REVIEW: "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett (no spoilers)
Robert Sneddon
GNU is the code that carries the names of the Dead Men, Sending them
Home in the Overhead...
The bubble has burst and the clacks are in the hands of the inadventure
capitalists, the ledger-eyed quick-buck merchants, the parlour pirates
who squeeze and squeeze and pay no heed to the future or the problems of
machines and men who break so easily. Lord Vetenari sends Moist von
Lipwig, a fraudster and con-man to deal with the problem, and knowing
human nature he sends a golem after Ludwig. Thus begins a tale of Dead
Letters, Postman's Knock and the revivication of an ancient and moribund
Ankh-Morpork institution, the daily delivery.
This story is a study of a man for whom the game is everything and of a
man who didn't think that small but who couldn't think big enough in the
end. We meet Pratchett's famous characters in all their eccentric glory;
hereditary Postman Groat and his exploding trousers, Mad Adrian the
clacker-hacker and his chums, Adora Bell Dearheart the impoverished
heiress and many others, but most of this book is dedicated to illusion
and the clouding of men's minds and how those illuded really want there
to be a queen on the left of the little rickety card table at a
convenient street corner with three ready exits, even if they are
certain the queen is really under the table because you never know...
The in-jokes are there, perhaps needing a little explanation for those
not of a certain age and a British upbringing -- for example Stanley the
pin collector would, in the UK be an avid reader of the Stanley Gibbons
stamp catalogues.
I didn't find this book as deeply engrossing as, say, "Night Watch".
Technically it is, of course, well written. The one-liners do their
little dance when appropriate, raising smiles and the occasional laugh
but it fails to resonate and the "Oh yes." moments are fewer and further
between than previous, more trenchant books.
7 out of 10.
--
Email me via nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
This address no longer accepts HTML posts.
Robert Sneddon
Andrew Plotkin
>
> I didn't find this book as deeply engrossing as, say, "Night Watch".
> Technically it is, of course, well written. The one-liners do their
> little dance when appropriate, raising smiles and the occasional laugh
> but it fails to resonate and the "Oh yes." moments are fewer and further
> between than previous, more trenchant books.
"Not as engrossing as Night Watch" is leaves room for... just about
all the other Discworld books. GP is still in the top end of the
series, I say.
Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
Weatherwax crutch.[**]
[*] Except for Lord Vetinari, who is slowly coming to rival the
above-mentioned characters as one of Pratchett's great creations.
Slowly, because we've never had Vetinari as a viewpoint for more than
a couple of pages. I suddenly consider the idea of a Vetinari book.
I go through "Come on, it wouldn't work at all" to "Um maybe Pratchett
could pull it off" to "I'll be hiding under the sofa. Don't mind me."
in about eight seconds of contemplation. Don't mind me.
[**] Rincewind doesn't count as a crutch because he can't hold up a
story.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Damien Neil
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
> Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
> story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
> and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
> characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
> can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
> Weatherwax crutch.[**]
Speaking of which, I just finished _Monstrous Regiment_, and felt it
would have been much improved without the deus ex Vimes. (Or should
that be Vimes ex machina?) It was painfully unnecessary; Vimes appears
on only a handful of pages, and serves no real purpose other than to
detract from the efforts of the protagonists.
- Damien
Robert Sneddon
>Here, Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I didn't find this book as deeply engrossing as, say, "Night Watch".
>> Technically it is, of course, well written. The one-liners do their
>> little dance when appropriate, raising smiles and the occasional laugh
>> but it fails to resonate and the "Oh yes." moments are fewer and further
>> between than previous, more trenchant books.
>
>"Not as engrossing as Night Watch" is leaves room for... just about
>all the other Discworld books. GP is still in the top end of the
>series, I say.
I put "Night Watch" high up on the good/bad scale because it didn't
rely so much on the belt-fed gags to carry the reader forward. People
died in "Night Watch", people you got used to, got to know and you knew
they died on page eight because of the nature of the book. It also
showed the long journey of Commander Sir Samuel Vimes, Duke of
Ankh-Morpork from his beginnings as the newly minted Lance-Constable Sam
Vimes, Night Watch. Terry showed us the results, from both sides, of the
old adage "If only I knew then what I know now..." There was another
pile of stuff in there, about the nature of cities and the polis, about
mobs and revolution and why sometimes it is necessary but most times it
is the wish of only a few.
>
>
>Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
>story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
>and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
>characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
>can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
>Weatherwax crutch.[**]
I didn't mean he had written in his regular characters, but I've met
Groat and Stanley several times in earlier books, for example. Dora
Belle (there's a typo somewhere since I clocked her name as Bell) is
Susan Sto Helit without the supernatural baggage. The coachmen are rough
diamonds like Piss Harry from "The Truth" etc. etc. A lot of this book
is retread, sad to say.
>
>[*] Except for Lord Vetinari, who is slowly coming to rival the
>above-mentioned characters as one of Pratchett's great creations.
>Slowly, because we've never had Vetinari as a viewpoint for more than
>a couple of pages. I suddenly consider the idea of a Vetinari book.
I think Terry finds Vetinari a very difficult character to write; I
know I would. Vetinari's always three pages ahead, or even worse, he's
read the last chapter while you're struggling with page 26. A time
machine would come in handy in this case.
