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Seeking recommendations: Stories of redemption
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John H.
Jun 19, 2012, 2:00:22 PM6/19/12
to
I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
Thanks,
John
of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
Thanks,
John
Robert Carnegie
Jun 19, 2012, 2:38:29 PM6/19/12
to
this territory. And you may be interested in
_The Man Who Used the Universe_. Does it do
what you said? That would be telling.
And of course there's Severus Snape.
lal_truckee
Jun 19, 2012, 3:40:33 PM6/19/12
to
On 6/19/12 11:00 AM, John H. wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters.
Gully Foyle is my name
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters.
And Terra is my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
Greg Goss
Jun 19, 2012, 3:58:53 PM6/19/12
to
trilogy.
--
I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
wouldn't have rusted like this.
Butch Malahide
Jun 19, 2012, 3:59:50 PM6/19/12
to
James Blish.
Short stories:
"Fallen Star" by John Collier
"The Devil Was Sick" by Bruce Elliott
Butch Malahide
Jun 19, 2012, 4:06:57 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 1:00 pm, "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
original magazine, or as an ebook, AFAIK.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 19, 2012, 4:13:44 PM6/19/12
to
In article <0b21216a-b073-4882...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Edmund, in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Wayne Throop
Jun 19, 2012, 4:29:27 PM6/19/12
to
:: I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
:: of the main characters.
Not a novel, but "Avatar: The Last Airbender" is the story of
:: of the main characters.
the protagonist's redemption. Oh, you thought Aang was the protagonist?
Well, sort of. But if you look at it, the whole show is the story
of Zuko's redemption.
And if you want to see a foiled badguy character go completely
apeshit crazy, I mean completely, totally apeshit, chewing the scenery,
thrashing in a heap crazy, see Azula's breakdown when Katara defeats her.
Sort of the opposite of redemption. Impressive, even as a voice-actor.
"You wanna see sin of the wickedest kind? Here it is!
You wanna see virtue left behind? Here it is!"
--- Song of No Name City (from Paint Your Wagon)
David DeLaney
Jun 19, 2012, 6:24:53 PM6/19/12
to
John H. <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender=92s Game series. So, not so much
>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
>Any suggestions? I=92d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
Well, Eddings' _The Redemption of Althalus_ is explicitly set up to be this,
but might be too anvil-droppy for you. You might want to look at things
like the Banewreaker/Godslayer duology by Carey, where most of the people
and gods involved THINK someone is blackest evil but his story gets told
and his rationale examined... Or maybe like rational!Quirrel in the Methods
of Rationality fanfic? Or Long-Emperor Leto in the Dune series?
And of course this is a +favorite+ trope in paranormal romance, Fallen Evil
Supposedly-Nasty Male Lead gets caught on Female Lead's enormous tracts of
land and finds himself turning less nasty, except when they're doing the
nasty of course...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Johnston
Jun 19, 2012, 6:36:47 PM6/19/12
to
On 6/19/2012 1:58 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> "John H." <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>
>> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> trilogy.
>
Bah. Doing one "good" thing and then immediately dying. I is
> "John H." <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>
>> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> trilogy.
>
unimpressed.
Moriarty
Jun 19, 2012, 6:36:57 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 20, 6:13 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <0b21216a-b073-4882-bccb-04b650bfe...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
-Moriarty
> In article <0b21216a-b073-4882-bccb-04b650bfe...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Jun 19, 1:00 pm, "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
> >> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> >> Any suggestions? I d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> John
>
> >_Transient_ by Ward Moore (Unfortunately only available in the
> >original magazine, or as an ebook, AFAIK.)
>
> Edmund, in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe._
Also Eustace in _The Voyage of the Dawn Treader_.
>
> >On Jun 19, 1:00 pm, "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
> >> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> >> Any suggestions? I d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> John
>
> >_Transient_ by Ward Moore (Unfortunately only available in the
> >original magazine, or as an ebook, AFAIK.)
>
> Edmund, in _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe._
-Moriarty
James Silverton
Jun 19, 2012, 6:40:10 PM6/19/12
to
kids were compelled to write into their school books (names as appropriate).
Thomas Souter is my name,
Humble is my station.
Glasgow is my dwelling place,
A pleasant habitation.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
Moriarty
Jun 19, 2012, 6:52:53 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 20, 5:58 am, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
of him donning the black suit for the first time and breathing raspily
and forebodingly.
-Moriarty
> "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
> >I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> >Any suggestions? I d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> trilogy.
MY recollection of Vader at the end of the second Star Wars trilogy is
> >I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> >Any suggestions? I d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> trilogy.
of him donning the black suit for the first time and breathing raspily
and forebodingly.
-Moriarty
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jun 19, 2012, 6:56:45 PM6/19/12
to
but not enough to go watch the rest of the later trilogy after the
execrable first movie.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
If you own a jackhammer, every problem looks like hours of fun
Greg Goss
Jun 19, 2012, 7:18:01 PM6/19/12
to
retconned to have never been intended. (I've seen what claim to be
plot outlines of them, and they suck, but many SF movie plot outlines
suck till you see the movie.)
Which comes first, #1,2,3 or #4,#5,#6?
Our language sucks at time travel, even for movies produced out of
sequence.
David Johnston
Jun 19, 2012, 7:32:28 PM6/19/12
to
comes to changing your height.
tphile2
Jun 19, 2012, 7:27:32 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 6:18 pm, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
#3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
the animated stuff where you will.
#3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
the animated stuff where you will.
Juho Julkunen
Jun 19, 2012, 7:43:18 PM6/19/12
to
In article <0s02u7pdbae1e8tph...@4ax.com>,
jai...@sometimes.sessile.org says...
Well, it was by a mediocre director who hadn't directed anything for a
couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
rusty.
Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
War. (Unfortunately it also has segments tailored for videogames by
someone whose conception of videogames was a decade out of date.)
Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
Back.
--
Juho Julkunen
jai...@sometimes.sessile.org says...
couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
rusty.
Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
War. (Unfortunately it also has segments tailored for videogames by
someone whose conception of videogames was a decade out of date.)
Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
Back.
--
Juho Julkunen
lal_truckee
Jun 19, 2012, 7:57:15 PM6/19/12
to
On 6/19/12 3:40 PM, James Silverton wrote:
> On 6/19/2012 3:40 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
...
> On 6/19/2012 3:40 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>> Gully Foyle is my name
>> And Terra is my nation
>> Deep space is my dwelling place
>> The stars my destination
>>
> A travesty (deserved too!) of the verse some nineteenth century Scottish
> kids were compelled to write into their school books (names as
> appropriate).
Older than that. Wikipedia says of the TT doggerel that the "quatrains
>> And Terra is my nation
>> Deep space is my dwelling place
>> The stars my destination
>>
> A travesty (deserved too!) of the verse some nineteenth century Scottish
> kids were compelled to write into their school books (names as
> appropriate).
are based on a poetic form that was popular in England and the United
States during the 18th-to-mid-20th centuries, in which a person stated
their name, country, city or town, and a religious homily (often,
"Heaven's my destination") within the rhyming four-line structure..."
plus a bunch of other stuff that will lead me astray unless I abandon
the topic immediately, so I shall.
I like the way Bester works the form to specify Gully Foyle's evolution.
lal_truckee
Jun 19, 2012, 8:01:58 PM6/19/12
to
On 6/19/12 4:18 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
> I've seen what claim to be
> plot outlines of them, and they suck, but many SF movie plot outlines
> suck till you see the movie
All too many SF movie plot outlines suck even more after you see the movie.
> I've seen what claim to be
> plot outlines of them, and they suck, but many SF movie plot outlines
> suck till you see the movie
Walter Bushell
Jun 19, 2012, 8:38:15 PM6/19/12
to
In article
<b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
--
This space unintentionally left blank.
<b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
> the animated stuff where you will.
IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
> the animated stuff where you will.
--
This space unintentionally left blank.
