Looking for "Life Without DNA" Stories
Evelyn Leeper
Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
life were possible, and this topic came up.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
To bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance.
--George Washington
art...@yahoo.com
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
Exhalation by Ted Chiang might qualify
Mike Schilling
"Evelyn Leeper" <ele...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4c6e894d$0$31283$607e...@cv.net...
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of life
> were possible, and this topic came up.
Robert Forward's _Dragon's Egg_ is a classic here.
Robert Carnegie
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
There's a Draco Tavern story where long-lived aliens reminisce about
their long-lost earth friends, but I think that was only a
civilisation of anaerobes.
There's a Clarke short, "Before Eden" I think, where the first life on
Venus(?) meets the earth astronauts' trash dump, and loses.
I think John Byrne's(?) version of the "Doom Patrol" comic featured an
adventure with non-DNA life in a sealed-under-Antarctic-ice lake. It
didn't survive contact, either. By the way, I think the more recent
thinking is that those lakes aren't sealed after all - rivers flow,
deep under the ice, so the large bodies of water aren't isolated after
all and liable to hold the /really/ strange life that otherwise might
be down there.
The idea of an "RNA World" of life using RNA genetic code (which our
bodies use as temporary storage, so to speak) is not firm enough to be
a scientific orthodoxy of what there was before there was DNA, but is
attractive, particularly as RNA apparently grows duplicates of itself
alongside: like if you put one spaghetti letter T shape into a bowl of
blended pasta stuff and stir and it turns into a bowl of letter T
shapes. Uh... maybe you'd better ask someone else about this
(Wikipedia?)
By the way, ignore Larry Niven's idea about injecting all the RNA from
someone's body into a new one for their mind - or a version of it - to
live in. RNA is important, and wonderful, but not /that/ important
and wonderful. :-)
Do they ever figure out what _Solaris_ is?
James Nicoll
Evelyn Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Like it says...
>
>Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
>life were possible, and this topic came up.
>
maybe?) is set on a world with non-DNA life.
--
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http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <4c6e894d$0$31283$607e...@cv.net>,
> Evelyn Leeper <ele...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Like it says...
>>
>> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
>> life were possible, and this topic came up.
>>
> One of the later books in Brian Stableford's emmortality series (ARARAT,
> maybe?) is set on a world with non-DNA life.
>
I'd also point out that most AIs are non-DNA and would be life by many
standards if they're capable of reproducing without human help. (OBsf,
the short story about discovering Earth: "They're made of meat! Talking
meat! THINKING meat!")
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
art...@yahoo.com
>
> By the way, ignore Larry Niven's idea about injecting all the RNA from
> someone's body into a new one for their mind - or a version of it - to
> live in. RNA is important, and wonderful, but not /that/ important
> and wonderful. :-)
There was a famous set of experiments in which some planarians were
trained to go one way in a maze to get food. RNA from trained
planarians was then fed to untrained ones and they learned faster than
the original planarians. However, there were problems with these
experiments. For example, the mazes were not cleaned properly and so
planarians may have followed the path of previous planarians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_RNA
This article mentions the Niven story and several other related SF
stories.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<ele...@optonline.net> writes
>Like it says...
>
>Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
>life were possible, and this topic came up.
>
Poul Anderson's machine life in ?Epilogue.
Niven's Bandersnatchi.
For most alien life in fiction the nature of the genetic material is
left unstated, so for all we know it's non-DNA life.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
>
Baxter's Vacuum Diagrams has some very nice examples.
Greg Egan's Schilds Ladder has a whole _huge_ non-DNA ecology.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Dan Goodman
> On Aug 20, 2:55 pm, Evelyn Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > Like it says...
> >
> > Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts
> > of life were possible, and this topic came up.
>
> There's a Draco Tavern story where long-lived aliens reminisce about
> their long-lost earth friends, but I think that was only a
> civilisation of anaerobes.
"The Green Marauder."
> There's a Clarke short, "Before Eden" I think, where the first life
> on Venus(?) meets the earth astronauts' trash dump, and loses.