Daniel Silevitch
> Here, Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I didn't find this book as deeply engrossing as, say, "Night Watch".
>> Technically it is, of course, well written. The one-liners do their
>> little dance when appropriate, raising smiles and the occasional laugh
>> but it fails to resonate and the "Oh yes." moments are fewer and further
>> between than previous, more trenchant books.
>
> "Not as engrossing as Night Watch" is leaves room for... just about
> all the other Discworld books. GP is still in the top end of the
> series, I say.
I'd put _Small Gods_ at or near the top, myself. _Going Postal_ was very
good, though.
> Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
> story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
> and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
> characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
> can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
> Weatherwax crutch.[**]
It's interesting that the two latest "adult" Discworld novels have both
been "standalones", though the Patrician and other Ankh-Morpork notables
have significant roles. Dunno if that signifies anything about the future
directions of the series, though.
A couple of random notes on the development of the Discworld: The
hospital that Vimes talked about setting up in _Night Watch_ is now up
and running. It's no longer the Century of the Fruitbat; we are now in
the bold new era of the Century of the Avacado.
-dms
Robert Sneddon
Silevitch <dms...@uchicago.edu> writes
>> "Not as engrossing as Night Watch" is leaves room for... just about
>> all the other Discworld books. GP is still in the top end of the
>> series, I say.
>
>I'd put _Small Gods_ at or near the top, myself. _Going Postal_ was very
>good, though.
I'd have _Small Gods_ up there too, along with, of all things,
_Hogfather_[1], _Mort_ of course and _Lords and Ladies_.
>
>A couple of random notes on the development of the Discworld: The
>hospital that Vimes talked about setting up in _Night Watch_ is now up
>and running. It's no longer the Century of the Fruitbat; we are now in
>the bold new era of the Century of the Avacado.
Things move on -- _The Truth_ introduced newspapers to Ankh-Morpork and
they play a minor role in succeeding books. The clacks appeared offstage
and suddenly they're a focus of _Going Postal_. There was the comment
Lord Vetenari mde to Commander Vimes about the largest dwarf city on the
Disc in _The Fifth Elephant_. The Discworld is not a stationary system,
with a Big Red reset button pressed between books.
[1] Why _Hogfather_? Well, I find the better Pratchetts often focus on
the nature of evil and how it can fester and grow in ways that many
people refuse to recognise. Behind the holly and the Hogswatch fun and
games there is is a nasty little story being played out in this book and
a lot of otherwise nice people are complicit in it.
Damien R. Sullivan
See Niven and Vinge on writing characters smarter than you are...
-xx- Damien X-)
Michael S. Schiffer
news:slrncm7tfc...@bardeen.uchicago.edu:
>...
> A couple of random notes on the development of the Discworld:
> The hospital that Vimes talked about setting up in _Night Watch_
> is now up and running. It's no longer the Century of the
> Fruitbat; we are now in the bold new era of the Century of the
> Avacado.
Wasn't it going to be the Century of the Rat at some point? (I know:
Time Monks. :-) And "Century of the Avocado" is funnier.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Christopher J. Henrich
<dasu...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
I'd like to. Any URLs or other references?
TIA
--
Chris Henrich
God just doesn't fit inside a single religion.
stePH
> In article <ck18h9$eae$1...@hood.uits.indiana.edu>, Damien R. Sullivan
> <dasu...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>See Niven and Vinge on writing characters smarter than you are...
>>
>
> I'd like to. Any URLs or other references?
I think the novel _Protector_ is the obvious example for Niven. I've
never read Vinge.
stePH
--
"A lion will exert himself to the utmost, even when entering the tiger's
den to throw baby rabbits off a cliff!" -- Moroboshi Ataru
Daniel Silevitch
> A couple of random notes on the development of the Discworld: The
> hospital that Vimes talked about setting up in _Night Watch_ is now up
> and running. It's no longer the Century of the Fruitbat; we are now in
> the bold new era of the Century of the Avacado.
Correcting myself: Century of the Anchovy, not the Avacado.
I doubt it makes much difference, unless I end up running for President
in a few decades, in which case I need to preempitvely defend myself from
charges of lying, flip-flopping, misreading the intelligence, etc.
-dms
Robert Sneddon
<neild-...@misago.org> writes
>Speaking of which, I just finished _Monstrous Regiment_, and felt it
>would have been much improved without the deus ex Vimes. (Or should
>that be Vimes ex machina?) It was painfully unnecessary;
Terry's mentioned before that sometimes characters try and weasel their
way into books. He ends up writing them in and they stick out, doing
nothing to advance the storyline and just getting in the way, so out
they come again. One example, if I remember correctly, was The Luggage
in _The Last Hero_, so he specifically inserted a scene where Rincewind
told the Luggage it was not accompanying him on his trip.
Terry Pratchett
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
> "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett, Doubleday, 352 pages, UKP 17.99
>
>
>
>
{Annerice MODE: ON} Ooh Bob, you are a one! {Annerice MODE: OFF}
:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Robert Sneddon
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>> 7 out of 10.
Sorry, Terry, but I didn't like it as much as some you've written (like
"Night Watch", frex). Some nice bits, but... Ah well. I'm looking
forward to "Thud".
