An initial reaction to the movie of The Two Towers.
David G. Bell
not sure that I'll make another trip to a cinema.
There's a lot of good stuff, and so much of the story is there, but the
things that go wrong are significant. Though Gollum is a marvel of CGI
and animation, and we have a character which works and can carry whole
scenes.
[spoiler space]
First, the question of Theoden, the Rohirrim, and the Northern Ideal of
Courage. The film shows the Rohirrim as real people, rather than the
poetic ideal heroes of "The Battle of Maldon" (which, Tolkien wrote, was
not entirely approving of the effect of those ideals in a real battle).
It doesn't show the ideals those people are trying to live up to. As
for Theoden, the switch from Saruman's dupe is pretty dramatic. But I
think the many criticisms of what follows, of how he behaves, lead from
an attempt to show a man who knows he must lead his people, but doesn't
quite trust himself any more. He's afraid of where his own thoughts
come from.
Second, Faramir and Osgiliath. What Faramir does is a ruin of the book
character. He could have kept the Hobbits captive most of the way to
Osgiliath, while trying to decide. We know that he is going to be in
big trouble for letting them go. But he takes them into Osgiliath, a
semi-ruined city under attack by an army of Orcs, and then lets them go.
There's even a reference to the Orcs holding the eastern side of the
city, while they're there. So everyone is on the western side of the
Anduin, and Frodo, Sam, and Gollum have to somehow re-cross the river.
Films don't have to show everything, but this all gets a bit too much of
a change.
There's other stuff, but Helm's Deep was described for a dramatic scene
in a book, and it's flawed fortifications are flawed to allow the
Isengard Orcs to come close to success. So we have a straight ramp, and
no drawbridge. Things like that come from the book as much as the film,
only now we see them clearly.
Those who have read the book will also know that the film ends early.
No Cirith Ungol yet, no final scene of a broken Saruman defying Gandalf
from the Isengard balcony, and its consequences.
Minor point: Merry and Pippin do discuss tales of the Old Forest.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.
Colette Reap
>It didn't grab my heart in the way that Fellowship of the Ring did. I'm
>not sure that I'll make another trip to a cinema.
>
>There's a lot of good stuff, and so much of the story is there, but the
>things that go wrong are significant. Though Gollum is a marvel of CGI
>and animation, and we have a character which works and can carry whole
>scenes.
>
>[spoiler space]
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>First, the question of Theoden, the Rohirrim, and the Northern Ideal of
>Courage. The film shows the Rohirrim as real people, rather than the
>poetic ideal heroes of "The Battle of Maldon" (which, Tolkien wrote, was
>not entirely approving of the effect of those ideals in a real battle).
>It doesn't show the ideals those people are trying to live up to. As
>for Theoden, the switch from Saruman's dupe is pretty dramatic.
I am probably going to commit heresy here, but I really didn't like
the way it was handled in the book. In essence, Gandalf says 'Come
outside, I want to talk to you'. Theoden goes. Then Gandalf says 'Cast
aside your prop', Theoden does and all of a sudden he's completeley
'cured' and back to his old self. Under the circumstances, it's far
too quick (takes just over a printed page, and a quarter of that is a
description of Eowyn) and far too easy.
> But I think the many criticisms of what follows, of how he behaves, lead from
>an attempt to show a man who knows he must lead his people, but doesn't
>quite trust himself any more. He's afraid of where his own thoughts
>come from.
>
Good point.
--
Colette
* "2004: Discworld" * http://www.dwcon.org/ *
* August 20th-23rd, 2004 * Email: in...@dwcon.org *
David G. Bell
<20021221.09...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk "David G. Bell" wrote:
> It didn't grab my heart in the way that Fellowship of the Ring did. I'm
> not sure that I'll make another trip to a cinema.
>
> There's a lot of good stuff, and so much of the story is there, but the
> things that go wrong are significant. Though Gollum is a marvel of CGI
> and animation, and we have a character which works and can carry whole
> scenes.
Another thought...
[spoiler space]
The first meeting of Eomer and Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli has all the main
points about the pursuit of the Orcs, and the attack of the Rohirrim,
and the apparent deaths of Merry and Pippin in the chaos of battle.
And I wondered a little if Eomer, rather than helping the King Returned,
is paying a blood price when he provides the two horses (which I have an
impression he summoned by name).
John Lorentz
("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
>Those who have read the book will also know that the film ends early.
>No Cirith Ungol yet, no final scene of a broken Saruman defying Gandalf
>from the Isengard balcony, and its consequences.
That part makes sense (and has been mentioned several times in
interviews with Jackson). The third book, once you exclude all the
appendices, is quite a bit shorter than the first two. Moving that
last segment to the start of the third film evens out the timing.
(And I thought that the way TTT ended was just as dramatic as the way
the book ends).
--
John
Miche
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
> Another thought...
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> The first meeting of Eomer and Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli has all the main
> points about the pursuit of the Orcs, and the attack of the Rohirrim,
> and the apparent deaths of Merry and Pippin in the chaos of battle.
> And I wondered a little if Eomer, rather than helping the King Returned,
> is paying a blood price when he provides the two horses (which I have an
> impression he summoned by name).
He did. And they came when called.
The Horses of Rohan impressed me all the way round, actually...
In the scene with the Wargs they didn't falter or show any sign of fear.
Those are big nasty predators with Big Sharp Teeth, yet the Horses
trusted their riders completely.
(Yes, I know there were no big predatory things there when they filmed
the actual battle and they were added in later digitally. The effect
works well, I think.)
Miche
--
So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered
by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm
going to brush its teeth. So there.
-- Rob Landley
Michalak
> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
> >It didn't grab my heart in the way that Fellowship of the Ring did. I'm
> >not sure that I'll make another trip to a cinema.
> >
> >There's a lot of good stuff, and so much of the story is there, but the
> >things that go wrong are significant. Though Gollum is a marvel of CGI
> >and animation, and we have a character which works and can carry whole
> >scenes.
> >
> >[spoiler space]
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> >First, the question of Theoden, the Rohirrim, and the Northern Ideal of
> >Courage. The film shows the Rohirrim as real people, rather than the
> >poetic ideal heroes of "The Battle of Maldon" (which, Tolkien wrote, was
> >not entirely approving of the effect of those ideals in a real battle).
> >It doesn't show the ideals those people are trying to live up to. As
> >for Theoden, the switch from Saruman's dupe is pretty dramatic.
>
> I am probably going to commit heresy here, but I really didn't like
> the way it was handled in the book. In essence, Gandalf says 'Come
> outside, I want to talk to you'. Theoden goes. Then Gandalf says 'Cast
> aside your prop', Theoden does and all of a sudden he's completeley
> 'cured' and back to his old self. Under the circumstances, it's far
> too quick (takes just over a printed page, and a quarter of that is a
> description of Eowyn) and far too easy.
Yes... But as I remember the only thing keeping him in his chair were
Grima's silky words. There was magic there, but it was a small sort
of magic, subtle. So anyone, not just Gandalf, could have made
Theoden better. They would just have to be more persuasive than
Wormtongue. All else being equal I think that subtle would have been
better. And the actor playing Theoden was about a decade too young.
Michalak
David G. Bell
<micheinnz-D4EF4...@news.itconsult.net>
mich...@myrealbox.com "Miche" wrote:
> In article <20021221.16...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
> > Another thought...
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> > [spoiler space]
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> > The first meeting of Eomer and Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli has all the main
> > points about the pursuit of the Orcs, and the attack of the Rohirrim,
> > and the apparent deaths of Merry and Pippin in the chaos of battle.
> > And I wondered a little if Eomer, rather than helping the King Returned,
> > is paying a blood price when he provides the two horses (which I have an
> > impression he summoned by name).
>
> He did. And they came when called.
>
> The Horses of Rohan impressed me all the way round, actually...
>
> In the scene with the Wargs they didn't falter or show any sign of fear.
> Those are big nasty predators with Big Sharp Teeth, yet the Horses
> trusted their riders completely.
>
> (Yes, I know there were no big predatory things there when they filmed
> the actual battle and they were added in later digitally. The effect
> works well, I think.)
I think it was this week, in "The Life of Mammals", that they showed the
South American jungle dogs, which are odd-looking canines. And the
wargs in the movie did manage to look rather more like them, on a huge
scale, than wolves.
And did you see the way that Legolas mounted his horse.
David G. Bell
<859bef64.02122...@posting.google.com>
mich...@diac.com "Michalak" wrote:
I think the book does give the feeling that there is magic involved, at
least as much as Grima's ill-counsel, and it needed both to be removed.