>
> I think John Byrne's(?) version of the "Doom Patrol" comic featured
> an adventure with non-DNA life in a sealed-under-Antarctic-ice
> lake. It didn't survive contact, either. By the way, I think the
> more recent thinking is that those lakes aren't sealed after all -
> rivers flow, deep under the ice, so the large bodies of water
> aren't isolated after all and liable to hold the really strange
> life that otherwise might be down there.
>
> The idea of an "RNA World" of life using RNA genetic code (which our
> bodies use as temporary storage, so to speak) is not firm enough to
> be a scientific orthodoxy of what there was before there was DNA,
> but is attractive, particularly as RNA apparently grows duplicates
> of itself alongside: like if you put one spaghetti letter T shape
> into a bowl of blended pasta stuff and stir and it turns into a
> bowl of letter T shapes. Uh... maybe you'd better ask someone else
> about this (Wikipedia?)
>
> By the way, ignore Larry Niven's idea about injecting all the RNA
> from someone's body into a new one for their mind - or a version of
> it - to live in. RNA is important, and wonderful, but not that
> important and wonderful. :-)
There was a time when experimental evidence showed that RNA carried
memories. And before "oops, that's not what the results really
showed," Saberhagen (_The Water of Thought_) and Niven used the idea.
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)
David Cowie
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
In STARFISH by Peter Watts a *different* form of life is discovered in
the deep ocean, but I don't know if it has DNA or not. The sequel
BEHEMOTH deals with what happens when it gets onto land.
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 59307:01
Lynn McGuire
How about "Contact with Chaos" by Michael Williamson ?
http://www.amazon.com/Contact-Chaos-Michael-Z-Williamson/dp/1439133735/
Or is that just life without metals ? I have this book on my
nightstand waiting to be read about 90 books down.
Lynn
David DeLaney
>particularly as RNA apparently grows duplicates of itself
>alongside: like if you put one spaghetti letter T shape into a bowl of
>blended pasta stuff and stir and it turns into a bowl of letter T
>shapes. Uh... maybe you'd better ask someone else about this
>(Wikipedia?)
Well, you do know that if you mix spaghetti and Cthulhu you get Pastafarianism,
right? This might be something similar.
I hate to, but I have to mention Forward's _Code of the Lifemaker_ and
_Entoverse_ here as well. I guess a lot of AI stories fall under "non-RNA
life", come to think of it...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>Niven's Bandersnatchi.
The Bandersnatchi had DNA and genes. They were just really really large,
and thus protected against accidental cosmic-ray mutation and the like.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>> particularly as RNA apparently grows duplicates of itself
>> alongside: like if you put one spaghetti letter T shape into a bowl of
>> blended pasta stuff and stir and it turns into a bowl of letter T
>> shapes. Uh... maybe you'd better ask someone else about this
>> (Wikipedia?)
>
> Well, you do know that if you mix spaghetti and Cthulhu you get Pastafarianism,
> right? This might be something similar.
>
> I hate to, but I have to mention Forward's _Code of the Lifemaker_ and
> _Entoverse_ here as well. I guess a lot of AI stories fall under "non-RNA
> life", come to think of it...
I will now smack you with a wet herring for confusing Robert L. Forward
with James P. Hogan.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Scott Fluhrer
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i4m5fu$svu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Hmmm, as I recall, the Cheela had the equivilent of DNA. Forward mentioned
that the DNA-equivilent had three 'strands', rather than two, and that
during copying, the copying mechanism would do attempt error correction (if
two of the three bases agreed, take that, if all three disagreed, then error
out by destroying the DNA, and presumably kill the cell that was trying to
reproduce). It's not clear if Forward did this because he expected that his
'nuclear' compounds would be subject to more errors than our
electro-chemical-based DNAs (and thus require more careful copying to keep
the mutation rate at an acceptable level), or if he just thought his
alternative 3-strand method was a neat idea...
