.
I wonder how Criminal Minds would profile that relationship ;-)
So Alpha Centauri is still bad news.
tphile
William December Starr
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> said:
>>>> Um...usually they go to Alpha Centauri.
>>
>>> and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
>>
>> It worked okay for Zefram Cochrane.
>>
>> (Per the pre-"First Contact" original Trek novel FEDERATION by
>> Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens anyway. Pretty good book.)
>
> and Cochrane ended up Lost In Space as well with The Companion
> kidnapped and held prisoner by an obsessed female energy field.
> I wonder how Criminal Minds would profile that relationship ;-)
> So Alpha Centauri is still bad news.
Well yeah, but the _first_ flight, Sol-to-Alpha-C, worked out okay.
(As did the return leg of the trip.)
-- wds
Jonathan Schattke
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
other end of the gate was?
I'd say the closest stars with planets in the habitable zone. But I'm
not going to churn through
<http://www.planetary.org/exoplanets/list.php> to figure it out.
Butch Malahide
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
For an unusual choice, there's the story (not a novel, sorry) where
the very first spaceflight (in what they may have *thought* was an FTL
ship) was a jaunt to Rigel, 800 light-years away.
David Johnston
There's only one star that has a rocky planet in the habitable zone
that has been detected so far, and I wouldn't recommend paying it a
visit, since it probably has a hundred times our atmospheric pressure.
It's much more massive than Earth.
Howard Brazee
Starr) wrote:
>You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>
>-- wds
I'm not so sure about that. If you can use it yourself, use it and
get a head start making money and force everybody else to follow.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
William December Starr
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> said:
On 29 Aug 2010 20:49:08 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
Starr) wrote:
>> You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>
> I'm not so sure about that. If you can use it yourself, use it
> and get a head start making money and force everybody else to
> follow.
I'm not much of an entrepreneur, especially in what's likely to be a
very wild-west business/social environment. I figure that --
assuming a strong and acceptably fair-playing state -- the patent on
an FTL drive would be a cash cow the size of Saturn, and I could be
happy with that.
-- wds
Dimensional Traveler
and ready to go before you file the patent. Send the paperwork to the
Patent Office with copies to your lawyer, pay him a percentage to
negotiate the licenses and hit the start button! :-D
--
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a
stick."
William December Starr
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> said:
> William December Starr wrote:
>
>> I'm not much of an entrepreneur, especially in what's likely to
>> be a very wild-west business/social environment. I figure that
>> -- assuming a strong and acceptably fair-playing state -- the
>> patent on an FTL drive would be a cash cow the size of Saturn,
>> and I could be happy with that.
>
> There's nothing saying you don't have the ship with the FTL drive
> built and ready to go before you file the patent. Send the
> paperwork to the Patent Office with copies to your lawyer, pay him
> a percentage to negotiate the licenses and hit the start button!
> :-D
Oh no. Delivery to and proper registration at the Patent Office, at
least, is one process I'd _really_ want to babysit myself. Rule of
Wingwalking: Don't let loose of what ya got a grip on until you're
sure ya got a grip on somethin' else.
-- wds
tphile
> In article <4c7b18ee$0$1668$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
all that is doing it the hard way. You may have the drive but you
still gotta
invent all the support and repair facilities, defense weapon systems,
navigation,
shields and stuff to make any voyage reasonably survivable. That will
take years or
even centuries.
Cars wouldn't last long without garages and gas stations.
The alternative of hijacking or hitchhiking an advanced alien
spacefaring starship is much
simpler and more likely. Why take risks when someone else can.
and how about John Campbells The Mightiest Machine? Its been decades
since I read it
tphile
seanc
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
> Tobias Weber
Alastair Reynolds touches on this in one of his books. Minimal
spoilage so I won't mention which.
Sean
David DeLaney
>after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
EVERYWHERE
...or do you mean "where FIRST?". ...Oh, I see from the Subject: header that
you do. Sorry.
>I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
_The Skylark of Space_, surely?
Dave "and Campbell's _Islands of Space_; I hadn't recalled originally that they
never actually got out of the Solar System in _The Black Star Passes_" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>all that is doing it the hard way. You may have the drive but you
>still gotta
>invent all the support and repair facilities, defense weapon systems,
>navigation,
>shields and stuff to make any voyage reasonably survivable. That will
>take years or even centuries.
Or, if you're Arcot & Morey, about two months.
Dave "things were faster back then; science was easier, materials were more
mineable, and Labor was quieter" DeLaney
David Cowie
> Alastair Reynolds touches on this in one of his books. Minimal spoilage
> so I won't mention which.
I don't remember anyone *travelling* faster than light in any of
Reynolds's novels. Could you refresh my memory?
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 59537:01
Norm D. Plumber
>You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
Could be a bad idea. Microsoft or google might decide they want it
and sue you until all your lawyers drop dead from old age.