The book just doesn't make sense otherwise.
Given PJ's dislike for the cliches of Western fantasy-movie magic, and
the way he resolved it in the wizard-fu duel (not that silly a name,
since I could imagine that style in a Hong Kong action movie), it even
makes sense for there to be a repeat of that style; a duel between
Gandalf and Saruman, which Gandalf wins easily.
How I imagine the situation is that Saruman has a loose control of
Theoden, enough to let Wormtongue run things, but can act through
Theoden at need. And creates the illusion of an old and feeble Theoden,
even affecting Theoden himself, which Gandalf dispells.
Now, there's a lot of things around the exorcism which still don't look
right, but the whole scene does look a little like a Hong Kong movie in
its style: both the magic and the way that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
deal with the thugs. Jackie Chan as Legolas? Well, there're moments
scattered all through the film that could call up that image.
It does make me wonder a little if RotK will come out with hints of
another style of movie.
Colette Reap
>Colette Reap <col...@lspace.org> wrote in message news:<ri290v8rgj5692s6g...@4ax.com>...
>> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>>
>> >It didn't grab my heart in the way that Fellowship of the Ring did. I'm
>> >not sure that I'll make another trip to a cinema.
>> >
>> >There's a lot of good stuff, and so much of the story is there, but the
>> >things that go wrong are significant. Though Gollum is a marvel of CGI
>> >and animation, and we have a character which works and can carry whole
>> >scenes.
>> >
>> >[spoiler space]
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>> > As for Theoden, the switch from Saruman's dupe is pretty dramatic.
>>
>> I am probably going to commit heresy here, but I really didn't like
>> the way it was handled in the book. In essence, Gandalf says 'Come
>> outside, I want to talk to you'. Theoden goes. Then Gandalf says 'Cast
>> aside your prop', Theoden does and all of a sudden he's completeley
>> 'cured' and back to his old self. Under the circumstances, it's far
>> too quick (takes just over a printed page, and a quarter of that is a
>> description of Eowyn) and far too easy.
>
>Yes... But as I remember the only thing keeping him in his chair were
>Grima's silky words. There was magic there, but it was a small sort
>of magic, subtle.
Agreed. However...
>So anyone, not just Gandalf, could have made Theoden better.
>They would just have to be more persuasive than Wormtongue.
I didn't see anything in Gandalf's words to Theoden that could have
wrought the change that they did to someone who was, as Graydon
points out, not possessed but in despair and who had been like that
for some time.
Kip Williams
> It does make me wonder a little if RotK will come out with hints of
> another style of movie.
They'll use CG to have Elvis come back and sing. (After all...)
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!" --Kodos
Danny Low
>Yes... But as I remember the only thing keeping him in his chair were
>Grima's silky words. There was magic there, but it was a small sort
>of magic, subtle.
In Tolkien's world, the spoken word is very important to casting
magic. In the books, Gandalf warns about letting Saruman speak as his
words can cast a magic spell on you. Grima is Saruman's agent and
could have been taught some of Saruman's spells. So Grima's silky
words could have been very powerful magic.
Danny
Don't question authority. What makes you think they
know anything?
Matt Austern
> On 21 Dec 2002 13:55:17 -0800, mich...@diac.com (Michalak) wrote:
>
> >Yes... But as I remember the only thing keeping him in his chair were
> >Grima's silky words. There was magic there, but it was a small sort
> >of magic, subtle.
>
> In Tolkien's world, the spoken word is very important to casting
> magic. In the books, Gandalf warns about letting Saruman speak as his
> words can cast a magic spell on you. Grima is Saruman's agent and
> could have been taught some of Saruman's spells. So Grima's silky
> words could have been very powerful magic.
I think that's an overly literal understanding of magic, and of what's
happening to Theoden.
Danny Low
wrote:
>The Horses of Rohan impressed me all the way round, actually...
The horses of Rohan clearly are magical with Shadowfax being the most
magical of all. This is made very explicit in the books. Of course,
when elves can walk on snow, magical horses are to be expected. :-)
Miche
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
> On Sunday, in article
> <micheinnz-D4EF4...@news.itconsult.net>
> mich...@myrealbox.com "Miche" wrote:
>
> > In article <20021221.16...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
> > db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
> >
> > > Another thought...
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> >
> > In the scene with the Wargs they didn't falter or show any sign of fear.
> > Those are big nasty predators with Big Sharp Teeth, yet the Horses
> > trusted their riders completely.
> >
> > (Yes, I know there were no big predatory things there when they filmed
> > the actual battle and they were added in later digitally. The effect
> > works well, I think.)
>
> I think it was this week, in "The Life of Mammals", that they showed the
> South American jungle dogs, which are odd-looking canines. And the
> wargs in the movie did manage to look rather more like them, on a huge
> scale, than wolves.
They looked hyena-like as well.
> And did you see the way that Legolas mounted his horse.
OH yes. Impressive, that. Ghoddamn showboating Elf... ;)
Mark Jones
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell")' confessed his crimes:
>On Sunday, in article
> <micheinnz-D4EF4...@news.itconsult.net>
> mich...@myrealbox.com "Miche" wrote:
>
>> In article <20021221.16...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
>> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>>
>> > Another thought...
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>I think it was this week, in "The Life of Mammals", that they showed the
>South American jungle dogs, which are odd-looking canines. And the
>wargs in the movie did manage to look rather more like them, on a huge
>scale, than wolves.
I thought the wargs looked like giant hyenas. (And just now thought
of how...eerie it could be to have an army of orcs charging on hyenas
that laughed hysterically as they closed with you.)
--
"It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see."
"_Real_ things?"
--Egg Shen and Jack Burton
Aris Katsaris
"Danny Low" <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9u0c0vc3rredd8us9...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:24:41 +1300, Miche <mich...@myrealbox.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The Horses of Rohan impressed me all the way round, actually...
>
> The horses of Rohan clearly are magical with Shadowfax being the most
> magical of all.
Not "magical", just extremely intelligent..
> This is made very explicit in the books.
I don't remember any "magic" attached to the horses, not even elven horses
like Asfaloth...
Aris Katsaris
Miche
"Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> "Danny Low" <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:9u0c0vc3rredd8us9...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:24:41 +1300, Miche <mich...@myrealbox.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >The Horses of Rohan impressed me all the way round, actually...
> >
> > The horses of Rohan clearly are magical with Shadowfax being the most
> > magical of all.
>
> Not "magical", just extremely intelligent..
Yes.
> > This is made very explicit in the books.
>
> I don't remember any "magic" attached to the horses, not even elven horses
> like Asfaloth...
Helped by Elvish light harness and very gentle riding techniques.
(Although I was concerned at the way poor Arod was being kicked by
Legolas at one point.)
Colette Reap
>In <ri290v8rgj5692s6g...@4ax.com>,
> Colette Reap <col...@lspace.org> onsendan:
>> db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") wrote:
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>>>It doesn't show the ideals those people are trying to live up to. As
>>>for Theoden, the switch from Saruman's dupe is pretty dramatic.
>>
>> I am probably going to commit heresy here, but I really didn't like
>> the way it was handled in the book. In essence, Gandalf says 'Come
>> outside, I want to talk to you'. Theoden goes. Then Gandalf says 'Cast
>> aside your prop', Theoden does and all of a sudden he's completeley
>> 'cured' and back to his old self. Under the circumstances, it's far
>> too quick (takes just over a printed page, and a quarter of that is a
>> description of Eowyn) and far too easy.
>
>Theoden in the book is not possessed, he's _despairing_.
Oh yes, agreed.
>
>And while Gandalf's initial ... healing is the wrong word ... is very
>abrupt, Theoden has to _keep chosing_ not to despair, and does not
>finally choose not to despair until :The Return of the King:, in one of
>the most vivid scenes JRRT ever wrote, when Theoden seems old and
>shrunken facing the fires around the Minas Tirith after the host of
>Rohan has come out of the Stonewain Valley.
Agreed, and once you have read all the books you can appreciate this,
but there are people who are seeing the film who have never read them
- they can't view the story holistically in the way that those who
have read the books can. Also, things that work textually don't
necessarily work visually. (I know, grandmother/eggs...)
>
>I could live with a more obvious casting away of malign influences; the
>overt possession does not make sense.
Agreed.
>
>The real problem is the complete loss of Theoden _as_ king; the whole
>'Arise, Riders of Theoden!' is gone, the guards drawing their swords and
>crying 'command us!', the nameless farmer with the notched shield and
>dented helm going from 'tell Eomer it is too late' to a straight spine
>and determination; everything changes in that Northern heroic world when
>the king takes the field, and we _see_ that in the text. It's not
>there, Theoden Ednew is not there, in the movie at all, to its very
>great detriment.