Terry Pratchett
>In article <jh2hyIxn...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In message <gunVHZA1...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
>><no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett, Doubleday, 352 pages, UKP 17.99
>
>>> 7 out of 10.
>
>>{Annerice MODE: ON} Ooh Bob, you are a one! {Annerice MODE: OFF}
>
> Sorry, Terry, but I didn't like it as much as some you've written
>(like "Night Watch", frex). Some nice bits, but... Ah well. I'm looking
>forward to "Thud".
No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
though it's probably the grimmest DW book. FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want
to be written in that style...
--
Terry Pratchett
Taki Kogoma
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> allegedly declared to rec.arts.sf.written...
>No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
>though it's probably the grimmest DW book. FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want
>to be written in that style...
Speaking of upcomming volumes, what's up with the _Once More, With
Footnotes_ collection? L-Space says it was due in Sep '04, but I
can't find any trace of it.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.
Andrew Plotkin
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:36:42 +0100, Terry Pratchett
> <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> allegedly declared to rec.arts.sf.written...
> >No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
> >though it's probably the grimmest DW book. FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want
> >to be written in that style...
>
> Speaking of upcomming volumes, what's up with the _Once More, With
> Footnotes_ collection? L-Space says it was due in Sep '04, but I
> can't find any trace of it.
It was out for Worldcon -- I saw copies.
<http://www.nesfa.org/press/Books/Pratchett.html>
Mike Schilling
"Andrew Plotkin" <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message
news:cjvqp4$crs$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> Here, Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
> story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
> and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
> characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
> can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
> Weatherwax crutch.[**]
Granny and Nanny Ogg could well have been left out of _The Wee Free Men_.
> [**] Rincewind doesn't count as a crutch because he can't hold up a
> story.
Though you could use the Luggage as a crutch.
Andrew Plotkin
>
> "Andrew Plotkin" <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message
> news:cjvqp4$crs$1...@reader2.panix.com...
> > Here, Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Pratchett is doing his thing of knotting together several recognizable
> > story tropes in ways you don't expect. He's got drama and true love
> > and a lot of resonance with real life. He's *not* relying on his stock
> > characters[*] this time, and I'm always happy to rediscover that he
> > can do a good story without a Vimes / Death / Carrot / Granny
> > Weatherwax crutch.[**]
>
> Granny and Nanny Ogg could well have been left out of _The Wee Free Men_.
And Vimes could have been left out of _Monstrous Regiment_. But
in neither case were those characters holding up the story. They have
walk-ons to look at the protagonists.
(I liked Granny in _WFM_, and wished Vimes had been left out of _MR_.
But this is separate from my point.)
Robert Sneddon
Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>
>Granny and Nanny Ogg could well have been left out of _The Wee Free Men_.
I thought so too, but it was a setup, for the following book "A Hat
Full of Sky" where Tiffany interacts a great deal with Granny and Nanny.
Robert Sneddon
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>>(like "Night Watch", frex). Some nice bits, but... Ah well. I'm
>>looking forward to "Thud".
>
>No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
>though it's probably the grimmest DW book.
Sam Vimes has been through some bad times, but watching himself start
to make all the mistakes he knew were coming must have been the hardest
bit. That couple of lines where a matchmaking young Sam tries to invite
Sergeant at Arms Keel along to meet his widowed mother, for example,
really sticks in my mind. Another book with some funnies (Wilson, Kepple
and Betty deary deary me...) but a dark underbelly is "Jingo". That
seems to be the sort of book you write that I most enjoy, and reread the
most. The others I'll pick up again for a particular chapter or two.
Oh yes, my landlord likes the bit about the Employee of the Month
scheme in "Going Postal".
> FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want to be written in that style...
Hmmm. Assuming the book's title survives the Process, it'll move into
first equal place as shortest title of a Discworld book (assuming you
don't add three exclamation marks).
Terry Pratchett
Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>> Weatherwax crutch.[**]
>
>Granny and Nanny Ogg could well have been left out of _The Wee Free Men_.
No, for a couple of reasons which summarise as: the story continues.
--
Terry Pratchett
Mike Schilling
"Terry Pratchett" <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MkO6zi6G...@unseen.demon.co.uk...
I suppose I'll have to read the next one then, to see what you mean. Drat!
:-)
--
We've got a cheap lawyer, and we're nae afraid to use him!
Damien R. Sullivan
>and Betty deary deary me...) but a dark underbelly is "Jingo". That
>seems to be the sort of book you write that I most enjoy, and reread the
>most. The others I'll pick up again for a particular chapter or two.
Yeah, Jingo and NW might be my favorites, at least currently, not that I'd let
myself get pinned down. Almost everything is re-readable at will. (I don't
have Eric or Light Fantastic or most of the non-Discworlds.) I like Carpet
People a lot too, partly for the Dumii, partly because of sympathy with the
short early work. Of course, I like Bromeliad too (hard SF!) Shit, this
whole "favorites" sucks...
>> FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want to be written in that style...
Do we know what that's about? My first association is Poul Anderson's "Thud
and Blunder". Second is trolls.
