Wants to design - Part Deux!
Adrian
Last week I posted the following in the rec-games-int-fiction
newsgroup:
"I've been playing IF games on and off since the Scott Adam's
adventures were available on the Apple ][ and have always wanted to
write my own. I'd like to know if anyone has any suggestions on what I
should use to get started. Bear in mind that the last book on
programming I read was "I Speak Basic to my Apple" way back in
who-knows-when. ANY information would be helpful."
The response was swift, wonderful and as expected...contradictory.
A few people suggested that I read the "Which System is Better?" FAQ and
I have. Of course, now I am even more confused.
I realize that to even attempt to write IF is going to require an intense
study of programming , not only in the language I choose to use but also
in examples of what other people have done with the same language. But
before I do that, maybe a few of you could help out.
I'd like to hear your experiences with using different systems. Which
gave you the most freedom? Which was the easiest to use? Was there
difficulty in switching from one system to another or were there basic
similarities that carried over?
Right now I'm reading the manual for ALAN and AGT just to get started and
I'd like to hear about experiences with these systems.
I realize the major contention here is that you HAVE to use either TADS
or Inform to be a serious IF writer but there is something oddly
appealing about going with what might be considered the "underdog".
Thanks in advance for all your assistance.
Adrian
Adrian
Dan Shiovitz
In article <31BEDA...@skyweb.net>, Adrian <adr...@skyweb.net> wrote:
>Last week I posted the following in the rec-games-int-fiction
>newsgroup:
write a poif. Naturally, he is a bit flustered and confused]
[..]
>A few people suggested that I read the "Which System is Better?" FAQ and
>I have. Of course, now I am even more confused.
>I realize that to even attempt to write IF is going to require an intense
>study of programming , not only in the language I choose to use but also
>Right now I'm reading the manual for ALAN and AGT just to get started and
>I'd like to hear about experiences with these systems.
>I realize the major contention here is that you HAVE to use either TADS
>or Inform to be a serious IF writer but there is something oddly
>appealing about going with what might be considered the "underdog".
Mmm. It's not quite that simple. The fact is, TADS and Inform are
clearly superior to AGT (ALAN is rather a different matter). The only
advantage AGT has is that it's a bit easier to get started with. However,
if you're going to do anything remotely fancy, it will be much easier
if you are using TADS or Inform (or, for that matter, Hugo or ALAN).
As for picking between the non-AGT systems .. well, I'm sure you'll find
advocates for any of them. I, personally, program in TADS, partially
because that's what I started with, and partially because I like its
feel better than the others.
Just due to number of users and age of language, you're most likely to
have the greatest number of people willing to help if you go with TADS or
Inform, but there's still enough people using Hugo and ALAN that that
shouldn't be a problem either. With code samples, Inform and TADS again
have the advantage due to age and so on, but this presumably will change
as time goes on.
Despite how this group tends to make it sound, the language that you
program in doesn't make this big a difference*. The most important
differences are caused by the creativity and ability of the author, which
we haven't figured out how to have the computer help with yet ;P
*To a certain extent. There's very little difference, relatively, between
TADS games and Inform games and so on. They're all at more-or-less the
same level. But you'd notice a difference between an AGT game and an
Inform game. The parser is more sophisticated, the library of default
commands is more sophisticated, etc.
>Adrian
--
dan shiovitz scy...@u.washington.edu sh...@cs.washington.edu
slightly lost author/programmer in a world of more creative or more sensible
people ... remember to speak up for freedom because no one else will do it
for you: use it or lose it ... carpe diem -- be proactive.
my web site: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scythe/home.html some ok stuff.
Nulldogma
I've never tried any system other than TADS, but as I e-mailed you
earlier, I didn't find it too taxing to learn. (Time-consuming, yes, but I
was able to pick it up fairly painlessly piece-by-piece, by reading the
manual, looking through ADV.T and TADSVER, and checking out other people's
code.)