In his defense, I suspect that Peter Jackson knew that he was making a
movie for an audience of which the vast majority would have no idea
what the paradigms of the Northern heroic world were and would not
necessarily appreciate what was being shown to them.
Jancie
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> I think it was this week, in "The Life of Mammals", that they showed the
> South American jungle dogs, which are odd-looking canines. And the
> wargs in the movie did manage to look rather more like them, on a huge
> scale, than wolves.
>
> And did you see the way that Legolas mounted his horse.
No, but I saw reins on Shadowfax twice. :-(
Janice in GA
Robert Sneddon
<harpn...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>No, but I saw reins on Shadowfax twice. :-(
I noticed Galdalf's cloak conveniently covered any hint that Shadowfax
was wearing a saddle (or not).
I'm not sure JRR knew much about the realities of horseriding,
especially bareback. The only way to portray book-Shadowfax truly would
be as CGI; in the real world horse-flesh and people-flesh do not cope
well with coming together without the amelioration of a well-fitted
securely-cinched saddle.
Still a very good-looking horse, thoughh.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Joel Rosenberg
> In article <36bbd26.02122...@posting.google.com>, Jancie
> <harpn...@yahoo.com> writes
> >
> >No, but I saw reins on Shadowfax twice. :-(
>
> I noticed Galdalf's cloak conveniently covered any hint that Shadowfax
> was wearing a saddle (or not).
>
> I'm not sure JRR knew much about the realities of horseriding,
> especially bareback. The only way to portray book-Shadowfax truly would
> be as CGI; in the real world horse-flesh and people-flesh do not cope
> well with coming together without the amelioration of a well-fitted
> securely-cinched saddle.
A childhood friend was, in my distinct recollection, able to ride his
horse at what I remember as very quickly -- I know it wasn't quite a
gallop, but it was a fast canter -- bareback, while looking like he
was glued to the back of the horse. (The few times I got on the
horse's back, with a saddle, a slow walk had me bouncing on my
tailbone.)
It could be my recollection is faulty, of course. Except about my
own painful tailbone.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://islamthereligionofpeace.blogspot.com
Robert Sneddon
<jo...@ellegon.com> writes
>A childhood friend was, in my distinct recollection, able to ride his
>horse at what I remember as very quickly -- I know it wasn't quite a
>gallop, but it was a fast canter -- bareback, while looking like he
>was glued to the back of the horse. (The few times I got on the
>horse's back, with a saddle, a slow walk had me bouncing on my
>tailbone.)
But for how long? Gandalf had gone to bring back Eomer, who was
hundreds of leagues distant from Helm's Deep. That suggests he would be
riding for hours on end (no pun intended) for several days, at speed.
His backside and thighs would be bloody mush after a single day unless
he had wizard healing salve in his purse.
In the book Shadowfax was a magic horsie, the precusrsor of a thousand
fantasy magic horsies (cf M. Lackey). Using real horses on screen to
represent them just doesn't work unfortunately.
Joel Rosenberg
> In article <m265tk6...@joelr.ellegon.com>, Joel Rosenberg
> <jo...@ellegon.com> writes
>
> >A childhood friend was, in my distinct recollection, able to ride his
> >horse at what I remember as very quickly -- I know it wasn't quite a
> >gallop, but it was a fast canter -- bareback, while looking like he
> >was glued to the back of the horse.
> But for how long?
A fair enough question. A while, certainly but not miles and miles,
as far as I know.
--
"Well, you see, it's such a transitional creature. It's a piss-poor
reptile and not very much of a bird."
- Melvin Konner, from "The Tangled Wing", quoting a zoologist who has
studied the archeopteryz and found it "very much like people"
------------------------------------------------------------
http://islamthereligionofpeace.blogspot.com
Danny Low
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> in the real world horse-flesh and people-flesh do not cope
>well with coming together without the amelioration of a well-fitted
>securely-cinched saddle.
Circus performers and stunt riders can ride bare back very well. They
are not ordinary in their skills and they practice a lot. However we
can presume that Gandalf is a very good rider. He certainly has had a
lot of practice in the books and is no ordinary person. :-)
Danny Low
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Not "magical", just extremely intelligent..
>I don't remember any "magic" attached to the horses, not even elven horses
>like Asfaloth...
The Rohan horses can ride at speed over distances in the books that
would kill an ordinary horse. In both the movie and the books it is
implied that the horses can go full gallop continuously. (TT pp
108-110 2nd ed. 1966 as an example.) In real life you can go full
gallop only for a short period of time. In real life you have to get
off the horse periodically and walk to give the horse some rest from
carrying you.
These horses are magical. They can do deeds that no mundane horse can
do but which are common to magical horses.
Aris Katsaris
Even if they are a special breed that can outlast modern-day horses (I
wouldn't
know anything about it) how does that make them "magical", rather than
just physically superior?
Oliphants were likewise much bigger and stronger than modern-day
elephants, but I wouldn't call them "magical" either...
Aris Katsaris
Robert Sneddon
<kats...@otenet.gr> writes
>
>Oliphants were likewise much bigger and stronger than modern-day
>elephants, but I wouldn't call them "magical" either...
The cube-square law was severely bent by the Oliphaunts -- their legs
would have collapsed under the animal's weight. There's a reason the
elephaant is the largest living mammal.
Danny Low
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Even if they are a special breed that can outlast modern-day horses (I
>wouldn't
>know anything about it) how does that make them "magical", rather than
>just physically superior?
Why are you so intent on removing the magic from LOTR? The book has
wizards and magic swords. Why shouldn't it have magic horses? Magic
horses are as much a stable (sic) of fantasies as magic swords. Why
do you want the Rohan horses to be ordinary nags when their abilities
can be explained as magic? There are plenty of other magic beings such
as ents and elves in the story. So again, why not magic horses?
Sue Mason
Yes, I noticed the reins too. White reins, I thought, quite nifty.
But they were obvious.
Most of the time it worked though.
Sue (who enjoyed TTT immensely, even with the changes and so did
everyone else in the packed cinema).
Miche
Danny Low <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote:
The horses are not _necessarily_ magic, but nor are they "ordinary
nags". The Horses of Rohan are not just the best Horses in
Middle-Earth, but the best horses that have ever existed.
A.C.
news:micheinnz-ACE70...@news.itconsult.net...
> The horses are not _necessarily_ magic, but nor are they "ordinary
> nags". The Horses of Rohan are not just the best Horses in
> Middle-Earth, but the best horses that have ever existed.
I think that if you take into account the creation stories introduced in the
Silmarillion, I don't think there's any point in separating the mundane from
the magical in Tolkien. Everything was made by Eru and the other guys, so
the distinction becomes mostly meaningless, especially considering how vague
Gandalf's power was portrayed (and Galadriel's, and Elrond's, etc.).
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand
Russell
Danny Low
wrote:
>The horses are not _necessarily_ magic, but nor are they "ordinary
>nags". The Horses of Rohan are not just the best Horses in
>Middle-Earth, but the best horses that have ever existed.
I strongly question whether even the best horses that ever existed
could have travelled the distances implied in the stories in the given
time period. The Pony Express had to change horses every 10-20 miles
and that is about as fast as you can go with horses without killing
them. About 75 miles per day was all the riders could do by switching
horses. Tolkien was rather vague about exact distances and times but
they appear to me to exceed these limits.
Kate Nepveu
>Another thought...
SPOILERS.
>And I wondered a little if Eomer, rather than helping the King Returned,
>is paying a blood price when he provides the two horses (which I have an
>impression he summoned by name).
He did summon by name, which I thought cool.
The blood price hadn't occurred to me, but I like the idea very much.
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Michael J. Lowrey
>
> Miche <mich...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >The horses are not _necessarily_ magic, but nor are they "ordinary
> >nags". The Horses of Rohan are not just the best Horses in
> >Middle-Earth, but the best horses that have ever existed.
>
> I strongly question whether even the best horses that ever existed
> could have travelled the distances implied in the stories in the given
> time period. The Pony Express had to change horses every 10-20 miles
> and that is about as fast as you can go with horses without killing
> them. About 75 miles per day was all the riders could do by switching
> horses. Tolkien was rather vague about exact distances and times but
> they appear to me to exceed these limits.
In Tolkien's world, the modern abilities of fine horses, like those of
humankind, are but a shadow of what their noble ancestors could do in a
worthy cause. It's fantasy, after all, not historical fiction; you just
have to deal with it.