-xx- Damien X-)
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <XubYHaEN...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
><no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <jh2hyIxn...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
>><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In message <gunVHZA1...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
>>><no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>> "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett, Doubleday, 352 pages, UKP 17.99
>>
>>>> 7 out of 10.
>>
>>>{Annerice MODE: ON} Ooh Bob, you are a one! {Annerice MODE: OFF}
>>
>> Sorry, Terry, but I didn't like it as much as some you've written
>>(like "Night Watch", frex). Some nice bits, but... Ah well. I'm looking
>>forward to "Thud".
>
>No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
>though it's probably the grimmest DW book. FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want
>to be written in that style...
I think I'd vote for "The Fifth Elephant" as the best so far.
If I could ask you a question - in "The Monstrous Regiment", I
understand that Vimes engineers, in order to achieve a desired political
end, a POW revolt that seizes a key fortification, presumably at the
cost of casualties on the part of the garrison. It seems to me that this
counts as betraying his men/allies. This is the sort of thing I could
imagine Lord Vetinari doing, but it seems out of character for Vimes.
How is it to be reconciled with his sense of morality?
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Gary R. Schmidt
[SNIP]
>
> If I could ask you a question - in "The Monstrous Regiment", I
> understand that Vimes engineers, in order to achieve a desired political
> end, a POW revolt that seizes a key fortification, presumably at the
> cost of casualties on the part of the garrison. It seems to me that this
> counts as betraying his men/allies. This is the sort of thing I could
> imagine Lord Vetinari doing, but it seems out of character for Vimes.
> How is it to be reconciled with his sense of morality?
he was <rot13> dhvgr pncnoyr bs pbzzvgvat zheqre </rot13>, so in my
view, at least, his morality can quite easily compass his actions in
"The Monstrous Regiment".
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries
Terry Pratchett
<grsc...@acm.org> writes
>Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
>[SNIP]
Maybe it's best to deal with these together.
>> If I could ask you a question - in "The Monstrous Regiment", I
>> understand that Vimes engineers, in order to achieve a desired political
>> end, a POW revolt that seizes a key fortification, presumably at the
>> cost of casualties on the part of the garrison. It seems to me that this
>> counts as betraying his men/allies. This is the sort of thing I could
>> imagine Lord Vetinari doing, but it seems out of character for Vimes.
>> How is it to be reconciled with his sense of morality?
He doesn't engineer anything. He assists the 'squad' in a few minor
ways in the hope that they can budge things, but I imagine what they
achieved exceeded all expectations. Yes, there are certainly losses in
bringing the war to a truce -- a fraction of those who'd die if it
dragged on into the coming winter
>Just to pre-empt Terry - In "The Fifth Elephant" Sam Vimes showed that
>he was <rot13> dhvgr pncnoyr bs pbzzvgvat zheqre </rot13>, so in my
>view, at least, his morality can quite easily compass his actions in
>"The Monstrous Regiment".
HMI, let's see:
xvyyvat onaqvgf ba gur ebnq. hardly murder .
xvyyvat, zbfgyl jvgu uvf oner unaqf, n ohapu bs jrerjbyirf nsgre uvf
oybbq : sheer self defence,
Xvyyvat n jrerjbys jub unq whfg zheqrerq fbzrobql, xvyyf uhznaf sbe
fcbeg, unf gjvpr ershfrq gb fheeraqre naq vf n pyrne, vzzrqvngr qnatre
gb Ivzrf naq bguref nebhaq uvz, va n pbhagel jubfr sbeprf bs ynj ner ng
orfg jrnx: housekeeping.
--
Terry Pratchett
Liz Broadwell
>"Andrew Plotkin" <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message
>news:cjvqp4$crs$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>> story.
>
>Though you could use the Luggage as a crutch.
Upend the Luggage and stick it under *my* armpit? No, thank you!
Peace,
Liz
--
Liz Broadwell (username-in-header at orphco dot org), Charter Orphan
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
"[W]hatever it is, it sounds pretty impressive to me."
"That's because you've never read Homer in the original Greek."
-- Patricia C. Wrede, _Mairelon the Magician_
Daniel Silevitch
>
> "Andrew Plotkin" <erky...@eblong.com> wrote in message
> news:cjvqp4$crs$1...@reader2.panix.com...
>
>> story.
>
> Though you could use the Luggage as a crutch.
I think you mean "after using the Luggage, you will need a crutch".
-dms
Mike Schilling
> Xvyyvat n jrerjbys jub unq whfg zheqrerq fbzrobql, xvyyf uhznaf sbe fcbeg,
> unf gjvpr ershfrq gb fheeraqre naq vf n pyrne, vzzrqvngr qnatre gb Ivzrf
> naq bguref nebhaq uvz, va n pbhagel jubfr sbeprf bs ynj ner ng orfg jrnx:
> housekeeping.
You and I might agree that it was simply houskeeping: Vimes himself was less
sure. Which is a good thing.
Steve Moss
snip T.P. discussions as to darkest books (I like both the dark and
the lighter novels, diversity being a good thing)
> If I could ask you a question - in "The Monstrous Regiment", I
> understand that Vimes engineers, in order to achieve a desired political
> end, a POW revolt that seizes a key fortification, presumably at the
> cost of casualties on the part of the garrison. It seems to me that this
> counts as betraying his men/allies. This is the sort of thing I could
> imagine Lord Vetinari doing, but it seems out of character for Vimes.