--
poncho
Michael Stemper
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>particularly as RNA apparently grows duplicates of itself
>>alongside: like if you put one spaghetti letter T shape into a bowl of
>>blended pasta stuff and stir and it turns into a bowl of letter T
>>shapes. Uh... maybe you'd better ask someone else about this
>>(Wikipedia?)
>
>Well, you do know that if you mix spaghetti and Cthulhu you get Pastafarianism,
>right? This might be something similar.
Earlier this week, _User Friendly_ showed Cthulu getting jealous of FSM.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
If this is our corporate opinion, you will be billed for it.
Michael Stemper
>Like it says...
>
>Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
>life were possible, and this topic came up.
I believe that the creatures depicted in Spinrad's "A Child of Mind"
were not DNA-based, given what else was said of their biology.
On a similar note, there's Asimov's "Green Patches"/"Misbegotten
Missionary".
In Delaney's _The Fall of the Towers_, there are some creatures who
are (IIRC) resonances in the plasma of one particular star. There
might have been some crystalline creatures as well.
Which leads to one of the races in Brin's _Sundiver_, as well as the
folk of Cahuita(?) in _Masters of the Vortex_/_The Vortex Blaster_.
I would guess that the natives in Weinbaum's "A Martian Odyessy"
weren't DNA based, being silicon and all. Which reminds me of the
Chlorins from the Skylark books, as well as the Plutonians from
Niven's "Wait it Out".
Wayne Throop
: There was a time when experimental evidence showed that RNA carried
: memories. And before "oops, that's not what the results really
: showed," Saberhagen (_The Water of Thought_) and Niven used the idea.
Similar things occured with primordial (or other many-times-substellar)
black holes. Niven and others had written about them in the few months
before they were known (or at least predicted) to be unstable.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Lynn McGuire
Ben Bova had a book recently, "Titan" ???, where the rings of
Saturn were not ice but
********************** spoiler alert ****************
********************** spoiler alert ****************
********************** spoiler alert ****************
were actually nano creatures, possibly nanobots, that
automatically maintained themselves as the rings of Saturn,
propagating where necessary to maintain the ring structure
and volume.
Lynn
Paul Colquhoun
And also _Rocheworld_ by the same author.
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>Like it says...
>
>Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
>life were possible, and this topic came up.
Going a little further than most the comments so far:
DNA (Deoxyribonucleic Acid) is a base building block of chromosomes which
ss the pattern used to form the entity as it grows. Pretty much all
reproducing life has to have some form of pattern-carrying structure to
build on, however, I would think DNA is specific to carbon-based life, and
not neccesarily all of that. I would say all machine based life, and all
silicon based life lack DNA, for a start
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
Butch Malahide
wrote:
>
> DNA (Deoxyribonucleic Acid) is a base building block of chromosomes which
> ss the pattern used to form the entity as it grows. Pretty much all
> reproducing life has to have some form of pattern-carrying structure to
> build on, however, I would think DNA is specific to carbon-based life, and
> not neccesarily all of that. I would say all machine based life, and all
> silicon based life lack DNA, for a start
Energy beings, sun-dwellers, sentient stars, Black Clouds, . . .
Mike Schilling
"Scott Fluhrer" <sflu...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:12823336...@sj-nntpcache-2.cisco.com...
If the question was "life without DNA or anything analogous", that is much
harder.
Mike Schilling
"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrni6tlq...@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> Stewart Robert Hinsley <ste...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Niven's Bandersnatchi.
>
> The Bandersnatchi had DNA and genes. They were just really really large,
> and thus protected against accidental cosmic-ray mutation and the like.
Yeah, chromosomes the size of something much larger than a chromosome.
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> I hate to, but I have to mention Forward's _Code of the Lifemaker_ and
>> _Entoverse_ here as well. I guess a lot of AI stories fall under "non-RNA
>> life", come to think of it...
>
> I will now smack you with a wet herring for confusing Robert L. Forward
>with James P. Hogan.