--
Michael J. Lowrey
Nancy Lebovitz
Also, I got the impression that Tolkien knew a lot about walking and
not much about riding or horses. The horses are only sketched in.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Bumper stickers *and* buttons
War is how Americans learn geography
Danny Low
<oran...@uwm.edu> wrote:
>In Tolkien's world, the modern abilities of fine horses, like those of
>humankind, are but a shadow of what their noble ancestors could do in a
>worthy cause. It's fantasy, after all, not historical fiction; you just
>have to deal with it.
This is just another way of saying the horses were magical.
Danny Low
Lebovitz) wrote:
>Also, I got the impression that Tolkien knew a lot about walking and
>not much about riding or horses. The horses are only sketched in.
In fantasies, horses are the equivalent of spaceships with FTL drives.
They exist only to get the Hero from point A to point B Just In Time
to save the Heroine. The actual reality of how it can be done is a
matter of suspended disbelief. At least with fantasy, the author can
say it is magic.
Del Cotter
Michael J. Lowrey <oran...@uwm.edu> said:
>Danny Low wrote:
>> I strongly question whether even the best horses that ever existed
>> could have travelled the distances implied in the stories in the given
>> time period. The Pony Express had to change horses every 10-20 miles
>> and that is about as fast as you can go with horses without killing
>> them. About 75 miles per day was all the riders could do by switching
>> horses. Tolkien was rather vague about exact distances and times but
>> they appear to me to exceed these limits.
>
>In Tolkien's world, the modern abilities of fine horses, like those of
>humankind, are but a shadow of what their noble ancestors could do in a
>worthy cause. It's fantasy, after all, not historical fiction; you just
>have to deal with it.
Psst. Don't tell Danny about the multi-century lifetimes of humans in
the book, if he's going to boggle at the magic horses. And let's not
get into the power-to-weight ratio of Eagles.
I think of Tolkien's animal superpowers as the time-reversed analogue of
the magic materials science in Gernsbackian science fiction. The way
future steel was ten times stronger than present day steel, and future
glass was stronger than steel, and future Jello was stronger than glass.
--
. . . . Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk . . . .
JustRead:Death&Life:LoisMcMasterBujoldDiplomaticImmunity:NeilGaimanAmeri
canGods:GwynethJonesBoldAsLove:KenMacLeodDarkLight:DamonKnightWhyDoBirds
ToRead:JRRTolkienTheTwoTowers:RobertCharlesWilsonBios:ChristopherPriestF
Dave Weingart
>future steel was ten times stronger than present day steel, and future
>glass was stronger than steel, and future Jello was stronger than glass.
The Jello in my high school cafeteria was stronger than glass.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Quinze Filk Festival (15th UK Filkcon)
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Feb 7-9,2003, Ipswich, England
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux http://www.contabile.org.uk/
ICQ 57055207 qui...@contabile.org.uk
Daniel R. Reitman
Weingart) wrote:
>The Jello in my high school cafeteria was stronger than glass.
Maybe the gelatin came from descendants of Tolkien's horses.
Dan, ad nauseam
Del Cotter
Daniel R. Reitman <drei...@spiritone.com> said:
>phyd...@liii.com (Dave Weingart) wrote:
>>The Jello in my high school cafeteria was stronger than glass.
Well, there you go, see, one of those "living in the future" moments :-)
>Maybe the gelatin came from descendants of Tolkien's horses.
Wouldn't work. Modern horses *are* descendants of Tolkien's horses,
just as we are descendants of Aragorn. It's just that nothing is as
good as it was in the old days, and children got no respect. And their
music is just noise.
Ross Smith
>
> Wouldn't work. Modern horses *are* descendants of Tolkien's horses,
> just as we are descendants of Aragorn. It's just that nothing is as
> good as it was in the old days, and children got no respect. And
> their music is just noise.
Now we know why they had so much trouble crossing Caradhras through the
snow. It was uphill both ways, of course.
--
Ross Smith ......... r-s...@ihug.co.nz ......... Auckland, New Zealand
"Oh dear. This calls for a very special blend of
psychology and extreme violence." -- Vyvyan
Aris Katsaris
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:15:27 -0600, "Michael J. Lowrey"
> <oran...@uwm.edu> wrote:
>
> >In Tolkien's world, the modern abilities of fine horses, like those of
> >humankind, are but a shadow of what their noble ancestors could do in a
> >worthy cause. It's fantasy, after all, not historical fiction; you just
> >have to deal with it.
>
> This is just another way of saying the horses were magical.
No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
longer exist?
A response I sent to this thread several days ago doesn't seem to
have propagated from my newsserver - I'm now trying it again
through a different one.
-------
"Danny Low" <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:t70g0v88l61kr7mdt...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 02:10:35 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >Even if they are a special breed that can outlast modern-day horses (I
> >wouldn't
> >know anything about it) how does that make them "magical", rather than
> >just physically superior?
>
> Why are you so intent on removing the magic from LOTR? The book has
> wizards and magic swords. Why shouldn't it have magic horses? Magic
> horses are as much a stable (sic) of fantasies as magic swords. Why
> do you want the Rohan horses to be ordinary nags when their abilities
> can be explained as magic? There are plenty of other magic beings such
> as ents and elves in the story. So again, why not magic horses?
Well, see, here's our difference: I wouldn't call ents or elves "magical
beings" either. Especially not Ents. They are creatures of Tolkien's
world, with their own abilities, sure. But part of the natural order of
things. Why call Ents magical and not call dwarves likewise magical?
You'll find that even swords aren't called "magical" in the book. Some
of them have "spells woven round them" or some such thing, but all
these bits are *subtle* and you never really know where craft
ends and art continues and magic finally begins.
My main opposition in labelling everything "magical" is that inside
Tolkien's universe the more a character knows about things people
label "magic" the less often he (or she) tends to use that word. Hobbits
use it all the time, because they have no such skills of their own - elves
who work it all the time never use the word at all and seem confused
when others use it.
So you say "why not explain the horses' abilities with magic?" My answer
is "because there's no need". We know already that atleast one strain of
the Rohirrim horses, the mearas, (of which Shadowfax was chief) were
said to be descendants of horses that were long ago brought from Aman
by Orome...
If that immediately makes them magical... well, ok. But Tolkien never used
the word in that way...
Aris Katsaris
Andrew Plotkin
Heh.
"Carrageenthril! Dwarf-agar! Clear as glass, and yet stronger than
soap when worked... Alas, our love for it was too great. We delved too
deeply in the Horsehoof Hills, and boiled too long; we awoke Durin's
Bane. Of that stench I will speak not."
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Harry Payne
>In fantasies, horses are the equivalent of spaceships with FTL drives.
>They exist only to get the Hero from point A to point B Just In Time
>to save the Heroine. The actual reality of how it can be done is a
>matter of suspended disbelief. At least with fantasy, the author can
>say it is magic.
I refer you to Diane Wynne Jones' "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland":
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0886778328/qid%3D1041094496/026
-0885787-2685200>
"Horses are of a breed unique to Fantasyland. They are capable of
galloping full-tilt all day without a rest. Sometimes they do not
require food or water. They never cast shoes, go lame, or put their
hooves down holes, except when the Management deems it necessary, as
when the forces of the DARK LORD are only half an hour behind...."
--
Harry
"We are less interested in actions than in attitudes."
- The Nightwatch, Babylon 5.
Danny Low
<d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Psst. Don't tell Danny about the multi-century lifetimes of humans in
>the book, if he's going to boggle at the magic horses. And let's not
>get into the power-to-weight ratio of Eagles.
Congratulations on getting it exactly wrong. It is people such as Aris
who are boggled. I am the one saying the horses are magical.
Danny Low
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
>or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
>longer exist?
I was not aware that Tolkien had dinosaurs in Middle Earth. Mixing up
Earth and Middle Earth is very poor argument.
>Well, see, here's our difference: I wouldn't call ents or elves "magical
>beings" either. Especially not Ents. They are creatures of Tolkien's
>world, with their own abilities, sure. But part of the natural order of
>things. Why call Ents magical and not call dwarves likewise magical?
I would say they are all magical. After all Middle Earth is a world
where magic still works.
>My main opposition in labelling everything "magical" is that inside
>Tolkien's universe the more a character knows about things people
>label "magic" the less often he (or she) tends to use that word. Hobbits
>use it all the time, because they have no such skills of their own - elves
>who work it all the time never use the word at all and seem confused
>when others use it.
>If that immediately makes them magical... well, ok. But Tolkien never used
>the word in that way...