Greg Goss
Jun 19, 2012, 9:17:19 PM6/19/12
to
before I ever watched it. Apparently, someone trimmed the worst
twenty minutes off the official version, and perhaps added back in
some of the lost stuff from the DVD.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 19, 2012, 9:26:16 PM6/19/12
to
In article <jrqutu$se8$1...@dont-email.me>,
Hey! Turning back and immediately dying means he doesn't have to
risk temptation again.
risk temptation again.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 19, 2012, 9:27:06 PM6/19/12
to
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 19, 2012, 9:54:53 PM6/19/12
to
you're doing with all those silly other numbers.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Catherine Jefferson
Jun 19, 2012, 9:56:09 PM6/19/12
to
11-year-old brother in Podkayne of Mars, Robert Heinlein. Mark, Miles
Vorkosigan's brother/clone, in Brother in Arms and Mirror Dance, Lois
McMaster Bujold. Brother Edward, Passing through Gethsemane, Babylon 5,
Season 3, J. Michael Straczynski. (This particular Babylon 5 episode is
one of the finest works of Christian performing art I've ever seen, and
Straczynski is an atheist of Russian Jewish extraction. Go figure.)
I'm sure other people can think of other examples. :-)
--
Catherine Jefferson <tw8...@ergosphere.net>
Blog/Personal: http://www.ergosphere.net
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jun 19, 2012, 11:05:47 PM6/19/12
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 01:27:06 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <proto-7381B7....@news.panix.com>,
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article
>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>
>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>
>Sibling!
We're a big family.
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <proto-7381B7....@news.panix.com>,
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article
>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>
>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>
>Sibling!
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament],
'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will
the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jun 19, 2012, 11:16:34 PM6/19/12
to
After that, um..
Thomas Covenant in various of his adventures.
Willie Garvin's origin story.
Gee I thought I could think of a lot more. I'm sure that the
dissolute drunk who pulls it all together for one more shot at
doing the right thing is almost an archetype, but I'm not coming up
with a lot of SF examples. Haymitch in the first _Hunger Games_ book
perhaps. I'm sure Laumer did it somewhere..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Jun 19, 2012, 11:18:29 PM6/19/12
to
In article <a4cml5...@mid.individual.net>,
point IMAX had a hard 2 hour limit, since lifted iirc).
Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>In article
>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>
>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>
>How about "The Phantom Edit"? My videos disk died without a backup
>before I ever watched it. Apparently, someone trimmed the worst
>twenty minutes off the official version, and perhaps added back in
>some of the lost stuff from the DVD.
The IMAX edit of TPM was much better than the regular release. (At that
>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>In article
>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>
>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>
>How about "The Phantom Edit"? My videos disk died without a backup
>before I ever watched it. Apparently, someone trimmed the worst
>twenty minutes off the official version, and perhaps added back in
>some of the lost stuff from the DVD.
point IMAX had a hard 2 hour limit, since lifted iirc).
Shawn Wilson
Jun 19, 2012, 11:44:35 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 3:56 pm, Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org>
wrote:
> And suddenly gaining a foot of height? I always wondered about that,
> but not enough to go watch the rest of the later trilogy after the
> execrable first movie.
His mechanical replacement arms and legs were spec'd differently than
the originals. Now you don't have to see them again. You can thank
me any time.
wrote:
> And suddenly gaining a foot of height? I always wondered about that,
> but not enough to go watch the rest of the later trilogy after the
> execrable first movie.
the originals. Now you don't have to see them again. You can thank
me any time.
Shawn Wilson
Jun 19, 2012, 11:45:17 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 4:27 pm, tphile2 <tphi...@cableone.net> wrote:
> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
> the animated stuff where you will.
Ok, you hold George Lucas down...
> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
> the animated stuff where you will.
Butch Malahide
Jun 19, 2012, 11:39:21 PM6/19/12
to
On Jun 19, 10:16 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:
> Gee I thought I could think of a lot more. I'm sure that the
> dissolute drunk who pulls it all together for one more shot at
> doing the right thing is almost an archetype, but I'm not coming up
> with a lot of SF examples. Haymitch in the first _Hunger Games_ book
> perhaps. I'm sure Laumer did it somewhere..
Billy Danger in Laumer's _Galactic Odyssey_? Lawrence Smith in
Heinlein's _Double Star_?
wrote:
> >> "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
> >>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
>
> >>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> >>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> >>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
> >>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> >>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> >>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Well, in fantasy, _A Christmas Carol_ would be an obvious choice.
>
> After that, um..
>
> Thomas Covenant in various of his adventures.
>
> Willie Garvin's origin story.
Plastic Man!
>
> After that, um..
>
> Thomas Covenant in various of his adventures.
>
> Willie Garvin's origin story.
> Gee I thought I could think of a lot more. I'm sure that the
> dissolute drunk who pulls it all together for one more shot at
> doing the right thing is almost an archetype, but I'm not coming up
> with a lot of SF examples. Haymitch in the first _Hunger Games_ book
> perhaps. I'm sure Laumer did it somewhere..
Heinlein's _Double Star_?
Don Kuenz
Jun 20, 2012, 2:14:07 AM6/20/12
to
John wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters.
The protagonist in "Logan's Run" at first kills runners before
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters.
becoming a runner himself and fighting on behalf of runners.
"Second Foundation" offers up mandatory redemption when a
not-quite-sufficiently-subtle antagonist named "Mule" gets his mind
right after a mentalist does the old Jedi Mind Trick ploy.
"Triplanetary" offers up group redemption, which takes the form of
Earth making peace with Nevians.
--
Don Kuenz
Robert Carnegie
Jun 20, 2012, 7:06:18 AM6/20/12
to
On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:16:34 AM UTC+1, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Gee I thought I could think of a lot more. I'm sure that the
> dissolute drunk who pulls it all together for one more shot at
> doing the right thing is almost an archetype, but I'm not coming up
> with a lot of SF examples. Haymitch in the first _Hunger Games_ book
> perhaps. I'm sure Laumer did it somewhere..
Giles Habibula in "The Legion of Space" has
> Gee I thought I could think of a lot more. I'm sure that the
> dissolute drunk who pulls it all together for one more shot at
> doing the right thing is almost an archetype, but I'm not coming up
> with a lot of SF examples. Haymitch in the first _Hunger Games_ book
> perhaps. I'm sure Laumer did it somewhere..
the drunk angle totally covered. It's a
career choice, and, goodness, his surname
glugs like pouring from a bottle.
For a villain suddenly doing the good thing
and immediately getting killed (avoiding the
social awkwardness that arises otherwise
when a war criminal saves the day), we need
a volunteer to check out TV Tropes.
So if /you'd/ be willing to sober up......
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 20, 2012, 8:11:57 AM6/20/12
to
On 6/20/12 7:06 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
> For a villain suddenly doing the good thing
> and immediately getting killed (avoiding the
> social awkwardness that arises otherwise
> when a war criminal saves the day), we need
> a volunteer to check out TV Tropes.
> So if /you'd/ be willing to sober up......
That's called Redemption Equals Death, at
>
> For a villain suddenly doing the good thing
> and immediately getting killed (avoiding the
> social awkwardness that arises otherwise
> when a war criminal saves the day), we need
> a volunteer to check out TV Tropes.
> So if /you'd/ be willing to sober up......
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath
Checking the "Literature" section, since this is r.a.sf.w, and only
mentioning ones I know...
Severus Snape tops the list, really -- became a Death Eater as a young
man, that cost him the one thing he truly cared about, and spent the
rest of his life making up for that, and died right after telling Harry
the last piece of the puzzle.
Boromir from LotR. While he wasn't a villain per se, he was a huge
dickwad for much of the journey, refused to listen to anyone, and
momentarily went nuts and tried to take the Ring. Then he had an
epiphany, realized that everyone had been RIGHT about him, and died in
his Crowning Moment of Awesome.
Ooo, I'd forgotten about *Ellidyr* from the Prydain Chronicles. Total
arrogant jerk throughout the book, decides to steal the credit for
finding the Cauldron, then, when the bad guys are about to get control
of it again, throws himself into the Cauldron, sacrificing his life to
destroy it.
John H.
Jun 20, 2012, 8:57:19 AM6/20/12
to
Thank you everybody for your suggestions. You have given me a good
list with which to start.
I am not so much looking for evel character that have sudden
transfermation (i.e. the Darth Vader of film). I am looking for
novels where one of the main plot threads slow transformation over
time of an evil/unlikable character into a sympathetic or heroic
character.
Thanks,
John
list with which to start.
I am not so much looking for evel character that have sudden
transfermation (i.e. the Darth Vader of film). I am looking for
novels where one of the main plot threads slow transformation over
time of an evil/unlikable character into a sympathetic or heroic
character.