--
"You mean, they actually have to *make* things?" --Lady Serpentine (shuddering)
Norm D. Plumber
>after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
>I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
That might not really be the question. For example when the Blink
drive was invented they still didn't know where to go. They had to
use NAFAL ships to go out a ways and drop a beacon. Then having
dropped a beacon, they could go there instantly without ending up as
part of a meteor or whatever else was already occupying their
destination.
_Gold_Star_, Zach Hughes
Michael Grosberg
> I have to admit the premise behind Lost in Space, the TV show, was
> monumentally silly. You invent an FTL drive, but since you're not sure
> that it works, you launch your ship to Alpha Centauri with
> conventional propulsion, and put the people being sent there in
> suspended animation.
Was that the premise? My recollection of LiS is rather hazy, but I
don't remember FTL mentioned in the TV series. Or the fact that the
light speed barrier even exists. In fact, I don't remember *any*
science content whatsoever.
I do remember something similar in the movie, though. In the movie
they were sent STL to Alpha Century to construct a hypergate there.
When they were sabotaged on route they had to use the hyper-thingy to
avoid crashing into the sun, but without a destination gate, it sent
them to some remote random point in space.
Jonathan Schattke
Gas giants have moons; a sizable moon in the habitable zone would be
interesting.
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>all that is doing it the hard way. You may have the drive but you
>still gotta
>invent all the support and repair facilities, defense weapon systems,
>navigation,
>shields and stuff to make any voyage reasonably survivable. That will
>take years or
>even centuries.
>Cars wouldn't last long without garages and gas stations.
>The alternative of hijacking or hitchhiking an advanced alien
>spacefaring starship is much
>simpler and more likely. Why take risks when someone else can.
>
>and how about John Campbells The Mightiest Machine? Its been decades
>since I read it
How about Varley's _Red Thunder_?
Jerry Brown
>On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:28:16 -0700, seanc wrote:
>
>> Alastair Reynolds touches on this in one of his books. Minimal spoilage
>> so I won't mention which.
>
>I don't remember anyone *travelling* faster than light in any of
>Reynolds's novels. Could you refresh my memory?
Only Century Rain comes to mind, but the FTL wormhole network in that
is just used a means to get to the plot, so I can't see how there
would be any spoilage that seanc mentions.
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
seanc
Va _Ubhfr bs Fhaf_ na SGY jbezubyr vf hfrq ol Chefynar naq Urfcrehf va
bar fuvc, naq Pnzcvba va nabgure, gb ernpu Naqebzrqn. Xabjvat gung
nurnq bs gvzr vfa'g n uhtr fcbvyre, rkprcg gung vg fyvtugyl qnzcraf
fbzr bs gur zlfgrevrf ynvq bhg rneyvre va gur obbx.
Sean
seanc
> In article
> <74bf689b-0227-4c0b-a0c4-fe65ab5ce...@q16g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> seanc <discj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Alastair Reynolds touches on this in one of his books. Minimal
> > spoilage so I won't mention which.
>
>
> --
> Tobias Weber
_Revelation Space_ is his first book set in the universe in which most
(all?) of his subsequent novels take place. This is where I started
and it seems like as good a place as any. It's not the best of the
lot, but it's still good and worth reading. Also, it leads to
_Redemption Ark_ and _Absolution Gap_, which I also enjoyed. I've
seen people recommend _Chasm City_ as a good jumping off point, as
well. It's an easier read than _RS_ and a good introduction to his
fiction.
Sean
tphile
>
> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> > I would also recommend Stephen Tall's The Stardust Voyages and
> > The Ramsgate Paradox.
>
> I didn't find much on that. Collections of short stories?
>
> --
> Tobias Weber
Stardust Voyages is a series of short stories one of which is a hugo
nominee, Ramsgate Paradox is a sequel novel. I read in the 70's.
The series star three spaceship crew members on a exploratory Lewis
and Clark Corps of Discovery type mission to different planets. Two
men and a woman, On a planet they rove around in a WWII Jeep with
some future tech modifications. Another member of the crew is an old
lady artist who is also psychic. and the ships captain holds formal
dinner parties for the crew.
I found the stories a enjoyable good read and worth having. You will
probably have to search used book stores or Amazon to find them but
worth the price
tphile
Quadibloc
wrote:
> Was that the premise? My recollection of LiS is rather hazy, but I
> don't remember FTL mentioned in the TV series. Or the fact that the
> light speed barrier even exists. In fact, I don't remember *any*
> science content whatsoever.
As I recall, the FTL drive in the Jupiter 2 was turned on when Dr.
Smith bumped into it. But you are quite right that there was little or
no reference to the dichotomy in later episodes.
John Savard
Joseph Nebus
>http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20553
I'm grooving on that helio-beryllium hull.