And as for the TADS/Inform axis, the biggest issue for me is that, unless
I'm mistaken, if you write your game with any system other than those two
I won't be able to play it on my Mac.
Neil
ada...@in.net
I myself have felt the appeal of using the "underdog," but the popularity
of AGT and TADS is largely due to the fact that they are both excellent,
flexible, widely ported systems. I used to use AGT, and you _can_ do some
pretty neat stuff with it -- it's just a major pain in the arse to do so. The
system has some horrible restrictions, and you'll spend a lot of your time
working around them. It's also only supported for DOS; older versions will
supposedly run on the Amiga and Mac, but I've never been able to get the Mac
version to work.
While I don't have as much experience with ALAN, it appears to be a very
nice, efficient, and easy-to-use system. It's also been ported extensively;
it'll even run on the Mac! <G> If you're not going to use Inform/TADS, and you
want people on more than one platform to be able to use your game, I'd say
ALAN's your best bet. However, having gone from no experience --> AGT -->
TADS, I don't believe TADS is that difficult. It just sort of "clicked" for
me, in a way that Inform didn't.
So, I'd expand your choices to TADS/Inform/ALAN; you should use whatever
you want to, of course, but I wouldn't be able to recommend other systems as
strongly. I have little experience with Hugo; it also appears quite strong,
but as of yet does not have the range of platforms available to the other
three. Out of curiosity, what platform are you using for development?
Adam Ploshay
ada...@in.net
http://www.in.net/~adamplo/index.html
"When you're killed, you've lost an important part of your life." --Brooke Shields
Allison Weaver
From a thread begun by Adrian...
On Thu, 13 Jun 1996 ada...@in.net wrote:
> While I don't have as much experience with ALAN, it appears to be a very
> nice, efficient, and easy-to-use system. It's also been ported extensively;
> it'll even run on the Mac! <G> If you're not going to use Inform/TADS, and you
> want people on more than one platform to be able to use your game, I'd say
> ALAN's your best bet...
ALAN was the first compiler I actually tried to use for authoring a game.
I liked what I saw very much and intend to go back to it in the near
future. The only reason I temporarily abandoned it was due to the
requirements of the game I am porting. It required the use of arrays and
a few other programming type things that ALAN did not have since it is
aimed at the nonprogrammer.
> So, I'd expand your choices to TADS/Inform/ALAN; you should use whatever
> you want to, of course, but I wouldn't be able to recommend other systems as
> strongly. I have little experience with Hugo; it also appears quite strong,
> but as of yet does not have the range of platforms available to the other
> three. Out of curiosity, what platform are you using for development?
Hugo is the compiler I moved to when I had to leave ALAN. I have been
very pleased with what I could do in Hugo, but I am a programmer by trade
so I don't have a good feel for how easy it would be for a nonprogrammer.
I can say that Kent Tessman does a wonderful job of answering questions --
stupid or otherwise. He has helped me when I asked, and pointed out
problems even when I didn't ask. (Thanks again, Kent!).
Your only problems with these two compilers is that there are fewer of us
using them currently. Or if you're on a Mac, Hugo is not yet available
(is that still true, Kent or Cardinal?).
If you have the time, try several with a small bit of code and see which
clicks with you. My long term plans are to try all four. I really think
I've seen several people (Whizzard and Magnus, maybe?) say that they use a
different compiler depending on what they want to do. Whichever you
decide to try, there's a user base out here in this group that is always
ready to answer questions, debate concepts, etc.
Welcome to the group, Adrian.
Allison
Andrew C. Plotkin
Allison Weaver <awe...@nova.umuc.edu> writes:
> Your only problems with these two compilers is that there are fewer of us
> using them currently. Or if you're on a Mac, Hugo is not yet available
> (is that still true, Kent or Cardinal?).
I tried to do a naive port of the Hugo runtime to the Mac (just
terminal window stuff, nothing like MaxZip.) I gave up after a few
hours. There was no documentation on what the hell I was doing, and I
didn't feel like osmoting the source code long enough to figure it all
out.