> How is it to be reconciled with his sense of morality?
Morality? Vimes is a cop! By definition his morality is somewhat
flexible. Look at his cop employees. They are all somewhat corrupt,
excepting Carrot.
Btw, I mean corrupt in a "I'll take that jelly donut and bottle of
beer" kind of way, not in a "kill the suspect and drop a gun next to
his hand" kind of way. Power corrupts all, even Vimes. Its a
testament to thier general good nature that their limited to minor
corruption, not the bigger and nastier stuff.
Having said all that, and keeping in mind that my memory is dim on the
issue, I think the POW revolt resulted in the garrison retreating.
After all, they knew it was coming. So it wasn't treason/betrayal.
It was a strategic retreat.
Steve Moss
Mike Schilling
"Steve Moss" <ste...@uneedspeed.net> wrote in message
news:93f95679.04101...@posting.google.com...
> Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<2ZkRwDAs...@meden.demon.co.uk>...
>
> snip T.P. discussions as to darkest books (I like both the dark and
> the lighter novels, diversity being a good thing)
>
>> If I could ask you a question - in "The Monstrous Regiment", I
>> understand that Vimes engineers, in order to achieve a desired political
>> end, a POW revolt that seizes a key fortification, presumably at the
>> cost of casualties on the part of the garrison. It seems to me that this
>> counts as betraying his men/allies. This is the sort of thing I could
>> imagine Lord Vetinari doing, but it seems out of character for Vimes.
>> How is it to be reconciled with his sense of morality?
>
> Morality? Vimes is a cop! By definition his morality is somewhat
> flexible. Look at his cop employees. They are all somewhat corrupt,
> excepting Carrot.
Are they? Carrot is (on the surface, at least) the most honest living
human, with Colon and Nobby are at the opposite end of the scale. But I
can't recall any specific corrupt acts from Angua, Cheery, Dorfl, Visit, Reg
Shoe, etc. Detritus isn't corrupt ether, though he can be a bit of a
vigilante.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <jh2hyIxn...@unseen.demon.co.uk>, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In message <gunVHZA1...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk>, Robert Sneddon
>><no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> "Going Postal" by Terry Pratchett, Doubleday, 352 pages, UKP 17.99
>
>>> 7 out of 10.
>
>>{Annerice MODE: ON} Ooh Bob, you are a one! {Annerice MODE: OFF}
>
> Sorry, Terry, but I didn't like it as much as some you've written (like
>"Night Watch", frex). Some nice bits, but... Ah well. I'm looking
>forward to "Thud".
Huh. I thought GOING POSTAL was one of the Really Good Ones. (I just
read it yesterday.)
stre...@rohan.sdsu.edu
[snip]
> Huh. I thought GOING POSTAL was one of the Really Good Ones. (I just
> read it yesterday.)
<aol/>
(About it being one of the Really Good Ones, not the bit about reading
it yesterday. I read it last week. Once on saturday, and once on sunday.)
Of course, I have a couple of shelves of Discworld books that are all
"one of the Really Good Ones"... and I'm running out of room....
--
Stewart Stremler stremler @ rohan . sdsu . edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A coding theorist is someone who doesn't think Alice is crazy.
-- John Gordon (1984) http://www.conceptlabs.co.uk/alicebob.html
Robert Sneddon
<m.blundenatn...@address.invalid> writes
>
>Going from the current novel, there are... hints... that it will be Dwarves
>and Trolls.
The board game mentioned in "Going Postal" is called Thud. It's got a
real-world version that's been around for a couple of years, played on
an octagonal board. One side plays the trolls, slow, few but powerful
and the other side plays the Dwarves, faster, more numerous but not as
strong. The object (IIRC) is to capture the Thud stone in the middle of
the board.
http://www.thudgame.com/ for details and a short piece by Terry on how
the game came about. you can also buy a Thud set from this site.
Damien Neil
<erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
> Here, Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Granny and Nanny Ogg could well have been left out of _The Wee Free Men_.
>
> And Vimes could have been left out of _Monstrous Regiment_. But
> in neither case were those characters holding up the story. They have
> walk-ons to look at the protagonists.
Vimes is holding up the story (or at least tracking mud all over it) in
_MR_, alas. The heroes spend most of the book under his covert
observation, receive assistance from him, and eventually win their
war[1] by being moved into a position from which Vimes can use them for
leverage.
He's too much of a power behind the throne (or latrine, as the case may
be), and it undercuts the story.
- Damien
[1] For my definition of "win", at least--the generals might disagree.
Louann Miller
<grsc...@acm.org> wrote:
re Vimes, "Fifth Elephant," killing sentients,'
>In my Corgi papperbok, page 429, the final two paragraphs read:
>"Gurer jrer n ybg bs guvatf ur pbhyq fnl. 'Fba bs n ovgpu!' jbhyq unir
>orra n tbbq bar. Be ur pbhyq fnl, 'Jrypbzr gb pvivyvmngvba!' Ur pbhyq
>unir fnvq, 'Srgpu!'
>
>Ohg ur qvqa'g, orpnhfr vs ur unq fnvq nal bs gubfr guvatf gura ur'q unir
>xabja gung jung ur unq whfg qbar jnf zheqre."