Tolkien did not feel it necessary to put in expositiory lumps in his
books explaining how the magic works in his work. Magic was a natural
and normal part of his world. It did not need explaining.
Aris Katsaris
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:29:44 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
> >or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
> >longer exist?
>
> I was not aware that Tolkien had dinosaurs in Middle Earth. Mixing up
> Earth and Middle Earth is very poor argument.
Um... Tolkien's world is supposed to be a fictional past of *our* world,
not some different planet. It may or may not include "dinosaurs", it does
include the pterodactyl-like beasts of the Nazgul, etc, etc...
> >Well, see, here's our difference: I wouldn't call ents or elves "magical
> >beings" either. Especially not Ents. They are creatures of Tolkien's
> >world, with their own abilities, sure. But part of the natural order of
> >things. Why call Ents magical and not call dwarves likewise magical?
>
> I would say they are all magical. After all Middle Earth is a world
> where magic still works.
So Tolkien's humans are magical too, because they live in Middle-earth?
Even the Rohirrim who have normal lifespans, no gifts of foresight or
anything of the sort?
> >My main opposition in labelling everything "magical" is that inside
> >Tolkien's universe the more a character knows about things people
> >label "magic" the less often he (or she) tends to use that word. Hobbits
> >use it all the time, because they have no such skills of their own -
elves
> >who work it all the time never use the word at all and seem confused
> >when others use it.
> >If that immediately makes them magical... well, ok. But Tolkien never
used
> >the word in that way...
>
> Tolkien did not feel it necessary to put in expositiory lumps in his
> books explaining how the magic works in his work. Magic was a
> natural and normal part of his world. It did not need explaining.
So, how do you differentiate it from non-magical forces? How does
the word "magical" to describe the Rohirrim horses have any meaning
if every horse and every creature and every item in Middle-earth is
just as magical?
Aris Katsaris
Jordin Kare
>
> I think of Tolkien's animal superpowers as the time-reversed analogue of
> the magic materials science in Gernsbackian science fiction. The way
> future steel was ten times stronger than present day steel, and future
> glass was stronger than steel, and future Jello was stronger than glass.
In one of the YA space-adventure series from my childhood (not Tom
Corbett, but I can't think of it and the books are down in California)
the authors seemed to have listened to the advice in The Graduate and
made everything out of plastic: Plassteel, plastiglass, etc.
Alas, none of those came to pass, with the possible exception of plastic
jello...
--
Jordin Kare
"Don't count your photons before they're emitted"
Aris Katsaris
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:11:38 +0000, Del Cotter
> <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Psst. Don't tell Danny about the multi-century lifetimes of humans in
> >the book, if he's going to boggle at the magic horses. And let's not
> >get into the power-to-weight ratio of Eagles.
>
> Congratulations on getting it exactly wrong. It is people such as Aris
> who are boggled.
I am not "boggled" just because I object to labelling "magic" any trivial
physical impossibility or improbability which Tolkien may have not been
a good enough expert in biology to account for.
If you say that only magic could ever produce a strong enough breed of
horse to resemble the abilities of the Rohan horses... fine. But you still
have to show me that it was Tolkien's *intention* that the horses be
magical.
If Tolkien did not intend them to be magical, then they were not. It's
*his* story.
Aris Katsaris
Nancy Lebovitz
Danny Low <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:29:44 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
><kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>>No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
>>or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
>>longer exist?
>
>I was not aware that Tolkien had dinosaurs in Middle Earth. Mixing up
>Earth and Middle Earth is very poor argument.
It's easy to think that the Nazgul rode pterodactyls, but I don't
know whether it's canonical.
Aris Katsaris
"Nancy Lebovitz" <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:SqqP9.903$zi2.6...@newshog.newsread.com...
> In article <i34s0vsmg2tja4n3j...@4ax.com>,
> Danny Low <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:29:44 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> ><kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
> >
> >>No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
> >>or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
> >>longer exist?
> >
> >I was not aware that Tolkien had dinosaurs in Middle Earth. Mixing up
> >Earth and Middle Earth is very poor argument.
>
> It's easy to think that the Nazgul rode pterodactyls, but I don't
> know whether it's canonical.
Tolkien himself commented thusly:
***
"Pterodactyl. Yes and no. I did not intend the steed of the
Witch-King to be what is now a 'pterodactyl', and often is
drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind
many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific
mythology of the 'Prehistoric'). But obviously it is *pterodactylic*
and owes much to the new mythology, and its description even
provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of
older geological eras."
--Letters #211
***
Aris Katsaris
John Lorentz
wrote:
>In one of the YA space-adventure series from my childhood (not Tom
>Corbett, but I can't think of it and the books are down in California)
>the authors seemed to have listened to the advice in The Graduate and
>made everything out of plastic: Plassteel, plastiglass, etc.
Sounds a whole lot like the Tom Swift, Jr. books from the late 50s to
the early 70s. (Mine are upstairs--well, all but # 34, which I've
never found.)
--
John
Danny Low
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>Um... Tolkien's world is supposed to be a fictional past of *our* world,
>not some different planet. It may or may not include "dinosaurs", it does
>include the pterodactyl-like beasts of the Nazgul, etc, etc...
This proves that Middle Earth is magical as all myths and legends show
the past is full of magic. Why do you even read the series? Just
re-read Gibbon if you want a epic trilogy of total mundaness.
Matt Austern
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:59:39 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >Um... Tolkien's world is supposed to be a fictional past of *our* world,
> >not some different planet. It may or may not include "dinosaurs", it does
> >include the pterodactyl-like beasts of the Nazgul, etc, etc...
>
> This proves that Middle Earth is magical as all myths and legends show
> the past is full of magic. Why do you even read the series? Just
> re-read Gibbon if you want a epic trilogy of total mundaness.
What people (including me) are objecting to is your dichotomy between
"magic" and "mundaness".
There are fantasy authors where I think that categorization makes
sense. Tolkien is not one of them. It's a category error to think
that anything strange or marvelous is to be called "magic", and it's a
conceptual mistake to think that everything that one might call
"magic" is of the same nature. Galadriel didn't understand what magic
was, and she was right to call the concept into question.
Jordin Kare
No, it wasn't the TS Jr. books, although I did read those and have most
of them (along with a handful of the original Tom Swift series).
I think it was "Digby Allen, Space Explorer" Standard 50's SF
universe, with both Mars and Venus inhabited, and nuclear rocket ships
flown by clean-cut youths. I still remember a scene where their ship
has been crippled by the bad guys cutting the main control cable and
leaving them to fall into the Sun, and the Venusian or Mercurian or
whatever that they've recently rescued saves them by using its multitude
of tiny digits to sort through the thousands of color coded wires and
find the ones that control the engines, so they can jury-rig a control
board...
They just don't write 'em like that any more.
Aris Katsaris
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:59:39 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >Um... Tolkien's world is supposed to be a fictional past of *our* world,
> >not some different planet. It may or may not include "dinosaurs", it does
> >include the pterodactyl-like beasts of the Nazgul, etc, etc...
>
> This proves that Middle Earth is magical as all myths and legends show
> the past is full of magic.
So Telemachus as a person is magical simply because he took part in
the Odyssey, which is full of magical things happening?
I don't use your definition of the word "magical", okay? Just accept
that we are using different definitions, and that *Tolkien* didn't use
your definition of the word either.
> Why do you even read the series?
Because I love it?
> Just re-read Gibbon if you want a epic trilogy of total mundaness.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I will not call hobbits "magical" just
because they are short, and I will not call oliphaunts "magical" just
because they are big, and I will *not* call the Rohirrim horses
"magical" just because they are fast and enduring. You'll have to
give me a better reason than that.
But I will definitely not call them "mundane" either. I pity you for
thinking that anything not magical must be "mundane" instead.
Aris Katsaris
Priscilla Ballou
Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <36bbd26.02122...@posting.google.com>, Jancie
> <harpn...@yahoo.com> writes
> >
> >No, but I saw reins on Shadowfax twice. :-(
>
> I noticed Galdalf's cloak conveniently covered any hint that Shadowfax
> was wearing a saddle (or not).
>
> I'm not sure JRR knew much about the realities of horseriding,
> especially bareback. The only way to portray book-Shadowfax truly would
> be as CGI; in the real world horse-flesh and people-flesh do not cope
> well with coming together without the amelioration of a well-fitted
> securely-cinched saddle.
>
> Still a very good-looking horse, thoughh.
And I loved that moment when Gandalf rested his face against
Shadowfax's. Nice intimacy.
Priscilla
--
And it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Christmas well,
if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us,
and all of us! God bless Us, Every One!"