Thanks,
John
jack...@bright.net
Jun 20, 2012, 9:30:43 AM6/20/12
to
Juho Julkunen wrote:
>In article <0s02u7pdbae1e8tph...@4ax.com>,
>jai...@sometimes.sessile.org says...
>>
[Star Wars: Episode I
>In article <0s02u7pdbae1e8tph...@4ax.com>,
>jai...@sometimes.sessile.org says...
>>
>
>Well, it was by a mediocre director who hadn't directed anything for a
>couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
>rusty.
>
>Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
>War. (Unfortunately it also has segments tailored for videogames by
>someone whose conception of videogames was a decade out of date.)
>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>Back.
How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>Well, it was by a mediocre director who hadn't directed anything for a
>couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
>rusty.
>
>Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
>War. (Unfortunately it also has segments tailored for videogames by
>someone whose conception of videogames was a decade out of date.)
>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>Back.
though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
Jun 20, 2012, 10:02:24 AM6/20/12
to
character gets their own title, or gets
a spot on a superhero team, and usually
has to be made not-just-a-villain.
On the other hand, sometimes the story is
on the basis that it's fun to read about an
evil person being evil.
In Avengers, Wonder Man had a
Redemption-Equals-Death, but he got better.
Then he had a couple of turns of being an
antagonist, which is what I saw him doing
last: criticising the Avengers by leading
a gang against them. I prefer when these
cases are an honest difference of opinion
and not just mind-control by a villain.
Magneto in the X-Men got more interesting
in the 1970s under Chris Claremont;
this is also in the movies. He's now
/in/ the X-Men in the comics. There's
/lots/ of ex-villains in the Avengers
/and/ the X-Men.
Deadpool was an eccentric and vicious
assassin - and somewhat a parody of
Deadshot - but when he got his own
continuing title comic, he reformed
and tried to give up murdering - which
made it difficult to earn money as
an assassin. But he gets by. I think
he killed someone while under mind control,
at least one time.
Taskmaster was rewritten rather radically
in his limited series; now he's amnesiac,
so he's a villain character but he doesn't
know why - and sometimes he's the good guy.
Also, see particularly the early exploits of
The Thunderbolts - or similar themes in
The Liberty Project.
Robert Carnegie
Jun 20, 2012, 10:16:33 AM6/20/12
to
On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 1:11:57 PM UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Redemption Equals Death, at
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath
>
> Checking the "Literature" section, since this is r.a.sf.w, and only
> mentioning ones I know...
>
> Severus Snape tops the list, really -- became a Death Eater as a young
> man, that cost him the one thing he truly cared about, and spent the
> rest of his life making up for that, and died right after telling Harry
> the last piece of the puzzle.
Of course, most of the time, we didn't
> Redemption Equals Death, at
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath
>
> Checking the "Literature" section, since this is r.a.sf.w, and only
> mentioning ones I know...
>
> Severus Snape tops the list, really -- became a Death Eater as a young
> man, that cost him the one thing he truly cared about, and spent the
> rest of his life making up for that, and died right after telling Harry
> the last piece of the puzzle.
really know that Snape was doing all that -
only that Dumbledore trusted him. And then
that looked like a big mistake...
Also, Snape seems to still believe in the
ethos of Slytherin House, the section of
the school that he leads; in the
Occlumency lessons, he makes the
argument that self-discipline is the
Prime Directive. Making other people do
what you want - politics - appears to
be the Second, although I suppose it only
works on people who aren't sufficiently
good at the Prime one. And we're probably
meant to see this as misguided.
So, the surface impression is that
the Slytherins are around just to be the
bad guys and to get beaten at Quidditch
and at House Points by Harry Potter as
often as possible, and Snape the snarling
villain, but there's all of this going
on as well. Plus James Potter and his
friends turning out to be school bullies -
and determined, too.
If you remember me explaining my theory
that the Hogwarts House Sorting aims to
bring out not the characteristics that
the student, aged 11 or 12, already has,
but their unrealised potential, then
I don't need to do it all yet again, except
to note again that many of the students in
Gryffindor, the house for heroics, mostly
aren't heroic to start with - they grow
into it.
Joel Polowin
Jun 20, 2012, 11:04:24 AM6/20/12
to
On Jun 19, 9:56 pm, Catherine Jefferson <spamt...@spambouncer.org>
fellow when we first see him. The evil is in his past, and the
transformation from evil to "good" likewise.
G'kar is another character who initially is quite unpleasant,
but changes. He even comments on this in his message to Ta'Lon
at the end of the series. "You may believe you are not ready,
but you are as ready as I was when I first came to Babylon 5.
Check the records; I think you'll be amused."
> Brother Edward, Passing through Gethsemane, Babylon 5,
> Season 3, J. Michael Straczynski. (This particular Babylon 5 episode is
> one of the finest works of Christian performing art I've ever seen, and
> Straczynski is an atheist of Russian Jewish extraction. Go figure.)
Brother Edward is an odd case, since he's a very well-meaning
> Season 3, J. Michael Straczynski. (This particular Babylon 5 episode is
> one of the finest works of Christian performing art I've ever seen, and
> Straczynski is an atheist of Russian Jewish extraction. Go figure.)
fellow when we first see him. The evil is in his past, and the
transformation from evil to "good" likewise.
G'kar is another character who initially is quite unpleasant,
but changes. He even comments on this in his message to Ta'Lon
at the end of the series. "You may believe you are not ready,
but you are as ready as I was when I first came to Babylon 5.
Check the records; I think you'll be amused."
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 20, 2012, 11:05:54 AM6/20/12
to
In article <03fddb83-7dac-4c29...@googlegroups.com>,
I did one of those: Saradoc in _The Interior Life._ Switches
from good to bad and back to good again and dies, QUICKLY,
before he can switch back.
from good to bad and back to good again and dies, QUICKLY,
before he can switch back.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 20, 2012, 11:06:42 AM6/20/12
to
In article <jrsemd$eh1$1...@dont-email.me>,
Boromir's is envy.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 6/20/12 7:06 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>>
>> For a villain suddenly doing the good thing
>> and immediately getting killed (avoiding the
>> social awkwardness that arises otherwise
>> when a war criminal saves the day), we need
>> a volunteer to check out TV Tropes.
>> So if /you'd/ be willing to sober up......
>
> That's called Redemption Equals Death, at
>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath
>
> Checking the "Literature" section, since this is r.a.sf.w, and only
>mentioning ones I know...
>
> Severus Snape tops the list, really -- became a Death Eater as a young
>man, that cost him the one thing he truly cared about, and spent the
>rest of his life making up for that, and died right after telling Harry
>the last piece of the puzzle.
>
> Boromir from LotR. While he wasn't a villain per se, he was a huge
>dickwad for much of the journey, refused to listen to anyone, and
>momentarily went nuts and tried to take the Ring. Then he had an
>epiphany, realized that everyone had been RIGHT about him, and died in
>his Crowning Moment of Awesome.
Boromir is a tragic hero: that is, a hero with a tragic flaw, and
>On 6/20/12 7:06 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
>>
>> For a villain suddenly doing the good thing
>> and immediately getting killed (avoiding the
>> social awkwardness that arises otherwise
>> when a war criminal saves the day), we need
>> a volunteer to check out TV Tropes.
>> So if /you'd/ be willing to sober up......
>
> That's called Redemption Equals Death, at
>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath
>
> Checking the "Literature" section, since this is r.a.sf.w, and only
>mentioning ones I know...
>
> Severus Snape tops the list, really -- became a Death Eater as a young
>man, that cost him the one thing he truly cared about, and spent the
>rest of his life making up for that, and died right after telling Harry
>the last piece of the puzzle.
>
> Boromir from LotR. While he wasn't a villain per se, he was a huge
>dickwad for much of the journey, refused to listen to anyone, and
>momentarily went nuts and tried to take the Ring. Then he had an
>epiphany, realized that everyone had been RIGHT about him, and died in
>his Crowning Moment of Awesome.
Boromir's is envy.
Jim G.
Jun 20, 2012, 11:47:06 AM6/20/12
to
Jaimie Vandenbergh sent the following on 6/19/2012 5:56 PM:
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
> <blu...@ivillage.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 20, 5:58 am, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>> "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>> On Jun 20, 5:58 am, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>> "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>>>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>>>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>>>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
>>>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>>
>>>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender s Game series. So, not so much
>>>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>>
>>>> Any suggestions? I d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
>>> trilogy.