It still seems like there was some weird mental block on writers
back before the Famous Space Program of the 60s, in making the Very First
flight of whatever it was go off to the Moon, or Mars, or what the heck,
why not Rigel, regardless of what the slightest common sense would
suggest?
Granted the history of actual exploration of the world suggests
a pattern of ambition running ahead of sense (*horses*, Captain Scott?
Are you sure about that choice?), but, well, I'd try making my first
FTL jaunt someplace I know I could get back from by conventional means.
Heck, if it works on the ground I might just set up a demo for Maersk
and not worry about starships.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen Thomson
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
Our own solar system is big enough, especially if you include the
Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud, that FTL would be decidedly handy for
exploring it. That way you could do something useful while gaining
experience with the magic machine before setting out for the stars.
Derek Lyons
>On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:31:30 -0500, Jonathan Schattke
><wiz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I'd say the closest stars with planets in the habitable zone. But I'm
>>not going to churn through
>> <http://www.planetary.org/exoplanets/list.php> to figure it out.
>
>There's only one star that has a rocky planet in the habitable zone
>that has been detected so far, and I wouldn't recommend paying it a
>visit, since it probably has a hundred times our atmospheric pressure.
>It's much more massive than Earth.
I'd pay it a visit, or at least pay a visit to the closest dozen of so
exoplanents - to compare what's currently believed about them to
what's actually there. Once the database has thus been calibrated,
you have the data you need to pick your destinations more selectively.
Given history in the solar system so far, odds are however that what
we find will bear little relationship to what's actually there.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
James Nicoll
I just read LEGION OF SPACE, where the geodyne space drives are explicitly
FTL and mainly used for zooming around the Solar System. The nearer stars
could be visited but presumably there's nothing interesting at Alpha
Centauri and an excess of interesting things at Barnards (We only hear
about the mission that went to Barnard's Star).
The FTL speed seems to be more than six times the speed of light but not
more than an order of magnitude faster than that.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
David DeLaney
> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>> _Gold_Star_, Zach Hughes
>
>Didn't find much about this one. Standalone?
>
>Why are all the recommendations so old and hard to get...
The "old" part is because they're memorable to the people recommending them,
for one reason or another, and a lot of us have been reading SF and fantasy
for QUITE some time now. "Hard to get" is because we're not at the Singularity
yet and gutenberg.org hasn't merged with Google and Amazon.
One interesting inversion on FTL-travel-gets-discovered that just came to
me is James Blish's _Beep_ (expanded to book size as _The Quincunx of Time_).
It's about a guy investigating a small outfit that SEEMS to have a completely
accurate method of predicting the future... (Unfortunately, why I'm thinking
it's an inversion gets directly into spoilers for the story.)
Dave
Wayne Throop
: I just read LEGION OF SPACE, where the geodyne space drives are
: explicitly FTL and mainly used for zooming around the Solar System.
: The nearer stars could be visited but presumably there's nothing
: interesting at Alpha Centauri and an excess of interesting things at
: Barnards (We only hear about the mission that went to Barnard's Star).
:
: The FTL speed seems to be more than six times the speed of light but
: not more than an order of magnitude faster than that.
I've wondered now and then whether the hyperspatial gates in
"Cowboy Bebop" were FTL. Seems very likely not, given how long
they seem to stay in transit, but it's unclear just how long that is.
On the other hand there's no particular reason they couldn't have been.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Shawn Wilson
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
Novels not so much, but the Traveller RPG had humanity's first FTL
trip go to Barnard's Star, when they find the edge of a vast
interstellar empire, interestingly and unexpectedly dominated by
*humans*. The RPG proper is mostly set 2500 years later. GURPS
Traveller: Interstellar Wars is set in that period though.
tphile
> In article <2tum76ptkaghrejvm2gsf53gnkdoea6...@4ax.com>,
> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de-pl...@non.com> wrote:
>
> > _Gold_Star_, Zach Hughes
>
> Didn't find much about this one. Standalone?
>
> Why are all the recommendations so old and hard to get...
>
> Tobias Weber
another reason is because you are asking about one of the oldest SF
plots
and that subject has been heavily mined by comics, media and golden
age writers over the decades.
finding something new or very sellable with the topic is pretty hard.
Many of whom are out of print.
Try finding martian stories. Plenty of Tharks, Tripods, chronicles
and Lucky Starrs of long ago but not much
in recent years thanks to NASA
Fantasy and vampires seems to be the current trend.
Good ones may be harder to get but not impossible and the getting is
part of the fun.
tphile
trag
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
I think I would go to a planet with an internet and no spam.
Hee, hee.
trag
> Robert Bannister wrote:
> > tphile wrote:
> >> On Aug 29, 2:15 pm, David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:56:37 +0200, Tobias Weber <t...@gmx.net> wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> >>>> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
> >> and you end up Lost In Space. so skip that.