-- Charles Dickens' _A Christmas Carol_
Ed Dravecky III
> I think it was "Digby Allen, Space Explorer" Standard 50's SF
> universe, with both Mars and Venus inhabited, and nuclear rocket
> ships flown by clean-cut youths. I still remember a scene where
> their ship has been crippled by the bad guys cutting the main
> control cable and leaving them to fall into the Sun, and the
> Venusian or Mercurian or whatever that they've recently rescued
> saves them by using its multitude of tiny digits to sort through
> the thousands of color coded wires and find the ones that
> control the engines, so they can jury-rig a control board...
Ooh, now I have to see if my old school library still has their
near-complete collection of Danny Dunn adventures. Good stuff.
--
Ed Dravecky III - Addison, Texas
"Security breach? It's a bowling alley!"
James J. Walton
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Ed Dravecky III wrote:
> Ooh, now I have to see if my old school library still has their
> near-complete collection of Danny Dunn adventures. Good stuff.
Danny Dunn!
Someone else has read those?
Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
Don't think I ever found all of them.
Danny Low
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>I don't use your definition of the word "magical", okay?
Tis a pity. There is no point in discussing this matter any further
since we have no common ground.
Aris Katsaris
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:59:42 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >I don't use your definition of the word "magical", okay?
>
> Tis a pity. There is no point in discussing this matter any further
> since we have no common ground.
Language is meant to foster communication. I feel you choose
to see it as an obstacle instead, meant to obfuscate instead of
clarify...
Aris Katsaris
Jordin Kare
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Ed Dravecky III wrote:
>
> > Ooh, now I have to see if my old school library still has their
> > near-complete collection of Danny Dunn adventures. Good stuff.
>
>
> Danny Dunn!
> Someone else has read those?
Ohh, yes.
> Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
> Don't think I ever found all of them.
I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
Robert Sneddon
<jtk...@attglobal.net> writes
>
>I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
>Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
>found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
Ever find any of the Heterodyne Boys books? Especially the Big Book of
Fun Projects? I so want that book... Build your own Suspension Bridge,
your own Tree House, your own PWR...
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
David Dyer-Bennet
I read a couple, but they never really caught my imagination (neither
did Tom Swift Jr., though I read a few more of those).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Annette M. Stroud
When my son was of a reading-to age (well, actually he still is; I fairly
recently read Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat to him), we read
almost all of the Danny Dunns.
Annette
Andrew Plotkin
I suspect that more RASFF readers than not are familiar with Danny
Dunn.
Beth Friedman
Kare), <1fo0oki.1f9n57xigsfuzN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
>Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
>found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
I'm still missing one of the Mushroom Planet books -- either the
fourth or fifth one.
But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
which are two of my early favorites.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>But I do keep an eye out for the
>Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books
I have an extra, new, of the first book of this series in case anybody
needs it.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Matt Austern
> In article <1fo0oki.1f9n57xigsfuzN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, Jordin Kare
> <jtk...@attglobal.net> writes
> >
> >I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
> >Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
> >found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
>
> Ever find any of the Heterodyne Boys books? Especially the Big Book of
> Fun Projects? I so want that book... Build your own Suspension Bridge,
> your own Tree House, your own PWR...
I'd like to find "Build your own Hive Engine".
Robert Sneddon
<aus...@well.com> writes
>Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> Ever find any of the Heterodyne Boys books? Especially the Big Book of
>> Fun Projects? I so want that book... Build your own Suspension Bridge,
>> your own Tree House, your own PWR...
>
>I'd like to find "Build your own Hive Engine".
You'll have to ask Ottar, sorry, The Other for the technical manuals
for that little biohazard-in-a-jar.
Jordin Kare
> In article <1fo0oki.1f9n57xigsfuzN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, Jordin Kare
> <jtk...@attglobal.net> writes
> >
> >I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
> >Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
> >found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
>
> Ever find any of the Heterodyne Boys books? Especially the Big Book of
> Fun Projects? I so want that book... Build your own Suspension Bridge,
> your own Tree House, your own PWR...
No (though I love the comic), but if you don't have _Science Made
Stupid_, you should find a copy; among other things, it does include a
section on building your own nuclear reactor out of a plastic garbage
can ("Be safe! Wear gardening gloves when handling U-235!")
Jordin Kare
Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
anything about it.
Marcus L. Rowland
<ast...@nyx10.nyx.net> writes
>
>When my son was of a reading-to age (well, actually he still is; I
>fairly recently read Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat to him), we
>read almost all of the Danny Dunns.
Reminds me to ask something; I recently picked up a copy of the
illustrated 2nd edition of Three Men in a Boat - while there are several
versions of the book on-line I haven't noticed any with illustrations,
and I think it would be nice to put them on my web page. Before I start
scanning, is there one anywhere that I've missed?
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/
http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
"Life is chaos; Chaos is life; Control is an illusion." - Andromeda
Cally Soukup
The image of the soft drink bottle freezing in _Danny Dunn and the
Weather Machine_ has stuck with me for decades.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Kip Williams
> Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
> bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
> anything about it.
If it's the one I recall, a protagonist (called Little John?) more
or less finds himself 'here' with no memories. Or maybe that was two
other books. That help?
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!" --Kodos
Kip Williams
> James J. Walton <jjwa...@telerama.com> wrote in article <20021230171833...@pong.telerama.com>:
>>Danny Dunn!
>>Someone else has read those?
>>Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
>>Don't think I ever found all of them.
>
> The image of the soft drink bottle freezing in _Danny Dunn and the
> Weather Machine_ has stuck with me for decades.
I encountered Danny Dunn in _Children's Digest_, but I don't recall
reading any on their own.
On the other hand, _The Mad Scientist's Club_ has a permanent place
in my heart. Those guys acted like fans.
Dave Weingart
>Danny Dunn!
>Someone else has read those?
>Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
>Don't think I ever found all of them.
I rather liked Danny Dunn and the Antigravity Paint. That and Danny
Dunn on the Ocean floor.
<farber>
A quick googling finds a good list of the books here
http://unofficial.umkc.edu/crossonm/dannydunn.htm
</farber>
Scary, I can remember most of them.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Quinze Filk Festival (15th UK Filkcon)
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Feb 7-9,2003, Ipswich, England
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux http://www.contabile.org.uk/
ICQ 57055207 qui...@contabile.org.uk
Adam E. Ek
jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin Kare) wrote:
> Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>
> > But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
> > which are two of my early favorites.
>
> Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
> bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
> anything about it.
_The Forgotten Door_ was the first science fiction book that I ever
read. :)
I discovered it in my 5th grade classroom library and read it many times
after I'd worked my way through the rest of the collection.
--
Adam Ek
ada...@mac.com
James J. Walton
On 30 Dec 2002, Cally Soukup wrote:
> James J. Walton <jjwa...@telerama.com> wrote in article <20021230171833...@pong.telerama.com>:
>
>
> > On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Ed Dravecky III wrote:
>
> >> Ooh, now I have to see if my old school library still has their
> >> near-complete collection of Danny Dunn adventures. Good stuff.
>
>
> > Danny Dunn!
> > Someone else has read those?
> > Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
> > Don't think I ever found all of them.
>
> The image of the soft drink bottle freezing in _Danny Dunn and the
> Weather Machine_ has stuck with me for decades.
I also enjoyed _Danny Dunn and the Anti-Gravity Paint_.
Beth Friedman
Kare), <1fo0v7f.1zsqp1ojyggnN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:50:27 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin
>> Kare), <1fo0oki.1f9n57xigsfuzN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>>
>> >I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
>> >Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
>> >found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
>>
>> I'm still missing one of the Mushroom Planet books -- either the
>> fourth or fifth one.
I checked; it's _A Mystery for Mr. Bass_ that's missing.
>> But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
>> which are two of my early favorites.
>
>Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for?
Possibly not, if it's not a childhood favorite. It's by Oliver
Butterworth, who's better known for _The Enormous Egg_, and it's about
a girl who develops telepathy and uses it to cheat at various
game-show-type endeavors in an effort to save a land from
exploitation.
>_The Forgotten Door_ rings a
>bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
>anything about it.
It was the first SF book I can remember reading, back in third grade.
It's by Alexander Key (probably better known for the Witch Mountain
books), and it's about a boy from a more advanced civilization who
falls to Earth through a hole in space, and has to find his way home.
It was my first experience with sense of wonder, and even though it's
a bit heavy-handed, I love it.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Andrew Plotkin
> Jordin Kare wrote:
>> Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
>> bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
>> anything about it.
> If it's the one I recall, a protagonist (called Little John?) more
> or less finds himself 'here' with no memories. Or maybe that was two
> other books. That help?