I _WHAT_? ... Mmmmaybe I should be paying more attention to when I have to
take those _pills_. That's dreadful. Apologies!
Dave "... maybe it was because they both have a middle initial? ... no, that's
not it..." DeLaney
David DeLaney
>"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
>>>Niven's Bandersnatchi.
>>
>> The Bandersnatchi had DNA and genes. They were just really really large,
>> and thus protected against accidental cosmic-ray mutation and the like.
>
>Yeah, chromosomes the size of something much larger than a chromosome.
At their size, they could probably have been made out of the tnuctipun
equivalents of Tinkertoys and Legos. Maybe -representing- the DNA they were
based on? (Cuz that whole bloom of life back then was also DNA-based, the
bandersnatchi were just highly rejiggered.)
Greg Goss
>In Delaney's _The Fall of the Towers_, there are some creatures who
>are (IIRC) resonances in the plasma of one particular star. There
>might have been some crystalline creatures as well.
I haven't read any Delaney, but plasma life forms have been speculated
in a number of novels ... including
>Which leads to one of the races in Brin's _Sundiver_
>I would guess that the natives in Weinbaum's "A Martian Odyessy"
>weren't DNA based, being silicon and all.
Asimov had siloconeys in the asteroids, and Star Trek had the Horta.
Again, it's a reasonably common structure in SF.
>Which reminds me of the
>Chlorins from the Skylark books, as well as the Plutonians from
>Niven's "Wait it Out".
I don't remember the Chlorins -- I haven't read Smith since my early
teens in the early seventies.
Niven re-used his Helium II creatures in that cueball short story.
"Flatlander"? His Outsiders were a more developed form of Helium II
life.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27
Greg Goss
>DNA (Deoxyribonucleic Acid) is a base building block of chromosomes which
>ss the pattern used to form the entity as it grows. Pretty much all
>reproducing life has to have some form of pattern-carrying structure to
>build on, however, I would think DNA is specific to carbon-based life, and
>not neccesarily all of that.
I'm one of those who believes that RNA was developed first and that
DNA came later as "armoured RNA". Notice that in our cells, the DNA
must be copied to RNA before using the information. RNA is pretty
fragile; DNA isn't.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>Which reminds me of the
>>Chlorins from the Skylark books, as well as the Plutonians from
>>Niven's "Wait it Out".
>
>I don't remember the Chlorins -- I haven't read Smith since my early
>teens in the early seventies.
Chlorans, with an A, They were chlorine-breathers.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
Michael Grosberg
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
Maybe it's just me, but unless stated otherwise, I always assume alien
life to have a different genetic mechanism than DNA. DNA is just too
specific a molecule to have arisen independently on other worlds - I'm
sure there are plenty of other self replicating setups that simply
haven't occurred on earth.
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
> Like it says...
>
> Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> life were possible, and this topic came up.
Howard L Myers' "Polywater Doodle": Life made of "polywater"
<http://www.webscription.net/chapters/143913278X/143913278X___3.htm>
Hal Clement's "Half-Life" & Arthur Clarke's "Before Eden": Pre-life on
Titan & Venus, respectively.
Fred Hoyle's "The Black Cloud"
Arthur Clarke's "Crusade", "Castaway", "The Possessed": First is
non-biological life evolved on a lone wandering planet in the dark of
intergalactic space; second is life inside our sun that gets stranded on
earth after getting ejected by a solar eruption; third is parasitic life
comprising of indescribable stuff that rides the interstellar light.
--
<http://variety-sf.blogspot.com/>
<http://twitter.com/varietysf>
Mike Schilling
"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:4stu6616uhqpahmk8...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:23:35 -0600, Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>
>>>Which reminds me of the
>>>Chlorins from the Skylark books, as well as the Plutonians from
>>>Niven's "Wait it Out".
>>
>>I don't remember the Chlorins -- I haven't read Smith since my early
>>teens in the early seventies.
>
> Chlorans, with an A, They were chlorine-breathers.