>>
>> MY recollection of Vader at the end of the second Star Wars trilogy is
>> of him donning the black suit for the first time and breathing raspily
>> and forebodingly.
>
>>> trilogy.
>>
>> MY recollection of Vader at the end of the second Star Wars trilogy is
>> of him donning the black suit for the first time and breathing raspily
>> and forebodingly.
>
> And suddenly gaining a foot of height? I always wondered about that,
> but not enough to go watch the rest of the later trilogy after the
> execrable first movie.
He received a hardware upgrade after a bit of fire damage.
> but not enough to go watch the rest of the later trilogy after the
> execrable first movie.
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
http://www.goodreads.com/jimgysin/
http://www.librarything.com/home/jimgysin
Jim G.
Jun 20, 2012, 11:48:44 AM6/20/12
to
David Johnston sent the following on 6/19/2012 5:36 PM:
jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet. Plus,
his redemption in VI was absolutely necessary for things to have a happy
ending. So I'm willing to cut him a bit of slack here.
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
If you are reading this, it means that I don't have anything better to
offer here at the moment.
> On 6/19/2012 1:58 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> "John H." <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>>
>>> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>>
>> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
>> trilogy.
>>
>>
>>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>>
>>> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>>
>> The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
>> trilogy.
>>
> Bah. Doing one "good" thing and then immediately dying. I is
> unimpressed.
If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
> unimpressed.
jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet. Plus,
his redemption in VI was absolutely necessary for things to have a happy
ending. So I'm willing to cut him a bit of slack here.
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
offer here at the moment.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jun 20, 2012, 12:34:30 PM6/20/12
to
guy syndrome'?
Cheers - Jaimie
--
I hope I live long enough
to vindicate my pessimism -- http://www.boasas.com/?c=1108
Jim G.
Jun 20, 2012, 2:46:07 PM6/20/12
to
Jaimie Vandenbergh sent the following on 6/20/2012 11:34 AM:
Overcompensation is never pretty. :)
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
A.G.McDowell
Jun 20, 2012, 4:15:22 PM6/20/12
to
On 19/06/2012 19:00, John H. wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> Thanks,
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> John
I don't know why Sea Wasp hasn't brought it up, but what about Marc C.
DuQuesne from E.E.Smith's Skylark books? He starts out as an almost
black and white villain (exception - his word is his bond) and ends up
saving humanity (albeit, mostly so he can use some chunk of it for his
own personal mega-experiment in eugenics). In all of this, his character
arguably doesn't change that much, but his circumstances change a lot -
which is worth thinking about in conjunction with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error. Also, of
course, he completely steals the show.
David DeLaney
Jun 20, 2012, 5:53:08 PM6/20/12
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>If you remember me explaining my theory
>that the Hogwarts House Sorting aims to
>bring out not the characteristics that
>the student, aged 11 or 12, already has,
>but their unrealised potential, then
>I don't need to do it all yet again, except
>to note again that many of the students in
>Gryffindor, the house for heroics, mostly
>aren't heroic to start with - they grow into it.
Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>If you remember me explaining my theory
>that the Hogwarts House Sorting aims to
>bring out not the characteristics that
>the student, aged 11 or 12, already has,
>but their unrealised potential, then
>I don't need to do it all yet again, except
>to note again that many of the students in
>Gryffindor, the house for heroics, mostly
>aren't heroic to start with - they grow into it.
_But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
me?_
Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
[...]
_Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
on fire._
"Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
lawn."
---
"I've decided it's not fair if mysterious old wizards give some people a
chance to be heroes and not others, and also I've read history books and
there aren't nearly enough girl heroes in them. So I thought I'd just drop
by and see if you wanted to be a hero and why are you glowing like that?"
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Robert Carnegie
Jun 20, 2012, 5:48:56 PM6/20/12
to
On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:48:44 PM UTC+1, Jim G. wrote:> [Darth Vader]
And the first thing he does is to seize
Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
Ball of Death. On the other hand, there's a
convenient chute from the cells to the trash
compactor. Complete with trash swamp monster.
(I do observe, however, that the monster
doesn't seem to be recently fed.)
> If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
> jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
> quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
> not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet.
Wasn't he project manager on both Death Stars?
> jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
> quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
> not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet.
And the first thing he does is to seize
Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
Ball of Death. On the other hand, there's a
convenient chute from the cells to the trash
compactor. Complete with trash swamp monster.
(I do observe, however, that the monster
doesn't seem to be recently fed.)
JRStern
Jun 20, 2012, 6:07:51 PM6/20/12
to
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:58:53 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>"John H." <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>>character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>>stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>
>>Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
original?
J.
>"John H." <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>>character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>>stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>>
>>Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
>The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
>trilogy.
How about Han Solo coming back to zap Vader at the end of the
>trilogy.
original?
J.
JRStern
Jun 20, 2012, 6:13:37 PM6/20/12
to
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT), "John H."
Ringworld Engineers.
In Glen Cook's "The White Rose" the shady sorcerer Bomanz redeems
himself by sacrificing himself to defeat a dragon. For that matter,
The Lady redeems herself as a lesser evil than her husband The
Dominator, and in fact it's never quite clear what her evil side ever
consisted of. Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
even another pirate.
J.
<john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
Louis Wu overcomes his tasp addiction and it even comes in handy in
>I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
Ringworld Engineers.
In Glen Cook's "The White Rose" the shady sorcerer Bomanz redeems
himself by sacrificing himself to defeat a dragon. For that matter,
The Lady redeems herself as a lesser evil than her husband The
Dominator, and in fact it's never quite clear what her evil side ever
consisted of. Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
even another pirate.
J.
Kip Williams
Jun 20, 2012, 6:21:36 PM6/20/12
to
JRStern wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT), "John H."
> <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Louis Wu overcomes his tasp addiction and it even comes in handy in
> Ringworld Engineers.
SPOILER:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT), "John H."
> <john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
>> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
>> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
>> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
>> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
>> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Louis Wu overcomes his tasp addiction and it even comes in handy in
> Ringworld Engineers.
Benito seems headed for some sort of redemption at the end of INFERNO.
Kip W
rasfw
Dr. Rufo
Jun 20, 2012, 7:31:36 PM6/20/12
to
least *I* might better appreciate them.
Thanks,
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jun 20, 2012, 7:34:22 PM6/20/12
to
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo" <bay...@verizon.net>
wrote:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"People can be educated beyond their intelligence" -- Marilyn vos Savant
wrote:
>David DeLaney wrote:
>>
>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>
>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>> me?_
>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>> [...]
>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>> on fire._
>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>> lawn."
>>
>
> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>least *I* might better appreciate them.
Oho! You have fun in store. Have a link:
>>
>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>
>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>> me?_
>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>> [...]
>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>> on fire._
>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>> lawn."
>>
>
> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>least *I* might better appreciate them.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"People can be educated beyond their intelligence" -- Marilyn vos Savant
Jim G.
Jun 20, 2012, 7:32:35 PM6/20/12
to
Robert Carnegie sent the following on 6/20/2012 4:48 PM:
> And the first thing he does is to seize
> Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
> room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
> Ball of Death. On the other hand, there's a
> convenient chute from the cells to the trash
> compactor. Complete with trash swamp monster.
> (I do observe, however, that the monster
> doesn't seem to be recently fed.)
Heh. There's so much that's truly mock-worthy and yet I still enjoy it
whenever I give it another look.
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
"I find it's best if you just ... go with it." -- Lincoln Lee, providing
us with FRINGE's "Every question just leads to more questions" moment
> On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:48:44 PM UTC+1, Jim G. wrote:> [Darth Vader]
>> If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
>> jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
>> quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
>> not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet.
>
> Wasn't he project manager on both Death Stars?
No. He was head of the Promotions Board.
>> If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
>> jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels. (There was
>> quite an attrition rate for the admiralty there for a while.) And it's
>> not as if he was the one who opted to blow up an entire planet.
>
> Wasn't he project manager on both Death Stars?
> And the first thing he does is to seize
> Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
> room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
> Ball of Death. On the other hand, there's a
> convenient chute from the cells to the trash
> compactor. Complete with trash swamp monster.
> (I do observe, however, that the monster
> doesn't seem to be recently fed.)
whenever I give it another look.
--
Jim G. | Waukesha, WI
us with FRINGE's "Every question just leads to more questions" moment
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 20, 2012, 7:45:34 PM6/20/12
to
Rationality".