>
> >> First I would want to see an alien planet with intelligent life
> >> and society to finally answer those questions
>
> > Surely any planet with intelligent life would avoid us like the plague.
>
> Well as long as we don't send any congressmen it should be all right.
We could bring them cats...
Joel Olson
news:9qum7695g329g29uo...@4ax.com...
>
That's why you document your work.
One of the first bills in the first Continental Congress was for patents.
Driven in part by the several engineers & tinkerers & promoters who had
already gotten state patents/licenses/support in various places for their
work toward the steamboat.
Read up on the history of any major technological invention - there is
ALWAYS
a patent fight.
David Cowie
[snippage]
>
> Va _Ubhfr bs Fhaf_ na SGY jbezubyr vf hfrq ol Chefynar naq Urfcrehf va
> bar fuvc, naq Pnzcvba va nabgure, gb ernpu Naqebzrqn. Xabjvat gung
> nurnq bs gvzr vfa'g n uhtr fcbvyre, rkprcg gung vg fyvtugyl qnzcraf fbzr
> bs gur zlfgrevrf ynvq bhg rneyvre va gur obbx.
>
> Sean
Oh yes, that. I had thought that you were referring to gur sgy qevir va
nofbyhgvba tnc gung ab bar qnerf gb hfr, orpnhfr gur havirefr qbrfa'g
yvxr pnhfnyvgl ivbyngvbaf, naq er-jevgrf uvfgbel gb fgbc gurz.
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 59546:07
Jerry Brown
wrote:
Aha, I had forgotten about that. Cheers!
Jaimie Vandenbergh
wrote:
>On Aug 29, 11:44 pm, Tobias Weber <t...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> In article
>> <74bf689b-0227-4c0b-a0c4-fe65ab5ce...@q16g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> seanc <discj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Alastair Reynolds touches on this in one of his books. Minimal
>> > spoilage so I won't mention which.
>>
>> He seems interesting but I have to start somewhere. Mail me?
>>
>> --
>> Tobias Weber
>
>_Revelation Space_ is his first book set in the universe in which most
>(all?) of his subsequent novels take place.
Most. Century Rain is elsewhere, I think.
>This is where I started
>and it seems like as good a place as any. It's not the best of the
>lot, but it's still good and worth reading. Also, it leads to
>_Redemption Ark_ and _Absolution Gap_, which I also enjoyed. I've
>seen people recommend _Chasm City_ as a good jumping off point, as
>well. It's an easier read than _RS_ and a good introduction to his
>fiction.
Yup, I'd say go for either RS if you prefer space opera, or CC if you
prefer planet-bound.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
panic("Foooooooood fight!");
-- /usr/src/linux/drivers/scsi/aha1542.c
tphile
> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de-pl...@non.com> wrote in messagenews:9qum7695g329g29uo...@4ax.com...
>
> > wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
> >>You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>
> > Could be a bad idea. Microsoft or google might decide they want it
> > and sue you until all your lawyers drop dead from old age.
>
> > --
> > "You mean, they actually have to *make* things?" --Lady Serpentine
> > (shuddering)
>
> That's why you document your work.
>
> One of the first bills in the first Continental Congress was for patents.
> Driven in part by the several engineers & tinkerers & promoters who had
> already gotten state patents/licenses/support in various places for their
> work toward the steamboat.
>
> Read up on the history of any major technological invention - there is
> ALWAYS
> a patent fight.
if the FTL engine was not invented but found as an alien artifact/
stargate or flying saucer (whatever) would a
patent even apply or make any difference.
You might be able to operate it but understanding how it works or
being able to duplicate the tech is a whole different matter.
Could even a Doc Savage running a Manhatten Project level operation be
able to duplicate a laptop much less a starship.
I would worry more about someone stealing it or the government
confiscating it. Not to mention the wars it would start.
tphile
tphile
>
> - Show quoted text -
especially if they are from the dog star
tphile
first things first ya gotta go cruisin' in the tradition of lowriders
and George Lucas
Graffiti.
Depending on the size of the craft, the rules are
Cruise thru the hometown at night real slow and making as much noise
and lights as possible.
Do the same thru all the world capitals and major cities.
Challenge all jet jockeys to a race and make them eat your atomic
dust.
Ignore all no fly zones and restrictions
A drive thru diner and drive-in movie next
but most important of all you gotta use it to pick up chicks. Really
hot ones so
a trip to the Playboy Mansion among others is next. If you need a
crew, it might as well
be a fun one.
then be the first to party on the other planets and moons
Howard Brazee
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>I have to admit the premise behind Lost in Space, the TV show, was
>monumentally silly. You invent an FTL drive, but since you're not sure
>that it works, you launch your ship to Alpha Centauri with
>conventional propulsion, and put the people being sent there in
>suspended animation.