>
>When I first read it, and on reading it again, it feels like doublethink
>to me. (The _good_ kind of doublethink, that allows people in Vimes'
>sort of job to maintain their sanity.)
Or, to use a lovely new phrase we now have, it's about not being a
hammer.
Louann, who _nearly_ avoided making puns based on "don't be such a
tool." But not quite, obviously.
Harry Erwin
> Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >http://www.thudgame.com/ for details and a short piece by Terry on how
> >the game came about. you can also buy a Thud set from this site.
>
> 45 pounds for cheapest set + game board? Ack. Boxed games here tend to 35
> *dollars*.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
Welcome to UK prices. Fuel costs 80 pence a liter ($0.65 per _quart_),
almost all tax, and the price of everything else is proportional.
--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin>
My neuroscience wikiwiki is at
<http://scat-he-g4.sunderland.ac.uk/~harryerw/phpwiki/index.php>
Louann Miller
wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:36:42 +0100, Terry Pratchett
><tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> allegedly declared to rec.arts.sf.written...
>>No problem. Good grief. But Night Watch did seem to hit the spot, even
>>though it's probably the grimmest DW book. FWIW, 'Thud' seems to want
>>to be written in that style...
>
>Speaking of upcomming volumes, what's up with the _Once More, With
>Footnotes_ collection? L-Space says it was due in Sep '04, but I
>can't find any trace of it.
That was the NESFA book for Worldcon. AFAIK you pretty much had to be
there as the print run was small.
Louann, who wasn't but who gave a heads-up to a friend who was.
Cal Macewan
> Damien R. Sullivan <dasu...@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.thudgame.com/ for details and a short piece by Terry on how
>>>the game came about. you can also buy a Thud set from this site.
>>
>>45 pounds for cheapest set + game board? Ack. Boxed games here tend to 35
>>*dollars*.
>>
>>-xx- Damien X-)
>
>
> Welcome to UK prices. Fuel costs 80 pence a liter ($0.65 per _quart_),
> almost all tax, and the price of everything else is proportional.
The prices at that site seem to be for some kind of rare collector
editions. The price for a standard set from somewhere like
www.leisuregames.com is UKP 29.99
--
Cal
Craig Richardson
(Damien R. Sullivan) wrote:
>calma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>>The prices at that site seem to be for some kind of rare collector
>>editions. The price for a standard set from somewhere like
>>www.leisuregames.com is UKP 29.99
>
>The 4th option at thudgame costs 30 pounds, but didn't seem to include the
>board, which was another 15 pounds. Thus my 45.
>
>Oh, but I was wrong. The 15 is for a semi-fancy leather board; the gaming set
>does come with a cardboard board. So, 30 pounds.
>
>*Still* pretty pricey for an American, but within a factor of 2.
Hmm. Advanced Squad Leader costs $80 for the basic rules, which is
pretty close to the inflation-adjusted cost from when it was first
introduced in 1985. Good news, however - the final "core" module has
finally been released. Twenty years, ten core modules, roughly a
thousand dollars.
--Craig
--
The pig-cheek ham on sourdough toast was an exercise in competitive
chewing for little reward except the satisfaction of knowing you’d done
it and that your stool would be a thing of rough beauty.
-- AA Gill review of St. John Bread & Wine, 2003
raymond larsson
says...
> (Taki Kogoma)wrote:
> >Speaking of upcomming volumes, what's up with the _Once More, With
> >Footnotes_ collection? L-Space says it was due in Sep '04, but I
> >can't find any trace of it.
>
> That was the NESFA book for Worldcon. AFAIK you pretty much had to be
> there as the print run was small.
Whether by admirable self control by the attendees, over-printing, or
rigorously enforced rationing there *were* hardcovers left for the
general public to buy. Check with NESFA for availability.
K.Schwarz
Yeah, no kidding. I really boggled at that post -- is Terry Pratchett
subcontracting his Usenet posting to Steve Stirling? Or does he just
use a more humane and moral module for writing books? I mean, based
on that description (I haven't read the book yet, but now I want to;
Fifth Elephant, right?) I can easily agree that Vimes killing this guy
was probably necessary, and doesn't make him a bad person. But
reclassifying a sentient person as "dirt", so you can "clean" them
away without even mentioning death, let alone human rights?? What
would Granny say?
Jens Kilian
> Yeah, no kidding. I really boggled at that post -- is Terry Pratchett
> subcontracting his Usenet posting to Steve Stirling? Or does he just
> use a more humane and moral module for writing books? I mean, based
> on that description (I haven't read the book yet, but now I want to;
> Fifth Elephant, right?) I can easily agree that Vimes killing this guy
> was probably necessary, and doesn't make him a bad person. But
> reclassifying a sentient person as "dirt", so you can "clean" them
> away without even mentioning death, let alone human rights?? What
> would Granny say?
Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person. He is a career policeman; and
policemen have the unfortunate tendency to pick up bad habits from their
"customers". Vimes' redeeming quality is that he knows how evil he could be
if he allowed himself to, and that he *doesn't* allow that.
I find it entirely in character for him to *think* of a criminal as being
subhuman, even if he would never, ever allow himself to act on that thought.