> Thanks,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 20, 2012, 7:47:13 PM6/20/12
to
On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>
>>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>>
>>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>>> me?_
>>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>>> [...]
>>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>>> on fire._
>>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>>> lawn."
>>>
>>
>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>
> Oho! You have fun in store.
Or not, depending on taste!
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>
>>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>>
>>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>>> me?_
>>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>>> [...]
>>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>>> on fire._
>>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>>> lawn."
>>>
>>
>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>
> Oho! You have fun in store.
Yes, it couldn't very well have been anything else.
>
> Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few gems that
shine like the sun.
Dr. Rufo
Jun 20, 2012, 8:14:39 PM6/20/12
to
I recognize the title and recall clearly that I once some time trying
to wade through the first few pages.
Nothing there appealed to me.
Thanks again.
Dr. Rufo
Jun 20, 2012, 8:22:25 PM6/20/12
to
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
< snip >
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>
>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>
> Or not, depending on taste!
>
> Have a link:
>> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
>>
>
> Yes, it couldn't very well have been anything else.
>
>>
>> Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
>
> Fanfic is just "slush pile". Which means that most of it is
> unmitigated trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few
> gems that shine like the sun.
>
>
Your last two lines bring to mind Heinlein's puff for _The Mote in
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>
>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>
> Or not, depending on taste!
>
> Have a link:
>> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
>>
>
> Yes, it couldn't very well have been anything else.
>
>>
>> Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
>
> Fanfic is just "slush pile". Which means that most of it is
> unmitigated trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few
> gems that shine like the sun.
>
>
God's Eye_:
"possibly the finest science fiction novel I have ever read" ;-)
Dr. Rufo
Jun 20, 2012, 8:28:17 PM6/20/12
to
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 6/20/12 7:31 PM, Dr. Rufo wrote:
>>
>>
>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
< snip >
>>
>>
>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>
>
> Undoubtedly from that popular fanfic "Harry Potter and the Methods
> of Rationality".
>
>> Thanks,
>
>
enjoyed reading your _Grand Central Arena_ which I only got to a couple
of weeks ago. I was entertained on several levels and I'm eagerly
awaiting the sequel.
Congratulations! It represents some very good work!
Thank you again for the enjoyment I derived from my reading it.
David Dyer-Bennet
Jun 20, 2012, 8:30:14 PM6/20/12
to
willing to go WAY too far to further his own small self-interests (he's
clearly done murder). I'm not sure he actually gets any better,
though -- he just gets grander ambitions.
At the end of Skylark Duquesne, he and his friend from the Rare Metals
Lab go off to found their meritocratic empire. I do wonder how Smith
imagined that turning out; in some ways, I think Seaton's experience on
Ray-See-Nee or whatever it was called kind of pre-figures how it has to
turn out -- business as usual will win out. So it's going to be a grand
tragedy for Duquesne and Hunky. I wonder who would be best to write
that story?
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
David Dyer-Bennet
Jun 20, 2012, 8:32:21 PM6/20/12
to
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>>>
>>>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>>>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>>>> me?_
>>>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>>>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>>>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>>>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>>>> [...]
>>>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>>>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>>>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>>>> on fire._
>>>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>>>> lawn."
>>>>
>>>
>>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>
>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>
> Or not, depending on taste!
I found the first three chapters uttery brilliant. And didn't make it
> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then:
>>>>
>>>> _But what would the Hufflepuffs find in me, who never belonged in their
>>>> House? Acid words, cutting wit, disdain for their inability to keep up with
>>>> me?_
>>>> Now it was the Hat's thoughts that were slow, hesitant. "I must Sort for the
>>>> good of all the students in all the Houses... but I think you could learn to
>>>> be a good Hufflepuff, and not too out of place there. You will be happier in
>>>> Hufflepuff than in any other house; that is the truth."
>>>> [...]
>>>> _Professor McGonagall said that if 'the one who did the Sorting' tried to
>>>> push me into Gryffindor, I was to remind you that she might well be
>>>> Headmistress someday, at which point she would have the authority to set you
>>>> on fire._
>>>> "Tell her I called her an impudent youngster and told her to get off my
>>>> lawn."
>>>>
>>>
>>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>
>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>
> Or not, depending on taste!
past something like chapter 7, I think.
Dr. Rufo
Jun 20, 2012, 8:33:48 PM6/20/12
to
Robert Carnegie
Jun 20, 2012, 9:08:08 PM6/20/12
to
On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 10:53:08 PM UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >If you remember me explaining my theory
> >that the Hogwarts House Sorting aims to
> >bring out not the characteristics that
> >the student, aged 11 or 12, already has,
> >but their unrealised potential, then
> >I don't need to do it all yet again, except
> >to note again that many of the students in
> >Gryffindor, the house for heroics, mostly
> >aren't heroic to start with - they grow into it.
>
> Heh. A pair of quotes for you then: [...]
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
> >If you remember me explaining my theory
> >that the Hogwarts House Sorting aims to
> >bring out not the characteristics that
> >the student, aged 11 or 12, already has,
> >but their unrealised potential, then
> >I don't need to do it all yet again, except
> >to note again that many of the students in
> >Gryffindor, the house for heroics, mostly
> >aren't heroic to start with - they grow into it.
>
I don't know this material either. I think
in my version, Hufflepuff is the house for
students with nothing wrong with them.
Allowing that the Hat is synthesised from
the brains of four founding wizards with
at least three biased theories of picking
the best students, including "pure blood",
and is a compromise rather than one wise
authority's best effort. And it /is/ liable
to Sort you for unrealised potential that
you have in fact started to realise yourself -
so that it /does/ follow your pre-formed
identity. And, it doesn't always turn out
ideally well.
But, why wasn't Cedric Diggory learning
heroism in Gryffindor? I propose that he
didn't need to. It was brought out in
him anyway. Whereas Hermione Grainger
and Neville Longbottom did have to
learn that.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 20, 2012, 9:53:55 PM6/20/12
to
On 6/20/12 8:28 PM, Dr. Rufo wrote:
>
>
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 6/20/12 7:31 PM, Dr. Rufo wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
> < snip >
>
>>>
>>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>>
>>
>> Undoubtedly from that popular fanfic "Harry Potter and the Methods of
>> Rationality".
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>
>>
> Apropos of nothing at all, I did want to tell you that I very much
> enjoyed reading your _Grand Central Arena_ which I only got to a couple
> of weeks ago. I was entertained on several levels and I'm eagerly
> awaiting the sequel.
Thanks! I'm about two chapters from finishing it, I think.
>
>
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 6/20/12 7:31 PM, Dr. Rufo wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
> < snip >
>
>>>
>>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>> least *I* might better appreciate them.
>>>
>>
>> Undoubtedly from that popular fanfic "Harry Potter and the Methods of
>> Rationality".
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>
>>
> Apropos of nothing at all, I did want to tell you that I very much
> enjoyed reading your _Grand Central Arena_ which I only got to a couple
> of weeks ago. I was entertained on several levels and I'm eagerly
> awaiting the sequel.
> Congratulations! It represents some very good work!
> Thank you again for the enjoyment I derived from my reading it.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 20, 2012, 9:55:11 PM6/20/12
to
WOULD read it if a certain event happened. I was told the event
happened, and read the story, and found I was rooked, at least in my view.
David DeLaney
Jun 20, 2012, 11:49:15 PM6/20/12
to
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
published ones.) It's not for everyone - Sea Wasp doesn't really like it that
much, for example.
The quotes are from chapter 10 and chapter 69. It's not finished, though
there's been a delay since the last posted chapter. Right now it reaches to
around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
canon books put together...
>"Dr. Rufo" <bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>least *I* might better appreciate them.
>
>Oho! You have fun in store. Have a link:
>< http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality >
>Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
>> Would you, please, provide the source(s) of these quotes so that, at
>>least *I* might better appreciate them.
>
>Oho! You have fun in store. Have a link:
>< http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality >
>Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
published ones.) It's not for everyone - Sea Wasp doesn't really like it that
much, for example.
The quotes are from chapter 10 and chapter 69. It's not finished, though
there's been a delay since the last posted chapter. Right now it reaches to
around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
canon books put together...
David DeLaney
Jun 20, 2012, 11:52:11 PM6/20/12
to
JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
>"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
>and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
>which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
>even another pirate.