>
>But, hey, you've got the FTL drive, so you put it on the ship too, so
>that they can use it in case of emergencies. (Not being worth the risk
>unless there's an emergency...)
>
>I mean, is the first prototype of an FTL drive going to be so cheap it
>can be used as a spare?
I'm curious - was that logic kept in the movie?
Moriarty
Or start with _House of Suns_. It's a standalone and not part of the
Revelation Space universe. It also has the added bonus of being a
crackin good read.
-Moriarty
tphile
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:02:11 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>
Logic is the first casualty and whats Lost in Lost in Space. both tv
series
and movie.
In the movie while it had some nice sfx, it has the saucer shape
Jupiter 2 launching
into space where its outer shell explodes outward in thousands of
pieces and revealing
the oval shaped craft inside.
A stupid idea. Space and orbits are already littered with dangerous
debris and launches
like that would only make things worse.
Otherwise some nice robots and a story that is not as embarassing as
the series.
no talking carrot wars, alien beauty pagents or space hippies and
hillbillies.
Robert Bannister
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
>> You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>
> Could be a bad idea. Microsoft or google might decide they want it
> and sue you until all your lawyers drop dead from old age.
>
And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
That's not science fiction; that's fantasy.
--
Rob Bannister
Derek Lyons
>In article <4c7bce6b....@news.supernews.com>,
> fair...@gmail.com (Derek Lyons) wrote:
>
>> Given history in the solar system so far, odds are however that what
>> we find will bear little relationship to what's actually there.
>
>I'm confused. Do you mean that observations from Earth will be so
>outdated to be useless once we get there by FTL?
No, I'm saying that we're extremely likely to find that the theories
based on Earth based observations will be utter rubbish - as we have
done with the outer planets and their moons.
Jack Bohn
>I've wondered now and then whether the hyperspatial gates in
>"Cowboy Bebop" were FTL. Seems very likely not, given how long
>they seem to stay in transit, but it's unclear just how long that is.
>On the other hand there's no particular reason they couldn't have been.
I'm guessing they spend less time than they would even if they were
torchships.
They do have FTL comms, with real-time cell phone conversations
between planets.
--
-Jack
tphile
> Norm D. Plumber wrote:
dammit
you mean we can't end nuclear weapons proliferation, chem and bio
warfare, spammers
and internet virus writers just by patenting and copywriting?
bummer dude
tphile
seanc
Oh, right. I'd forgotten about that. Interesting that he seems to
have found a way around the causality violation.
Sean
Dimensional Traveler
--
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a
stick."
Norm D. Plumber
That's why I've never bothered to patent anything, it's asking for
trouble and a FWOT.
Norm D. Plumber
I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
Norm D. Plumber
>In article <2tum76ptkaghrejvm...@4ax.com>,
> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>
>> _Gold_Star_, Zach Hughes
>
>Didn't find much about this one. Standalone?
>
>Why are all the recommendations so old and hard to get...
Probably because the book is old and hard to get. It's a very fun
read though.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
Recently read on the subject: P K Dick's "The Variable Man":
<http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/32154>
--
<http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/>
<http://twitter.com/varietysf>
David DeLaney
Catherine Asaro's Skolian Empire series also has this interesting situation;
the Ruby Dynasty's Empire turns out to a) be human-based and b) have been out
there since the days of the old Egyptians. No, the EARLY ones.
Dave "beats Patricia Kennealy-Morrison's Space Celts all hollow" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>first things first ya gotta go cruisin' in the tradition of lowriders
>and George Lucas Graffiti.
>Depending on the size of the craft, the rules are
>Cruise thru the hometown at night real slow and making as much noise
>and lights as possible.
>Do the same thru all the world capitals and major cities.
>Challenge all jet jockeys to a race and make them eat your atomic dust.
>Ignore all no fly zones and restrictions
>A drive thru diner and drive-in movie next
>but most important of all you gotta use it to pick up chicks. Really
>hot ones so a trip to the Playboy Mansion among others is next. If you need a
>crew, it might as well be a fun one.
>then be the first to party on the other planets and moons
You are Zaphod Beeblebrox, and I claim a late-breaking edit to an article.
Dave
Stephen Graham
> Or start with _House of Suns_. It's a standalone and not part of the
> Revelation Space universe. It also has the added bonus of being a
> crackin good read.
I wouldn't discourage people from reading _House of Suns_ but I thought
it to be average+, essentially over-long for the plot. In particular, I
thought that the Palatial sequences could have been better and more
subtly integrated with the overall plot, that aspects of the murder were
unbelievable, and that individuals and races might change just a bit
more over a few million years.
Mike Van Pelt
Michael Grosberg <grosberg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My recollection of LiS is rather hazy, but I don't remember FTL
>mentioned in the TV series. Or the fact that the light speed
>barrier even exists. In fact, I don't remember *any* science
>content whatsoever.