Asimov had those too, in C-Chute.
Butch Malahide
Clarke's "The Fires Within".
Norm D. Plumber
When an artificial intelligence reproduces is its code 'analogous' to
DNA? I'd consider it analogous, and I suspect that "or anything
analogous" makes the question impossible or close to it, each creature
being required to spring forth fully formed from nothing, unicornlike.
--
Donated organs should be Wurlitzers.
Butch Malahide
The whirlwind in Heinlein's "Our Fair City"?
Michael Grosberg
> On Aug 20, 9:55 am, Evelyn Leeper <elee...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > Like it says...
>
> > Our science book discussion group got to talking about what sorts of
> > life were possible, and this topic came up.
>
_72 Letters_ by the same author.
Robert Carnegie
In some of these, I suppose the assumption is that the critters are
physically so different - temperature, body chemistry - that they
can't be using DNA, because it'd burn up or something.
And with aliens in general, we just say, why would anything about
their biology have to resemble ours?
Well... I can't overstate how much I am a layman on this,.but DNA and
RNA are very good at what they do. Maybe if every planet is a contest
between all possible different types of chemical base for life, DNA
always wins.
As for environments where it can't exist - consider the range of Earth
habitats used by "extremophiles" ... and that any alien planet
probably has a wide range of different environments, too. Life such
as on Earth can probably ifit in somewhere.
Conversely, silicon has the same valence as carbon, if that's the way
to put it, but is said otherwise to be in reality a poor basis for
complicated chemistry and large molecules, except when a sci-fi story
demands it.
As for breathing chlorine instead of oxygen, well, both are quite
reactive, but beyond that...
On the other hand, the "words" of our DNA - sets of three letters -
corresponding to elements of proteins, and other things maybe - that
seems to be an arbitrary code. Even if extraterrestrial life also
needs the same proteins built, it could use different symbols in the
alien DNA, compared to ours, with the same meaning. Think of ROT13
text code...
Indeed - I'm told - some life on Earth, including mitochondria inside
our own cells, uses a /slightly/ different DNA code. Close enough
that we don't doubt a common descent...
And microbes steal or lend DNA between individuals, even between
species(?)...
And viruses take their victims' DNA and pass it onto other species
along with the virus (although maybe not very often)...
And for up to five-sixths of the lifetime of Earth so far (depending
on when they started), it seems that only single cell life was living
on the planet...
And for a big slice of that time, there wasn't significant oxygen
around, either - either it wasn't produced in significant amounts, or
it got absorbed into the rocks instead of staying in the atmosphere.
Maybe nothing like us could have arisen while that was the case.
David DeLaney
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>In Delaney's _The Fall of the Towers_, there are some creatures who
>>are (IIRC) resonances in the plasma of one particular star. There
>>might have been some crystalline creatures as well.
>
>I haven't read any Delaney,
Hmf. Though I quite suspect he meant Delany.
>but plasma life forms have been speculated
>in a number of novels ... including
>
>>Which leads to one of the races in Brin's _Sundiver_
>Asimov had siloconeys in the asteroids,
and had plasma-based life in _The Gods Themselves_. (Stapledon did as well.)
And how about life with a "fourth-dimensional metabolic extrusion"? Unless
your DNA contains thiotimoline, you're going to be using something else as
genetic material, I'm fairly sure.
Butch Malahide
wrote:
>
> If the question was "life without DNA or anything analogous", that is much
> harder.
In Max C. Sheridan's "The Human Equation" (Thrilling Wonder Stories,
February, 1939) a scientist invents (and demonstrates by using it on
himself) a machine which turns a carbon-based organism into a silicon
monster by replacing its carbon atoms with silicon atoms. Naturally,
it would then have a silicon analogue of DNA in its cells (or would
have had, if DNA had been known in 1939).
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
> One of the later books in Brian Stableford's emmortality series
> (ARARAT, maybe?) is set on a world with non-DNA life.
That'd be DARK ARARAT, if it's the right book at all.
-- wds