There are several stories about that ship and crew, actually; some more
>Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
>"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
>and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
>which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
>even another pirate.
appear in An Empire Unacquainted With Defeat, I think it is.
David DeLaney
Jun 21, 2012, 12:00:41 AM6/21/12
to
Dr. Rufo <bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
its moments of Awesome. I guess maybe possibly my having not top-quality
finely-honed tastes allows me to enjoy it rather more?
(And yeah, Harry's an eleven-year-old socially-maladjusted dick in the first
several pages. He gets his first real comeuppance on page 10 while interacting
with the Sorting Hat, and several more afterwards, until he himself realizes
that yes, there DOES seem to be Something Wrong With Harry Potter... and
meanwhile Draco Malfoy, Hermione Granger, Neville Longbottom, and others are
each stealing their own corners of the scenery to gnaw upon. And Professors
Quirrel, Snape, and McGonagall, and the Headmaster Albus Percival Wulfric Brian
Dumbledore...)
>Dr. Rufo wrote:
>> Thank you for the prompt response.
>> I recognize the title and recall clearly that I once some time
>> trying to wade through the first few pages.
>> Nothing there appealed to me.
>> Thanks again.
>
> Shucks! What I meant to type was: "I once spent some time trying to
>wade through the first few pages."
Sadface. Oh well. It has its various moments of WTF or preachiness, but also
>> Thank you for the prompt response.
>> I recognize the title and recall clearly that I once some time
>> trying to wade through the first few pages.
>> Nothing there appealed to me.
>> Thanks again.
>
> Shucks! What I meant to type was: "I once spent some time trying to
>wade through the first few pages."
its moments of Awesome. I guess maybe possibly my having not top-quality
finely-honed tastes allows me to enjoy it rather more?
(And yeah, Harry's an eleven-year-old socially-maladjusted dick in the first
several pages. He gets his first real comeuppance on page 10 while interacting
with the Sorting Hat, and several more afterwards, until he himself realizes
that yes, there DOES seem to be Something Wrong With Harry Potter... and
meanwhile Draco Malfoy, Hermione Granger, Neville Longbottom, and others are
each stealing their own corners of the scenery to gnaw upon. And Professors
Quirrel, Snape, and McGonagall, and the Headmaster Albus Percival Wulfric Brian
Dumbledore...)
David DeLaney
Jun 21, 2012, 1:09:39 AM6/21/12
to
David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
>published ones.)
In my defense, this is only my own opinion. I'm not trying to make it into
>It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
>published ones.)
physical law or anything.
Dave, realizing how the above sounded only AFTER posting it
Moriarty
Jun 21, 2012, 12:49:02 AM6/21/12
to
On Jun 21, 3:09 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> >It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
> >published ones.)
>
> In my defense, this is only my own opinion. I'm not trying to make it into
> physical law or anything.
All my opinions are immutable physical laws. Why should yours be any
> David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> >It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
> >published ones.)
>
> In my defense, this is only my own opinion. I'm not trying to make it into
> physical law or anything.
different?
-Moriarty
David Goldfarb
Jun 21, 2012, 3:28:36 AM6/21/12
to
In article <slrnju553...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>< http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
> Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality >
Also <http://hpmor.com/>, where you can view the Author's Notes and
supplementary material as well.
>Right now it reaches to
>around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
>canon books put together...
Well, to be fair the author seems to be cramming all the thematic
material of the entire series into that first year.
--
David Goldfarb | "Life is a simile."
goldf...@gmail.com |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Terry Carr
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>< http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
> Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality >
Also <http://hpmor.com/>, where you can view the Author's Notes and
supplementary material as well.
>Right now it reaches to
>around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
>canon books put together...
material of the entire series into that first year.
--
David Goldfarb | "Life is a simile."
goldf...@gmail.com |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Terry Carr
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 21, 2012, 8:07:51 AM6/21/12
to
On 6/21/12 1:09 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> David DeLaney<d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
>> published ones.)
>
> In my defense, this is only my own opinion. I'm not trying to make it into
> physical law or anything.
>
No, you put in an "I think", which takes away the Pronouncement Of God
> David DeLaney<d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>> It is in the top ten fanfics ever written, I think. (Including some of the
>> published ones.)
>
> In my defense, this is only my own opinion. I'm not trying to make it into
> physical law or anything.
>
characteristic.
I don't particularly LIKE HP&tMoR, but it IS extremely well written and
a perfectly cromulent story, so it's certainly way up there in quality.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 21, 2012, 8:10:53 AM6/21/12
to
On 6/21/12 3:28 AM, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article<slrnju553...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> David DeLaney<d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>> < http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
>> Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality>
>
> Also<http://hpmor.com/>, where you can view the Author's Notes and
> supplementary material as well.
>
>> Right now it reaches to
>> around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
>> canon books put together...
>
> Well, to be fair the author seems to be cramming all the thematic
> material of the entire series into that first year.
>
I'm expecting that he's not going to be doing seven books; Moldywart's
> In article<slrnju553...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> David DeLaney<d...@vic.com> wrote:
>>> < http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/
>> Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality>
>
> Also<http://hpmor.com/>, where you can view the Author's Notes and
> supplementary material as well.
>
>> Right now it reaches to
>> around May or so of first year. It's currently longer than the first four
>> canon books put together...
>
> Well, to be fair the author seems to be cramming all the thematic
> material of the entire series into that first year.
>
plans are probably going to come totally apart by the end of Year One
and the rest of Harry's days at Hogwarts will be (relatively)
trouble-free (and thus not written about).
Michael Stemper
Jun 21, 2012, 8:15:32 AM6/21/12
to
In article <ylfkvcil...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> David DeLaney wrote:
[HP&tMoR]
>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>>
>> Or not, depending on taste!
>
>I found the first three chapters uttery brilliant. And didn't make it
>past something like chapter 7, I think.
Chapter 20. I lost interest in the early 30s, and finally realized it
in the mid-40s.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.
Anthony Nance
Jun 21, 2012, 8:35:44 AM6/21/12
to
David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
> JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>>Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
>>"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
>>and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
>>which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
>>even another pirate.
>
> There are several stories about that ship and crew, actually; some more
> appear in An Empire Unacquainted With Defeat, I think it is.
Yup - and "Call for the Dead" is included in AEUWD.
> JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>>Cook loves this theme, and a standalone short story
>>"Call For The Dead" is about the damned crew of a ghost pirate ship,
>>and how if they can just figure it out there is a way off after all,
>>which apparently consists of a sacrificial act to benefit another -
>>even another pirate.
>
> There are several stories about that ship and crew, actually; some more
> appear in An Empire Unacquainted With Defeat, I think it is.
- Tony
tphile2
Jun 21, 2012, 9:02:56 AM6/21/12
to
On Jun 20, 6:47 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> >http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of...
masters of the craft. It's just that the pro makes a living from it
and the fan is more for the fun and self satisfaction. More and more
I am finding good and even great stories written online, not for sale
but for the fun of it. or other reasons.
>
> Yes, it couldn't very well have been anything else.
>
>
>
> > Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
>
> Fanfic is just "slush pile". Which means that most of it is unmitigated
> trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few gems that
> shine like the sun.
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:http://seawasp.livejournal.com
That can be said about Pro-Fic as well. Both can be from talent and
> Yes, it couldn't very well have been anything else.
>
>
>
> > Don't be put off by the fanfic label.
>
> Fanfic is just "slush pile". Which means that most of it is unmitigated
> trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few gems that
> shine like the sun.
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:http://seawasp.livejournal.com
masters of the craft. It's just that the pro makes a living from it
and the fan is more for the fun and self satisfaction. More and more
I am finding good and even great stories written online, not for sale
but for the fun of it. or other reasons.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jun 21, 2012, 9:20:11 AM6/21/12
to
On 6/21/12 9:02 AM, tphile2 wrote:
> On Jun 20, 6:47 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> On Jun 20, 6:47 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> Fanfic is just "slush pile". Which means that most of it is unmitigated
>> trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few gems that
>> shine like the sun.
>> trash, but buried within will be some good stuff, and a few gems that
>> shine like the sun.
> That can be said about Pro-Fic as well.
Yes, but it's more true for fanfic. Pro-fic is the stuff that GOT OUT
of the slush pile; whether you believe it or not, ALL of it is something
that was considered "good" and stood out above 99% of the competition.