I wish I could remember less of it.
My favorite Lost in Space memory, though, is the Isaac Asimov
article in TV Guide in which he vivisected the LiS episode where
the Jupiter II finally makes it back to Earth, but their vacuum
brakes fail and they shoot out the other side of the Solar System.
Asimov described this as roughly of the same scale as a 5-year-old
girl on her tricycle in Kansas City taking a wrong turn on Main
Street and shooting off into the Pacific Ocean.
--
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in | Mike Van Pelt
the first place. Therefore, if you write the code | mvp at calweb.com
as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not | KE6BVH
smart enough to debug it. --- Brian W. Kernighan
Jack Tingle
> Hi,
> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>
have an FTL drive, but not a really, really, fast FTL drive. The start
with the GJ catalog (AFAICT) and start working through the interesting
stuff. By the time of the series, they're quite a ways away from earth
and have discovered a lot of extinct sapient races and one still
existing one. All but one (extinct one) of them less advanced.
By the end, they're starting to wonder if the game is worth the candle.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Dimensional Traveler
government and/or the military are _never_, in any way shape or form,
involved with, affect or have anything to do with space. Or for that
matter with _anything_ other than as sources of meaningless background
in the form of "headlines".
David DeLaney
>Jack McDevitt's "Priscilla Hutchins" series sort of deals with that. The
>have an FTL drive, but not a really, really, fast FTL drive. The start
>with the GJ catalog (AFAICT) and start working through the interesting
>stuff. By the time of the series, they're quite a ways away from earth
>and have discovered a lot of extinct sapient races and one still
>existing one. All but one (extinct one) of them less advanced.
>
>By the end, they're starting to wonder if the game is worth the candle.
Alas, I started wondering that a lot earlier in the series than they did,
and have lost any motivation to read the four or five more that I bought
and stacked in the M to-read pile before ever starting the series.
Dave "hazards of having to buy things during the one month they're actually
in the bookstore" DeLaney
William December Starr
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> said:
> Logic is the first casualty and whats Lost in Lost in Space. both
> tv series and movie. In the movie while it had some nice sfx, it
> has the saucer shape Jupiter 2 launching into space where its
> outer shell explodes outward in thousands of pieces and revealing
> the oval shaped craft inside. A stupid idea. Space and orbits are
> already littered with dangerous debris and launches like that
> would only make things worse.
But it was the most elegant explanation in the history of
explanations as to why their craft was named the Jupiter *2*.
-- wds
William December Starr
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> said:
> And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
> countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so
> it just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your
> device in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and
> where are you?
Still milking a humonguous cash cow, I'd think.
-- wds
Mark Zenier
>
>>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>>>
>>>> You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>>>
>>> Could be a bad idea. Microsoft or google might decide they want it
>>> and sue you until all your lawyers drop dead from old age.
>>>
>>
>>And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
>>countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
>>just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
>>in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
>
>I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
>if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
Just use reverse threaded screws and a glass keg of nerve gas.
>--
>"You mean, they actually have to *make* things?" --Lady Serpentine (shuddering)
[*]
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Norm D. Plumber
>In article <84kp76tk6e5tj1ohl...@4ax.com>,
>Norm D. Plumber <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>>>> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You mean where to go *second*. First is the Patent Office.
>>>>
>>>> Could be a bad idea. Microsoft or google might decide they want it
>>>> and sue you until all your lawyers drop dead from old age.
>>>>
>>>
>>>And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
>>>countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
>>>just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
>>>in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
>>
>>I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
>>if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
>
>Just use reverse threaded screws and a glass keg of nerve gas.
I didn't mean exploding in the sense of "detonates and kills
reverse-engineer plus any bystanders".
What I had in mind was more of a "Chinese puzzle" construction like a
Carter 4-barrel carburetor from the mid-1960s, where you take the top
off and suddenly instead of a carburetor you have a room full of
flying springs and ball-bearings with little hope of figuring out what
goes where.
James Nicoll
Craze is only just enough FTL to violate relativity, while the "heartbeat"
drive in (ims) JANDRAX can cross the galaxy in a heart beat. The wormholes
in DREAD EMPIRE'S FALL span time and space but only for specific locations.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Norm D. Plumber
>Wouldn't this depend very strong on how fast the F in FTL is? Kube-McDowell's
>Craze is only just enough FTL to violate relativity, while the "heartbeat"
>drive in (ims) JANDRAX can cross the galaxy in a heart beat. The wormholes
>in DREAD EMPIRE'S FALL span time and space but only for specific locations.
I'm of the opinion that the only way to ever actually achieve FTL
travel is through universe modification, which makes it appear that
you have changed locations even though you're where you started
(simply because everything around you is different).