Granny confronting Vimes - I think I'd rather not be on the same continent
when that happens. On second thought, not on the same world.
Bye,
Jens.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Mike Schilling
"Jens Kilian" <j...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:874qkpp...@gondolin.bb.bawue.de...
> k...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU (K.Schwarz) writes:
>> Yeah, no kidding. I really boggled at that post -- is Terry Pratchett
>> subcontracting his Usenet posting to Steve Stirling? Or does he just
>> use a more humane and moral module for writing books? I mean, based
>> on that description (I haven't read the book yet, but now I want to;
>> Fifth Elephant, right?) I can easily agree that Vimes killing this guy
>> was probably necessary, and doesn't make him a bad person. But
>> reclassifying a sentient person as "dirt", so you can "clean" them
>> away without even mentioning death, let alone human rights?? What
>> would Granny say?
>
> Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person. He is a career policeman; and
> policemen have the unfortunate tendency to pick up bad habits from their
> "customers". Vimes' redeeming quality is that he knows how evil he could
> be
> if he allowed himself to, and that he *doesn't* allow that.
>
> I find it entirely in character for him to *think* of a criminal as being
> subhuman, even if he would never, ever allow himself to act on that
> thought.
He thinks the aristocracy in general are subhuman, with one (or perhaps two)
obvious exception(s).
Robert Sneddon
<j...@acm.org> writes
>Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person. He is a career policeman; and
>policemen have the unfortunate tendency to pick up bad habits from their
>"customers". Vimes' redeeming quality is that he knows how evil he could be
>if he allowed himself to, and that he *doesn't* allow that.
The worst crime a policeman knows of is Breach of the Peace. Virtually
every crime can be construed as a Breach of the Peace when you boil it
down -- noisy neighbours, murder, war etc. Cops like things to be
peaceful because it's less work for them. Wolfgang was breaching the
peace and there was no way to make him stop given the circumstances.
>Granny confronting Vimes - I think I'd rather not be on the same continent
>when that happens. On second thought, not on the same world.
The MAD scenario is Granny versus the Patrician.
Jeffrey Kaplan
; Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person. He is a career policeman; and
The two are not mutually exclusive and I personally resent the unsubtle
implication. My mother was a career cop I defy you to find a better
person, in or out of a police uniform.
I don't know what your experience with the police has been in the past,
but you must not let the actions of the few who make the headlines for
abuses of some sort or other cloud your judgment of the vast majority
who ARE good people, and don't make the headlines precisely because
they are good people.
; policemen have the unfortunate tendency to pick up bad habits from their
; "customers".
Policemen sometimes have the unfortunate requirement to emulate some of
their "customers" behaviors in order to do the job, and to stay alive.
; Vimes' redeeming quality is that he knows how evil he could be
; if he allowed himself to, and that he *doesn't* allow that.
In my book, that puts him, in D&D terms, neutral good, because he is a
good person who will do what is necessary to get the job done, but
prefers to stay on the lawful side of operations. By contrast, Carrot
is extreme Lawful Good, and Detritus is chaotic good.
; Granny confronting Vimes - I think I'd rather not be on the same continent
; when that happens. On second thought, not on the same world.
They have the same attitudes, even if they wouldn't realize it
themselves, but with different ways of operation formed by their
different sets of tools.
--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol
"The powers in charge keep us in a perpetual state of fear keep us in a
continuous stampede of patriotic fervor with the cry of grave national
emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if
we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums
demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have
happened, seem never to have been quite real." - General Douglas
MacArthur
Mark Atwood
>
> I don't know what your experience with the police has been in the past,
> but you must not let the actions of the few who make the headlines
That may be, but the "many" constantly and continuously close ranks
in that "blue wall" around those "few".
So long as they continue to do that, and still yet refuse to clean
house, those "many" share the same guilt and deserve the same
condemnation as those "few".
--
Mark Atwood | When you do things right, people won't be sure
m...@pobox.com | you've done anything at all.
http://www.pobox.com/~mra | http://www.livejournal.com/users/fallenpegasus
Terry Pratchett
<j...@acm.org> writes
>Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person.
>
Vimes is fundamentally a person. He fears he may be a bad person
because he knows what he thinks rather than just what he says and does.
He chokes off those little reactions and impulses, but he knows what
they are. So he tries to act like a good person, often in situations
where the map is unclear.
--
Terry Pratchett
Jeffrey Kaplan
; Jeffrey Kaplan <ra...@gordol.org> writes:
; >
; > I don't know what your experience with the police has been in the past,
; > but you must not let the actions of the few who make the headlines
;
; That may be, but the "many" constantly and continuously close ranks
; in that "blue wall" around those "few".
Again, it's not everyone, and yes, those who do close ranks around the
bad few do share the guilt.
; So long as they continue to do that, and still yet refuse to clean
; house, those "many" share the same guilt and deserve the same
; condemnation as those "few".
Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol
"He was democratically elected. He won a majority of votes. Legitimacy
is something that is conferred not just by a majority of votes,
however." - Senior White House official (re: Venezuelan Pres. Chavez),
4/15/02
Mark Atwood
> Begin Mark Atwood quote:
>
> ; Jeffrey Kaplan <ra...@gordol.org> writes:
> ; >
> ; > I don't know what your experience with the police has been in the past,
> ; > but you must not let the actions of the few who make the headlines
> ;
> ; That may be, but the "many" constantly and continuously close ranks
> ; in that "blue wall" around those "few".