Sturgeon's Law applies twice or maybe three times to fanfic, because
there IS no one sorting out the slush. You're diving into the slush pile
and looking for gold.
Now, fanfic DOES have one huge advantage over most profic -- you can at
least narrow down the KIND of thing you want to find vastly better, with
well-known and objective categories ("Harry Potter", "Star Trek", "CSI
Miami", etc.) which in and of themselves define a huge amount about the
target fics, as opposed to original fiction which you'd have to search
by concepts or keywords which won't be nearly so restrictive unless you
already have a specific idea that you are looking for (that is, it's
easy to search for Honor Harrington if you know that such books exist --
type in "Honor Harrington" -- but if you don't know that specific
character exists, you have to search (assuming a search engine and
database existed) for much broader categories which may not get you
exactly what you want.)
Juho Julkunen
Jun 21, 2012, 10:14:23 AM6/21/12
to
In article <0a0c8493-a708-4ac0...@googlegroups.com>,
rja.ca...@excite.com says...
--
Juho Julkunen
rja.ca...@excite.com says...
>
> On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:48:44 PM UTC+1, Jim G. wrote:> [Darth Vader]
> > If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
> > jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels.
>
> On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:48:44 PM UTC+1, Jim G. wrote:> [Darth Vader]
> > If you think about it, we saw him kill a lot more of the incompetent and
> > jackbooted thug types in the original trilogy than rebels.
>
> Wasn't he project manager on both Death Stars?
> And the first thing he does is to seize
> Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
> room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
> Ball of Death.
http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/109.html
> Princess Leia's spaceship - and there isn't
> room for lots of prisoners on the Happy Fun
> Ball of Death.
--
Juho Julkunen
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Jun 21, 2012, 11:17:01 AM6/21/12
to
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:15:32 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <ylfkvcil...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>
>[HP&tMoR]
>
>>>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>>>
>>> Or not, depending on taste!
>>
>>I found the first three chapters uttery brilliant. And didn't make it
>>past something like chapter 7, I think.
>
>My experience was similar, although I was still raving about it around
>Chapter 20. I lost interest in the early 30s, and finally realized it
>in the mid-40s.
The whole three-way-battles thing bored the crap out of me, but it
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <ylfkvcil...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:
>>> On 6/20/12 7:34 PM, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:31:36 -0700, "Dr. Rufo"<bay...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> David DeLaney wrote:
>
>[HP&tMoR]
>
>>>> Oho! You have fun in store.
>>>
>>> Or not, depending on taste!
>>
>>I found the first three chapters uttery brilliant. And didn't make it
>>past something like chapter 7, I think.
>
>My experience was similar, although I was still raving about it around
>Chapter 20. I lost interest in the early 30s, and finally realized it
>in the mid-40s.
perked up again straight after.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by infinity is
to contemplate the extent of human stupidity." -- Voltaire
Robert Carnegie
Jun 21, 2012, 11:50:42 AM6/21/12
to
have that lock from outside?
(Well... probably all of them. The only
person who shouldn't be locked up is the
Emperor, and, duh, Force. No problem.)
A feature of British science fiction show
and novels, _Red Dwarf_, not shown in
_Star Wars_:[*] getting around from place to
place takes a /long/ time. Elevators
have in-flight meals. You can take a
fortnight walking holiday around the
engine deck.
[*] A novel way of getting through a
Death Star /fast/ is depicted in
_Return of the Jedi_.
Mark Zenier
Jun 20, 2012, 1:46:56 PM6/20/12
to
In article <0gf2u719rmv2j2a69...@4ax.com>,
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 01:27:06 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <proto-7381B7....@news.panix.com>,
>>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>In article
>>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>>
>>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>>
>>Sibling!
>
>We're a big family.
Did anyone else not get any further than the promotional TV show
about the making of Phantom Menace?
For me, The "Moment of Total Failure" was the clip showing the cute
little flying alien mechanic surviving gettting sucked through the speed
racer's turbine engine, thereupon I realized that Lucas had turned the
franchise into cartoons for tolerant five year olds. And JarJar as the
floppy alien Stepen Fetchit was just the frosting on the cake.
Saved me the cost of admission, so I guess I won't ask for that hour back.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 01:27:06 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <proto-7381B7....@news.panix.com>,
>>Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>In article
>>><b7873631-631e-4f40...@j25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>>> tphile2 <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMHO the best order to watch it is, #4, #5 then flash back to #1, #2,
>>>> #3 and end it with #6 Return of the Jedi. That preserves the spoiler
>>>> revelation in Empire and the gap in time of Empire and Return. Insert
>>>> the animated stuff where you will.
>>>
>>>IMAO, #4,#5,#6 and the others never happened on my timeline.
>>
>>Sibling!
>
>We're a big family.
Did anyone else not get any further than the promotional TV show
about the making of Phantom Menace?
For me, The "Moment of Total Failure" was the clip showing the cute
little flying alien mechanic surviving gettting sucked through the speed
racer's turbine engine, thereupon I realized that Lucas had turned the
franchise into cartoons for tolerant five year olds. And JarJar as the
floppy alien Stepen Fetchit was just the frosting on the cake.
Saved me the cost of admission, so I guess I won't ask for that hour back.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Michael Stemper
Jun 21, 2012, 1:32:49 PM6/21/12
to
>>In article <0s02u7pdbae1e8tph...@4ax.com>, jai...@sometimes.sessile.org says...
>[Star Wars: Episode I
>>
>>Well, it was by a mediocre director who hadn't directed anything for a
>>couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
>>rusty.
>>
>>Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
>>War.
I don't recall anything like that, but haven't seen it in several
years. Are the parallels written up on-line somewhere? If not, could
you summarize them?
>>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>>Back.
>
>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
>[Star Wars: Episode I
>>
>>Well, it was by a mediocre director who hadn't directed anything for a
>>couple of decades. The other two are better, as Lucas was at least less
>>rusty.
>>
>>Episode II has all sorts of interesting parallels to the American Civil
>>War.
I don't recall anything like that, but haven't seen it in several
years. Are the parallels written up on-line somewhere? If not, could
you summarize them?
>>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>>Back.
>
>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
JRStern
Jun 21, 2012, 3:49:24 PM6/21/12
to
individually and CftD was one of the two or three earliest.
I think I did read one or two others, but that CftD just stood out for
me.
And on the topic - there is a way off for the pirates *individually*.
J.
tinkoo
Jun 22, 2012, 2:39:22 AM6/22/12
to
Eric Frank Russell - "I Am Nothing"
Evil dictator has a change of heart when he meets a victim of his
senseless violence.
On 19/6/2012 11:30 PM, John H. wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> Thanks,
> John
--
http://variety-sf.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/varietysf
Evil dictator has a change of heart when he meets a victim of his
senseless violence.
On 19/6/2012 11:30 PM, John H. wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
>
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of SF as well.
>
> Thanks,
> John
http://variety-sf.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/varietysf
Brian M. Scott
Jun 22, 2012, 10:12:59 AM6/22/12
to
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT), "John H."
<john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote in
<news:3039d712-71b6-4ce7...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the
> redemption of one of the main characters. The best SF
> example I can think of is the character of Peter Wiggin
> in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much stories of
> heroes doing great deeds, but stories of
> fallen/evil/amoral characters that over the course of the
> novel or series morph into heroes (or, at least more
> sympathetic characters).
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of
> SF as well.
L. Jagi Lamplighter's _Prospero's Daughter_ trilogy arguably
fits; Miranda is never wholly unsympathetic, but she
certainly becomes considerably more sympathetic over the
course of the trilogy.
Brian
<john.he...@jrfcorp.net> wrote in
<news:3039d712-71b6-4ce7...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the
> redemption of one of the main characters. The best SF
> example I can think of is the character of Peter Wiggin
> in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much stories of
> heroes doing great deeds, but stories of
> fallen/evil/amoral characters that over the course of the
> novel or series morph into heroes (or, at least more
> sympathetic characters).
> Any suggestions? I’d be interested in novels outside of
> SF as well.
fits; Miranda is never wholly unsympathetic, but she
certainly becomes considerably more sympathetic over the
course of the trilogy.
Brian
David Johnston
Jun 22, 2012, 2:58:28 PM6/22/12
to
On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 4:07:51 PM UTC-6, JRStern wrote:
> >The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> >trilogy.
>
> How about Han Solo coming back to zap Vader at the end of the
> original?
>
> J.