If someone tells me that there will be a Hugo entry in this year's
competition, I may try again. (But I won't guarantee that I won't give
up again.)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
David Kinder
Andrew C. Plotkin (erky...@CMU.EDU) wrote:
: I tried to do a naive port of the Hugo runtime to the Mac (just
: terminal window stuff, nothing like MaxZip.) I gave up after a few
: hours. There was no documentation on what the hell I was doing, and I
: didn't feel like osmoting the source code long enough to figure it all
: out.
: If someone tells me that there will be a Hugo entry in this year's
: competition, I may try again. (But I won't guarantee that I won't give
: up again.)
If you get stuck again let me know and I'll try to help, as in doing the
Amiga version I've probably gone through the same problems as you'd have
doing a Mac version.
David
Stephen Griffiths
Adrian <adr...@skyweb.net> wrote:
[snip]
>I'd like to hear your experiences with using different systems. Which
>gave you the most freedom? Which was the easiest to use? Was there
>difficulty in switching from one system to another or were there basic
>similarities that carried over?
>
>Right now I'm reading the manual for ALAN and AGT just to get started and
>I'd like to hear about experiences with these systems.
If you're starting out writing interactive fiction and tossing up between
using AGT and Alan, I would recommend Alan.
I started using AGT years ago. I found it easy and fun to use until I
wanted to do complicated stuff. The problem wasn't so much that you
couldn't do complicated things just that it was difficult to keep
track of things. Recently I've been trying Alan but due to a shortage of
spare time haven't attempted anything too complicated. I've found it easy
and fun to use too. From my limited experience I think it will be much
better than AGT when I get around to 'complicated stuff.'
Alan is a contemporary system so it has other advantages over AGT :
a) its still supported by the authors of the system
b) future releases and upgrades with new features are likely
c) you're more likely to find other rec.arts.int-fiction users
currently writing in Alan
d) if, in the long term, you do find that Alan is an unsuitable IF
authoring system, you'll find your Alan experience is more applicable to
the other contemporary authoring systems
>I realize the major contention here is that you HAVE to use either TADS
>or Inform to be a serious IF writer but there is something oddly
>appealing about going with what might be considered the "underdog".
The number of raif postings about TADS and Inform may give the impression
that they are the only 'serious' IF systems. However, I think that
well-written IF will be recognised no matter which IF authoring system was
used to create it.
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <4q4l6j$d...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>,
Stephen Griffiths <stev...@moc.govt.nz> wrote:
}The number of raif postings about TADS and Inform may give the impression
}that they are the only 'serious' IF systems. However, I think that
}well-written IF will be recognised no matter which IF authoring system was
}used to create it.
Only by those who can use the resulting games. Those of us not in the PC
world tend to ignore the Spellcasting series, Shades of Gray,
Cosmoserve, etc.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com russ...@his.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Greg Ewing
Stephen Griffiths wrote:
>
> I would recommend Alan.
I second that. I think you'll find Alan very easy to get
started with, as it makes the basic stuff very straightforward.
It will also get you used to the style of programming required
for IF.
When you start to find Alan too restrictive, move on to
Inform or Tads (or perhaps Hugo, although I don't know
enough about it to know whether to recommend it).
Greg
Stephen Griffiths
russ...@wanda.phl.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
>In article <4q4l6j$d...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>,
>Stephen Griffiths <stev...@moc.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>}The number of raif postings about TADS and Inform may give the impression
>}that they are the only 'serious' IF systems. However, I think that
>}well-written IF will be recognised no matter which IF authoring system was
>}used to create it.
>
>Only by those who can use the resulting games. Those of us not in the PC
>world tend to ignore the Spellcasting series, Shades of Gray,
>Cosmoserve, etc.
>--
Cosmoserve and Shades of Gray were written in AGT. So those two can only
be played on systems for which ports of AGT exist. I don't know about the
Spellcasting series. Are they also written in AGT?