It might be more difficult to patent something Microsoft or Google
wants and actually make the patent stick.
The Blink drive in _Gold_Star_ was sort of a wormhole without worms or
holes, and went through a "not here not there" phase (that you could
manage to get stuck in). The FTL travel in _Five_Twelfths_Of_Heaven_
involved a transformation from the mundane into purgatory which was
"everywhere but nowhere" (but well shy of heaven) and navigation by
the ship's pilot prior to descent back into the mundane.
[Compliments on a nice retopicization from patents back to FTL btw.]
Michael Stemper
>In article <84kp76tk6e5tj1ohl...@4ax.com>, Norm D. Plumber <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>>>And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
>>>countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
>>>just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
>>>in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
>>
>>I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
>>if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
>
>Just use reverse threaded screws and a glass keg of nerve gas.
I see I wasn't the only one reminded of Mr. din Alt.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Norm D. Plumber
>In article <i5lv9...@enews6.newsguy.com>, mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) writes:
>>In article <84kp76tk6e5tj1ohl...@4ax.com>, Norm D. Plumber <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>>>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>
>>>>And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
>>>>countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
>>>>just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
>>>>in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
>>>
>>>I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
>>>if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
>>
>>Just use reverse threaded screws and a glass keg of nerve gas.
>
>I see I wasn't the only one reminded of Mr. din Alt.
I don't recognize the reference, whence "Mr. din Alt"?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jason dinAlt, protagonist from Harry Harrison's Deathworld series;
circumvents a very similar trick protecting some primitive "secret
technology" on a world he's marooned on.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Norm D. Plumber
>Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <i5lv9...@enews6.newsguy.com>, mze...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) writes:
>>>> In article <84kp76tk6e5tj1ohl...@4ax.com>, Norm D. Plumber <nom-de...@non.com> wrote:
>>>>> Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Norm D. Plumber wrote:
>>>>>> And anyway, a patent is only going to cover you in at most a few
>>>>>> countries - "world-wide patents" are not recognised everywhere, so it
>>>>>> just takes a company or country with lots of money to copy your device
>>>>>> in some backwater and sell it at a quarter of the price and where are you?
>>>>> I'm probably still out in the garage trying to perfect the "explodes
>>>>> if opened" packaging for the invention I'm not going to patent.
>>>> Just use reverse threaded screws and a glass keg of nerve gas.
>>> I see I wasn't the only one reminded of Mr. din Alt.
>>
>> I don't recognize the reference, whence "Mr. din Alt"?
>>
>
> Jason dinAlt, protagonist from Harry Harrison's Deathworld series;
>circumvents a very similar trick protecting some primitive "secret
>technology" on a world he's marooned on.
Thanks.
Jack Tingle
stories. It's expensive, but not valuable, and nothing beyond abstract
knowledge is really a worthwhile import, so there's nothing to 'protect'
for the government to get interested in. They leave it up to the Academy.
My suspicion is that real-world space travel will follow this pattern.
There's just nothing physical up there that's valuable enough to make it
worthwhile bringing it back. The only minor exception may be NEA mining
for use in building orbital habitats.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>I never had any problem with it because FTL travel is so useless in his
>stories. It's expensive, but not valuable, and nothing beyond abstract
>knowledge is really a worthwhile import, so there's nothing to 'protect'
>for the government to get interested in. They leave it up to the Academy.
>
>My suspicion is that real-world space travel will follow this pattern.
>There's just nothing physical up there that's valuable enough to make it
>worthwhile bringing it back. The only minor exception may be NEA mining
>for use in building orbital habitats.
Although in the real world, we may wait until it's more affordable.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Derek Lyons
>On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:17:27 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjti...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>My suspicion is that real-world space travel will follow this pattern.
>>There's just nothing physical up there that's valuable enough to make it
>>worthwhile bringing it back. The only minor exception may be NEA mining
>>for use in building orbital habitats.
>
>Although in the real world, we may wait until it's more affordable.
Absent a scenario where $MATERIAL is no longer available dirtside, I
can't see space transport prices ever dropping to the point where it's
affordable to 'mine the sky'. Cheaper than bringing it from Earth,
sure. But not cheap enough to bring it to Earth.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
tphile
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 19:17:27 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjtin...@hotmail.com>
there is still zero g manufacturing which can't be done dirtside
James Nicoll
Jack Tingle <wjti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 8/31/2010 8:35 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 8/31/2010 5:10 PM, Jack Tingle wrote:
>>> On 8/29/2010 2:56 PM, Tobias Weber wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> after the pesky lightspeed limit on travel falls, where to go?
>>>> I'm looking for novels dealing with that.