_The Forgotten Door_ was by Alexander Keys, and your description
matches. The guy is from a parallel universe. I think he's telepathic.
Don't remember much more than that.
I haven't read _The Trouble With Jenny's Ear_... wait, unless it's the
one about a kid whose little sister develops telepathy? (She just
thinks she can hear people whispering, thus "ear trouble".)
The family immediately sets the little girl up for a lifetime of
travelling around, winning quiz shows, getting rich, and being utterly
miserable. At the end she either blocks off the ability, or pretends
to, in order to escape this fate -- I can't remember which.
You are entirely right about the Mad Scientist's Club.
Andrew Plotkin
> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:03:35 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin
> Kare), <1fo0v7f.1zsqp1ojyggnN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>>
>>Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for?
> Possibly not, if it's not a childhood favorite. It's by Oliver
> Butterworth, who's better known for _The Enormous Egg_, and it's about
> a girl who develops telepathy and uses it to cheat at various
> game-show-type endeavors in an effort to save a land from
> exploitation.
Ha. Right book, and I apparently didn't have all the details right.
>>_The Forgotten Door_ rings a
>>bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
>>anything about it.
> It was the first SF book I can remember reading, back in third grade.
> It's by Alexander Key (probably better known for the Witch Mountain
> books), and it's about a boy from a more advanced civilization who
> falls to Earth through a hole in space, and has to find his way home.
> It was my first experience with sense of wonder, and even though it's
> a bit heavy-handed, I love it.
My first SF novels were a series of *very* for-kids stories by Bamman,
Odell, and Whitehead. I believe I was five. The all-time classic was
the crew who crash-landed on Juno, in a sea of breathable liquid, and
had to hike to the shore through dangers unknown... the guy who
accidentally got magnetized was great. (They used him to fire steel
ball-bearings at carnivorous fish.)
I now own two of the books, but unfortunately they're not two of the
ones I remember reading.
Also in that era, I got hooked on _Trapped in Space_ by Jack
Williamson. (Possibly also published as _Topaz_.) But the copy I found
was only the second half of the book -- so that's the version I liked!
When I later found a complete copy, I would start reading halfway in.
(At the exciting "meteor punctures the hull" scene.)
Beth Friedman
<erky...@eblong.com>, <ausguj$81s$2...@reader1.panix.com>, wrote:
>I haven't read _The Trouble With Jenny's Ear_... wait, unless it's the
>one about a kid whose little sister develops telepathy? (She just
>thinks she can hear people whispering, thus "ear trouble".)
>
>The family immediately sets the little girl up for a lifetime of
>travelling around, winning quiz shows, getting rich, and being utterly
>miserable. At the end she either blocks off the ability, or pretends
>to, in order to escape this fate -- I can't remember which.
Yep, that's the one.
For many years, I thought the title was _Jenny and her Listening Ear_,
which made it much harder for librarians to have any success in
tracking it down for me. Then one day I found it in a library book
sale, and pounced.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:03:35 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin
>Kare), <1fo0v7f.1zsqp1ojyggnN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>
>>Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:50:27 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin
>>> Kare), <1fo0oki.1f9n57xigsfuzN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>>>
>>> >I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
>>> >Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
>>> >found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
>>>
>>> I'm still missing one of the Mushroom Planet books -- either the
>>> fourth or fifth one.
>
>I checked; it's _A Mystery for Mr. Bass_ that's missing.
Our daughter's favorite, the one where Ta comes to earth. I hauled
our copy along on a camping trip and it got us up and down a mountain
together last summer. We read during the rests.
I had to grow up to get the joke of little green men, though.
I wish whoever owns the rights would get the whole series reprinted.
The first two are easily available but the rest tend to be overly
expensive. ABEbooks lists 15 of MYSTERY available, lowest price is
$75 for ex-lib. You can find cheaper eventually but it's a hunt.
>
>>> But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
>>> which are two of my early favorites.
>>
>>Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for?
>
>Possibly not, if it's not a childhood favorite. It's by Oliver
>Butterworth, who's better known for _The Enormous Egg_, and it's about
>a girl who develops telepathy and uses it to cheat at various
>game-show-type endeavors in an effort to save a land from
>exploitation.
I read it recently, it's ok. Did you know Butterworth wrote a second
book about Nate Twitchell, the kid with the enormous egg? It's called
THE NARROW PASSAGE. It's not as good but I'm glad I read it once. He
sends Nate to France where Nate meets a caveman.
>
>>_The Forgotten Door_ rings a
>>bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
>>anything about it.
>
>It was the first SF book I can remember reading, back in third grade.
>It's by Alexander Key
And is in print, I picked up a pb recently at Borders.
(probably better known for the Witch Mountain
>books), and it's about a boy from a more advanced civilization who
>falls to Earth through a hole in space, and has to find his way home.
>It was my first experience with sense of wonder, and even though it's
>a bit heavy-handed, I love it.
Definitely heavy-handed, but enjoyable.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Beth Friedman
<erky...@eblong.com>, <aushdh$81s$3...@reader1.panix.com>, wrote:
>Here, Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:03:35 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin
>> Kare), <1fo0v7f.1zsqp1ojyggnN%jtk...@attglobal.net>, wrote:
>
>>>Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for?
>
>> Possibly not, if it's not a childhood favorite. It's by Oliver
>> Butterworth, who's better known for _The Enormous Egg_, and it's about
>> a girl who develops telepathy and uses it to cheat at various
>> game-show-type endeavors in an effort to save a land from
>> exploitation.
>
>Ha. Right book, and I apparently didn't have all the details right.
Well, in my details, "a land" should have been "a piece of land." The
unimproved land that they'd played on all their lives turned out to be
actually owned by someone, and that someone wanted to build
condominiums or some such.
>My first SF novels were a series of *very* for-kids stories by Bamman,
>Odell, and Whitehead. I believe I was five. The all-time classic was
>the crew who crash-landed on Juno, in a sea of breathable liquid, and
>had to hike to the shore through dangers unknown... the guy who
>accidentally got magnetized was great. (They used him to fire steel
>ball-bearings at carnivorous fish.)
Sounds about on the level with _Teen-Age Science Fiction Stories_ by
Richard Elam, which I found at a Brandeis book sale just about the
time I was starting to be aware of SF as a genre -- sixth grade,
maybe. Most of the stories took place in the Solar System, but the
last story was about a trip to Alpha Centauri (well, a planet in the
system). Took four years to get there, and they spent just a few
days, then took off for the return trip.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Christopher P. Winter
("David G. Bell") wrote (in part):
>
>Now, there's a lot of things around the exorcism which still don't look
>right, but the whole scene does look a little like a Hong Kong movie in
>its style: both the magic and the way that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
>deal with the thugs. Jackie Chan as Legolas? Well, there're moments
>scattered all through the film that could call up that image.
>
>It does make me wonder a little if RotK will come out with hints of
>another style of movie.
Crouching Wizard, Hidden Hobbit? ;-)
Heather Jones
> > But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
> > which are two of my early favorites.
>
> Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
> bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
> anything about it.
Would that be the Alexander Key book of that title? (Same author
as wrote the "Witch Mountain" books that Disney movified.)
That's one of the books that got me in trouble in grade school.
(Some books I kind of disappeared into during "free reading time"
and failed to notice that we were supposed to be doing other
things now.)
Heather
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Kip Williams
> On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:09:19 -0600, Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com>
> wrote:
>>Possibly not, if it's not a childhood favorite. It's by Oliver
>>Butterworth, who's better known for _The Enormous Egg_, and it's about
>>a girl who develops telepathy and uses it to cheat at various
>>game-show-type endeavors in an effort to save a land from
>>exploitation.
>
> I read it recently, it's ok. Did you know Butterworth wrote a second
> book about Nate Twitchell, the kid with the enormous egg? It's called
> THE NARROW PASSAGE. It's not as good but I'm glad I read it once. He
> sends Nate to France where Nate meets a caveman.
Then there was the third book, about the chicken with the pained
expression.
(I keep pitchin' em...)
Christopher P. Winter
wrote:
>John Lorentz <jlor...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:10:29 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin Kare)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In one of the YA space-adventure series from my childhood (not Tom
>> >Corbett, but I can't think of it and the books are down in California)
>> >the authors seemed to have listened to the advice in The Graduate and
>> >made everything out of plastic: Plassteel, plastiglass, etc.
>>
>> Sounds a whole lot like the Tom Swift, Jr. books from the late 50s to
>> the early 70s. (Mine are upstairs--well, all but # 34, which I've
>> never found.)