Han Solo's evolution into a dedicated hero is a better example of a redemption story.
> >The redemption of Darth Vader at the end of the second Star Wars
> >trilogy.
>
> How about Han Solo coming back to zap Vader at the end of the
> original?
>
> J.
Han Solo's evolution into a dedicated hero is a better example of a redemption story.
Howard Brazee
Jun 22, 2012, 6:14:28 PM6/22/12
to
It seems that Bujold is constantly having characters doing things that
need redemption - then redeeming themselves.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
need redemption - then redeeming themselves.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
art...@yahoo.com
Jun 24, 2012, 11:29:12 AM6/24/12
to
On Jun 19, 2:00 pm, "John H." <john.heitmul...@jrfcorp.net> wrote:
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
Not a novel, but Another Earth, is a SF-ish movie with that as a main
> I am looking for novels where the plot involves the redemption of one
> of the main characters. The best SF example I can think of is the
> character of Peter Wiggin in the Ender’s Game series. So, not so much
> stories of heroes doing great deeds, but stories of fallen/evil/amoral
> characters that over the course of the novel or series morph into
> heroes (or, at least more sympathetic characters).
theme. A young gets in a car accident while under the influence and
kills a woman and her kid and seriously hurts her husband. Meanwhile,
a parallel earth has just been discovered. Her redemption directly
involves the new earth.
William December Starr
Jun 24, 2012, 8:33:02 PM6/24/12
to
In article <egu6u7t9guuqps44r...@4ax.com>,
JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> said:
> I think I did read one or two others, but that ["Call for the
> Dead"] just stood out for me.
managed to successfully jump ship off the Flying Dutchman after a
few centuries of service. The punchline was that the vessel that
plucked him out of the water was named the Mary Celeste.
-- wds
JRStern <JRS...@foobar.invalid> said:
> I think I did read one or two others, but that ["Call for the
> Dead"] just stood out for me.
>
> And on the topic - there is a way off for the pirates
> *individually*.
Vaguely on-topic, I remember a short-short story about a crewman who
> And on the topic - there is a way off for the pirates
> *individually*.
managed to successfully jump ship off the Flying Dutchman after a
few centuries of service. The punchline was that the vessel that
plucked him out of the water was named the Mary Celeste.
-- wds
jack...@bright.net
Jun 27, 2012, 12:16:01 AM6/27/12
to
Michael Stemper wrote:
>In article <0di3u7da9ss2ismir...@4ax.com>, jack...@bright.net writes:
>>Juho Julkunen wrote:
>
>>[Star Wars: Episode I
>In article <0di3u7da9ss2ismir...@4ax.com>, jack...@bright.net writes:
>>Juho Julkunen wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>>>Back.
>>
>>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
>
>Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
>on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
Remember Han and Luke have a short adventure at the beginning of ESB,
>
>>>Episode III is the second best of the bunch after The Empire Strikes
>>>Back.
>>
>>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
>
>Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
>on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
then go to separate plot threads for most of the movie.
Obi-Wan and Anakin have a short adventure at the beginning of AotC,
chasing the alleged assassin of the Queen (no, she'd been promoted to
Senator by then), then they separate, Obi alone, and Ani with the
Princess... er, Senator. In this movie, Kenobi has the asteroid
chase, the visit to a planet (two!) secretly helping the enemy, the
capture, and the torture. Skywalker has the time alone for mushy
stuff, but still also has an encounter with the Dark Side of the
Force. He's then drawn to rescue his friend, and ends up having to
have his own bacon pulled from the fire. As Lucas now has the full
resources of a galaxy rather than just a rag-tag band of rebels, the
rescue is a much bigger deal. By the last scene of each movie
-Skywalker and the girl staring out a window- we have a sense of
completion in AotC, she's been brought back where she belongs. There's
more story: the Clone Army of the Republic on the march, but not the
feeling that the movie isn't over we get in ESB, with Luke saying,
"Lando, Chewie, we'll meet you at the r---"
(Each prequel movie parallels the construction of it's corresponding
original movie.
(As the two droids meet Luke, who takes them to Old Ben, then to Han
and Chewie, who don't quite take them to Alderaan, but to a place
where they rescue Leia, then on to hook up with the rebels for a big
kaboom and medal ceremony, our two Jedi meet Jar-Jar, who takes them
to the Queen, then to her pilot (and R2 and Padme) who don't quite get
to Coruscant, but they do pick up this kid before talking to the
Senate, breaking the blockade, and declaring peace.
(Revenge starts off assuming backstory, since no one needed rescuing
from the previous movie. Once that's out of the way, our heroes
separate again, to tackle different aspects of the problem... and I'm
not remembering much of it right now...)
--
-Jack
Harold Hill
Jun 27, 2012, 9:43:52 AM6/27/12
to
On Jun 24, 8:33 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> In article <egu6u7t9guuqps44rf66bk07m1sh7fd...@4ax.com>,
--
-Harold Hill
> In article <egu6u7t9guuqps44rf66bk07m1sh7fd...@4ax.com>,
> JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> said:
>
> > I think I did read one or two others, but that ["Call for the
> > Dead"] just stood out for me.
>
> > And on the topic - there is a way off for the pirates
> > *individually*.
>
> Vaguely on-topic, I remember a short-short story about a crewman who
> managed to successfully jump ship off the Flying Dutchman after a
> few centuries of service. The punchline was that the vessel that
> plucked him out of the water was named the Mary Celeste.
>
> -- wds
"And I Alone Escaped To Tell Thee", Roger Zelanzy?
>
> > I think I did read one or two others, but that ["Call for the
> > Dead"] just stood out for me.
>
> > And on the topic - there is a way off for the pirates
> > *individually*.
>
> Vaguely on-topic, I remember a short-short story about a crewman who
> managed to successfully jump ship off the Flying Dutchman after a
> few centuries of service. The punchline was that the vessel that
> plucked him out of the water was named the Mary Celeste.
>
> -- wds
--
-Harold Hill
Anthony Nance
Jun 27, 2012, 11:59:25 AM6/27/12
to
Harold Hill <kyle.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
Good catch - that must surely be it. Per isfdb, the actual title is
"And I Only Am Escaped to Tell Thee" , and it appears most notably in
the collection _Unicorn Variations_ (where I first ran across it, but
couldn't remember it by name until mentioned above) and the anthology
_100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories_ .
Tonny
"And I Only Am Escaped to Tell Thee" , and it appears most notably in
the collection _Unicorn Variations_ (where I first ran across it, but
couldn't remember it by name until mentioned above) and the anthology
_100 Great Fantasy Short Short Stories_ .
Tonny
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 27, 2012, 12:22:28 PM6/27/12
to
In article <jsfakt$dja$1...@dont-email.me>,
There's always the Tom Holt novel about the F.D., whose name
(Hal has just informed me) is _Flying Dutch._
And the Charles Addams cartoon, twentieth-century ship with
tattered-looking sailing vessel in background. Signalman to
captain: "Netherlands registry, sir; something about a curse."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
(Hal has just informed me) is _Flying Dutch._
And the Charles Addams cartoon, twentieth-century ship with
tattered-looking sailing vessel in background. Signalman to
captain: "Netherlands registry, sir; something about a curse."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Michael Stemper
Jun 29, 2012, 8:49:19 AM6/29/12
to
In article <6fnku7drcbvht80kc...@4ax.com>, jack...@bright.net writes:
>Michael Stemper wrote:
>>In article <0di3u7da9ss2ismir...@4ax.com>, jack...@bright.net writes:
>>>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>>>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>>>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
>>
>>Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
>>on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
>
>Remember Han and Luke have a short adventure at the beginning of ESB,
>then go to separate plot threads for most of the movie.
[snip remainder of nicely thought-out description of parallels]
>Michael Stemper wrote:
>>In article <0di3u7da9ss2ismir...@4ax.com>, jack...@bright.net writes:
>>>How can that be, when episode II is better than III? Castigated
>>>though I may be, I will even state that Attack of the Clones improves
>>>upon the plot structure of The Empire Strikes Back while repeating it.
>>
>>Again, I'm handicapped by having neither a working VCR nor Episode II
>>on DVD. I really can't think of how the two plots parallel each other.
>
>Remember Han and Luke have a short adventure at the beginning of ESB,
>then go to separate plot threads for most of the movie.
That all made a lot of sense, and it's (obvioiusly) something that I
never noticed. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
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