>
> Again, it's not everyone, and yes, those who do close ranks around the
> bad few do share the guilt.
And the ones who dont call out those who are doing so, also share in it.
> ; So long as they continue to do that, and still yet refuse to clean
> ; house, those "many" share the same guilt and deserve the same
> ; condemnation as those "few".
>
> Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
And how does the average cop feel about Internal Affairs?
Mike Schilling
"Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:m2u0sns...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com...
> Jeffrey Kaplan <ra...@gordol.org> writes:
>>
>> Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
>
> And how does the average cop feel about Internal Affairs?
How does the average programmer feel about QA? The good ones like it, the
tougher the better, but the mediocre ones resent it bitterly.
Jeffrey Kaplan
; > ; So long as they continue to do that, and still yet refuse to clean
; > ; house, those "many" share the same guilt and deserve the same
; > ; condemnation as those "few".
; >
; > Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
;
; And how does the average cop feel about Internal Affairs?
Hates them, usually. For roughly the same reason why you don't seem to
like the regular police.
--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol
"He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes, will
never be wiser on the morrow than he is today." - Tyron Edwards
Mark Atwood
> "Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>>
>
> How does the average programmer feel about QA? The good ones like it, the
> tougher the better, but the mediocre ones resent it bitterly.
I consider it a point of personal and professional pride to almost
never have anything I write get caught in QA.
I consider it a source of professional pleasure to find bugs in other
people's code faster than QA can, via idle static eyeball code
inspection. Especially if I can look at it, construct the "how to
duplicate" in my head, file the bug in the tracking system, and have
it turn into a full day "oh shit, where did *that* P2 come from" over
in QA.
Somehow I doubt that doing something similar as a cop would yield
a long and happy life.
Robert Sneddon
<m...@pobox.com> writes
>Jeffrey Kaplan <ra...@gordol.org> writes:
>> Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
>
>And how does the average cop feel about Internal Affairs?
Diverging off here, but does anyone think there could be a good TV cop
series based around Internal Affairs? I envisage something like a cop
discovering corruption in his department, going it alone to solve it and
after he does he finds himself shunned by regular cops because of the
Blue Wall so he neds up joining IA...
Mike Schilling
"Robert Sneddon" <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Qoi5WUG7...@nojay.fsnet.co.uk...
> In article <m2u0sns...@amsu.fallenpegasus.com>, Mark Atwood
> <m...@pobox.com> writes
>>Jeffrey Kaplan <ra...@gordol.org> writes:
>
>>> Ever hear of Internal Affairs?
>>
>>And how does the average cop feel about Internal Affairs?
>
> Diverging off here, but does anyone think there could be a good TV cop
> series based around Internal Affairs? I envisage something like a cop
> discovering corruption in his department, going it alone to solve it and
> after he does he finds himself shunned by regular cops because of the Blue
> Wall so he neds up joining IA...
There was a terrific show called "EZ Streets", one of whose main plot lines
was similar to this. Only lasted about five episodes, though.
Damien R. Sullivan
>"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> "Mark Atwood" <m...@pobox.com> wrote in message
>> How does the average programmer feel about QA? The good ones like it, the
>> tougher the better, but the mediocre ones resent it bitterly.
>
>I consider it a point of personal and professional pride to almost
>never have anything I write get caught in QA.
Yeah. Don't think my team ever got to "no bugs period" but we had low number.
Say, 6 for 3000 or 6000 lines of code. That's for release to QA, while Wiki
says 0.5/1000 is standard for commerical release from QA. Okay, that doesn't
make me feel that good. But we were releasing every 6 weeks and were down to
a couple years experience per core programmer.
What I did get to be proud of was fast bug-fixing. Find bug, report bug, fix
bug. I figured if you had enough or long-lived enough bugs to need a tracking
system something was wrong. The 24-48 hour response cycle of the MySQL team
was inspiring.
Hates bugs, hates them I do. Live or cyber.
>Somehow I doubt that doing something similar as a cop would yield
>a long and happy life.
The response of prosecutors to learning of bugs in their system, such as
convicts who DNA evidence and later confessions from real culprits say aren't
guilty of the crime for which they were convicted, is not inspiring.
-xx- Damien X-)
Jens Kilian
> ; Vimes is not, fundamentally, a good person. He is a career policeman; and
>
> The two are not mutually exclusive and I personally resent the unsubtle
> implication. My mother was a career cop I defy you to find a better
> person, in or out of a police uniform.
I'm sorry for being ambiguous. I did NOT want to imply a causal connection
between being a police officer and not being a good person; I intended to
comment just on Vimes, specifically.
> I don't know what your experience with the police has been in the past,
I have never had any experience with the police, but I have the highest
respect for them. (In Germany, they have a MUCH better reputation than in
the US; except for recent unpleasantnesses in a few large cities, they are
still "friends and helpers" to the majority of the population.)
> ; policemen have the unfortunate tendency to pick up bad habits from their
> ; "customers".
That was also much too general. Consider me chastised.