>>>>
>>> Jack McDevitt's "Priscilla Hutchins" series sort of deals with that. The
>>> have an FTL drive, but not a really, really, fast FTL drive. The start
>>> with the GJ catalog (AFAICT) and start working through the interesting
>>> stuff. By the time of the series, they're quite a ways away from earth
>>> and have discovered a lot of extinct sapient races and one still
>>> existing one. All but one (extinct one) of them less advanced.
>>>
>>> By the end, they're starting to wonder if the game is worth the candle.
>>>
>> That series broke my Willing Suspension of Disbelief because somehow the
>> government and/or the military are _never_, in any way shape or form,
>> involved with, affect or have anything to do with space. Or for that
>> matter with _anything_ other than as sources of meaningless background
>> in the form of "headlines".
>>
>I never had any problem with it because FTL travel is so useless in his
>stories. It's expensive, but not valuable, and nothing beyond abstract
>knowledge is really a worthwhile import, so there's nothing to 'protect'
>for the government to get interested in. They leave it up to the Academy.
It's fairly clear there are more advanced civilizations out there, so
there is the potential that someone will bring back some valuable
information [1] (which could interest governments) and also that they could
draw the Earth to the attention of the more advanced civilizations, which
could be good or bad. Even a handful of alien scientists could be disruptive.
One possibility for physical imports is edible biologicals, specifically
spices and drugs. One Trenco could pay for a lot of abstract research.
Even abstract knowledge about unrelated biochemistries could have commercial
applications.
There's also the chance that looking at a lot of Earthlike planets could
yield information useful for managing the Earth, which humans of that
era suck at.
1: ObSF: that Simak where one of the few things from Earth the aliens
wanted was our pulp fiction.
Butch Malahide
>
> Absent a scenario where $MATERIAL is no longer available dirtside, I
> can't see space transport prices ever dropping to the point where it's
> affordable to 'mine the sky'. Cheaper than bringing it from Earth,
> sure. But not cheap enough to bring it to Earth.
The idea is, you send *one* shipload of self-reproducing robots into
space, with instructions to live off the land, I mean the sky, build
factories, and ship manufactured goods to earth, using only
extraterrestrial resources. In exchange for a finite initial
investment, you get an endless stream of goods from space. OK, there
is an ongoing cost of managing the enterprise, since the robots will
need continual instructions from earth. There would be a long wait
before you start getting any payoff. Eventually, though, the robots
could even build hotels in space and operate a fleet of space liners
for human passengers, using only extraterrestrial materials and fuels.
Nothing in it for the robots, but they're just machines. This assumes,
of course, that outer space *has* all the needed resources. Something
I read in a sci-fi magazine a few decades ago. No, I don't believe it;
but I don't think you can *prove* that mining the sky is not
economically feasible.
Dimensional Traveler
There's also the matter of the various extra-solar colonies/research
stations. I have trouble believing the government isn't going to want
at least a presence on those. Law enforcement perhaps?
Its also the absolute, complete absence of anything governmental off the
surface. Even "flight control" in near-Earth space is not government
run. I can easily see academic ships flying around along with
commercial and governmental ships, but when the _only_ ships flying are
academic? No, sorry, I don't believe it.
Thomas Womack
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>there is still zero g manufacturing which can't be done dirtside
Diamagnetic levitation is inconvenient, and uses an awful lot of
electricity to keep the electromagnets running and to pump and chill
the water to keep the magnets solid, but it's much less inconvenient
and much less expensive than working in space.
Tom
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I'm not at all sure that diamagnetic levitation would be at all the
same thing. You're not in freefall, you're just not sitting on a
surface. Unless I severely misunderstand, the floating whatever would
still be feeling gravity's pull, which is the thing you're trying to
avoid in microgravity manufacturing.
I'm also very unsure you could apply the levitation trick to
everything, anyway. Would it work on (say) liquid supersaturated mineral
solutions which you were trying to grow into large crystals? On melted
metals of all types? On ceramics?
trag
> there is still zero g manufacturing which can't be done dirtside
None that we've invented so far. Each thing that we thought might be
useful to manufacture in microgravity has been found to be doable on
Earth with more clever techniques.
Around '86 the mumble mumble electrophoresis experiment sponsored by
McDonnell Douglas flew on the space shuttle. It was expected to be a
method of creating ultra-pure drugs in space. About a year later
they figured out how to do it just as well on the ground. Perhaps
they learned something from the space experiment which helped with the
ground technique, but even if that's so, then the benefit was in
experimentation in space, not in manufacturing in space.
The huge cost of putting a pound in even low Earth orbit makes space
manufacturing a dubious venture. Now if there was a market already
in space to which you could sell things...
How many tons of equipment, humans, and supplies would we need to
launch to create a self-sufficient society in space? I think that's
the real question.
trag
> In article <i5mmu8$h3...@news.eternal-september.org>,
I remember a story, I think it was a Simak, where the protagonist
found some kind of doorway that led to alien worlds and he made a
quite a good trade by offering the idea of paint.