>
>No, it wasn't the TS Jr. books, although I did read those and have most
>of them (along with a handful of the original Tom Swift series).
>
>I think it was "Digby Allen, Space Explorer" Standard 50's SF
>universe, with both Mars and Venus inhabited, and nuclear rocket ships
>flown by clean-cut youths. I still remember a scene where their ship
>has been crippled by the bad guys cutting the main control cable and
>leaving them to fall into the Sun, and the Venusian or Mercurian or
>whatever that they've recently rescued saves them by using its multitude
>of tiny digits to sort through the thousands of color coded wires and
>find the ones that control the engines, so they can jury-rig a control
>board...
>
>They just don't write 'em like that any more.
I have a vision of Data sorting and replacing isolinear chips... <g>
Christopher P. Winter
wrote:
>James J. Walton <jjwa...@telerama.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Ed Dravecky III wrote:
>>
>> > Ooh, now I have to see if my old school library still has their
>> > near-complete collection of Danny Dunn adventures. Good stuff.
>>
>>
>> Danny Dunn!
>> Someone else has read those?
>
>Ohh, yes.
>
>> Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine was one of my favorites!
>> Don't think I ever found all of them.
>
>I've never hunted for the Danny Dunns. But I do keep an eye out for the
>Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books, and a couple years ago I
>found a copy of "Three Boys and a Time Machine." Ah, memories of youth.
I recall that Boys' Life, the Scouting magazine, ran science fiction
from time to time. "Dr. Binder and the Solid Vacuum" comes to mind.
Beth Friedman
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu>,
<3E11E95A...@socrates.berkeley.edu>, wrote:
>Jordin Kare wrote:
>>
>> Beth Friedman <b...@wavefront.com> wrote:
>
>> > But I have _The Trouble with Jenny's Ear_ and _The Forgotten Door_,
>> > which are two of my early favorites.
>>
>> Hmm, don't know TTwJE. Worth hunting for? _The Forgotten Door_ rings a
>> bell (a forgotten doorbell?) but for the life of me I can't remember
>> anything about it.
>
>Would that be the Alexander Key book of that title? (Same author
>as wrote the "Witch Mountain" books that Disney movified.)
Yep, that's the one.
>That's one of the books that got me in trouble in grade school.
>(Some books I kind of disappeared into during "free reading time"
>and failed to notice that we were supposed to be doing other
>things now.)
Many, many books got me in trouble in grade school. They were just so
much more interesting.
--
Beth Friedman
b...@wavefront.com
Kip Williams
> I recall that Boys' Life, the Scouting magazine, ran science fiction
> from time to time. "Dr. Binder and the Solid Vacuum" comes to mind.
They ran (some? all?) of the Mad Scientist Club stories, too. They
had "Space Conquerors" in the comics page, as well as Rocky
Stoneaxe, come to think. (And chess columns allegedly by Bobby
Fischer, not that they are relevant here.)
Marilee J. Layman
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:50:27 -0800, jtk...@attglobal.net (Jordin Kare)
>wrote:
>
>>But I do keep an eye out for the
>>Elizabeth Cameron "Mushroom Planet" books
>
>I have an extra, new, of the first book of this series in case anybody
>needs it.
And Jordin has claimed it.
Ed Dravecky III
> <farber>
> A quick googling finds a good list of the books here
> http://unofficial.umkc.edu/crossonm/dannydunn.htm
> </farber>
>
> Scary, I can remember most of them.
Wow! I can remember most of them but not the last two or three.
The copyright dates suggest I might have moved on to middle
school by the time my elementary school library would have
acquired books #13 and #14. I _was_ gone when #15 came out.
Okay, now I have something new to look for at Half Price Books.
--
Ed Dravecky III - Addison, Texas
Happy New Year, if that's okay.
Miche
Danny Low <dann...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2002 15:29:44 +0200, "Aris Katsaris"
> <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> >No, it's not. Or are you going to claim that dinosaurs (or oliphaunts
> >or the Nazgul-beasts) are magical also, simply because they no
> >longer exist?
>
> I was not aware that Tolkien had dinosaurs in Middle Earth. Mixing up
> Earth and Middle Earth is very poor argument.
Middle-Earth IS Earth. In a time before human memory.
Miche
--
So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered
by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm
going to brush its teeth. So there.
-- Rob Landley
Danny Low
wrote:
>Middle-Earth IS Earth. In a time before human memory.
In an alternate universe but not in ours as the books were intended to
give England a cultural history it never had.
Danny
Don't question authority. What makes you think they
know anything?
Colette Reap
>On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:16:11 +1300, Miche <mich...@myrealbox.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Middle-Earth IS Earth. In a time before human memory.
>
>In an alternate universe but not in ours as the books were intended to
>give England a cultural history it never had.
>
Not a cultural history, a mythology. There is a difference.
--
Colette
Nels E Satterlund
>
> Christopher P. Winter wrote:
> > I recall that Boys' Life, the Scouting magazine, ran science fiction
> > from time to time. "Dr. Binder and the Solid Vacuum" comes to mind.
>
> They ran (some? all?) of the Mad Scientist Club stories, too. They
> had "Space Conquerors" in the comics page, as well as Rocky
> Stoneaxe, come to think. (And chess columns allegedly by Bobby
> Fischer, not that they are relevant here.)
That reminds me somewhere I have a folder full of clipping from Boys
Life of their SF stories. (Space Scouts?)
Nels
Running a bunch behind but better late than never, I guess
--
Nels E Satterlund I don't speak for the company, specially here
Ne...@Starstream.net <-- Use this address for personal Email
My Lurkers motto: I read much better and faster, than I type.
Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey
> Kip Williams wrote:
> >
> > Christopher P. Winter wrote:
> > > I recall that Boys' Life, the Scouting magazine, ran science fiction
> > > from time to time. "Dr. Binder and the Solid Vacuum" comes to mind.
> >
> > They ran (some? all?) of the Mad Scientist Club stories, too. They
> > had "Space Conquerors" in the comics page, as well as Rocky
> > Stoneaxe, come to think. (And chess columns allegedly by Bobby
> > Fischer, not that they are relevant here.)
>
> That reminds me somewhere I have a folder full of clipping from Boys
> Life of their SF stories. (Space Scouts?)
Several Heinlein stories, including *Farmer in the Sky* and *The Rolling
Stones*, first saw print in the pages of *Boy's Life*.
That was before my time-- while I was reading it, some of "Donald Keith's"
stories of the Time Machine appeared. I really enjoyed those. A Boy Scout
patrol finds an abandoned Time Machine in the wilderness; the Smart Kid
figures out the controls and they roar off to adventure, acquiring Spartan
and Future patrol members along the way.
I particularly liked the Machine, a luxurious saucer-shaped model with
forward and backward gears and a handy time-viewer screen.
There must have been more than a dozen or more stories, including two that
appeared as novels. Somebody oughta collect the rest.
Say-- Ghugle tells me I have written about this a decade ago. I'll append
the posting; it's a glimpse into the days before search engines, when we
had to rely on a few reference books and some wobbly neurons to remember
things. In the snow. Both ways.
Bill Higgins
hig...@fnal.gov
============
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey (higgins@[INVALID ADDRESS])
Subject: Boy Scout Time Machine (was Re: SF for kids and teens?)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: 1992-11-25 18:48:12 PST
In article <1992Nov25...@skcla.monsanto.com>, jjf...@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
> And now for a query: Years ago, as a Boy Sprout^H^H^H^H^Hcout I read a series
> of short stories in Boys' Life magazine, about some kids who discover a time
> machine, and collect other kids from across time, including a Spartan boy, and
> someone named Kaybee Tentroy, from the far future. The stories were extremely
> entertaining, and I even think I found a collection of them once in my hometown
> library, somewhere in the middle of the alphabet :) Any clues here for author
> and/or titles? Issues of Boys' Life?
Early Sixties, maybe late Fifties. The stories were by "Donald
Keith;" seems I read somewhere that that was a pseudonym. Check the
Nichols encyclopedia.
There was at least one long Time Machine serial published as a
hardcover novel. (Memory tells me there were *two* books, but the
picture is cloudy.)
The Time Machine itself was quite powerful, if not quite
user-friendly. You could set the controls for any point in space and
time, it was built to survive even in outer space, and it featured a
time-viewer so you could study history or the future.
Boy, I wanted one of these so badly I could taste it.
(Using the time-viewer could be dangerous, though. On some occasions
Brains Baynes would be watching some horrible scene from history, then
somebody would trip and fall on the gearshift knob and the Scouts
would find themselves in the middle of trouble...)
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